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Ask Slashdot: Joining a Startup As an Older Programmer?
First time accepted submitter bdrasin (17319) writes "I've had a series of interviews with a late-term startup (approx. 300 employees) and I think there is a good chance they will make me an offer. The technology is great, my skills and interests are a good fit for the position, I think the company has a promising future, and I like they team. Frankly I'm damn excited about it, more so than for any job in my career. However, I'm worried about what could euphemistically be called 'cultural' issues. I'm a few years over 40, with a wife and kids, and all of the engineers at the company seem to be at least 10 years younger than I am. Being at the company's office gives me a distinct old guy at the club feeling.
I don't think the overall number of hours the team works is more than I could handle, but the team does a lot of young-single-guy-at-a-startup group activities (rent-a-limo-and-go-clubbing night, weekends in Tahoe, Burning Man, in-office happy hour) that I wouldn't want or be able to participate in; I need to be home with my family for dinner most nights and weekends and so on. I'm wondering if anyone else has had the experience of working at a startup with, or as, an older programmer, and how it worked out?"
Be warned.
Well dat's awesome dawg, welcome aboard n' shit.
came-up with a great solution to that problem. He just lied and told everyone else he was a Republican. He never got invited to another social event again. Even the ons that were in the office! He obviously wasn't one of those horrible people, but it is a great way to get smart people to avoid you. He later got fired after our CEO's daughter married a black man, and the CEO assumed there would be office violence because of the way those people are. That is the way of their kind.
Maybe you should just do your work instead of trying to co-exist with younger people raising hell. If these activities you mentioned are part of the company requirements then the company isn't focused on success; just spending their investors' money.
At the start up I work at, the older employees with Enterprise experience are more valued by the boss than the maverick hipster coders due to the buddy system and the older guys are more reliable and less likely to come in with a hangover.
Don't try to make any jokes or allusions that would get modded funny on /.
Gently reply
Because what you describe sounds more like the Hollywood version of a tech start up than any of the actual start-ups I've worked for and with.
Not that there can't be issues from the cultural differences between established companies and start-ups or between 40-something married with children and 20 & 30-something single, but if I'm looking to join a company as a programmer and Burning Man is on my list of concerns, I would not be looking to join this company.
If it were a very small company and that were the culture, I'd be wary. But 300 people is reasonably big. Can you get an impression of whether the limo-and-clubbing type activities are something everyone participates in? It's quite possible that, despite being a high-profile part of the "company culture", it's only a smallish subset of people who actually go to those events, not all 300 employees. In that case it might not be a big issue, you'd just join the other people who don't go.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
300 employees doesn't really sound like a startup to me.
Are you sure they're not just leveraging the startup culture to sucker employees into working insane hours without compensation?
They all knew I had a family and could not experience all the single-guy-out-on-the-town stuff. I instead, genuinely, showed interest in hearing about their antics, which they enjoyed sharing with me. I also kept up on all the newest techniques and news of the languages and frameworks we used. Thus instead of "old guy" I became the quasi guru. Having a beard helps.
Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. - Adam Smith (1723-90)
I think with any diverse company, you will be bringing skill, experience, and knowledge - so I would definitely look up to you. As an adult in his early twenties and a programmer, I'd respect your position, especially because you have that much more experience than I do. And maybe you will fit that stereotype of an "old guy" in their eyes, but so what? In my eyes, there are two types of old guys: those that are cantankerous and complain about the way society is today, or, the guy that understands the times and accepts it for what it is, but is able to maintain a sense of humour and isn't as livid about the ways things are today.
That, and clubs are generally over-rated. Your team may do young people things, but I think as long as you do your job right with the right attitude, you're doing your job and that's what matters most. That and you're doing what you want to do - as shown through your enthusiasm - so why not take advantage of where you're at right now?
I hope you get the offer you deserve.
If enough of them have young kids (and your 40+ years - 10 puts many of your peers in the mid-30s), then they'll be going through the same stuff, only have less experience. Come in as the voice of wisdom and experience. It's useful!
Just don't spend too much time talking about old systems. Some older programmers do that, and it just distances themselves unnecessarily. Having used an older system isn't a technical merit, it's just saying that you're old. Interesting anecdotes, special features, and spectacular failures of old systems, however, are fun to hear.
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
and it won't matter that you don't show up to every outside team-bonding event. Good people won't fault that you already have a life outside of work. If they do, you might reconsider working there for that reason. Otherwise, focus on the work, be engaged and open-minded, and you'll be fine.
Let go of the age thing. That is all a state of mind. And if applied right, your experience will be valuable. I say this from experience. I'm almost always the old guy now. But I keep my skills sharp and current and I listen to what others have to contribute. My age gives me experience, but I can always benefit from more energy and bold new ideas.
I am pretty sure the average 40 year old still needs to work for a living, even in tech. The proportion of people who are wealthy enough to do their own thing by age 40 is very low.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That's pretty absurd. There is very little in common between software development and company development. You seem to postulate that company building is a more advanced form of development that software development grows into naturally. That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.
This question so accurately describes where I currently work, that I'm seriously wondering if you're talking about my company. If so, I can tell you, I am one of the younger guys who works at a company exactly as you described and we recognize that we lack experience. We have youthful vigor, time and energy, but we are hungry for experienced people who have seen the pitfalls and mistakes that can be made and give us guidance. There are always the people who put in the extra time because they are young, with no spouses or children, and the culture is sort of transitioning from a startup to a more compartmentalized corporate culture. We recognize the people who put in the extra blood sweat and tears, but we also recognize the value of an experienced worker who doesn't have to do that, and as such, there is no negative stigma from the company culture around people who want to go home at the normal time, and stick to putting in sane (40 - 50 hour weeks) time. I say go for it, because the older guys in the club get respect and recognition. If you really have wisdom and have not wasted your years, then your experience will be plenty to show for it.
That's pretty absurd. There is very little in common between software development and company development. You seem to postulate that company building is a more advanced form of development that software development grows into naturally. That's a pretty ridiculous assertion.
The firm, now large and organized, can no longer be a roving band of inspired friends. It has to dock onto the household world.
Just admire your co-workers and invite a few to dinner now and then. They've already decided they like you.
At 300 people, there's bound to be people who don't enjoy the singles party night -theme. Find them, and figure out together what would be a nice way to spend time - a Sunday brunch with spouses and kids invited (for those who have them)? Pack a lunch during day and go enjoy it in the park? A monthly game night (a regular activity is easier to arrange than an spontaneous one when you have a family). Suggest things to your HR or whoever is responsible for your activities - they're probably out of ideas anyway and would welcome someone who would help them out.
I'm above 40 and an executive in a (small) startup where almost everyone has a family, so we have very little outside work social activity by the company. But it's totally fine and we're still churning out good stuff and enjoying our work. We just have to be a bit more innovative as to how we socialize :)
I'm higher up in management but can still out code any developer I have. Our GM for our location is moving us from the burbs (5 minutes from my house, one of the reasons for taking the job) to a downtown office (1+hr commute from my house). I can quote him in saying that "People would rather have a cool place to work rather than having work life balance (WLB)". I called him out on it as I completely disagree.
Cultural activities can be had that don't have to interfere with your WLB. Grabbing a quick Friday @ 4 drink (in the office even) doesn't impact things much. In the end, the only person who can drive your success is yourself. Setting office hours clearly helps. IE, I will always be there by nine, and I won't take meetings after 4pm (my personal plan). Employers would love for you to work 24/7 because we get more out of you in the end. But, I would rather have a guy who is excited, happy and engaged, outdoing the younger kids and showing how it gets done, all while having that WLB. Those are the people who you can trust to drive projects forward.
You're there to get a job done, your colleagues shouldn't care what you do so long as you're pulling your weight. However, this ultimately comes down to office culture. It will be difficult for anyone to give you clear direction since both you and the company are unknowns. The fact that you're concerned enough about it to post the question on Slashdot may indicate you need to objectively re-evaluate the people and the company.
Also, the "you should be founding startups at your age" sounds very much like those child games where four kids decide to play an army - a general, a colonel, a lieutenant and a private. If everyone after 40 is going to be a CEO or a VP, who's going to be doing all the expert technical work at the grunt first class level?
Ezekiel 23:20
My first company was a startup, the CEO was 30, and we had an older programmer. It was great because he was the most experienced guy on the team, he didn't try to boss us around, and I learned a lot from him.
As long as you don't try to say, "I'm older than you so I'm smarter" it should be fine.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
You obviously have orders of magnitude more experience. Rise through the ranks. Take over management of the team. Fire everyone and replace them with your own hires over time.
End of problem.
Mike
-- Karma whore? You betcha
-- Karma whore? You betcha. --
Your family should support you, at least until you do not feel a part of the team. Taking part of the crazy activities with your co-workers is an essential part of the team integration, so you need to participate too. Believe me, 30 YO and 40 YO are sometimes indistinguishable in look, so just jump in - most of the borders you set between you and the rest of your colleagues comes from you.
I have no kids, but work predominantly with people in their late 20s and early 30s (I'm 45). I don't have a problem; I'm the old man engineer who lived through USCD Pascal p-code only to see it resurrected as Java (and C#) byte code, and to be honest, I get a fair amount of respect from the younger engineers. They are up on the newest trends, some of which I regard as fads, others will have staying power. I try to keep them on the straight and narrow in terms of a bit of discipline and taking the long view. Everything has been fine.
A couple of things I do as a senior engineer (I'm not management officially, but I am the equivalent of a graybeard in the background):
Respect them (the younger employees). Nobody wants to be made to feel stupid. Do not look down your nose at them.
Make gentle corrections. If a bad decision is about to be made despite your best attempts to head it off at the pass, make your view known discretely via backchannel communication with management so that if it does go south they're (hopefully) not going to hang it around your neck.
If you have a difference of opinion and prevail against others, do so graciously and do NOT (within your ability) allow animus to develop. Kids (under 30) take playing hardball personally, even if that wasn't your intention. If they make it personal, shut them down by explaining the art of attacking the issue and not you.
Make use of teachable moments while not talking down to them.
Realize that while it may be a bit daunting that they adopt new technologies and methodologies at light speed, the methodical, clearer thought process of the older engineer often complements this. It takes two to tango. You're not worthless, and neither are they.
Make time to show up for a few of the more innocuous extracurriculars even though you have a family. You don't have to go to the strip club, but a couple of drinks and a round of pool won't kill you.
This is not for the question submitter, but in general, do not fuck your coworkers. About once or twice a year I end up attracting the attention of a younger engineer of the opposite sex who mistakes mentoring and being a nice guy for mate material. This is a workplace complication you do not need. If you're confident in the middle of the biggest engineering shitstorm ever and manage to right the ship, you're going to attract attention, and not just from management. I've made the mistake of sleeping with a coworker ONCE a few years ago. Not good.
enjoy the ride!
Teach them something they don't know
Solve a problem they can't solve
Become the go-to guy when stuff goes wrong
Do this, and the rest won't matter
...a 'startup'?
That's a mid-sized to approaching large company...
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The people I know have become software consultants, set up their own company with a friend, or become "architects" at large institutions, do freelance work like writing. As the people at the top of the power pyramid are constantly retiring, leaving to new pastures, shedding their mortal coils so that creates a certain amount of "pull" within the organisation (to quote the Peter Principle). So if you find something you enjoy, it's better to set up your own company and work as a contractor or freelancer.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
I'm 55. 4 years ago, I left a good paying job at a Fortune-100 cube farm (where I was miserable) and went with a startup (where I'm having fun again). Best decision I ever made. I'm the oldest person in the company. Many of the people I work with are half my age. It all works just fine. Get over it. You're there to do a job, not be a frat buddy. If you don't want to go clubbing with the guys after work, don't go clubbing.
On the other hand, go into it with your eyes open. Startups are not the most financially stable place to work. Before I took this job, I discussed it with my wife. We've got no kids, no debt, and enough in the bank that if the startup went bust in 6 months (as, statistically, startups are likely to do), we'd still be OK. I would be more worried if I had kids to support, and loss of a paycheck might mean missing a mortgage or car payment.
Ask yourself this:
What do you have over a H-1B who is 20-25 and who can do 10,000 lines of code a day? That is eventually what you will have to figure out in order to keep your job eventually.
Go with family and quality of life. Stock options, etc. have a way of evaporating unless you are among the elite club at the top issuing them.
Unless you are willing to be a complete back stabbing, throat cutting bastard wiling to work 100+ hours per week with a bunch of other younger, stronger, stupider wannabes wiling to do the same.
And even then there's the risk of the big startup bet being stupid to start with.
It could pay off if you're ruthless enough, but you have to also consider the opportunity cost of all those lost years and the moral and personal compromises you would have to make.
You don't sound like that kind of guy. And that's OK.
I dropped out of that rat race, but was lucky enough to leverage my experience, expertise, and most importantly my industry contacts to do our own little boutique business that made us comfortable, at least for now.
Never got my own jet, but at one point I was ready to settle for a van down by the river selling bait and beer.
Your mileage may vary.
If they've got 300 people with degrees and a little bit of experience, surely many of them are old enough to have commitments at home. You might be taking your 10 year old to soccer practice, well they might have their first baby or whatever. Plenty there will have time consuming hobbies and not show up, no matter what phase of life they're in it's far from everyone each time. And to be honest, if they're 25 and single they probably don't want to have the 40+ married guy with them any more than you want to see them hit on chicks rather than be with your family. Don't worry you'll be fine, they'll be fine and certainly in a company that size surely there's enough people to hang out with that are in the same situation for the social gatherings you do join in on. Maybe if you'd said 30, but 300? That's plenty.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You are in your forties? When I was 45 I joined the most interesting start up and did some of the best work of my career. They were much smaller too, only a bit over 40 people in total. I was probably the oldest there at the time. It was absolutely not a problem. 40s is nothing. It is very common is the valley. Including many start ups started by people in their 40s and 50s. Why on earth would you even worry about it. Be yourself, kick butt, take names.
I'm working at a similar second-stage startup (has had significant second/third round investment but still very young). I'm turning 40 this year [yay birthday vacation to Chernobyl!], there are a lot of young'ns in the office. I came from a Fortune 500 company full of processes and requirements and paperwork and ...
NEWSFLASH: NOBODY CARES.
We are a startup. Many of the MVPs are actually remote. They may not be wearing pants on any given day; I'm not sure. One of the reasons I was hired was to add maturity/realworld regulatory-compliant experience to the company. I have about 7 people in the USA reporting to me, and a few more than that in different countries. Average age of my team is probably mid 20s, but it ranges from "just turned 21" to "early 50s". I need all of those people, for different reasons.
Be excellent. That's why they're going to hire you.
What is "late-term" in this context?
Number of employees is not a particularly relevant measure (except perhaps of how much money the investors are willing to throw away). How long since the first employee was hired? How many employees were there a year ago?
I thrived and became one of the more important cogs mainly because of the understanding of the management. They judged me more holistically, taking into account minor things like helping to keep the morale up and non coding contributions about long term strategy etc. I did deliver on code too, the code base I laid out for my module scaled from 1 mill $ sales to more than 100 million dollar in sales, adapted and developed well and supported features of wide range of products.
But they were not clairvoyants, they would not have known my work was sound and it would scale well. Somehow they sensed that though I was seen at work less than the bachelor boys, the quality of my work was good. It could have easily gone the otherway, they might have discouraged me, reduced my freedom, second guessed my decisions, or out sourced my module. If you are lucky enough to have management like I got, you would do well. If you got PHBs you will end up as Dilbert.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Don't look for differences between co-workers. Look for shared interests between you.
I think you'll find, alot of 20-30yr olds wish they had the stability you have with your family.
I'm turning 60 this month. My current (startup) employer had less than 50 employees when I started a year and a half ago; my previous employer was at about 200 employees, pre-IPO, when I started my 2+ year stint there. At both places I had co-workers younger than my youngest child.
I don't think missing the extra-curricular stuff is going to be a big impediment. What's most important is whether your skills and knowledge are current, and being able to adapt to the work environment. I have contemporaries who have struggled with new technologies, languages or methodologies (i.e., scrum vs. waterfall) and therefore haven't thrived in the same environments. I haven't gone out of my way to adapt "culturally" (music, entertainment, etc.), but there's usually something of common interest to talk about.
If you've gone through several interviews and there is a mutual desire to work together, go for it. The startup could be the best place to keep you from becoming sold a calcified before you're 50! :-)
This looks like the kind of stuff that Slashdot has been frontpaging for some time. They know it encourages churn.
I suspect the OP is completely constructed of whole cloth.
Welcome to hell, kid.
Democrats?
Futurist Traditionalism
Really good programmers, of any age, are not easy to recruit and hire. If you're consistently hitting home runs with your actual work product, and you're easy to work with, it should more than make up for any shortcomings you might have in the social/cultural aspects of your job.
I've worked at startups for the last 2 years. It's OK to be one of the "grownups" there and duck out of the social activities. They'll still massively value your work, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of others in your age range to relate to.
BTW, I'm 36, with a wife and 2 kids, and I work in New York.
I'm involved with 2 startups and your age is barely higher than average but you're not even in the oldest 25%
Timmy from down the street? You know, the kid with the glasses.
Bug off, APK.
--
Trolling all trolls since 2001.
I was involved in a startup in my 40s. It ultimately failed, but I learned lessons that will hopefully be valuable to you to. What you describe sounds like a dream job for most people. As long as you get it, I don't think you have to be concerned at all about being older than the others. They will appreciate the times when someone comes up with a bad idea that looks good, but you can say "I've seen this before, here's what happened..." - as long as you are right. Even better will be the times when someone has an unproven idea and you can say, "I remember a couple of times when one of our developers had an off the wall idea that we all wondered about, but it was appealing enough that we went with it anyway and it worked." As for the hours, there will be 20 and 30 somethings who will go on 24+ hour coding binges. Did you do that when you were in your 20s? Do you think you would be productive doing it? Does management expect you to disrupt your family life? It's hard to believe a company that has grown to have 300 employees would have leadership that expects all of their employees to destroy their personal life. If they do, the company won't be the success everyone hopes for anyway. (Well, the founders might walk away with a lot of money before it implodes, but you won't. You have to assess that risk.)
The great thing about a good startup is the chance it offers to to new kinds of work and see it succeed in the marketplace. This can be really exciting. It's possible that you might have a similar opportunity in a large company but the odds are very low since you will be separated from the product or service by layers of management and bureaucratic rules. Yes you will get a steady paycheck, but it will never compare with the huge win you can get at a startup and the satisfaction of knowing you had a direct role in the success. You can also ask yourself if the startup role will make you a better developer. If the company fails, will you have improved your technical knowledge so that you are still valuable to other companies? In an established company it's more likely that you will just be a code monkey whose skills slowly evaporate without you realizing it, although you don't sound like the kind of person who would let that happen. If OTOH, the company you work for is run by PHBs who are forcing you to work on obsolete stuff, you have to leave anyway. Some large companies do have great jobs, though, but I don't think you would be looking if you were really happy where you are.
From your description of the job and given that you don't sound like the Get Off My Lawn type, I would suggest that you join the startup if they make you an offer that is reasonable.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
Pick your parties and go to them once in a while. You might be able to show the young kids how it's done once in a while. I go out with the "kids" and teach them how to ride snowmobiles and trek for more than a night. I also horse ball, that made them think twice before trying to tackle me.
I need to be home with my family for dinner most nights
A person who needs to be home for dinner most nights it a terrible fit for a startup.
I'm only in my mid-30s, but I've worked at 2 startups with a successful exit, and am currently at a 3rd. Both of the successful ones had older programmers (the new one doesn't because it's tiny. When we hire next older programmers will be considered). They were all respected for their contribution at work. Both startups had some of the "startup atmosphere", but there was never more than friendly invitations to join in, rather than pressure to be there. If you want to join in once in a while you'd likely be welcome, and a beer with your colleagues every few weeks can be a great way to lower tensions (or in my case a soda as I watched them drink).
The main thing is to remember to treat the younger people with respect. At a startup you'll likely hire a lot of young people because they're cheap, especially for non-critical roles. Remember that they're young, not stupid (at least most of them)- show them why they're wrong politely and show them why your way is better respectfully. There's great opportunities for mentorship there. Do that and you'll fit in just fine. You may even make friends with the more mature younger people- the age difference tends not to be as big a deal as people think.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
We were on the pub about every second day, but also had the rutine that all the managers had a night out every Wednesday after salary and he made sure he was able to join for at least 2-3hours 95% of the occasions. And that was actually enough for him to be one of the team and keep up to date on all the strange rumors and so on.
Or you're supposed to be in management by now. And you've slowed down and can't possibly hope to keep up with the 20-somethings.
Any other cliches we've missed that are impossible to apply to everyone who's a 40-something programmer?
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
If you feel that the company's culture won't be accepting of your needs, run away. It's that acceptance that you need to look for. Don't think that you need to change to fit the existing environment. That's not culture. Is just what the current culture already accepts.
Social media and technology thoughts: http://jasonkinner.wordpress.com
Exactly. It's not like Zuckerberg coded facebook himself. He stole it of someone else. Entirely different skillset already.
When I was in my mid thirties I managed a team of 40 programmers. Their ages ranged from 17 to 57. The youngest were the most energetic, but the old ones wrote the best code. I'll take the 57 year old guy anyday. LOL, I am him now.
Assuming I don't lose my dentures and my hip doesn't give out I'm sure I'll be able to come up with some right after my daily afternoon nap.
- 43-year-old programmer
Bark less. Wag more.
Startups really are for younger people. When you are younger, you are more agile (in more ways than one) and can afford to fail. For most people, these two critical attributes vanish before they reach 30 years old.
The technology sector has become the most ruthless place to work. If you weren't born with a near-genius IQ or didn't graduate from a prestigious school, you can all but forget about being successful. Remember, Google gets a million applications every year. And if you haven't made it in tech by 30, it's definitely time to find a new career. I've seen a lot of people squander the best decades of their lives spinning their wheels in tech.
My friend, who just turned 31, spent nearly 8 years in college getting advanced degrees in science and engineering. Since graduating he's tried to make it in tech without success. Last year, he moved back in with his parents and began a new career in retail at Wal-Mart. When asked why he made this move, he said he didn't want to die a virgin. He wasn't kidding; trying to make it in tech left him no time for a life.
His entry level Wal-Mart job doesn't pay great, but he hopes to work his way up to at least store manager, which pays a salary comparable to tech jobs. In the meantime, he is working reasonable hours (sometimes as few as nine hours per day), staying off welfare, and has found time to date. He's happier than he's been in years.
Tech is no place for a washed up 40 year old. I know it sounds harsh, but I'm not trying to be mean. Sometimes you have to give up and do something where you can have some success and just be happy.
If all you are worried about is cultural bias, don't worry about it. I'm in my mid 40s and I've been in start-ups for much of my career. If you have the skills they are looking for and the product(s) interests you, you will fit in well enough. If all that interests you is your offspring, you won't. (That applies to pubs/golf courses/spas too).
You will have insight into problems that the 20 somethings will never have. You will have strategies that are different and desires that are refined for the products you work on. That is nothing to be shy or ashamed of. You will learn - they will learn. It's called win-win.
IMHO 300 employees is not a start-up in tech. There's bound to be many old-timers hidden from view - probably eating other peoples lunches.
rent-a-limo-and-go-clubbing night, weekends in Tahoe, Burning Man, in-office happy hour
I'm 44 now, and I have never wanted to go to Burning man. A weekend in Tahoe might be okay. In-office happy hours, however, are just a gathering with your co-workers for about an hour in a conference room with free food and beer. Almost all of the companies I've worked for (of all sizes) have people of all ages, and these happy hours were a nice, quick break. I wouldn't fear them.
I honestly think you won't have a problem fitting in. Being the only person to show up early in the morning without a hangover might be to your advantage, anyway.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I know when I worked in I.T. for a medium-size company (not a start-up, mind you - but a long established place that only fully embraced computer technology relatively late in its existence), the staff were all 20 and 30-somethings, with interests in things like going clubbing, attending big concerts, partying late into the night ... the usual for the demographic.
At that time, I was a 30-something myself, at the tail end of any interest in that social scene. But interestingly, they hired a Java developer who was in his early 50's, and amazingly, he fit right into the group. The 20-something developers quickly learned to respect his years of experience they lacked, and he found a middle ground with the socializing that worked well. (Basically, he'd attend most of the Friday happy hours, but make sure to leave fairly early. By making an appearance, he got known as "part of the group" and got a chance to chat with his peers about programming-related issues and non work-related stuff. Especially after a few drinks, people usually didn't even notice or remember what time he left. If it was ever brought up, people would quickly forgive it as, "Hey... he's 50 years old. It's cool as hell he hangs out with us at all!")
Even now, as a 40-something, at my current job? I'm one of the older employees in the company, except for upper management and the owners. I'm probably a bit left out of the socializing, truth be told. (I get half-heartedly invited to some of the after-work gatherings, but I'm sure it's more because they feel pressure not to leave anyone out than because they really want me to go.) But the culture is slowly evolving.... Some of the younger folks are getting married and starting families, and you can feel the shift in priorities with them. I'm even noticing the upper management starting to attend the after work events less than they used to, which I think is an acknowledgement of a cultural divide starting to happen .... "Older folks doing one thing, while the younger ones do another -- but all working as a team during business hours."
Bottom line? If you really like the rest of the job, go for it! Maybe put in a token effort to socialize ... tell the family that *sometimes* you're going to skip dinner. But find a good balance. If they care at all about what they actually do there, they'll keep you for your skills, regardless.
I'm working in a similar situation. Bigger outfit, and I'm a bit older, but unless the culture is really off the rails then I believe it's all about how you handle it.
In my case, the key is to not exclude myself. I definitely don't participate in all the extracurricular activities, but I do join in enough to stay part of the scene. Yep, I've been to one of those epic Tahoe long weekends. Disc golf at the park. Drunk at the office. Barhopping in the Mission. But only once in a while.
Even the occasional late-nighter is doable; in my case the girlfriend travels for work occasionally, so I just load up on coffee and Dew and code-rage with the gang when she's away. Your situation will be different, but I bet there's a way you can crunch hard a few nights a year.
I've found that if I go out of my way to fit in, others go out of their way to include me. It helps that I'm "youthful" (a nice way to put it) and active for my age, and have hipster-friendly interests since before they were cool, like rock climbing, cycling, and whisky. But I only participate in a fraction of the party mentality and no one seems to mind.
So I'd suggest jumping in! Just be yourself and don't let the grown-up pants get too tight. Focus what you can do, not what you can't. Hang out late once in a while, teach the young bucks how to hold their liquor, go on one of those Tahoe trips. Chill with the crew on a Saturday afternoon, then bow out when it's time to hit the clubs. Just keep it at the level that works for you, stay positive, and have fun.
I've even been able to bend the culture where I work a bit. More stuff is SO-friendly. A few peoople have quietly aspired to more "balance." And some days the chess set gets more action than the (obligatory) foosball table. It's okay to be the old guy. Own it. Make the place better for it.
There is very little in common between software development and company development.
Yup, and "age" has nothing to do with either, experience does. If you work as a programmer, then as you age you should get better. But not because you are older, but because you are more experienced. I am an old guy (mid-fifties) and on my fifth startup. One was a clear success, the current one has been partially successful, and the other three were complete failures. I learned much more from the failures. The first was when I was when I was thirty, and I have worked at startups ever since. My situation is different in a number of ways: I was on the founding team every time, and my wife is more of a workaholic than me, so I am under no pressure on that. The biggest risk with a startup is usually financial, but if this company already has 300 employees, they either have plenty of funding or solid revenues. Your gray hair can be a significant asset to a startup. Investors like to see some adult supervision, so you should try to take on the role of the wise old veteran when you meet with them. Don't worry about the "social activities". If you pull your weight at work, the twenty-somethings aren't going to care if you go snowboarding with them.
Stop looking at this as an us-and-them dynamic, as though there is a line somewhere which divides the "old" from the "young" and everyone on one side is a firmly entrenched, 1-dimensional stereotype.
People are different and I doubt that everyone at that company enjoys the specific culture you have described (let alone doing so proportional to their "youth"). If you can work well together, that is the primary concern.
I'm 35. I recently left a startup where most of the people there were about 10 years earlier. The difference is a bit more than age for me - I spent most of the 10 years I had on them working for a University, but the combination of age and differences in interests were very rough - I didn't feel that I fit in, I didn't hang out with them after work, I didn't want the same things out of life, and so on. It can be rough.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
But now that I am 54, the domain have age as well and the mix of people are more representative of the the general population. There a lot you can contribute at any age, each have is own perspective of a problem.
When I was younger, I always enjoy working with older people. Chance are that your future collegue do as well.
I'm in a similar situation - 42, working with folks in their 20's who get together often after work. No need to make any excuses or feel guilty, just explain that you appreciate the offer but have to get home for dinner. You are at a different stage in life, and once the kids are off to college you will have more time to get together after work.
I'm 27. I wouldn't care to do most of those things either.
I'm 10 years older than you and worked for a variety of startups in the last 20 years, and am just starting in a "new one" yes they are all 20 years younger than I am, but ... somehow they think I can bring something to the table... ...
Including BTW a large network of contacts
About the "cultural thing", you should probably discuss with your familly and negociate that you will be very late about 4 days in each month (but not necessarely friday night)... then decide what you would like to do there night, it could be going to gothic festivals, play pool or snooker, go bowling, organize Maker's event, go to steampunk events, real time go language programming, what ever ... .. (think tech oriented meetups at meetup.com or similar stuff)
Pick stuff you like and could convince "them to do", stuff they like and you could tolerate (or even enjoy) doing... things you find interesting and that you could actually organize and be seen as a kind of leader in
Then try to find once a month an event you can tolerate and that is organized allready... ...) ...
Organize once a month or every two monthes a meetup or something similar about something techy you care about and invite the rest of the company to attend
Invite everybody once a month to something you find fun (if they do not come it's their problem, just make sure it is something that they just might be interested in
And think about what the fourth "free pass" in the month could be
nb: try to find a baby sitter if necessary for these days so that your wife can do whatever she wants also...
Even if you only organize a subset of this plan you will find out that you will have more than necessary time to "network" with the team, you do not need to go clubbing all night (you allready found your wife, and if you are thinking of cheating on her doing it in front of your colleages would be the worst possible idea...) ... :)) but are not necessary, particularly if you get to speak to the same people "off road" during pub&pool or bowling or the "meetup.com about " event you organize or help organize ...
In office happy hours are not really a problem if you remember that you can also drink a coke without rhum, just explain if somebody is jocking about it that you are going to drive home, and they both your children and the companies investors would rather see you alive tomorrow
And other "week-end", holliday activities can be fun & interesting (burning man !!
And at the end of the day, what people care the most is "code that actually works", and "answers to a couple of hard questions" ...
So don't worry if you stay cool you'll do great ....
And it will end in your departure from the company, probably voluntarily...
It sounds from their choice of activities that you will be surrounded by a bunch of irresponsible misanthropes who are at least 5 minutes late to work, 5 minutes late to meetings, and are willfully ignorant of how much time the scheduled a conference room for, happily running their meeting overtime into your time slot in the room so they can catch up on last nights bender at Twin Peaks.
Working with them is probably going to be terrible and frustrating. I wouldn't bother if I were you.
Don't worry about it, just be yourself. I'm 41 and almost everyone I work with is between 23 and 29. Moreover I don't drink. I've been working in this environment for just over a year (holding a seltzer during the happy hours, leaving promptly at 5:10 most days, etc) - and it has not been a problem at all. I make a polite and brief appearance at dinner events a few times a year, and that's that. So far, I'm enjoying the work, after many years of being stuck in a rut. Let your completed work do the talking.
Since when can a company with 300 people be called a 'startup'?
That's a mid-sized to approaching large company...
When they're funded and just wasting the money while it lasts.
Timmy from down the street? You know, the kid with the glasses.
I thought you meant Timmy the kid with the pink t-shirt and baseball cap from Fairly Odd Parents.
Thing is the cunning old bastard was a lot more productive than the youngsters burning nights.
He automated repetative coding tasks rather than burning hours , didn't make as many mistakes and knew when to cut the throat of a project that wasn't going to work out.
Slightly different skill set and ways of working is a good thing.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Start-ups are for people of all ages. I've done multiple start-ups in my 20's, 30's and 40's. Some had very successful exits, other's no so much, but that is the way of the industry. I spent my 20's just learning the ropes and not to be taken by a huckster with a big wallet, big ego and a slick sales pitch. By my 30's I had been around the block long enough to have experience under my belt to not just contribute technically, but the maturity to contribute in other ways as well in leadership roles. In my 40's I starting pursing opportunities because they be "fun" and mentally rewarding more than financially rewarding.
Now that I'm getting close to my 50's with a family my priorities in my life have shifted and I'm involved in consulting and contracting to stay in touch with the start-up experience, but be "paid" for my work and not be as mentally invested so as to suffer the consequences when things don't work out so well -- as the great majority of start-ups don't go bust for a variety of reasons.
In my career I've run across a lot more people who failed to contribute because they still had a youthful "I know everything attitude" than because they were washed-up in the 40's. A person in their 40's will likely have enough self-introspection to know whether they are or aren't cut-out for a start-up life, but an 20-something not so much.
If you've got the coding and personal skills, don't worry about it. They will respect you for what you can do and no one will care that you have Real Life after hours. Hell, they might even respect you more for it. This isn't a team of dufus jocks; these are intelligent analytical people. They understand that in ten years they'll be you. And its OK.
Startups have LT 30 people. It is called something else with more ... "waste of money" comes to mind.
If you can't make a profit with less than 30 people, get a new idea.
I've worked at a number of startup - most were NOT profitable, but a few were from the 2nd employee. Guess which ones are still around? A hint ... not the ones that were not profitable with more than 30 people.
I'm in a startup now - we've had 3 people working for 3 yrs on a few products and finally got something that makes money. We are adding people - 6 more this month.
Scaling up with people to make a profit ... doesn't seem to smart unless you want 99.999% of the company owned by the VCs.
OTOH, I'm not a billionaire, so what do I knwo?
Even if long hours are called for, I assume it is flex hours?
During the mega crunch times at the start-up I was at, I'd come home and eat dinner with the family and play with the kid. After they went to bed, I'd sometimes work from home, or even go back in to the office if necessary. Question is how much sleep do you need? I do ok with 6.5 to 7.5.
If you're really really concerned about it, after they've made you the offer you could tell them that you are super excited and interested, but that you have this one concern and want to know what their expectations are, and what common understanding you might be able to work out.
Marc
-- PGP keyID: 0x4C95994D
Using ac posts now to 'stick up for yourself', K. S. Kyosuke? "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!", lmao.
I think we're all quite aware who is known for playing *that* game, APK.
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
Lol... Touche... ;)
Wait, does that make SIEMENS a start-up? ;)
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What surprises me about it is that they're still having the party even though they've got 300 employees. My experience watching startups in Silicon Valley over the last few decades is that the typical pattern is that somewhere between 100 and 200 employees, the company hires a professional HR department instead of doing it informally, and the first thing the HR department does is shut down the beer party.
The purpose of the beer party isn't drinking beer. It's getting everybody to hang around and socialize and have unfocused discussions about what they're doing. It's especially valuable after the company reaches the first dozen or two people, because cross-organizational discussions tend to slow down by that point, and you desperately need them.
And if you're the old-timer joining the group? You really want to be at that beer party, because you'll have heard all those discussions a dozen times before at your previous companies, and you've got a lot to add. (On the other hand, you don't actually need to go to Burning Man with them, and going skiing depends on whether you're the skiing type; at one of my wife's previous startups, the 50-somethings were more likely to be skiers than the kids.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
It's less true now than 10 years ago, but it used to be you need some old-timers around because they were the only ones who knew Smalltalk, which was the fast way to prototype and build the GUI system, while the C++/Java/Whatever programmers were building the database backend. The GUI might later get rewritten in something else, but it was designed in Smalltalk (or Insert-favorite-LISP-dialect-here.)
My wife used to work for a company with a French president and an Italian engineering VP, and while very few people came in with hangovers, it was company policy that when the World Cup was happening, don't expect any of the European-background employees to be awake during California hours because they were up watching the games live.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Please don't !
Short answer:
I made a similar horrible mistake... and only now I'm regretting.
Long answer:
After my graduate studies, I joined to a SME, which was supposed to be in between start up and IPO (this is in far east in Asia). Though the company rolls financially, human resources are what I called "Sub-par" quality. Simply because they don't have any real competition, they think they are the best and ignores all other good ideas coming both internally or externally. In addition, there are no standard workflows to handle situations. So working in such environments is analogous to running around with your head on fire. Lately we have done few projects that are, by all means, text-book quality death marches. Finally, as everyone is pretty young (& not to forget, dumb!), it is pretty hard to get them on the same team spirit and work ethic... which is a major problem when it comes to running projects. And one final thought, it is highly unlikely you will learn anything much from peers... and most likely you will not have time to improve yourself because of above reasons.
Good luck !
I've worked in both the enterprise and startups before:
By enterprise standards it will be a complete cluster fuck.
Startups are a crap shoot. You could be out on the street looking for work in a year in an industry hostile to older workers. You could end up dipping into your retirement accounts and the kids' college funds. And God help you if you were dumb enough to work for stop options. 40's is about the time to stop gambling. Let the 20 to 30 somethings take the crapshoot as they have time to recover if they lose. Which is what I did and why I realize I can never do it again.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Company culture and the quality of the company product are the biggest factors in what your experience will be like. If there is a let's-pull-an-all-nighter attitude (i.e. just barely out of school) to solving problems and getting work done, and the product quality is poor, then in my experience the older programmers are the first to go when there is trouble. Of course it isn't really a surprise that the all-nighter crowd is commonly found working on a crappy product, since no one at these companies is ever going to develop a long term plan for quality.
If the environment is one where everyone is overwhelmed with work, and of course the product is poor, then as an older worker you probably won't want to work there much at all. You might be able to earn your bones and make some improvements, but there might be problems at the management level that you won't be able to fix.
None of the drinking and bonding stuff really matters that much if you've already done it for a few years. What really matters is what is happening while you work.
We don't need a DBA because we use a clustered NoSQL data store in the cloud that the CTO built.
Don't put a bear on the road where it doe not belong! ( a Dutch saying )
At my first startup, we hired a few guys like you. I learned from them, and I ended hanging with them more then the young crew. The thing is: we knew we needed these guys and had respect/awe for their experience and abilities. Did you feel that? (And now I'm an old guy like you.) If you're up to it, then just effing do it. But you will miss time with your family. This is, frankly, why I'm hanging at a mid-size x-startup for a while. I like my wife and kids. I didn't see them for most of 3 years at startup number 2.
You're not going to out party these guys, and they don't expect you to. Instead, you will bring life experience balancing a career in software with family, which I guarantee they'll be asking you questions about. Most of them are working to be like you with a family and kids they want to go home to.
As for the start-up side, make sure you and your employer have clearly understood work expectations. You don't want to be the bottle-neck on a critical release cycle because of family commitments, so sharing your schedule and setting fair expectations on when you can work is important. That doesn't make you ineligible for a start-up job, it just means that like the Tahoe trip you need to make sure the plans are known beforehand.
Hope this helps,
--- Need web hosting?
Didn't Siemens assist with STUXNET? They're innovating AND losing money, they're most of the way there. Maybe it is their second youth.
Much of the other advice here is pretty much spot-on.
I think the industry is different now, than it was in the 1990's. In terms of startup culture. But I do see a couple of examples where it's totally off the rails.
Anyway - if they're "late phase", truly, and if they're HIRING, this means either that they have a competitor that they're trying to out-hype, or they're trying to grow the company to make it look like a more "serious" player. This is also known as "prepping for a sale" - and the new owners (who will buy in the next year or two) - will have no qualms at all about imposing mass-layoffs, radical culture changes (oh noes, we have to wear SHOES in the office now?), relocations, and etc. All that bad stuff. If you have the stomach for that, and if you're good at what you do - enough to make yourself indispensible to the new owners, then by all means, catch that wave and surf it for all you're worth. As the kids say: you only live once!
However, if you do not distinguish yourself there, (ie. work the 16 hour days) - there's a chance you'll be on "that list", when it comes time to cut staff. Especially because you'll be a recent hire, and have much less severance "cost" for them.
Don't ever go into a startup thinking that you're going to get rich off of stock options. If it happens, it's a wonderful thing. But the stars have to be just right - - and I think that has not been the case since 2001 for any company other than maybe FB back in the 2006-2007 time-frame.
I'm 42, and I joined a startup as the third employee and senior engineer back in January. Still there 3 months later, and enjoying it. I was hired for my server-side (and general) experience, which is also a product of how long I've been in the industry... which I guess is therefore a product of my age. Of-course we all need to make an effort to take part, but I'd say that trying to "fit in" culturally would be a mistake. Any company who hired you should already understand the mix of experience and ages they really need to fuel their success. That said, you will no-doubt *feel* the need to fit in but, in your forties, I'd say it's time you should really be asking "What do I want and need from this, and what can I offer?" rather than just "Can I fit in?" Risk being "different", be who you are and, before long, the younger folks will no-doubt appreciate what you bring to this (frat) party - lol. You may be concerned that you have nothing unique to offer but, if you speak out where you see gaps and issues you understand, your experience will really come into its own. That is no-doubt why they hired you, and that's how you'll "fit in". And if any of those weekend road trips are deemed "mandatory", just roll your eyes. I do. You will never see 100% eye-to-eye with everyone there. Enjoy the ways in which you do and ignore the ways in which you don't.
you get payed to do work not to go clubbing.
Why do you even give a fuck?
If you're over 40, and they over 30, you are all old for programmers. The new blood is coming in at early twenties. When I started out almost 20 years ago, I was working with a 50-something year old, and it was a great experience for me.
I'm 69 and stilll working in software development.
Your role is to be the experienced older head. To mentor the youngsters, to encourage good standards in documentation, design, coding and testing. You can be the one who tries outt the new technologies and evaluates them, the one who knows what is going to bite them before it sinks its teeth.
Most imp;ortantly, when marketing says that they need 6 months' work doen in 6 weeks, you have to be the one that says 'Your bad planning is not my emergency'.
Just *be* the older (and wiser?) head in the company. As for out of office activities, if your children are old enough, take them along; they will love the paint-balling and kart-racing, and your co-workers will spoi them rotten.
I get half-heartedly invited to some of the after-work gatherings, but I'm sure it's more because they feel pressure not to leave anyone out than because they really want me to go.
So, can't speak for your situation obviously, but, having just exited my 20s myself and been in tech startup land...any "half-hearted"-ness you feel could be just as much us young 'uns feeling awkward because we aren't sure you want to hang with us. Maybe you're actually a curmudgeon and no fun (not that you sound this way from your post!)...but your co-workers actually may be sensitive to the idea that you "must have better things to do" than hang out with soon-to-be drunk 20yos. E.g., if you have a family, people may not want to feel like they're pressuring you to choose between family and your coworkers. Or maybe you've declined a couple times in the past because of other commitments, and people feel like they're intruding when they ask you (you might be super courteous, but signals can easily be confused...especially by the young & inexperienced).
YMMV, but, personally, I've always found it fun to knock back beers with older colleagues--it can be a lot of fun to swap scuttlebutt with someone who has been around the block a bit more. And I bet a bunch of your younger coworkers feel the same way.
If you are one of those kinds who easily blend with younger people then it's fine but you don't have to be one like that if you are not already that otherwise it's going to be an disaster.
I don't work in the Valley, so the assumption that the odd ones disappear for a couple weeks in late August isn't built into companies in the East Coast. It's what I lead with when recruiters call, and it's amazing how quickly I'm not a "good fit for the culture".
My current job, I made it very clear that was my one non negotiable, and they were fine with it. But I passed on a number of offers from other companies where I couldn't get that concession.
So yeah, cultural fit is a really, really important thing. I'm 37, and a place like that sounds like heaven. But I'm also a year-round volunteer for Burning Man...
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
I am so embarrassed for them.
Assuming I don't lose my dentures and my hip doesn't give out I'm sure I'll be able to come up with some right after my daily afternoon nap.
If you can still remember the question, that is.
Please login to access my lawn
...if you are joining at this point (300 people???) you are an employee. Not a founder, not a low badge number... you may as well be going to work for some megacompany.
Maybe you'll get some nice options, but you are way late to this party.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
As you already told you r the oldest guy there with family, people always thinks you differently or at least they can understand family related excuses. There is no need to do things like every1 do. At last what are your priorities? You love work, do it. You love family join them, you don't want party, dont get hanged. I have seen some nerds, who also don't like partying though they are young.
Don't think @ that. Just concentrate on your life.
I am 42 and have been working in the web/internet/ecommerce realm and have done a little bit of everything over the last 19 years (I think). I look back at the earlier years and my first several jobs often required 50-60 hr weeks and 24/7 support. I'd say a start up is fine, as long as you get in with a higher position with some 'real' opportunities for personal gain. I look back at my 20's or early 30's and I really worked hard long hours... and I would really love to have them back. The employer always dangling the carrot... and every project is THE MOST epic and important project ever... My advice is to do what is most important to you and do not undersell your own experience. By this point, I would believe you have been through literally hundreds of projects and have given so much time to your employer. Perhaps the startup is looking to leverage your experience... allow you to lead and flourish and that may be worth it. If they are just looking to fill hours of 'resource' for project work, it may not be for you.
I'm in a similar role now. I got hired for a very small experience set that's absolutely irrelevant to the product. However, I took the opportunity to become a mentor for the young guys. It's worked very well. I've been given a VP title so that people will do what I tell them, an assortment of random "engineers" (systems engineers, human factors, technical writer, our resident physicist and the graphic artist...) and get to inject my guys into projects where they're useful. Now, I do quite a bit to protect my rice bowl; every project manager I interfere with gets the "I'm here to keep management off your back" sort of uncle role, every project my guys work on gets a report of their positive impact, showing how the product was improved (over the competition's) by their presence, and we also temporarily absorb bodies who lose their desk but we want to keep. It's a happy niche for a grey-bearded polymath, but it's a political high-wire since my group is, on paper, a cost center.
Watch your stapler!
"we are hungry for experienced people who have seen the pitfalls and mistakes that can be made and give us guidance."
Wow, where do you work?, because from my point of view, that sounds like a wonderful company to work for.
Because my experience as an old guy (47) programmer in a start up, has unfortunately been totally different. I really like/liked working for start-ups and I've worked at a few over the years, but not as the "old guy" so to speak. I've only once experienced old guy at a new start-up and it was a truly awful experience. The worst by far I've ever suffered in 30 years of employment, which has left me with post traumatic stress and depression and frankly fear of what I will face going into another company. I've been left feeling, is this what I will face again in another company? and I've stayed off work for 6 months now, because I cannot face the thought of even risking going back into another situation so very bad.
You see I had to deal with a team leader who was less experienced than I was and a CTO who was very intelligent, but also less experienced. I wasn't in competition with either of them, but they were with me and as the older guy, I couldn't speak of experience of pitfalls and mistakes, like you say.
I couldn't open my mouth without the team leader jumping to shut me up, because it undermined his insecure position. What made his insecure position even worse was the CTO's very evident intelligence had also made him incredibly arrogant about it and as a result he was in competition with everything people said that deviated from his point of view. Yet the guy had never worked in industry, so he made business mistake after mistake, but I dare not speak about anything that needed to be improved. I couldn't suggest anything.
Almost all suggestions I tried had only two outcomes in the CTO's point of view. Either what I said was obvious in his assertion, or it was wrong and on the few occasions I said something that they both accepted had to be done, the passive aggressive team lead was on my back because making any suggestion undermined his position and authority in the eye's of the CTO and board of directors. It was a minefield. Even worse the CTO treated every suggestion like a point of competition to bring up multiple times to challenge it every time trying to prove his view. And while I tried so hard to not make any mistake, if I made the slightest mistake in judgement about anything, in their view, my god, it was awful for weeks where it was used multiple times against me.
Opening my mouth was like walking in a minefield. I dare not speak. The stress of working there was truly awful and yet I suffered it for a year because I thought this was to be my life from now on in any company, because now I was seen as the "old guy". I have been left wondering is this what being the old guy in a company is really like?. Being seen as experienced around insecure people more senior than you, who feel threatened by someone with experience is a truly awful experience.
And its hard for me to admit it, but for a while, I was even suicidal at the thought of, is this what life is now going to be like being the old guy?.
So you can imagine, I've read every comment on here with great interest, looking for answers and a way forward for my life.
Anon (for obvious reasons).
http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2006-11-26/napping-your-way-to-the-top
So back in the day, my first job out of college sounds a lot like what you're getting into. Most of us were young single guys that worked like mad and drank harder. However, we did have a couple "Senior" workers (over 40s, one mid 50s) that didn't really hang out with us. However, when the rubber hit the road and we were problem solving, it's kind of a universal language of nerds.
We worked together fine, and valued their experience. At the end of the day, they were going home to their wives, and we were hitting happy hour. There were clearly different values there, but we got along fine in the office.
Any other cliches we've missed that are impossible to apply to everyone who's a 40-something programmer?
Here's one:
The life expectancy of humans was about 30 years not so long ago. Really us 40-somethings are suppose to be dead.
Dude, nobody cares.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
I'm a programmer in my late 50s, and a few jobs ago I joined a company of about 300 people (I was employee 310) when I was about 45. I focused on getting my work done while at the office. I'd head home in time for dinner each evening, and would then clock in a few hours extra either early AM, late evening, and/or weekends. At the time, my kids were 3-10 over the 5 years I was there.
I skipped nearly all the social stuff, but I was hardly the only married with kids person there, either, so I wasn't the only one skipping most social stuff.
It worked out fine. A couple of people joked that you could set your watch by when I was out the door (within 5 minutes of 6 PM each day), but I got my work done, got promotions, and I'd have to say it all worked out pretty well.
eat a dick
I worked at a tech startup, late stage also, as a 20-something programmer in the mid-2000s -- in the heart of Silicon Valley. My coworkers' ages ranged from 20 to 55. I have to admit that I really liked and looked up to my older coworkers, who always seemed to have previously encountered any quandaries or difficulties I ran across. So if I was coding up something in C, if I had some question about the internal APIs that I couldn't figure out from the docs, I'd ask the older guys, and they'd usually have a good explanation.
Healthy tech startups WILL have older men (and women, too; let's not forget them). You need the sobering force of experience combined with a healthy dose of cynicism and/or realism. I say this at the ripe old age of 28. I think age and gender diversity contributes significantly to a startup's chances of success, especially if the people who are in the minorities (it sounds like you'll be a minority due to your age) are given an equal voice in the choice of social activities, decision making for the business, etc.
Also, it may be because I was never into the "frat party" type scene to begin with, but I really enjoyed doing stuff like bike riding and eating out with the older guys. Our group of 8-10 people would bike along the levies of the bay; our group had a nice mix of ages from 25 to 50, two women, and people from 5 different countries. We simply chose activities that worked for everyone, and fun was had all around.
On the other hand, if you think the people you're prospectively going to be working with are going to exclude you from their activities, or try to pressure you into doing activities you don't want to do, you should think twice about joining them. It all depends on how in-tune to workplace social issues they are.
Just being hired to program or design doesn't mean you're going to still be programming or designing the same feature/chunk of software for more than a year or two at a time.
...and remember, sometimes, "Go home, go home" (consider the Muppet characters) is the answer.
In my mid-forties, I worked for about two years with a former Baby Bell (now eaten). We were a startup division, meant to be their entry in the long-distance sweepstakes. Management *very* frequently was running on the the apparent idea that you write all this stuff the way they do in the movies, and I heard "whatever it takes" *FAR* too fucking often. And it wasn't my manager, or even my director, it was upper management. I swore I'd never do that again, the week I broke 70 hours; my dba said the same thing the week he broke 80.
After about a year of this, my late wife made semi-serious jokes about suing the company for alienation of affection. Consider your family.
But we were just pikers. Anderson Consulting (now Accenture) treats their folks like consumables/disposable. One young guy - a lot of them, this was their first job out of college, and we had a *LOT* of them - on week did, and I kid you not, he told me 119 hours in one week. They had him in a motel down the road.... He was working for a different, and better, consulting company a year later.
That's crazy. You'll be vastly more productive if you go home and get a night's sleep, and DON'T THINK about work - your subconscious will do a better job of it that way.
Oh, and for the young fools who think this is the way things should be... my "normal" day was 9.5 - 10 hours/day (not counting lunch) - I did that crazy bunch of hours after the architecture team gave a Pronouncement that everyone had to get their prototype makefile modified so that they could do the nightly rebuild of everything, and when I asked where they were going to get the resources for that, they said they'd find it. Now, some teams were building manually, and some with shell scripts, and...so this was a good idea. But from their prototype?. A week later, all our managers got a letter wanting their senior tech person for a week to do it. This was the end of October. The second week in January, I stood up in the every morning meeting, and announced that I had validated their build.
I was the *very* *first* person to get it working. Experience *does* count, kiddies and CEOs, and you get what you pay for.
Oh, and the summer before I left, a friend who's a degreed praticing psychologist said it was her professional opinion that I was that close to clinical burnout... so, seriously, watch yourself, and keep open the option of saying goodbye.
mark
Working and partying are two different things. Of course partying brings in people together faster than anything else, it is not the yard stick to measure the cultural fit. It is more of a fun and forget thingee. The real work culture often constitutes of camaraderie, steping in when it is needed, defying the hierarchy, be a bit crazy to forego the fear of not being right, unflinching attitutde in iterating, surfing over the constant state of flux and ... oh yes i think i am feeling home means a truly cultural fit now.
What's really horrible is if you're older (late 30s, 40s), and don't have kids. Then you don't fit in anywhere. The 20-somethings who drink and party all the time won't socialize much with you, and you can't stand being around people your own age because all they do is talk about their kids, which you can't relate to in any way. You might end up hanging around the 60-something set, since they're old enough that their kids are all becoming parents themselves, so they don't really talk about their kids too much, though they might occasionally mention their grandkids.
I took a job as a software engineering manager at a small company that had an apple product. The founder of the company was having his first taste of financial success as some product was selling. But there were the distractions I wasn't really expecting. The company wide breaks to smoke huge joints, the company wide trips to the Med for coffee, and then the trips to peace park to play with frisbees. Around five in the afternoon, I would be wrapping up to pick up my daughter in daycare, and the owner would start whining about the fact I had a life also, and wanted me to stay and keep working into the evening. After we shipped the big product, the owner had no further need for me, took credit for my work, and tossed me aside. I don't work for companies in Berkeley anymore, or Marin County for that matter. I have always been about the successful completion of the projects, but no making the job my entire life and personal validation. Namaste
If you have gotten this far in the process, they probably also know that you won't be a perfect cultural fit. But if they have any brains they value the experience you have and the perspective that will bring to the team.
keep 'em in the dark, feed 'em shit, then can 'em;-\
I don't work at a startup, but have been in parties with beer at several different companies; nobody got drunk. You can have a beer (or three, depending on the time) and don't get drunk.
There is very little in common between software development and company development.
Yup, and "age" has nothing to do with either, experience does. If you work as a programmer, then as you age you should get better. But not because you are older, but because you are more experienced. I am an old guy (mid-fifties) and on my fifth startup. One was a clear success, the current one has been partially successful, and the other three were complete failures. I learned much more from the failures. The first was when I was when I was thirty, and I have worked at startups ever since. My situation is different in a number of ways: I was on the founding team every time, and my wife is more of a workaholic than me, so I am under no pressure on that. The biggest risk with a startup is usually financial, but if this company already has 300 employees, they either have plenty of funding or solid revenues. Your gray hair can be a significant asset to a startup. Investors like to see some adult supervision, so you should try to take on the role of the wise old veteran when you meet with them. Don't worry about the "social activities". If you pull your weight at work, the twenty-somethings aren't going to care if you go snowboarding with them.
Somewhere, someone gave start-up money. They did this for business reasons. Assuming you get an offer, examine your risk-taking abilities together with your wife, look at where you will be if they don't succeed, and consider what it would be like if you decline the opportunity. Just make sure that you can handle stress. Here is a plus+ your resume update will make you a more interesting candidate if the opportunity falls through. I was 62 and took my decision, I wont say what I did then.
Every situation is different.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
This is a conversation you need to be having with your employer & even with your potential coworkers. Far better to have an idea how it might work out before you jump ship.
I'm Software Development Manager for a small team at a "startup" and it's clear to me that it really is a position for younger people without any family obligations. I'm one of maybe 2 members that have children, a lot of the other employees have no issues working 12 hours a day and weekends. Having already done that when I was younger I'm realizing that it is almost never worth it. There's always a carrot on a stick...
Assuming I don't lose my dentures and my hip doesn't give out I'm sure I'll be able to come up with some right after my daily afternoon nap.
- 43-year-old programmer
Pull yourself together.
Dude, you are just past being a kid ! In fact, you are the age be my kid... 8-)
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Those didn't exist at my first few jobs; smokers could still smoke in the office back then :-(. But the one place I worked in the early 90s which had smokers, I'd usually join them outside for a smoke break and just stand upwind, because the break-and-socialization was an important part of the job.
Bill Stewart
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