Ars Technica Reviews Leaked Windows 8.1 Update

SternisheFan writes to note that ArsTechnica's Peter Bright has reviewed the leaked Windows 8.1 update that was temporarily available from Microsoft's own servers. Here's how the article starts: "Leaks of upcoming versions of Microsoft's software are nothing new, but it's a little surprising when the source is Microsoft itself. The Spring update to Windows 8.1, known as Update 1, was briefly available from Windows Update earlier this week. The update wasn't a free-for-all. To get Windows Update to install it, you had to create a special (undocumented, secret) registry key to indicate that you were in a particular testing group; only then were the updates displayed and downloadable. After news of this spread, Microsoft removed the hefty—700MB—update from its servers, but not before it had spread across all manner of file-sharing sites... Just because it was distributed by Windows Update doesn't mean that this is, necessarily, the final build, but it does present a good opportunity to see what Microsoft is actually planning to deliver."

Comments

Nobody cares

[JoeyRox]

Microsoft could give Windows 8 away for free and tie a $100 bill to every DVD and people would use the DVD as a beer coaster and the $100 to buy an Android tablet.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft could give Windows 8 away for free and tie a $100 bill to every DVD and people would use the DVD as a beer coaster and the $100 to buy an Android tablet.

No, we'd use the $100 to buy beer for the new coaster.

Re:Nobody cares

[Calydor]

Seems to me it's more hate for Windows 8 than it's hate for Microsoft.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

40 weed 40 beer fried chicken

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

That's the real point. I use Windows 7 and it's actually ok. I had Win8 on one of several machines, and after struggling with it for months, finally installed Windows 7 Pro and called it good. They can call it Microsoft Hate if they want (which is really the geek equivalent of hollering "racism") but it's really Windows 8 that sucks.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

Supposedly it boots directly to the desktop if you have a keyboard and mouse plugged in and it adds features from Windows 7 back like power buttons, jumplists, and even tile resizing.

But since I never jumped on the bandwaggon I suppose I do not care one bit. If I was forced with a laptop with Windows 8 only drivers then I would and would love this if I were stuck with Windows.

Newer Atoms and other cheap notebooks are not Windows 7 compatible and you would think they would be!!

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

I have extended family members. One daughter got a new Windows 8 tablet/ultrabook Lenovo hybrids for Christmas and loves it. She brings it out in the island in the kitchen to browse facebook, do homework with MS Word, etc. Her mom grabbed it for recipes, they used it for skype more relatives, her brother kept fighting to use it for things.

I mentioned how HORRIBLE ITS UI was and offered to put Windows 7 on. They looked at me like EWW that GUI is for old people that doesn't run applets.

Like the EEE it is super portable.

The issue us geeks need to use muscle memory to relearn something and we used to laugh at those who could not adopt to change. Now the joke is on us.

The millennials like their apps, tiny sizes, portability, long battery life, etc.

Windows 9 will be a refined balanced UI. Tile applets on a Windows 7 desktop if you plug in the keyboard and mouse (mouse-first UI) if rumors are true. MS nees an answer to iOS and Android with battery life, smooth graphics acceleration, and applets. It is NOT GOING AWAY.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

It's possible (billly gates??) that this is a joke and it's gone zoom! right over my head. But assuming for a moment it's legit:

Yeah, sorry, that's a made-up story. Test by: (1) the great majority hate Windows 8 as you're well aware. The story of people loving 8 is usually some kid who just can't put it down, and how it's old fogeys who can't move with the times who want their start button back. That story is getting old. (2) "Windows 9 will be a refined balanced UI" etc etc, something that neither you nor any non-Microsoft person could know.

8 is a disaster. 9 might be more or less of a disaster -- it's too early to tell. With Ballmer gone, I have hopes that Microsoft will do the right thing, but like any of us here I don't have any knowledge for or against.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an IT provider and I don't sell Windows 8.anything. I won't put my name on such garbage. I've done a butt load of XP to 7 Pro migrations the last few months, and that will continue for at least several months. I also refuse to recommend Office 2013...so we're either deploying Office 2010 (licenses are getting expensive), or LibreOffice. For most folks, LibreOffice is perfectly fine. I'm think about offering Corel's Word Perfect as a commercial alternative.

All these big legacy software providers are trying to make desktop apps cloud based subscriptions. I believe they want to own/data mine the content created by having it stored "in the cloud." (Possession is 9/10th the law, regardless what the Eula says.) There's a place for cloud based subscription services, and MS Office / Adobe Photoshop et al is not the products that should be deployed in this manner. I refuse to sell either of these containers of crap as viable solutions... which brings me to the next traitor to the industry, the big "D". "D" has been poaching medium to large customers by using registered sales and hardware warranty info to bypass the IT vendor and directly contact customers with the goal of taking over their IT infrastructure from the local provider...by offering very low deals on hardware in exchange for cloud service business, private clouds, hosted vmware/san infrastructure etc. They remind me of another vendor that sold out their partner network in the POS space. These companies like their partners to do all the heavy lifting and build their customer lists, and then they go out and cut the legs from under them by trying to steal the mid and large commercial market consumers from the small IT shops as a thank you for playing.

If you're in the business, make sure you have a better mouse trap that can't be easily duplicated, and strong customer relationships. One of my larger customers gave me the scoop on what was going on, so we altered our hardware deployment plan to utilize a mix of HP and custom builds to meet their needs...saving some money in the process. Two can play at that game. These global elites think everyone is stupid enough to put their critically important data in their "clouds"...many are, but they will soon find out why the price is so cheap when you start seeing well funded competition moving in to your line of business...seemingly out of no where. Just like the Patent Office is used to steal ideas, so too is the cloud being used to steal customer list and business data....only the Chinese could have devised a more effective plan.

Re:Nobody cares

[thegarbz]

Bill Gates? Is that really you?

Only a few weeks ago you were having no end of problems with Windows 8.

Re:Nobody cares

[auzy]

Agreed.

And its big things which makes Windows 8 sucky, such as the lack of easy ad-hoc connections. Nobody has been using this for wireless anyway, but, some wireless devices require adhoc for initial configuration (such as the Global Cache Wireless products). There is no real legitimate reason to remove this.

Whats even more concerning is that during testing, Microsoft didn't realise that people would require google to find the power-off button. Whilst this is finally being fixed, usability problems such as this should have been identified during testing (whenever I'm onsite and I see someone with a new Windows 8 laptop, I tell them where the power button is, and 99% of the time, they always wondered, but never knew for sure).

Re:Nobody cares

[Penguinisto]

Most of what you wrote is typical shill-chow, but I want to stomp this one tidbit in the bud:

The issue us geeks need to use muscle memory to relearn something and we used to laugh at those who could not adopt to change. Now the joke is on us.

Now this is funny, because I find myself learning new GUIs on a very regular basis (the latest? This month is all about learning VMWare vCloud Automation Center. A few months ago, it was all about Cisco UCS Manager.)

I also know the Metro GUI very well - and I've discovered something: I really, really detest computing-by-easter-egg.

Mind you, it's 500x worse with having to use that stupid wasteful GUI on a server. (Yes, I know all about the mantra of "OMG use PowerShell and Core!!!111!!" but we both know that's bullshit, nobody does it on any serious scale, and it completely guts the Microsoftie argument of "OMG you have to use a command prompt in Leenux!!111!!" - but I digress.)

Point is, many of us who detest that abortion of a UI have already had to work with it, we know it, and we think it still sucks in spite of knowing it.

If some of the ordinary user crowd loves it, hey - well and good. Thing is, the majority does not, and for good reason.

Re:Nobody cares

[AnonymousCoward1998]

One of my customers says Windows 8 is for people dumb enough to put their "stuff" in the cloud. I'd say that's about right. Lower the intelligence level required and get more data from the consumer. Kind of like dumbing down the curriculum and tests in school, because certain kids don't score well.

Re:Nobody cares

[JDeane]

"Windows 9 will be a refined balanced UI. Tile applets on a Windows 7 desktop if you plug in the keyboard and mouse (mouse-first UI) if rumors are true. MS nees an answer to iOS and Android with battery life, smooth graphics acceleration, and applets. It is NOT GOING AWAY."

Honestly if Metro doesn't go away, I will... lol

Away to Linux or Android...

That will be a while though as they will have to pry Windows 7 from my cold dead hands.

It's pretty sad, I do love me some Windows and I have been using it for a long long time since the 3.11 days, I even liked Windows ME. But I just can't love Windows 8 and it's abomination of a UI. I can't count how many times I have installed Classic Shell in Windows 8 machines because the owners couldn't stand Metro.

http://www.classicshell.net/

I am sure it is fantastic on a tablet though? I have an Android tablet so yeah.... I am already in the process of ditching Windows :( If my PC didn't function as my home server and general PC work, I would probably be trying to figure out some way to go Android PC right now.

Re:Nobody cares

[Kjella]

I have a friend with an Asus Transformer hybrid and he likes Windows 8, but it's also exactly the kind of device it's designed for. The hate comes from trying to force everyone down that road, I mean if you big non-touch monitors then you don't want the tablet interface. I don't want to use it at work. I don't want to use it on my gaming/workstation rig. I might want to use it on an alternative to having an iPad or Android tablet. Sadly Microsoft knows they can totally ignore that market and it's not going anywhere. No, really it's not. Most of the "heavy" users are so stuck with Windows-only thick clients it'll take ages to migrate to something else. See Vista, it sucked donkey balls. Did users leave the Windows platform? Largely no. I left Windows in favor of Linux for 3.5 years and came back to Windows 7.

I hate to say it to geeks but if you look at Microsoft's stock performance they're still making money hand over fist despite what geeks think about Win8. They're not hurting. They're not failing. We hate them but Apple has largely abandoned the professional market (one trashcan design swallow does not a summer make) and Linux well I probably don't need to tell you about the current holy wars between Unity and Gnome 3.0 and KDE and whatnot chasing the tablet, nobody is taking charge to kill Microsoft on the desktop. I don't understand why everybody is leaping after the next big thing, it also means the competition will be intense. Why not try to outflank your competition or hit them in the rear in the markets they mostly ignore? When giants clash it's best not to be an ant with delusions of grandeur, you're likely to get stomped.

Re:Nobody cares

[Idimmu Xul]

my very non technical mate got a sony vaio flip thing 10 days or so ago with windows 8 installed. he LOVES it, despite complaining non stop, it also auto updated itself this week, i think to 8.1, he certainly didnt do any registry hacks but had a text rendering issue with chrome that is apparently an issue caused by 8.1?

ive had a play and i dont really see the problem, sure its a bit different but its not a world ending calamity, i do prefer my mac tho

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because people prefer windows 7 over windows 8 doesn't mean they hate Microsoft any more or less. Especially less.

Re:Nobody cares

[Technician]

As an older guy who has received an Unltrabook recently, and trying do do production work instead of consuming media, I had some issues. Installing older paralell port printers attached to my LAN via Trendnet or other devices proved to be very difficult. Visiting the manufacture of the printers for updated drivers was a total failure. As mentioned, there is a learning curve. To get the drivers, you have to use Windows Update instead. Trying to sort a list of files proved difficut too. A long list has the traditional scroll bars on the right just where you expect them. Dragging the bar does scroll the list, but at the top and bottom are the two buttons which also used to scroll the list without dragging, usefull if you only want to scroll small distances in a long list. Unfortunately in Windows 8 they are only decorations with no function. You either need a touch screen to scroll the list, or highlight a file and arrow up/down through the list, which defeats picking multiple files for copy by Control Click. A small wiggle on a extended list can scroll it by several hundred items making picking files difficult.

Maybe there is a trick to this I haven't learned other than drag drop each by itself..

The touch screen is not the preferred method of picking files from a list. My fingers are about 5 lines tall. A mouse is a much better and precise way to do fine motor skills. Photo editing suffers the interface issue too.

I tried to burn some CD's from a band I recorded. Windows 8 had a serious issue with my external USB DVD drive. Using Windows Media Player had no problem burning ONE disk. The media player on the left side properly identified if the drive contained a music CD, Data CD, or Blank CD. The information IS NOT passed to the right side which stubbornly recommended I insert a Blank CD before I could burn another. I went back to a Windows 7 machine which did properly recognise blank disks in the right side. Too bad they didn't keep Windows 7 functionality in the Window 8 Media Player.

In a nutshell, don't ditch your other machines when you get a Windows 8 machine. You may need the older machines to do older tech stuff like burning CD's, sorting photos, editing audio tracks, editing photos, etc. The Windows 8 machine is a great Facebook, Skype, social media and connected machine, but for production, keep your other hardware.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

We tend to base our reality on those around us and as humans we associate in groups who share similiar beliefs (slashdot.org pro linux anti MS, geek stuff, etc) which alter our viewpoints. It doesn't mean that those who disagree do not exist.

When making Planet of the Apes those in the gorrilas, chimpanzees, and others ended sitting in groups during lunch. They were not told too. Human psychology with group idenitty played into this at a subconcious level. I find it very interesting. ... back to the viewpoint I am not a Metro Tile Lover AT ALL. Many on www.neowin.net love Metro and it is similiar to slashdot but is very pro MS. There is a strong 1/3 minority who hate Metro there too like slashdot but love other MS stuff give or take and fights in comment sections between the 2 groups pop up.

I agree the Windows 7 desktop and Gnome 2 are better for me and those who do real work with lots of apps everywhere. Not applets. However, the younger crowd is used to cell phones during brain development so using an app and having 1 or two applets at a time feels comfortable.

I also agree Windows 8 IS A DISASTER. It is not that Modern/Metro is bad to me. It was not implemented correctly and rushed to beat Apple. But that doesn't mean we should not welcome changes like booting to desktop back or hate all applets on the desktop if the desktop is actually returned and no closed door syndrome shit. After all we own Androids and iPhones and do not freak out each time we use them right?

The younger crowd likes portability and touch. My example of my niece is that. She had 0 problems and has used XP on her parents computer before. She was happy got Metro and her brain was able to learn and even feel comfortable with it immediately. This generation are now just entering the workforce while the baby boomers are out or will be in the next 10 years. We will go in upper management or start companies or just mingle with this new group but they will be buying computers and influence corporate decision making more and more.

Yes the rumors about mouse-first, voice-first, and touch-first were from neowin.net. Microsoft employees mentioned this. In 1 month we shall see at the BUILD conference if this is true. I use that site as well. Been accused of being a shill for Linux on that :-)

I get flamed on both sides but I do not like being closed mined and missing something. I was one of those who brushed off the web and refused to learn development on it as HTML was just that. It wasn't real programming etc. I regret that choice.

While I am keeping Windows 7 and CentOS for now and ignore ubuntu and Windows 8 it does not mean I am set and will turn into an XP luddite and not update for 12 years and then go in a rampant rage when forced too. Windows 9 and Linux mint maybe on my next computer in about a year to a year and a half from now.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

I was going to say this update fixes this and puts the functionality including booting to desktop back in. Do not know about burning CD's.

What this tells mere weeks away from BUILD where Windows 9 will be demo'd is that MS is backtracking for desktop users.

I still use Windows7 as I am not ready to switch but at least desktop users are being acknowledged.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean made up like the twice weekly /. "my grandmother uses SELinux and LOVES IT" articles?

Re:Nobody cares

[King_TJ]

I agree with your observations, but not with you conclusions.

It's true that, especially for touch-screen capable devices, Windows 8 satisfies the casual user and less computer-savvy. The only reason these people find it usable is the ease of which one can launch a basic selection of apps from the Metro UI. It's like having a big program launcher / menu system bolted onto the front of everything.

The millennials are pretty fixated on "cloud based services and apps" right now. You could give them a modern day dumb terminal with good web surfing capabilities and all of the popular sites made into icons and they'd be happy. (Well, you might have to make it run MS Word and Excel too, since they typically learned those programs in school and don't like the web-based alternatives so much.)

Your suggestion of using Windows 7 instead and the response that it's "for old people" sounds like the dismissive behavior I'd get from our pre-teen kids... but doesn't mean the entire face of computing has changed.

People who actually want to do real work with a computer aren't exactly praising the Windows 8 UI as the future. Microsoft is trying really hard to sell it that way, but it's struggling. The whole Nokia merger and the in-fighting surrounding it indicates MS is a company desperate to find other revenue streams. Basically, it doesn't really believe in Windows 8 itself -- so it wants to bolster it by retaining some leverage in the mobile phone space.

I may be one of those geeks who "used to laugh at those who refused to adapt to change", but back then, the changes were truly innovative leaps forward. When you tried to get people using MS-DOS to move to a GUI environment that supported multi-tasking, automatic support for all of the RAM in the machine, cross-application support for printers and audio devices and SO much more, it was a leap worth taking. When I compare Windows 8 to Apple's approach with OS X for desktops and iOS for smaller devices, the Apple method makes a lot more sense to me. Win 8 isn't really giving me back anything that makes it worth re-learning where they hid all of the settings and options.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

you forgot the purple drank

Re:Nobody cares

[davester666]

for me, it's that I fired it up, and a whole bunch of relatively important functionality is hidden. There is no real visual indication that "if you have the mouse in this corner, a bunch of options you probably want to use, will appear".

It's like they saw Apple's Dock, and that it could be hidden, and said, let's use that UI, only it will default to be hidden, and we won't tell the user about it. It's like a game of "Where's Waldo", only with basic Windows functions.

Re:Nobody cares

[Ol Olsoc]

They looked at me like EWW that GUI is for old people that doesn't run applets.

Like the EEE it is super portable.

The issue us geeks need to use muscle memory to relearn something and we used to laugh at those who could not adopt to change. Now the joke is on us.

Yes, the joke is on us when "Wahhhh! My computer isn't working - fix it! FIX IT!" OMG I can't get to Facebook and Twitter"

"Sorry honey, I don't do system 8. " I relish the day when that joke is on me. "Fix your own computer smart trendy person who can adopt to change!" Looks like you're going to adapt to learning your own trendy computer".

You are quite simply wrong. Thinking that W8 hate is an inability to adapt to change is silly. It's like bringing out the Pontiac Aztek, and saying "This is the future of automobiles, and if you don't like it you're stupid. If you don't think the Aztek is the most beautiful car ever made, you must be blind". Um hum.

Re:Nobody cares

[jonwil]

+1 to this, I have no problems whatsoever with Windows 7 and use it every day as my primary OS. But I wouldn't use Windows 8 even if someone paid me to use it.

Re:Nobody cares

[gbjbaanb]

you have told her its a Windows tablet and not an iPad, right?

See the millenials don't want the old desktop UIs - fair enough - but then they don't care that its Microsoft either. I think its more us oldies who care that it runs Word, the kids will just fire up whatever app there is that does the equivalent and use that, assuming they even bother to use an app and not some web page instead.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Her mom grabbed it for recipes

This actually happens? I thought that was just one of those boilerplate "reasons" for getting a computer. Back when the Apple II and the Commodore 64 roamed the earth, any time some regular person asked "why in the world would I want a computer in my home?" One of the stock answers was "Um....you could keep your recipes on it."

Re:Nobody cares

[Waccoon]

In the 20 years I've been using computers, the only people I've ever heard say, "That computer is for old people" are fellow geeks.

Re:Nobody cares

[Bing Tsher E]

I am typing this on an 8" Windows 8.1 tablet. It cost about the same as an equivalent 8" Android tablet. It has an Intel quad core processor (x86).

It runs any real x86 Intel software I care to install, and also the Win Store apps. There are many fewer of them (apps) than in the iTunes or Play store, but I also haven't seen any Fart apps. The big MSM news outfits all have apps, and most of them seem nicer than the Android/iOS equivalents.

You're kidding yourself if you think Windows is just going to die, dry up and go away. I don't know yet whether Windows is going to kill Android or iOS on tablets, but it likely will kill one of the two.

Apple needs to grow a pair and quit with the iOS/OSX divide. This tablet, even just an 8" one, demonstrates to me that it's plain nuts to have a crippled cellphone OS on a tablet.

A bunch of people reading this will vigorously disagree. So be it. Everybody else: stay open to the future.

Re:Nobody cares

[basecastula]

I feel the same way. It is not like you have to use metro for anything other than search.

Re:Nobody cares

[MightyMartian]

I am... A future where MS is driven out of the consumer market.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

it's plain nuts to have a crippled cellphone OS on a tablet.

That's why Android is expanding to desktop computers. It's more capable in both roles than Windows 8, and less prone to infection and failure.

Re:Nobody cares

[ShieldW0lf]

Windows 7 was the first version of Windows I actually enjoyed using since Windows 2000. Microsoft lost me when they came out with Windows XP and I switched to Linux. I would never have considered going back to Microsoft, but then Gnome and Unity both tried to force their own vision of Metro on me. I used Windows 7 in the office, and was actually ready to buy a new computer and go back to Windows. But, when I showed up with my money, there were no Windows 7 computers to be had, and I needed a laptop, so I've got Windows 8.

I hate it so much. Every time I click a file and it opens a metro app and obscures the entire screen, I grind my teeth and swear.

But there's just nothing else I could install that has any real critical mass of users that wouldn't suck just as badly.

The technology that used to empower me have been fucked up at every turn by the influence of the advertising and entertainment industries. Sometimes I just want to abandon IT and go be a farmer.

The right way to do mobile computing is glasses and a glove that detects subtle hand gestures. Touch screens covered in fingerprints with buttons you can't distinguish by feel are not an optimal way to do ANYTHING.

When is this stupid fad going to end?

Re:Nobody cares

[rtb61]

So your argument is M$ is going for the computer dummies and quite basically fuck the power users. Why be fucking asshats, why not a second interface, seriously fuck M$ and their desire to force a 'PHONE' interface on the desktop in some crazy fuckarse scheme to force people to become accustomed to windows phones and the buy them like mindless idiots.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

paid schill

Re:Nobody cares

[Dutch Gun]

Honestly if Metro doesn't go away, I will... lol

Away to Linux or Android...

That will be a while though as they will have to pry Windows 7 from my cold dead hands.

It's pretty sad, I do love me some Windows and I have been using it for a long long time since the 3.11 days, I even liked Windows ME. But I just can't love Windows 8 and it's abomination of a UI. I can't count how many times I have installed Classic Shell in Windows 8 machines because the owners couldn't stand Metro.

http://www.classicshell.net/

I am sure it is fantastic on a tablet though? I have an Android tablet so yeah.... I am already in the process of ditching Windows :( If my PC didn't function as my home server and general PC work, I would probably be trying to figure out some way to go Android PC right now.

Yeah, I could have written this. I've heard arguments that "oh, you W8 haters just don't like change". True, people are generally resistant to change, but I don't think I necessarily reject all change out of hand. I liked the Vista-style Aero visual improvements (never cared for XP's look), although the OS performed poorly and had lots of small problems. I did like the improvements to the task bar in Windows 7 as well. I thought the Ribbon interface in Office was a necessary and fairly bold step in UI innovation. Power users tended to dislike it because it was such a radical change, which is understandable, but I think the products are more accessible and much easier to learn now.

But Windows 8 feels so utterly broken to me. I don't even hate the idea of metro apps - I think they could have been pretty cool if they had been more seamless integrated with the more classic desktop (leaving the full screen mode for the devices where it makes sense). There was no need to foist a full screen app launcher on the desktop user, especially since it has such a hard time figuring out what even the relevant "apps" to launch are (pulling in uninstall icons, documentation links, dozens of small and rarely used utilities, etc), and the usefulness of an actual hierarchy to keep things organized and tidy was completely smashed in favor of a paradigm designed to favor the simplistic requirements of tablets and smartphones.

So, no, I'm not resistant to change. I'm just resistant to change for the worse. And yeah, I'm going to be sticking with Windows 7 for while unless MS figures out a way to make some pretty significant improvements for the desktop user.

Re:Nobody cares

[Mashiki]

There's a difference between Win8.1 and 8.1 pack 1, anyone with Win8 can get 8.1 for free.

Re:Nobody cares

[phantomfive]

Yeah, that basically mirrors my experience with windows 8. My brother loves it. I can't figure out why.

Re:Nobody cares

[phantomfive]

My theory is that on a laptop, touchscreen isn't so bad. But on a desktop, it's somewhat unusable.

Re:Nobody cares

[Parker Lewis]

Sounds like that "happy family" TV announces, usually from Nintendo.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

I've been running 8.1 on my work computer since it came out. It's really not bad with Classic Shell installed to give it a sane interface again. I never even see the Start Screen, by choice.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

In all seriousness, it's past time to retire your old parallel-port printers. Those USB adapters are bandaids and don't work well to begin with no matter what operating system you're using.

Re:Nobody cares

[petermgreen]

"When I compare Windows 8 to Apple's approach with OS X for desktops and iOS for smaller devices, the Apple method makes a lot more sense to me."
IMO you can see computing portability as a spectrum, at one end you have the desktop (highly capable, not portable at all), at the other you have the smartphone (highly portable but very restricted capabilities). In between you have a whole plethora of devices of different prices, capabilites and levels of portability.

Apples soloution is to draw the line between tablets and laptops. Tablets get treated like smartphones, laptops get treated like desktops. Google also puts their smartphone OS on tablets (and doesn't really play significantly in the desktop or laptop space). Treating tablets like smartphones certainly has it's merits but it means you often end up carrying two devices, a tablet for media consumption and use on the go and a laptop for when you need to sit down somewhere and work. MS is weak in the smartphone market and by making a smartphone-like tablet they would be setting themselves up to be equally weak in the tablet market but by making a tablet system that can turn into a laptop by plugging in a keyboard unit they have a unique selling point that the other tablet OS vendors don't.

I think they are realising that throwing desktop/laptop users under the bus to support their tablet vision was a bad idea and I hope they can come up with a soloution that satisfies both. The general impression I get is that 8.1 is not as bad for desktop use as 8 but it's still widely considered to be inferior to earlier versions in that environment.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

j don't believe that one either.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

I found that Vista was much faster and more responsive than XP. The compositing desktop and SuperFetch improved performance vastly.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, even that isn't true. I live in China where legit software is hard to come by. I bought a copy of Windows 8 pro on-line. Came in a nice box with a legit looking Product Key sticker, but upon closer inspection the hologram on the DVD is actually a sticker. When you install it, ends up being the Windows 8 final build with the watermark in the lower right corner. I was able to change the Product Key to the one supplied on the sticker and it activated and removed the watermark, but I can't update to Windows 8, it never shows up in the Windows Store. I read somewhere that Volume License copies or whatever their called are not eligible for the update. I'm not too upset about it. I like Windows 8 as it is and have no problems, nor do I miss the Start Button.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, its a much better idea to get rid of the printer that has worked reliably for 10+ years, and buy one of those disposable ones that breaks every 2 years. Obviously.

Re:Nobody cares

[nateman1352]

The thing is there is a non-trivial number of computer users that used Win9x extensively and then 2000/XP and everything else after that who are used to that "old GUI". Honestly I think that old GUI is much better suited to any task that is complex enough to require the user to operate multiple different applications together to achieve a higher goal. I suspect that your teenage daughter's most complex computing task is typing her school papers. She probably doesn't create a whole lot of diagrams and pictures to go with them so she probably only ever has to look at Word and not do any context switching.

Really the users that do complex work flows involving multiple applications at once are Microsoft's core audience which for whatever reason they seem to have mostly forgotten about. Just to put things in to perspective, that kind of user is often referred to as a "power user" now... I remember when the term power user meant something meaningful.

And the thing is, it would be sooooo easy for Microsoft to make the "power users" happy. Here are the simple changes that would make everyone love Win8:

1. Bring the Start Menu back as an option. You don't have to make it the default, just make it an option.
2. Optionally allow Metro apps to run in a window on the desktop
3. Optionally allow the user to disable the charm bar
4. Allow the user to select between the Win8 Modern theme, Win7 Aero theme, or Windows classic theme.

Give the user the choice of how he/she wants the GUI to look and everyone will flock to Win8. It seems that Microsoft has forgotten one of Bill Gate's most important lessons, the power of the default.

If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, really guys please do this. The PC industry is in the shitter right now because of your arrogance NOT because of the iPad. The entire industry including you and including me would be better off if people started buying PCs again instead of $150 android tablets, the typical ~$400 PC + new software licenses to go along with it pumps a lot more money in to just about everyone's pocket (except maybe Apple and Google).

Re:Nobody cares

[temcat]

A great proprietary alternative to Microsoft Office is Softmaker Office. It is really the best in compatibility.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup it's not like it runs a 5 minute long intro to hot corners etc the first time you log in on a Win8 machine...

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to say it to geeks but if you look at Microsoft's stock performance they're still making money hand over fist despite what geeks think about Win8

Go read their annual report. About 60% of their operating income comes from MS Office. Another 30% comes from Servers and Tools - SQL Server, VS .NET, Azure, etc. And yes they do a good job with those. Windows division revenue is flat, while operating income is down - "primarily due to higher cost of revenue and sales and marketing expenses". Bing has been a disaster for years in their "Online and Services Division" and Xbox is a drop in the bucket overall.

So stock is doing well but its not because of Windows. Nor XBox. Nor Bing. Nor any of the "consumer" facing stuff. Its mostly Office and .NET.

Re:Nobody cares

[coastwalker]

I agree with you that you can do lots of entertaining things on a tablet or phone interface and that is great for domestic consumers. However they are locked out of any expectation of creative use of computing by the interface and applets. Its sad that it took only 20 years for the internet to become no more than a metro app.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Softmaker Office is based to OpenOffice.org so it is better you to get the LibreOffice and avoid paying to third party from it.

Re:Nobody cares

[temcat]

This is emphatically NOT true. Softmaker Office is not based on OpenOffice.org at all. It is an independently developed software suite, even using a custom proprietary cross-platform widget set.

Re:Nobody cares

[coastwalker]

This is what I keep thinking but dont say.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

I do not praise it.

However, it was a wake up call for me.

Here is what is nice about a tiny netbook and tablet with touch. PORTABILITY. It is like a cell phone but bigger and can do real work. Windows 7 and Gnome 2 are nice if you have lots of regular apps (not applets) with a dock/taskbar in a system of organization to launch things right?

Starting with win 7 I just type what I want and rarely use anything on the start menu. I occasionally do when I need a component or something. I use jumplists. If Metro apps can function on a taskbar and I could have a start menu with a mouse, but a start screen when I detach the keyboard I can live with that actually. My brain would resist the new look and difference and I would need to remind it of the benefits. Something a child does not have to worry about as they have more agile minds.

Windows 7 would be terrible and so would a heavy bulky laptop for her.

So as CPU's and GPU's get faster and SSD's are rapidly getting faster, more reliable, and cheaper we will see the power to multitask more in tinier packages. I think Windows 8 needs MASSIVE IMPROVEMENTS but it is an early look at the future. Apps are nice too in that you do not need +30 tabs opened in a browser when an app can do the same thing. They remind of the pc era in the early days of shareware where people installed applications for everything. Remember those?

A new sleek UI that still has features and is better implemented is doable and does have features for professionals too if done right if you get rid of the eww change. Many still can't handle the change away from office 2003 and are clinging to it for life.

Imagine going on a business trip where you carry a thin 13 inch hybrid in your carryon instead of a bulky laptop bag. It easily fits in your tray on the airplane, has +8 hours of battery life, and when you arrive in the rent a car GPS and maps navigator pop up with weather reports, etc. It has a taskbar and can run Office. It can do be doable and perhaps nicer than Windows 7 if done right.

Re: Nobody cares

[Sepodati]

I know it's surprising to you, but some people like the new UI. Or don't hate it enough to bitch about it all the time.

Sqeaky wheels...

Re:Nobody cares

[Joce640k]

The issue us geeks need to use muscle memory

No it isn't. The issue is that us geeks do real work and have things called 'files' on the computer.

I'm sure Windows 8 is fine for using Facebook and playing online games.

Re:Nobody cares

[mad flyer]

Accounting... don't forget the accounting excuse...

Re:Nobody cares

[JDeane]

I loved Vista, but I also beefed up my machine before it launched with an extra 4GB's of RAM and a better video card (brought me up to 8GB's).

Mostly the people who hated Vista had 4GB's or less of RAM and shitty video cards, toss in some off brand sound card with no driver support and no Direct Sound (MS removed it from Direct X for some odd reason. I have heard rumors it was some sort of feud with Creative?)

At launch with Vista you needed 8GB's to fully enjoy it, and if you did have 8GB's it was a buttery smooth OS. One of the features I do miss when I moved on to 7 was the animated desktop wall papers (I have heard you can "hack" them back into 7 but I don't haven't tried it.)

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

The issue us geeks need to use muscle memory

No it isn't. The issue is that us geeks do real work and have things called 'files' on the computer.

I'm sure Windows 8 is fine for using Facebook and playing online games.

Could, in a rhetorical question work in an environment that is more polished where applets, touch, as well as opening files work in a GUI? Windows 8 was not the best and implementation could have been very different. However I can open files just fine on a VM running 8.

For the record I use Windows 7 and CentOS with gnome 2. I am not ready for this change either, but I am open after seeing this. These kids are starting to enter the workforce and in a few short years start to influence purchasing decisions at our employers. I have a feeling it will come whether we like it or not.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

OMG. Dude that is horrible back in 2006 era requirements. You are looking at it with 2014 colored glasses.

Keep in mind most computers which were new at the store (not even mentioning existing ones!)only had between 512 - 1 gig in late 2006! A few workstations had 2 gigs of ram as high end gaming or video editing systems. Core2Duo's were brand new and expensive with no mobile versions yet. Pentium M's and Pentium IV's were still being sold as core2duo's were the luxury items for power users. To have that just to boot the OS is insanely bad.

Most people had ATI rage pros and integrated Intel 8xxx graphics chips soldered on the boards that could not even handle 480p flash video accelerated (XP was not even). Try running Netflix from a regular computer from that era?

Existing users with relatively new computers that were only 2 - 3 years old from the 2003 era where Pentium IV's with 256 - 512 megs of ram. Or were Pentium Mobiles that were 1 ghz.

Vista sucked and your post proves it. Windows 7 can run (not great) with a core2duo with 1 gig of ram and ok with 2 gigs if you want to do things like run applications and not just boot it.

Vista indexing just blew and it barely ran on my dual core 2 gig notebook purchased a year after Vista came out. Windows 7 was a world of difference on it!

Vista really did wreck. Even with 2 gigs of ram it was sluggish without a million updates and at least SP 1 and even then had its senior moments.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

No, fuck off. My £350 printer bought in 2000 works nearly as good as new (sheet feeder occasionally misbehaves, but printouts are perfect). Never had to do a repair on it. Compatible cartridges can be bought for a couple of pounds. I have bought two secondary printers since, and they've both developed significant faults within three years, as well as having more expensive cartridges - one was not cost-effective to fix.

What is more, the parallel port is a thing of engineering loveliness - the only port provided since the original PC which can be used for direct control of simple external hardware. Now kids think they have to buy Raspberry Pis for simple hardware projects as if their desktop/laptop is a hardware black box - the irony is that its heritage was the BBC Microcomputer, which was precisely a desktop which could also function effectively as a controller (so much fun with Lego as an 11 year old in the computer lab).

Re:Nobody cares

[rikkards]

Strange, the first time you log on there is supposed to be a quick tutorial showing the hover features. I decided when I built my new computer to jump to 8.1. I wouldn't have jumped to 8 though but I have to say it's fine once you get used to the changes. I do admit some of the changes left me scratching my head but I am sure if moving to another OS I would have gone through the same familiarization. With that in mind, I could see this being a point where people choose to move elsewhere since it's almost the same learning curve.

Re:Nobody cares

[JDeane]

Naaahh I was running a Pentium D (dual core Pentium 4 pretty much.) 3.6Ghz OC'ed to 4Ghz on a 1,066Mhz bus with 8GB's of RAM (4 full slots)
for Video I want to say I was still running my antique at the time 9800 Pro 128MB but I was probably running an X1950 either at launch or shortly after.

That was back in 2006 back when if you wanted a gaming PC you needed to upgrade your PC every 2 years.

So no I am not looking back with 2014 glasses lol But hey if you just got a PC with lots of RAM and a decent video card... welcome to my world circa 2006 I guess? lol (I will not bother with the specs of my current machine, lets just say Windows 7 runs like a champ.)

Yes I had better specs than your average user, and I also enjoyed a much better experience with Vista than your average user too.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the wet dream of many Linux zealots, but it's highly unlikely. Keep on hating, keep on dreaming, it's all you can really do.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate it so much. Every time I click a file and it opens a metro app and obscures the entire screen, I grind my teeth and swear.

Don't be such a pussy. If none of your file associations are set to open with Metro Apps then that won't happen. You started using a new OS. Some adjustments and changes are necessary on your end. Deal with it. I've been using Windows 8 for six months now. The ONLY time I ever see a Metro App is when I purposely open one from the Start Screen. Windows 7? Don't need or want it anymore.

Re:Nobody cares

[Billly Gates]

I built a brand new core2duo in October of 2006 with XP. Recalling from memory it had 1 gig of ram,(maybe 2 ??) NVidia GTX 7600, its hard disk size I do not remember as this pc did not last long. My wife at the time was not happy at the price tag which was $1300 after everything (I already had a monitor) CRT style. Very good gaming PC. Not freaking awesome like yours, but hey it can run WOW, battlefield 2, and other mid 2000's decade titles very well.

I also bought a laptop for school early that summer in 2006 which was a full Pentium M 1.5 ghz, 512 megs of ram (later upgraded to 1 gig), and a 80 gig hd. That was $800. Probably closer to $950 after I put an additional 512. This was mainstream priced computer and specs in the time of Vista.

Neither touched Vista for good reason.

Remember that Joe six pack looks at price tags. If it is over $800 he wont buy it etc. Maybe $1200 for a Joe six pack who works in a cushion office job where he has money and needs extra software.

So it is not unreasonable to bash MS, not the OEM's on this. You could not get a reliable cheap PC for the price point the market could bare to run Vista until about 2009.

My old core2duo would run Windows 7 fine. However if it had just 1 gig of ram it would have trouble actually running software after the boot. The board was plagued with bursting capacitors sigh.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

Because all modern USB-compatible printers are $100 pieces of shit, obviously. Idiot.

Re: Nobody cares

[macinnisrr]

OK, OK. I'm not sure "this fad" will ever go away. Maybe we'll get better screens less prone to fingerprints, but even then, why is your screen getting so dirty anyway? If you're eating cheezies (Canadian thing) while you're using your tablet, you're doing it wrong. I've been using Android devices for about 3 years now, and with every device, the screen's brightness made up for any fingerprint issues. And on the tactile response front, it's called haptic feedback. Your device shakes a little when you press a button. There's no way that glasses and gloves will take over from current touchscreens, unless the whole world decides they want to look like complete dorks all the time. Granted, I welcome looking like a dork, but my wife will probably object the next time we go to a party.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

Idiot. Grandparent's got an ultrabook. Ultrabooks haven't parallel ports and often enough don't have ExpressCard slots either. USB->parallel converters are uniformly shit, and aside from Thunderbolt in the high-end models, Ultrabooks only have USB and video-out ports.

If grandparent had a different sort of laptop that had an ExpressCard slot, he could find a better-quality adapter such as this one: http://www.startech.com/Cards-... and then he could keep his old tank of a printer with nary a complaint.

but he doesn't, so he's going to be overall better-served to upgrade printers. Fuck off yourself, twat.

Re:Nobody cares

[Caedite Eos]

I use Win8. All my stuff is on my HDDs. There is no reason you HAVE to use the cloud.

Yes, you have to actually open BOTH eyes and even get more than two neurons firing at the same time when setting things up, but it's not at all mandatory to use the cloud.

Re: Nobody cares

[roc97007]

Not the point. If you look hard enough, you'll find fans of every single product Microsoft farts out, including ME and Microsoft Bob. With a large enough installed base, it approaches a statistical certainty that someone somewhere enjoyed it, no matter how odious. Just as the world's least liked food is probably enjoyed by a few individuals.

But the stories of people who "love" windows 8 have a sameness about them that seems to indicate that (a) they're oft-repeated stories about the same person, or (b) they're made-up. Personally I go for (b), but concede there is a possibility of (a). Hell, I know someone who doesn't mind her Windows 8 tablet too much, but she spends well over 90% of her time in Internet Explorer, and is 100% a content consumer, so she misses out on much of the pain. Maybe Microsoft should feature her in commercials.

"My kid got a Surface RT for his birthday and won't put it down. He sometimes gets tangled in the power cord when he sleeps with it at night. We have to take it away from him at dinner and he cries and cries." "I brought home my Windows tablet and my four daughters immediately loved it. They have all abandoned their ipads and they fight over who gets to use Windows 8." Well, ok if you say so. But didn't I hear that story from someone else last week? And the week before? Is there maybe a memo going around of two or three "success stories" that everyone is supposed to repeat?

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel like you stuck in a world where others are making decisions focused on profits. Here is your opportunity to vote with your dollars.

I received a free upgrade to Windows 8, and here is what I learned. If you unistall all the Metro apps, they will no longer open. Just make sure you install other apps to take over the file extension duties. For example, you could use Picasa for .jpg, and Acrobat for .pdf. My start screen is only icons of applications that I use often. I have no tiles except for the Desktop tile. Furthermore, with 8.1 installed, I boot right to destop. You can customize Windows 8 to behave like Windows 7, but it requires a little setup effort. HOWEVER, I use Grub 2 to dual boot, and my primary OS is MINT, so I really do not see Windows that much anymore. I only use Windows for some games and my iPhone. Even my backup drive has been changed to EXT4.

Re: Nobody cares

[Sepodati]

Or some people just like it and learn how to use it. No script necessary.

I'll agree that there always room for improvement, though.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda like...oh...Google Chrome, Apple iCloud (incl any syncing via any IOS device), and much of what any Android device syncs and stores? ;)

Re:Nobody cares

[Mashiki]

Actually, even that isn't true. I live in China where legit software is hard to come by.

So you're complaining about buying non-legit software, and all the rest. You could have bought it like most people did from MS, hell you could have bought it dirt cheap for your region directly from MS. If MS got one thing right, it was charging $5(USD) for a copy in China/India/Pakistan when they had the "upgrade" offer over a year ago.

Re:Nobody cares

[Rob Y.]

Could be. But did anybody ask her if she'd have preferred a Windows 7 laptop plus a nexus 7 tablet for the same price? Then she wouldn't have to lug around this 11 or 13 inch ultrabook just to look at recipes in the kitchen. It sounds like she's using it as though it's two separate devices - which it kind of is (that's the problem with Windows 8 and Metro). I'm sure you (assuming you bought the Christmas gift) thought it was a great solution, but unless there's little to no price premium for these things, they really don't make much sense as all-in-one's.

Re:Nobody cares

[Technician]

I have a wireless LAN. I can use the Ultrabook, Netbooks, Subnotebook, etc in a recliner, no cords. Using printer, NAS, etc is all wireless. The printers sit on a shelf out of the way. Cutter is moved to the closet. Ok I have to get up to retrive a print job, but that is much better than damaged USB ports on a laptop. Yes I have several machines as some are optimised for specific tasks and backup for the new machine when it fails to perform. I have Ubuntu, Linux Mint, XP, Windows 7, and the Ultrabook all on portable recliner frindly formats and all connected to LAN resources.

Re:Nobody cares

[Technician]

On printers, I prefer them wired to my LAN. Interface is unimportant other than the correct Net printer protocol for a network port has to be used in addition to adding the printer to the Network Printer Port. My comment orignally was in regards to finding the PRINTER driver, not finding it's LAN port.

Comments regarding older printer is right on. The laser printer was an office tank. Toner carts are less than 1/3 the price of ONE Color ink cart for my inkjet. Drafts are defalted to the laser. OEM price for the printer was originaly $2400.00 US. It has outlived several ink jets that died.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

HEY! You go ahead and talk shit about Metro all you want, but Powershell is *fantastic*. Both VMWare (PowerCLI) and Cisco offer well-documented.. Wait a minute. Is this some damned exercise in Cunningham's Law?

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the key point: the story is about Windows 8 on a tablet.

On a tablet, it's not bad. Arguably, even good.

All the hate comes at it from people who are trying to use it with a mouse and keyboard. That's not how it's designed to be used. And Microsoft's big mistake, and it was a big mistake, was in ignoring how 90+% of users will be using it.

I have a Windows phone. Yeah, laugh all you want, but it cost me $100 to buy outright. And the Windows 8 interface on a touchscreen is just fine, thank you very much. It's on a desktop that it becomes a POS.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

Yes, that's in keeping with the practice of using the same code base everywhere. In the Windows Mobile days, Microsoft thought a start button was a good idea on a phone. Clearly it wasn't. Now they're trying to push a touch-only interface onto the desktop. That's clearly also not working. But besides that, windows 8's concepts of hot corners the way they've hidden everyday operations, and the lack of conveyance in the interface itself, (IE, it's not apparent what to touch or even what objects are touchable and which are not) makes it not really the best interface on a tablet either.

I will grant that Windows 8 is better on a tablet than on a PC, but there are better designed tablet interfaces.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Just read "Microsoft Hate" as "Microsoft H8".

Re: Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair to the Pontiac Aztek it was the future of mommy wagons as cars of that type, car frame SUV look, are very popular in suburbs. But I will contend that it was ugly as all get out.

Re:Nobody cares

[RockDoctor]

Seems to me it's more hate for Windows 8 than it's hate for Microsoft.

Don't worry, there are as-yet untapped wells of hatred for both M$ and Win8, they're just not blowing out quite simultaneously. Perhaps M$ should re-introduce Vista to improve it's public image?

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

I've been running 8.1 on my work computer since it came out. It's really not bad with Classic Shell installed to give it a sane interface again. I never even see the Start Screen, by choice.

...but not having admin rights on one's work computer, classic shell is not an option. To be successful, it has to work well on KVM types of machines out of the box, and it doesn't.

On consumer machines, Windows 8.1 is also not bad with Windows 7 Pro installed. Except that, well, you know, it's not Windows 8.1 anymore. And that's a good thing.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

Well, you can almost see the logic in it, if the product line was managed by idiots. "We tried forcing the start button and walking menus on a phone, and that wasn't very popular. I know! Let's make a touch only interface that works ok on a phone, and force it onto the desktop!"

It's almost as if management was purposely trying to turn Microsoft into a much smaller company.

Re:Nobody cares

[Dutch Gun]

I loved Vista, but I also beefed up my machine before it launched with an extra 4GB's of RAM and a better video card (brought me up to 8GB's).

Mostly the people who hated Vista had 4GB's or less of RAM and shitty video cards, toss in some off brand sound card with no driver support and no Direct Sound (MS removed it from Direct X for some odd reason. I have heard rumors it was some sort of feud with Creative?)

At launch with Vista you needed 8GB's to fully enjoy it, and if you did have 8GB's it was a buttery smooth OS. One of the features I do miss when I moved on to 7 was the animated desktop wall papers (I have heard you can "hack" them back into 7 but I don't haven't tried it.)

I'm sure Vista was not too bad if you had a pretty beefy machine to run it, but there's no denying it was poorly optimized. Disk activity caused significant stalls, and it was not well optimized to run well on multi-core machines, as there were a lot of contention problems in the kernel which prevented good multi-core performance. And like you said, it was a memory and GPU intensive OS as well. Keep in mind that was a pretty ridiculous amount of RAM at the time for any sort of business machine. I'm a game developer, and I'm pretty sure my machine at the time wasn't even up to par with those requirements (probably 4GB, if I had to guess). I didn't have a shitty video card - it was the constant hitching due to the poorly optimized kernel locking up on disk access that drove me nuts (which the constant on-by-default disk indexing didn't help), as well as the infuriating design inconsistencies in Windows Explorer, which MS has subsequently improved.

As far as the audio goes, MS simply removed audio hardware acceleration in Vista, as it makes much more sense to perform all audio mixing in software nowadays (the CPU impact is negligible), and hardware support would likely have complicated their new audio mixing stack. The reality of the market is that few people have actual accelerated audio nowadays, so it was a smart move for them. Buying an expensive audio card nowadays doesn't make sense, as all you're paying for is a better digital-to-analog converter, nothing more - other than a bunch of third-party crapware.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

Did you have something intelligent to add? Besides the derp in your second para, just ask your IT guy to install CS for you on "KVM types of machines", whatever that means.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

Sigh. KVM = Keyboard, Video, Mouse. It's an IT term.

If you don't understand that, you're also unlikely to understand IT management's aversion to installing "free" (uncontrolled, unwarrantied) software on business machines. Especially such a crucial thing as a GUI enhancement that would be commonly used by every PC user. It doesn't matter what you think of this; it's a real thing and a serious obstacle to Enterprise adoption.

Re:Nobody cares

[Nimey]

I know what KVM means, thanks, but you weren't clear about what kind of machines you're using them on.

I'm in IT and I wouldn't have any problem with Classic Shell itself being on a Win8x computer. I use it myself, after all.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

I know what KVM means, thanks, but you weren't clear about what kind of machines you're using them on.

I'm in IT and I wouldn't have any problem with Classic Shell itself being on a Win8x computer. I use it myself, after all.

And neither would I, if I was forced to use Windows 8. (We as a company decided not to deploy 8. We will stick with 7 and revisit when 9 comes out. We also skipped Vista, incidentally.) The thing is, as an administrator, I don't get to make the rules. The architects don't even make the rules. They make recommendations to management, who then cross reference with legal and others before making the final decision. We (as a company) would not deploy a tool like Classic Shell for the same reason we would not run our business on CentOS. (Which is a fine build -- I use it for prototyping.) It's not a functional issue.

And at home... we had a laptop with touch screen that had been upgraded to 8.1 Pro (or whatever they call it). It was easier to reinstall 7 Pro (from "system recovery") than try to figure out all the absurdities in 8. So even there, we were not forced to use 8, so I again had no use for Classic Shell.

Re:Nobody cares

[rtb61]

The worst of it all, it completely utterly fucking ignores the history of the iPhone taking over when the majority of users were accustomed to and relatively content with the windows XP interface. Two completely different pieces of kit with two majority user bases and it's hardly surprising two different interfaces (one simple for the stupid) and the other complex (for the power user). You have to this day whole families with one desktop computer and that includes the children who have left home, still one desktop but they all have smart phones.

Re:Nobody cares

[roc97007]

"But they all have smart phones". True, and that doesn't invalidate the XP type interface as superior on the desktop. Granted, phones and tablets are a growing market and desktop not so much, but Microsoft *owns* the desktop, and that would be a big enough market to make a nice living for some time, if they weren't so adamant about forcing a touch interface on it. It's natural for them to want to stretch into markets where they traditionally don't do so well, but they seem stubbornly trying to shoehorn one GUI into all environments. With Windows Mobile, that meant having an inappropriate interface in a market segment where they weren't doing well anyway, but with Windows 8, they're screwing with their base. It doesn't make any damned sense.

Re:Nobody cares

[rtb61]

The point I was trying to make is they are two completely different market bases and they require different interfaces, simple and dumb for the phone, smart, interactive and fully functional for the desktop. For myself the interface I prefer for the phone is 'voice' and the desktop the customisability of KDE.

Re:Nobody cares

[Anonymous Coward]

None the "old geezer geeks" I know had any trouble learning their tablet OS, or enjoying using it on their tablet devices. Your casual computing around the kitchen table example sounds too like a workload that is at least appropriate for a tablet-type device.

The complaints are coming from people who want a desktop-appropriate experience on their desktop, including aesthetics as well as hard functionality.

Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who DID spend time looking for how to shut down the first time (alt+f4 to the rescue) I'd booted Win 8, thank you MS for making it more obvious.

The writers idea that you'd just hit the power button is idiotic. I would NOT expect to get an orderly shutdown from that (possibly because that's how I have my "BIOS" configured). If I don't know for sure, I won't do it. I'm going to gamble with my filesystem, am I?

Re:Power button.

[cbhacking]

Windows Control Panel - Power Options (reachable directly by Start search since Vista, of course) - "Choose what the power buttons do" - "When I press the power button:" [Do Nothing | Sleep | Turn Off]. This is on my desktop which boots from an SSD, so I disabled Hibernate, but normally that would be there too. The default option is Turn Off.

This has been there since *at least* Windows 2000. Congratulations, you're almost 1.5 decades behind the times...

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

...I won't do it. I'm going to gamble with my filesystem, am I?

-1 redundant.

You're already installing an MS product, fool.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it's there, I just don't care. I'm used to restarting and shutting down systems from the cmdline, not searching in the dark for some button.

Re:Power button.

[Ynot_82]

If I don't know for sure, I won't do it. I'm going to gamble with my filesystem, am I?

Does windows still not have a journaling filesystem?
Blimey...

Re:Power button.

[cbhacking]

Sorry to self-reply, but a bit more info:
You can also configure the Sleep button (if you have one in hardware, or have one on your keyboard as many users will) and the lid-close action (if you have a laptop). So for example, you can make closing the lid just go quickly to sleep, but taking the time to press a button first cause a full hibernate. It's also very handy to have the power button configured for a (reasonably safe) shutdown; it can be used to get the machine out of various states where the UI is hung so you can't use a normal software shut down, but don't want to hard-kill the machine (which is pretty much never a good idea).

Oh, and every single computer I've seen since I first found this feature also supports press-and-hold on Power to do a hard shutoff anyhow, in case the system is *so* frozen that it can't even turn itself off (or in case there's some process which is continually aborting the shutdown).

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, why ride NTFS when there's ReiserFS.

Re:Power button.

[beanpoppa]

Well, this might come as a surprise, but not everyone is like you. I very rarely shut down my computer, and I don't want it to go to sleep every time I close the lid to move to a meeting, so I always map my power button to sleep. On the rarer occasions that I do want to shut down or reboot, I hit the Windows key, and the shutdown/reboot options are right there. Just like they have been for almost 1.5 decades, until Microsoft decided to hide it.

Re:Power button.

[EvanED]

Windows NT has had a journaling FS since its introduction in 1993.

But (on any OS) a journaling FS usually just means that the file system metadata itself is consistent; most journaling FSs don't journal data changes as well, so you could have a half-committed change to the contents of a file from a program. Even if it did, that still doesn't guarantee that a program will issue file operations in a way that has any chance of being considered atomic.

You could make an argument that journaling fixes some of the least important file system consistency issues.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're arguing with me thinking I'm ignorant, you're wasting your time. "My method" works no matter how the hardware and software is configured, no matter if I need to restart or shutdown, no matter where in the world the computer is physically located, the darkness of the room or how likely it's that I'm going to hit reset instead by mistake.

It's the only way I need to do it, unless it's hard-locked but that's hardly relevant in this discussion.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ntfs is a decent filesystem. However, very little is safe from a power yank when drives have write caching enabled. Furthermore, hardware *lies* about whether stuff has been flushed from the write cache, a fact that has made ZFS developers throw things in rage. What do you do when your CoW filesystem (far safer than even journaled fs) needs to ensure something is on disk and the sync command to the hardware lies to you and says it has when it hasn't?

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon. If you don't know what a journaling FS promises, don't bring it up. It's nice to have a consistent FS when you come back from the power loss, but you could have had untold gigabytes in write cache.

Re:Power button.

[Jamu]

I've probably got mine set up for an orderly shutdown, but it's easier for me to use my keyboard and mouse, instead of reaching under my desk for my system's power button. I'm thinking that turning it on from the computer case is kinda daft too. I should really just use the keyboard.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the issue: Everyone can configure it differently.

And for many geeks, we end up being tech-support for friends so we can't risk learning a muscle-memory default that might be wrong elsewhere.

So as a result, if it's customizable we tend to disable everything we can on our own hardware and only learn the one sure-fire way to do something elsewhere.

And for 1.5 decades, yes, it was "start menu... power buttons right there" as the safe way to guarantee something would shut down cleanly. So that became our safe muscle memory option that would apply no matter who's machine we were working on, or how new/old it was.

The whole 'sleep when lid closed' default never made sense to me either, since so often hardware was sluggish to come back from sleep state, and usually you only closed the lid to carry the laptop elsewhere and open it right back up.

Different "sleep timers" for lid closed versus open? I'd be all over that like white on rice. If I keep the lid closed for 15 minutes, or open for an hour and idle? Sleep that puppy!

But the defaults sucked for a lot of folks and gave laptops a bad rep. I've met dozens of sales drones over the years that would carry their laptops wide open between meetings to avoid closing the lid putting it to sleep because they didn't know they could change that default.

Re:Power button.

[cbhacking]

Cool, good for you. I don't know why the hell you'd map Power to Sleep when I guarantee that your laptop's keyboard already has a Sleep key, but hey, whatever. I wasn't talking to you, though, I was talking to the AC who was complaining that they don't know what happens when they hit the Power button. You obviously do know, so why the fuck talk back at me like I'm trying to tell you how to do things?

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least on my Asus' Win8, the default action was to immediately hibernate on power button press. Getting the damn thing to boot into Debian usb install took much longer than downloading the usb installation media. Eventually I found that at least reboot does waht it advertises, as the "turn off" really just dumped the RAM to ssd and put the computer into sleep.

Re:Power button.

[cbhacking]

Uh... if that's an OS cache, your OS has serious problems (and you have a LOT of RAM). If that's on-disk cache... where do you buy your disks?!? Mine has 64MB of cache, that's it...

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows has had a journaling file system every since they copied the journaling file system known as HPFS, from OS/2

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm full aware the power button will shut the machine down 9and mostly, I don't care if it's orderly or not, I just want to kill the thing and restart). The problem is 9 times out of 10, the reason I'm shutting the machine down is because some program is hung in the background. So I drop my mouse... fumble around under my desk for the power button, push it, then 5 seconds later a window pops up on the screen telling me the program is busy in the background and asking if I want to shut it down or wait, so grab the mouse again and start clicking windows again.

This is why I just shut down from the screen which I am already working at, and will likely have to work at some more in order to get an actual shutdown.

Re:Power button.

[viperidaenz]

press windows+r for the run prompt
type "shutdown -s -t 0" and it will magically shutdown. Works for all version of Windows since 2000. Maybe earlier NT versions too.
You can use -r to reboot instead of -s
It's pretty much the same as linux, except "-t 0" is equivalent to "now" and -s for shutdown instead of -h for halt

Re:Power button.

[viperidaenz]

"almost 1.5 decades"? Almost 2. August next year will be 20 years since Windows 95 was released.

Re:Power button.

[viperidaenz]

Microsoft didn't copy HPFS, they wrote it.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a laptop that doesn't suck, and you won't give a shit if it goes to sleep or not. With a modern SSD and a decent OS, the computer has woken up before you've even completely opened the lid.

Re:Power button.

[zippthorne]

The sleep you describe sounds a lot like hibernate. Sleep shouldn't need time to load crap into memory because it never unloaded memory - it should use the minimum power necessary to maintain state.

What maybe should happen is that after sleeping due to, say, lid closure, if the lid has been closed for a specified interval (say, 20 minutes), the state is also saved to the hibernate file, and after some further interval (say, an hour), the power to maintain sleep is also cut.

There seems to have been a mixing of terms, or maybe they were never separate enough in the first place, such that you need to carefully read the documentation to get the proper context, and the power settings are never quite expressive enough to do what you want them to.

Re:Power button.

[Nimey]

If that's too hard to remember, you can put the command into a file called "halt.bat" or similar, move it to somewhere in your PATH, and then type "halt" in your terminal window.

Re:Power button.

[cbhacking]

Don't even actually have to use Run (Win+R); the Start search accepts command line arguments. So WinKey and just type the command works fine too.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

0 is not an acceptable value on win2k, 1 works everywhere.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Informative? How about +4 FAIL

Your method worked up to XP (possibly Vista, no idea on that one).

Shutdown /s /t 00

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone that uses a desktop, the power button is further away from my right hand than the mouse, hence it is much easier to click on a shutdown option with the mouse then to take my hand off the mouse, bend over, reach into a cabinet, and press a button. Anyone pressing a physical power button to turn off their computer is working inefficiently.

Also, anyone that is old enough to have been around when Windows first implemented power button soft-features knows that it was poorly implemented and rarely worked.

Now, pardon me while I park my heads.

Re:Power button.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would I want to fiddle around with a physical button instead of use a soft shutdown in the OS itself.

I remember when PS3 & X360 came out a few years ago people were thrilled that you could turn it off and on through the controller without having to press any physical button on the machine. Now, folks are acting like the power button is the easy way to do things...

Should we W8? Does Bing patient pay off?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no way Microsoft is going to save Windows 8.1. Especially with kernel fixes that my Grandma can't even learn appreciate.
According to the elderly: "Buttons are meant to be buttons, not something shape-shifting, and non-dedicated."

Reviewer hates users

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't get through the article. The reviewer seemed positively baffled about changes that would give more control to the user. Why would anyone want that? He kept asking. Yeah that's how Microsoft used to think throughout the past 2 decades, it's time for them and you to get past that ridiculous mindset. Give MORE control to the users, not less. And make MORE information available to the users; stop hiding things behind registry keys, obscure log files, and generic and highly misleading error messages.

Re:Reviewer hates users

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple made it's bank on a decision, in the early 2000's, to treat it's user base as lobotomised retarded proto-lifeforms. To the surprise of just about everyone else in the industry, it turns out that the masses WANTED to be treated as mouth-breathing idiot fucktard assholes who can BARELY manage to use a device with anything more than possibly one button and a wheel for the control.

Ever since then, it's been a race-to-the-bottom for software developers. Windows 8(.1) is a direct outgrowth of this. The author's bafflement reflects the user-land perspective of "why would I want TWO buttons?! You're making it TOOO complicated! waaaaaaaaahhhhh"... Go ahead and blame MS for the new UI, but it's the hordes of retarded idiots over-spending on Apple shit that's REALLY driving this ...

-AC

Re:Reviewer hates users

[Ol Olsoc]

Apple made it's bank on a decision, in the early 2000's, to treat it's user base as lobotomised retarded proto-lifeforms.

Still pissed off about the industry moving away from CP/M, I see.

Re:Reviewer hates users

[Atomic Fro]

I don't really agree with you. In 2000 Apple gave the world a powerful commercial UNIX workstation OS that "just worked," along with a fantastic IDE and development tools for free. There were lots of things in there for power users that may not have been advertised or easily discovered, but they were there and documented somewhere if you knew how to look.

Now, the workstation OS started going to shit as you described after they moved to intel, supposedly Mavericks fixes that a bit. I don't know, never owned an intel mac (thats also when they started sunsetting hardware almost as quickly as it was released).

Its iOS thats for the lobotomised retarted proto-lifeforms. And, yes, some of that was getting into OSX proper. But I believe the backlash with Windows 8 showed them that might not be too wise and I've heard they've backed off, again, with Mavericks.

Harps on about power button

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone with a desktop machine actually _want_ to use the power button to turn off the machine? Personally, mine is tucked away under my desk well out of convenient reach.

Keypress turns the damn thing on, start-> shutdown turns the damn thing off.

Only time the power button gets used is if the machine freezes and need a kick.

Re:Harps on about power button

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I was wondering that. Until recently, I hardly every used the power button on my home computer; only reason it isn't tucked away under the desk and out of reach is the dog chewed on the power cable when it was down there... The computer only slept, and I awakened it by touching the keyboard. And we're instructed never to use the power button on our office computers (except when they need a hard boot), so I also have that box in a place where I need to crawl under the desk to get at.

So yes, I always put these computers to sleep, and wake them back up, from the keyboard.

Oh my god

[Undead Waffle]

A Peter Bright article that is actually critical of a Microsoft product without trying to downplay all of its flaws? What is this world coming to?

Re:Oh my god

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a stopped clock that is right twice a day, even Peter Bright will fail to suck up to Microsoft once in a while. (Where "a while" is defined as "a deacde".)

He's met his quota for the twenty-teens; check back in the twenty-twenties to see if he can do it again.

Re:Oh my god

[Anonymous Coward]

That's only because this will be a (small) improvement over the previous version. If it was a major cock-up, there would be praise galore.

Re:Oh my god

[Atomic Fro]

It didn't seem to me that he was critical of Microsoft as much as he was desktop users. I could barely get through the article due to rage, but this is how I parsed it:

"Look at all these redundant features Microsoft felt they had to add to appease stupid desktop users who haven't learned anything from Vista's UI 7 years ago. These users need to go away, they are forcing Microsoft to clutter up my Metro!

Look, a power button! A power button for Ballmer's sake! Who the hell needs that? If you are a laptop user, close your damn lid and let it sleep. If you are a desktop user, push the button on the front of your pee cee. That's been standard since ATX came out in 1995. GET A CLUE PEOPLE!

What? You say you want to reboot? If Windows needs to reboot it will do it for you. You don't need to waste time doing that on your own.

Well, crap. Metro apps have title bars now. Well, I guess that's not too bad. But, you know, you could have just dragged down with your mouse you lazy desktop users. Ugg, now that ugly task bar is covering up the ui in the bottom portion of the screen. I don't remember you desktop users wanting that. Leave my metro alone!

OOOOOH PRETTY! SkyDrive is now called OneDrive, and I can access it in Metro, the OneUI to rule them all.

Well, I don't know who wanted this. Its just redundant crap taking up space on my metro. Desktop users avoid metro anyway, so they obviously don't want it. Stop wasting time on desktop users, Microsoft.

Re:Oh my god

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

Peter Bright has been sucking the MS cock since he first started posting on Ars Technica's forum back in the late 90s. His posts were always full of vemon and hate towards anyone who dared criticize MS (and therefore extension, himself) When AT was making new positions for editors, he whined and screamed for one, and if he didn't get it, threatened to leave AT. I am so glad AT implemented the "ignore" function. Now him, and Evil_Merlin are never seen by me. If only I could filter out his stories as well...

Re:Oh my god

[Anonymous Coward]

Amusingly, his nickname was Troll long before most people had heard of Internet "trolls"...

File History now backs up OneDrive offline files

[PUC_Snakeman]

One thing that's not being reported anywhere, and is a new feature to this update, is:
File History now backs up OneDrive offline files!

This is a big change for me, and will finally allow me to trust putting files "only in OneDrive", since I will have local File History backups of it!
Thanks, Microsoft.

posting from windows 8

[Teunis]

observations:
- install a start menu replacement to get application menus back. Application menus are handy when one has a number of applications with similar names.
- disable search and system speed jumps. Don't use it anyway, and it's pointless for a programmer like me.
- constant delays in performing tasks
- chrome can open 1/10 the tabs of linux on same hardware. That's perhaps a bad sign.

I've actually found my ability to work effectively on this platform has degraded to the point I just don't anymore.
I now use windows as a game platform and occasional (and frustrating) web browsing.
With Steam (etc), the issue with not being able to find my applications anymore stopped being relevant - I stopped using them under windows at all.

so when I want to do real browsing, real programming, or pretty much anything other than playing games, it's back to Mint for me. (because I similarly find unity and other "tablet" interfaces - interfaces less useful and intuitive than either IOS or Android - pointless)

Re:posting from windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

Couple choices:

1. you're lying
2. you have a fucked up configuration on your windows hw
3. you're selectively omitting details (see 1.)

Otherwise, there would be no way your browser in windows would having trouble with "1/10 the tabs of linux on same hardware" and you would see "constant delays in performing tasks" (what does that even mean?). Or, maybe your looking at some stupid metric like ram used and concluding arbitrarily that chrome can't open more tabs (a good OS would be allocating available ram, rather than leaving it unused).

I am also confused at your statement that search is "pointless for a programmer". What does it have to do with being a programmer? If anything, most of the programmers I know are disorganized packrats and use search extensively.

I think the windows 8 gui is pretty bad for desktops, but the mistakes aren't these glaring amateurish mistakes that you are announcing. And, the old GUI is just a download away

If you need to search it's broken

[dbIII]

Personally I think that if you need to search for a way out of an application that doesn't give you a manual to read before you go near it then it is broken.

Pay-for-Play article by Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Ars Technica is probably the WORST pay-for-play tech-site on the Internet. It's articles exist purely becomes some company or agency pays them for the coverage, which always takes the form of a long lump of very crude propaganda. A little while back, Ars Technica took a payment for hundreds of thousands of dollars from Monsanto to produce a pro-Monsanto puff-piece, disguised as a 'science' article.

The paid for promotion of Windows 8 in this article is just hysterical. Everyone EXCEPT the vicious psychopaths that currently run Microsoft know that Windows 8 is a massive failure with its customers. People genuinely liked Win7 with optional Aero, and saw it as a very reasonable upgrade for XP. On the other hand, no-one in the core market for Windows wanted a iPad like experience on their desktop or laptop.

BUT, the consequence of Apple's success in the market caused Microsoft to create a unifying cult within the company where "it must work like an iPad" was the ONLY doctrine any department head was allowed to believe in. Before Win8 was released, the entire Microsoft company was groomed and brainwashed into accepting only one possible view of the future.

On one tech news site, in the comments, a designer of the Win8 interface posted a long 'explanation'. This guy had worked on Win7, but due to the cult-like brainwashing, was like one of those cult drones that seeks to accost you on the streets. He 'explained' how people who wanted to keep the traditional multi-window interface were completely wrong, because Microsoft 'experts' had 'proven' the doctrine of Win8 to be the one true 'word of god'. This guy wasn't some management drone, but a low level implementer.

So, today, all that remains in Microsoft is a single-minded defence of the horrors the intellectually sub-normal psychopath, Ballmer, inflicted on the company. Ballmer paid experts in psychology to target Microsoft's nerds, and break their will to his 'vision'. And sadly, most nerds have very fragile psyches, and can be bent in any direction by a sufficiently ruthless individual.

Microsoft's strategy, like any religious zealot, is to repeat over and over "you are wrong and we are right- and time will prove this". Changes to Win8 are like changes to Catholic Doctrine- all talk and no substance, because those in charge are determined there will be no real shift in fundamental policies.

The pay-for-play article on Ars Technica says "those that hate Windows 8 are technically illiterate morons. However, Microsoft always listens, so even though the critics are wrong, Microsoft has made some great changes- which all just so happen to underline what makes Win8 in the first place."

Even Anandtech and Tom's Hardware don't come close to the corruptness of Ars Technica- and Ars Technica is one of the VERY few tech sites that has literally no merit at any time.

Re:Pay-for-Play article by Microsoft

[PopeRatzo]

And sadly, most nerds have very fragile psyches

Reading the comments to this article confirm this like nothing else I've seen.

Christ, it's a shitty operating system, marginally better than Windows 7, and you're making out like someone's raped your sister and then tweezed your nose hair. For fuck's sake, get some perspective.

I mean, do operating systems even matter any more? The only people who care about this are the sad sacks that do corporate end-user support...Oh wait, that's it isn't it? You have a shitty job and you're pissed at the world. Oh, OK. Carry on. Get it off your chest. You have precious little to live for, so if it makes you feel better to be the anti-MS Martin Luther and hammer your treatise to the church door, then by all means...

Return To Days of Future Past: DOS

[Anonymous Coward]

From the looks of things there are multiple insurgency battles enraging within Microsoft Campus Corporate Compound. The Iconography of 'Metro' is a daunting failure that Microsoft is going to shove with a pickax down the user regardless of the user's intention.

Windows 8.1.update looks to be an OS for comatose people.

For a person who needs to really accomplishing something, do something, create something then Windows 8.1.x is NOT the solution!

This opens a Grand Door for people to rediscover the beauty and power of the Disk Operating System DOS.

I will not belabor this. But for those few amongst the multitudes of humanity who can write a program or shell script and who understand computing and computing languages there is no alternative than to abandon Microsoft Windows 8.x and live to a better day using DOS to actually create instead of seeing a tile with your pulse rate though in error.

FU

True

[Undead Waffle]

Admittedly I mostly skimmed it the first time and read the conclusions at the end. In a second read through you are right there is a lot of that "it was fine, the users are dumb" attitude. But it does say that Microsoft is making an already inconsistent UI even more inconsistent without trying to justify or downplay it at the end like he typically does. Overall the article doesn't feel like a big sales pitch like most of his other articles.

Re:True

[Carewolf]

It is probably because he is trying to defend himself instead of Microsoft, which means he needs to defend his previous defences of Windows 8.

Funny stuff.

Start Menu Search

[VanGarrett]

Perhaps this is speculation too far, but this pair of changes almost suggests that many Windows users haven't changed the way they use the operating system—or their computers—since the mid 1990s. The Windows Vista-era mechanism of "Start and then type," now seven-years-old, apparently hasn't caught on and quite plausibly isn't even known by many Windows users.

Am I missing something important, or does this idea where you're expected to type the thing you want to do kind of abandon the whole point of using a GUI instead of a command line?

I'm not exactly opposed to having the feature there, but if you automatically have to resort to it, then your GUI needs to be reconsidered.

Re:Start Menu Search

[EvanED]

Why should there be a sharp line between GUI and text interface? In other words, the question shouldn't be "should this typing thing be in a GUI" and should instead be "is this (or when is this not) a good way of launching programs?"

For instance, I'm actually one of the relatively few people who actually really liked Vista, and a lot of that was on account of the search feature of the start menu. I'd have taken it over XP on the basis of that feature alone, that's how much it improved my usability. (Possibly XP + Launchy would have satisfied me, but I discovered it a bit too late to use it much with XP and view it as pretty much obsoleted by Vista+.) For several reasons, I think it's even significantly easier and faster overall to use the start menu search than it is to use tab completion in a typical shell to launch a GUI program.

(And incidentally, this is one reason that I'm almost completely indifferent about Win8, which I suspect you don't see. I pretty much ignore the fact that metro exists except when launching programs, and I launch programs pretty much identically to how I launched them in Vista & 7.)

No one says "hey I actually have to type when creating a document in Word; what gives?!" even though Word is pretty much undeniably a GUI.

I think that in a lot of cases, the same can be said for the start menu. If you're on a desktop/laptop, most of the time pressing win then typing a few characters is just fundamentally going to be the fastest way to start a program. The Win8 problem comes from the fact that in other situations, or if the user doesn't know you can do that, or if they just don't want to type, the start screen is pretty hard to use well.

Re:Start Menu Search

[cbhacking]

When you find a command line that lets me launch programs by typing the first few letters of any word in their name (in the case of multiple results it defaults to the one you run most often), let me know, OK? Oh, and by name I don't mean just the binary name, but the program's full name and any description you've given it in the Start menu/screen.

I mean, I use command line stuff a fair bit. I've got two windows of cmd and one of bash open right now, and I'm surprised I've only got one session of the latter running. But, that's mostly developer stuff (Visual Studio Tools in the one, manpages in the other; yes I write portable code in VS). Aside from programs that are inherently CLI-based though (like man), I rarely launch programs from the CLI. It's much faster to hit the WinKey and type "not" [ENTER] than to switch to a command line and type "notepad++" (even with command completion, which will get stuck on other expansions) and that assumes Notepad++ is in my path.

Re:Start Menu Search

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should there be a sharp line between GUI and text interface?

Because constantly switching between keyboard and mouse/touch to control your computer is a pain.

"should this typing thing be in a GUI" and should instead be "is this (or when is this not) a good way of launching programs?"

Most GUI applications are mouse controlled and provide little to no sane keyboard navigation (pressing tab will jump all over the place if it works at all). So having users switch to keyboard for only a single line of text and then immediately switch back to mouse is currently counter productive.

For several reasons, I think it's even significantly easier and faster overall to use the start menu search than it is to use tab completion in a typical shell

Nice misdirection, firstly the typical windows shell sucks, secondly it ignores the Windows XP style start menu which is also vastly superior to the typical Windows shell (did I mention that windows shells typically suck?). Currently your claim is that Windows 8 is little better than being stabbed in the eye, repeatedly, with a rusty spoon.

No one says "hey I actually have to type when creating a document in Word; what gives?!" even though Word is pretty much undeniably a GUI.

Take Word, remove the space bar and replace it with a button in the GUI. Can you imagine the pain caused by this? Can you see the utter nonsense? Having parts of your interface require a constant switching between mouse and keyboard is not only stupid, it is bad. Same for the start menu, switching between mouse and keyboard to input a single line of text and then instantly switching back is nonsense - there has been a way without doing this for decades and it got optimised every windows release.

Re:Start Menu Search

[EvanED]

Nice misdirection, firstly the typical windows shell sucks, secondly it ignores the Windows XP style start menu which is also vastly superior to the typical Windows shell (did I mention that windows shells typically suck?).

I could have been clearer, but I was including typical Unix shells in that as well.

Actually if you define a command-line shell as a text-based program that you use to launch and interact with other programs, the Vista/7/8 search mechanism for launching programs works better than every command-line shell that I've ever used if you just want to launch the program with no command-line arguments (which is the usual thing when starting a GUI program).

Take Word, remove the space bar and replace it with a button in the GUI. Can you imagine the pain caused by this?

If you're launching programs with anything approaching the frequency of typing a space, you're doing something really weird.

But fine, take a different example: a web browser. Browsers are primarily a mouse-driven program -- scrolling is arguably nicer with a mouse, and clicking links and such is definitely nicer with a mouse. But if you want to go to a new URL, what do you do? Type it out, even though that's only a momentary use of the keyboard.

Re:Start Menu Search

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a number of similar things for linux, gmrun and gnome-do among others. However, you're probably not going to find a shell that does autocomplete like you want, because it does other things instead.

!! represents the last command entered
^x^y replaces x with y in last command
!$ represents the last argument to the last command
!* represents all of the arguments to the last command

ab{1,2}cd results in two strings: ab1cd ab2cd

And ctrl-R will search your command history backwards. Note that this will also include arguments.

The CLI is, as you note, good for launching CLI apps. And your app launcher can get away with using autocomplete because it only launches GUI apps without command line arguments. Your wanting a shell that autocompletes is kind of like asking for a tank with good highway mileage. You can do that, but it's not really what it's for, and you're missing out on a lot of stuff that the other tool is actually for.

I'll be waiting

[Anonymous Coward]

So Windows 8.1 is just more warmed-over crap?

I'll be waiting for Windows 9 if they're still even relevant then.

Android is all maximized all the time

[tepples]

That's why Android is expanding to desktop computers. It's more capable in both roles than Windows 8

Let me know when Android can even put two windows on the screen. RIght now, only select apps for select Samsung devices can do that. Unless an app uses a multi-window mode flag in its XML manifest, it's allowed to assume that the screen size will never change after installation, and only Samsung devices honor that flag. Use a non-Samsung device or an app by someone who doesn't have a Samsung device on which to test, and it's all maximized all the time. At least Windows 8/8.1 (x86 and x86-64) can go back to the desktop and its overlapping and snapped window management models.

Re:Android is all maximized all the time

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when Android can even put two windows on the screen.

2012 called and wants its ignorance back.

http://liliputing.com/2013/09/...

Re:Android is all maximized all the time

[Two99Point80]

Let me know when Android can even put two windows on the screen

My Galaxy Note II can do that.

Re:Android is all maximized all the time

[CastrTroy]

Its also worth mentioning that when developing Window 8 apps that this variable size app paradigm is baked into the UI design, and as a developer they make it really easy to work at a variety of screen widths. Which make it easy for your app to be run on windows phone. Since the phone is basically the same as the app running on desktop with the minimum width.

Re:Android is all maximized all the time

[jareth-0205]

Let me know when Android can even put two windows on the screen.

2012 called and wants its ignorance back.

http://liliputing.com/2013/09/...

Alright there Mister Patronising... Not really Android is it though? When Android for vast majority of devices effectively means stock+tweaks+Google Play, solutions that are only for manufacturers to implement is a bit useless for the rest of us, isn't it?

Xubuntu

[tepples]

Gnome and Unity both tried to force their own vision of Metro on me.

When Ubuntu 11.10 started pushing Un(usabil)ity harder, I just did sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop and never looked back.

Posted from my Dell Inspiron mini running Xubuntu 12.04 LTS

Not all laptops have a sleep key

[tepples]

"Guarantee" is a strong word. A smaller laptop, such as my Dell Inspiron mini 1012, might have no dedicated sleep key. So I configured my laptop's OS to make the power button ask whether I want to suspend, log out, restart, or shut down.

Re:Not all laptops have a sleep key

[cbhacking]

Huh... every device I've seen with a dedicated keyboard either had an actual key or (more often) a simple key chord (Fn+F3 or similar) for sleep. Odd.

Doesn't put the HP in HPFS

[tepples]

But then why did Microsoft have to give its High Performance File System a name that people might confuse with Hewlett-Packard? HP needed to name its own file system OJFS (no Reiser jokes please) to distinguish it.

Re:Doesn't put the HP in HPFS

[viperidaenz]

I don't know, it was 25 years ago.

Hummm

[Anonymous Coward]

Why this story shows in the horrible Slashdot beta? Windows 8 envy maybe? Also this box is difficult to tell what is the title and the comment until the preview comment button is pressed up.

Stupid Defaults

[Anonymous Coward]

I discovered the settings could be changed when I hit the power button to put a (recently installed) Windows XP system in Standby, but it ended up shutting down completely and losing all the webpages and documents I had open.

(Goddamn stupid defaults.)

Still crap

[mysidia]

Wake me up, when they concede to bring the Windows 7 start MENU back.

Re:Still crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfff, menus have discoverability. That doesn't fit with Microsoft's mantra of "hide information from the user".

Re:Still crap

[Megol]

Hmm? Given the normal response patterns when someone complains at a Linux installation your inability to install the free Classic start menu feels odd. I can understand if one is using Windows 8 on a locked down corporate machine (which still is a very unusual scenario) but on a machine one have some basic control over you still can have it back!

Just install Classic start menu (and optionally other Classic shell components), upgrade to at least 8.1 and enable boot to desktop. Voilà: A much enhanced Windows 7 is before you!

Re:Still crap

[mysidia]

Given the normal response patterns when someone complains at a Linux installation your inability to install the free Classic start menu feels odd.

This is a Microsoft-unsupported shell tweaking application that Microsoft can break at any time.

I don't want to support Windows 8 by purchasing, UNTIL the user experience is good out of the box.

Re:Still crap

[vandamme]

My Mint menu has a start button (well, right now it says, "What is thy bidding, Master?"), and the menu is less confusing.

For what purpose

[koan]

Does Microsoft create this interface without a start button and traditional desktop option? What is the drive to do away with choice? Why not have the option for both traditional desktop and Metro?
It's like Unity, it fucking sucks there is no choice, just a "here suck on it" attitude.

Re:For what purpose

[Megol]

I agree with this, there shouldn't be any problem to adapt the UI to the current environment. Even early and resource-starved systems like the GEOS PC could automatically adapt parts of the GUI.

Alas I still get irritated when I insert a USB Flash drive into my Windows 8.1 machine and it pops up a notification to "tap" to select what to do with it. Without a touchscreen it is bloody hard to tap that!

Ballmer

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe your point but, what the hell do kids know? The previous comment over windows8 tablet and a kid using it, is laughable, a tablet uses a basic OS, it has replaced the very reason a majority of people bought a computer, to access the internet. So this "you refuse to change" shit is redundant, these 'old' users aren't just using a computer for basic needs. They actually use it for far more. Yes there are people that still use a computer for basic needs, who complained about windows8, but it was the ones that actually -utilize- a computer that nitpicked everything wrong with that OS.

And what is it with Ballmer? Lets blame one guy who had to answer to a board of idiots, and who was being directed by a board of idiots, and the only reason he is gone is because he wanted MS to get deeper into hardware, but the board of idiots refused and he decided to quit. Seems to me any CEO of MS is a PR rep, for when the board f**ks up.

However, getting into hardware at this point in the game, with all the other competitors out there now and the ones that are up and coming who have already established themselves as players. Would be pretty dumb, but MS, despite everyone kissing there ass and calling them geniuses, are pretty narrow minded, and just about clueless.

three strikes and you are shut

[jjohn_h]

Winkey, Right, Enter

Summary: still a rightfully maligned pile of shit

[FuzzNugget]

I read the article on Ars the other day. 8.1 has not really improved, it has just made some small, and ultimately meaningless, concessions to address a small number of complaints. The result is an awkward juxtaposition of UI paradigms that just makes things worse.

I see a lot of harping on here about how geeks should just accept it. Why? Why should I accept this inferior bullshit that malevolently decides to randomly screw with me when I'm trying to actually get things done?

I can accept change when it is change for the better, which this is not. Look, I'm sure it's perfectly fine for dicking around on Faceshitstatwat and other pointless endeavors of vanity and self-aggrandizing, but isn't Microsoft forgetting something? Y'know, like... the people who actually do the production work to make all this stuff happen?

Wrong approach for PCs

[siege72]

I'm running Windows 8.1 now, with StartIsBack to make desktop mode behave like a real computer. I was willing to give metro/modern a chance, until I tried to use Calculator. The "Modern" version opens fullscreen, with a small calculator window in the center. So much for being able to use it to add the numbers in another window! (The desktop version behaves correctly) Windows 8.1 changed a decently powerful desktop into a crappy tablet. Using _any_ of the utilities to return the start menu/desktop functionality can fix Microsoft's mistake.

Re:Wrong approach for PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm running Windows 8.1 now, with StartIsBack to make desktop mode behave like a real computer.

I was willing to give metro/modern a chance, until I tried to use Calculator. The "Modern" version opens fullscreen, with a small calculator window in the center. So much for being able to use it to add the numbers in another window! (The desktop version behaves correctly)

Windows 8.1 changed a decently powerful desktop into a crappy tablet. Using _any_ of the utilities to return the start menu/desktop functionality can fix Microsoft's mistake.

Try running skype some time. The stupid thing runs fullscreen on W8 and won't allow rightclicking. I forget exactly what that prevented me from doing when I visited the user, but it was a major pain for managing accounts.

You guys will rage along when you notice how prevalent browser / OS detection is. It tries to prevent you from downloading the REAL application, and you're redirected to the local Metro app or the app stores. Outside of Windows 8, this can also be a pain when you're trying to dowload ALTERNATIVE versions of a program, be it because your 64bit native is a failure, or not compatible with X plugin or full browser, or you just need to test IE 7 but not 10, and can't get rid of the redirects nudging you to bleeding edge.

A marginal improvement on a poor OS

[horza]

My wife has Windows 8.1 which installed itself last night without asking on her new ultrabook with Windows 8. It's a pretty unusable OS. The tiled front screen is full of spam with no obvious way to remove anything. No obvious way to shut it down. I gave up working out how to uninstall software. The new added Start button is a help but the whole UI experience is awful. Also Chrome is messed up out of the box, everything looks blurred compared to IE, but fixable through some options. They have a LONG way to go to make it run on a laptop. I can understand people upgrading to Windows 7, it will be a while before iterations make Win8 usable.

Phillip.

Re:A marginal improvement on a poor OS

[SternisheFan]

http://www.howtogeek.com/18415...

I said other than Samsung

[tepples]

only Samsung devices honor that flag. Use a non-Samsung device or an app by someone who doesn't have a Samsung device on which to test, and it's all maximized all the time.

My Galaxy Note II can do that.

I already mentioned your Galaxy Note II. Let me know when the majority of new Android tablets from more than one major manufacturer support multi-window mode.

Let me know when I can buy such a device

[tepples]

I admit I'm nudging the goalposts, but let me know when Ixonos Multi-Window starts shipping on Android devices sold in North America and Europe, or when Android's window management becomes configurable enough that end users can install replacement window managers the way they install replacement launchers.

Use Linux

[stooo]

Today, Linux and Libreoffice is a better alternative than Windows and MS Office...
Not that the usability of the linux desktop linux went up, no, it ramained at a good level, it's more the useability of MS products who s(t)inks dramatically.

Re:"1.5 decades"... who talks like that?

[Hognoxious]

When you use a smaller number of larger units it always sounds more exponential.

Re:There is no reason you HAVE to use the cloud.

[denis-The-menace]

Please tell me how you installed Windows 8.1 on an existing Windows 8 box and I'll agree with you.

Windows 8.1

[Anonymous Coward]

This is absolutely horrible! They couldn't upgrade to Windows XP, they had to change the whole format to Windows 7, 8 and 8.1. All three stink! Thank you Mr. Gates for nothing. Your product stinks and never will I purchase another Windows product. I could be here all day complaining about this garbage. There is no reason for such a drastic change from XP. Just for starters, try playing a REGULAR game of solitare. Where the Hell do you find that? The answer......you don't. That's just the begining. I could go on forever. From now on I'll spend the extra $$$ and purchase a Mac like I should have done this time. Windows 8.1 sucks!