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Why the Sharing Economy Is About Desperation, Not Trust

An anonymous reader writes "Wired recently ran a cover story about the sharing economy — shorthand for the rise of peer-to-peer rental services like Lyft and Airbnb — which they call a cultural and economic breakthrough. They say it has ushered in a 'new era of Internet-enabled intimacy.' An article at New York Magazine has another theory: that it arose because of the weakness in the real economy. Quoting: 'A huge precondition for the sharing economy has been a depressed labor market, in which lots of people are trying to fill holes in their income by monetizing their stuff and their labor in creative ways. In many cases, people join the sharing economy because they've recently lost a full-time job and are piecing together income from several part-time gigs to replace it. In a few cases, it's because the pricing structure of the sharing economy made their old jobs less profitable. (Like full-time taxi drivers who have switched to Lyft or Uber.) In almost every case, what compels people to open up their homes and cars to complete strangers is money, not trust.'"

331 comments

  1. tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    tl;dr Marx was right that an over-production would leave the majority in poverty, and the only economically sustainable solution is sharing. It's not "desperation", but an inevitable and rational necessity.

    1. Re:tl;dr by Beck_Neard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Marx talked of productivity increases, but what Marx didn't live to see was how dramatically productivity would actually increase over the twentieth century, to the point where so many paid workers would simply be laid off. About the wealth gap, he turned out to be more right than he could have ever foreseen.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    2. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is not over-production, it is that for some odd reason we see production as the goal of economy. Problem is, the goal is not production, it's selling.

      The goal is cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER! We have to produce cheaper. Cheaper than the competitor, and even if there is no competitor, we have to produce cheaper. Not to sell it cheaper, as the market theory would demand, but to increase the profit margin. But hell, even if we WERE selling it cheaper, it would not make a difference. Because whether you sell something for 100 or 50 does not matter if the prospective buyer has NOTHING.

      And that's the problem of our economy today. We're not lacking production. Far from it. There is by no means a shortage of anything. Anything but money on the consumer side, that is. We cannot SELL. Because there simply is nobody to BUY. Not that people wouldn't want our crap, if this whole sharing "culture" shows us anything then that there is a damn lot of want. But to turn want into need, money is needed.

      The reason for the economic growth from after WW2 to the 80s was simply that people earned pretty well. Even and especially "unskilled" labor was relatively well paid and people could afford to spend. People even continued to spend after they could not really afford it anymore 'cause their wages didn't keep up with inflation. They borrowed, refinanced, maxed out credit cards... the economy only noticed that things go wrong after that, too, hit the limit.

      And now we're in the shit creek we're in, because even if we started to pay people handsomely, it would take years to even notice since they now first of all would have to pay back their debt. You'd have to recover two decades of overspending, most likely with at least two decades of overearning. And it's very, very unlikely that anyone would want to make that "investment" just to get something as unimportant as the economy back on track.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What would have bothered Marx about the wealth gap is not it's existence, but the way it's disconnected from productivity of the work force. That, and the present forms of lobbying as a form of political capitalism.

    4. Re:tl;dr by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh please, the Industrial Revolution was "the" killer for skilled artisans and craftsmen who were often replaced by unskilled labor operating machinery which incorporated the skill. Being self-employed and providing services directly became much harder, you had to be a worker at a factory because they owned the machinery and reaped the profits. Probably the worst time to be a worker was in the late 1800s and early 1900s when Taylorism was at its peak and it was all about how many seconds operation X took at the assembly line and it was all about dumb replaceable workers you could drag in from the street at subsistence wages.

      It never really changed until Ford doubled the worker's wages in 1914 and from there was the golden age of the "skilled" worker, concepts like Kanban/Lean Manufacturing in the 1950s also focused on small cells of skilled workers providing much higher flexibility and lower defect rates than the big, long assembly lines. Then started a new cycle where the skill those workers had were incorporated into robotics, again forcing us to develop a new set of meta-skills because it can crank out parts with near perfect precision 24x7 and it was back to huge production lines. We still needed a lot of monitoring and repair though, because the first robots were rather dumb and did things rather mindlessly. Now those skills are being incorporated into electronics, and we're again looking for new meta skills. It all comes full circle again and again.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:tl;dr by tomhath · · Score: 2

      The only economically sustainable solution is to have a labor force that matches labor requirements. What Marx didn't foresee was the tremendous medical advances the world has seen in the past 100 years, allowing unsustainable population growth while the need to unskilled labor declines. No amount of sharing, unionization, or wealth transfer will help when there are billions of people with no demand for their labor.

    6. Re:tl;dr by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      America's trade deficit is over $40 billion per month. That is the excess of what we consume over what we produce. In light of that, it is pretty silly to be talking about "over-production".

    7. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over-production has just been globalized - to China.

    8. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Population is peaking. See Hans Rosling.

    9. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent speaks of manufacturing.

      Our economy is not a manufacturing one anymore. What is left of manufacturing has been off-shored or completely automated. The demand for "meta skills" as the parent says, is but a very small fraction of what the demand was before. And as technology improves, the demand for workers decreases.

      Today's economy is services - knowledge workers - and again, all you need is a very small fraction of the people needed before. And that trend is the same: improvements mean less workers. I was watching a guy design and code an inventory system. He was using Visual Studio. To make a long story short, he did in one day what a team of 3 or 4 took a week to do back in the 90s. That's a 75% reduction of workers needed for software development right there. Automation is affecting all workers at all levels; well not the management guys, of course.

      There has been a huge structural change in our economy in the last 15 years or so, and it has left quite a few workers -at all levels - in the dust and it isn't growing fast enough to absorb new workers or the ones marginalized in the crash of '08.

      To look back on the past, even several decades ago, and take comfort that it will work out as it had before is incorrect and short sighted, IMHO. Things that happen in the past do not always happen again. Technology is the variable that is changing the cycle.

    10. Re:tl;dr by udippel · · Score: 1

      The problem is not over-production, it is that for some odd reason we see production as the goal of economy. Problem is, the goal is not production, it's selling.

      This is the best of the statements in your post, and Insightful as such.
      Over-production is actually an empty term, when not seen in conjunction with the rest of the market. The key term here is demand. And what would better be taken into consideration is the term of over-supply. We actually suffer from over-supply. Just drive to your next friendly supermarket, be it in LA, Nairobi, Moscow or Madrid. The shelves are bursting with merchandise. Much more than you can ever consume.Therefore, the value of each item goes down, and implicitly the potential / possible salary for everyone involved in the chain from development / design over manufacturing to distribution.

    11. Re:tl;dr by udippel · · Score: 1

      The only economically sustainable solution is to have a labor force that matches labor requirements.

      Quite so. But that is no more than day-dreaming. Because the labor requirement is going down rapidly, due to productivity increases. AND the labor force [us] is NOT desirous to earn less.
      Combine this with the desire of the labor force [us] to own ever more for ever cheaper, you know where the actual culprit is located. Yep, in the end it is the consumer who wants ever more for ever cheaper with her hat of consumer; and demands ever more salary with her hat as member of the labor force.
      If this is not a vicious circle, then there isn't.

    12. Re:tl;dr by aix+tom · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The debt in "real money" can also fuel the sharing economy. When you have a negative amount of "government credit units", but can get into a sharing community that issues it's own "sharing credit units" so you can start of with a clean slate there. And perhaps even get more return value out of it than with the "official economy" Which might be the only way left to influence the economical direction.

      Since elections don't seem to work any more to change the political direction, the only working answer to "we don't want you to participate as labour in our system because you are to expensive" is a "then we don't want to participate as consumers in your system any longer neither."

    13. Re:tl;dr by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And Smith was right in that there is no such thing as "overproduction." Produce more of a valued good, and the market reacts by lowering the price, opening up more uses for the good. It's a story not just as old as human trade, but as old as life in Earth. When early plants feasted on the carbon dioxide that filled our atmosphere and produced oxygen, a "market" came into being for species that could consume oxygen.

    14. Re:tl;dr by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Over-production has just been globalized - to China.

      There are over a billion people living on a dollar a day. Claiming that we have "over production" at the global level is absurd.

    15. Re:tl;dr by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      over production?

      Over production of what? I swear, people say things without actually engaging their brains. They just repeat things like walking tape recorders or human/parrot hybrids.

      The economic downturn was largely a result of corruption in our banking and political system that lead to the rapid issuing of credit for things people couldn't really afford especially to people that really shouldn't be in the market. This lead to a price inflation which caused people that normally wouldn't have a hard time affording things to go into greater debt simply to keep up. And when the whole thing collapsed, the value of all the homes went down but the debt stayed right where it was... this caused a contraction of spending... etc etc etc.

      Nothing what so ever to do with over production unless you mean an over production of morons and corrupt assholes.

      Marx doubtless said a lot of things that made sense... but economics is more complicated then any one man and the scope of human history is not going to be summed up by das capital.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    16. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has nothing to do with overproduction and everything to do with not being of any use to the rest of the world. Subsistence farming is a dead end.

    17. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right now, the big scare is that we're running into a deflation. No, really. DEflation. Not INflation. Now, considering how bad inflation is (allegedly), deflation must be good, right? Wrong! It's even more feared than inflation.

      Inflation only means that your money gets less valuable. That can be remedied: Simply stop printing money and jack up interest rates. Of course, that's easier said than done, but at least you can in theory do something against it. Deflation is not so easily cured.

      The core problem is that inflation can actually be beneficial for an economy, since it tempts to consumption. If your money is worth less tomorrow than it is today, you better spend it now rather than later. With inflation, people free money into tangible goods, even if they're perishable and not lasting, because even as perishables they're more lasting than money. Deflation causes the opposite. The longer you hold money, the better for you since tomorrow it's going to buy more than it does today.

      I don't think it needs too much of an explanation why this is poison to any economy.

      Now, there are quite a few possible causes for deflation, and a few regulatory instruments that can cure it. In our case, though, there would not be such an instrument. If we really reach the deflation level, we're fucked for good. Game over.

      One possible reason for Deflation is a shortage of money, plain and simple. If there's a shortage of something, it gets more valuable. The easy solution to this is running the printing press. Now, we've tried that and it only made matters worse, because now we have some kind of inflation without eliminating the looming deflation. Mostly because there was no shortage of money.

      Another reason is that the goods available are simply not attractive and people rather hold onto their money than buying what's offered. The cynic in me would say that's dead on, but no. That was the case in the former east bloc occasionally (which actually had a rather curious mix of insane shortages and buttloads of crap nobody wanted), and their money experienced an odd "official" deflation with a rampart "black market" inflation. Not really the case here now either, people would buy.

      The reason for this deflation is actually a shortage of money, but a shortage of money per person. Money is available, but it is pooled. Which is great for investment, but very bad for consumption.

      And we really have NO shortage of investment money. People would love to invest. If you needed any proof of this, the issue of Greek bonds that sold like hotcakes (despite Greece's credit history and its near bankruptcy) just because of the guarantees the EU gave for them is an indicator. They offered just over 5% interest and were fiercely contested. There is plenty of investment money sitting around, desperately looking for an investment opportunity.

      What is missing, and what makes this looming deflation so dangerous, is the lack of consumption money. Deflation is always an indicator of low money velocity. Now, the reason is this time not that people cling to their money and that they don't want to spend it, the reason is simply that they have NO money to spend. Worse, they are in debt. And just like savings, debt also increases with deflation, which would make the whole shit even worse since climbing out of the hole gets more and more difficult.

      What makes this situation so very dangerous is that governments cannot really remedy it. There is very, very little a government could do to regulate it. Their main regulation instruments for inflation, i.e. money printing press and interest rate, fizzle in such an environment. Running the printing press still requires some means to distribute that money, and there is very little you could do that makes that money end up in the hands of people who could spend it and thus cure the demand side problem. People would not, could not, spend it. They have a debt to take care of. That money you print would instantly be guzzled away in those debt holes people are in a

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:tl;dr by orasio · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only economically sustainable solution is to have a labor force that matches labor requirements. What Marx didn't foresee was the tremendous medical advances the world has seen in the past 100 years, allowing unsustainable population growth while the need to unskilled labor declines. No amount of sharing, unionization, or wealth transfer will help when there are billions of people with no demand for their labor.

      Don't let ideology blind you. People don't need jobs.
      People need food, shelter, medical care, and several other things. Jobs is one of the ways you can get those.
      If there _are_ enough resources for everybody, probably we can come up with way to distribute them effectively, even one that doesn't need busywork. It's not an easy problem, but seems solvable.

    19. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have you read Marx at all? You should. Engels coined the term "reserve army of labour". Marx expanded on that and analyzed unemployment as essential for capitalism to function. Not as a necessary consequence of a productivity increase -- after all, we could just distribute the smaller amount of necessary work more evenly.

    20. Re:tl;dr by udippel · · Score: 2

      There is no solution to this situation that I could think of. IMO, we're fucked. Game over, pack your stuff, start growing some veggies in your back yard and hope that you survive the impending fallout.

      I wouldn't be that negative, though.
      While in the currently fashionable economic theories a proper countermeasure is lacking, there is no good reason to preclude its existence. Once we are screwed, we will refocus our interests and research on the topic; leaving marketing research behind, because it won't help us any longer.
      What troubles me more, is the need of the individual to participate, to understand, to react and eventually to lower their expectations on impending richness.

    21. Re:tl;dr by taiwanjohn · · Score: 1

      As Richard Wolff often points out in his lectures, the USA had a constant labor shortage from the 1820s up to the 1970s. The shortage ended in part due to automation, and also because of women's liberation bringing millions more people into the workforce. For that entire period, American workers enjoyed steadily rising wages, but wages have flatlined ever since, despite continually rising productivity.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    22. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that stuff on the shelves in your supermarket will be gone by the end of the week, you just never see it because it's replenished exactly fast enough to keep the shelves fully stocked. Aside from the raw plant and animal material, everything is neither over-supplied nor under-supplied, it is just-in-time produced over a scale of about a week or two. Every supermarket has a computer system (usually an IBM computer system, but that's not important), that tracks everything sold and everything written-off (spoiled, stolen, etc) and places an order with their distributor for replenishment, who in turn places orders with the various factories to produce exactly enough to refill their storage.

      Nearly everything on the shelves of your supermarket didn't exist a month ago, and will be sold a week from now.

      Of course the supermarket is squeezing their distributors who are squeezing the factories that supply them, but they don't want to see their suppliers go out of business, they just want to minimize their profits so they can keep a larger share of the retail price. You're right that the constant squeeze inevitably forces people out of work, but neither over-production nor under-production happens with any regularity. Under production leaves money on the table, and over-production is senseless, resulting in expenses without any revenue.

      Having the shelves fully stocked only has an effect on overall production, in the sense that, if they ran out of some item, that loses potential sales. Everything on the shelves will in turn be sold, proving there was in fact demand for it. If it sits there until expiry and has to be thrown out, then less of the product will be ordered in future, manifested by the procurement manager reducing the stocking quantities.

      The food might well be wasted after sale, say it was bought by some less than rational person, who bought more than they could consume and left it to waste, but that's beside the point.

    23. Re:tl;dr by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is plenty of investment money sitting around, desperately looking for an investment opportunity.

      Almost. It's pathetically waiting for an investment opportunity, instead of creating one. Granted, creating one is made ridiculously difficult in this country.

      What makes this situation so very dangerous is that governments cannot really remedy it.

      Sure they can. They can unfuck taxation such that it comes from the pockets of those with money, and then they can spend the money on public works, raising employment and actually improving infrastructure, making it easier to make money. Done and done. Problem is, they're not going to do either of those things unless forced, let alone both.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Collective farms aren't "subsistence farming."

    25. Re:tl;dr by Bengie · · Score: 2

      I'm tired of this rhetoric of the occupy types who make a stink about being poor just because the goalpost for "poor" keeps moving higher and higher on some spreadsheet, meanwhile they ask for "fixes" that will just end up making things worse.

      I love most of your post, but I have a partial disagreement in this last part. People want to feel useful while getting treated fairly. Two things required for this is having a job and being fairly paid. Even if we had a society where no one had to work, people would not be happy unless they were able to do something that made themselves feel "useful".

      These "occupy" people may still be better off than people from the past, but they they are still having a basic human need denied, and that's a fair system where they can be a useful and appreciated member.

    26. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe the Marx i read is different from yours.

      His point stems precisely form the productivity increases which he reasoned around.

    27. Re:tl;dr by plopez · · Score: 2

      Workers often are not laid off due to actual increase in productivity. They are laid off because a system is rigged to shift to cheaper jobs elsewhere. Take Mexico as an example. Before Mexico was allowed to sign NAFTA they had to institute "land reform" which resulted in 1/3 of rural agricultural workers being made jobless. This surplus labor then ended up in the border towns working for worse wages in horrible environmental conditions and the factories in this region. Since the laor was so cheap this started the process of destroying the American industrial heartland. In addition this desperate poverty leads to the drugs wars and their huge body count, illegal immigration in the US, and huge environmental problems such as heavy metal pollution in the Rio Grande. The situation was artificially produced.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    28. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > when the whole thing collapsed, the value of
      > all the homes went down but the debt stayed
      > right where it was

      Yeah, things can lose value. Debt doesn't.

      Who says? Why, the police and the banks and the tenth of one percent who own most of the debt.

      That's why the tenth of one percent want to own debt. It's not perishable.

    29. Re:tl;dr by complete+loony · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We've given the power of the printing press to bank managers. They lend money that doesn't exist through the magic of double entry book keeping. We spend it to keep the economy going. And then we have to pay it back with interest. Except we aren't paying it back, we keep borrowing more.

      During the 2007-2010 crisis, I was worried about deflation. It should have been worse than the aftermath of the 1929 crash. But it didn't quite happen. This time around it wasn't just businesses leveraged up to their eyeballs. When a business has to find cash to pay back their loans, they can slash prices on inventory, sell what they've got without ordering more and cut staff. All of this leads to a massive reduction in income, without managing to reduce debts much at all. In fact, since incomes fell so drastically, attempting to pay off debts caused them to rise.

      While all those things did happen, this time around it was households holding a significant fraction of the debt. What is an individual going to do? Stop eating? Stop needing a roof over their heads?

      Plus this time, we've managed to get everyone borrowing again. So the economy is back on track and heading upwards. We've recovered better than they did in the early 1930's. Here in Australia we managed to avoid a technical recession completely. Our PM at the time did everything he could to get spending money into the hands of every day people. He didn't give a cent directly to the banks, he didn't need to.

      But we're not out of the woods, not by a long shot. Our mountain of debt is still there. On the average day in the 1930's the stock market was climbing, things were getting better. But then there was another crash. And the long term trend was still downwards. It was only with the outbreak of war and a massive spending spree on the part of the US gov, that debts finally reduced to sane levels.

      History doesn't repeat exactly, but it certainly does rhyme. We're going to hit another crisis. The total debt level of the economy is too high for it to be otherwise. Some group of people out there are holding onto a lot of debt and are technically insolvent. At some point their creditors are going to notice and the whole stack of cards is going to tumble again. Who's it going to be? No idea.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    30. Re:tl;dr by jedidiah · · Score: 0

      Jobs are just as much of a requirement as food and shelter.

      The job is what keeps a person from devolving into a total animal. More intelligent notions of human need actually account for stuff beyond where your next meal is coming from.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    31. Re:tl;dr by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Hmm, now where have I seen that idea before...people that need, get what they want...people that can produce, are expected to produce for everyone else. "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability." I wonder if they ever tried that idea out in real life. Like, in a major country. How would it have turned out? I'm guessing, "pretty damn good" otherwise intelligent people wouldn't advocate for such foolishness.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    32. Re:tl;dr by udachny · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Deflation is no poison, you are a tool of government propaganda, brainwashed to the core, completely without any sense or understanding. Deflation was the reality of 19th century USA economy, the period of time, when the standard of living of an average American has gone up by orders of magnitude faster than at any point in time. In fact during the 'scary deflationary' period the standard of living for Americans has gone up, but during the government induced inflation the standard of living was and is falling.

      Deflation is great for people who have less, they can afford more with less. Deflation is apparently also great for investments, which is shown by history, specifically because more savers are created during deflation, who are able to lend money to the most productive uses, so deflation grows savings, inflation destroys savings. Guess which the world needs to grow the economy... but of course you are so brain washed and brain dead, you will guess wrong.

      In fact deflation does NOT stop people from buying consumer goods that they need, this is patently absurd, it's absolutely absurd given a very SIMPLE COUNTEREXAMPLE: CREDIT CARDS. People are buying today on credit cards, which means that they are willing to pay MORE for the goods that they are buying today rather than saving their money and not using credit cards (which means paying for the privilege of using the borrowed money today) they will not save and buy tomorrow to avoid extra borrowing costs, they will instead buy today. That's what time preference is - buying today rather than tomorrow is actually also a function of cost of money.

      In any case, you are 100% wrong on all of your economic ideas that were beaten into your stupid head for the entire duration of your pathetic thoughtless life.

      Inflation is only useful to force people to buy ONE THING: INVESTMENTS.

      The only thing that people will NOT buy today if those things will become cheaper tomorrow are INVESTMENTS. If you know for a fact that your purchase will be valued lower in a year than today, you will not buy an investment like that, so the only thing that the government promotes people buying with inflated money supply are investments, which would cost LESS in a year (thanks to deflation, which is what the USA economy is apparently needing, which is why that is the natural progression that the economy would take right now, given so much misalignment in resource allocation).

      You have a lame excuse for a brain.

    33. Re: tl;dr by JoeZeppy · · Score: 3

      There's a very easy remedy to this, but there is no political will to do it. Tax the people holding the money. Then use that money in infrastructure projects, hiring workers, consuming resources, and improving the country. Problem is the rich people that own the politicians will never let that happen, thus cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

    34. Re:tl;dr by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      To make a long story short, he did in one day what a team of 3 or 4 took a week to do back in the 90s. That's a 75% reduction of workers needed for software development right there. Automation is affecting all workers at all levels; well not the management guys, of course.

      It's worse than that. It's a 98% reduction in total work paid for.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    35. Re:tl;dr by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      There are over a billion people living on a dollar a day. Claiming that we have "over production" at the global level is absurd.

      To be fair, this is just an artifact of a wacky worldwide monetary system. $1 a day doesn't sound like much, but many people are able to live on it. In parts of the world however, this would be impossible even if you took income taxes out of the picture.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    36. Re:tl;dr by DrLang21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Deflation is relatively easy to deal with, but it would be political suicide to do so. The Fed keeps printing money and giving to to banks to lend out as debt. This only puts a lot of money in the pockets of the super rich who don't spend it. If you want to held deflation, take that money and give it directly to everyone.

      Money, in the hands of people who will actually spend it, is the cure. We have seen examples in the past where the government just gives out an extra $200 to everyone filing a tax return. I got that money and spent it. So did a lot of people, and it was credited for creating noticable relief in the economy. Give me $40,000 to forgive all my school debts and I'll have an extra $500 a month to do something with. Sure I'll save some of it, but not all of it. I am sure the vast majority of other people would do the same. Hell I might even be able to save enough for a down payment on a house.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    37. Re:tl;dr by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      All that stuff on the shelves in your supermarket will be gone by the end of the week, you just never see it because it's replenished exactly fast enough to keep the shelves fully stocked.

      This is wrong. A lot of it is thrown away or donated to food pantries. The model for keeping customers from going to the next door competitor is to never ever let the customer be unable to get something because it's out of stock.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    38. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Actually, what really would be needed is an acceptance amongst the "rich" that the "working poor" need more money, and that it's them who have to give it. And that in turn will not happen, because whoever pays is at a disadvantage to everyone who does not. And before you rejoice, when I talk about the "rich" having to foot the bill, I'm not (only) talking about the proverbial 1%. If you can sit here and read that, if you have leisure time to do that, chances are that you'll be among those that get to pay.

      I can only hope that our governments realize it before it's too late. Because I highly doubt that people and corporations will voluntarily hand over money to maintain peace and reignite prosperity.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    39. Re:tl;dr by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Sure they can. They can unfuck taxation such that it comes from the pockets of those with money, and then they can spend the money on public works, raising employment and actually improving infrastructure, making it easier to make money. Done and done. Problem is, they're not going to do either of those things unless forced, let alone both.

      ++

      Distributing money to poor people is easy if that is all you want to do. Just change the tax code, and offer credits to anybody making under $100k/yr, covering it with a 50% tax on wealth over some figure. Suddenly sitting on huge piles of money doesn't seem so attractive.

      Or as you suggest spend it on infrastructure, which makes hiring locally more attractive and benefits the public besides.

    40. Re:tl;dr by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Jobs are just as much of a requirement as food and shelter.

      The job is what keeps a person from devolving into a total animal. More intelligent notions of human need actually account for stuff beyond where your next meal is coming from.

      I don't think anybody is advocating that people should just sit and watch TV all day. Maybe if you gave them disposable income they'd find hobbies, or take up art or whatever. Organize community programs to give people things to do.

      You don't need to chain somebody to a cash register for $7/hr under the threat of starvation to keep their mind nimble.

    41. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Creating an investment opportunity it is insane in this economy. To make an investment viable, I'd have to produce something that I can SELL. The fact that this is near impossible today is the whole problem we're sitting on: How should anyone create a business if there's nobody to SELL to?

      Something akin to the "new deal" would actually work out, but not in the US of today. Government as employer in anything but administration is anathema to the creed we all bow to. Unless we finally manage to shed that fantasy of the free market employing the muscle of its invisible hand, we're basically fucked.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    42. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I was about to write a reply, but what for? You've obviously made up your mind and somehow I feel my time is too valuable to waste it at idiots who can't refute statements but instead go down the "It's how I say it is because you're an idiot" ad-hominem road.

      Sorry, but that's no discussion I want to be part of. Good bye.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    43. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And we really have NO shortage of investment money. People would love to invest. If you needed any proof of this, the issue of Greek bonds that sold like hotcakes (despite Greece's credit history and its near bankruptcy) just because of the guarantees the EU gave for them is an indicator. They offered just over 5% interest and were fiercely contested. There is plenty of investment money sitting around, desperately looking for an investment opportunity.

      That's not investment money, it's speculative money. Simple. As long as no guarantees are tested, they guarantee ... a rating. That you can arbitrage. Borrow money from the ECB at low rate, buy the Greek bonds at high rate, pocket the rate differential - heck, go and use the Greek bonds as collateral for whatever lender will take them, and you have even less of a need for up-front cash, so higher return for your *ahem* investment. Once Greece misses a payment, the last out of the building is left holding the bag, as the EU quite likely doesn't intend to actually honor any pledges involving a local government's debts - too risky a precedent and the ECB warned *a lot* against doing that. So your 'investment money' is actually more like yield pigs' money. There are indeed a lot of fund managers desperate to find yield, but that's not quite the same thing as investment money. It does however have to do with the pooling of money that you remarked upon.

      As to how you fix deflation, the answer is of course you print money[*]. The trick is, as you noted, how to do it. You can effectively go negative on interest rates, either explicitly (tax deposits) or implicitly. The proof is in the pudding - the CHF pudding in this case. The SNB seems so far to have effectively stopped the deflationist ramp up of the swiss franc. It's not easy, it's not painless, but neither is stopping inflation when it reaches above 10%. But it is particularly hard if you let first the economy depend on, shall we say, too few points of failure.

    44. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over-production has just been globalized - to China.

      There are over a billion people living on a dollar a day. Claiming that we have "over production" at the global level is absurd.

      The people who are over producing stuff are not necessarily the people responsible for using up the over production. One person that consumes 100 times what the producers consume will compensate for a lot of people barely getting enough to live.

    45. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only reason deflation is dangerous is because all governments have favored, in various ways, debt over equity, and deflation is painful to debtors. Since inflation is only painful to savers, and the savings rate in non-asian countries tend to be minimal, it's much more political palatable. Especially since it allows governments to run huge deficits constantly. "Get now, pay later" gets the votes.

    46. Re:tl;dr by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      ther e is nothing wacky in it. The difference stems from the local tech level/productivity. Long story short you have it baked in the price of everything, including wages.

      That also means that even exact same job with exact same productivity (eg artists) can be paid differently.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

    47. Re: tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You will neither get political nor popular support for such a suggestion. It would probably work out, but getting it done would be political suicide.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    48. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you don't keep track of things like the war on drugs. If you did, you would know that was an artificial construct by the CIA to milk money out of foreign countries. If drugs were not "illegal" there would be no drug war, and none of that fallout you mentioned.

    49. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Considering that the rich of the 30's still had millions (in the realm of 100's of millions nowadays), I doth think you hyperbole too much. I particularly enjoy how you casually ignore how the goalpost of "rich" has slid ever upwards as well. I make a lot of money, I'm not "rich" by the standards of the tax code, but I am "rich" in that my life is comfortable and I can eat well and provide for myself. Millionaires don't consider themselves rich, and that's the root of the problem.

    50. Re:tl;dr by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Well, that's not unreasonable if you're making a loan. That is the nature of loans.

      However, people should not be encouraged to go into debt and neither should we be subsidizing the loan industry.

      Traditionally, Americans put upwards of 40 percent of the value of a home as a down payment. That is a good figure. It means you're unlikely to walk away from the debt and lose the principle. It also means you have some means because you had enough to put 40 percent down.

      That should be the standard. If you can't afford a home at that rate then maybe you're living in the wrong part of the country. There are parts of the US that have VERY cheap real estate and they're not terrible places to live either. They're just not hyper fashionable. If the economics in those areas are squeezing you out... then just leave. Don't compound your problem by going into debt to buy a house that could have its value collapse at any moment.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    51. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly to think that deflation is occurring (in the US at least). Food and energy prices are skyrocketing, and wages are stagnant. The weighting of property prices might hide some of this, but rental prices are sky high right now.

    52. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I love this canard. It is only uttered by people who project their own deficiencies upon the world at large (as only your type would be juvenile enough to take advantage of a situation like that). Just because YOU yourself are not disciplined enough to occupy your time productively without being told what to do by someone who doesn't give a shit about you, that does not give you the right to assume everyone ELSE is as lazy and rentseeking as you.

      I love it when people say this, as they are only exposing what THEY would do in the situation. Not most of humanity. It turns out I'm right almost every time though; the cases where I'm wrong is where the person is literally too stupid to do anything without having their hand held. They would drink bleach from a bottle without a warning label on it, and get angry at how that terrible smelling stuff is killing them and no one should be allowed to sell such a terrible product that people might drink. And yes, that really happened, back in my hometown. Fortunately he didn't die, but he hasn't learned any lessons either.

      Thank you for outing yourself. We can all now disregard your opinion that much easier :)

    53. Re:tl;dr by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Marx was a hireling of ideologues. He might have been a genius but he SOLD his genius and his integrity for "capitalist" dollars.

      He wrote what his ideologist friends told him to write, and he did it for money.

    54. Re:tl;dr by kumanopuusan · · Score: 2

      We should pay the unemployed to enroll in colleges and universities (not merely subsidize the costs of education), since higher levels of education would ultimately benefit society as a whole.

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    55. Re:tl;dr by Kremmy · · Score: 1

      The debt cycle has allowed us to spend more resources than could ever exist, the only option left will be to eliminate all the debt because it was just an accounting trick in the first place. The financial system is burning itself down and it'll do whatever it can to not admit it.

    56. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Today's poor make the rich of the 30's look like paupers, and the middle class of the 80's look like welfare recipients."

      The poor of today worry about where their next meal comes from just like the poor always have.

    57. Re:tl;dr by kumanopuusan · · Score: 2

      As an afterthought, what if being a student paid just as well as the average white-collar job? Studying diligently is at least as taxing as most full-time jobs.

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    58. Re:tl;dr by Kremmy · · Score: 1

      Deflation is the only option at this point. You can't just endlessly inflate the economy and act like it's working. The federal reserve secretly issued trillions of dollars to banks. Economists are delusional to the degree that they'll argue tooth and nail against deflation, I think that's an economist refusing to do his job. The economy has cycles like everything else, trying to brush it under the rug is why we ended up in this mess in the first place.

    59. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      Marx doubtless said a lot of things that made sense...

      I'm waiting to see it.

    60. Re:tl;dr by dryeo · · Score: 2

      When early plants feasted on CO2 and produced oxygen it caused the biggest mass extinction the world ever experienced. Sure once all the species that were poisoned by oxygen died out it left openings for new species but from the viewpoint of the wiped out it wasn't exactly an improvement.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    61. Re:tl;dr by dryeo · · Score: 2

      Well when you consider countries such as Russia, communism was actually quite a success. Even with psychopathic leadership and having to win WWII they still managed to go from feudal to space faring in only half a century. Generally the average person was a lot better off under communism then being peasants owned by the aristocracy. Politically things were the shits before and after communism and now with capitalism things are still the shits for the average Russian.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    62. Re:tl;dr by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      There is no solution to this situation that I could think of...

      How about redistribution of wealth by some means? Say taxes and transfer payments? Robin Hood? But, no, there must be something horribly wrong with that idea because, according to you, we're fucked.

      --
      That is all.
    63. Re:tl;dr by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      I offer as much for the sake of argument as anything. I'm not one of his cultists.

      Neither am I cultist for Ayn Rand or any of the other supposed economic messiahs.

      I don't think anyone has ever had all the answers which is not a cop out to suggest that answers cannot be had but rather an admission of our own humble capabilities. Just as no scientist has ever had a perfect understanding of the universe, neither has any economist had a perfect understanding of the mathematical and evolving game theory that is economics.

      I don't care to be drawn into a defense of Marx of all people. Whatever the man's initial theories and suggestions, they were ultimately championed by genocidal barbarians tainting any discussion about the man with their crimes.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    64. Re:tl;dr by melchoir55 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't agree that there are no tools a government could employ here. A government could create a tax bracket of 70% (or some other arbitratily high number) and make the bracket begin at a number high enough that only those pooling money would be effected(including corps). The government could then spend that money on public infrastructure, employing people in the process. Think power plants, government rollout of highspeed fiber, high speed trains, or hell if you get enough money how about a space elevator?

      A government, such as the US govt, could prevent companies by sending all their money oversees by penalizing companies which don't base themselves in the US. A govt could institute a tax on assets upon death. A government could institute tax brackets which target your existing wealth as well as income. A government could redefine corporations in such a way that it is no longer possible for the insane abuses they perpetrate to continue.

      I am not saying any of this is easy. However, we aren't trying any of it, and all of it has the potential to help (if not solve) the problem. I also fully realize why we aren't trying any of it: All of it affects the wealthy, and the USA is an oligarchy.

    65. Re:tl;dr by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      If you can't afford a home at that rate then maybe you're living in the wrong part of the country. There are parts of the US that have VERY cheap real estate and they're not terrible places to live either. They're just not hyper fashionable.

      No, they're not terrible places to live, they're just places with minimal job mobility and limited economic prospects. Not to mention that what economic prospects exist there are usually involved in raping the environment or taking delight in economic exploitation of your neighbors, But yeah, I'm sure it's all that "fashion" that moves people into big cities. After all, it's so great to pay higher prices for food, housing, etc. for the sake of "fashionability". It couldn't be that part about your local employer dumping coal sludge into waterways so you need to buy bottled water to wash with and drink for two or three weeks out of year.

      --
      That is all.
    66. Re:tl;dr by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Deflation is relatively easy to deal with, but it would be political suicide to do so..... If you want to held deflation, take that money and give it directly to everyone.

      This particular strategy has been twice under Obama and once under Bush. Political suicide to give everyone money? You need to find whoever told you that, call them an idiot, and never listen to them again.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    67. Re:tl;dr by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      tl;dr Marx was right that an over-production would leave the majority in poverty, and the only economically sustainable solution is sharing. It's not "desperation", but an inevitable and rational necessity.

      It's called the sharing economy, but there's not actually sharing co-op style. It's more finding use of idle assets. If you own a car but you only drive 1 hr each day, then it goes unused 23 hrs. And if you're unemployed, you have idle time that you're not using. Get some money here.

    68. Re:tl;dr by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Not true. Some of the best job prospects these days are in Texas and North Dakota.

      Its places like Los Angeles and NYC that are showing a continuing contraction of the job market.

      What is more, if you do the same job in Dallas that you do in Los Angeles, you'll often find you get paid about the same which means the cost of living difference is pure profit.

      As to what economic prospects exists outside of the urban centers along the coast of the US, you'll find that you have most of the same businesses in the middle of country that exist on the edge. This is especially true of tech firms that are increasingly setting up in places friendlier to start ups.

      As to raping the earth, you're on the internet using a machine mass produced in Asia, transshipped to your country by container, powered by an electrical grid that is something like 60 percent coal fueled... etc etc.

      Moronic hypocrisy is not something I find especially respectable. And if you're in a major urban center along the coast it doesn't mean you're not raping the environment just because you're not personally doing it. Your life style depends upon someone somewhere else doing it for you. And you pay them to do it every time you pay your electrical bill or buy a gallon of gas.

      In other words... you can either go hungry and cold... or shut up and enjoy the cheeseburger. Trying to have it both ways is at best naive and at worst dishonest.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    69. Re:tl;dr by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      The one thing you can sell into a stagnant economy are consumable and necessity products that cost less. Stare at the things that are still selling--food, basic clothing, etc.--put resources into making a cheaper version. It's easy to show there's a huge volume of such opportunities, just look at the growth of Walmart on the back of such work.

      But that just circles back to the same problem again. Products where the innovation is improved efficiency and/or lower costs take you right back to less spending.

    70. Re:tl;dr by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      "Traditionally" 40%? That's a citation needed claim. Companies like MGIC have let people shift around the downpayment risk to where it makes sense since 1957, and the standard LMI/PMI rate has been 20% for as long as I've been alive.

      All three of down payment, mortgage length, and interest rate interact to determine what's been acceptable. The best example of how that can play out dramatically in modern US history were the high interest rates and "stagflation" of the 1970's. Unusual things happened to typical mortgage lengths when the rate jumped up, and the risk/reward on downpayments moved with all that.

      The idea that you can always move to somewhere cheap to live is just silly. A major reason real estate prices inflate in an area is because it's where the jobs are. You can't just move away from real estate spikes without a strong assurance you'll get work in the new area that nets you more. That this will always be possible is one of those things you mainly hear from entitled young people. Good luck with that.

    71. Re: tl;dr by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      You placed the rich people and the politicians into separate categories. The whole mess is easier to understand once you realize the politicians at the top are a subset of the rich people, not a different group. Congress isn't even subtle anymore about how they structure insider trading to get rich, take a look at how the STOCK act was gutted to see them at work.

    72. Re:tl;dr by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      There is no solution to this situation that I could think of.

      Bankruptcy.

      Bankruptcy will -- in a vary painful but mercifully short way -- clear the debts, crystallize the losses of those who have invested poorly, reward the prudent with decreased asset prices, and ultimately free those trapped in debt to start their lives again. It's harsh, but the slow debt/deflationary purgatory we are now living in is death by a thousand cuts by comparison.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    73. Re:tl;dr by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      This particular strategy has been twice under Obama and once under Bush.

      The pocket change they threw at us was hardely enough to make a serious effort. Between QE1, QE2, and QE3, the Fed pumped upwards of $2 trillion into the monetary system (and rising). That's on the order of $6500 for every man woman and child in the country. If that money was alocated for debt forgiveness rather than creating new debt, it's enough money to make a meaningful dent in personal liabilities to free up cash for consumer spending. $200 one year $400 the next does nothing to this end. It helps (as was shown), but it does not seriously entertain freeing up regular cash for consumer spending.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    74. Re:tl;dr by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I do agree it would be better than giving money to banks

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    75. Re:tl;dr by mdielmann · · Score: 2

      Ah yes, just like Newton, that idle wealthy person. Given the opportunity, he just sat under apple trees and watched the world...

      Almost right.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    76. Re: tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is he reading Groucho?

    77. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Inflation [ ... ] That can be remedied: Simply stop printing money and jack up interest rates
      > Deflation is not so easily cured.

      Do you read the crap you just wrote ?

      If *not* printing money fixes inflation, what in the wide old world do you think fixes deflation ?

      (the boogeyman, what will we ever do)

    78. Re:tl;dr by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      In economics this process is called 'disruption'. Think of those primordial plants as being the medallion cabdrivers of the Cretaceous.

    79. Re: tl;dr by zemicrofilm · · Score: 1

      Hoes that deflation looking for japan and now the EU potentially? Talk about huge amounts of lost potential with very high unemployment rates. That's real people who cannot work even though they want to. Horrible waste of life. Anyone with 1 year unemployment will have a much lower chance if a job once the economy is back to "normal" I suggest you start reading krugmans blog for some help.

    80. Re: tl;dr by zemicrofilm · · Score: 1

      I think raising the minimum wage would be the ultimate cute to deflation in the USA. Raising the minimum wage would kill 2 birds with one stone. Increase demand side of the economy. And add inflationary effects to counter deflation. Read krugmans blog for more info and discussion.

    81. Re:tl;dr by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      Maybe I just explained myself badly. What I meant was that Marx was right, and far more right than even he could have ever foreseen.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    82. Re:tl;dr by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And before you rejoice, when I talk about the "rich" having to foot the bill, I'm not (only) talking about the proverbial 1%. If you can sit here and read that, if you have leisure time to do that, chances are that you'll be among those that get to pay.

      I'll agree that's what will happen, but not that it should or must be that way. Only the proverbial 1% must pay for the system to work. And indeed, if anyone else pays, the system may well work, but it will not work well. This is one of the objections to the ACA which I feel is valid. The people at the top benefit the most from labor, but the people at the bottom are expected to pay for other people's insurance. The same is true of every other social welfare program. The people at the top figure out a way to dodge their fair share, which is the only reason anyone else even notices theirs.

      Implicit in this understanding of the system is a belief that a graduated tax system is fairer than a flat one, but I do believe that. A flat tax is regressive because poorer people spend a larger percentage of their income on necessities.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    83. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ": but economics is more complicated then any one man and the scope of human history is not going to be summed up by das capital."

      Sorry but economics is a sham. Built by warmongers and thugs by instituting legal fictions like private property.

    84. Re:tl;dr by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Private property is no more a fiction then personal rights.

      If its wrong for me to peel your skin off, look into your eyes, and eat you... then why is it okay to take the things I've worked for without paying?

      If I built a house with my own money... worked hard to pay for it... protected it... maintained it.

      What right do you have to take it?

      Why am I not justified in shooting you in the face should you try?

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    85. Re: tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suggest you start reading krugmans blog for well-written left wing propaganda.

      FTFY

    86. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, I agree. But its supposed to be risky and it should be able to lose value.

      Isn't making a loan a business venture? I know it is for me. If I make a loan that I can't collect on, its my loss and my problem. Yes, I can bitch and wail about how much of a dirtbag the borrower was but ultimately I made the loan. I took the risk and I take the loss.

      Too bad so many 'capitalists' forget this when they spout off about individual responsibility.

    87. Re:tl;dr by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      So where was the market for all those overproduced E.T. game cartridges for the Atari 2600? They ended up in the landfill, remember.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    88. Re:tl;dr by Kogun · · Score: 1

      Marx also failed to see the term "poverty" encompass such a broad spectrum of living conditions. What was poverty in Europe prior to 1848? Compare that to what we call poverty in the US or EU in 2014. Similarly, compare the living conditions of the working poor in 1848 vs today. If Marx could time-travel to from 1848 to 2014, he might reconsider a great deal of his Manifesto.

    89. Re:tl;dr by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Atari was too proud to let the market set the price and discount off the games, though it could have made a little money this way. But to its credit, it did not lobby for a federal video game assistance subsidy to "facilitate" customer acceptance of an unpopular game.

    90. Re:tl;dr by volmtech · · Score: 1

      This could help some but most consumer items are foreign made. You would mostly help the Korean and Chinese economies. Millions of people receive government aid and live in public housing. Somehow this is not socialism but having people live in dormitories next to factories and assemble cellphones is.

    91. Re:tl;dr by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      tl;dr Marx was right that an over-production would leave the majority in poverty, and the only economically sustainable solution is sharing. It's not "desperation", but an inevitable and rational necessity.

      Ask any student of capitalism. The rule of Capitalism is that the rich get richer, at the expense of the poorer. Extreme capitalism eliminates the middle class.
      Check your status as a middle class American. Now, Canadians, who so far have a more equitable tax system have on average, a higher standard of living than do Americans. Ditto for Australia, New Zealand, and many non-English speaking countries.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    92. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are over a billion people living on a dollar a day.

      And milk doesn't cost nearly $5 a gallon.

      Stop comparing USD to other localities without actually considering cost of living. It's derptastic at best, and a horribly misleading ploy at worst.

    93. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ok, more apt would be "I don't see any solution that doesn't take politicians with balls, 'cause they're in terribly short supply".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    94. Re:tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Printing money won't solve the issue. Because invariably, no matter how you try to do it, the money will end up on the supply side, i.e. it will worsen the problem, not solve it.

      Either you hand the money directly to the supply side. I.e. how it is today, by bailing out corporations and saving investments. While it makes investors happy, it also means that they now face the same problem again, since they want a ROI on their investment. The problem gets perpetuated because that investment cannot pay off any more than it did before. It will need another bailout sooner or later because either investors pull out as soon as they find out that they can without losing too much (resulting in money pooled on the investment side) or they will want to get more money out of their investment (and why should that work better in the future than it does now when there is nothing changing on the demand side?).

      Or you hand the money somehow to the demand side, i.e. consumers. They can't consume, though, because they are already well over their head in debt. As soon as you throw money into their bank account, the bank will keep it to reduce the debt, and the money you wanted to get into consumption goes into the bank, who will in turn want to invest it.

      I.e. no matter what you do, the money you print ends up in the hands of organizations that want to invest it but won't consume with it.

      Printing money is not going to solve your problem. If anything, it will make it worse.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    95. Re: tl;dr by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I agree, but I fear it's too late for that already. That would have been a solution around 2007. By now, those that would be the major consumers already are over their head in debt, even if you increased their wage now considerably it would take time before they can participate in consumption again.

      It can work. but we'd probably have to push through another decade of this depression before we see some light at the end of the tunnel.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    96. Re:tl;dr by ranmagirl · · Score: 1

      It is a fact that the worlds poorest are now wealthier than they've ever been. That doesn't mean that they have more
      money, but things like world hunger have largely ended (still exists in a few pockets of areas, but that is mainly due to
      politics rather than economics in those cases) and quote-unquote "nice things" are much easier to afford.

      World's or your countries? Because worlds poorest people, which is NOT just a "few pockets" (neither as in areas or as in literal pockets of people). Wealthier than they've ever been? When you have nothing, you can't be wealthier than before.

      Now even the poor have much better TVs than the ones rich had in the
      80's, cell phones that aren't tied to a car and have unlimited talk time for a flat rate, and blu-ray players, and I've
      seen more than one homeless person walking around with a working laptop.

      Most homeless people, even in 1st world countries don't have laptops - even in Finland, with out awesome social security system some don't even have cell phones, but most have - it's kinda neccesity nowdays. I've been homeless, lived in a shelter with just my HD saved from my computer. Could have had my computer there, but it was getting old and it wasn't the safest place for it.

      Used to be the homeless were lucky if they eat
      more than one meal in a day; now they're often overweight.

      This is bullcrap, even though true.

      Thank god for Finnish social security system, our poor can afford food that can keep them healthy. I saw a document, the only name that comes to mind is "Food Inc.", an excellent one but I don't think it's that, I think it was focused entirely on poor people and bad nutrition.

      The thing is, in USA it's not that you can afford to get fat and eat unhealthy if your among the poorest - it's that you can't eat healthy and not get fat, because you can feed your family with unhealthy garbage from market, but check the prices of vegetables, and you see that you could feed one with them or the family with garbage - of course I think it's immoral to not steal to save your children, but by legal ways, the poorest of the poor in USA have no choice to eat food that won't make them fat, give them adult diabetes before teenage, etc.

      Today's poor make the rich of the 30's look like paupers, and the middle class of the 80's look like welfare recipients.
      I'm tired of this rhetoric of the occupy types who make a stink about being poor just because the goalpost for "poor"
      keeps moving higher and higher on some spreadsheet, meanwhile they ask for "fixes" that will just end up making things
      worse.

      Your tired of it because either you lack information (not crime, not even reason to offend you or anyone) or that you are a shill for something (unethical, and *IF* the case, then I wish you have future among the poorest. Don't take offence if the second one is not what you are.

      --
      ranma - girl?
    97. Re:tl;dr by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

      This is true. All this talk of government bloat is complete bullshit because government cannot, does not, and IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO exist. Paying taxes is completely voluntary but also imaginary and also GOVERNMENT THEFT WITH A GUN TO YOUR HEAD.

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
    98. Re: tl;dr by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

      You should try and find people who actually MAKE money in this environment and learn something from them instead.

      Good advice. However, because you have not disclosed your salary or net worth I must disregard everything you say.

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
  2. Sharing is common outside the west by Beck_Neard · · Score: 5, Informative

    In many countries in the world it's quite common for people to share stuff like taxi services and rooms and has been for decades. In many of these places the crime rate is far higher than in the United States. The huge contrast between the amount of distrust people seem to have for each other in America and the actual rate of crime (which is quite low and has been decreasing for decades) is pretty astounding.

    --
    A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    1. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      It's the entropy-conscious behavior. The one thing you wouldn't be able to replace with money even if you had unlimited amounts of money.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Crime rate and 'perceived' crime rate are two things that vary wildly here in the US.... Crime rates for pretty much everything other than pot and stealing people's houses b/c you get away with it as a bank... are down, but that doesn't mean people 'feel' safe, b/c they still see 'crime on the news' and... So I would have to wonder how much perceived crime rate has gone down. Plus we have some "news" channels (not to name Fox's name, because that would be mean(Yeah... I'm on one of those moods... where I just don't care at this time of night...)) that leans one direction and has been proven by media matters to skew news based on racial bias, which then in turn doesn't help things....

      Its a complicated topic, but basically race has a lot to do with how others 'perceive' dangerous people around you (I've read a study on this like 15 years ago, but none recently) Also, you're gender/religion/background (basically everything), but most importantly: the avg. race/avg.income of the area you are in, determines people's comfort levels.

    3. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by guises · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You seem to be lending credence to the hypothesis in the article: the less affluent you are, the more chances you're forced to take in order to get by.

      Anecdotally, I've had a number of friends who had to go this route with AirBNB. All of them love the money, none of them love the strangers in their apartments. (Though it isn't all bad - they're generally nice people.)

    4. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      Sharing is and even more was also very common in the West (from a European point of view). However, that deteriorated over the past decades (starting in the 1970ies). Now we at an all time low. And as wealth is generally decreasing,sharing start to become interesting again. Furthermore, capitalism is no longer that popular.

    5. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      sharing start to become interesting again. Furthermore, capitalism is no longer that popular.

      Interesting, in that "sharing" your apartment (for instance) for a weekend for a fee IS capitalism - your capital (that apartment/house/whatever) making you money.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    6. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by udippel · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, capitalism is no longer that popular.

      How I wished you were right!

    7. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by prefec2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know this is crazy, but you could share your apartment with one for free. And hope to get offered the same when visiting some place. This is called altruism and happened very often in the "distant" past.

    8. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by prefec2 · · Score: 2

      First, the unpopularity is not evenly distributed in all classes of society. Second, a lot of people defend capitalism, because they mistake it for market economy. Third, a large person think capitalism is freedom and any change is dictatorship, like Russia. They confuse economic system and political system. Communism and democracy could be combined (in theory), where all goods belong to everyone. And we all decide over its use. I personally doubt that such concept would work. Other concepts have worked in the past and present which have different states of ownerships.

      Still. Those who control the states in Western country are in favor of the present economy. We all life in an oligarchy, just like the Russians and Ukrainians. The major difference, we have to freedom of speech and they do not. However, we are ignored, while they get all the attention of the state.

    9. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might be interested in googling couch surfing.

    10. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      So I would have to wonder how much perceived crime rate has gone down...

      This is easy to answer. "Perceived" crime rate is way UP, because of media and government scare-mongering. There have been many studies and polls, and people keep screaming that we must "do something" about the "increasing" crime rate, which simply does not exist.

      It's a classic case of how the news can make people think things that simply are not so. (With government's help.)

      In my opinion, the news and government scare-mongering have a lot more to do with it than learned attitudes about race, etc. We're constantly being TOLD that the crime rate is abominable, when that's the opposite of the truth.

    11. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      And as wealth is generally decreasing,sharing start to become interesting again. Furthermore, capitalism is no longer that popular.

      ... Which is the REASON that wealth has generally been decreasing.

      Haven't you noticed? It's a blatantly obvious correlation: as Western society has become more "socialist", and its governments more interventionist, its economies have been slumping, in pretty much direct proportion.

      While the countries that have been becoming more capitalist -- like China and the former Soviet states -- are doing far BETTER than they were before.

      So flagging popularity of "capitalism" is problematic because history unfailingly tells us that capitalism WORKS... and those other things don't.

    12. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Second, a lot of people defend capitalism, because they mistake it for market economy.

      It is not a "mistake". While they are of course not the same things, free market economies do not exist without capitalism, and vice versa. History tells us very clearly that one does not occur without the other. So it's pretty natural to conflate them.

      Third, a large person think capitalism is freedom and any change is dictatorship, like Russia.

      But you neglect to mention that there are very good reasons to think that.

      Yes, people confuse political systems with economic systems, but they are tied together.

      Those who control the states in Western country are in favor of the present economy.

      Which is the whole point here. They may not be the same things, but when you don't have free markets, neither do you have a free political system. There is not a single exception in the history of the world.

    13. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also have that, ie couchsurfing.org, and other "hospitality exchanges"

      It's not about altruism, or capitalism, it's about voluntary exchange. By the way, that "hope to get offered the same" is pretty much the same as "hope to make a profit"

    14. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by westlake · · Score: 1

      I know this is crazy, but you could share your apartment with one for free.

      That among other violations of his lease lead to a neighbor being evicted from his low-rent apartment.

    15. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also known as... Couchsurfing (search for it on some search engine!). Yes, it is free. As in freedom.

    16. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by rmdashrf · · Score: 2

      They confuse economic system and political system. Communism and democracy could be combined (in theory)

      This would be the only true form of democracy. As the US Constitution says 'for the people, by the people' (or is it the other way around) any other form leads to dictatorship.

      I personally doubt that such concept would work.

      That is how social democratic countries have been functioning in western Europe, until politicians started to see Euro signs and handed over their national sovereignty to Brussels.

      In the Netherlands, In the 70's, all education, including tertiary, were free (as in free beer). Up until 1999, I paid about $15/month (which was automatically deducted from wages) to be completely insured for ALL medical expenses. Public services were in the hands of the government, which wasn't always the best service, but it was usually stable and reliable. After privatisation, prices have soared and assets like the phone network, paid for by tax payer money has literally been sold for 1 guilder (at the time) (about $0.60 US), while all tax payers are now again paying for the privilege to use that infrastructure, because it's owned by a private company. In the meantime reliability of services has reduced, since maintenance costs money and cuts into profit margins.

      Right now, students opt to not get tertiary degrees, because the financial burden is getting to high and instead of paying $15 US, we now pay 120 Euro/month with a 500 Euro excess, which still doesn't cover everything. Payment is mandatory, but there are people who can't actually make use of healthcare, because they are so strapped financially that they have to choose between paying the excess or pay the rent.

      Regulation on rent in the meantime has been greatly decreased as well, meaning that rents have risen dramatically,while the building of cheap homes has been actively been discouraged. At the moment, people who rent and want to move to a similar house in the same city (even if it's to something a block away from where they are living now) can get a 30-40% increase in rent, because their current agreements fall under the old legislation, while the new contract will be drawn up under the new legislation.

      Most nations in western Europe had social democratic governments, the only reason this has changed is because of greed, with politicians and bankers cashing in, by making services that should be owned by the public 'more efficient' by privatising them.

      --
      Nihil in publicum sputa.
    17. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is how social democratic countries have been functioning in western Europe

      Right. That's why "Wer hat uns verraten? Die Sozialdemokraten!" ("Who has betrayed us? the social-democrats!") has been a staple slogan of the German communists since 1919.

      Ever since 1916 (when the social democratic parliamentary fraction split, initiating the development SPD -> (M)SPD + USPD [1917]; USPD -> USPD + KPD [1919]) the German social-democrats have definitely not been about communism (which does not allow for private ownership of the means of production - which tends to collide with the idea of property rights we usually associate with democratic nations).

      At best the social-democrats had their sights set on some form of democratic socialism and at least here in Germany they effectively abolished that claim with the Godesberg program of 1959.

      I'd be massively surprised if the development in Denmark was much different.

    18. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      People report on topics that draw attention. That alone is enough to explain why the perception of crime is higher than the reality. "Lots of kids went to school and nothing bad happened", zero clicks. "Think of the children!" story, parents furiously re-share with their half-baked "this has to change!" commentary, every reporter tries to cover it, pundits have material for their shows, and politicians get something to lecture on so they sound relevant. Everybody hears about it.

      Don't confuse that news spectacle with government scare-mongering. They're both real, but the government one is a slower and subtler game. Also very real: the heavily entrenched biases about race in the US. Why does LeVar Burton teach his kids how not be shot by police? Hint: it's not because of media sensationalism.

    19. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      They're both real, but the government one is a slower and subtler game.

      In general these things may be true, but at times it is neither.

      For example, there is very strong evidence that there was government tampering with both the events and reporting immediately after the Sandy Hook shooting. I'm not going so far as to say conspiracy or anything, but there was a pretty darned evident political agenda.

    20. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      And hope to get offered the same....this is called altruism

      No it isn't.

    21. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by rmdashrf · · Score: 1

      At best the social-democrats had their sights set on some form of democratic socialism and at least here in Germany they effectively abolished that claim with the Godesberg program of 1959.

      At least in the Netherlands, the social democrats (PvDA) were infiltrated by what is now called Neo-liberalism, while the population was sleeping and not caring too much, because everyone could buy a new car every couple of years and go on holiday twice every year. The labour party's most prominent 'labour' leader (Wim Kok) is now sitting on the board of Shell. So yes, that slogan goes up in the Netherlands as well

      Now people with average wages, something that was more than enough to pay for a family or 4 people in the 80s (corrected for inflation), are now having trouble to pay all their bills at the end of the month.

      I am actually hoping that with new technology like 3D printing, some of the means of production move away from large corporates to individuals, but there is no easy way to undo damage done by privatisation of public assets, barring a new government just confiscating these assets.

      --
      Nihil in publicum sputa.
    22. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by ranmagirl · · Score: 1

      In fact, that is not even uncommon among certain types of people sharing certain types of life philosophies even today, and never really wen't away, though sadly it still is and has been for too long quite a marginal group of people :)

      --
      ranma - girl?
    23. Re:Sharing is common outside the west by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      K. S. Kyosuke: You've been called out (for tossing names) & you ran "forrest" from a fair challenge http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  3. Insecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sort of thing just screams insecurity. That is, if people are resorting to these things out of desperation for money, we should be focusing more on a better safety net.

    Personally, I'd advocate a negative income tax. I'd even settle for some sort of citizen's basic income. But, I'd prefer a negative income tax that slides as one's income nears the poverty level thereby creating an incentive to work still.

    Anyone else have any solutions or ideas?

    1. Re:Insecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Land value tax and basic income.

      Add citizen's juries to government, and you've solved most of the problems.

    2. Re:Insecurity by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's not really a popular one 'cause it would increase salaries considerably, and as we all know that's anathema to the powers that are.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Insecurity by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      A negative income tax would either require higher taxes for the middle class, which would result in no impact or a minimal impact on the economy at large, as money is transferred between those who have not much to those who have nothing. Or you have to tax the rich resulting in a transfer from savings to the poor who spend it. This would have a positive effect on the economy, increasing jobs (for short), and increase inflation (a bit), however this would not find the approval of your oligarchic overlords in the US. And raising taxes for the middle class would be used in "elections" to destroy an opponent in an election. Therefore, both options will not happen.

    4. Re:Insecurity by GameboyRMH · · Score: 0

      So why isn't Somalia a utopian paradise?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Insecurity by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's not really a popular one 'cause it would increase salaries considerably, and as we all know that's anathema to the powers that are.

      Two words: Land grab. Them powers have managed to take ownership of the vast majority of the country. What ain't owned by the federal government (bureau of land management, military bases, this and that other area) is owned by the banks. Individuals who are not endemically wealthy hold a minuscule slice of the territory today.

      Oh noes, it's only been one minute since I last posted a comment. I couldn't possibly have anything useful to say in one minute, after speed-reading a chain of comments between the last one I replied to, and this one. Throttling comment posting rates ensures you will get two or three kinds of comments, and not all of them are good ones.

      Now it's only been two minutes. Fuck, the comments I can write in two minutes.

      Three minutes. THREE! HA HA HA.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Insecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? Is it a free market? Is gun ownership a right of the people, is law and order maintained by a benevolent limited form of government working towards the betterment of hte civil society? Clearly not.

      So what point are you trying to make? Please try again, and I suggest you are going to need more than a single sentence, or is that all you are capable of stringing together?

    7. Re:Insecurity by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Just wait until you run into my usual problem. "You've said enough for today, let someone else have a chance for a change" (or something like that).

      And yes, you're right. I don't know of a single "small" hotel that still belongs to its original owner. Usually it's either banks or they've been gobbled up by some chain.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Insecurity by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Gun ownership and the market are completely unregulated, and if you don't fucking work then you don't fucking eat. Outside of the government-controlled compound in the capital, the only limited form of benevolent government is the tribal leadership. Being far closer to your ideal than the oppressive western welfare states, they should at least be better off. Why aren't they?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    9. Re:Insecurity by greg1104 · · Score: 2

      "If you do not work you do not eat"? Spoken as a true corporate tool. Who defines what "work" is then? Guess what: the people with money do, as they always have. Ask a rich CEO why they deserve the highest compensation multiple of workers ever today, and they'll tell you all about how their work adds value!

      There's only place this road has ever led toward: rich people get so much negotiating power over poor ones they force them into inhumane working conditions, knowing they have to accept that or starve. You don't get a wonderful world--instead you'll just keep reinventing the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire for modern workers. Gotta lock the doors, can't have people in the factory stealing our precious iThings to sell them for food!

    10. Re:Insecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP here.

      If federal AGI is less than poverty level for family size, then...
      Take Poverty Level and subtract Federal AGI.
      Take half the difference.
      Take minimum of $5k/person or the above value. ($5k figure adjusted annually for inflation.)
      Give a refundable credit equal to that amount.

      Whether a single individual or a family of six, every citizen (and legal resident who has resided here for, let's say, 7 years) who has a federal AGI below the poverty level would qualify.

      A single individual, perhaps a homeless person, or maybe someone who is lazy and does nothing with his or her life, would get $5k. Why? Minimum(($11670 - $0) / 2,$5k) = Minimum($5835,$5k) = $5k.
      A family of six earning $17k/year: Minimum(($31970 - $17k,$5k * 6) = Minimum($7485,$30k) = $7485

      Granted that there are less than 20% in poverty in this country, this shouldn't really cost more than $300 billion per year. And yes, we should tax the rich more to do this, (and perhaps cut into the DoD too). And we should really do away with referring to different income earners as "class".

      As for other posters who may read this, I do not mean to replace the Earned Income Credit with this. I don't mean to replace SNAP with this either. This would be supplemental to what we have now. This credit, this program, I'm mentioning, is to ensure that people aren't as far away from escaping poverty as they would be otherwise.

      Some restrictions I would do...
      Can an individual taxpayer (or filer if income is $0) claim this credit?
      1. Is someone else claiming you as a dependent? If yes, CANNOT CLAIM. [STOP HERE] If no...
      2. Are you 22 years or older? If yes, YES. If no...
      3. Are you 18-21 years old AND living away from relatives? If yes, YES. If no...
      4. Are you under 18 AND emancipated? If yes, YES. If no. CANNOT CLAIM. [STOP HERE]

      My hope is that a number of poor people can get together and pool their credit in order to have a place to live. Imagine four homeless people willing to come together in order to live off of $20k/year plus SNAP (if qualified for foodstamps). In some of the less expensive cities, I think it could potentially be feasible.

    11. Re:Insecurity by ranmagirl · · Score: 1

      If you do not work you do not fuciking eat. Now that would be a wonderful world.
      Think of the massive increase in crime that would occur

      FTFY - Yeah, a real paradise.

      --
      ranma - girl?
  4. Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It may well be that 'sharing economy' is just a manifestation of a deeper problem, the inability of the drivers of development in the past century -- capitalism and democracy -- to cope with the problems the modern world is facing.

    The world needs a new political and economic systems that can tackle the problems we're facing, and tackle them efficiently and in a way that makes sense both locally and globally. It is most likely that these will evolve out of what we already have with the experience and frustrations we gain from trial-and-error experiments like the sharing economy, free online education and whatnot.

    1. Re:Maybe it is neither by ElBeano · · Score: 2

      It may well be that 'sharing economy' is just a manifestation of a deeper problem, the inability of the drivers of development in the past century -- capitalism and democracy -- to cope with the problems the modern world is facing.

      They're coping just fine, they're just not sharing. They'd rather put it in offshore taxshelters.

    2. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the inability of the drivers of development in the past century -- capitalism and democracy"

      Wait a minute, what? Where exactly is this "capitalism" you are talking about? The barter economy (sharing? WTF?) is about the best example of the free market that exists, very little of the worlds on the books economic systems represent true free markets anymore.

      You cannot say that capitalism has failed (capitalism is a shitty term, what you really mean is free market) because it doesn't exist. Whenever there is a state power that sees a potential to gain power and money by restricting or interfering with free trade it ALWAYS does so - this is the problem. It is when you get the state out of the way that the market and the people succeed.

      What you are speaking of when you say capitalism is really crony capitalism, that is corruption, collusion between the powerful in private industry and the state; this is not the free market but is in fact the exact opposite of the free market.

      You cannot solve problems until at the very least you truly understand what they are. And remember, the goal of the statist is to continue in his position of power as long as possible, he stays there only as long as the people do not see how they are being enslaved and tyrannized, so decieving them as to the true nature of thier positions is necessary. It seems to me they have been fabulously successful at this!

      Start back at the begining here, tell me where is this 'capitalism' this truly free market that exists? You cannot. The start to peel back the onion citizen, use your brain, use reason. Open your eyes and start to see the chains that are in reality on you.

    3. Re:Maybe it is neither by Cenan · · Score: 1

      What we're witness to in the present is not coping, it is a transition. Productivity has increased massively, to the point where employers can lay off huge chunks of their work force and still churn out the same amount of widgets. This works while other employers have still not done so, thereby ensuring that a majority of the work force is still employed.

      But what happens when all of industry arrives at the ~100% automation point, the point where all the employees left are the ones with a CxO title? Laying off workers is the sound economic decision in the short term, but if everyone is doing it, and your customers are basically other companies' employees, what then? You can hide all your ill gotten gains in tax shelters all you want it won't matter.

      I think OP is right, we do need a new system from the ground up, and I think it will come about either through foresightedness or through necessity (violence perhaps, I hope not), because the current economic and political models aren't near good enough. And smart .01%'ers will realize this before its too late, because their fortunes will most likely be worth exactly jack shit when a new society emerges to deal with the problems their caste has created.

      --
      ... whatever ...
    4. Re:Maybe it is neither by furytrader · · Score: 2

      I will start worrying when all human needs are being met 100% of the time. Until then, there is room for innovation and there will be opportunity.

    5. Re:Maybe it is neither by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Smart .01%'ers are already realizing it, they can see what's coming. I even once agrressively overheard some Albertan oil zillionaires talking about what a great idea mincome is for preventing unrest.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re:Maybe it is neither by JMandingo · · Score: 1

      This is just my theory, but I believe the sudden relaxation of marijuana laws globally is a result of the .01%'ers starting to get worried. The rabble are rousing, we must unleash the opiates for the masses!

      --
      Vonnegut was right: Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are, "It might have been."
    7. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While it is true that the mega-wealthy are hoarding money, unable to spend it fast/wisely enough. They are also spending tremendous amounts of money on their pet hobbies. Elon Musk -> SpaceX, Bill Gates -> disease research, Jeff Bezos -> Asteroid mining, Richard Branson -> Virgin Galactic, etc.

      The problem is the lords of our new feudal society have an iron mentality that even their pet hobbies have a financial payoff. Everything they do has to further aggregate the wealth among the few.

      This has been a problem at some times in history, and at other times the concentration of wealth by the winners has been balanced out by the total loss of wealth by the losers.

      Of course the total wealth of the civilisation (by now we surely only have one, even if we are multiple in nation) continues to increase, but that is of no consolation to the increasing numbers of losers who have been excluded from the wealth.

      It would be wise as an individual to specialise in the hobbies of our feudal lords, as those who keep close to the wealth will surely become wealthy themselves, but this is no solution for society as a whole, as the demand for labor is not sufficient for the demand for jobs.

    8. Re:Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 0

      Capitalism is the organization of the economy in every place where you can own capital and use it more or less freely to do business and turn a profit. Depending on the structure of the political system in which a particular capitalist economy is operating there may be serious problems, including corruption, but it is still capitalism.

      "Free market" is an altogether different and not very useful concept. I avoid using it and prefer instead to categorize specific markets by the degree of competition they allow and the effects this has on the factors of production, prices and market organization.

    9. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "where you can own capital and use it more or less freely to do business and turn a profit"

      These are two different things, property ownership is necessary to any free society and required to support a free market, and yes capitalism rests on the foundation of property ownership, but that does not describe what it is. to do business and turn a profit' I don't even know what this means. Do business, this just means transactions does it not? Turn a profit, ok fine, nice goal. One eats, one poops, but you really haven't said anything.

      '"Free market" is an altogether different and not very useful concept.'

      How so? The free market simply means that the buyer and seller are free to determine the price of a product or service among themselves. This is the best of all possible economies in which case the buyer, seller and producer all are able to get the best price in a transaction. Some degree of regulation is required to preserve the 'freedom' which as you can see is never truly free, but can only be approached. But in the end when the buyer and seller are left alone is when the tru value of a product or service is really allowed to rule.

      Capitalism and the free market are not the same. Check.

    10. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do business, this just means transactions does it not?

      No, not really. In means to use your capital to develop products, acquire or rent factors of production, manufacture the products, then sell them and do that at a price that provides to everyone involved returns that are at least comparable to their second-best opportunity. Or, if you can't, then it would mean losses, using up your capital and going broke. If you operate in an economy in which you are allowed to own your capital and do these, then it is a capitalist economy.

      If you are not allowed to own capital, then it isn't capitalism.

      How so?

      I already explained. A 'free market' is a phrase that can cover any kind of market structure, from perfect competition to monopoly. In all cases, the price of a product in these may be determined 'freely' by the agents, in the sense that no government will be involved. Yet, these will be markets with very different outcomes, and with very different implications about the economy and the society. So, the term is too ambiguous and gives a lot of opportunity for goal shifting in any discussion.

    11. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are picking nits here.

      A free market is opposed to a planned economy which is the system that occurs when you allow statist control, and a monopoly will always tend to statism, government collusion and crony capitalism. True enough you may technically see private property ownership, but this is exactly my point, when private industry is combined with state controls, regulation and market interference (crony capitalism) this is about as far from a free market as you can get. But far too many people equate capitalism and the free market, and then blame the free market for the failings of a planned centralized economy. This is false.

    12. Re:Maybe it is neither by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      The rabble are rousing, we must unleash the opiates for the masses!

      They aren't very smart if they think marijuana contains opiates.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    13. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that is of no consolation to the increasing numbers of losers who have been excluded from the wealth.

      The sad thing is that anyone thinks that is true - a rising tide raises all boats, and the same is true of general prosperity.

      The "poor" in America live like kings compared to the TRULY poor of Africa. Even in the poorest neighborhood of the poorest state if an entire class of 200 children was abducted there would be a tremendous hue and cry. In Africa, the poor are truly ignored instead of having people tripping over themselves as they do here claiming to want to help them.

    14. Re:Maybe it is neither by sjames · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. For example, an economy where most necessities and many nice-to-haves are produced by state owned companies but individuals and non-state groups are permitted to compete if they can would have an element of capitalism and would be a market economy, but not really capitalism as a whole.

      I don't know of a country that does that with everything, but several handle healthcare that way.

    15. Re:Maybe it is neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just spent all my mod points on this thread. Best black-and-white "free markets" (like in free energy if it weren't for evil powers that be) vs "everything is bound to become monopoly if not regulated" convo in a while.

      Not-so-tl;dr: It might resemble chicken and egg, but ultimately is all just semantics. Either government (politics, taxes, corruption - all that shebang) creates platform for "non-free markets", or "free markets" inevitably result funky stuff which actually sorta kinda resemble government - simply because it's just business, nothing personal. Mercenaries, blackmail, protection racket, rent etc.

      One last thing - government is form of regional monopoly (essentially "owns" the area, and dictates rules), in real terms is pretty equal to free-market sovereign mega-corps. People are just shareholders (where amount of owned local currency equals to voting power).

      Also, there is no true monopoly in "market sector of governments". If your landlord sucks, simply move. America has been leader in landlord market sector up until recently, but their corporate HQ screwed somehow - if it weren't for that, they were on a good path to become actual monopoly (influence of dollar = real influence of america). When we have single body NWO and terms like sovereignty are redundant, when there is only one and true king, then we can talk monopoly.

      There is one interesting but largely ignored line of thought in economics: While true monopolies (or cartels, market segmentation, or even non-aggression pacts between countries - all the same thing) tend to happen quite often, and are indeed very bad for "consumer slash citizen" in the end, they also tend to implode eventually because no enlightened dictator (or politics clique actually acting on behalf of common good, CEO actually following through of "do no evil") lasts forever. Bigger is often better, thanks to economies of scale, but the top dog tends to live not for long - many betas are after his head. Also increased entropy. Ask black holes.

    16. Re:Maybe it is neither by tepples · · Score: 1

      Cannabinoids are not opioids, but I think JMandingo's point was that their effects are similar in ways.

    17. Re:Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 0

      In my experience, this model has the potential to work successfully only in areas of the economy that are 'market failures' (i.e. significant departures from competition and economic efficiency) for some reason. And it is damned hard to get the proper regulations and controls right even then.

    18. Re:Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 0

      Your problem is that you have the basics backwards and you try to solve this by arguing over definitions, and then you devolve in 'open your eyes sheeple' crap. This doesn't make you right, however.

      Capitalism, a mode of the economy in which factors of production are privately owned and their output is voluntarily traded, exists all over the world. The 'free market' you're talking about is one idealization of one aspect of this system. Unlike capitalism, it is this 'free market' (the correct term is 'competitive market', where nobody has any power to dictate factor or good prices, or output levels) that does not exist.

      Your attempt at analysis is also faulty because you aren't making distinctions between how and why phenomena that have similar effects come about and develop. A market distortion that occurs in a 'free market' under a natural monopoly (and yes, in the absence of government regulation, a natural monopoly is a 'free market', although not a competitive one) is a very different beast from the distortions of an economy that develop under a corrupt government, although they may share some similar effects once in place.

      The problem I'm discussing is that a democratic political system operating a capitalist economy tends to reliably get into the state you call 'crony capitalism' over time because of the way the two interact, free market or not. Hence the need for an improvement. Pushing for a 'free market' utopia is about as much a solution to this problem as pushing for a communism of the Marx variety would be.

    19. Re:Maybe it is neither by sjames · · Score: 1

      However, practically all examples work better than allowing the failed market to continue.

    20. Re:Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 0

      I think this is a hard case to argue, and the reason is most often the failure of the political process to properly assess the economics of the measures. Usually, the better the assessment, the better the chances of success, but government involvement is hardly a 100% success story.

    21. Re:Maybe it is neither by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's not hard in broad terms to rank the quality and cost of healthcare in the 1st world.

      No doubt, the countries with socialized medicine could do better but none do as badly as the U.S.

    22. Re:Maybe it is neither by siddesu · · Score: 0

      This is a complicated argument, and I'm not prepared to participate (no experience with the US health system anyway), but doesn't Obamacare help?

    23. Re:Maybe it is neither by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I think the relaxation of marijuana laws in and of itself is frightening to the powers that be. Democracy is actually happening. People are getting what they want and are no longer scared of boogeymen. Illegal drugs are massively profitable for those in power, not because of the drugs themselves, but because of everything that comes with making them illegal. Corrupt governments in south America they can conspire with. Cheap labor from illegals fleeing the blood-drenched narco states. Militarized police to keep people in line. Private prisons to throw them in when they get uppity. The taxation of the scared white middle class. All the power those situations concentrate in the hands of the ruling class.

      But legalized drugs threaten that entire power structure. Without the insane profits of illegal drugs, the cartels will have no power, the prisons will empty, the militarized police won't be able to keep the lower classes in line without an easy way to throw them in jail.

      Democracy is actually starting to happen around the world (think Egypt) and the old power structures are no longer so secure, and it's scaring the shit out of the elites.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    24. Re:Maybe it is neither by sjames · · Score: 1

      Obamacare is mandatory insurance with assistance for those who can't afford it. That plus some reforms in the health insurance industry is helpful to the poor and to those who were un-insurable before, but it really doesn't get at the fact that we pay way too much for healthcare in the first place and so pay too much for the insurance (due to the failure of the market). Arguably, it actually increases the overall cost by adding an additional layer of management to the process.

  5. It really does not matter why...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    .....as long as it works. Yes, its only after a big frekkin financial crisis and the recession in its wake that people start looking desperately for alternative models, but that doesn't mean the model is not valid beyond that. It is a well known fact of historical process that the origin of a cultural tradition and its maintenance may occur for different reasons; one may begin the sharing economy experiment out of sheer financial desperation and later find it to have other benefits. Most of all, I find this artificial boundary between 'sharing economy' and 'real economy' to be utter BS.
     
      This article smells like another trite argument for Homo Economicus from someone whose economic opinions have been mass produced from a mold during the industrial revolution.

    1. Re:It really does not matter why...... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Any business model that is forged out of desperation rather than want and need is doomed to fail in the long run.

      There are businesses that exist because they're beneficial for both parties. They are usually very long lasting because both parties have an interest to continue. As soon as you force one party into the contract, they will start looking left and right for alternatives and for ways out of it. Eventually people forced into such a situation will even out of spite try to get out, even if that means an economic disadvantage that is at least survivable.

      For reference, see pretty much any adhesion contract in history.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Wait you mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Do you mean to say people do things for money? And even that cheaper comparable services supplant more expensive ones, oh crap it's almost like capitalism! Better break out the beatin sticks, can't have none of that.

  7. Money isn't always involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are services which focus on actual sharing, not short-term renting. For example Couchsurfing or HospitalityClub.

    1. Re:Money isn't always involved by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      HospitalityClub has been moribund for a good six years now. The founder no longer develops the site, it is overrun with spammers and dead profiles.

      Couchsurfing was run by a collective of friends that once sought non-profit status, but when they realized that meant giving up control, the founder sold the company to a venture capitalist firm who is now looking at ways to monetize it, so it might not stay free for long. One of its competitors who went the same route ultimately became an apartment rentals service. Plus, it has been a problem for years that many active hosts on CS are interested only in sharing sex -- you get a positive reply to your request only if you are an attractive young female travelling alone.

      There are hospitality exchange communities that are really based on an idealism that opening one's home to travelers at no cost and intercultural exchange are good, but HC and CS are no longer good examples.

    2. Re:Money isn't always involved by theIsovist · · Score: 1

      As a male couchsurfer who has both hosted and traveled with the service, I would argue you have some misconceptions about the system. Most recently stayed in Chur, Switzerland with a host (male, straight) who picked me up at the train station, offered a couch to sleep on in his apartment, and then proceeded to give me a tour of the town and act as a translator. All in all, he asked for nothing in return but a good story. That has been the norm for the entire time I've been on couchsurfing (around 6 years now), and from my discussion with others in the group, my experience is common. The people who seem to have a difficulty using the system are those who don't understand that couchsurfing, while free, isn't free. While you could hop into town, sleep on someone's couch and leave, that's not the spirit of the system. The system revolves around the idea of the gift, that these people are opening up their home and lives to you. Ideally, you should be there to exchange culture, stories. I found it was helpful to offer to buy my hosts drinks for the night, or offer to pay for their dinner, but this is by no means a requirement. However, for the price of a meal, I was able to share in someone's life. This was inevitably cheaper than renting a hotel room, and far more enlightening.

    3. Re:Money isn't always involved by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Look, not to be rude, but as a male couchsurfer who signed up for the network in January 2006 (so well before the crash), who surfed a couple of hundred couches worldwide, who hosted a couple of hundred people, and was very involved in the debate over the site's direction, I probably have more experience than you. (Though after the ramifications of Casey selling the site out became felt, I left for another hospex community around 18 months ago.)

      Of course a male who sends out many requests is likely to find at least one male host who is interested simply in sharing, but he is also likely to get refusals from hosts who are looking for something else. That has always been a problem in certain countries, but became increasingly visible across the board as the years went by. If you deny that, I can only imagine that you don't read the CS groups and have not read the experiences of female travellers in their blogs, or talked to male nomadic ambassadors.

      The people who seem to have a difficulty using the system are those who don't understand that couchsurfing, while free, isn't free.

      My post had nothing to do with CS etiquette (one cannot be a polite guest to a host until one has actually received a positive request to a well-written request), so I don't understand why you are even bringing this up.

    4. Re:Money isn't always involved by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      That should read "one cannot be a polite guest to a host until one has actually received a positive response to a well-written request", sorry.

  8. Supply and Demand and Opportunity by retroworks · · Score: 1

    Sure, there is obviously a supply and demand effect when the economy no longer supports six figure college loan repayments. But to say that is the "cause" ignores that it was impossible to do 20 years ago. Advertising was at one point a huge barrier to entry for bed and breakfast type industries, people had to be aware of your product and had to trust someone with no brand awareness. Now it's simply easy to advertise your couch, ability, etc., and easy to set up a rating system.

    As evidence, look at the growth of ebay when the economy was incredibly strong. The reasoning in the article is that "the economy is weak, therefore people sell used items on ebay." May or may not be true but does not explain growth of peer to peer economies.

    --
    Gently reply
  9. Trust vs Desperation... by bayankaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    True, its about desperation, not necessarily an extra layer of 'internet trust'.
    The US is unique in developed economies - luxuries are cheap...big screen TV, a car and so on. But necessities are expensive...healthcare, decent education, and to an extent housing.

    --
    Tat Tvam Asi
    1. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Necessities in the US are heavily regulated. Luxuries - not so much.

      Cars are getting more expensive as companies have to make more money off of fuel efficient compact cars to make up for not being able to sell as many gas guzzlers.

      TVs, however, are getting cheaper all the time.

    2. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      In short it is a problem of eroding middle class.
      If you are poor, then you can get government assistance for food, heat, healthcare, and even housing support.

      If you are rich, you convince the government not to tax you on many of the things used to create your wealth.

      Which leaves the middle class who is shrinking to take on the burden.
      We make too much get subsidies, but we also not make enough to really take advantage of the breaks.

      So lets take a average family house hold of 90k a year for 3 people. That sounds like a solid middle class number, in some locations it would be upper middle class.

      So after taxes per month they get about 4.5k.
      2k goes to their home mortgage.
      1k will go towards grocery/cleaning supplies (food has gotten expensive)
      0.5k will go towards fuel for 2 cars.
      0.5k goes to power/telephone/internet/TV

      This leaves roughly $500 per month. Now if they have to make care payments and/or school loans they add up too. Meaning this middle class family is just getting by. Sure there are areas where they can cut. but with a family of three, it will be difficult as every person tends to have different ideas where to cut.

      A lot of the Luxury stuff. TV, Video Games, Computers... You save up and buy. However the problem today that is really affecting the middle class are the cost of living. Now once the mortgage is payed off then you can start having an advantage. But before that you are struggling. This is also the time in your life where you have the energy and need to bring up a family.

      As far as a solution I see the government needs to do the following.
      1. Insure Food/Fuel prices remain low. This will mean we need to adjust for global warming, Encourage growth to the new more fertile lands and away from the new dangerous risky places (Sorry California). Invest into alternative energy to make it price competitive with fossil fuels. The extra competition will reduce demand for fuel thus bring down prices further, so those who need the fossil fuels can have it at a better rate, as well those who don't need it will have cheap greener alternatives. There is also a need to encourage the populations tastes, towards healthy foods, that are more sustainable and cheaper to produce. Poultry vs. Red Meet, Native to North America/that can grow in the wild without much help Fruits and Vegetables. If we can convince a good part of the population to vote Tea Party even if it is against their own interests, why is it so hard to get people to eat food that it is towards their own self interest.

      2. Mixed Class Neighborhoods. Right now people are stuck on the value of their homes and make communities where the rich live one place, and poor live somewhere else. This is what keeps housing from being affordable. As new housing developments will try to attract "Better People" as to raise the areas property values. Thus making low income housing in decaying areas of the communities. When they build a new housing developments they need to be required to properly house the general population. A few low income homes, a few High End homes, and a bulk of middle class, and have them mixed. The problem we have today. The Rich do not understand or have emotionally forgotten what it is like to be poor. The Poor doesn't understand or have any roll models on how to advance up. The middle class is stuck with attributes of both. Mixed communities overall will be much more positive. Yes these poor people will lower the property values... But that means people will be getting nicer homes for less, and I expect with the poor people living in nicer neighborhoods, they will not bring it down that much, as they will work to keep their area presentable just to not look like the local poor person.

      3. Reduce taxes and government spending and regulations. Well lets refine this, we need to do this in the right areas. There are a lot of laws towards individual safety vs. Public safety. We are able to successfully sue people and companies for a range of stuff.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by Shados · · Score: 1

      All new developments in a lot of cities already require 10%+ of low income units.

      You're not going to convince anyone to buy a house in anything beyond that for a simple reason: As it is, even a 100% "rich" development only needs 1 annoying dick to ruin it for hundreds of people, and while cities have laws to stop someone from putting a fucking wind chime next to your bedroom window, or having their kids scream all day and all night, good luck getting them to enforce it.

      So then you'll end up straight back to square 1, with the mixed neighborhoods where someone found a loop hole, and the mixed neighborhoods where they didn't. Thats already what happens with section 8 housing.

      Make it that 1 annoying idiot doesn't ruin the neighborhood for everyone, and the upper middle class will be the first ones lining up requesting mixed neighborhoods.

    4. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      So lets take a average family house hold of 90k a year for 3 people. That sounds like a solid middle class number, in some locations it would be upper middle class. So after taxes per month they get about 4.5k. 2k goes to their home mortgage. 1k will go towards grocery/cleaning supplies (food has gotten expensive) 0.5k will go towards fuel for 2 cars. 0.5k goes to power/telephone/internet/TV This leaves roughly $500 per month. Now if they have to make care payments and/or school loans they add up too. Meaning this middle class family is just getting by. Sure there are areas where they can cut. but with a family of three, it will be difficult as every person tends to have different ideas where to cut.

      Your numbers are wrong, starting with your after-tax income. A 3-person married-filing-jointly household grossing $90K would pay ~$8k in income tax and ~$7k in payroll tax, which works out to ~$75k (or $6,250/month) net. Even using your spending estimates, the household should have $2250 left over.

      Of course, even your spending numbers are inflated compared to what people in "normal" (non-NYC, non-DC, non-SV) parts of the country pay. In Atlanta, for instance, my 3bed/2bath 1500 ft^2 house costs $800/month, food for 2 costs ~$350/month (so food for 3 would cost ~$550), vehicle maintenance costs ~$300, and utilities cost ~$300 for a total "necessary" spending of ~$1950/month and ~$4300 left over. (All those spending estimates are rounded up, by the way.)

      Oh, by the way: median household income in the US is $53K, which is not anywhere close to $90k. With an estimate that far off, you might be among the "rich who do not understand what it is like to be poor." ; ) (FYI, a $53K-earning household pays ~$6.5k in taxes and has ~$2k/month left over using my budget numbers.)

      I'm not going to complain about your proposed solutions, though!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, don't be ridiculous. If we charged more for big TVs, people would just stop buying them. But when we double the price of grandma's pills, she keeps buying them anyway. It's like printing your own money!

    6. Re:Trust vs Desperation... by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

      And strangely enough, government is deeply involved in how those necessities are produced and/or paid for and/or actually producing them.

      Could just be a coincidence, I suppose ...

      --
      There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  10. "Necessity is the mother of invention" by monkease · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...but I don't think that the only necessities are economic (...as both dyed-thru Marxists and Neocons seem to? I get that this is not you). While it's true the trigger for my involvement with "sharing"--from free-as-in-beer file-sharing to using Airbnb to potlucks to etc. etc.--may sometimes be economic, "because I can't afford to otherwise" doesn't actually make it in the top three of my reasons, now very much engaged with "sharing," for continuing in it.

    The New Intimacy is new not because humans are different, but because more are more available than ever before. #internet

    Economic "realists" are the children who built the world variously self-destructing.

    1. Re:"Necessity is the mother of invention" by udippel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...but I don't think that the only necessities are economic (...as both dyed-thru Marxists and Neocons seem to? I get that this is not you). While it's true the trigger for my involvement with "sharing"--from free-as-in-beer file-sharing to using Airbnb to potlucks to etc. etc.--may sometimes be economic, "because I can't afford to otherwise" doesn't actually make it in the top three of my reasons, now very much engaged with "sharing," for continuing in it.

      The New Intimacy is new not because humans are different, but because more are more available than ever before.
       

      Perceive yourself being modded up 'Insightful'.

      It is a new economic paradigm that currently evolves. Until recently, economics was based on the distribution of scare resources. And Marx didn't live to see this new aspect. Therefore, despite of his usefulness of his work in our days, his insights need to be accompanied by the only-evolving paradigm of managing an oversupply.
      Combine this with the concept of the necessity of growth, and we all run into troubled times. Because the necessity of growth is by mathematical definition not linear but exponential. Compound interest, in case you don't understand the pure term.
      Overall, an exponential growth is needed [so teach us the prevailing economic theories], while on the other hand an oversupply with decreasing prices [due to great leaps in productivity] kind of drowns us in mountains of consumables.

    2. Re:"Necessity is the mother of invention" by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      I was torn whether to mod this up or reply to it. In the end, the point I thought needed making was that the post-scarcity economy we all seem to be celebrating is about to run into the peak-resources problem. Unless an author talks both, they are a blind philosopher describing an elephant.

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    3. Re:"Necessity is the mother of invention" by udippel · · Score: 1

      I was torn whether to mod this up or reply to it..

      In the end you could have modded me up. Not that I really cared, but your contribution was kind of implicit. Plus the actual scarcity of a clean environment. Look at recent pictures of Beijing, where everyone is currently trying to stack up cars. Also a peak-resource variant, though on the other end of the production cycle.

      I'd prefer a blind philosopher any day compared to those celebrating the post-scarcity. They are effectively delirious suicide candidates.

    4. Re:"Necessity is the mother of invention" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without contradicting anything, there may be an additional factor (and I see this in my step-kids) - much of the previous economy, such as taxis and post offices and phone calls, were based on human interactions. These are increasingly seen as embarrassing and awkward, and best avoided. As soon as regular taxi companies start using clever apps, GPS, online payment, and ratings, my stepkids would start using them.

  11. When I ask why the poor have no food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It couldn't possibly be due from a massive market failure to meet reasonable expectations of service and cost, aided and abetted by regulation could it? Naaw.

    The sharing economy could more broadly be defined as everything from bit torrent ("how could these people be giving away their data and bandwidth away for free? Don't they know how much more they could make restricting access like the RIAA does by simply providing counterfeit goods?") to open source software to ride sharing (heaven forbid people carpool and share the costs) to renting out rooms.

    What New York Magazine should really be addressing is how is it possible in a time of such abundance there are so many left in need. It isn't even a call to communism exactly in as much as saying the current system is fucking a lot of people over.

    And what's worse is how much effort is being put towards disallowing people from sharing rides or subletting a room simply because it threatens established businesses that have paid a lot of bribes to get to their current positions of regulatory capture.

    Would people really be doing this if housing and transportation where far cheaper? Why haven’t those benefited from the invisible hand?

  12. Much of what is wrong with our economy by MikeRT · · Score: 2

    Can be seen in those who defend the taxi system on the grounds of "consumer protection." People might get overcharged? Not a justifiction for a system so blatantly anti-consumer as the taxi regulations across the country that turned what should be a low barrier to entry job with modest pay into a very lucrative position that blatantly uses the power of the state to shaft customers out of competition. I mean FFS, the car has an odometer. All you need is a law requiring the driver to provide the start and end mileage to the customer and to have them agree verbally to a rate per mile.

    1. Re:Much of what is wrong with our economy by udippel · · Score: 1, Insightful

      All you need is a law requiring the driver to provide the start and end mileage to the customer and to have them agree verbally to a rate per mile.

      Huh!? I wouldn't want to succumb to 'supply and demand' when I am standing in the middle of nowhere, at 23:00, and urgently need to go to some civilized place. Or back home. I don't want to do any haggling with a cab driver, and the next one and the third one, and so forth, until someone offered me a suitable price.
      I had to do this when living in Asia, and I was very sick of this.

  13. Affordable waste versus unaffordable waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People have limited amounts of money and time. When time and effort are low people are more likely to make efforts to save or extract value through things like 'sharing'. The internet has made it cheaper to share, and sell goods and services. Additionally inflation and high joblessness have made money more scarce and less valuable. So, people now sell and share more because they have more time and less money (on average). And they share more because it's easier and cheaper than ever to do.

  14. I agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Things are going to have to get very bad for change though. The forces for the status quo are way too strong and powerful.

    Even I, a peon getting screwed over by the system, is a bit scared of it - eliminate democracy? Whoah!

    Anyway, when things change too radically, extrememly bad things happen - like Hitler, Stalin, Castro, ...

    Capitalism works fine within the norrow confines of economic activity and with plenty government checks. Nineteenth century USA business history is a great example of Laissez-Faire capitalism and what a disaster it was environmentally, economically, politically and socially. Even the US Right's patron saint, Adam Smith, warned about the dangers Capitalism - something that's been forgotten or ignored.

    But as the World becomes ever more populated and natural resources become even more stretchly thinned, something is gonna break.

    The Free Markets are thrown around as a pancea for the World's woes, but tell a couple of billion cold, starving, thirsty people that they just need to cough the money and work harder and they too can have what they need. I don't know, I just think Roman Empire and barbarians invading.

    But like I said above, unless there is a catastrophy we won't change. The status quo - the economic bullies - have got theirs and they are not going to let it go. Their primitive and shallow desires are dragging us all down. Their desire to leave legacies to their offspring has them getting their bitches in legisaltures to allow for generational accumulation of wealth - aristocracies - and we all know what happens with that: revolution and mass death.

    My fellow peons who stick up for the economic bullies will stand behind them - out of aspiration, fear of change or because of human nature to identify with one's abuser (I think that's why so many Right Wingers stand up for the Koch's and other businessmen who harm their economic interests.)

  15. Sharing by purnima · · Score: 2

    has been the domain of the rich. This is because sharing was moderated by expensive middle men. If you own a castle in Britain, you are likely to regularly share some of the rooms (short-term renting them out through an expensive agency). But it wasn't easy to rent out that extra room or your basement in your three bedroom suburban house, because there was no affordable way to efficiently access that market (the market structure was very thin for short term renting).

    Now the rest of us can partake in the sharing economy, agency costs have dropped dramatically for the stuff that the rest of us own.

    1. Re:Sharing by ruir · · Score: 1

      Best comment I have read. I still cant get why people give 10% so easily to real estate agencies tough, for instance. I understand the buyer can trust the agency will make some background checks, however I cant get to the motivation of the seller.

  16. Wired is shite by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

    Wired is shite, always has been and will be.

    I'm surprised it doesn't have plain white cover with rounded corners, that's the kind of people who read it (or rather, look at the pictures in it).

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  17. Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Then started a new cycle where the skill those workers had were incorporated into robotics, again forcing us to develop a new set of meta-skills because it can crank out parts with near perfect precision 24x7 and it was back to huge production lines.

    That plant the laid off its workers only needs a handful of folks to maintain the robots. It's NOT a one to one transition. It's at least a 10 to 1 DOWNSIZING.

    Now those skills are being incorporated into electronics, and we're again looking for new meta skills. It all comes full circle again and again.

    Everytime the "circle" goes around LESS labor is needed.

    Just where are those workers going to go because other industries are not absorbing them - the employment numbers proves it.

    Look at today's big comanies - like Amazon. They have about 30,000 employees.

    A couple of decades ago, a company that size would have had a million people of ALL skill levels working there. But automation has made things much more efficient. Cheaper for the rest of us, sure. But what to do with all the displaced workers? Retrain? For what?

    All the new big companies only need a fraction of employees needed before.

    EVERY industry is doing this. There is no indsutry that is increasing their workforce - none. Even medical is becoming more efficient and (ever so slowly) automating on the lower levels. And there's other changes too.

    And that is what get's me about the fetish of policy makers who want manufacturing to come back to the US: it'll be done by robots.

    In the 19th century, Western society went from on labor intensive economy (Agriculture) to another (Manufacturing). So, there was opportunity for transistion.

    But today, new industries are going straight to automation (or off-shoring), old industries are doing the same, and there's a ever decreasing pool of jobs for people - and as a result, wages are declining in real terms.

    Just making straight comparisons with the past and today and strugging off social and economic changes that is hurting the average guy is the wrong analysis and the numbers prove it.

    1. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One thing you're forgetting here; someone has to buy the product.

      Who?

      You can either take out a business loan and setup shop, or your customers can do it for you. Take your pick.

      Credit Card Debt is at an all time high, and most people are spending capital on just subsistence stuff. That's it.

      There will be change, and it will be painful.

    2. Re: Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not going to be a painful change. It's going to be a fatal refusal to stop going the wrong way on principle.

    3. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One thing you're forgetting here; someone has to buy the product.

      Demand drops because less people can afford the goods, The price moves up the indifference curve and less goods are produced. Simple. Eventually the economy of scale diminishes, the factory stops being profitable, and it is shuttered, as so many already have been. All the while the gross and net margins for those left playing goes up and they can continue to afford those $200k automobiles, $30k computers, and $10M houses.

      I don't see the problem here.

    4. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You will, when they turn up at your doorstep screaming for your blood because you're a have.

    5. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by zippthorne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not zero sum. After the layoff, the 9 other workers are freed to make something else. At the founding of the nation, something like 80% of the workforce worked in agriculture. Over time, mechanization and improved techniques have lead to the present day fraction of something like 2%. The 78% of the workforce didn't starve to death, they went and did other, more interesting things, and now we have airplanes, computers, movies...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    6. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      The other 78% moved into another high labor demand field, manufacturing. When this happen, there was a real strain on the agriculture industry because of the labor shortage it created. Much of the mechanization in agriculture was out of neccessity, not just for profit. There is no labor shortage in manufacturing driving the mechanization. Labor is being pushed out rather than pulled out by something else.

      We are reaching a state in our society where there simply is not enough work for everyone to maintain a middle class livelihood. Maintaining the status of the middle class will require a radical shift where the value of jobs currently seen as low value (such as a store clerk) goes up. You need to be able to make a real career at anything. Different examples of this can be seen throughout the world (such as the skilled fastfood workers in Japan), but they have not all come together under one society yet. Huge leaps in the minimum wage would be a good start, but the problem is a lot more complex than that. Changes in how education is accessed, single payer healthcare, and fundamental changes in the world's monetary systems are inevitably needed. There is no longer the scarcity of resources that once existed, and much of the current scarcity is artificial to keep profitability. This is stupid. People right here in the United States go hungry, but we have more than enough food to make everyone fat.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    7. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not zero sum. After the layoff, the 9 other workers are freed to make something else.

      Free? Free to be unemployed, desperately searching for anything that pays any sort of wage at all while half the politicians in the country call them leeches? There is no freedom in a layoff.

      Oh and don't forget that year after year fewer people are recoded as being part of the working population. That number was once frighteningly near near 100% (the days of child labor), now it is below 60%. Add in the unemployed numbers and barely half of the population has a way to support themselves. Little does the other half know that they are 'free to make something else'.

      Saying that people who are laid off can just go do something else is so out of touch to be morally disgusting and intellectually inept.

    8. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by denzacar · · Score: 1

      Both the AC parent and its parent are arguing tangential points as if they are opposite.

      Now those skills are being incorporated into electronics, and we're again looking for new meta skills. It all comes full circle again and again.

      Everytime the "circle" goes around LESS labor is needed.
      Just where are those workers going to go because other industries are not absorbing them - the employment numbers proves it.
      Look at today's big comanies - like Amazon. They have about 30,000 employees.

      AC's parent is not arguing that less labor is NOT needed.
      AC's parent is arguing that what the OP said about Marx not foreseeing the productivity increases in the 20th century is... well... pointless.
      Because the ACTUAL increase in productivity which caused "so many paid workers would simply be laid off" actually already happened in the 18th and the 19th century - which served Marx as both spark and the fuel for his ideas.

      As for the parents question "Just where are those workers going to go " - he answers the part of that unwittingly.

      Look at today's big comanies - like Amazon. They have about 30,000 employees.

      A couple of decades ago, a company that size would have had a million people of ALL skill levels working there. But automation has made things much more efficient. Cheaper for the rest of us, sure. But what to do with all the displaced workers? Retrain? For what?

      A couple of decades ago, a company like Amazon would not have existed. I.e. New industries are created.

      Then, there's that cyclic push that AC's parent mentions.
      Right now we are at the stage where people are being pushed into learning new meta skills as he/she puts it.

      Now those skills are being incorporated into electronics, and we're again looking for new meta skills.

      Only we're already beyond electronics now. It's software that's running things at this point.
      Anyone notice all those efforts to make everyone a coder? Or at least every child?
      You think that's done because coding is fun?

      Then, there is all that service industry growth. Personal this, private that...

      Still... All that does not answer the question "what to do with ALL the displaced workers".
      That answers the question what is being done.
      Note how none if it is being done by "the invisible hand" but by actual government and industry backed efforts.
      Also, how most of the industry exists only because at some point in the past the government needed machines that can count and calculate really fast.

      The real question is how big is the sum of the unemployed workforce which the society can absorb and bare before it starts caving in on itself.
      Oh... and reducing the number of people in a society is not the solution to any of the problems.

      Particularly in the case where a big part of the reason WHY that may SEEM as a solution is because of conditions created through export of labor to societies which outnumber your society 3-5 to 1, whose biggest problem for growth both in size and in living standards was the lack of labor.

      What happens when it turns out all your workers are either a tiny group of calculators (mostly in banking, then in engineering) and the rest are in some service industry or the other and all your stuff is made by someone else?
      Hint: Most of your workers are servants. And your thinkers' next logical step is to replace them ALL with robots.

      Unless you decide on taking up SOME socialism along the way, cutting the profit margin in order to maintain jobs for skilled workers and local industries, that's a recipe for a takeover by those other societies with far more workers to keep busy and THEIR robots which YOU paid THEM to make for YOU.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    9. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      And yet I see signs everyday about positions open. They generally don't pay as good as the jobs these people were used to but the reality is it may be neccessary for them to work their way back up in another field.

    10. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So where should all these people displaced by automation work instead? Where's the new labor markets?

      The problem is we're in the midst of laying off 90% of the workforce thanks to automation, and we have no new industries for those unskilled laborers to move into. Yes, they've been freed to do other things, but there's no other things for them to do. Most people simply are not suited to becoming a robotics maintenance technician, movie producer, or banker. And even if they were there still wouldn't be enough jobs available. We only need so much manufacturing potential to supply all our desires, and if one person can maintain the robots needed to produce everything wanted by 100 people then you've got 99 people in a hundred that can't be involved in manufacturing. Ditto in fast food production, warehouse workers, barbers, etc, etc,etc. which are all beginning to be automated. Even in movie production CG characters are beginning to become more commonplace, which will eventually put most actors out on the street. And banking, where expert systems can outperform all but the most skilled, and at a far faster pace.

      If 10% of the population can provide for everything wanted by everyone, then our current economic model has a major problem, because everyone else needs a way to acquire the funds to purchase the things. And it the 10% are the only ones making an income from widely desired goods, then they are the only source of income for the rest, and you've got 9 people trying to supply enough bonus luxury goods to each productive member to keep food in their own bellies/ We could increase leisure hours to reduce the problem, but even if the average work week were only ten hours you've still only increased the employment rolls to 40%. The problem doesn't even go away with population reduction. Let the 60% starve to death, and all you've succeeded in doing is reducing demand by 60%, and thus reduced the size of the production lines and need for maintenance technicians, etc. by 60%, and you're right back where you started with 60% unemployment.

      Now, take the survival issue away through some sort of social safety net / social dividend and you may foster an explosion in creativity, but there's a reason for the starving artist stereotype - creative work is rarely appreciated in it's own time, and most artists and inventors have always needed to have some other kind of work to pay the bills. If there is no other work, then they need to be given at least enough to survive comfortably to free them to be creative.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by russotto · · Score: 1

      We are reaching a state in our society where there simply is not enough work for everyone to maintain a middle class livelihood. Maintaining the status of the middle class will require a radical shift where the value of jobs currently seen as low value (such as a store clerk) goes up.

      The iron law of economics -- supply and demand -- says that ain't going to happen. You can push and prod and legislate but supply and demand will always bite you in the ass one way or another.

    12. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by eclectro · · Score: 1

      There's another word for your analysis: denial.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    13. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by eclectro · · Score: 1

      Note how none if it is being done by "the invisible hand" but by actual government and industry backed efforts.

      The large number of people who continually remain long term unemployed or dropping out of the workforce (and its subsequent shrinkage) indicates that this is simply not the case i.e. there are no meaningful government or industry efforts in this area.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    14. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Americans went with the machines. The American elite hates people. In other countries people are still valued as much or even more than machines. This is why America has ceased to be a great power, and is dying. We fight our wars with high technology and a handful of elite soldiers, and we lose every war we are in, whereas we used to win all of our wars. In business, the same. Our elite goes with the machines, while the Asians go with the people, and we lose. I had the privilege to visit a Toyota factory in Japan 2 years ago, and there were no robots. It was all people. That is how they beat GM and became the largest.

    15. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by DrLang21 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ahh yes. The Neoclassical model presently being used to oppose minimum wage increases. There has been a lot of academic criticism of this model without good answer. Academics aside, it fails to account for the fact that supply and demand is driven by resource scarcity, which has largely been eliminated for basic human needs. The main scarcity still driving these factors is money. Housing, food, water, and even modern utilities are all available in abundance within the developed world. They are simply being wasted in the interest of money.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    16. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Kremmy · · Score: 1

      Better hope those armed guards are 1%.

    17. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, if we're really running out of jobs there's always healthcare. From what I've read there would be no problem employing many, many more people there but the blocker is economy. Over the next 30 years or so at least here the proportion of elderly will grow massively compared to the workforce, they're looking at all kinds of automation just to cope.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    18. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't zero sum but it isn't infinite either.

      At the beginning we had more work than we had people to do it. As productivity increased less were needed for those jobs and they managed to branch out into other fields and even created new ones.

      But for each increase, the number of new jobs created was less than the number of jobs destroyed. We have already reached the transition point where the number of jobs is lesser than the number of people and is continuing to get worse. You can't seem to see that for some reason but it is getting more and more obvious by the year and snowballing as well.

      When you have 3 jobs that need doing for every 1 person, automation helps and everyone is still better off.
      When you have 1 job for every 10 people on the other hand, even though automation could help everyone, it doesn't when the ones without work are left to suffer.

      We have reached that transition point and we either need to redo society where people don't need to work, transition it where the hours required and pay scales are adjusted where everyone has something to do still and can earn a living doing it (similar to Jetsons style where they worked like 3 days a week 4 hours a day for a decent living) or we will end up with a lot of violence from desperate people trying to survive unless you want to go the Hitler approach of kill off whole sections of society for not being able to pull their weight even though the only reason they can't is you wont allow them to. And if you choose the Hitler style, I hope you put yourself on the top of that list.

    19. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And thus the above poster, as one of the slave class, is happy for the race to the bottom.

      Until it effects them of course...but by then it will be too late.

    20. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      "Scarce" and "Free" are well defined terms within economics, and I don't know what definition you're using, but in economics, houses and food are most certainly "scarce". Scarce means that the supply is limited. There are a finite amount of houses in the world, and a greater number of people who want a house.

      Food may be in "abundance", sure, but it is still "scarce". It has a supply curve, a demand curve, and a market price where the two meet.

      The same goes for the labor market - the number of people willing to work for free is less than the number of employers who would let such people work, and therefore labor is scarce - and no economist trying to support a minimum wage has given the law of supply and demand a good answer.

    21. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by denzacar · · Score: 1

      That line is the continuation of this part:

      Only we're already beyond electronics now. It's software that's running things at this point.
      Anyone notice all those efforts to make everyone a coder? Or at least every child?
      You think that's done because coding is fun?

      I'm not talking about "creating jobs". I'm not a politician.

      I'm talking about the fact that even the W. administration WAS AWARE that education is a big part of the answer to the problem of what to do with all that workforce who's jobs are disappearing.
      They KNOW that the administration will be in the office (if all goes well) for the next eight years.
      That's both the parents, families and even all the kids ten years or older they have to think of. A lot of votes.

      Want a second term? Same thing. Only they are dealing with 14-year-olds and older.
      Did the administration in power do something to make those kids employed or unemployed by the next election?

      Mind you, doing "something" and creating a successful education program are two VERY different things.

      But the push towards making everyone a "computer guy" is pretty fucking clear.
      Slashdot is full of stories about this or that program to get kids into coding.
      Because THAT is the current and next skilled worker industry. The next assembly line - unless it all moves to India first.
      It should probably be smarter getting them into space research and robotics... but it's not my problem.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    22. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by DrLang21 · · Score: 2

      There are a finite amount of houses in the world, and a greater number of people who want a house.

      Scarcity is the economic concept that there is insufficient productive resources to meet all human wants and needs. I think we agree on that. I think your contention here is the "want" rather than the "need".

      Of course there is a finite number of houses in the world. There is a finite amount of eveything. However, according to the Cenus Bureau, as of Q4 of 2013, the rental unit vacancy rate was 8.2% and more than 300,000 homes are foreclosed and unoccupied according to RealtyTrac. That's 8.2% of rental units that would be making more money than they are now if the rent on them was $10/month and 300,000 homes that are wasted livable space. There is no real shortage of housing in terms of need. People might want bigger and better, but there is no excuse for there to not exist housing that eveyone can afford.

      There is no scarcity of food. We throw tons of it away constantly. The only thing holding us back from supplying as much food (with current production levels) as the world could ever need is a societal problem where we cannot bring ourselves to help eachother out. Current food needs are fully funded (by the people who are throwing away food). The only expense that should exist in providing food to low income families is logistics.

      The only thing stopping us from solving the human population's basic needs is greed. Our society has been taking great pride in this greed for the last several hundred years and I don't expect the problem to be solved within my lifetime. But humanity should at least admit its problem and lower its head in shame rather than taking pride in climbing on top of other people.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    23. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, less labor each time.
      This is why "Unemployment is the Cure": http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/unemployment-is-the-cure/2011/09/21

    24. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      By definition scarce means limited, and there is a limited amount of food, therefore food is scarce. The fact we throw some of it away is irrelevant - food that is thrown away is not food that most people want to consume, and so for our purposes isn't food at all. If food weren't scarce, we wouldn't have to pay money for it. Air would be an example of a good that's not scarce (unless you're, say, underwater). Certain "Free" newspapers may or may not be scarce, depending on who you are.

      A "need" is typically an informal term meaning the highest-ranked want at any given time. I eventually will "need" food, though right now I do not need food, since I just ate.

      Even in the layman's terms, "need" is generally conditional. "IF I am going to get this job, I need to do an interview" or "IF I am going to live for another year, I need to eat/get an operation/etc". So we still need to think in terms of cost/benefit, even if that benefit is extending one's life by some period of time.

      If housing prices were significantly lower, there would be a shortage - more people trying to buy than willing to sell. Observe: rent-controlled apartments. And if houses were free, most certainly I would get one... but who's taking on the cost of building it? In reality, there could not possibly be such a thing as a free house ("free" in econ terms), even low-cost or low-income housing would require paperwork, a lottery, or other non-monetary costs on my part. But they are still costs for the sake of our supply and demand curve.

      What do you mean by greed? Taking other people's things by force is never appropriate, but that is not greed, that's theft. Getting an idea for something, and taking time to acquire it, build it, or trade for it, is very much good. My "greed" for more free time combined leads me to hiring a landscaper. And so on.

    25. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Everytime the "circle" goes around LESS labor is needed.

      Just where are those workers going to go because other industries are not absorbing them - the employment numbers proves it.

      That's not true. Right now the US is in a slump so you use those short term skewed figures and blame that on whatever, but here in Australia we have relatively low unemployment (5-6%) over the at least the last 15 years. I've heard that 5% is the perfect amount of unemployment, since you always need some unemployed people around to fill demand. Unemployment might be higher for you than the 90's, but it's lower than the 80's and still lower than the 30's. So it's a bit far fetched to blame this year/decade's unemployment situation on some sort of technological trend that has been in force for centuries.

    26. Re:Oh please, Indeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that happened at least an order of magnitude more slowly than it is happening today. We no longer have the time or money in the economy to retrain everybody every time we have an efficiency increase. And the increases only get larger and more frequent. The end game of this process isn't going to be pretty, because the very few who will be left holding all the cards have absolutely zero qualms about just letting everybody else starve to death.

  18. Capitalism vs. Protectorism by burni2 · · Score: 1

    The Shares choose capitalism.

    Land of the free home of the brave. God Bless the USA.

  19. Real "Ecopnomy" or hype? by tomhath · · Score: 1

    The Wired article gives a few anecdotes but no facts. The New York Magazine article has some pretty graphs showing unemployment rates. But neither provides any insight into the scope of the "sharing economy". It appears to me more like a couple of internet start-ups hyping themselves so they'll be the next acquisitions by Facebook.

    1. Re:Real "Ecopnomy" or hype? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Blah - proofreading fail...

  20. Market theory by drolli · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A market works best if all sides have the same access to knowledge. Prior to the Internet there was no big market for "i have a room which is dont use" because exchanging information was too expensive.

    However, it was not at all unusual on the countryside to just put up a sign if you had a room to rent. I remember bicycle trips where we just stopped at some farm and asked and got a room there.

    What is new is that you can plan this.

  21. Sharing is nothing new by prefec2 · · Score: 2

    In previous decades people shared stuff a lot. They shared tools, e.g., when they build houses. They shared land. They shared knowledge. Farmers, share their equipment for a long time, as it was expensive all the time. For example, harvesters are shared even today through farmers cooperatives. The "new" share economy is, therefore, not new. The only new thing is that the sharing platform is now a company and not a joint organisation making profit out of sharing. Furthermore, consumers are now able to share their goods with people over a larger area. And true, people would have led their car in the past only to people they know of. Now they share it with people who pay for it.

    In the past sharing was a social act. Now it is a business. However, traditional sharing is also increasing. And traditional sharing requires people to like each other. Therefore, they have to build working relationships, which is definitively a step in the right direction.

    1. Re:Sharing is nothing new by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the historically-inaccurate forwarded email that blames the Jamestown famine on communal labor and property, then explains how a switch to private ownership and market capitalism saved them all.

    2. Re:Sharing is nothing new by Yosho · · Score: 1

      They shared tools, e.g., when they build houses. They shared land. They shared knowledge. Farmers, share their equipment for a long time, as it was expensive all the time.

      Except that most of those things are not personal. A hammer's just a hammer; if you loan that to somebody who loses it, you're just out whatever it costs you to buy another hammer. And knowledge? Sharing that doesn't cost you anything. Letting somebody stay in your home, though, especially when you're not there, is very personal, and most people are very hesitant about giving somebody else unfettered access to everything they have.

      And... land? Are we looking at the same history? I'd wager that more wars have been fought over who owns what land than anything else. Land is absolutely not something that people have historically been willing to share with somebody they didn't trust intimately.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    3. Re:Sharing is nothing new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading an old story about a fellow who was building a log cabin. He walked into town and borrowed a number of nails (we would call them spikes). They are used to hold things temporarily when you don't have another person to hold logs in place. He knew how many it took and walked them all back into town again when he was done.

  22. "Taking in boarders" by swb · · Score: 1

    Maybe I've just seen too many movies, but wasn't taking in boarders common at one point in the not-that-distant past? Maybe the adult male of a middle class household living in a larger house died and the family consolidated their use of rooms and let out rooms and maybe provided a meal, known now as "room and board"? Perhaps if there wasn't much left of the family it was nearly all a boarding house?

    1. Re:"Taking in boarders" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's new for people who are used to being rich. The rich have been fucked over by the super-rich, now they have to start subletting their flats. Just like normal people. The horror.

  23. perfecthackers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    has been the domain of the rich. This is because sharing was moderated by expensive middle men. If you own a castle in Britain, you are likely to regularly share some of the rooms perfecthacks/a> (short-term renting them out through an expensive agency). But it wasn't easy to rent out that extra room or your basement in your three bedroom suburban house, because there was no affordable way to efficiently access that market (the market structure was very thin for short term renting).

    Now the rest of us can partake in the sharing economy, agency costs have dropped dramatically for the stuff that the rest of us own.

  24. race to the bottom by phik · · Score: 1

    It isn't going to be pretty

  25. Failure of the economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What they are trying the hardest not to mention, is that it is a failure in the transportation economy. Medallions and regulations have opened up the market to competition and now there is an ability to compete.

    Stop with the overbearing government regulation. Hell stop with all the government regulation.

  26. they are the same thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you are desperate enough, you trust. Everyone has a tipping point.

  27. Giving The Man "The Finger" by plopez · · Score: 2

    When the game is rigged against the individual in favor of corporations, the wealthy, and banks the only sane and sensible solution is not to play.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Giving The Man "The Finger" by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Exactly it. They're building another system outside of the current system because the current system is rigged. This type of activity is scaring the shit out of the elites, and they're cracking down on it. For "safety reasons," of course.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  28. Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is an growth necessary? To sustain our current economic models perhaps, but they are themselves a very recent anomaly dating back to somewhere around the beginning of the industrial revolution and the liberation of productivity from the number of laborers available. As you point out, all sustained growth is exponential, and that is unsustainable in a finite environment. And we're already bumping up against the limits of our global ecosystem so it must end relatively soon.

    No matter what the economists want to believe, sustainable growth is an oxymoron and we're going to be forced to return to an economic model which presumes the entirety of production remains relatively stable. Individual businesses may still grow, but only at the expense of other businesses (competitors and/or those rendered obsolete) But there's no particular reason they need to grow at all. Even today there are plenty of small businesses that don't subscribe to the "grow or die" philosophy, and have instead simply grown until they reach a comfortable, sustainable size and then remain there indefinitely. And that's absolutely normal. In days gone past a master blacksmith could only grow his business to the limits of his own productivity - he might take on an apprentice or two to help out with the easier stuff, but it was his own skill at the forge that drove business.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    1. Re:Growth is not necessity by mlts · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The modern shareholder item where a company must grow no matter what... and if a company is well established, but not gaining new market, it is considered a hot potato and has to be dropped... This is a self-destructive philosophy seems to be fairly recent.

      I think part of the reason why Dell went private is exactly this. The desktop/server/workstation market is not growing by leaps and bounds. Is it still lucrative? By far. Companies amortize their computers every 3-5 years on taxes, Moore's law allows more functionality in the same server and workstation space, and new real estate to expand server rooms is a lot more expensive than replacing existing servers for more bang/cubic centimeter. However, is it growing by leaps and bounds? Not really.

      Another big issue is that companies that are stable end up getting bought out by others that have the "growth focus". This means that a product made by a firm for 20 years and is tried and true gets replaced by something cheap and shoddy because there is no stake in that one little niche anymore, so the larger firm can cut corners there without risking the stock value all around.

      I've seen this happen fairly often in the RV industry. A small firm that has some useful widget gets bought out by a larger, "growing" company, and next thing you know, the well-made, made in USA item that was made to last a lifetime now is made overseas [1] out of a cheaper metal and manufacturing process... or is turned to craptastic plastic fresh out of an injection mold. Of course, the price doesn't go down. Yes, the larger company expanded and seized a narrow market. However, other than that one company, nobody else is benefiting from this.

      As described above, exponential growth isn't sustainable. What does a firm do when they reach market saturation? Get bought up by a bigger firm that is "growing"? The result of this are a few companies owning a lot of market niches.

      Finally, when a recession hits, the focus on growth can turn so-so times into a death spiral. A company may not be expanding in a sour economy... but it can be holding its own. However, with the growth mentality, no new market additions can push stock values down, causing that company to collapse. The car industry comes to mind here, because the first thing that happens in a recession is that people stop buying new cars, so automakers get hit hard in the stock market when this happens.

      [1]: I don't want to bash China on this one. Generally, they try to make stuff to spec, and if a company specs "cheap junk", they will deliver "cheap junk". If a company specs high quality and foots the bill for the better materials/fit/finish/manufacturing processes, it will come off the ship that way.

    2. Re:Growth is not necessity by citizenr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why is an growth necessary?

      Because it is essential to making money out of NOTHING. Growth is the mechanism letting people "work with their money", people that never work, just invest and reap the benefits.
        Of course most of same people that rely on growth will be as pleased with recession. They can speculate with their money as long as there is instability, there is always opportunity to extract money from the working class.

      If you work with your hands/brain you dont need growth to sustain your lifestyle, you need stability. They (startup valley types) even call it a Lifestyle Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... and treat it like something lesser/to be ashamed of.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    3. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1, Redundant

      An excellent point, I hadn't really considered the investment angle, but I think you're right. Perhaps that's a good reason to consider moving heavily back toward dividend-paying stocks. If the value of the stock is purely in how fast its value is increasing then obviously the shareholders will pressure the company to steadily grow, probably to the long-term detriment of both the company and the larger market. If however you could typically get an N% per year return in dividends while the stock value remains relatively constant, then holding the stock is far more in line with the original vision of distributed ownership of the company.

      [1] an excellent point, with one caveat: as the production quality improves in a modern heavily-automated factory the cost of labor tends to become an ever-smaller factor in the overall manufacturing cost. Since China's primary advantage is low labor costs they thus have an incentive to focus their production capacity on the quality range in which their advantage is most profitable - to wit the lower end of the market. As such I imagine the number of Chinese factories capable of creating cheap junk is far greater than the number capable of creating top-quality merchandise.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re:Growth is not necessity by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Why is an growth necessary?

      The Sun is getting brighter as it ages, and will fry the entire biosphere in a couple hundred million years. And that's discounting all the asteroids, supervolcanoes, diseases, gamma-ray bursts, etc. that come around every now and then.

      "Space is a tough place where wimps eat flaming plasma death" - crude, but true.

      There's also the positive side: growth and change open new doors of possibility, such as this discussion taking place between multiple people in different continents. So the choice comes down to "prosper or die", and most people seem to take "prosper" being the more desirable outcome as granted.

      To sustain our current economic models perhaps, but they are themselves a very recent anomaly dating back to somewhere around the beginning of the industrial revolution and the liberation of productivity from the number of laborers available.

      Nope, the trend goes back to the beginning. Complexity has been increasing since Big Bang. It's the occasional dib in the trend that's the anomalous setback, and they don't last.

      No matter what the economists want to believe, sustainable growth is an oxymoron and we're going to be forced to return to an economic model which presumes the entirety of production remains relatively stable.

      We've never in our history, prehistory or pre-human existence had that, so we can't "return" to it. Every single society is in a race to reach the next treshold before the resources in the previous one give out. Every species is, for that matter. I don't think a steady state is possible in our universe; even the ant colonies must evolve or die in the long term, since Sun isn't eternal.

      But there's no particular reason they need to grow at all. Even today there are plenty of small businesses that don't subscribe to the "grow or die" philosophy, and have instead simply grown until they reach a comfortable, sustainable size and then remain there indefinitely.

      And then they get eaten by the next Wal-Mart. Or maybe they can take a book from MAFIAAs page to fight technological change. Either way, they either invest in developing their business - which doesn't necessarily mean growing in size, of course - or become obsolete.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1

      You don't need growth for investment - if your stock paid a 10% dividend without increasing value then that would give you exactly the same financial return as a stock with no dividend but 10% growth. It just means that you then need to decide how to invest that dividend instead of just holding on to the stock.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Complexity has been increasing, yes. But not productivity. Productivity has been dropping since the end of the inflationary period, from that point forward matter and energy were fixed, and productivity limited by the ever-decreasing amount of enthalpy available to fuel it.

      And no, the vast majority of human history has been people just getting by, with their great-great-great-grandchildren inheriting a world virtually identical to their own. Keep in mind that humanity has existed in essentially it's current state (biologically speaking) for somewhere around 50-100,000 years, and it's only in the last few thousand years that technology has begun to advance at an appreciable pace.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    7. Re:Growth is not necessity by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      When growth finally stops- we are going to have one mother of a depression. Maybe close to a decade. When this has occurred previously, we've had major wars, revolutions, and civil unrest.

      Because we've fought so hard to prevent any kind of slow down at all since 2000- the slowdown is likely to be worse than average when it does occur.

      Ultimately- unlimited growth leads to heat death for the planet- currently projected to be a few hundred to five hundred years out.

      So there isn't really a good way out in either direction.

      A hard period is going to occur. The question is when- and can we mitigate it or are things going to get really ugly for a generation.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    8. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I'm inclined to agree. Unfortunately it seems that those in a position to potentially mitigate the eventual crash are instead focusing on milking the system for everything it's worth in the meantime. Perhaps they are only greedy and shortsighted. I'm sure many of them are, but if they're smart then they have a plan in place to leverage the fact that they control the vast majority of real wealth (land, natural resources, etc) to maintain a position of wealth and expand their social power immensely in the aftermath of the crash. After all a starving and powerless populace will accept some quite serious indignities to put food in their belly. This is in fact the only rational reason I can think of for modern anti-gun rhetoric in the US, where mass shootings with handguns are being used as an excuse to try to ban private ownership of assault weapons - If the population is effectively armed then the crash will likely go badly for the "haves".

      But heat death? Really? I've never heard such a thing. Heat death = no more heat, which is patently impossible so long as the sun keeps bombarding us with petajoules of new energy every day. Or are you referring to extreme global warming to the point of reaching a Venus scenario? I'd rank that as extremely unlikely if only because the environmental collapse from more limited global warming will make business as usual impossible long before we pump that much CO2 into the atmosphere.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re:Growth is not necessity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I definitely agree here. A share is just a piece of paper (well, electronic paper) which makes no money unless you either sell it at a higher price (speculation) or receive a dividend. Otherwise, you're just holding on to it in the hopes of one day getting a dividend or a buyout.

      For a lot of tech companies, the P/E ratio would require a staggering amount of growth to make dividend income worth it unless you got in early.

    10. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I would venture the opinion that a lot of tech company stock is massively overvalued for exactly this reason. Stock today is bought as a means of low-risk gambling (you can usually cash out for most of what you bought in at) on future valuation, rather than as a considered investment in a company with expected return in a percentage of profits. Facebook, Amazon, et al. are valued in the billions, despite having only much more moderate physical holdings and never having turned a profit. How much of that valuation do you suppose is due to well-informed investors expecting to get a long-term return when they eventually figure out how to make money, and how much do you suppose is gamblers hoping that other gamblers will bet even bigger tomorrow? That's no way to run a healthy economy.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:Growth is not necessity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China does not make stuff to spec. They will for the first batch, but no matter how much you pay, unless you watch your manufacturer like a hawk, they will figure out how to shave costs all the time. A little here, a little there, a cheaper version of some chip, a short cut in manufacturing that results in a less durable product, all without telling you. Pretty soon, you've got a junk product at a premium price. Plus, everyone else has the same, because they sell product based on your design to everyone else on the quiet.

      I deal with Chinese manufacturing. I know how it works.

    12. Re:Growth is not necessity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      growth in production is not just more bushels of corn.

      Writing software counts as productivity growth while consuming a vanishingly small amount of resources.

    13. Re:Growth is not necessity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a company specs high quality and foots the bill for the better materials/fit/finish/manufacturing processes, it will come off the ship that way.

      You might want to ask the San Francisco Bay Bridge about that.

      AC

    14. Re:Growth is not necessity by FirephoxRising · · Score: 1

      Reversing accidental moderation.

    15. Re:Growth is not necessity by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      And here is the longer version of scarcity+productivity, thanks Immerman!

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    16. Re:Growth is not necessity by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Well a couple points.

      The military can kill you from miles away, in complete darkness, while you are inside a building.

      So ak-47's are quaint but are more dangerous to the civilian population than they are to the government.

      Don't get me wrong- I agree that the 2nd amendment was originally there to protect us from the government becoming tyrannical and not to allow citizens to hunt. Civilians can't afford military ordinance and weapon power is asymmetrical these days. It will get much more unbalanced as robotic warriors (which will follow any given orders and won't have a problem mowing down civilians like human soldiers tend to have) come into wide spread use.

      For heat death tho- think the other direction. I can't remember the exact figures but essentially since the early 1600's the energy per human has been rising by a little over 1% per year. If that trend continues, the temperature of the surface of the planet will pass the boiling point of water within 380 years.

      It doesn't matter if the energy is from fusion, or solar satellites, etc. The total amount of energy being added to the system can only radiate out into space so fast. This is independent of the global warming issue and is just simple math.

      So ultimately- that means humans are going to hit a hard limit on the amount of energy they can use long before 380 years from now. Which probably means a lower standard of living or at least a limit to improvements to the standard of living.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    17. Re:Growth is not necessity by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I hadn't thought if those terms of global heating before, I question your numbers though - unless you're assuming we stick with fossil fuels. Global average power consumption during 2008 was 15TW - impressive, roughly a third of what the Earth's core is estimated to generate (And a good reason to avoid considering geothermal as a long-term energy source), but only 0.008% of the 180PW of solar radiation the planet receives. Assuming 1%/year growth in 300 years that number will be 20x larger, or about 300TW, or 0.16% - possibly enough to start worrying about, but nothing compared to the problem of CO2:

      A rough estimate puts the energy captured by a unit of CO2 at ~1 million times the amount of energy co-produced by the source fuel, spread over the ~100 years it takes for the CO2 to be scrubbed from the atmosphere. So for every single watt-hour of fossil-fuel based energy we generate, we're actually indirectly heating the planet by 1 MWh. Eliminate carbon-based energy production and we could increase our energy consumption at 1% for ~1400 yeas just to get back to the amount of heat we're pumping into the ecosystem today.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  29. An economy is an economy. by briancox2 · · Score: 2

    "what compels people to open up their homes and cars to complete strangers is money, not trust."

    That's interesting. Could the exact same thing be said about the banking industry? And the insurance industry? And stock brokerages? ... and ...

    The fact that New York magazine smears the sharing economy with the word "desperation" just speaks of editoralizing that tries to use controversial words to grab attention. Without the prestige of slick magazine paper, we would just call that activity "trolling".

    --
    We should learn what we need to know about issues, before we decide what we need to feel about them.
    1. Re:An economy is an economy. by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

      The fact that New York magazine smears the sharing economy with the word "desperation" just speaks of editoralizing...

      Really? Are you sure they're editorializing here rather than simply giving a truthful description of the people who actually use this service to rent their facilities?

      I would guess that people are using sites like AirBnB to rent their rooms or cars out of either a need or desire for money rather than as an altruistic gesture to give weary travelers discounted rates on their travels. You're probably correct that this service allows people with extra rooms to monetize them and that, if the person doing this does not need the extra money, then this activity is not desperation-based. But I would also assume that this is a relatively small percentage of the group using these services. Lyft, Uber, other vehicle rental services, and the lower-end of internet temp-housing rental services are driven by a real need for money in most cases - and, when you don't have it, money is a desperate need in this country.

      --
      That is all.
  30. Need motivates Fear inhibits Trust mitigates fear by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

    Trust can never be the primary motivator; there is no intrinsic value to trust. Trust reduces the perceived risk; decisions influence by trust can result in better or worse outcome--depending on who we trust.

    The inhibitor is emotionally fear, or rationally an expectation that doing something gives another person an opportunity to take action against me. Emotionaly, trust removes that inhibitor--or, again in a rational sense I know another person (or community, or machine) well enough that I can predict the behavior--and predict the person/people/machine or whatever will NOT take some action which will hurt me.

    In order to replace a sensor I need to climb inside of a machine which can easily crush me. Where do I hang my lock? Do I trust that mechanical blocking device? Do I trust that software-based safety lockout system? The fact that I have a heavy steel blocking device that very reliably protects me from injury doesn't motivate me to go inside the machine.
    I have very high trust I will not be injured if I go in the machine, but if I don't need to replace the sensor (or have some other business in there); I'm not going to do it.

    The bleak tone of the headline suggests that not finding trust as a primary motivator implies that trust isn't present in the commons. If you look for trust as a primary motive, you wont' find it because that's not where trust lives. The conclusion that trust is not present or not important is an artifact of the observer's method--not a property of the commons.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  31. Re:Deflation by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

    Deflation is no poison, you are a tool of government propaganda, brainwashed to the core, completely without any sense or understanding. Deflation was the reality of 19th century USA economy, the period of time, when the standard of living of an average American has gone up by orders of magnitude faster than at any point in time. In fact during the 'scary deflationary' period the standard of living for Americans has gone up, but during the government induced inflation the standard of living was and is falling.

    You are absolutely correct, but your opinion seems very unpopular here on /.

    Deflation is only bad for those with money, and especially for entities like the Federal Reserve and the stock markets, that rely on ever-decreasing value of the dollar to demonstrate an ever-increasing value of assets by comparison. It's bad for the US Federal government, too, that relies on the sale of bonds to finance its deficit spending, and of course inflation produces increasing tax revenue, necessary for the increasing budgets and unchecked increases in demand for promised entitlements like Social Security and Medicare.

    Inflation, in fact, is a massive and unfair tax that falls disproportionately on the poor. That's because inflation least affects the people that get to use the inflated money first, the poor that are at the bottom of food chain don't see money until inflation has devalued it the most. It's the way new money enters the economy: Federal Reserve -> Large Banks -> smaller banks and businesses -> small businesses -> home owners and middle class -> Check cashers and payday lenders. The interest payments required go up at each level.

    tl;dr: Inflation helps the rich, deflation helps the poor.

    --
    "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
    --- Jerry Garcia
  32. Too pessimistic by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    Qualitative Easing is successfully resolving the debt burdens of the countries that have indulged in it, though noone is admitting the fact. The real issue is whether, as Keynes argues, the savings of those who don't want to spend them, can be successfully recycled to the poor, who do want to spend them, but aren't being paid enough to keep demand up. This is brought to a crisis in China where the poor's saving rates are very high because they need to protect themselves in the absence of a meaningful welfare net and their dependence therefore on their ONE child for their future prosperity. If China can break out of this pattern, there is hope for at least one more iteration. But overall don't forget that the poorest in the world ARE getting richer - it's only the Westerners who are getting squeezed.

  33. Old people can't do physical labor by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and there's still a lot of that. Farming, plumbing, construction, machine work, etc.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by Immerman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Farming has been automated. Construction is being automated. Machine work has been automated for a long time, except for specialty one-of stuff - when's the last time you had something custom made at the local machine shop? And even the one-of stuff is being largely automated by CNC and other rapid-prototyping technologies.

      Plumbing, yeah, that's still mostly done by hand, as is electrical work. Maintenance of existing products (houses in this case) is still mostly beyond automation capabilities, but how many hours worth of combined plumbers, electricians, home renovators, auto mechanics, etc. do you suppose you employ in an average year?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Farming has been automated, and this automation represents economics of scale, increased economic efficiency, however it leaves a ton of people urbanized, in need of a job, and buying this automated farm food on government aid. In a society where the government owns a lot of robots and productivity, and everyone, regardless of their economic status, gets a welfare check from the gov't to buy what the robots produce, and they can get a job on top of that to supplement this income, such automated farming is acceptable. However "designed by a steering committee", "gov't run enterprise" is hopelessly inefficient compared to private enterprise, as history has proven over and over, so the means of productivity including the robots will be privately owned, and then the private owner cannot be forced to send out welfare checks to the rest of the population so they get money to actually buy what he makes. There is this idea from Jefferson that a democracy's backbone is truly the yeoman farmer, because he's free from the corrupting influences of the city, where, somebody has to give him a job to feed himself, and nobody is forced to give anybody else a job, we can't just run to you for instance, and say here's this guy off the street and you must employ him - he'll comb your hair, cut your nails, clean your house, etc. You are like I like to do those things myself. You should say the same thing about growing your own food, that you like to do that too yourself, it's like almost a right to be self sufficient and secure first, and only participate in the economy with the excesses that you're able to produce. If you're self sufficient, you have enough food, clothing and shelter to make it through the year, without bills like utility, insurance, mortgage, high property taxes, then you don't give a flying feck about whether the economy is up or down, now it's up again, now it's down again, now we have a dragged out down we call recession or depression, you don't care because it doesn't affect you. If you have no bills to pay other than some minor property tax, make your own food, clothing, and shelter, you can go for years and decades without a job and still be happy. In fact that's how the caveman used to live, he took care of himself and paid no taxes to anyone, and still made it. The small tax is necessary for defense purposes, as the caveman had to conduct his own defense, but in today's world you can't fight UAV's by say, communist China with caveman axes. Taxes are very necessary for defense purposes, in fact that's pretty much the only thing Jefferson erred at, at having a too low a military budget , as the war of 1812 proved it. Education, social security, healthcare, etc, a bulk of that tax money could be eliminated and handled by the private enterprise alone. Well except social security for the elderly. Back in the old days we used to have company issued retirement benefits, assuming the company would still be in business when you retire, but cases like employment by LTV Steel, and by the City of Detroit shows that the retirement contracts cannot be relied on, for various reasons, because they cannot by the corporations issuing it, I just watched a video with Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, and they say we spend all these billions and billions on defense, when we could be spiritual and strive to live in peace. Yes, we should try by all means to live in peace, but we shouldn't be naive and assume nobody is gonna run us over if we completely eliminate our military budget.

    3. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In terms of farming, absolutely. By optimizing away the common man's ability to be self-sufficient we've fundamentally altered the nature of the "game".

      As for military spending, sure we need a certain level to keep the barbarians from our gates. Though outspending the next 20+ nations combined is probably overkill. But that's getting off topic.

      As for taxes, there's lots of other ways taxes can be good for everyone. Roads for example. Dirt ruts can only carry you so far, and toll roads are unlikely to be cost effective. Free paved roads allow the farmer to get his produce to market in a timely fashion instead of having 80% of it rot along the way. Other infrastructure can operate similarly - so long as a 10% increase in taxes provides for infrastructure that increases your profitability by 20% almost everyone wins. Similarly with cleanup and policing (which could both be be conceived of as defense against the carelessness or maliciousness of your neighbors). Then there's things like medicine and eduction, which done wisely can be immensely profitable for all involved when socialized at a basic level. The costs of basic services are minimal when spread across the population, and most everyone benefits from both the direct education and the resulting facilitation of the poor-but-brilliant child being able to get a good start towards becoming an engine of societal advancement. Life-extension medicine is it's own thing, there's unlikely to be any great benefit to society from keeping an octogenarian or permanent invalid alive for an extra cuple couple decades, though one could debate as to whether the occasional Steven Hawking is worth the cost. Fixing broken bones and curing infectious diseases though - that's cheap, and everyone benefits, even if they never personally have cause to partake, since it's increasing the percentage of able-bodied individuals in your society (= decreasing freeloaders), and helping to avoid plagues.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re: Old people can't do physical labor by peragrin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You lost me when you said government run programs ate inwffecient compared to private enterprise. While that is true in some cases that isn't always true. Medicare for example is 10 times more efficient dollar for dollar to private insurance. Most private insurance spends 20% ( now it used to be higher) on adminstration. Medicare is 2-3%.

      Just remember when the big three auto makers went looking for a bailout they flew to Washington in their corporate jets. If they were truely efficient they wouldn't need a politician to point out the stupidly obvious waste of funds. How inefficient does a private enterprise have to be if a politician notices their failures.

          Once you get to be a big business efficieny goes out the door. Governments are just big business with mediocore oversight However more people can see the books. If you really looked at a large businesses books you wouldn't say that private business is more efficient. The rest of your post rambles on from that misconception.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    5. Re: Old people can't do physical labor by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the broken by design stuff that is put in place to convince people something is unworkable.

    6. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, the nobility of subsistence farming co-existing with industrial productivity. I personally love community supported agriculture (CSAs) and the produce they provide, but I do not think we can count on a 7-9B person planet existing on this track for long. And Game of Thrones level existence is way post-collapse, if we continue to rely on paleofuels to power our farms (fertilizers, planting, reaping, delivery to market), how much of that can be converted to alcohol and nuclear?

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    7. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      There is the concept of privatized roads, but I personally try to avoid all toll roads and sometimes even highways unless I'm in a hurry, and instead I take a road trip and spectate the countryside, how people live, etc. You can learn a lot more about the state of the economy from a road trip than reading the news. I find the toll booths a nuisance, and I can see how toll road pricing could turn into a blackmailing situation, especially if there are no free alternatives. On the other hand I see lots and lots of road construction, and wonder whether it's wasting tax money, and politicians giving kickbacks to old friends, special contracts, at the expense of everyone else. The speed with which potholes develop is extreme, and I wonder if there were a better road that lasted longer. Private roads would find a better economic optimum, but they could blackmail the population for access. There are two sides to everything, the good side, and the bad side.

    8. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by whitroth · · Score: 1

      Please define "old people". Please define "physical labor".

      And please define it in the context of Pete Seeger, a couple of years ago, at 93, splitting his own firewood. Or me, in my sixties, changing my own oil under the vehicle (I know, you don't know *how* to change your oil....)

                      mark

    9. Re:Old people can't do physical labor by grunthos · · Score: 1

      Even repair is greatly affected by automation, whether cars, appliances, or whatever.

      Stories abound about how today's repairmen don't understand the things they work on nearly as well as the prior generation. Today's products are fundamentally more complicated than those of our parents' generation, and include many more (automated) mass-produced opaque components. So a great amount of today's repairs are much less diagnosis of fundamental causes, and much more simple parts (or large subassembly) swapping.

      OBD-II in cars is a dual-edged sword. The technician doesn't need to know nearly as much about the details of any given circuit or mechanism; the car tells you it's bad so you replace it. The technician *can't* know nearly as much about the details of any given circuit or mechanism-- not enough details from the manufacturer, and not enough hours in the week to keep up with every new electronic component or subsystem.

      --

      My son's 5th grade teacher actually assigned them "write a limerick about a planet". I'm not kidding.
    10. Re: Old people can't do physical labor by Methadras · · Score: 1

      Efficiency of government programs compared to private industry is a canard. It isn't efficiency that is at stake here. It's expense. Fine, Medicare is efficient, so what? But look at how expensive it is to administer. That's where the real metric is. Efficiency does not equate to less expensive. If you want something to be large, inefficient, wasteful, expansive, and expensive, then yes, let government create and run it.

  34. Wealth of Nations in the making by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is Marxist Socialist and Communist MOONBEAMS in the California will soon make it illegal...

  35. Inflation and Deflation aren't opposites. by Qbertino · · Score: 2

    Right now, the big scare is that we're running into a deflation. No, really. DEflation. Not INflation. Now, considering how bad inflation is (allegedly), deflation must be good, right? Wrong! It's even more feared than inflation.

    Inflation and deflation are orthogonal to each other. Inflation is a devaluation/flat tax on money while deflation is a devaluation of goods & services that can be bought with money. You can have both at the same time, they are not opposites, but two entirely seperate matrixes which are, at most and only under certain circumstances and certain moments, indirectly linked to each other. Right now we're observing a bit of a mixture of both.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  36. Pretty much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For those that haven't read the Communist Manifesto, Marx marveled at aspects of capitalism to create wonders, he mostly objected to the workers being treated like cogs and the bourgeoisie taking all of the benefits from the proletariat. It's definitely possible to have capitalism where the workers own the means of production, it just turns out that that's bad for the people in power.

  37. And the food deliveries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Even with guards the ammunition, food and other supplies have to reach the compound and even armed guards aren't always enough to stop an angry mob.

    There's already rich folks that are building their own compounds because they know damn well that at some point things are going to turn ugly, but rather than do something productive like stop stealing from the workers, they're hoping that a secured compound will save them. The workers in the US ask so very little, providing a living wage is hardly unreasonable.

  38. Living wages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of those jobs are hiring because they don't pay a living wage. They might pay enough that you can have an apartment and some food, but they won't ensure that you have anything like a retirement account or funds set aside for emergencies.

    The problem isn't that people might need to take these jobs in the short term, the problem is that there's a decreasing number of jobs to move up to. It used to be that companies would give out raises to at least keep up with the cost of living, but these days, the only way you get a raise is by taking your skills elsewhere and hopefully there is someplace else to take them. Otherwise, you wind up working a job for 30 years and still be making the same amount of money you were when you started due to inflation eating up the meager raises you might have been getting along the way.

  39. Its not despiration its options by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    In the past, the logistics of renting your car out or your apartment out was not practical. How and where to list? The mechanism simply didn't exist unless you were offering it to a friend of a friend and then actually getting paid might be an issue.

    Now people have the option. that is what changed.

    if the economy improves radically tomorrow you'll still see this stuff.

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  40. Growth is necessary by kumanopuusan · · Score: 1

    It depends on whether you agree with Malthus that population growth is inevitable or with Condorcet, who believed that birth control could prevent the consequences of exponential population growth.

    If the population continues to grow, so too must the economy, or the share of resources available to each person will shrink. There's really no room for argument on that point.

    --
    Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    1. Re:Growth is necessary by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Population growth is likewise unsustainable in a finite world. Even if we get of the planet, if the population continues to grow exponentially we'd completely fill the solar system in only a few more centuries, and interstellar colonization is unlikely to ever be a viable option for relieving population pressure. Even if we had a Stargate with a steady stream of people running through it at top speed, we still couldn't keep up with the birth rate.

      But that ignores that steady-state populations have already been proven viable in remote island populations all through history, and most developed nations on the planet are already seeing negative native population growth. It's only the developing world where infant mortality is high and birth control almost non-existent that the population is still growing.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  41. What about taxes and legislation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Legislation can cancel debts, and taxes can prevent people from hoarding cash. Those certainly wouldn't be ideal circumstances, but it seems that would counter deflationary pressures.

  42. Communism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You're describing one half of communism. The other half is that people are assigned jobs that they are good at doing in exchange for receiving all those "needs" from a distribution source.

  43. Self-afirming statement by matbury · · Score: 1

    The article seems to read, "Website services that are designed to make money attract people who want to make money." They're no more part of a "sharing economy" than Amazon or eBay or any similar enterprise. If anything, they're more about bringing down oversight, regulation, and stability.

    Genuine sharing economies are small enough in scale so that people know each other personally and know their reputations/personalities (or at least can ask around among the people they already know and trust). They're co-operative, non-profit enterprises; everyone shares in the gains and everyone benfits from helping each other. Instead of going through corporate banking systems, they use barter, cash, and/or local credit unions. The concept is as old as civilisation itself and it just doesn't "scale" or operate in the way that for profit, venture captial backed startups would like.

  44. Human problems remain unchanged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problems we are facing are the same we've been facing forever - humans are greedy, violent assholes when given the opportunity. The only thing that's changed are the methods we use.

  45. This article brought to you by... by JBMcB · · Score: 1

    This article brought to you by the taxi cab and hotel industries.

    Remember, competing with established business interests is for losers.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
  46. Does whatever a SPDR can by tepples · · Score: 1

    It just means that you then need to decide how to invest that dividend instead of just holding on to the stock.

    Which isn't difficult: use the dividend to buy more shares in the same company or in some ETF like SPY or DIA.

  47. Re:Oh please, Indeed by rmdashrf · · Score: 1

    Only if there is a demand for more production and only if the workers have the correct skill to produce that production. When labour is off-shored, demand for products actually drops, since workers will have less money to spend; it's a downward spiral that can only be broken if there is free travel for people across nation states.

    Corporations don't have the artifical boundary not being able to operate outside their inital borders, but are capable to set up shop anywhere. Real people, on the other hand, are bound by artificial impediments like work visas and are unable to do the same.

    --
    Nihil in publicum sputa.
  48. relationships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is a site for geeks - are you out of your mind?

  49. Marx got it wrong, Adam Smith got it right by marcgvky · · Score: 1

    Marxism teeters upon a deeply false assumption that human nature can somehow be coerced into submission and tamed.... mostly by pointing a gun at the persons head or the threat of being sent to a prison... Any rationality of any government or economic system can be measured by the amount of coercion required to maintain that system. More coercion, less legitimate.

  50. So where are the video game jobs? by tepples · · Score: 1

    There are parts of the US that have VERY cheap real estate and they're not terrible places to live either.

    They're terrible for people who are trained for an industry that's next to nonexistent in such places. For example, one Slashdot user keeps telling me that anybody in the U.S. who wants to get into the video game industry is going to need to move to one of a handful of cities, most of which have a fairly high cost of living. Is Austin, Texas, really the only U.S. city with both reasonable COL and a video game industry?

    1. Re:So where are the video game jobs? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Most people don't work in the video game industry.

      If that's your dream, then by all means go after it.

      I am not suggesting that everyone can get away from them.

      But most people have a more flexible careers that allow them to work in more then a handful of cities on the planet.

      If you can... why stay? For the Opera you don't go to? For the theater that is mostly for tourists? For the sports games with $20,000 a year season tickets?

      Most people that live in such cities rarely leave more then a small portion of the city. It isn't practical to travel far in the cities because the traffic is so bad. So you live and try to work in a 5 square mile area in what could be a 200 square mile city.

      Opportunities? Sure. There's also competition.

      In most smaller communities you can find all the same industries writ small and there won't be as many people nipping after your job there. You also get the community... you know who people are and they know you.

      You also get other things like a backyard... a garden... your dog isn't cramped in some tiny apartment... and nature is something you can enjoy without having to deal with throngs of homeless people scurrying out of bushes which is what you'll find in an urban park anywhere in the US.

      For the record, the reason for that is that we closed the insane asylums some time ago and the result has been that our crazy people just became homeless people. There's not a lot you can do for them. Most of them are addicted to one substance or another and are generally pretty hopeless. The best we could do is put them in institutions... but as I said that was made illegal. Long story short, you go to the park and its full of bag ladies talking to themselves. Not exactly fun.

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    2. Re:So where are the video game jobs? by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Additionally, I'd point out that there are a lot of indi games coming out that are launched by ONE guy. As such, you could do that anywhere in the world. They're published by steam... so its not like you need to work real hard to get a publisher.

      It should also be noted that there is a chicken and egg situation with industries that cluster around some cities. Many of those businesses set up in those towns because there were existing businesses of that type and they thought they'd have easier access to labor.

      Travel around a bit... you'll find there is a significant amount of diversity in the businesses around the country.

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    3. Re:So where are the video game jobs? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Most people don't work in the video game industry.

      "Most people" don't work in any single industry. For example, "most people" don't work in the restaurant industry. Nor is the video game industry the only industry that's concentrated in small areas of the United States.

      In most smaller communities you can find all the same industries writ small

      By "smaller" do you include cities of about 200,000 people such as my home town?

  51. Low-doc loans and 40% down payment by tepples · · Score: 1

    Self-employed people often have to take special low-documentation (or "low-doc") loans. The article you linked states that in at least one jurisdiction, "Mortgage insurance is payable if the loan-to-value ratio [...] is above 80%, or above 60% for low document loans." This means low-doc borrowers need to pay 40% down to avoid having to pay for extra mortgage insurance, unlike W-2 employees who can borrow up to 80% of principal (that is, 20% down). If you think the article you linked lacks citations, feel free to edit it and sprinkle {{cn}}.

  52. IMO, the "sustained growth" model .... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    is only being promoted in the U.S. today because of our monetary policies (Federal Reserve).

    Why would companies feel pressure to keep growing exponentially, if it weren't for the value of the dollar dropping year after year, as we put more into circulation to pay down government debts?

    When you look at charts showing the buying power for a typical American worker from, say, 1900 to the present? It's clear that at best, folks are simply treading water with the raises they've received over the last 20 or 30 years. Business who want to show continuous increases in stock value have to expand at exponential rates to keep that going -- and heck yeah, it's not sustainable.

    To the point of the original topic here? No, I think "desperation" isn't the right word to describe the situation (but it sure does command more attention and therefore readers of the editorial). I *do* think money is what compels people to open up their cars, homes, etc. to complete strangers -- but that's as old as money itself! Services like Uber may have come about because people aspired to do more than receive some relatively crummy paycheck working full-time for an employer. But they're only successful because they address real needs that the "status quo" wasn't addressing adequately. Everyone I know in the D.C. area prefers Uber to calling a traditional cab. Why? Because it's just a better experience. If I call a cab, I don't have a way to track the cab in real time on a map, to see how long it will take to arrive. I don't get a convenient emailed statement as soon as my ride is over, detailing how far I went, where I started and stopped, etc. And like the last time I used Uber, I was able to call an SUV specifically, so we could load up a bunch of boxes in the back without any issues. Uber also regularly offers discount promotions. When's the last time you got a discounted cab fare promotion in your email?

  53. Deflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm having issues with "Deflation is relatively easy to deal with...".

    Deflation was a very destructive problem during the Great Depression. Money became increasingly valuable and goods ever less valuable. Now combine that with the psychology of a depression (roughly, 'keep a tight grip on your wallet!') and the widespread reality of unemployment and low paying jobs. There was nothing "easy" about it.

    Large-scale government spending on infrastructure helped a lot. The gradual easing of the drought and better farming practices helped a lot. Ultimately however, it took a world war and huge spending on war programs to really break the hold of the Depression and deflation.

    That's not my idea of "easy". More like "painful" and "not to be voluntarily repeated."

    1. Re:Deflation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any claim that "deflation is destructive" should also come with a suggested alternative which is less destructive. As it stands right now, centralized inflation just worsens the wealth gap by giving more power to the 1% already in charge.

  54. TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

    there are a lot of indi games coming out that are launched by ONE guy. [...] They're published by steam

    For mouse-and-keyboard genres, that's fine. And for games in genres that use multiple gamepads and one monitor, that will become practical once Steam Machines become widely available. Until then, does Valve publish stats on how many Steam users use the Big Picture mode? Last time I checked (18 months ago) it was about 1%. So games in multiple-gamepad genres, such as fighting games, party games, and cooperative platformers, tend to be developed for consoles. And to release a game on a console, I would need to become a licensed developer with SCEA or NOA. Or are there statistics showing that a substantial number of people connect a PC to a TV?

    For mobile devices, if a game is point-and-click like Bejeweled or Fruit Ninja or one-button like Canabalt or Flappy Bird, anyone with a computer can get started on Google Play for about $300 to buy a device and a lifetime developer certificate. But for games in genres that heavily use directional control, a touch screen alone isn't going to do very well. I tried playing the trial version of Pixeline and the Jungle Treasure on my Nexus 7, and I kept missing the jumps because my thumb kept drifting to the side of the on-screen jump button. I tried again with a keyboard and it was fine, but I imagine that few Android gamers are going to want to buy and carry a keyboard around to get the same experience that they already get with a major dedicated handheld game system. I haven't been able to find sales figures for the Bluetooth gamepads that clip onto Android phones. It appears that in order to release a game in a genre associated with directional controls, I would need to become a licensed developer with SCEA or NOA.

    As such, you could do that anywhere in the world.

    I mention cities like Austin, Boston, and Seattle because the U.S. video game industry appears to be concentrated in those cities, and I've been told that the best way to demonstrate "relevant video game industry experience" to console makers in an application to become a licensed developer is to have worked for an established video game studio for several years. It's like acting: you'll eventually have to move to New York for stage or Los Angeles for screen.

    1. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      The heart of the game industry is the PC. It has been since the Xbox decided to build itself around that industry.

      You want to say all our games are flappy bird? The best graphics are on the PC... not the console.

      As to big picture mode... why do I have to play it on my big screen tv for it count? What if I have a console and I use a small tv? Does that suddenly not count in your system?

      I play roughly 2.5 feet from my screen. It doesn't need to be big.

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    2. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

      You want to say all our games are flappy bird? The best graphics are on the PC... not the console.

      In the paragraph beginning "For mobile devices..." I wasn't referring to PCs or graphics at all. I was comparing input on Android devices to input on the Nintendo 3DS and PlayStation Vita. Android has tended to ship on devices whose only input is a touch screen, and this limits what genres it can pull off effectively without additional input hardware that a developer can't assume that the player already owns.

      As to big picture mode... why do I have to play it on my big screen tv for it count?

      So that the bodies of players 2, 3, and 4 can physically fit around your monitor.

      What if I have a console and I use a small tv?

      No, that just means you probably aren't interested in multiplayer. The PC is fine for single-player and for multiplayer with pickup groups of strangers who live elsewhere. It just hasn't proven itself for local multiplayer.

    3. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      If you're unwilling to consider anything that isn't a console part of the gaming landscape then you're ignoring about 80 percent of the market.

      which renders your whole position laughable.

      Try again.

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    4. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

      If you're unwilling to consider anything that isn't a console part of the gaming landscape then you're ignoring about 80 percent of the market.

      I'm fully willing to consider any effective way to control a platformer with a touch screen that you can recommend. I'm also willing to consider any effective way to allow more than one player on a PC that you can recommend.

    5. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      As you've said, you are unwilling to recognize 80 percent of the market thus by your own admission you're not able to have this discussion.

      Very well.

      Good day, sir.

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    6. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

      What is the first step that I should take toward recognizing 80 percent of the market?

    7. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      You're not though. You've repeatedly dismissed 80 percent of the market as being valid in the discussion. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But in dismissing 80 percent you've effectively attempted to win an argument by changing the subject. Given that sort of mentality, I can only assume you're still trying to play rhetorical games rather then actually discuss the issue like a rational adult.

      I've little patience for such foolishness.

      If you're prepared to actually take your hand out of your pants and have a real discussion we can do that. But adolescent word games are beneath me.

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    8. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

      As I understand this and other comments that you have posted recently, PC is 80 percent of the market. Is it reasonable for a developer of video games for PC expect its customers to fit two to four players around one PC's monitor? And what should a PC game do to automatically adapt to the different button layouts among PC game controllers?

    9. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Actually you don't know the discussion. You've confused yourself.

      We were talking about people moving to avoid localized economic hardship. Which you countered by saying what if they want to work in an industry that is centralized in those areas. You gave as an example the game industry.

      I conceded your point that there might be some industries that do tie you to a city. However, the vast majority of people that live in such cities do not work in any business like that. They might aspire to working in such businesses but only a tiny fraction of them actually can and therefore it is in the interest of most to not live there on purely economic grounds.

      Addressing the game developer issue, I also pointed out that there are a lot of very small game studios some of them no larger then ONE person that are doing alright. They work mostly through steam these days which allows for easy publishing on a shoestring.

      Attempted to counter this by questioning whether 4 people could fit around the computer screen which is irrelevant. I pointed that out and you continued with this line of reasoning. Effectively you were arguing that if the game is not on one of the console it isn't a game. I pointed out that if you were unable to acknowledge 80 percent of the industry then you're making an absurd argument.

      You decided to keep making the argument long after it was established to be not only fallacious but stupid.

      And you're still doing that... which can only lead me to conclude that you're a halfwit.

      In the terms of the gaming world... gg.

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    10. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by tepples · · Score: 1

      I acknowledge that I don't know what I don't know, but I have to start somewhere. Now I'll try to roll up the entire context into one post: I agree that video games are not a geographically restricted industry because 1 or 2 man teams anywhere in the industrialized world can sell single player games through Steam, provided that single player is more important than multiplayer.

    11. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      depends on how you define multiplayer or single player.

      if you mean screen sharing then the only practical medium to do that is on the console because screen sharing a pc screen sucks.

      That said, what you're really saying is that you have to work in city X because Microsoft and Sony aren't as cool with indy developers as Valve is... which isn't a very strong argument.

      You'd do better to talk about the banking industry or the fashion industry. Those tend not to be outside of a few very large cities.

      Even so, you do find banking in small towns. Its often a different type of banking but its as relevant to people there as any kind of banking. What is more, many companies are relocating headquarters to smaller cities because they're just more efficient places to work. The large cities have political, financial, and logistical problems that get worse as the cities get larger and larger. The smaller cities have most of the virtues of the large cities without most of the problems.

      Truly huge cities tend to favor a small elite within the city that tend to almost exclusively enjoy the benefits of that density.

      Keep in mind the point of cities. Do people pack in that tight because they want to be packed in that tight or because someone else wants them packed in that tight? Then ask yourself if you want to do what they want or what you want?

      Suffice to say, unless you're in a pretty small group of people you should give the very large cities the laugh. Most of the higher income you believe you'll make there is an illusion in that nearly all the extra money and often more beyond that is spent on more expensive living costs. Which means someone else is tricking you into living in a place you don't want to live and making you pay for it.

      Seems foolish to me. If you ACTUALLY want to live those cities... then by all means. Have fun. But that isn't why those cities got started or how they've gotten as big as they are now.

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    12. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind the point of cities. Do people pack in that tight because they want to be packed in that tight or because someone else wants them packed in that tight?

      Actually, I believe it's mostly the former

      While some people have no choice where they live, I do think most people have freedom of movement. If they really hate where they are, they can move, like the companies you mentioned. If a company can do it, so can an individual (probably with greater ease, with less costs and logistics involved)

      Since people have freedom, Occam's razor suggest they're there because the benefits of being packed in outweigh the costs.

      Perhaps huge cities do favor the elite, but it doesn't mean it doesn't offer benefits to everyone else. Almost everyone can enjoy things like having more shops in close proximity to browse and having more people around to exchange ideas with.

      You're right that going to the city doesn't mean you'll make it rich, but it doesn't mean it's a trick to enrich the elites either. Consider that when those companies you mentioned move into a smaller city, the elites related to that city will benefit. It doesn't mean either city is trying to trick people. Both cities want people.

    13. Re:TV monitors and mobile directional controls by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      When people get on in years and gain financial independence... do they move to the city or the country?

      I rest my case.

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  55. The more I read Marx and about Marx by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > About the wealth gap, he turned out to be more right than he could have ever foreseen. ... the more I come to realise that his thinking was bloody brilliant, his writing utterly awful and his followers mostly dogmatic knuckleheads with memorized phrases they use to bang each others (mostly) heads with, as well as anyone else within striking distance of them.

    But as I said at the top; Brilliant thinking.

  56. National Debt != Personal Debt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are treating national debt in a country that has a currency like personal debt and it just doesn't work like that. People make this same mistake when talking about Japan's "debts" and it REALLY doesn't work there.

    Design some money and send it to your printer. Put it in your pocket and the nation of "complete looney" accounting would issue debt. Are you going to get tough on yourself and demand payment for the debt generated?? It's just numbers on a page.

  57. I disagree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't agree with this and I doubt that there is any truly scientific analysis to prove this out.

    My own opinion is that this is nothing more than the same behavior and motives behind sharing MP3s, downloading and/or collecting downloaded movies, software, or what ever you collect from the web. It is a social one. It is the same 'need' that gamers build into their games, the beginning with nothing and 'grinding' to acquire as much as you can.

    Why do we play games like WOW and Diablo or even Farmville that make us 'work' to acquire more and better 'items'? What is the difference that searching and hunting for videos, music, software, 'the coolest whatever' to add to your collection and acquire more and a bigger, better collection? Very little.

    For many it is not the desire to collect as much as it is to share and/or show off their collection. The mental rewards of sharing their 'finds' and 'collections' make them feel better. Have you ever bought a DVD and never watched it, yet when the same show is on the TV you will watch it, including commercials? Why? Because you have a social need to interact with others and even though TV is not a truly interactive event it is temporal event that if not viewed at the moment is lost. While most people don't feel this way with DVRs there are many who do and cannot use DVRs for that reason. Have you ever recorded a sporting event? No? Why not? Is it because the game is already over and you don't want to watch something that is already history?

    It is more social and the lack of social interaction in people's lives in these times that people fall back to having to share and communicate and this bleeds over to even non-interaction events such as tv.

  58. Double entry bookkeeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think that means what you think it means.

    1. Re:Double entry bookkeeping by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Bank creates mortgage and records it in their asset column, and creates an entry for your loan in their liability column. Then you pay the vendor, which moves the liability from your account to theirs. If the vendor has a different bank, the two banks settle at the end of the day by borrowing overnight cash, or by repeating a very similar loan & deposit transaction with a central bank. And hey presto, the quantity and velocity of "money" in the economy has increased.

      Banks don't lend from deposits or reserves. They lend the money first, which creates a matching deposit, and they borrow money later to meet their reserve and capital requirements if they have to.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    2. Re:Double entry bookkeeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you describe is fractional-reserve banking. Double-entry bookkeeping is simply a way of writing down financial records that makes errors easier to spot.

    3. Re:Double entry bookkeeping by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Not that money multiplier myth again. Don't tell me you still believe in that old chestnut. Even the Bank of England has given up that myth.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  59. Well said, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is notable is how quickly demand shifts from legacy vendors to "share" vendors.

    I don't think it is just about price. Airbnb and Uber are well run and always come through. More than I can say for my roomnight/taxi experiences all over the world.
    .
    At least for the two services I use constantly... (Airbnb/Uber)... they improved the system. Not just took it over. BTW... Uber hates the moniker "share". Because Uber is not trying to be the fad that most of the "share economy" will end up being.

  60. Re:Growth is not necessity, Greed as ROI by bbsalem · · Score: 1

    I take a different tact on investment and how it shapes change. I think that digital technology has not only eliminated jobs and not replaced opportunity for more people than it has helped, but that human nature, greed, really has used digital technology to drive investment into unproductive behavior and that has caused the imbalances and lopsided income distribution. That effect will lead to greater social and political instability the world over and tech workers, engineers, and programmers may eventually bear the burden of blame. I am not talking Luddism, but I am talking political economy.

    Although the points about growth, integration, and the reduction of quality are well taken, they don't go far enough to describe how computers have driven business into shorter and shorter term management and demands from investors for quicker ROI without regard for rendering anything of value. I am particularly concerned about how programmed trading and the large servers management by investment firms has encouraged speclative investment practices and about the large amounts of capital tied up in arbritage transactions. Classical theorists did not have to deal with this level of unproductive investment because the technology to enable it did not exist and markets had a sanity that reflected judgments of humans making "rational" choices. The use of computers in investment has changed all of that. It was a major factor in the crash of 2008 and the systemic problems has not been addressed by regulators. It needs to be. At least there needs to be latency introduced into equities transactions, 30 seconds a trade would probably repair much of the damage being done.

    If the 800 pound ape in the room is a large institutional investment house who financializes all its decisions, how can small businesses and small investors have a chance to make decisions based on producing quality services or products?

  61. Re:Growth is not necessity, Greed as ROI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers have caused more crashes. There was the crash in 1987 (Black Monday) that was partially caused by program trading (if price goes under a threshold, sell.)

    What would be good is either a latency, or a small cost (a cent per share) for each transaction. That will allow people to trade... but it will make it not worth it for the whole economy to shoulder the burden of HFT and the fact that a business has to be profitable -now-... which means charging off earnings for a more profitable future grounds for shareholder lawsuits.

    And that is one reason we can't have good things here in the US.

  62. Re:Growth is not necessity Shareholder: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $SHAREHOLDER== "PARASITE"

    Not always true, but a good first approximation. I think it likely legitimate business financing needs would be better served by corporate bonds than stocks.

    Stock "ownership" has in some respects a negative aspect similar to certain limited-duration copyrights ( the ones that last longer than the habitable life of the universe) : Pay once; profit forever"; I thought that having a "Sense of entitlement" was for Poor People!

    Taxes are often bewailed as 'distorting the market' how is the idea of 'maximization of stockholder value' as a primary goal any less so?

    see Bruce Sterling's "Cryptonomicon" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptonomicon

    I may be 100% wrong, if so, educate me!

  63. Re:Growth is not necessity Shareholder: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm for stakeholders... not shareholders.

    With a companystakeholder relationship, things go both ways. With a company->shareholder relationship, there isn't any loyalty that a shareholder has to care about... if the stock drops, sell.

    Having a market is one thing, but a lot of our woes are coming from the fact that shareholders tend not to be stakeholders.

  64. May be by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Sharing economy may promote compassion

  65. Here's what they do in Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife became "unemployed" when she moved to become my wife. They paid her to attend a job training school. (with strict attendance and grade requirements). More strictly speaking, I think it was a requirement imposed on extending the length of unemployment insurance payments. The local employment assistance office (actually called "Hello Work!" in Japan... that's the official name.) sent her to school and taught her MS Office, business etiquette, and some Korean. Then they placed the students as trainees in local businesses for some on-the-job exposure. My wife already worked at a big company before the move, so she only did it all just to get paid. However, it does seem like the right way to go about it (compared to the throw you in the streets mentality of the US) for the typical low-skill displaced worker. If this gets some fraction of people off of public assistance, I think the program would pay for itself. (I haven't seen hard numbers one way or another, though.) It makes too much sense to try in the US, though.

  66. Paying your dues by tepples · · Score: 1

    Gaining this financial independence requires first paying your dues, and in a lot of cases, that traditionally happens in a city.

    1. Re:Paying your dues by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Not my point. We were talking about where people wanted to live once they had choices. Your argument is that they have no choice so its good that they live in the city which is a circular argument.

      Please be logical.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.