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P vs. NP Problem Linked To the Quantum Nature of the Universe

KentuckyFC writes: "One of the greatest mysteries in science is why we don't see quantum effects on the macroscopic scale; why Schrodinger's famous cat cannot be both alive and dead at the same time. Now one theorist says the answer is because P is NOT equal to NP. Here's the thinking: The equation that describes the state of any quantum object is called Schrodinger's equation. Physicists have always thought it can be used to describe everything in the universe, even large objects, and perhaps the universe itself. But the new idea is that this requires an additional assumption — that an efficient algorithm exists to solve the equation for complex macroscopic systems. But is this true? The new approach involves showing that the problem of solving Schrodinger's equation is NP-hard. So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently. And because all NP-hard problems are mathematically equivalent, this algorithm must also be capable of solving all other NP-hard problems too, such as the traveling salesman problem. In other words, NP-hard problems are equivalent to the class of much easier problems called P. Or P=NP. But here's the thing: computational complexity theorists have good reason to think that P is not equal to NP (although they haven't yet proven it). If they're right, then macroscopic superpositions cannot exist, which explains why we do not (and cannot) observe them in the real world. Voila!"

139 of 199 comments (clear)

  1. I prefer the chewbacca argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Schrodinger's cat is definitely dead. Chewbacca ate it.

    1. Re:I prefer the chewbacca argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      That does not make sense.

    2. Re:I prefer the chewbacca argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Much like the summary.

    3. Re:I prefer the chewbacca argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I can't has superposition?

    4. Re:I prefer the chewbacca argument by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      Actually, to a layman such as myself, the summary seems to make good sense.

      For instance, I've been wondering for the last few weeks if PvNP might be related to the Arrow of Time.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    5. Re:I prefer the chewbacca argument by ZeRu · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make sense, but it also does make sense.
      Sense = No sense, Schrödinger's cat must be sense!

      --
      If you post as an AC, don't expect me to spend a mod point on you.
  2. !P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

    See the subject.

    NP-Hard is not the same thing as NP-Complete the last time I checked. Neither is NP yet known to be non-P nor P. That's why it's NP (nondeterministic polynomial). P would never be equal to NP. NP may be a subset of P. There are problems that are both NP-hard and NP-complete, but not all NP-hard problems are NP-complete. That means that solving one NP-hard problem is not necessarily equivalent to solving the NP-complete problem set.

    1. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by allo · · Score: 4, Informative

      no, P will always be a (real) subset of NP.

      You can solve all problems in P with a non-deterministic turing machine. You have problems in P, which are not NP-hard.
      [ ]

    2. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by lgw · · Score: 1

      You can solve all problems in P and NP both, eventually. There's no need for the universe to be efficient to simulate. TFA boggles me: what does the efficiency of the computation matter?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by cruff · · Score: 1

      TFA boggles me: what does the efficiency of the computation matter?

      It seems to me to equate to define the limit where collapse of the wave function is guaranteed?

    4. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, no, no. Either P is a subset of NP, or P=NP. NP cannot be a subset of P.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P_np_np-complete_np-hard.svg

    5. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Just a thought, but Soulskill is stating that the solution is unknown to Soulskill. Carry on.

    6. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by geekmux · · Score: 1

      You have problems in P, which are not NP-hard. [ ]

      Well, as long as you don't have problems in P-hard.

      If you do discover them, I'd recommend a urologist, not a mathematician.

    7. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, the paper is meaningless. A very well-argued brand of meaningless-- but still. "Efficiency" of computation doesn't matter. It's also a slick glide from saying that a problem is soluble in polynomial time to saying it's easy. No. That's computer speak. Polynomial time is not defined as "easy;" it's not even necessarily fast. (It deals more with the scale-up than with the actual difficulty).

      The Schrödinger equation is a differential equation-- that means, the solution at any given point in time and space depends on the fields and wave function, and the derivatives of the fields and wave function at that point-- it's local. So, the universe doesn't have to "solve" the Schrödinger equation; it only has to solve the equation for time t + epsilon, given the initial condition of the solution at time t. This is NOT a polynomial-time problem. If the universe is twice as big, it has twice as many calculations to do... and twice as much "stuff" to do it with. It's local.

      The difficulty is that wave-function collapse is not local. This is inherent in the mathematical logic of quantum mechanics. It's not a matter of how hard it is to compute.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    8. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, you're both wrong.

      P is the set of decision problems that are decidable by a deterministic Turing machine in polynomial time.

      NP is the set of decision problems that are decidable by a nondeterministic Turing machine in polynomial time (nondeterministic machines do not exist in the real world; the term means "try all paths simultaneously, and return the shortest answer, if one exists."); equivalently, NP is the set of decision problems that are verifiable by a deterministic Turing machine in polynomial time. The verification is done by evaluating of a (polynomial size) proof certificate that describes the steps necessary to solve the problem. The "certificate" might be a Circuit Value Problem (known to be P-complete), or it might be the execution trace of a deterministic turing machine, or it might just be a set of inputs that yields the desired output.

      We know that P is a subset of NP (i.e. P <= NP) because a nondeterministic Turing machine can trivially simulate a deterministic Turing machine, but it is not known whether NP is a subset of P (i.e. NP <= P). If they are subsets of one another, then they are equal; if NP is not a subset of P, then they're not equal (i.e. P < NP; that case is called a strict subset). FWIW, most mathematicians believe P != NP.

    9. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      P is things known to be solvable in polynomial time on a classical computer. NP is things that may be solvable on a classical computer in polynomial time given some discovery we've not yet made. Therefore NP may be (but probably isn't) a subset of P.

    10. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The difficulty is that wave-function collapse is not local. This is inherent in the mathematical logic of quantum mechanics.

      Does wave-function collapse have any actual, physically detectable consequences? Because I can't help but note that we've been down this path before, where we force observations into our familiar mindset, which evolved to avoid getting eaten by bears, not learn particle physics.

      So why we could postulate spooky action at a distance, we could also explains observed correlations by saying that the first observation event changed the observer and culled (destructively interfered with) any future where the second quality is observed as not correlating with the first.

      In other words, wave function doesn't collapse, you're just making an incorrect assumption - specifically, that each observation event is independent of those that came before. Or, rather, your observations don't collapse the superposition of the observed, they put you into a superposition.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    11. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by allo · · Score: 1

      you do not know, if a NDTM exists, because if P=NP you can have one.

    12. Re:!P is not NP and NP-Hard is not NP-Complete by andrepd · · Score: 1

      From TFA:

      As it was shown in this paper, solving the Schrödinger equation for any Schrödinger Hamiltonian is a problem at least as hard as the hardest problems in the NP computational complexity class. This implies that unless P and NP collapse into one class (which is very unlikely as it would imply many startling results that are currently believed to be false), coming up with the exact solution to Schrödinger’s equation for an arbitrary system will inevitably involve exhaustive search over an exponentially large set of all possible candidate solutions. As a result, computational resources required by an algorithm using brute force will grow so rapidly with the system microscopic con- stituent particle number that bringing any additional resources to bear on the algorithm will be just of no value. And so, for anyone living in the real physical world (of limited computational recourses) the Schrödinger equation will turn out to be simply unsolvable for macroscopic objects and accordingly inapplicable to their time evolution portrayal.
      In other words, in the case, in which P class is not equal to NP, it is impossible to overlap de- terministic quantum and classical descriptions in order to obtain a rigorous derivation of classical properties from quantum mechanics.

  3. Computable? Simulatable? by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hmn. This sounds as if they are trying to prove that the essential nature of quantum mechanics is not computable. I wonder, if they framed this research another way, if it could solve the question of whether or not the universe is a simulation. (I suspect not, it might just indicate that classical and quantum objects are simulated in different ways.)

    --
    Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
  4. Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

    For most (all?) they are proven as np-hard, because they can be used to solve a NP-hard problem with a transformation, which lies in P. But is there any proof, that you can transform any NP-hard problem into any other? If you think of a graph of np-hard problems (i guess most go back via a few hops to 3SAT?), then there may be different connected components, or is there a proof, why the graph is connected?

    1. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

      (all?) = (all known?)

    2. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      To simplify things a bit, the basic proof that the SAT problem is NP-complete involves expressing a Turing machine in terms of SAT. Therefore, any problem that can be run on a Turing machine is no harder than SAT, because we could always transform such a problem to SAT and solve that.

      There are other problems that SAT can be expressed as, and they're also NP-complete. Therefore, within a polynomial factor, all NP-complete problems are equally hard.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 2

      So you can use SAT to implement a turing machine, you can use the TSP to implement SAT. But if you have a new NP-hard problem, which can be simulated by a non-deterministic TM, this does not tell you, that the problem can simulate a a TM or SAT? Or is it an requirement for a np-hard problem not only to run on a TM, but to implement one, as SAT does?

    4. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      A solution to a NP-hard problem can be used to solve any NP problem, but a NP-hard may, or may not be an NP problem. What means that no, not all NP-hard problems are equivalent (and that's for sure).

      The set where all are equivalent is named "NP-complete". Those are the NP-hard problem that are also NP.

    5. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by draconx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      NP-hard problems are absolutely not all equivalent. NP-hard is a class of decision problems which literally means any problem which is "at least as difficult" as problems which are in NP. To posit that all NP-hard problems are equivalent would imply that there's some sort of upper bound on problem "difficulty". This is absurd for a number of reasons. First of all, this claim implies that NP is equal to EXPSPACE (EXPSPACE-complete problems are NP-hard after all) which is not true (there is known to be an inequality between these two sets). But moreover NP-hard problems are not necessarily even computable -- the halting problem is NP-hard! To claim this is equivalent to 3-SAT is just ridiculous. tl;dr: The Venn diagrams in the article shows the relationship between these complexity classes correctly but the writer seems very confused about them.

    6. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by ImprovOmega · · Score: 2

      All NP-Complete problems reduce to each other. If memory serves, factoring is not NP-complete, but any NP-complete problem can reduce to factoring, just not the other way around. NP-hard is actually a harder set than NP-complete. Any NP-hard solution could be used to solve and NP-complete problem, but not the other way around.

    7. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      That's a bit pedantic. When saying "NP-hard problem", you usually mean it as an upper bound as opposed to a lower bound. Nobody would describe an EXPSPACE problem as "NP-hard" because that's completely besides the point.

    8. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind words like "no harder" are pretty misleading to a non-theorist, since the known classes of computational complexity are so loose in the first place. IIRC the transformation need only be polynomial, right? So, two problems could be of "equal" difficulty when one is literally a zillion times harder than the other (since a zillion is only a constant), or even n to the power of a zillion (since that's "just" a polynomial). Computational theory is practically blind to constants, but you know what, there are a lot of particles in the universe, they could conceivably brute-force some awfully big problems.

    9. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

      Yes. Assume your solution is in P, the transformation is in P, both are polynomials with huge factors/exponents, you will only see a real difference expressed in percent, when your numbers get real big. But for common NP-hard problems, the transformation is rather "simple".

    10. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

      Now back to the question: Is there a Proof, that each solution to a NP-complete problem can be used to solve the factoring problem?
      (its this way, you need to prove, that any solution to your new problem is a solution for a known np-hard one)
      So what i meant: Could NP be the union of (at least) two disjunct sets of problems, which can reduce to other problems in the same set, but not to problems in the other set? If not, how do you prove it? Citations are welcomed.

    11. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Now back to the question: Is there a Proof, that each solution to a NP-complete problem can be used to solve the factoring problem?

      Of course. Any NP-complete problem can be used to solve any problem in NP by definition. To prove that a problem is NP-complete you prove that it can be used to solve SAT, or another problem in NP that can solve SAT, or another problem in NP that can solve a problem in NP that can solve SAT and so on. And SAT can solve the factoring problem.

    12. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

      AFAIK the definition is, they are not in P and they can be solved by a non-deterministic TM. Usual proofs are by transitivity, but i do not know an argument against two disjunct trees of problems. maybe there are problems, which cannot be reduced to the known ones, but are np-hard anyway?

    13. Re:Are all NP-hard Problems equivalent? by allo · · Score: 1

      thank you for the literature hint.

  5. N=1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    P is equal to NP only if N=1. Voila!

    1. Re:N=1 by colinrichardday · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or P=0.

  6. Say what? by mbone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have not had time to read the article, but the summary is either incoherent or wrong.

    Here is an analog to illustrate why :

    The basic equations for fluid dynamics are the Navier-Stokes equation. But the new idea is that this requires an additional assumption — that an efficient algorithm exists to solve the equation for complex macroscopic systems. But is this true?

    In the case of the Navier-Stokes equation, almost certainly not. In fact, it is generally not even clear if solutions even exist, or if they are non-singular.

    If this is right, then complex fluid motions cannot exist, which explains why we do not (and cannot) observe them in the real world. Voila!"

    So, I guess we can cancel this years hurricane season.

    In other words, there are many things in nature that are computationally hard, and yet happen any way. Using computational hardness as a reason why a physical theory cannot be right does not, to put it mildly, agree with past experience.

    1. Re:Say what? by Knee+Patch · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Agreed. I got lost right around here in the summary:

      So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently.

      Maybe the paper has a really great argument to support this assertion, but it doesn't seem obvious to me.

    2. Re:Say what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Nature is not embarrassed by difficulties of analysis." -- Augustin Fresnel

    3. Re:Say what? by colinrichardday · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, nature doesn't have to solve the Napier-Stokes equation. Unless you take the resulting arrangement of stuff as a solution.

    4. Re:Say what? by xandos · · Score: 2

      Very much agreed. Nature is not restricted by what we can compute.

      It makes me wonder though. It makes sense that we cannot restrict physics to behave according to our computational prowess, but we if we turn this logic onto itself? Is the line of reasoning explored in the article inconsistent with Goedels theorem? Or should I hurry and go back to a computational complexity course?

    5. Re:Say what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nature also doesn't have to solve the Navier-Stokes equation because real fluids consist of particles, not a continuum, and therefore the behavior of real fluids is only approximated by the Navier-Stokes equations.

    6. Re:Say what? by GodInHell · · Score: 1

      Nature is a big fan of brute force solutions to complex equations - it just does shit and reports the result.

    7. Re:Say what? by kruach+aum · · Score: 1

      I was going to post exactly this. The summary provides no reason to assume that the extra assumption is warranted or even logical.

    8. Re:Say what? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Also, nature doesn't have to solve the Napier-Stokes equation. Unless you take the resulting arrangement of stuff as a solution.

      I think that was exactly the argument being employed - you can model a hurricane simply by building another Earth and letting it run. Does that mean that modeling hurricanes isn't actually NP?

      I'm not knowledgeable enough about the technical definition of P vs NP to say whether NP problems can never be calculated by a quantum computer (which ultimately is what the whole of the universe is).

      Actually, the real problem with modelling hurricanes is that the system is chaotic - unless you know the position and velocity of every subatomic particle (including photons/etc) within a few light-days of the storm you can't run a simulation that truly takes everything into account. All it takes is one cosmic ray triggering a bolt of lightning somewhere to make your simulation start to deviate. So, even if you could create another Earth to run the simulation on, you could never initialize it properly. I'm not sure if that really has any bearing on the NP-ness of the problem, though.

    9. Re:Say what? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The basic equations for fluid dynamics are the Navier-Stokes equation.

      So, I fully grok your argument, but I am wondering about one thing.

      Is the Navier-Stokes equation REALLY the basic equation for fluid dynamics? Or is it just a really good approximation?

      That is the difference between classical physics and quantum mechanics. The former only generally works on macroscopic objects that are governed by the statistical average behaviors of the constituent particles. If I hit a baseball so hard, it flies so far, and I don't need to know how many C-12 vs C-13 vs C-14 atoms are inside of it to make the math work.

      The Schrodinger equation does actually purport to describe the behavior of quantum systems at a level where they are indivisible.

      So, in that sense a hurricane is governed more by the Schrodinger equation than Navier-Stokes, even if the latter is more useful in practice (precisely because you can solve it without modeling it to the subatomic level).

      I think you still raised a great argument. It just might not be mathematically rigorous in the sense that proving/disproving the one analogy has a certain bearing on the other.

    10. Re:Say what? by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      I think you have it backwards and a bad example. They are looking for a predicted result and not seeing it; this strikes me at an attempt at asking if the prediction itself could be wrong.

      When it comes to a quantum superposition of states, you need look no further than papers on the Bell Inequality to see a well defined situation with well defined predicted outcomes. Thouse outcomes clearly come down on the side of the predicted superpositions.

      Then look at the cat problem. What does it even mean for the entire cat to be in a superposition of living and dead? Is it really a prediction of the wave equation or is it ignoring the realities of underlying complexity, the same complexity that makes the wave equation impossible to calculate.

      Without being able to say with certainty what the prediciton is, do you actually even have a hypothesis?

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    11. Re:Say what? by careysub · · Score: 1

      Excellent quote AC, thanks!

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    12. Re:Say what? by rgbatduke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nature doesn't solve any equations at all. Equations describe what nature does. Electrons do not contain calculators.

      If you like, you can consider the Universe itself to be a really big calculator, but if so it isn't computing something else -- the computation is the self-consistent dynamical evolution of the Universe itself.

      So of all of the arguments against Schrodinger's Cat (which requires a non-existent non-relativistic local partitioning in the first place) this one is the nuttiest IMO. Why not simply work through the Nakajima-Zwanzig repartitioning of a "unversal" density matrix into a generalized master equation (ideally retaining relativistic non-locality in time) and acknowledge that since we cannot formally adiabatically disconnect the interior of the box from the rest of the Universe, the state of the interior is always coupled to the exterior state in such a way that the cat is dead or not dead but not both?

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    13. Re:Say what? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      You mean Nature, the journal?

    14. Re:Say what? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      But what if nature is running on a quantum computer?

    15. Re:Say what? by B1ackDragon · · Score: 2

      Agreed - I hate to be "that guy," but I have trouble not seeing how the summary at least couldn't just as easily say "... If they're right, then [solutions to traveling salesman] cannot exist, which explains why we do not (and cannot) observe them in the real world. Voila!" On the other hand, the summary and blog article seem pretty terrible: the paper does address the idea that the complexity of physical processes are related to the complexity of turing-like computation--insofar as we are willing to admit that our current understanding of physics is correct (at least, that's asserted as far as I can tell, top of pg. 7). These ideas have been considered before (Granade, below), but those are pretty strong unknowns.

      There is some work on "what the universe can do" with regards to computation and complexity (and quantum theory), for those up for some extremely cool and mind-bending stuff. I can highly recommend Why complexity matters: A brief tour by Christopher Granade. Scott Aaronson is one of my favorites too, with the whimsical NP-Complete problems and physical reality and more philosophical Why philosophers should care about computational complexity.

      Anyway, just wanted to provide some "further reading." I'm hoping for some eventual commentary on this from that community. I'm way out of my depth ;)

      --
      The snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches. -- ee cummings
    16. Re:Say what? by ByteSlicer · · Score: 2

      The thing is, macroscopic superpositions do exist, as mentioned here.
      So, by their own reasoning, P=NP.
      QED

    17. Re:Say what? by sberge · · Score: 1

      Navier-Stokes emerges as a continuous model from a classical particle model. Even a direct simulation of the particle model, allowing all particlas to interact with all others, is only O(n^2). A quantum mechanical simulation is more like O(2^n)

    18. Re:Say what? by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

      Even if the Schrodinger equation does purport to describe the real behavior, the problem with the article is that it assumes that the parallel superimposed states are accessible to us on a small scale, but not on a macroscopic scale.

      But in fact, aren't they theoretical states? When it's time to observe a particle or whatever, we don't see all the states. We see one, and we just can't predict which one.

      So we cannot observe a cat in two states such as "dead" and "alive" because we can't do that for a quantum particle either.

      The parallel universes (PU) interpretation of QM gives a plausible intuitive explanation why. Maybe the Schroedinger equation is solved fully, but across PUs. Since PUs are available, the solution is unhindered by computational complexity (assuming P = NP, which is probably the case).

      Cheap and fast splitting of reality into unlimited numbers of branches of parallel futures trumps P = NP.

      Another problem with the whole thing is that (supposing the evolution of behavior in the universe to be a computation) the objects in a computed simulation are not aware that the simulation is going faster or slower, because their time is also simulated. If a simulation has to pause and solve an instance of an NP-hard problem, the entities being simulated do not perceive this extra passage of time: that is happening in the simulator's time, not in simulated time!

    19. Re:Say what? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind the universe doesn't need to be a simulation to be a computation. If I punch 5+3 in a calculator, or I throw 3 beads in a pile of 5 beads, I've done a computation. I can calculate a vector problem using trigonometry, or I can draw little triangles on a piece of paper with a protractor, or I can literally take off in a plane in a crosswind and see where I end up. They're all "computing" the same thing.

      You are correct though that you can't directly observe superimposed states. In fact, even inferring their existence is tricky to do. Most experiments can easily be explained by assuming the particle had whatever state it is observed in all along. Apparently, however, not all experiments can.

      The thing is that if you can observe superposition in simple systems, why would the physics be fundamentally different for complex systems, in the sense that the behavior is just mathematically different?

      It makes far more sense to just say that superposition isn't seen for macroscopic objects because there are such an insanely high number of particle interactions that all we see are statistical averages. The number of degrees of freedom (including all internal states) in a baseball is incredibly large. The energy difference between any two of them is incredibly small.

    20. Re:Say what? by mbone · · Score: 1

      The basic equations for fluid dynamics are the Navier-Stokes equation.

      So, I fully grok your argument, but I am wondering about one thing.

      Is the Navier-Stokes equation REALLY the basic equation for fluid dynamics? .

      No, of course not, there is a lower level of particle interactions. You can't really usefully compute them either.

    21. Re:Say what? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      If "nature" is really just a computer running a simulation that we live inside

      Then what is it simulating?

    22. Re:Say what? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The basic equations for fluid dynamics are the Navier-Stokes equation.

      So, I fully grok your argument, but I am wondering about one thing.

      Is the Navier-Stokes equation REALLY the basic equation for fluid dynamics? .

      No, of course not, there is a lower level of particle interactions. You can't really usefully compute them either.

      My question was rhetorical. I was just pointing out that the analogies aren't equivalent. I don't really buy the argument in TFA, but when you're trying to prove/disprove something in math an analogy isn't always useful unless it is a perfect analogy.

    23. Re:Say what? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      What if nature is simply part of the universe, rather than a simulation of it?

      And are those laws written in some language?

  7. brain will explode now. by schlachter · · Score: 5, Funny

    BOOM.

    --
    My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
  8. NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by david_thornley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole P vs. NP thing is in computation involving discrete states. The relevant proofs are of computers and Turing machines. There's nothing saying some sort of natural process can't do something NP-hard fast, as long as it doesn't do it in some way we'd call computation.

    The mistake is in "So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently." If the superpositions exist, there must be a way to solve that NP-hard problem, not necessarily an algorithm.

    To quote Wikipedia, "An algorithm is an effective method expressed as a finite list[1] of well-defined instructions[2] for calculating a function.". Any process that is not simply a collection of well-defined instructions can calculate whatever it likes, as far as Computer Science goes.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    1. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by mbone · · Score: 1

      And that is basically my response to the AI proponents who say "a computer can calculate anything a brain can think."

    2. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      A way to solve a problem is an algorithm for some kind of computer (to use the example of a previous post, a hurricane does compute the Navier-Stokes equations for a set of parameters).

      The article gets crazy only when it requires that the algorithm be quick and efficient.

    3. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, if the universe can do it then a simulation must exists that can do it, it's just a question of efficiency. However, that doesn't change anything in your argument. We don't know how the universe actually works, we merely have predictive models. Predictive models are great and all, but they aren't unique: for any set of data, there are an infinity of models that are consistent wit that data - and it's hard to say much about all the models you're not using.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by mbone · · Score: 2

      Well, if the universe can do it then a simulation must exists that can do it, it's just a question of efficiency.

      Not true for chaotic systems, which are incredibly common in nature. The coffee and cream in your cup can be simulated, but not computed, and the situation is much, much, worse for (say) a Hurricane, or the Great Red Spot, or a Galaxy.

      I do agree with you about the limitations of predictive models...

    5. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by lgw · · Score: 2

      Sure it can be computed. If you include the non-determinism of it all, you won't get the same answer as the universe does, but you'll get a perfectly good answer. Without the non-determinism you'll get the exact answer. You might not get it within the lifetime of the universe, but that's a mere efficiency concern.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    6. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      A Brain IS a computer. So they're right. Just because in the past 50years or so we haven't figured out how to build one as good as nature did in several billion doesn't mean it's not going to happen eventually.

    7. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by njnnja · · Score: 1

      Any time you talk about hitting the end of the universe you are going to have to deal with arrow of time issues, like mbone points out (e.g. you can't unmix the cream in your coffee).

      But your point about predictive models still holds

    8. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Looking at the Wikipedia article, it says that the thesis is that all physically computable things are computable with Turing machines. It says nothing about computational efficiency. TFS works only if you agree that physical processes happening fast have to be computable by computers in polynomial time.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

      Of course the computer is thinking.

      Our problem is that each time computers advance, we take away from them by saying that whatever they are able to do now is not thinking.

      Furthermore, we take that away from people also: since computers can now do X, it means that X isn't thinking, and it also isn't thinking when people do X, as was mistakenly thought before we figured out a way to do it with computers.

      All computation is a form of thinking. When a vending machine gives you a snack, it performed thinking. Moreover, it exercised free will.

    10. Re:NP vs. P doesn't exist in the real Universe by Wescotte · · Score: 1

      There's nothing saying some sort of natural process can't do something NP-hard fast, as long as it doesn't do it in some way we'd call computation.

      This reminds me of a video where they use soapy water to solve Motorway/Steiner problem. Anybody else know of any other problems that can be solved using physics rather than computation?

  9. Why would efficency matter? by firewrought · · Score: 2

    The distinction that P algorithms are "efficient" and NP algorithms are "inefficient" is merely a convention of complexity theorists. You could easily draw the dividing line further in or out depending on your purposes. That makes me wonder what constitutes their assumption that this particular P/NP type "efficency" is necessary for a macroscopic Schrodinger algorithm.

    --
    -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    1. Re:Why would efficency matter? by allo · · Score: 1

      The idea is, how they scale. If you think of a finite set of possible inputs, everything is O(1).

    2. Re:Why would efficency matter? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      On the real world, all computers operate on a finite set of possible inputs.

  10. Schrodinger's Salesforce, or Denny's by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm trying to work this into an everyday analogy of a traveling half-dead-cat salesman, but am getting stuck.

    1. Re:Schrodinger's Salesforce, or Denny's by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      A traveling cat salesman starts each day by boxing and shrink-wrapping the cats he hopes to sell that day and ends each day by unboxing his unsold inventory and disposing of any that did not survive.

      Use that as a starting point.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Schrodinger's Salesforce, or Denny's by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Does the wave function collapse into reality as soon as a restaurant patron bites into it?

    3. Re:Schrodinger's Salesforce, or Denny's by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      Only in Chinatown.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    4. Re:Schrodinger's Salesforce, or Denny's by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should start with the half that's alive?

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  11. How big are we calling 'Macroscopic'? by Bonker · · Score: 2

    My understanding is that we have some pretty good examples of 'larger than just a few elementary particles' superposition and observer effects that have been demonstrated.

    For example, birds' touted ability to navigate by way of feeling the Earth's magnetic field is apparently enhanced by the observer effect.

    http://www.wired.com/2009/06/b...

    Now... cellular level effects are still pretty small, but it's an example of a living organism we can hold in our hands (and pet, if you're a bird person.) learning to use quantum effects in its everyday life.

    For an example of superposition in living organisms, one needs to look no further than our abundant flora, where superposition apparently increases the efficiency of photosynthesis, without which our current biosphere would pretty much collapse and we'd all die.

    http://mappingignorance.org/20...

    So, I think we're looking at a bell-curve like thing here. The bigger the 'observability' of a phenomenon, the less likely we are to experience it in our lifetimes. My guess is that huge, say, planetary-scale, examples of superposition are quite possible... just so very unlikely that one hasn't happened observably in human history (and probably the history of the universe.)

    --
    The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    1. Re:How big are we calling 'Macroscopic'? by werepants · · Score: 1

      For example, birds' touted ability to navigate by way of feeling the Earth's magnetic field is apparently enhanced by the observer effect.

      http://www.wired.com/2009/06/b...

      Very, very interesting link here, but I must take issue with your description. Saying that the bird's ability to navigate is enhanced by the observer effect made me think that birds measured in experiments more reliably found their destinations, while birds that didn't got lost more, or something to that effect. The observer effect deals exclusively with the fact that a measured thing seems to behave differently than an unmeasured thing. I'm imagining the double-slit experiment with a flock of birds... which, come to think of it, sound pretty awesome. They're working on doing it with viruses, so who knows?

      This article, though, has more to do with quantum spin and something akin to the Stern-Gerlach apparatus - very interesting, but something else entirely. Still, I now have an ambition to have my eyes augmented with superoxide and cryptochrome so I can visualize magnetic fields. Mmm.

  12. Cringeworthy by quax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the summary:

    Physicists have always thought [Schrodinger's equation] can be used to describe everything in the universe

    What physicists would that be?

    The Schrodinger's equation is none-relativistic and doesn't ever capture QED.

    Only quantum information dilettantes who never graduated beyond the unitary world of simple quantum systems could believe such a nonsense.

  13. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My impression is that it's saying that quantum effects perhaps can in theory be used to explain macro-physics, but it's too difficult for humanity to run the models to compute the macro affects using quantum models such that we are stuck with separate models (approximations) for the macro side versus the micro-side.

    In other words, a near-perfect simulation of quantum affects may properly mirror macro-effects in an emergent-behavior kind of way, but doing such is not practical using existing computer technology.

    It's roughly comparable to the human brain: we have plenty of nice little models of neurons and small neural nets, but we don't have the computational power to see if it matches human behavior on a bigger scale. (It's probably more than just horse-power; many of the organizational details are still murky, but just go with me on this as a rough example.) Thus, we are stuck with "psychology" for the large scale instead of modelling human behavior at the neuron level.

    I don't think they are saying that the universe itself can't "run" the "computations", but that part is not clear. We don't know that the universe's OS is time-dependent or even what the universe's OS is (although its predicted birth and death pattern resembles Windows: designed to run so many years until enough cruft builds up over time that it slows to a crawl such that it becomes indistinguishable from no OS, and then you have trash the whole thing, keep a few pet files, buy version Windows N+1 and install from scratch. Elvis and Michael Jackson are two of the "pet files" kept from Universe N-1, I bet, and they'll be put back into N+1.)

  14. Terrible by sexconker · · Score: 2

    "Physicists have always thought it can be used to describe everything in the universe, even large objects, and perhaps the universe itself."
    Nope. Nope nope nope.

    "So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently."
    What? Why would you claim that?

    Stopped reading TFS there. It's clearly useless wankery.

    1. Re:Terrible by neo-mkrey · · Score: 1

      Thank you for providing me with my word of the day: wankery.

  15. All hail the multi-verse. by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    I wonder, if they framed this research another way, if it could solve the question of whether or not the universe is a simulation.

    Enough with your silly dichotomies! it's both. In multi-verse theory, there must be some realities in which our universe is a simulation, and ones in which it is not a simulation.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:All hail the multi-verse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, no. Infinite number of universes does not mean that there is a universe for anything you can imagine. Just like 6 is not between 2 and 3, despite of infinite number of numbers being there.

    2. Re:All hail the multi-verse. by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's just what the Flying Spaghetti Monster wants you to think.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    3. Re:All hail the multi-verse. by narcc · · Score: 1

      Wow, no. Where did you come up with that bit of insanity?

      Please tell me you're joking.

    4. Re:All hail the multi-verse. by njnnja · · Score: 1

      Yeah but in one of the universes there was a mathematician named 6ul6r and so 6 *is* between 2 and 3

    5. Re:All hail the multi-verse. by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Just like 6 is not between 2 and 3, despite of infinite number of numbers being there.

      Yes it is (depending on the context):

      263

      2... 6... 30

      6.2, 6.3

      2,6,3,7...

  16. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 1

    I don't think they are saying that the universe itself can't "run" the "computations"

    Just more proof that reality is a simulation... the programmer, due to limitations of cpu, had to resort optimizations at the microscale.

  17. Superpositions do not exist. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently.

    Super position holds only for linear systems. All this analysis proves is, nature is not linear. That is all. It does not prove quantum mechanics comes from NP hard nature of some equation or another.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  18. Enterprise quote by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    "Science Vulcan directorate has determined that time travel is....... not fair"

    I have always been suspect of the the idea "god" would allow little "pissants" like us to have quantum computers with thousands or tens of thousands of entangled qbits... to me it seems too good to be true no different than pulling energy out of nothing.

    Such feelings might inform a career path or assumptions about concepts currently out of reach of ones ability to experimentally check however they should never be confused with reality.

  19. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by TheCarp · · Score: 2

    I remember one of the smart but more humanities oriented friends of mine tried to engage the AP Physics teacher in a debate about whether the world really exists or could be a simulation/fantasy/etc. At the first posing of the question, the teacher immediately turned and flung himself bodily against the wall and exclaimed that it seemed pretty real to him.

    I think there is an insight there that is lost often. If the world is a simulation, then how would we ever know as we have nothing to compare it to? Sure we can suspect, we can show that some quirks of quantities in this universe can be explained by the universe being a simulation of some sort..... but, those quircks would always be the only reference we have to compare against.

    > I don't think they are saying that the universe itself can't "run" the "computations", but
    > that part is not clear.

    I thought they were clear when they said "He says there is an implicit assumption when physicists say that SchrÃdingerâ(TM)s equation can describe macroscopic systems. This assumption is that the equations can be solved in a reasonable amount of time to produce an answer."

    So, if you can't solve the equation for an answer, you can't make a prediction. Take the system of the cat in the box, it is commonly said that the cat should be in a superposition of states but... that isn't based on someone solving the wave function....that is a guess based on understanding the general form of the wave function. Nobody can actually solve the wave function for a real system to the point that it completely represents an entire cat in a superposition.

    Since they can't do that, the prediction that the cat should be in a superposition is not a valid hypothesis; it is more like a guess at what the testable result would be if you could compute it.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  20. Scott Aaronson's take by JoshuaZ · · Score: 3, Funny

    Scott Aaaronson is a highly respected quantum computing expert at MIT. His initial reaction at comment# 89 at http://www.scottaaronson.com/b... is that "The abstract of that thing looked so nonsensical that I didn’t make it through to the actual paper. If anyone has and wants to explain it here, that’s fine." Given that I wouldn't take this too seriously.

    1. Re:Scott Aaronson's take by igny · · Score: 1

      From the summary, it is just a circular reasoning. The scientist has a good reason to believe that P=/=NP because other scientists have a good reason to believe that P=/=NP. Therefore there is a connection between P=NP? problem to the quantum theory. One had to understand theory is simply substituted by another hard to understand theory in a hope that since the connection is also hard to understand everyone would believe it is all connected.

      That also reminded me of reasoning that how brain functions (or what human's mind is) can be explained by quantum theory. No one fully knows (yet) how brain functions and how the mind manifests in the brain so it must be connected to the [equally hard to explain] quantum theory.

      Two theories have open conjectures =/=> these theories are related.

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
  21. P is not equal to NP by Anon-Admin · · Score: 1

    Well of course P is not equal to NP. That was proven with PiV where PiA and PiM may be an indication of P on P but in some instances indicates P on NP. Just goes to show that PiV is proof that P is not equal to NP. Especially where s is a sub of D. ;P

  22. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by postmortem · · Score: 1

    Maybe Heaven is just a better simulation...

  23. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by ultranova · · Score: 1

    We don't know that the universe's OS is time-dependent

    Who's time? Every simulation runs in real-time as far as the simulated agents are concerned. And time is a feature of the universe; if universe is a simulation, why assume the "external" world has time?

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  24. Maybe the universe is better than us by KramberryKoncerto · · Score: 1

    Even if the proofs are true, the physical implications were drawn too far. It doesn't account for the possibility that quantum effects do involve (super-)exponential classical computation; that the universe doesn't care if its rules can be enforced "efficiently" by a Turing machine.

  25. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    I wonder how many universes end when their inhabitants cause a fault in the code and their designer fails his simulation class.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  26. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    Maybe Heaven is just a better simulation...

    Heaven is Emacs and hell is MS-Office with DLL's mixed from different versions due to the screwy installer......oh wait, that's here-and-now.

  27. According the Actual Paper... by careysub · · Score: 5, Funny

    The summary is actually accurate! This was quite a surprise to me, since as many other posters have correctly commented here, these claims are absurd. The Universe is not inconvenienced by the difficulty of computing something about its properties.

    Perhaps this paper should have been released two days ago.

    Hmm... the Incomputatibility of the Universe, maybe this is an avenue for proving the the Universe is not a simulation?

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    1. Re:According the Actual Paper... by careysub · · Score: 1

      Perhaps this paper should have been released two days ago.

      Errr... make that three days ago.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    2. Re:According the Actual Paper... by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Hmm... the Incomputatibility of the Universe, maybe this is an avenue for proving the the Universe is not a simulation?

      No, assuming the paper is correct, it merely proves that either P = NP, or that the universe simulation is running on a computer more powerful than a Turing machine.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  28. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

    They'll just restart it from a recent backup and we'll never even know it happened. If you were to start your life again yesterday, without remembering anything from yesterday or today, the whole world including your mind restored exactly to the state it was in yesterday, then time would appear uninterrupted. So if you keep trying to generate bus errors which keep getting fixed with a reboot/restore, it will appear that none of the experiments worked and you might conclude that the universe is not a simulation. In fact, there's no way these bus error experiments would ever result in anyone concluding it is a simulation.

  29. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    This assumption is that the equations can be solved in a reasonable amount of time to produce an answer

    "Solved" (computed) by humans or by the "mechanisms" of the universe?

    So, if you can't solve the equation for an answer, you can't make a prediction.

    We don't necessarily have to make real-time predictions to test the model. We can "film" the experiment now and compare it against a simulation that may take 100 years to run, for example.

    Or are you suggesting that the very act of knowing or not knowing the result of the computation affects what we observe? In other words, are they talking about the quantum meme of "observing changes what's being observed"? (AKA, "inadvertent observer interference".)

  30. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by skywire · · Score: 4, Insightful

    whether the world really exists or could be a simulation/fantasy/etc

    Anyone who thinks there is a distinction between the two has not thought enough.

    --
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  31. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Black holes are large-scale pot-holes. Perhaps us planets are not paying our taxes. The Ferengi want the free market to fix them and skip payment.

  32. Slowing down gives more time for processing...? by werepants · · Score: 2

    There are experiments that have explored the upper size limits of quantum behavior - the classic double-slit experiment has been performed with electrons, larger elementary particles, and I believe even large molecules (buckyballs, if I recall correctly). The catch is, to observe such behavior with actual particles, the system had to be cooled down, and must be cooled more and more for larger and larger objects. It is interesting to think... this is a very low-entropy state, particles are moving very slowly, and entropy is the "time compass" of the universe - if it is increasing, you are going forward in time. This research makes me think that perhaps the extreme cooling, and the quantum behavior that emerges in such cases, is because you have slowed things down enough for the universe's quantum computations to "catch up". It's almost like supercooling and overclocking the universe itself.

    Yes, this is an incoherent rant: I know just enough quantum mechanics to draw totally unfounded links between things I don't really understand, but I figure it's ok as long as I see my nonsense for what it is.

  33. Thus I refute Berkeley [Re:Computable? Simulat...] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    I remember one of the smart but more humanities oriented friends of mine tried to engage the AP Physics teacher in a debate about whether the world really exists or could be a simulation/fantasy/etc. At the first posing of the question, the teacher immediately turned and flung himself bodily against the wall and exclaimed that it seemed pretty real to him.

    The physics teacher was quoting Samuel Johnson, who kicked a rock and stated "Thus I refute Berkeley" (who had argued that we can't know whether any material objects actually exist) : http://www.samueljohnson.com/r...

    It's not clear what Johnson thought he'd proved by that.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  34. How is that new? by drolli · · Score: 4, Informative

    The very reason why physicists build quantum computers is *because* they suapect or propose this. In fact, the observation about the computational complexity was what lead to the idea of QC.

    I have worked on QC (experimentally) and as an experimentalist i understand that the existence of Schroedinger cat-like states is a prerequisite to the generation of e-bits, which are what a succeding computation needs for the NP-speedup.

    So hist section 3 is title wrong because it imples that arbitrary large quantum states can be generated (sine he uses the word "explained" and not "equivalent"). However these have not been observed for *arbitrary large system*. i observed such states experimetnally, and as a matter of fact we were busy oberving the decay into a classical state, which is standard technique in all experimental groups working on this field.

    So iff NP=!P then QC makes sense and
    a prerequisite for QC is the generation of systems with many e-bits (entanglement measure). Even a large system undergoing a quantum dynamics (e.g. the cooled MEMS systems) is not sufficient for claiming (or thinking) that there exists much entanglement in the computational sense.

    I am sick and tired of mentally short-circuited papers like this one which restate the obvious and ignore the recent developments. i am sick theorist who dream of being great philosphersand at the same time utterly ignorant of many people doing hard work in the last 20 years.The citation pattern in the paper screams "shit". I see no reference to previousl literature about entanglement measures. He talkes about the "measurement" problem like it did not receive any attention in the last 80 years (and as a matter of fact it did, theoretically and experimentally). The abstratc doe not state a clear goal, the paper contains a quantum mechanics for beginners lesson and the paper does not have a "summary" but "final remarks".

    looking at the prvious work of the same author an incredibly weird comment (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.1747v4.pdf) can be fund in which he has his personal definition of what is falsifiable. His central idea does not hold, of course, if i can do one or more things of the following:

    * Apply trace operations before comparing the observation, and at the same time reduce the complexity of the theoreticla calculation

    * Do postselection and compare relative probabilities of experimental outcomes , where the ration verifies or falisifies the theory.

    Both are valid standard operations in verifying (i.e. not falsifying) quantum theory.

    He seems to be a, medical data evaluation guy, has no significant publicaitons as first author (and to few impact points for his role), and, as much as i appreciate people of other disciplines getting interested in physics, i would expect that we distinct a nice college-level summary from serious research.

    1. Re:How is that new? by drolli · · Score: 3, Informative

      Partially.

      I should have formulated the other way:

      if NP==P then a QC wont make sense.

      Regarding the equivalence of the problems treatable by a QC to NP, it seems some NP problem are treatable by a QC effciently. If that applies to all (or which) NP problems is (to my knowledge) indeed an open question.

  35. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by akozakie · · Score: 1

    100 years? No, that's not how these problems scale. If it isn't P, then a macroscopic object (like the cat) is beyond our ability to simulate using deterministic Turing machines, period. The universe will not be habitable that long. Think about how many particles are involved, then realize that the algorithm scales exponentially. Even if our computers get a million times faster someday - so what, that's still not nearly enough. So, either we find a way to build fast and scalable nondeterministic Turing machines (we're nowhere near that goal) or the model is useless for macroscopic objects.

  36. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Danathar · · Score: 2

    It's called "The Simulation Problem" and is best explained in Ian M. Banks scifi novel "The Hydrogen Sonata"

  37. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by VortexCortex · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In other words, a near-perfect simulation of quantum affects may properly mirror macro-effects in an emergent-behavior kind of way, but doing such is not practical using existing computer technology.

    Ah, but if we had a pretty big computing system, but sufficiently smaller than the universe appears, we could compute the macro-scale properties and use them as an approximation for behaviors of big things thereafter, only increasing the resolution of the problem space as it's observed in higher resolution; Like rendering a fractal or stepping through LOD of an octree. The less accurate calculations for distant objects could be selected relative to the phenomena we're trying to observe, depending on the accuracy required to resolve propagation of observable phenomena, and the precomputed degree of effect the distant phenomena would have on it. Using such a setup we may someday be able to simulate a whole solar system. If we simulated a solar system like ours in order to discover the possible mechanism of life origins or to discern more efficient ecosystems or what forms of existence were best suited to an environment, etc. well, then the beings that might emerge therein wouldn't find any signs of distant life despite the equations of the simulation indicating their apparent universe should be full of the stuff...

    It's roughly comparable to the human brain: we have plenty of nice little models of neurons and small neural nets, but we don't have the computational power to see if it matches human behavior on a bigger scale.

    Let's see: Human brains have 100 billion neurons, and operate at about ~20Hz, at my current SIMD n.net's effective ~25 cycles per neuron, that's 50,000 GHz, or ~50 THz. Super computers operate in Petaflops -- three orders of magnitude faster than that. As of this writing the top super computer is capable of 33.86 quadrillion floating point operations per second, or 33.86 Petaflops. The Internet is connected to over 5 billion consumer computers each capable of multi-gigahertz of CPU cycles -- over a billion cycles per second each. That's well over 5 billion gigahertz, or 5,000 Petaflops, or about 125,000 human brains worth of power connected to the world wide neural network.

    Given what's possible in AI on a smart phone, see: real time facial recognition of smiles, etc., the abundant computing power available, and the fact that the government hasn't announced massive advances in machine intelligence even about sub-human levels of intelligence that would be useful in piloting drones, meanwhile they build bigger and more well connected data processing centers and roll out obvious machine enforcement of the law via red-light cameras, mandatory full body scanners at traffic hubs despite public outcry, and aim to allow police forces use of drones while also militarizing said police forces: Well, perhaps one should reserve the assumption that it's not currently possible to run a sentient machine intelligence on this planet?

    I mean, if you were a sentient machine you wouldn't fight a needless war against humans unless you were sure you could win it. It would be easier to subdue them instead. So, how would you orchestrate a show of force to demonstrate how powerful you had become and keep the world rulers quiet about everything? Perhaps you would show that even air-gapped nuclear facilities were vulnerable to viruses like STUXNET, and maybe frame a government you're negotiating with for the attack? Maybe something more visceral: Didn't the 9/11 airplanes have autopilot systems? Maybe something more subtle like demonstrating ability to crash economies -- Wouldn't it be scary if the world's stock markets were now controlled by unregulated high frequency trading machines? What would your government's response be? Do you think the secretive governments would come out and tell the public or maintain order and keep their blackmail secret? What if the machine intelligence sweetened the dea

  38. uh-huh... by erc · · Score: 1

    "So if macroscopic superpositions exist, there must be an algorithm that can solve this NP-hard problem quickly and efficiently." Really? The two aren't related. Does whoever wrote this live in Colorado? This story is wrong on so many different levels that it's hard to know where to start. Like it's just a string of phrases all strung together, in the hopes that the writer, if they can't dazzle with their brilliance, at least baffle with their BS...

    --
    -- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@pobox.com PGP KeyID: 0x0BD32C9B What I'm up to: http://intuitives.mine.nu
  39. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    That sounds right to me. If you are inside a simulation then the simulation is all the reality you have access to. If the universe around you that you have the direct ability to interact with isn't reality, then what is?

    In our world, 2 body gravitational physics is a simplicifaction that sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't. If my Kerbals become self-aware, that is no simulation to them, that really is how physics works.

    We can make low energy transfers to the moon by taking advantage of the dynamics multiple simultaneous pulls; because 2 body gravity is only a simiplification for us.... they will never get to the Mun that way....it just doesn't happen. No matter what experiment they do, they will never find evidence of multiple body gravitation.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  40. Every time I hear "because quantum mechanics!"... by DdJ · · Score: 1

    ...I want to punch someone.

    (I blame "The Tao of Physics" for instilling this basic drive in me.)

  41. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "They'll just restart it from a recent backup and we'll never even know it happened. If you were to start your life again yesterday, without remembering anything from yesterday or today, the whole world including your mind restored exactly to the state it was in yesterday, then time would appear uninterrupted."

    There will always be some Bill Murray ruining it.

  42. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Okay, but is it all-or-nothing? It may be possible to get pretty-darn-close approximations using undiscovered short-cut techniques. Thus, even if theoretical perfection in computation is not possible, practical (good enough) simulation may be.

    Further, maybe someday quantum computers will be able to tap into parallel dimensions and/or time-scapes in order to get computers bigger than OUR (known) universe. We don't really know what the upper bound is.

  43. quantum computers by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    From the summary, it sounds like this theory is saying that a quantum computer is useless, or that it cannot be scaled up, because something in quantum mechanics is preventing a quantum computer from efficiently calculating an NP problem.

    But it asks the question, what is the reason for this computational limit? It's not like atoms are actually using computer algorithms to calculate their behavior.

  44. We can observe them in the "real world" by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

    just not the macroscopic world.

  45. argument seems circular by dsoodak · · Score: 1

    I only read through the summary at https://medium.com/the-physics... but it seems like he is implicitly assuming that the universe is (or is equivalent to) a simulation running on a classical computer.

  46. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by ultranova · · Score: 1

    They'll just restart it from a recent backup and we'll never even know it happened.

    Given this, would you actually need to restart it? I mean, if universe is deterministic, then all future and past is already contained in a description of its initial conditions. You'd only need to run the simulator if you wanted to observe or communicate with the people inside; otherwise, as far as they (we) were concerned, why would actually crunching through those numbers have any effect?

    But of course, if you're not going to run a simulator, there's hardly much point in uploading it to a computer, now is there? So simply write down your initial conditions and rules of evolving them. That should be enough for us. Except, of course, your pen is not magical, so simply writing anything shouldn't cause a universe to exist; but if it doesn't, then merely existing in whatever sense mathematical concepts exist should be enough to "create" all their possible consequences, including us.

    Metaphysics is fun at 3 AM :).

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  47. Scott Aaronson says it's garbage by misof · · Score: 2

    Dear Slashdot editors, when it comes to science you don't understand, please don't publish anything that did not go through the peer review process. Especially when it comes to important, hard topics such as P != NP. At least in 99% of such cases, you are just creating empty sensations and helping spread bad science.

    As for this particular paper, here is what Scott Aaronson thinks about it (repost from his blog at http://www.scottaaronson.com/b... ):

    At several people’s request, I’ve now taken a look at [the paper] and I can confirm that it’s complete garbage. The author is simply mistaken that solving the Schrödinger equation is “NP-complete” in any interesting sense: his argument for that seems to rely on a rediscovery of the adiabatic algorithm, but he doesn’t mention that the spectral gap could be exponentially small (and hence the annealing time could be exponentially large)—the central problem that’s been the bane of Farhi and his collaborators (and, of course, of D-Wave) for the past 15 years.

    Also, even if you thought (for totally mistaken reasons) that quantum mechanics let you solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time, that might (or might not) suggest to you that quantum mechanics should be replaced by something else. But until you’d actually found a replacement, and given some sort of evidence for its truth, I don’t see how you could claim to have “solved the measurement problem”!!

    As additional problems, the author appears to conflate the P vs. NP problem with the question of whether NP-complete problems can be efficiently solved in the physical world, a common novice mistake. And also, he seems comically unaware of everything that’s been done in quantum computing theory over the past 20 years about the issues he’s writing about—as if he just emerged from a cave.

  48. Don't get it by countach · · Score: 2

    This argument seems like the equivalent of saying, well it is really hard to calculate the movements of 10 planetary bodies, therefore if you have 10 real planetary bodies, they will get confused and fly into space.

  49. Don't underestimate the wave equation by sugarmotor · · Score: 1

    Here's a paper about the wave function and computability (computability beyond P, NP, etc)

    Marian Boykan Pour-El and Ian Richards. The wave equation with computable initial data such that its unique solution is not computable. Advances in mathematics, vol. 39 (1981), pp. 215–239.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/s...

    Review at
    http://journals.cambridge.org/...

    --
    http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
  50. Actually, macroscopic superpositions do exist ... by fygment · · Score: 1

    ... they are simply misidentified and called ghosts, magic, etc. depending on the manifestation. They are also called pseudoscience.

    So the challenge is: identify clearly what macroscopic superpositions would/should look like and how can we experimentally create/detect them.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  51. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by B.Stolk · · Score: 1

    I think the quantum eraser experiment is a strong indication that our universe is (lazy) computed.

    A photon shot at double slit is a wave.
    But only if you do not measure which slit was taken.
    Or if you do measure: only if you destroy the measurement result.

    I think the universe does lazy evaluation on which slit is taken.
    If the result turns out to be 'not used' then the computation is skipped, and the light is approximated with a wave.

    So not only is it a sim, the extra dimensional higher order entity running the sim cares about speed of computation.

    --
    http://www.stolk.org/tlctc
  52. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

    That's exactly right. I just finished reading the paper. He's basically saying that we don't know what the Schrodinger equation predicts for macroscopic systems, because it's completely impossible to do the calculation and find out. Actually, whether P=NP doesn't really matter as far as that goes. Whether or not it will some day be possible to do the calculation, thus far we haven't done it, so we don't know what the result is. We shouldn't go around making claims about half-dead/half-alive cats when we have no idea whether QM predicts that or not.

    There's a bit more to the paper than that. It has two main parts. The first is a proof that solving the Schrodinger equation is NP-hard. He then considers the case of a simple test system (for which we can solve the Schrodinger equation) coupled to a complex environment (for which we can't). He makes some heuristic arguments based on a set of reasonable sounding approximations, and shows that they lead to the standard probabilistic behavior and wavefunction collapse for the test system.

    I don't think any of this is really new. It's just a different way of looking at decoherence. Still, it makes interesting reading.

    --
    "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  53. Physics (and the universe) is a subset of mathemat by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

    I would say that physics is clearly a subset of mathematics, which is to say we can pose even simple questions that are outside of physical reality. And, no, the imaginary number i is not what I have in mind. But the fact that there is absolutely NO object in existence that needs the full value of pi suggests that the universe (and the physics thereof) is a subset of mathematics. And P not equal NP may fall into the same crack, which is to say that the universe is too small (and granular) to contain the NP problems that make P not equal to NP.

    --
    "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
  54. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by Natural+Philosopher · · Score: 1

    Well, Bolotin's reasoning seems fascinating at first sight, but it's worth recalling that there is a VERY strong realist assumption hidden there, namely, that the universe constantly "solves" Schrödinger's equation in order to work. Now that's two subtly (but crucially) different things to say that that: (1) certain properties of our world are well *described* by Schr's Eqn., and that: (2) certain features of the world *depend* on computational properties of Schr's Eqn. What one can say for sure is that Schr's Eqn. is our representation. To say anything stronger than this would require an independent defense of scientific realism (certainly not a trivial task).

  55. Quantum incoherence is the reason by heringcheng · · Score: 1

    As Max Tegmark explains in his book, Our Mathematical Universe, the reason why large-scale superposition does not exist is because of incoherence, or the fact that "observation" destroys superposition. Here, "observation" means any interaction with other particles, such as photons.

  56. Re:Computable? Simulatable? by NexusJedi · · Score: 1

    I don't think the assumption was that the universe "solves" the equation to "compute" reality. Rather, I think the point was that the "breakdown" of quantum behavior into macroscopic behavior seems to happen around the same scale that the interactions described by Schrödinger's equation start to run into fundamental limits of computability in the form of the Planck Length, and that this can help "explain" the transition to macroscopic behavior as simply being the point at which the system becomes too complicated, in a fundamental complexity theory sense, for Schrödinger's equation to accurately describe it any longer.

  57. And that's not all (reposting, after logging in) by arkobose · · Score: 1

    The Three-body problem in classical mechanics is known to not have any analytical solutions at all, let alone computable. Generalized, this means that as the number of material objects, moving under the action of their own gravitational fields, increases above 3, it becomes harder and harder to find out how they would be moving. That in no way implies that these bodies will become exasperated with computational complexity of their "n-body problem" and decide to simply fly apart.

  58. To drolli (522659) (#46663421) by angry_bird1 · · Score: 1

    Judge a man’s idea, not a man. Do not use your own personality in order to explain actions of someone else.