You've Got Male: Amazon's Growth Impacting Seattle Dating Scene

reifman (786887) writes "San Francisco's gender imbalance is so bad that a startup recently proposed flying women in from New York City for dates. But, if you're a straight male thinking of moving to Seattle to work in technology, think again. Seattle's gender ratio is even more imbalanced and it's about to get much worse for men. Amazon is building out enough space to employ 5% of the city population and its workforce is 75 percent male. By the end of 2014, Seattle will have 130 single men for every 100 single women."

Comments

As in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gay and lesbian?

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Brazzers.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

que?

Re:Well...

[daremonai]

This: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/brazzers

No, I don't quite get the relevance, either.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a porn site.

Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[AutodidactLabrat]

Tell me ladies, are you not very attractive, given to big glasses and serious introspection?
COME TO SILICON VALLEY, learn useless coding techniques, give out buggy code and ask the nerdiest soon-to-be-billionaire to help you grow in the profession.
After the divorce, you won't ever have to work again!

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[Darinbob]

No, it's more like work long hours with your partner to create a dual income family and still be unable to afford a decent house close to work. Occasionally you will meet someone who has a friend who knows someone who made enough money to retire early.

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[Anonymous Coward]

The odds are good but the goods are odd.

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[guises]

Amazon employees are not soon-to-be-billionaires.

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[lysium]

Hey, now that sounds just like New York City. Which is why I now live in Philadelphia.

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[SandWyrm]

Bingo. In the Bay Area I saw senior guys working for great companies, who could only afford a tiny house or apartment (with the wife working too), and one kid. Loved my Bay Area tech jobs, but it's impossible to have a real life there. Left the Bay and headed back to the Midwest for more pay, a huge house, and 3 kids. All of which is doable on one income.

Re:Sounds like a Marketing opportunity ladies!

[philip.paradis]

Whoosh.

But the real question is..

[DoofusOfDeath]

Will it have 13 men per 10 women? 26 men per 20 women?

Will it even have... 30% more men than women???

Re:But the real question is..

[harvestsun]

1,300,000,000 men to every 1,000,000,000 women!
That's three hundred million men!
BIG NUMBERS BETTER.

Re:But the real question is..

[immaterial]

1.3 men for every woman. Of course, the women see through this - the extra 0.3 he's claiming is typical male exaggeration.

Re:But the real question is..

[Anonymous Coward]

Mail Enhancement...

Re:But the real question is..

[cusco]

I don't think the numbers are quite as bad as it looks at first glance. I don't think it's really 13 men actively seeking those 10 women, more like 11. There's a large gay population that doesn't compete for female attention, to start with. There is also a very large H1B contingent, which is more interested in getting the attention of a woman in India or the Philippines.

Re:But the real question is..

[maharvey]

What, like MIME?

Re:But the real question is..

[RCL]

No, it will have 1.3 men per one woman. Roughly one man and one Javascript programmer per each woman.

Re:But the real question is..

[obarthelemy]

No gay women ?

Re:But the real question is..

[macson_g]

+1 Funny

Re:But the real question is..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the numbers are quite as bad as it looks at first glance. I don't think it's really 13 men actively seeking those 10 women, more like 11. There's a large gay population that doesn't compete for female attention, to start with.

Yeah, and I'm sure none of those females are lesbians, right?

So yeah, all 13 men might not be seeking women, but not all 10 women will be seeking men.

Re:But the real question is..

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, the H1Bs are also interested in dating the local women. They only want to marry someone from their home country.

Re:But the real question is..

[jeffrlamb]

document.getElementById("Comment 47014239").value = "+1 Funny";

Re:But the real question is..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think the numbers are quite as bad as it looks at first glance. I don't think it's really 13 men actively seeking those 10 women, more like 11. There's a large gay population that doesn't compete for female attention, to start with. There is also a very large H1B contingent, which is more interested in getting the attention of a woman in India or the Philippines.

Lesbians are people too, making your correction an overcorrection.

Re:But the real question is..

[augahyde]

According to this article, there are roughly twice as many gay men than there are lesbians. Regardless, the argument of homosexuals skewing the results is nearly baseless. The number of homosexuals in the US is about 3.4% so that for every 100 people, less than four would be homosexual. Granted San Francisco has a higher homosexual population per capita, but I am not sure that there are more homosexuals applying for jobs with Amazon.

Re:But the real question is..

[DoofusOfDeath]

+1 Funny

Uh... who's going to tell @macson_g that that's not how modding works?

Re:But the real question is..

[philip.paradis]

I wouldn't exactly call that enhancement, unless you enjoy the sadomasochistic aspects of MIME. If you haven't written software to parse raw SMTP messages, you may not understand.

Happily Married

[Anonymous Coward]

I am certainly glad to have at least gotten out of one rat race. Good luck out their guys. At least those jobs will pay enough so that you can travel to place that still have single women.

Re:Happily Married

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, until she decides she wants that eat pray love lifestyle at your expense.. Then you'll be in the divorced and destitute husband rat race.

you've got male

[OffTheLip]

If only there was a way to create a more equally gender balanced workforce...

Re:you've got male

[misexistentialist]

Give every programmer a secretary?

Re:you've got male

[fermion]

pretty much. Or hire more gay men. Or just accept the misogynistic nature of places like this in the northwest and provide furnished apartments.

Re:you've got male

[jellomizer]

It is harder then it seems.
There are a lot of Woman who just don't want to go into technology.
For many reasons.
1. Culturally: Woman should have jobs working directly with people, Men should have jobs avoiding people.

2. Geeky Culture: A lot of it is very male centrist, the idea of going to technology means you will need to interact with a culture many do not find appealing.

3. Catch 22: Woman do not want to go into technology because their isn't enough women in technology.

4. Peer pressure: If a woman shows an interest going to technology, their friends will try to dissuade them.

Re:you've got male

[tylikcat]

Like, say, men who make random generalizations about women?

Re:you've got male

[jythie]

Difficult yes, but it would be a solution to issues like this.

Re:you've got male

[benzapp]

It is 2014. It is not 1974. The whole tabula rasa myth is a proven lie. The whole "politically correct protected class is a social construct and is oppressed due to evil white men" is a lie. We have vast genetic studies across the world that disprove all of this.

Women are not interested in technology, period. As with any natural law, there are exceptions. In this case, they are very few. The reason is simple: the intelligence and creative drive that lends itself to technology and art evolved in humans as male display of genetic fitness. Just as the peacock has feathers, and songbirds sing their songs, it is our raw intelligence that is the best predictor of deleterious genetic load. Yes, the evil geneticists can predict the deleterious genetic load of animals based upon their mating displays. Human females, like virtually all female animals, have evolved to judge genetic fitness based upon whatever is the characteristic of a particular species or subspecies. Technology is such a display that simply does not interest the vast majority of females.

This is old news now. The first book to delve into it, before the human genome was decoded, came out in 2001. Behavioral genetics and evolutionary pscyhology have become such important fields, the former editor of the Science section of the New York Times just released a whole book on the subject last week.

Strangely, slashdot type geeks appear to be the least amenable to evolutionary theory. Sure, they like Dawkins. They think people who believe in God are stupid. They believe apes evolved into humans, but THEN. evolution stopped. And, all people became equal. Especially nerdy white guys with aspergers.

In my experience, this is due to the very naive hope that belief in this strange geek religion of human equality will get said geeks laid. It doesn't. It never has. It never will.

Re:you've got male

[Wycliffe]

Balancing workforces is an interesting problem. I would also like to see more balancing but in a different
area. It would be nice if you could balance jobs so that they are 50% desk and 50% physical instead of
a majority of jobs being either 100% sitting on your butt or 100% physically exhausting.
If you created jobs with varying attributes and varying responsibilities then it might also help issues like
gender issues as alot of gender biases in occupation come down to gender differences. Women are
more likely to chose a job where they interact and help people and are less likely to chose a job where
they stare at a screen all day with minimal interaction with other people.

Re:you've got male

[jeffmflanagan]

>Men should have jobs avoiding people.

I think you're projecting your social phobia onto other men. Many of us are fine dealing with people.

Re:you've got male

[pkinetics]

In other words: The odds are good that goods are odd...

Re:you've got male

[brit74]

The *should* in that original sentence is a bit excessive, but it's true that many men are fine working by themselves, while women tend to like working with other people -- have you ever noticed that female-dominated jobs tend to be jobs interacting with other people (e.g. nurse, teacher) and get people-related degrees (e.g. communications, psychology, sociology, education, ...)?

Re:you've got male

[Vintermann]

It is 2014. It is not 1974.

Funny you should say that, as the rate of female computer science graduates was apparently higher back then.

Whatever biology says, we see that the gender ratio varies greatly with time and place. Our biology hasn't changed much since the 70s, so we can at the very least get the gender ratio back to what it was then. Probably, our biology is flexible enough to support pretty much any gender ratio.

This means we can probably change things, if we really go for it. The question is should we? The issue is that a society can score high on gender egalitarianism, and high on opportunities for everyone, and yet that seems only to make people make more traditional choices when it comes to education. What does that mean?

I haven't got an answer. But this is a "should" question - so no naturalistic fallacy, please.

Re:you've got male

[Anonymous Coward]

Cut out the racist eugenics shit.

It's nothing a to do with genetics. There is a mathematically provable bias toward white males in a number of factors that dictate success. The world is run by white men. White men will pick people like them, which means other white men. It's an artifact of tribal culture and we should work to eliminate it because it's harmful.

Giving encouragement and incentives to everyone who's not a white man is a perfectly reasonable course of action. Do you know how you nullify a vector? You sum it with another vector pointed in the opposite direction.

Re:you've got male

[im_thatoneguy]

Oh the Irony of someone who claims to have strong social skills missing an obvious sociological/cultural argument, not a personal argument.

Re:you've got male

[russotto]

Funny you should say that, as the rate of female computer science graduates was apparently higher back then.

In 1974 the percentage of computer science graduates who were female was about 16.5%; slightly lower than today

Whatever biology says, we see that the gender ratio varies greatly with time and place. Our biology hasn't changed much since the 70s, so we can at the very least get the gender ratio back to what it was then. Probably, our biology is flexible enough to support pretty much any gender ratio.

With enough force we could make the gender ratio almost anything we want; we could simply set hard limits for men, for instance; we could ban men from the field entirely. That doesn't mean biology isn't involved.

I haven't got an answer. But this is a "should" question - so no naturalistic fallacy, please.

It's not an example of the naturalistic fallacy to argue that the gender ratios are the way they are because of human nature. It's also not the naturalistic fallacy to argue that if people are free to choose, they will choose according to their nature and so it is OK for the ratios to be what they are; the value here is freedom of choice, not adherence to nature.

Re:you've got male

[guises]

It might be a little excessive for people in general, but not for children.

Re:you've got male

[VortexCortex]

Cross Cultural Sex Differences put men as more introverted. The sex differences are larger in more egalitarian societies. Probably because men and women are freer to do what they like.

Perhaps do a split second of research before jumping to conclusions? Your subtle shaming of the introverted is equally as retarding as the phobia you're projecting.

Re:you've got male

[AmiMoJo]

Here is a study looking at the reasons that women don't go into tech jobs, even after studying in technical subjects: http://studyofwork.com/files/2...

There are a variety of reasons, but the ones you point to are not major ones. Well, maybe the lack of women in tech jobs, but only indirectly. It's mostly a mix of the same reasons men hack (including lack of interest), but quite a lot cite problems with sexism and an unfriendly working environment.

Also, citing "peer pressure" is rather patronising, don't you think?

Re:you've got male

[linuxrocks123]

It has nothing to do with a "strange geek religion of human equality". What it has to do with is that most evolutionary psychology is non-falsifiable. You can't use it to make predictions. Here's an example:

Observation: Women go for geek guys.
Reason: Humans evolved intelligence, because intelligence confers many advantages, so displays of intelligence attract mates.

Observation: Women don't go for geek guys.
Reason: Geek guys tend to work out less, because they're so obsessed with technology, and physical fitness is a good predictor of health, which is a good predictor of good genes, so women tend to prefer people who work out more. Also, intelligence has only recently become important to human success, so women haven't had enough time to evolve attraction based on intelligence.

Do you get it? Evolutionary psychology "sounds nice", but it's so soft that it very often (perhaps not always, but very often) falls on the "bullshit" side of the science/bullshit line. Many smart people on Slashdot can see that, so we don't buy into it.

It's not all bullshit. I remember reading one study in AP Psychology in high school where they actually did a bona fide scientific experiment related to evolutionary psychology, using it to make a hypothesis that they didn't know the truth of, and then testing it. I don't remember at all what it was, unfortunately, but I remember being impressed.

One other aspect that turns us off about evolutionary psychology is that a lot of (typically amateur ) proponents of it seem to promote the naturalistic fallacy: even if you're a dick because evolution made you that way, it doesn't mean you're not a dick.

Also, fuck beta.

Re:you've got male

[DiscountBorg(TM)]

Sure, and conversely, saying men and women 'should' behave a certain way 'because' biology might be a naturalistic fallacy, if it contained no other premise.

Not to mention that the poster ranting about 'tabula rasa' doesn't seem to grasp that he's cherry picking and making a straw man, and the argument is far from over. Wake me up in a few hundred years when we have a sizable amount of human brains fully mapped and modeled from both genders. At the present all we have is some very interesting correlations, and outside of the brain we can't even agree on how sex hormones affect human behavior, let alone how biology fully interacts with socialization. We're in uncharted territory all around, and egalitarian behavior on this widespread a scale is a very, very NEW thing. Give that a couple hundred years as well and see what happens.

Re:you've got male

[Yakasha]

It is harder then it seems.
There are a lot of Woman who just don't want to go into technology.
For many reasons.

1. Culturally: Woman should have jobs working directly with people, Men should have jobs avoiding people.
2. Geeky Culture: A lot of it is very male centrist, the idea of going to technology means you will need to interact with a culture many do not find appealing.
3. Catch 22: Woman do not want to go into technology because their isn't enough women in technology.
4. Peer pressure: If a woman shows an interest going to technology, their friends will try to dissuade them.

Like, say, men who make random generalizations about women?

Reason 5.
Sexism: +3 insightful
Calling out said sexism: -1 Off Topic.

Re:you've got male

[wxjones]

Umm. I'm a physicist and we have more women than CS. I suspect you guys are just assholes.

Re:you've got male

[Jmc23]

Why?

All so some introverted geeks don't have to go out in public to meet and interact with women?

Re:you've got male

[Cederic]

I'm intrigued that the feminists aren't demanding that Amazon employ more women to do a low paid physically demanding and boring job.

Guess they don't want equality after all.

Re:you've got male

[Linzer]

You know, with this little jab you probably hit the nail on the head (that must hurt, btw). One thing is the intrinsic properties of a given trade, and how they play with sex-dependent preferences, and another is the group culture that builds up within a trade. That very much depends on history, and... the gender ratio of that field, to begin with.

Re:you've got male

[Shadow of Eternity]

Let me ask you a really simple question: Why is it that when anyone else intends to join a new group they are expected to assimilate to that group's culture UNLESS they are a woman? Why do we expect men to alter their behavioral norms and culture to whatever women deem acceptable rather than the other way around? Why are women so infantilized and robbed of personal agency that they're not expected to be actors at all, but merely static pawns for everything else to rotate around?

In short, why do we blame men when women don't enter engineering, but completely ignore the fact that women staggeringly outweigh men in terms of overall college graduates? Why do we blame men for women being a small percentage of engineers, but not blame women for men being as little as less than 1/3rd of college graduates in the first place?

Re:you've got male

[ganjadude]

quiet racist

Re:you've got male

[AmiMoJo]

Let me ask you a really simple question: Why is it that when anyone else intends to join a new group they are expected to assimilate to that group's culture UNLESS they are a woman?

That isn't the case anywhere I have ever been. Can you point to specific examples that are backed up by law, or are you saying that a few anecdotes about bad people is evidence of a systemic problem?

Re:you've got male

[lucien86]

The solution is to genetically engineer and breed a new type of women that are attracted to geeks and ('god-damn-it') even nerds....
(Or in my case men too,....) ....We could even make them pretty too., and intelligent enough so that we don't want to strangle them after the first week.
Haven't got time to work on it now, still working on getting that pig flying.... :D

Presumption

[HeckRuler]

So.... just to throw this out there. Why the presumption that Amazon's new hires will be 75% male?

Re:Presumption

[NotDrWho]

Why the presumption that Amazon's new hires will be 75% male?

Well, about 85% of CS grads today are male. But if it makes you feel better, they could hire more women for the packing floor.

Re:Presumption

[Em Adespoton]

So.... just to throw this out there. Why the presumption that Amazon's new hires will be 75% male?

Because most women wouldn't put up with the working environment?

That's the real issue, even beyond women being conditioned (naturally or socially) to not value this kind of activity -- women tend to place more value on working environment.

As a result, you get places like NYC having a huge gender imbalance the other direction (good social scene, good food, etc.) -- actually, most urban centers tend to gender imbalance slightly to the feminine side -- and centers that are focused on manual labor or IT tend to gender imbalance to the masculine side.

One odd bit is that I thought these imbalances usually leveled out at around 20% -- so an extra 10% beyond the norm could result in interesting dynamics (my guess is that it'll result in more married men with underpaid wives working for Amazon).

Re:Presumption

[Anonymous Coward]

You assume that the majority of the additional 12,000 employees will tech people. I think it would be safe to say that quite a large number of them will be working with different aspects of the company.

Re:Presumption

[Wycliffe]

my guess is that it'll result in more married men with underpaid wives working for Amazon.

Luckily IT is a profession where you can usually afford to have only a single household income so my guess is
alot of wives would choose to not work vs taking a low paying job just to have a job.

Re:Presumption

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the warehouse? Lots of women in those jobs [eyeroll]

Re:Presumption

[Em Adespoton]

my guess is that it'll result in more married men with underpaid wives working for Amazon.

Luckily IT is a profession where you can usually afford to have only a single household income so my guess is
alot of wives would choose to not work vs taking a low paying job just to have a job.

So we're really talking about the onset of a population boom here....

Re:Presumption

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it is not so much that men place more value on working environment but that a man who decided he didn't want to work in such an environment and chose to stay at home and depend on his wife's income would be considered a bum.

Re:Presumption

[jbmartin6]

You're assuming that the bulk of the new hires would be CS grads.

Re:Presumption

[painandgreed]

Why the presumption that Amazon's new hires will be 75% male?

Well, about 85% of CS grads today are male. But if it makes you feel better, they could hire more women for the packing floor.

What makes you think that new hires will be CS grads or packers? Amazon hires a great deal of buyers, marketers, project managers, facilitators, coordinators, designers, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if their normal business type people far outweigh their tech people as they are dealing with a huge number of other businesses all over the world before anything hits a web page. Of course, I've also heard that Amazon doesn't like to hire women. Then again, Amazon really doesn't like anybody. Word from my friends that work for Amazon is that the average length of employment with them is 18 months before you'll leave for someplace better or be booted out. Not only that, but the time when Amazon made people millionaires was years ago in the first .com boom. Now, it's just another large business like any other.

H1Bs?

[FuegoFuerte]

I suspect this isn't so bad for American men as the OP lets on. Consider the effect of H1Bs on these numbers... I live in Seattle; all the large tech companies here (and even a lot of the smaller ones) hire a disproportionate number of H1B holders, most from India. Most Indians aren't after American women, they either come here with a wife already, or their family back in India arranges a marriage, they fly home for a few weeks and come back married.

I know plenty of single girls, and I've never had a problem finding a date. It does require leaving work at work and going out to places where other single people congregate, and it helps to not be a total jackass, but I don't think we're really anywhere near as unbalanced as this would lead one to believe.

Re:H1Bs?

[Em Adespoton]

I suspect this isn't so bad for American men as the OP lets on. Consider the effect of H1Bs on these numbers... I live in Seattle; all the large tech companies here (and even a lot of the smaller ones) hire a disproportionate number of H1B holders, most from India. Most Indians aren't after American women, they either come here with a wife already, or their family back in India arranges a marriage, they fly home for a few weeks and come back married.

I know plenty of single girls, and I've never had a problem finding a date. It does require leaving work at work and going out to places where other single people congregate, and it helps to not be a total jackass, but I don't think we're really anywhere near as unbalanced as this would lead one to believe.

I think you missed the point -- the ratio is projected to get around 30% worse in the near future. Same number of women, 30% more jackasses.

Re:H1Bs?

[jratcliffe]

I think you missed the point -- the ratio is projected to get around 30% worse in the near future. Same number of women, 30% more jackasses.

Actually, it's you who missed the point:

"By the end of 2014, Reifman projects, there will be 130 single men in Seattle for every 100 single women — up from a ratio of 119 single men to 100 single women in April 2010."

So, it's not "Same number of women, 30% more jackasses," it's "Same number of women, 9% more jackasses."

Re:H1Bs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question - Where are you finding date-able women in Seattle? I moved here 2 years ago and have not met many. It could be that our definition of date-able differs a bit.

Re:H1Bs?

[FuegoFuerte]

And if half of that 9% are H1Bs, it's really "9% more jackasses, of which 4.5% are potentially serious competition."

Re:H1Bs?

[Em Adespoton]

And if half of that 9% are H1Bs, it's really "9% more jackasses, of which 4.5% are potentially serious competition."

Let's assume that those 4.5% aren't all single.

The headline then becomes "Women have to deal with a 3% increase in jackasses in the Seattle singles scene."

Sounds about right.

Re:H1Bs?

[FuegoFuerte]

It's likely that it does... by datable I mean "interested in an actual relationship (not just sex), low drama, low maintenance, mature and smart enough to hold an intelligent conversation and not just prattle on about what so-and-so said on facebook." Those type of girls can be found anywhere... usually behind the counter at the local Starbucks, or working at the grocery store, or wherever. It takes time to get to know them, and you have to show that you actually care about them and are somehow different from the other 200 guys trying to get their attention - usually that involves talking to them and not just telling them they're hot.

Re:H1Bs?

[bloodhawk]

Bullshit. H1B's are a tiny fraction of the workforce even in Seattle. I think many people confuse immigrants and people with foreign appearances as H1B workers.

Re:H1Bs?

[Anonymous Coward]

India has changed. A sexual revolution has been underway in India for the last 30 years or so thanks to globalization. Besides, the H1B Indians in the US was mostly introverted engineers who cannot get a date and therefore are not representative of India. Like any other nation, most Indians are extroverted since the introversion/extroversion ratio is mostly innate/genetic and not race or culture dependent as far as I know.

First the international cable channels and then the Internet have been exposing Indians to western culture day in and day out for the last two decades. Arranged marriage is now very rare among the new generation of Indians who grew up on facebook and sexting. Dating, casual sex, and multiple sexual partners are very common among the urban youth even among the low income families.
Even in the 20th century urban India, arranged marriage did not exist, at least in the backward sense that is conveniently assumed by westerners (i.e. parents arranging your partner for you without your consent). Instead boy would meet girl in a cafe or their house and discuss their likes and dislikes, maybe even have sex, and only then decide to marry. The problem is that due to sex being quite a dirty word in public India and not existing in public discourse, there is very little statistics avaibale on premarital sex among Indians over the last and this century.

Imagine even if only the introverted nerds and geeks from America visited India. What impression of the America will Indians have? :) It is this same problem that you Americans face about your impression of India that you gather from your limited interactions with the Indians in America who are mostly engineers and therefore mostly introverted.

Re:H1Bs?

[cthulhu11]

When I found myself in the pool about ten years ago, it was tough. Google "Seattle freeze". I don't know if it's Scandanavian reticence or what, but time and again I saw deliberate walls built by women. Online was the only way to get traction, and even then only with eHarmony, whose fees and entry questionnaire seem to weed out the window-shoppers. If one is 6'0" things open up a bit, or if one works for MSFT, which is a closed ecosystem.

Re:H1Bs?

[Anonymous Coward]

If those 4.5% aren't all single, neither are their girlfriends.

Unless you want to claim they are gay, you need to subtract the same number on both sides.

San Francisco is for homos

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's OK.

Re:San Francisco is for homos

[Anonymous Coward]

It also affect Silicon Valley...HIV...

Flying in women from NY

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow a startup has started a business around the worlds oldest profession.

Re:Flying in women from NY

[kthreadd]

Sorry to crush your dreams but prostitution is not dating.

Re:Flying in women from NY

[Anonymous Coward]

Prostitution is just dating, with results.

Re:Flying in women from NY

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the same "experience".

Re:Flying in women from NY

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to crush your dreams but prostitution is not dating.

nope, it's way better than dating!

easy answer

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.mailorderbrides.com/

Re:easy answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that they work at Amazon, they are obviously used to mail ordering nearly everything else in their lives!

Re:easy answer

[Richy_T]

Are they Amazon Prime eligible?

Which one?

[stkris]

As a woman I think this must be great news! But as a foreigner - should I aim for Seattle or San Fransisco?

Re:Which one?

[DoofusOfDeath]

As a woman I think this must be great news! But as a foreigner - should I aim for Seattle or San Fransisco?

If you're a foreigner, I'd recommend treating the world as your oyster. Personally, I can vouch for the rogueish good looks, sense of humour, and alcohol tolerance of Irish men.

But if you're in a pinch, I guess there are a few expats in Seattle and San Francisco.

Re:Which one?

[boristdog]

My wife changed from teaching school to becoming a network engineer about 8 years ago. She went from making 40% of my income to making 95% of it in the past 8 years time, and that's with about 30% increase in my income in that time.

She is treated like a professional and doesn't have to deal with the parents of her clients. Yes, there are a lot of clueless "Durr, she's a girl!" nerds that she has to deal with, but she says they are easier to handle than her former students.

So if you are a woman and you are AT ALL interested in technology, get into the tech field anywhere. We're in Austin but it is lucrative no matter where you go. And you will have your pick of well-employed male suitors if you so desire.

Re:Which one?

[khr]

should I aim for Seattle or San Fransisco?

I don't know much about San Fransisco, but I do know the weather in Seattle, while uncomfortably dry is less so than most other cities... If I had to pick between them, I'd probably go for whichever gets more annual rainfall.

Re:Which one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither. Both ways, you end up married to an American male. Have you even watched the news for the past 10 years? They are the worst in the world. When they're not raping women, they're oppressing them. Seriously, add jezebel.com to your daily reading list and open your eyes.

Re:Which one?

[jeffmflanagan]

> Personally, I can vouch for the rogueish good looks, sense of humour, and alcohol tolerance of Irish men.

Don't doubt this guy, he knows Irish men, but his spelling tells me it's not Irish-Americans he's talking about. I'll vouch for the Irish-Americans.

Re:Which one?

[pauljlucas]

San Francisco's housing costs are insane. Pick Seattle unless you've got at least a $100K income.

Re:Which one?

[gangien]

As a single male living around seattle. Seattle obviously.

- San Fran/cali drivers are are assholes
- In seattle, you can live in downtown and walk everywhere, or still have a decent commute in the suburbs. outside of downtown, Seattle has plenty of parking. In Downtown Seattle, it's sitll better than San Fran.
- Housing prices. Seattle's not cheap, but it's that high compared to other larger metropolitan areas.
- San Fran gets better points on weather.

Basically, Seattle > San Fran.
QED.

Re:Which one?

[VortexCortex]

As a woman I think this must be great news! But as a foreigner - should I aim for Seattle or San Fransisco?

If you want the best selection of American jobs you'll need to go to India.

Re:Which one?

[Anonymous Coward]

wut ?

Seattle is grey and rainy, the only time its dry is for a very brief stint in summer. San Francisco like most of California doesnt really ever get rain.

Re:Which one?

[grrrl]

for skiing, Seattle

Re:Which one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Housing costs in Seattle aren't as bad, but they're close. If you want access to more of the West Coast and better weather go to San Francisco.

Alaska

[Anonymous Coward]

They still have Alaska beat.

Not bad comparatively...

[invisibletank]

I'll take that ratio any day over my time in the Navy, where the ratio on a ship was about 50:1 male to female.

Re:Not bad comparatively...

[rock56501]

Reminds me of the comment on the PBS documentary called "Carrier," one of the Sailors said the ratio on the ship was "Eight hot dogs to one bun!"

Re:Not bad comparatively...

[formfeed]

I'll take that ratio any day over my time in the Navy, where the ratio on a ship was about 50:1 male to female.

... And that 1 wasn't really female, just happened to be named Jessie.

Relationship-quality male ratio sorely lacking

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever date one of those guys at Amazon? All work and no play.

Re:Relationship-quality male ratio sorely lacking

[symbolset]

This. What does it matter how many men there are if none have a spare hour?

Re:Relationship-quality male ratio sorely lacking

[Anonymous Coward]

Ain't necessarily a bad thing.

I work at Amazon, and it's true, 60 hours is about average, and I once did a 112 hour week. On the flipside, I make a ton of money, live in a killer apartment a mile from the center of downtown, am cool, fuck well, and don't have the time to be all up in someone's business even if I wanted to.

I can't vouch for the fucking well part, but the rest is the norm for any natives, depending on your definition of cool. For expats ... I hate to say this, and look, there are tons of exceptions, but the people that come from other countries (mostly India and China, which, pulling numbers out of my ass based on extremely thick accents is about 50-75% of the people I see day-to-day) can have some really fucked-up ideas about relationships when compared to what Americans would consider the norm. I really wish I didn't have to include this caveat, but I've heard and seen enough that I think it's something people should be aware of. They don't give off the psycho vibe like you'd expect because, in their culture, I guess it's normal. They didn't grow up being shunned for being an asshole, so they don't have the tics that would normally give you a weird feeling about someone. I know. It's a shit thing to say that unfairly paints probably 90% of the people I'm describing. Sorry. Really, I am. But on a constructive note, if you feel like you're being unjustly judged because you know how to not be a psycho that doesn't understand the concept of a woman with agency, maybe take your countrymen aside and show them that it ain't so bad, and if they're from China maybe introduce them to a dentist. Do these guys a solid, I'd help my countrymen acclimate if I were an immigrant. Seriously. I can't imagine why a single expat with dental insurance making 100k+ would not just go get those brown, crooked, gunk-filled teeth fixed up and instantly double their dating game, probably bringing them to the point where outdated and misogynistic customs aren't necessary to get and keep a partner.

Fuck, while I'm at it, I'll strongly recommend any expats reading this work on getting rid of your accent. It's not that hard, just fake our accent, forever. Yeah. I know, you feel like a fag. I felt stupid when I spoke French with a French accent too, but I did it. Whatever. Do you have any idea how much it'll help you out? A light accent is sexy. A thick accent someone has to strain to understand, even though you're obviously really smart, will make people see you as an "other", and knocks 20 points off your perceived IQ.

Well. Now I've lost track of my point. Whatever. It all needed saying.

yey I'm gay

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to move there!! HURRAY! Hey, desperate men do all kinds of things. ;p

We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Queue the legion of people who will insist that Seattle companies be forced to hire less-qualified people who happen to be women.

If this bothers you: stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart. Don't ask them their favorite princess, ask them what they want to be when they grow up.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart. Don't ask them their favorite princess, ask them what they want to be when they grow up.

These suggestions are un-American to the point of being treasonous.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

My older daughter wants to be a princess when she grows up. My attempt to steer her into mathematics is so far a failure. I still have hope for my younger daughter. I've taken away her dolls and replaced them with legos and erector sets. She cries about it and says she hates me. I guess she just doesn't understand I'm liberating her from the Patriarchy.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

The problem is all those damn Disney movies parents use as babysitters.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Nutria]

stop telling little girls that they're pretty

A man my age telling girls that they're pretty is a quick way to get myself labeled a perv.

Besides, if a girl's not pretty, I wouldn't say she's pretty.

And I wouldn't know she's smart w/o spending some time with her, and that's just as creepy.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[epyT-R]

Stop blaming men for the lack of equal outcome. Stop telling men what is 'proper' to look for in a mate. Stop blaming them as the default problem when women aren't seen in the same numbers in a given context. In fact, stop lying about men, period. If women are intrinsically equal, they don't NEED help as they can fend for themselves.. Most women aren't interested in technology for itself, only what it can do for them, so even with incentives, you're not going to find a 50/50 split. This is ok as men and women are as different psychologically as they are biologically.

You know, maybe you should start respecting their diversity and their right to choose other paths. I tire of this leftist equal-opportunity-must-beget-equal-outcome-else-discrimination fallacy.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[epyT-R]

and your statement is doubleplus ungood. Report to the ministry of love for processing, comrade.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

When I need a digital babysitter for my 2 year old, I use WALL-E. I'm trying to set the seeds for nerdness early.

(When you have a toddler and a newborn, sometimes you just have to put on a movie for a few minutes. It's called survival.)

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't praise kids for being smart, it becomes a major part of their identity and whenever some situation comes along that they fail to resolve it can mess them up and they will avoid even attempting things that can result in them feeling not smart. Praise them for working hard, etc.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[jythie]

Well, we already have a hiring and promotion process in corporate culture that favors less qualified people who happen to be men.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[tylikcat]

And perhaps treat the women in tech as actual human beings? Admittedly, I've had a great many pretty awesome male coworkers, but I've also run into a fair bit of crap, and it does get exhausting and demoralizing over time. Neurobio is just so relaxing by comparison.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[tysonedwards]

Perfect solution...

Tell little boys that they're pretty, and that they are a perfect little prince...

Hold boys beauty pageants and have them televised on the local PBS affiliates.

Ostracize them for wanting to play outside or participate in sports.

Tell them that one day if they try hard enough they too can marry someone rich and live happily ever after.

While we are at it, we need to get Disney to have a movie with a "prince" as the main character... They've already shown that they care about maintaining appropriate diversity with their last few films focusing on a black princess, and a ginger princess, and a chinese princess, and a native american princess, and an arab princess ... Where is the boy who gets his own "don't talk to strangers, unless they are hot!" storybook ending?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

There's nothing wrong with using movies to keep kids occupied, the problem is those stupid Disney movies that fill their heads with BS about being princesses. Pixar movies are a good choice. There's no princess bullshit in those.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[epyT-R]

Actually, nowadays, the corporate culture is full of feminist trained men who purposely choose women over men for things like promotions to prove how much of a feminist they are. Hardly an improvement if the goal is reward for relevant success/attributes. However, if the goal is to build a gynocracy, well, then this is exactly what needs to happen.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[MacTO]

Try to find strong or independent "princesses" that can serve as positive role models and encourage her to express her interests in constructive and creative ways.

This doesn't mean that you should give in to her desires. You should be taking away toys that create destructive images of womanhood (impossible body image, subservience to the patriarchy, etc.). On the other hand, forcing a child to be what you expect of them is equally destructive.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[khr]

My older daughter wants to be a princess when she grows up

Well good luck changing that... I only know one princess and she's a mean, nasty horrible woman.

Actually, she's not a princess anymore, not after India's Independence did away with royalty. She was born a princess of some royal house in Rajasthan just before that. Now she's horribly bitter that she isn't "someone" anymore...

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the boy who gets his own "don't talk to strangers, unless they are hot!" storybook ending?

That would be the big fuzzball from Beauty and the Beast. Talk to a hag and get cursed, date a pretty girl and get cured.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[serviscope_minor]

Queue the legion of people who will insist that Seattle companies be forced to hire less-qualified people who happen to be women.

Why would they queue? This is about America, not England.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[epyT-R]

Alright, but that means no more privilege for women either:

1. No more chattel, alimony, maternity leave, her body/right/choice is his responsibility etc. Women have to live without the privilege men are currently compelled to give them in order for men to truly see them as equals.

2. No more subjecting men to coquettish behavior in order to get them to clean up after her mess (I've seen this one go down a lot at work, especially when she knows she's attractive). Don't tell me that women are toothless victims in the work place. It's sexual manipulation all the same. Conversely, we could let up on the draconian 'anti harrassment' policies and let both sexes feel more comfortable acting like human beings at work. The latter is my preference, but it requires that women quit playing the crocodile tear victim act when propositioned by a man they don't like/find 'creepy', and expecting society (mainly other men) to white knight for her (get him fired, kick the crap out of him etc).

3. No more male space vs female space. No more 'invade-male-space-and-make-it-female-for-great-social-justice' either. If most of the employees are male, deal with it instead of calling it out as 'oppression', just as you expect men to accept female space. They are different and, in many ways, incompatible. If a women is going into a male dominated field, she should expect not to find female space all that often.. Same thing if a man goes into nursing. Both sexes need to make their choices and live with the positive and negative outcomes. Neither one should be obligated to shield the other from this.

4. No more hair trigger, life ruining, over the top responses to mere accusations of misconduct. No more 'dear colleague' letters from politicians pushing this. In fact, it's time for the state to stop passing legislation that picks the winners and losers solely on the attributes that aren't supposed to matter.

Once that's in place, I'd be more open to viewing the sexes as equal, and feel more comfortable treating women's work output and interaction as that of a human being instead of a goddess just to avoid getting fired. I don't know if you're reasonable or not, but a lot of the women I have run across at work do think of themselves as above reproach, and play the victim card when they're challenged. Society's hypocritical status quo encourages it en masse.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Nutria]

Invent a DNA-manipulating machine, jump in the (original) Way Back Machine *with* the DNA-manipulating machine. Travel back to the origin of class Mammalia, and fiddle with all the bits of DNA that cause males to be on average relatively bigger and relatively more aggressive, while females are on average relatively smaller and relatively more nurturing.

Of course, then we wouldn't exist (the changes would be so great and so ancient that Mammalia would be *radically* different), but that's ok, because we're evil planet-rapers anyway.

Seriously, though: find me a culture, any culture, where the males are feminized, and I'll show you a not very successful culture.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, look! An angry MRA asshole!
Tell us more about how hard life is when you're born on third base.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, my son has the issue of his sister taking his Legos when she should be playing with her Duplos.

She hardly ever eats them anymore so I don't worry too much. She also made a Duplo tower taller than she was at 2.5yrs. She stopped when she couldn't reach to put any more on there even on tip-toe.

Then again, my son also drew his first circuit diagram before he turned 5. Wouldn't let me take it to work however, until he had built it. (I know it is just a simple LED circuit, but I am proud of him for it anyway.)

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[tylikcat]

And OMG, you might be in danger of getting pushed halfway back to *second*. Eesh.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[tlambert]

Don't praise kids for being smart, it becomes a major part of their identity and whenever some situation comes along that they fail to resolve it can mess them up and they will avoid even attempting things that can result in them feeling not smart. Praise them for working hard, etc.

Don't praise kids for working hard, it becomes a major part of their identity and whenever some situation comes along that they fail to resolve it can mess them up and they will avoid even attempting things that can result in them feeling they are not working hard enough. You know, like when they find out that "work hard, and the rewards will follow" is a lie told to get them to work hard with the promise of a future reward which never materializes.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Uberbah]

Nobody starts out on third base but the children of the wealthy. And there are tens of millions of poor men, even poor white men, that are trapped in crushing generational poverty right along with poor women.

Doesn't get as much press, though. Or as much demagoguery.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

People often work very hard to put their offspring on third base. No one should be entitled the the fruit of another's labor.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Come to think of it; in "Aladdin" the protagonist 'simple boy' gets to marry the princess... actually, that doesn't sound like such an exception (in movies) now does it ? Then again, can't quite come up with another title that follows the same scenario... hmmm, really need some sleep here...

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Arker]

"Admittedly, I've had a great many pretty awesome male coworkers, but I've also run into a fair bit of crap, and it does get exhausting and demoralizing over time."

It does, but it's not like that is happening because of your genital configuration. I bet you have plenty of male coworkers that feel the exact same way.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[epyT-R]

So instead of addressing my points, you resort to ad hominem. gotcha.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

My 8 year-old daughter has soft cuddly toys, dolls, wears a lot of pink clothes, loves rock-climbing (and is competing this week-end) and will do a Spartan Kids race later this year.

She is unstoppable. In pink.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

In my culture women are allowed to be beautiful, intelligent, docile, aggresive, submissive and the boss. They can be any combination they like. The root cause of "western" problems is your constant either/or attitude. There are a million options for your young lady. You might just be strangling the next Tolkien.

My boss has a hello kitty diary,and sqieals when faced with "girly" things and she also knows how to kick your ass and run a large university.

Ps: in my city it's 2.3 ladies per guy. :)

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[schnell]

The problem is all those damn Disney movies parents use as babysitters.

Not necessarily. When we had our first girl, my wife and I deliberately kept her away from all things Disney and princess-y to avoid just this situation.

Guess what happened? By age two, she was already trying to wear mommy's high heels and had firmly decided her future vocation would be fairy ballerina - all without ever having seen a Disney/Barbie/whatever TV show, not having any dress-up dolls, or any of the other stereotypical toys that I had always assumed were what caused the gender role identification in young girls. It turns out that some little girls just love "girly" things because it's baked into their DNA somewhere.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Syliva ( 4 years old ) is going to be a princess-knight cause she wants to fight the dragons and wear pretty dresses to tea parties.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[DoofusOfDeath]

Queue the legion of people who will insist that Seattle companies be forced to hire less-qualified people who happen to be women.

If this bothers you: stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart. Don't ask them their favorite princess, ask them what they want to be when they grow up.

So now we're making up an imaginary race of creatures in which most women don't want to be pretty and don't care about looking attractive to men?

If we're no longer talking about humans, then there's a lot of things we might do differently.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[DoofusOfDeath]

I've taken away her dolls and replaced them with legos and erector sets.

That seems questionable. The last think you want her interested in anytime soon is erections.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[pslytely psycho]

" They've already shown that they care about maintaining appropriate diversity with their last few films focusing on a black princess, and a ginger princess, and a chinese princess, and a native american princess, and an arab princess ... "

All of which are the whitest minorities ever.
None of them, IMHO, looks ethnic beyond the slightest nod to their ethnicity. I hope this link works, a jpeg of the majority of their princesses in a single frame.

http://ladygeekgirl.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/disney-princesses.jpg

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart.

Ugh... You tell the smart ones they are pretty, and the pretty ones they are smart. Then you get them in bed and never call them again. Dawson's Creek 101.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Wall-e is full of the same disposable-male and princess-on-a-pedestal propaganda as all the other Disney films. Wall-e, an ugly, working class robot gets a glimpse of a sleek, attractive, female robot. He then abandons his life and proceeds to throw himself into one dangerous situation after another. Not because he cares about her mission (he doesn't know what it is), but because her life and goals are more valuable than his. She, of course, views Wall-e with indifference. It is not until he single-handedly does her job for her AND saves the current social order (in which he is at the bottom and she is at the top) that she is willing to acknowledge that he might have some value.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[PPH]

less-qualified people who happen to be women.

And that's why there isn't a problem for many guys. With an attitude like that*, there's a whole class of men that have just removed themselves from the dating pool. The rest of us thank you.

*Very common in the IT and engineering fields.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[praxis]

stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart.

Telling children that they're smart negatively effects their desire to learn. http://www.psychologytoday.com...

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Boeing: Be a moron. Get hired. Marry boss' daughter. Lifetime job security.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with submissive princesses either. Submission is not weakness, and should be neither encouraged nor discouraged. Strong and independent is not better.

Here's a novel idea. Why not let the girl decide for herself who she wants to be?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[maharvey]

THIS.

The USA has gone insane.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[maharvey]

If I had points I'd mod this up five times.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody starts out on third base but the children of the wealthy. And there are tens of millions of poor men, even poor white men, that are trapped in crushing generational poverty right along with poor women.

Doesn't get as much press, though. Or as much demagoguery.

I forget: is third base kissing, or heavy petting?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Hyenas.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

I can ignore the rest of your arguement as an opinion without claiming whether I agree or disagree but I can not ignore maternity leave as privilege for women. I can entirely support maternity leave as a benifit to the child but it is not a privilege for women.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Number of CEO women versus number of CEO men in American mulitinational corporations mean anything to you

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. I just made a post cautioning women thinking of moving here that a lot of those 130 guys have fucked-up attitudes toward women because they're from places where misogyny is the norm. Really glad you posted this. Us Americans have a long way to go too, and I regretted not adding that.

Can't wait to see the norms in another generation though. We're on the right track. And I think that we've hit a point in prosperity and equality where, unless something comes along and throws a monkey-wrench in the works, we'll be impressed with our future selves.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Same situation here. Fortunately, Lego has a pink and purple princess line of sets that my daughter loves. Best of both worlds. We'll see what happens when she grows up.

I think there are more positions available for engineers than princesses, but she'll have to discover that for herself.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[GrumblyStuff]

And I wouldn't know she's smart w/o spending some time with her, and that's just as creepy.

Okay, well, then the easy solution is to merely watch her from afar- Wait, no. Man, this is harder than I thought.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[AmiMoJo]

1. No more chattel, alimony, maternity leave, her body/right/choice is his responsibility etc.

How about instead of trying to make things worse for everyone you push for men to have the same rights? In actual fact men do have more or less the same rights in my country, except for maternity leave where I think men should get more, to bring the UP to the level of women.

Conversely, we could let up on the draconian 'anti harrassment' policies and let both sexes feel more comfortable acting like human beings at work.

Strangely only misogynists seem to have a problem with this.

The latter is my preference, but it requires that women quit playing the crocodile tear victim act when propositioned by a man

I think you will find that most women don't like be propositioned, especially at work. Maybe if you got to know them socially and went on a few dates... But propositioning tends not to be welcome, by either sex. If gay guys kept propositioning you at work how would you feel? Oh, I expect you should man up and shrug it off, or be flattered as them admiring your ass.

No more hair trigger, life ruining, over the top responses to mere accusations of misconduct.

Okay, as long as you agree not to assume all women are ticking time bombs waiting to sue you for harassment. And you stop harassing them with propositions.

Once that's in place, I'd be more open to viewing the sexes as equal, and feel more comfortable treating women's work output and interaction as that of a human being instead of a goddess just to avoid getting fired.

So you will only stop acting like a douchbag once everyone else does. Good luck with that.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[AmiMoJo]

So explain why there were more women in CS back in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Too short a time for evolutionary changes to DNA to be a factor. Maybe computers needed less physical strength and more nurturing to operate back then?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what happened? By age two, she was already trying to wear mommy's high heels and had firmly decided her future vocation would be fairy ballerina - all without ever having seen a Disney/Barbie/whatever TV show, not having any dress-up dolls, or any of the other stereotypical toys that I had always assumed were what caused the gender role identification in young girls. It turns out that some little girls just love "girly" things because it's baked into their DNA somewhere.

You really think that just because you never showed your daughter a Disney movie, gave her a Barbie doll, or let her watch gender stereotype-reinforcing TV shows, she couldn't possibly have picked up anything from anywhere else?

Kids don't just watch TV, they also watch the world, and they do so 24 hours a day (well, minus the time they're sleeping). Everything you do influences them. Everything that others do influences them. There's no "I wanna be a pretty princess" gene that's exclusive to girls; your attempts to shield your daughter(s) from societal influence have just been futile, and were always doomed to be futile.

I'm honestly a little surprised that with at least two kids, you've not realized this.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you have nephews or nieces? Friends with children? Kids who you see frequently?

If the idea of spending time with a child is creepy, you probably are creepy and just don't realize it.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[mu51c10rd]

I have only girls. I let them watch Disney movies, play with Barbies, and got them princess and fairy dressup stuff. What was the result? An 8 year old who is perfectly comfortable using a computer and now helping me assemble one. A 4 year old who loves to be active, and tries to take my smartphone apart to see how it works. Further, the older one excels at math, and the younger has already started reading. It is not "girly stereotypes" holding them back...

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Nutria]

So explain why there were more women in CS back in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

What in the hell does this have to do with what I wrote?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[ganjadude]

should it? i dont believe so

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Queue the legion of people who will insist that Seattle companies be forced to hire less-qualified people who happen to be women.

If this bothers you: stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart. Don't ask them their favorite princess, ask them what they want to be when they grow up.

So now we're making up an imaginary race of creatures in which most women don't want to be pretty and don't care about looking attractive to men?

If we're no longer talking about humans, then there's a lot of things we might do differently.

Right, because men don't want to be handsome and look attractive to women.

I love usernames which feign humility but turn out to be accurate.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

That's ridiculous. I am a woman and I also wanted to be a ballerina princess when I was that age and I grew up to design integration systems for a living. I write damn good code and was not in any way hampered in that pursuit by my liking for pinky frilly girl things when I was 7.

My daughter loves frogs, mud and frilly dresses with flowers in her hair on occasions. She doesn't like princess stuff but she doesn't begrudge it to others. None of these things will have any bearing on whether she learns to write code eventually or whether it will be any good.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that there are other cultures where young girls do not want to be a fairy ballerina, right? That alone suggests that its highly cultural why girls like "girly" things

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

Exactly. You're not going to find any Indian or Chinese girls who want to be fairy ballerinas.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

So is submission OK for a man too? Or are you one of those Christian nutjobs who thinks wive should be subservient to their husbands?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Grishnakh]

What city is this?

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah who would have thunk it.
Choice between being put on a pedestal and served by a legion of adoring fans and working in a cube farm, and she picks being put on a pedestal and served by a legion of adoring fans.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

less-qualified people who happen to be women.

And that's why there isn't a problem for many guys. With an attitude like that*, there's a whole class of men that have just removed themselves from the dating pool. The rest of us thank you.

*Very common in the IT and engineering fields.

(I'm the OP)
Why would this mean there "isn't a problem"? If you need me to spell it out for you, we're missing out on all the inventions from women who should have gone into science! All that potential squandered because of careless words.

btw How could you tell I'm married? :-)

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[cmdrbuzz]

Totally agree, one of my younger sisters was /all/ about pink, princesses and fluffy girly things all the way when growing up.

She very recently graduated with her Masters degree as a Civil Engineer.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree equality is a 2 way street but society don't get offspring for free and placing the burden solely on women is unrealistic. Few mammalian species - and certainly none with young as vulnerable and unsuited to survival on their own as ours - do well when the mother is left to fend for herself and her child and the male doesn't contribute. Raising a child takes a lot of effort. If we want decent, healthy, happy children in our society who grow up and become productive there is a cost - the question is how much is all of society responsible for and how much falls on each parent. Mother as sole bread winner and sole carer is not going to fly.

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS! This this this this this!!!

-- a female who was praised for being smart

Re:We need to fix the root cause

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a 30-something woman with a computer science degree, which I did out of interest first and with a career in mind second. I used to play with Gentoo and admin Solaris machines; these days I'm hacking away with Javascript and PHP. * I *also* love girly things, like cosmetics and Tupperware parties and ballet and high tea. It's OK to be both!!

* Web dev work tends to be more parent-friendly. You want women in the IT workplace? Flexible hours. Added bonus - Dads get to see their children too, and you have a backup person who you usually only pay about 10 hours a week as 'extra dev time' ... who is there when the lead dev is off on holidays. Doubles as "hit-by-a-bus insurance". Win-win for everyone.

Well..

[cyberchondriac]

I suppose if you're a gay male that sounds like Utopia. Welcome to Seattle, the new San Francisco.
The Space Needle will take on new allegorical significance as a monument!

Re:Well..

[jasonla]

I understand that this was meant to be a joke, and I find it funny. But if only it worked that way. Sure it's a bunch of guys, but they're still mostly all straight, which does me no good. Might as well go live at Wellesley College.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a joke and you find it funny yet you feel the need to shit on it.

Congratulations, you're the asshole.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Seattle has already taken San Francisco's place as the gayest city in America. There is still a weird vibe in the tech industry that keeps things very straight on the surface, and gay tech workers in the closet. Of course, in the Seattle tech industry all sexual activity is in the closet because any mention of sex will get you fired from your job. Someone will feel "uncomfortable" if they learn that you have genitals.

Re:Well..

[jasonla]

Oh Hi Jeff.

Re:Well..

[painandgreed]

I suppose if you're a gay male that sounds like Utopia. Welcome to Seattle, the new San Francisco. The Space Needle will take on new allegorical significance as a monument!

Hey, George Takei is our guest of honor for the Pride Parade this year!

Even worse just outside Seattle...

[xfade551]

Everett, Tacoma-Lakewood-Puyallup, and Kitsap County have massive military populations (figure around 80-90% male for the military subpopulation). There's a tendency for the junior enlisted men to marry the local girls right out of high school, then they move away with their young wives on their next assignment. (These women often divorce their husbands when they find a place they like better than their hometown). ...And around 50% of the women left behind aren't worth dating.

Re:Even worse just outside Seattle...

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to go Paula, way to go!

Re:Even worse just outside Seattle...

[pr0fessor]

I grew up next to a military base and can confirm that and as a freshman in high school I could not get a date with any girls at my school because they were all dating soldiers. Instead their 19-22yr old wives were all very lonely... I once took a 22yr old soldier's wife to a school dance because, I knew he would be there with his 16yr old date.

still okay to move to Seattle to work in tech

[Anonymous Coward]

if you're a straight male thinking of moving to Seattle to work in technology, it's probably still okay for you to do that. If you are a straight male thinking of moving to Seattle to get a date, then maybe you should think again.

Amazon is a scapegoat

[bubbl07]

This is symptomatic of the gender inequality of their hires and hiring for this sector in general. Instead of "blaming" Amazon, we should insist that all tech companies (including Amazon) support more education amongst the underrepresented genders, races, etc.

It's in their best long-term interests, anyway, since working for Amazon (for example) is now less attractive because it's now... less attractive literally. At some point the increase collective pay they'd have to offer will be greater than the amount they could use to fund these sorts of initiatives.

Re:Amazon is a scapegoat

[Anonymous Coward]

Maintaining the gender inequality is a net benefit for a business, especially in high income workforces.

Think about it... If there is an even gender distribution, people who spend all of their days together socializing will inevitably form friendships. Single people who are defined by their work will then let those friendships develop into something more. And then those dynamics will continue into the workplace. Any fights, or breakups will cause workplace tension and can lead to a party ultimately being dismissed. And due to those friendships, larger groups of people will be upset when their friend is dismissed to keep their friend's ex around.

The concept of "underrepresented genders" is an HR dream come true.

Already mostly debunked...

[thatseattleguy]

The Seattle Times has already debunked this, pointing out that the author(*) of that original article coflated two data sets that used completely different methodologies for the "number of single men" metric and so cannot be compared. Not that that will make any difference; I sense this will have the same life of its own as the "chances of a woman getting married after 40 are worse than that of her getting killed by a terrorist" meme that went around a decade or so ago, because it provides a convenient external explanation for a wholly internal failure.
.

/tsg/

(*) Said author of the original debunked article also has the same user name as the submitter here - such a coincidence! I also note his last Slashdot submission was the also-debunked "OMG! Skydiver catches meteor falling on camera!" thing that was proven false a few days later. The Force is not strong with this one, fellow Jedi...

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[sexconker]

Mod article down BULLSHIT.

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[thatseattleguy]

More importantly, the above-referenced Times blog post points out that the gender imbalance in Seattle is nowhere near as bad as other cities that are tech hubs, like San Jose. Among the 50 largest metro areas in the US, Seattle apparently ranks at only 15th for predominance of males.
.

Noting, too: the original Reifman article makes the truly odd presumption that because Amazon's _current_ workforce is 75% male, that all new hires will necessarily follow this same 3-to-1 male-to-female gender ratio - something I very much doubt. A company growing as fast and expanding into new, diverse areas like Amazon is, is likely to see a greatly more gender-balanced workforce than it had in its early tech-dominated early days. Maybe the new hires will not be 1:1 male:female - but certainly not the 3:1 of the past.

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[jythie]

See this is where the summary should be updated to reflect this.

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[BitZtream]

Nice to also notice that he submits the same article 2 or more times over the course of a day or so, guess he takes advantage of finding the right editor to approve his rubbish.

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[thatseattleguy]

Submitter and article author is a "technology consultant". For him, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Even a thoroughly discredited submission polishes his resume as an Expert To Be Reckoned With.

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[jasonla]

Maybe he can't get a date because he's a creep? Please Google "Nice guys of OKCupid." Look at the women who actually commented on his post: http://webcache.googleusercont... It's the same error as always: correlation != causation. The guy isn't actually a techie, but a manager (overhead), who has no credentials whatsoever: http://resume.jeffreifman.com/

Re:Already mostly debunked...

[DoofusOfDeath]

I sense this will have the same life of its own as the "chances of a woman getting married after 40 are worse than that of her getting killed by a terrorist" meme that went around a decade or so ago,

So that's why so many women perked up when 9/11 happened!

New Amazon Logo

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory.
http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos...

This is just within the city limits, though

[WilliamGeorge]

Seattle proper is actually relatively small, and surrounded by dozens of smaller cities and towns. I would wager that the overall metro area has close to a 1:1 ratio, but that young, single men tend to move into the city to be close to work, especially before starting a family. Housing in the city is expensive, but more livable for someone in a 1-bedroom or studio apartment. Once you need more space than that, the suburbs are much more appealing.

Re:This is just within the city limits, though

[cbhacking]

Well, you've got Redmond and Bellevue, which are somewhat dominated by Microsoft (similar ratio to Amazon). In the south you've got Boeing, whose ratio I don't know but it could easily be even *worse*. Then, as another poster pointed out, there's a handful of military bases in the area, which are once again going to be mostly guys.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the ratio in King County as a whole is worse than in Seattle proper. Well, I would be just a little, but not *very* surprised.

Re:This is just within the city limits, though

[WilliamGeorge]

The ratio of children being born is roughly 50/50, though, as most other places in the world. Here in the US there isn't a lot of abortion based on gender yet (thank God!) so birth rates comes out pretty even.

What you could have, then, is people moving to the area for jobs. The military in particular is going to bring in a higher ratio of men than women, but they are probably not looking to do a ton of dating while in active duty... and they are moving in and out of the military bases around the area every year or two.

So the other major employers - MS, Amazon, Boeing: are they really bringing more men to the region than women? Maybe, but only a little bit I think. Anyone they bring in who is already married or in a committed relationship is likely bringing their partner / family too. And I know that with Boeing in particular a massive amount of the workforce is already from Seattle; they aren't trying to hire people from the other side of the country for mechanics positions, though some of that may happen in the upper echelons of engineers and managers.

So what I suspect is happening is a *small* influx of workers to the area, with a bit of a higher male:female ratio. There is also some movement of folks from around the greater metro area into the city as young working professionals, to be closer to their jobs. That may make an imbalance within the job hubs of Seattle, Everett, Redmond, and Bellevue... but what people are leaving out are the myriad of smaller cities around and between them. Do Kent, Renton, Auburn, Burien, Kirkland, Bothell, Woodinville, Lynnwood, Shoreline, Edmonds, Marysville, Federal Way, Fife, Puyallup and the many other towns all have more men than women as well? I doubt it. I bet if you look at the region as a whole you would have a 1.1:1 ratio or lower.

How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was cold emailed about a job position at Amazon about a month ago, but they would give almost no information about the compensation and benefits unless I actually applied to "the first selection round", other than it was located in Seattle. I had absolutely nothing to compare it to my current position. The person with whom I traded a few emails wouldn't even tell me what the number of vacation days were at the start of employment, nor even a general pay range. Given that I live in a much sunnier climate, and like my job, they certainly didn't do a good job of enticing me as a possible candidate.

Re:How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[Altus]

When the contacted me about a job in Seattle after I checked the box on their application that said I would not relocate I ignored the email. I got another one from the same recruiter a week later that was acting as though I were the rude one and that she had done me a favor by showing interest in hiring me for a totally undefined job in a location that I had no interest in moving to.

I have no idea why anybody works for them... they sure don't make the company seem appealing.

Re: How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't worked at Amazon but I keep reading about how horrible it is there...Not that Gawker is completely credible source.

Re:How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[pkinetics]

Sounds like a recruiting firm was hired for these and not internal HR. Recruiting firms are more interested in filling body counts and getting people to interview, and finally placed within the company.

Dunno... I'll like Seattle more when they get an NHL team.

Re: How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're used to the "Microsoft pace" (come in at 10, lunch from noon to 2, leave at 5) then Amazon is indeed hell.
For the rest of us it's just fine. I spent 5 years there. I know people who've been there for close to or over 10 years. They're doing fine

Re:How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers?

[painandgreed]

I have no idea why anybody works for them... they sure don't make the company seem appealing.

It's pretty much a stepping stone. People who have worked there tell me that the average length of employment is around 18 months before you'll leave for someplace better or be booted out in the toxic review process. Still, it's a job and you know you won't be there forever and will get experience out of it.

Mercer Girls

[MDMurphy]

If this is not debunked, then it's not a new issue for Seattle.

The Mercer Girls were an 1860s project of Asa Shinn Mercer, an American who lived in Seattle, who decided to "import" women to the Pacific Northwest to balance the gender ratio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

Which inspired the TV series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

Here Come the Brides

[rossdee]

The bluest skies you've ever seen are in Seattle
And the hills are green as green in Seattle

Am I the only one that remembers that 70's western comedy show?

Re:Here Come the Brides

[ausekilis]

On one hand, it's probably cheaper shipping to get those brides from Russia and China that it would be for those guys living in New York. On the other hand, they often don't put enough food and water in the crate for that two week voyage on the ship, to say nothing of the air (water) holes.

Re:Here Come the Brides

[tmjva]

Yes I remember the show, but I had to Google the string "seattle mail order wives tv show" and ignore all the Russian adverts to find it and remind myself of the Title.

0.0002% are H1B

[raymorris]

Considering that the number of H1Bs is limited to 0.0002% of the population, they might make a good scapegoat, but tthey make essentially zero impact on anything.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless all of them is in the same room. Then it gets quite crowded.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that the number of H1Bs is limited to 0.0002% of the population, they might make a good scapegoat, but tthey make essentially zero impact on anything.

It may be .0002% of the total US population, but it's not a uniform distribution across all states, cities, and companies.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[FuegoFuerte]

Unless they're all working for the same few companies... I worked at Microsoft for several years, and my group was easily 50% H1B workers, and probably closer to 60-70% in reality. So, when we're talking about local statistics and the local effect of companies hiring, we need to look at the local H1B population for relevance. H1Bs might make up a tiny percentage of the national population, but at the local level it's a very significant percentage, especially in Bellevue/Redmond/Kirkland and parts of Seattle.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Serenissima]

I have to agree. When I was there, it was easily 40% H1B workers in my department. Walking around the halls and cafes, I could see even more. I never actually sat down and counted anyone, but I would say that 40-50% of the people were H1Bs, easy.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was there, it was easily 40% H1B workers in my department. Walking around the halls and cafes, I could see even more.

How could you tell that someone is there on H1B simply by looking at them?
And have you thought about offering your services to the state of Arizona? I'm sure they'd be very interested in your unique abilities.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

Arizona already has this ability, they are just legally prevented from using it.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

most likely he is using the racist approach and judging based on appearance, so anyone that looks like they are from overseas origin are being H1B's, considering the information is freely available online, MS only applied for 12,000 H1B's in a 3 year period, that means the number of H1B's working there is going to be somewhere south of 10%.

Re:0.0002% are H1B

[Anonymous Coward]

and A quick search online says you are full of shit. unless MS have suddenly sacked sacked 10's of thousands of employees. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa...

It's even more dire than you might think

[Anonymous Coward]

Your typical engineer working for Amazon is educated, really smart, and eccentric (by the standards of most people). They are likely to have an IQ in the top 5% of the world population, and will be looking for partners who are also in the same league (so pretty much only about 5% of the available women in the area are in the running). So sure, there will be a massive influx of male engineers to the Seattle area. It's generally good news for smart girls, bad news for smart males, and of no importance to everyone else (neglecting gay folks). So the few eligible women who would be interesting to engineering types will simply have that many more engineers to choose from...

It was worse in college...

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a 4:1 ratio for the number of men to women...

But if you computed it by weight, it came out even.

Sensitivity training, here I come!

yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she want

[raymorris]

> If this bothers you: stop telling little girls that they're pretty, and instead tell them that they're smart. Don't ask them their favorite princess, ask them what they want to be when they grow up.

This! I asked my ex-wife's 17 year old daughter what she wanted to do for a living and they way she looked at me, it seems nobody had ever asked her that question before. She has no idea. My daughter, who is now one week old, will be able toanswer that question by the time she's five (and change her mind six times after that).

I've found the perfect solution

[sandbagger]

I gave up.

Look, masturbation's more efficient anyway.

Re:I've found the perfect solution

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like a real wanker.

Re:I've found the perfect solution

[benjfowler]

Works best that way. Women can smell desperation a mile away. Best way to improve your luck is to stop trying.

50% of san fran and seattle are gay

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think there will be very many problems statistically

I'm going to Surf City

[BenSchuarmer]

for obvious reasons

Re:yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she w

[sandbagger]

...and change her mind six times after that).

Well, you know what they say about a woman's perrogative. Wait. Stop throwing things at me. Ow. Ow. Ow.

sounds like an economic opportunity...

[Connie_Lingus]

...for smart business-orientated women to start-up the world's oldest profession in the Seattle area.

oh...Tinder's already covering that base.

nothing wrong with that

[slashmydots]

So it pushed ugly, unhealthy, and otherwise undesirable males out of the gene pool. Good! Have you seen what happens to the genetic disadvantages and diseases and average IQ in small, isolated communities? It's the same thing when it's 1:1. Imbalance in either direction ensures that adaptation and fitness improvements occur.

Re:nothing wrong with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. It is mostly one direction. Getting knocked up is alternative to being lonely for some!

Re:nothing wrong with that

[benjfowler]

In most country towns, "fitness" is either 1) holding your piss and holding your own in a fight; or 2) having the brains to up sticks and move somewhere civilized.

Pffft... That's not a bad ratio

[EmagGeek]

When I was going to Georgia Tech, I would have given anything for a 1.3:1 ratio.

Re:Pffft... That's not a bad ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

You had Agnes Scott nearby...

Why didn't you indulge?

Re:Pffft... That's not a bad ratio

[antdude]

IIRC, my college days in the mid (19)90s were 4:1 (more females to males). I am still single and a virgin! :(

C Language

[Anonymous Coward]

C is one pf the best programming language! Hotmail Login Signup and Android and iPhone Blog

this article is from 100 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when Seattle's #1 occupation was logging, there were many more men than women.

This is why Seattle's red-light district, Pioneer Square, is now a celebrated tourist attraction.

Seattle's male/female imbalance is what started the United Parcel Service, which got its start in Seattle as a bike messenger service relaying messages between hookers and johns.

Worked for me

[halfstop]

I lived in Seattle, had no problem dating women and even found one silly enough to marry me. Don't worry about it, if you're not a tool, you'll be fine.

Women will have to work.. double hard!

[MonsterMasher]

.
Dang, ladies..

      Time to put on those knee-pads .. there is a line of men for each of you every day.

I know you are women enough to shine!

Irrelevant

[Fredde87]

Its irrelevant, at least 30 of those men will be tech works and we all know that us nerds don't have girlfriends so that leaves 100 guys for a 100 women...

Re:yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she w

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck should a 17 year old be able to answer that?
When I was 17 I couldn't answer that question. I certainly couldn't have answered that I wanted to go and do a PhD in computer engineering, or that I wanted to move to Colorado.
In fact, when I was 22 I still couldn't have told you that.

English usage tip

[OglinTatas]

a lot of women = a number of human females greater than an arbitrary number larger than 2, depending on context

a lot of Woman = one human female with a big personality or big physical measurements of one sort or another, or both.

Re:English usage tip

[StripedCow]

I wouldn't call a woman with big feet "a lot of woman" :)

Re:English usage tip

[Jstlook]

Whatever you do, I'd recommend avoiding the topic of her feet in her vicinity. Or any other body part that seems slightly out of proportionality, for that matter.

Re:English usage tip

[heefeneet]

a lot of women = a number of human females greater than an arbitrary number larger than 2, depending on context

a lot of Woman = one human female with a big personality or big physical measurements of one sort or another, or both.

A whole lot of Woman = Rosie

Sausage Fest

[CanHasDIY]

By the end of 2014, Seattle will have 130 single men for every 100 single women.

Worst. Orgy. Ever.

Of all time.

Re:Sausage Fest

[VortexCortex]

I see you've never been to a dog park.

Worse Ratio than China

[CWCheese]

This is even worse than the situation in China where it's reported there are 122:100 men to women.
http://www.globalpost.com/disp...

Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

A company called Amazon has a mostly male work force.

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

A queen and the worker bees, although they are all female with actual bees. I propose cage fights and sting matches for the singles to prune out the unfit individuals.

Re:Irony

[DoofusOfDeath]

A queen and the worker bees, although they are all female with actual bees. I propose cage fights and sting matches for the singles to prune out the unfit individuals.

Well, yeah. Let's see you try finding office space for those huge Amazonian women!

Re:Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

That's OK, the real Amazon river basin has about 1.06 women for every man.

(captcha: arboreal)

Worst fate

[Anonymous Coward]

Working for Amazon and not being able to get a date. Can there be any worse fate for a young guy? I guess you could also have acne.

And those who work in Seattle might think about moving. Rent will soon grow even more outrageous. That's one reason why I left last August. Seattle traffic, already the 9th worst in the country, will only grow worse, particularly with 'traffic calming' ideologues doing their best to reduce the number of lanes and choke up streets. They did that to mine--another reason why I left. And tired of how their politicians waste money on mega-projects, the city's citizens just voted down a tax increase that would have kept the number of bus routes from being slashed.

The rest of America should listen. That giant sucking sound they hear to their NW is retail sales money leaving their community for Seattle.

Re:Worst fate

[Teresita]

And tired of how their politicians waste money on mega-projects, the city's citizens just voted down a tax increase that would have kept the number of bus routes from being slashed.

It wasn't Seattle. The thing was King County Prop 1, and Seattle voted for it by a wide margin, they just couldn't get the rest of us out in the hinterlands to sign on. So the mayor is whipping up an exact repeat, but its only city-wide. Folks there wanna pay more for their tabs, more power to 'em. Ain't democracy grand?

Re:Worst fate

[WillAffleckUW]

Seattle voted for Prop 1.

It's the whiny suburbs that didn't.

Oh, and that is not a great attitude to take into dates. My roommate tells me about these deathly dates she goes on where the guy is boring the heck out of her, and talking about stuff like this ranks way up there on the boring scale.

Re:yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she w

[pkinetics]

Over analyzing the idea.

There are 40 year olds who live in their parent's basements and have no idea what they will do.

There are 40 year olds who are very successful, who still don't know what they want to do.

Very few people know precisely what they want to do.

But by the time they are juniors in high school, they should have some set of skills that can help them move forward as opposed to "being a princess". That is a very limited position, with few available openings, and an excessive amount of competition.

and so the stereotypes abide...

[globaljustin]

not against women...the stereotypes about how "tech" work has to be autism-inducing, basement dewelling, spaghetti coding, geek competition

1. Culturally: Tech jobs, even coding, involves directly working with the people in your workplace. Even if you telecommute you still do tons of human interaction...furthermore, all tech is ultimately for the *human user*

2. Geeky Culture: "geek culture" has never been more popular among women, especially smart younger women who would be the logical next cadre of tech new hires. The problem is stereotypes and systemic dead weight...not 'geek culture' or women's access to it...also: more women gamers now than ever

3. Catch 22: Men who tend to make assumptions will tend to assume the wrong causes for women's behavior...especially men in tech who don't usually work with women

4. Peer pressure: Everything in our media tells women that if they want to get married they have to **look like a pornstar** and be permiscous but not "slutty" and find the right man before they turn 30...when a woman says she thinks she can have a career, party, look good AND have a family their friends will try to dissuade them.

get a clue...everyone...all techies....everywhere....talk to women about this...not just the opinionated ones...ask them how they feel and you'll seem I'm right

tech alienates women...it's a dorky version of a Country Club mentality

Re:and so the stereotypes abide...

[Anonymous Coward]

... and be permiscous but not ...

What's this being loose with permissions or perhaps you meant promiscuous?

Re:and so the stereotypes abide...

[Shadow of Eternity]

You're making the common mistake of thinking the current hipster driven fad for some of the superficial aspects of nerd culture is the same as the real deal being actually appealing.

It's not. Nerd culture is no more popular today than it ever has been, the difference is instead of openly harassing/bullying nerds just for being nerds people are inventing a straw boogeyman that lets them pretend to be a victim in order to justify their abuse. The only difference between today and twenty years ago is the slur used. Twenty years ago it was "nerd" itself. Today it's neckbeard.

whole China & India are like that

[peter303]

At least a 15% imbalance for 30 and younger after better family planning technology came along. I've heard of unrest in some of China's factories by bored young men. I dont know about India.

Re: whole China & India are like that

[Anonymous Coward]

Not trying to be mean or snarky but what's your point wrt to this silly article?

It does suck those countries are so sexist and patriarchal but hopefully they change over time being developing nations.

1,000 times concentration is still 0.2%

[raymorris]

Suppose one area had 1000X as many H1B as average. That area would have 0.2% H1B.

83% of people think they are smarter than average.
Which means that nearly half of the people who THINK they are smart are actually dumb. All of those people search for some expanation of why they didn't get hired. They are certainly smart enough, they think.

Re:1,000 times concentration is still 0.2%

[mattack2]

83% of people think they are smarter than average.
Which means that nearly half of the people who THINK they are smart are actually dumb.

I'm risking stepping in it, I realize.

Assuming that 83% number, that's 33% "too high"? ...and if you mean what I think you mean, half of that 33% really is smarter than average, and half isn't... on average (heh). So that would be 16.5%.

Basically, I don't see where you're getting "nearly half" in any of that... Unless that was a joke I'm missing (whoosh).

Re:1,000 times concentration is still 0.2%

[raymorris]

To get 33% too high, you're subtracting the 50% who might actually be above average. Then you're calculating that ANOTHER 16% are above average. In total, you have 66.5% above average. There's something on your shoe.

At most, 50% are above average, meaning at least 33% of the total wrongly believe they are above average. If 83 people think they are, and 33 of those are wrong, that's 40% who are wrong. So at least 40% of the people who think they are smarter than average aren't.

Research suggests it's actually higher. The more you know, then more you realize there are things you DON'T know, and the more you assume that other people probably know things. Therefore, people who are above average are more likely to rate themselves as below average. (Consider a college student walking past a calculus or physics class. If they haven't taken that class, they may rate themselves as below average. Meanwhile, the Occupy crowd thinks that 99% of people sit around smoking weed and living off their parents).

With that tendency included, about 50% of the people who think they are above average are actually below average.

So do what everybody else does

[Deadstick]

...produce a musical comedy.

Re:yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she w

[Anonymous Coward]

... as opposed to "being a princess". That is a very limited position, with few available openings, and an excessive amount of competition.

Actually, there's not a whole lot of competition, but the industry is so full of nepotism that there are only a handful of examples of princesses who weren't handed the position from a close relative.

Sexist

[Anonymous Coward]

The author is clearly sexist. Both Seattle and San Francisco are home to many gay males. Implying that the dating scene requires females is clearly a flawed analysis.

Re:Sexist

[Anonymous Coward]

"home to many gay males"

yeah apparently gay females live in nests or roam freely

Think of the coffee

[daveywest]

Poor baristas. Think of how desperately these guys are going to be flirting with the gal whipping up their grande latte.

you started college in your late 20s?

[raymorris]

> couldn't have answered that I wanted to go and do a PhD in computer engineering, or that I wanted to move to Colorado.
> In fact, when I was 22 I still couldn't have told you that.

I bet that at 17 you knew you wanted to go to college and study computers. That's what you wanted to do when you were 17 or so. Maybe later you decided exactly how MUCH college - a PhD. I doubt that at 17 you had no idea what direction you wanted to head. I say that because seventeen year olds with no plan whatsoever are more likely to end up with convictions than with PhDs.

Re: How does Amazon manage to attract job seekers

[Anonymous Coward]

That's good to know about the office environment. I'm guessing the warehouses are where the bad working conditions are.

Forget dating. Let me tell you about the restrooms

[Anonymous Coward]

Most architects build enough restroom stalls to match code, and they calculate based on a 50/50 gender distribution. So if 200 people work in a building floor and code requires one restroom stall per 50 people, at most buildings there will be two stalls in the men's room and two in the ladies'room.

But if the gender distribution isn't 50/50...

Sausage fest

[benjfowler]

Sounds like a bit of a sausage fest. Like (say), mining towns, where no self-respecting woman would live, bar fights start at a drop of a hat, and hookers come in on a fly-in-fly-out basis... And where most entertainment is paid-for.

Actually, I've been to Seattle, and it's not that bad at all, and quite a nice part of the world (apart from the weather). But still, you have to broaden your horizons if you want to find a mate...

Yikes, I live in Bellevue.

[Goat of Death]

Those ratios are terrible. No wonder I had to snatch up someone soon after they moved in from out of town. If we have sons, they're sure be getting the stick and twist living here.

Unfettered male competition = Pitcairn Island

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the Mutiny on the Bounty? Ever read the REAL story and wonder why most of the crew wanted to go with Bligh? So many that some were not loaded onto the dinghy but put ashore later? What was up with that? Fletcher Christian stopped off at Tahiti, took 7 women and 11 Tahitian men, and arrived at Pitcairn Island where they blew up the Bounty to escape detection. The Mutineers enslaved the Tahitian men, who soon revolted, and a wave of killing shook the island, resulting in a few years with ALL the men save one dead. Christian was among the first to die, slaughtered in his house's front yard in front of his Tahitian wife.

Funny how they leave that part out of the movies.

Men competing over a shrinking group of women is never a good thing. Those "undesirable males" can always just kill people to get into the gene pool. Indeed studies show that murderers have about 3 more children on average than men who do not murder; look at Djokar Tsarnaev, the Petersons, Scott and Drew, Charles Manson, all with women all over them. The easiest, cheapest way to get women is to start killing, which is why most sensible societies constrain female mate choice so that every lid gets a pot, so to speak. Matriarchies like West Africa, where women don't need male investment and do all the work where men compete to be the best singer, dancer, fighter are far more violent than sedate, highly constrained societies like Iceland where women even under the Welfare State MUST have a male provider to adaquately provide for kids over a nearly twenty year span.

Moreover, human society (absent dead ends like West Africa, and the ME) require ever higher levels of technology to survive. Imagine your day with no oil, gas, electricity, all that does not happen by magic and requires nerdy, unsexy men not the kind of dangerous bad boy who gives women thrills down their legs but keeps the highly complex systems running. Without nerdy, unsexy guys you are looking at a massive genetic loss by massive die-offs, not the least of which is a return to infant mortality rates of the mid-19th Century of basically 50%.

Who is Darwinian now? Humans depend on technology, which means unsexy nerdy guys, not the hot babe or the dangerous bad boy who can't even add.

Math is off

[OneAhead]

If you have a gender-balanced population, and you add an extra 5% that is 75% M, your M/F ratio changes to 102.5/100. The real-life impact of Amazon expanding is almost necessarily lower than that. If you go to TFA and then click through to the original blog post, you can see that the 130/100 estimate is largely based on other factors, but the author goes out of his way to blame Amazon, who according to my estimate is only a minor contributing factor to an existing trend. And of course, he has a wildly inaccurate clickbait title on top of his piece, happily copied by GeekWire and Slashdot. I'm more and more starting to feel that if bloggers want to enjoy the same legal protection a journalists, they should be required to have some journalistic standards in return. Call it a favor to society in turn for a favor from society. And the same goes for actual journalists. Once upon a time, they were the protectors of democracy, while all that remains now is a privileged class that works for the public image of the higest bidder and has limited accountability.

Re:Math is off

[Anonymous Coward]

He probably has ads on his pages as well right? As a publisher (who does alright for himself) this trend of misleading/tricking readers into reading his website annoys me.

Seattle has never been that great

[WillAffleckUW]

But hey, whatever you think.

Oh, and stop bugging my roommate when she says no, cause she really doesn't care if you're rich or not, and that was a really really weird date she was on with you.

I lived in Seattle for 18 months

[Anonymous Coward]

I moved to Seattle from Australia for a job with Amazon and I couldn't get a date. I was living like a monk the whole time and it was a huge part of why I left...

So this article is not a surprise for me.

Re:I lived in Seattle for 18 months

[ChunderDownunder]

thanks for the heads up.

Amazon have spammed me 3 times on linked in about hiring events in Melbourne. I went once but didn't get past the hiring process.

Her role model's closer to home

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

You should have gotten rid of your wife's high heels. The simple explanation is that your daughter is taking after your wife. Now if your wife dresses like a coal miner, and your daughter still fancies Barbie, only then can we safely assume that "girly" things are indeed baked into some girls' DNA.

Re:Her role model's closer to home

[schnell]

Perhaps, but my wife is neither a fairy nor a ballerina, and our daughter still latched onto those pretty quickly. All this despite the absolute minimum of exposure to "girly" mass media.

I'm not trying to suggest that all gender traits are inherent rather than socialized. I'm just saying that not all gender traits are socialized rather than inherent.

Also, I would really prefer that my wife not dress like a coal miner.

Re:Her role model's closer to home

[Grishnakh]

Who did your daughter socialize with? You think girls like high heels because of DNA? They like them because they see other girls/women wearing them. She saw your wife wearing them, she saw her friends' mothers wearing them, her little girlfriends talked about them and other girly things, etc. I'm sure you didn't raise your daughter only around little boys and isolate her from women altogether.

Ratios are a bitch

[RogueWarrior65]

When I was in college, the dorm I lived in (co-ed by floor) has a 8 to 1 female to male ratio. I used to say that some asswipe dude had 16 of them.

I hope I didn't walk right into it

[raymorris]

I hope my math is correct. :)

Re:I hope I didn't walk right into it

[Zyester]

You are assuming mean == median. Which is right for say, normal distribution with 0 skew. I doubt that it is appropriate for IQs.

Where is ....

[PPH]

... Asa Mercer when we need him?

Re:yes! 17 yr old, nobody has asked her what she w

[PPH]

Why the fuck should a 17 year old be able to answer that?

Goals. It may not be the same thing they want to do when they are 22 or 30. But they are thinking about something and working toward it.

Dating hint for all you high school guys: Ask a girl what she would study in college and do as a profession. If she doesn't have an immediate answer, run like hell.

Re:Forget dating. Let me tell you about the restro

[Anonymous Coward]

the world suddenly comes to an end when a queue forms at the bathroom door

Pffft... That's not a bad ratio

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree wholeheartedly. When I attended M.I.T. the Male:Female ratio was 5:1. And the "1" wasn't anything to get excited about. Funny thing, I talked to a fellow student at the time, who had transferred in from West Point. He was drooling at the "babes" we had on campus. The only thing that helped me cope was the cross registration program with the local all-girls school: Wellesley College.

Time for history to repeat itself

[Anonymous Coward]

130 to 100? Not so bad. Back in 1864, Seattle's ratio was something like 9 to 1. Then Asa Mercer imported a few score young ladies from Massachusetts. Worked like a charm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Girls

No different than..

[MpVpRb]

..any place I worked since 1980

Engineering offices are very close to 100% male

You've Got Male: Amazon's Growth Impacting Seattle

[danielpauldavis]

1970's TV series, "Here Come the Brides" about Seattle. Isn't it time for a reboot?

Can I outsource an H1B visa girlfriend?

[robbiedo]

I guess she can't leave me without a new sponsor.

Re:Can I outsource an H1B visa girlfriend?

[eWarz]

I wish for mod points.

Albany, NY

[Anonymous Coward]

Has 10 women for every 9 males.

100 IQ is defined as median, not mean

[raymorris]

I didn't say IQ, but if you want to use IQ as a numerical measure of "smart", IQ is DEFINED based on the median. Each standard deviation from the median is defined as 15 IQ points. So I'm not ASSUMING, that's true by definition.

We just discovered one person who is in the 40%.

Where are the females?

[Anonymous Coward]

So it stands to reason there is an abundance of females somewhere. Where?

Will someone please tell me

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are the places these men came from, leaving behind an excess of women?!

Perks of remote work

[Tough Love]

Clearly, remote workers back in the flyover states have a surplus of girls.

Re: Space Needle

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been thinking about getting a drawing commissioned involving it: the erected needle dick of Seattle splooging into all the sports stadiums.

Kentucky Girls

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy just ship some of the women from Kentucky out there. THey are fat enough to eat two guys each.

"them is" - one guy who didn't get the job because

[raymorris]

"them is" here's one guy who didn't get the job "because H1B stole it from him".

It's cool though..

[Anonymous Coward]

Most west coast males choose IT to be with other males. Apple is always hiring.

Ladies, no wait for restrooms!

[Anonymous Coward]

What this means is with a 50/50 split on restrooms there is plenty of capacity for the ladies. Men, just he opposite. Expect to shuffle between floors to find respite. 130 to 100 is the ratio of men to women in China. Congrats Amazon, in 10 years you created the gender imbalance that took the one-child policy ~30 years to achieve overseas. Of course, I'm sure Boeing and Microsoft aren't contributing to the observed imbalance, right?

If you're a "straight" male?

[doccus]

What's the implication here? That all that's going to be left in S Fran is gay males? And most of Seattle's are too? Well.. Seattle *is* darn close to Vancouver and Davie Street...

um, all the women in nyc

[Anonymous Coward]

are from the midwest, meaning they are homely and expensive

What dating scene?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that this should be reworded to ..."impacts the heterosexual dating scene"... - as it sounds like it's prime territory for man on man lovin'!

The solution is gangbangs!

[Anonymous Coward]

The solution is gangbangs!

I seriously believe my point has been missed.

[tlambert]

I seriously believe my point has been missed.

Even if you work your ass off, it's not going to bring back your blue collar job from overseas.

Even in a technical field, working your ass off is not automatically rewarded, unless you *ask* for more rewards, and even then, with a verbal agreement in place, you can end up not getting the promised rewards.

You have exactly the same "risk" of children believing the world works, automatically, to reward hard work, as you do having them believe the world works, automatically, to reward intelligence. There is absolutely *nothing* automatic about it.

Engineering University Towns

[Unsichtbarer_Mensch]

Similar phenomena occur in smaller cities (like Troy, NY) that host big engineering universities and companies and at the same time are not geographically close to bigger/more balanced cities. I've lived in such a city in Germany for several years (200.000 people and two HUGE engineering universities). The problem is less than in ages 20-35 men significantly outnumber women, but rather that virtually all men come from a similar background, have above average intelligence, are well educated, good in math and analytical thinking etc. The result is -especially if we are talking about a 'top tier' university- that a single guy's competition in such a place are freaken bodybuilders with PhDs in electrical engineering who also play 2 musical instruments. And these guys are everywhere. So you can only imagine what kind of entitlement women in such places develop...