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Scottish Independence Campaign Battles Over BBC Weather Forecast
00_NOP writes "The political battle over Scotland's independence ballot — to take place in September this year — has now moved on to how the BBC project the UK on their national weather forecast. The BBC use a projection based on the view of Britain from geostationary weather satellites and so there is naturally some foreshortening at the northern end of Britain (Scotland, in other words). But nationalist campaigners say this means Scottish viewers are constantly being shown a distorted image of their country which makes it look smaller and hence (in their view) less able to support independence. In response others have suggested that the nationalists are truly 'flat earthers.'"
Jings, crivens and helpmaboab!
Will there be a referendum about beta, d'ye ken?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"Would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR MERCATOR PROJECTION!"
If you're trying to drum up some support, slightly wacky points of view can sometimes help, but when you're looking for majority support, you have to avoid looking petty or eccentric.
This is an interesting point actually. Different map projections really do affect the way countries (and especially big countries) look like on the map.
Whether this should have an impact on how the Scottish view their potential independence I don't know....
They're everywhere the same. They have this ridiculous niotion that a border reinstated not very long ago makes the people on both sides in any way different.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
Independence is a big word, Sovereignty is perhaps a bit better.
If they would achieve that, they would be outside the EU as well, because GB, Spain, France an a few others would veto it.
They are too afraid it would encourage their own Nationalist Basques, Catalans, Corse an so on.
Yes, they changed the projection in around 2005. The new format did indeed suck - take a look at the 'this is how weather maps look now' image on this page. It was a triumph of 3D prettiness over usability and produced wonderfully unhelpful graphics like this and there was a lot of sulking over it, not so much because of nationalist fervour, but more because it was crap. The BBC themselves claim they had 16,000 complaints. So they tweaked it, significantly.
It's a shame that the BBC's obsession with shiny things produced a weather forecast that sucked, and it is indeed quite possible that they didn't recognise how much it sucked because of inner-M25 London myopia, although if so the joke's on them because a significant proportion of BBC staff were moved to Manchester fairly shortly thereafter. Since the BBC produces a lot of things that are shiny but happen to suck it doesn't seem necessary to attribute the weather forecast to a subconscious urge to portray Scotland as negligible. Occam's razor suggests that the simpler explanation might be that whoever outsourced the weather forecasting isn't half as smart as they think they are.
Map Projections - the solutions to the problem of representing the spheroid Earth on a 2-D map. I didn't hear about the political side effects of common projections like the Mercator until it was briefly mentioned on the West Wing, where the Peters Projection was suggested as being a better alternative.
Clip:
http://odtmaps.com/what_they_are_saying/west-wing.asp
If Scots think Scotland is a bit small to be functionally viable, then maybe they shouldn't be looking at independence then. These people are idiots.
The whole of the UK is enlarged on almost every map and thus is not in scale with the rest of Europe. My main point though is, who the hell cares?
They can distort their maps, but they cannot take their FREEEDOM!
Just goes to show how British the whole affair is. *sips tea*
-- "Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability." --Dijkstra
This is the Scottish version of "black holes are racist" and the illogic of it makes my skin crawl.
then stop supporting the criminal stone age institution otherwise known as the TV License. That shit needs to go anyway.
When it comes to national forecasts London isn't interested in anything north of Watford.
Scotland is a tiny country smaller in area than South Carolina or French Guiana.
Och, Alex, I've got it at last! We can win this thing. Those English bastards think we're a wee bit nuts right? So all we need to do is make them thing we're as mad as a nessie with a haggis on its head, and they'll pop over the border from Carlisle to Gretna Green to vote us independent. Och, we're Scotland after all; where the men wear nothing under their kilts and the fields are thick with thistles. They'll fall for it in no time.
This would not be the first time distorted maps have been used for a political purpose. There is no reason use the Mercator projection on world maps except to make the northern hemisphere countries look much larger than those in Africa and South America near the equator. (Hint: Africa is enormous but is often shown as smaller than North America)
"He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
Our (major brand) beers do NOT taste horrible. That implies they have taste.
That's why the micro-breweries sprang up.
Manky scots git!
I am aware that no matter what, this is NOT a technical problem. It is a social one. Even if they somehow found a way, the people moaning now will find something else. They will keep moaning even after they would get what they asked for.
That said, looking at the technical side, what do they use as starting point from where the UKandNI are vieuwed from? Is this the equator as many maps are made that way? What if they would use the middle of UKandNI as a point from where people look. That would mean much less distortion and equal distortion to the north as to the south.
If they are already are doing that, it just shows that it is a social problem and not a technical one.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
This is clearly completely political with the timing and all that but as someone living in Finland I am used to being cut off most of the maps and to be honest it did annoy me quite a bit. For instance still 10 years ago the BBC world weather would basically go over the whole world, including tiny islands in the pacific, but the map of Europe would be cut so the southmost, less than 10% part of Finland would be shown. It was very inconvenient from time to time to live in the only part of the whole world in addition to the north pole not included in the global weather forecasts. Of course there were ways to get the more local ones so it wasn't like I couldn't get the current weather even while abroad.
Since then things have improved, now the standard is to show just about half of the country on the "maps of Europe", which I am sure is the case for some Northern parts of Canada and Alaska for example as well.
An independent Scotland might be a colossal economic fuckup as all the jobs & money from insurance, banking, service and support industries flee south but dammit the map projections will be correct. Vote Yes in the referendum!
In New Zealand's national museum, I saw a plane world map with the standard viewpoint shifted to directly above the country. There was no distortion of the standard projection, just a shift in viewpoint that made New Zealand look much bigger and more important. On every other map, it's a tiny sliver scrunched into one corner.
...with all those Scots running around for hundreds of years achieving great scientific and economic advances leading to the greatness of the British Empire?
Any 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object will be distorted in some shape or form. Anyhow - if they are that bothered perhaps they should pop a satellite into orbit and make their own weather forecast.
This clip from The West Wing sums up map projection issues nicely: http://youtu.be/n8zBC2dvERM
Well,
it mit look like a joke or pretty braindead.
However lots of americans are convinced their country is bigger than the rest of the world together.
I guess that happens if you don't know anything about maps and the rest of the world.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
They don't pay anything if they can get away with it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I think that this best describes how the people of Scotland feel about the BBC and their weather map. http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...
It has always amused me that in England the railways were known as British Rail, in Scotland they were known as ScotRail.
Since privatisation they are known as National Rail - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/
And ScotRail - http://www.scotrail.co.uk/
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Being able to independantly support the cost of maintaining their own weather sats would be a great mark of their capability for independance.
Also, don't call them flat-earthers. There are a huge number of downsides to independence. If you can't alleviate them, or make the benefits worthwhile, they have every right to be reticent.
I cannot wait until London start deporting those Scottish economic Immigrants that will take our jobs.
Scotish have not really thought this through have they, they will not get Spains support to join the EU, because that risks seperatists movements in Spain getting more legitimacy.
Scots abroad will require visas and risk being deported (including other UK regions that they will now become immegrants along with other eastern european countries).
The world is flat
and that is that
To think of it as spherical
Is frankly quite hysterical.
Most of what you say is nonsense, but the main thing I'd like to pick you up on is the suggestion that SNP MPs vote on matters which only affect England. Although they could do so, for many years they've taken the decision not to.
Scottish Labour MPs however do vote on them as you say.
It may seem perfectly sensible to show a view which seems to be from a geostationary satellite, but does anyone else do so? Do Italian or Portuguese weather forecasts show the south of their countries as larger than the north?
Do Chilean or New Zealand forecasts show the view from the geostationary position to the north?
Look, I know you're trolling, but
And the Green Party
And the Scottish Socialist Party
And all the Independent MSPs
And non-party aligned groups such as http://radicalindependence.org http://www.womenforindependence.org and http://nationalcollective.com
And historically Labour-inclined groups like the Jimmy Reid Foundation
And British Airways
Actually, the only groups who don't are politicians who want to keep their Westminster gravy train and ermines (Tories by 3 different names), right wingers who prefer oil and gas revenues to paying their fair share of tax, and (oddly) the BBC.
Or, if you prefer, the old establishment, with little or no grounding in grass roots in Scotland.
Before when, pray?
Most independence supporters are republicans. Which we can do once we're free of the reactionary (Daily Heil) and inertial elements of British society, we can do something about.
That said, if Salmond were smart, his day before the referendum announcement would be his retirement on Independence Day.
Losses incurred in England, by the English subsidiaries, and normalised banking regulations across the world say that the responsibility is down to where the operations are. Which is why RBS and HBOS subsidiaries were also bailed out by the US government for the losses incurred by their American operations.
They were the policies demanded by the City of London, who stamped their little feet and threatened to leave UK's tax basen (as if they paid any). Rather than advising them not to let the door bang them on the arse on the way out, and/or offering a ride to the airport, HM Treasury dropped its trousers, turned around and bent over. This being policies which the voters of Scotland consistently say they oppose.
Personally, I think its right that Scotland gets independence for moral reasons - all those Scottish MPs (who are either Labour ot SNP) get to vote on things that only matter in the rest of the UK, so you guys gets to tell us what to do without any for of reciprocity.
Yep.You feel like that after less than 20 years of it. Now imagine 300 years of it. Where the votes of Scotland make bugger all difference to the choice of government and therefore policy (analysis of last 50 years show that maybe 2 instances where a narrow majority would be converted into a hung parliament or vice versa, including 2010).
The rotten British state has had plenty of opportunity for reform and federalism. It's happily declined it every time, including the open offer for Devolution Plus on the IndyRef ballot.
A few points of information to counter London's propaganda.
If you compare Scotland with Norway, a similar sized country, with similar natural resources, we see the scale of mismanagement by HM Treasury. I'm particularly incensed that the UK is just about the only Oil rich country without a Sovereign Wealth Fund, whereas Norway (who only started theirs in 1990) has $1trn of assets, and 1.3% of all global market capitalisation. And all that economic goodness without even being in the EU.
Actually, quite the contrary. If you see any flag wrapping going on, it'll be the Union Flag, not the Saltire. And if you hear 'braveheart' mentioned, it'll be a British Nationalist trying to create the illusion you have fallen for. It's Cameron who is trying to whip up British sentiment. Last year it was the Olympics and the Jubilee and the Royal Wedding. This year, it's celebrating (yes, celebrating. Makes me sick) the start of WWI and holding every possible military event in Scotland. Thing is, he hasn't realised that we've noticed that he's closing Scottish bases and merging regiments at the same time. I forecast a massive backfire.
The independence movement as a whole is that oddest of things: a non-nationalist independence movement.
Barruso will shut his trap once his fishermen remind him that their entire livelihood depends on access to Scottish waters.
What a load of baws, its gotta be said. This is generally the kinda blog seen by the current pro-no campaigners to ridicule the "wee hoots mon campaigners" - both sides to the debate have their fair share of nonsensical political bickering "arguments" by people who should probably know better. Now, although us Scots are not genetically programmed, or indeed, educated enough to make political decisions - a view espoused by the leader of the labour party in Scotland, and a celebrity hairdresser - I clearly don't know what I'm talking about, and we couldn't possibly see propaganda for what it is on either side of the fence (sic) - but there is a growing trend at this point, contrary to what many believe, for many of my fence sitting friends to be galvanising towards Yes simply because the No campaign, by definition, is negative. The "Better Together" campaign has in recent weeks spread clear falsehoods, along with fluffy (British) nationalisms and celebrity endorsements (David Bowie has all but killed his reputation in Scotland for inviting us to stay - but not in New York of course - expatriotism is why Shir Shean Connery doesn't get asked to Yes events even though he's a Yes-man), but without any real argument as to why things are "Better Together". The fact that this whole referendum is going to happen has not made them realise that they need to convince Scotland why it would be "Better Together" - they've tried to disassemble the "best case scenario" of the Independence White Paper, without saying anything that would, could or should change if the vote comes on as a no.
The map of the BBCs weather has more been a poster advertising the BBCs editorial bias towards a United Kingdom staying together more than a specific bone of contention in of itself. "If you wanna see how biased the BBC, just look at their map!". The BBCs reporting and event coverage tends to err on the side of Southern England. Thankfully, over the last couple of years this has been lessened, and you can actually see a marked change in attitude re: the referundum. The BBC have always had a remit of impartiality, and I can only hope this continues. I will always take their reporting with a dose of salt though.
A common argument from many of my English and Pro-No mates comes in the form of "Yeah, but do you really want that numpty Salmond in charge?" usually espousing the fellas weight or something. They never say they'd rather have Cameron or Millband, or Clegg. A Yes campaigner could do a much better job of swaying votes for No just now than the No campaign - the arguments for No stem from a misunderstanding that this is some Braveheart inspired Scotland the Brave, kilt wearing, Hielan' revolution bent on overthrowing the monarchy by people who just put on a suit after dipping the sheep and eating a deep fried Mars bar. And that's the problem Scotland has - we've this touristy image which we don't wanna ditch cos its so successful. Imagine it not as the fairy tale Kingdoms of Ye Olde Englande and Bella Caledonia, imagine not the stately homes and field of peasants wearing hair shirts. We'd have everyone else in the UK come with us in a heartbeat, cos all we really wanna divorce is Westminster and its predilection with only looking after themselves and their pals in the city. If we just annexed a four mile square in the heart of London, there wouldn't even be an issue. But if we wait for the rUK to start voting for less pricks, then things'll never change. Please my English, Welsh and Northern Irish brethren, if you're sick of them as well, come on up and vote Yes, Salmond won't be here for long.
Tribalism, look it up! When will humans on this earth realize that we are all of the same "tribe"? The separate countries of the world should be joining together into larger and larger countries until the entire earth is covered by just one government. Then, and only then, can we start to solve some of the worlds' most pressing problems. Too much ideology for you? Then you are just one more member of a local tribe who must come to the realization that this the only way for the human race to survive!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
They're always distorting the way Alaska looks as well.
Many maps still show Alaska as an island in the Pacific, just North of Hawaii. The ones that don't, show us in a way have an exaggerated "foreshortening" the likes of which Scottland can't even dream of.
If a proportional map of Alaska were overlaid on one of the contiguous 48 states, it would overlay about 1/4 the landmass with arms protruding from Los Angeles to new York City..