With the Surface Pro, Microsoft Is Trying To Recreate the PC Market

An anonymous reader writes "An opinion piece at ReadWriteWeb makes an interesting suggestion: Microsoft's efforts in the tablet market aren't aimed at competing with the iPad or any of the Android tablets, but rather inventing a new facet of the PC market — one Microsoft alone is targeting. Quoting: 'Microsoft wants everyone to think the Surface Pro 3 is a tablet, but its pricing gives the game away. Microsoft wants to recreate the lucrative PC market that made the company billions of dollars by repackaging a PC into tablet clothing and then hammering away at the Surface product line until everybody believes that PCs never really went anywhere, they just got a touchscreen and a cellular connection.' This is also supported by the lack of a smaller Surface tablet, which many analysts were predicting before this week's press conference. Microsoft is clearly not pursuing the tablet-for-everyone approach, but instead focusing on users who want productivity out of their mobile computing device. The Surface Pros are expensive, but Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet."

Comments

Surface: the only Hope

[BoRegardless]

Stated the way it is in the lead in, that opinion may be the only logical conclusion.

MS needs hardware and needs an exclusive.

Surface tablets may be the ultimate crossover if it clicks.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[NewWorldDan]

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

But at the same time, Microsoft is losing a whole generation of users who are learning that they don't need Microsoft. I would argue that a lot of Apple's success today stems from the fact that they were the dominant machine in schools 30 years ago.

Kids today are running around with 7" tablets. Sure, they're infotainment, but they do everything on those tablets. Web, Skype, Netflix, they type up homework, and of course, play games. It is a major strategic mistake to ignore the 7" tablet market.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[avandesande]

Sure, these kids won't need Microsoft until they get a job. The surface is for corporate folks that need a portable computer to do work and are aware that carrying a laptop will make them look out of touch (pun intended).

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[jkrise]

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

How so? What fraction of business users have even considered Windows 8 and above for their desktops / laptops? Less than 5%, if that. A business machine that cannot run Windows 7 or Windows XP is dead on arrival.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

They are selling it as a laptop. If Microsoft wants to sell laptops they should tell HP, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Dell, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Samsung et.al. to piss off and sell an actual laptop. Not sell a tablet as a laptop. That is not going to save them any points with their hardware "partners". May as well start selling servers now too.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[ADRA]

Nah, there are hipsters and those who want a Mac because it has an image of cool that they want to emulate. The large majority of Apple users though are those that moved iPod->iPhone->iPad and have been tethered to that ecosystem for the past 15 years (or gathered into it at some point). Mind you, these are also people that have never used Mac's for work and are more or less forced to learn MS tools in high school, university or in the work force.

These factors aren't changing any time soon. Companies (except for hipsters in ghetto POS replacements, cash rich software companies, and graphics industries that are tied to proprietary Mac only products) generally don't invest in Apple for business, and I don't see that changing unless the value proposition changes significantly.

Where does this leave microsoft? I see their business pretty static for the long haul, and frankly, they should just adjust their business expectations. Not all software development companies can/should continually expand into new markets in the hope of increasing shareholder value. If I was MS, I'd secure shareholder value by locking into a holding pattern around product lines that make money while innovating incrementally sustaining their dominant positions in the markets they occupy. Constantly chasing the panacea of everything for everyone is and will continue to hurt their bottom line and errode their value.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[postbigbang]

Apple is very user-focused, while Microsoft is very business-focused. Apple wants to control your experience very thoroughly, whether you like it or not. Microsoft is more laissez-faire.

You can't change three characteristics of current tablets: their form factors are convenient, but not that of a notebook or desktop, their keyboards have gradients of: suck, and their native power is curtailed for general purposes because of the form factor. As battery technology gets better, you can sustain more CPU vs battery drain.

But the keyboards have been shades of useless, unless you get a bluetooth keyboard or USB etc that allows for additional work product to be performed on a tablet.

Microsoft is entirely late to the game as you suggest, but tablets make more sense to their sense of their clientele and like many times before, they'll work doggedly to improve a product to better its appeal.

Were I a Microsoft shareholder, I'd be happy. But I also know their sins intimately, and I'll NEVER be a Microsoft shareholder from my sense of ethics.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[MtHuurne]

They tried to go for the infotainment market with the ARM-based Windows RT, but it found very few customers, mainly because there are not many apps for it. A "Surface Mini" would only have a chance if it runs on x86 and I don't know how feasible it is to produce a small light x86 tablet that gets a decent battery life, while also being affordable and powerful enough to run Windows 8.

So I don't know if I would call this a long-term strategy or just facing the realities of today.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, there are hipsters and those who want a Mac because it has an image of cool that they want to emulate.

And there are those who want a Mac because the hardware is decent, well designed, and it ships with a Unix and a GUI OS that works quite nicely?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[lgw]

Your both right of course. MS is making a powerful play for the business market at the expense of the casual computing market. So far, anyhow - who knows what else they have brewing.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[unixisc]

I agree that the majority of Apple users ain't the people who had them in school - those are probably Mac users. The majority of them are people who picked it up when iPads were introduced, got hooked on them, and spread the word. It's not so much the hip aspect here, as much as the fact that there are apps for just about every need on the iPad - which is more than can be said for Windows RT.

Microsoft surfaces would have to match or better the prices of laptops for them to take off. People ain't gonna compare them to iPads, although the converse may happen - people in the market for laptops may consider iPads.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[theIsovist]

As someone who had the macs in school as a kid, as well as macs in the school I'm at now, I think it's the sexy packaging more than anything else. All the school's computer's now are loaded with bootcamp, and are almost entirely run on the windows side. This is in a design school, where apple always had a foothold with the students. The shift came not from exposure while you, but from a smart understanding that computers don't need to be a bulky, beige box, and can be a status symbol.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[lgw]

It still amazes me that you can't just run normal Windows on the ARM-based surface. The Windows kernel has always (well, the NT fork that is modern Windows) been built for multiple processor architectures. The whol C# infrastructure is as cross-platform in architecture as Java is (if not in CLR implementation availability). Ballmer must have really been off his meds when they didn't leverage those advantages to have "real Windows software" on the ARM.

But of course Ballmer's MS was all about ignoring the fact that legacy apps are all Windows has ever had going for it. People wrote for it because people already ran it for their legacy apps, and the cycle continued. Now what?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[0123456]

You can. There just aren't any apps for it (OK, I guess there are a few .Net apps that don't call native code).

Besides, Windows is old-fangled and dull, whereas Metro^H^H^H^HModern is the New Shiny.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[BasilBrush]

What app are they usually using that makes then need to use Windows rather than OSX?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[riis138]

Yes they are...but I agree with you that Microsoft is falling behind with the current generation of kids. This enterprise first strategy will work for them in the short term, but they are forgetting when made M$ such a powerhouse in the first place.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[theIsovist]

It's a mix. Partially due to it being an architecture school, there's a need for the cad drafting programs (autocad, revit, rhinoceros), but even during times where rendering, layout, and diagramming (using adobe suite products that used to be the mac's bread and butter), no one bothers to change to the mac side.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[BasilBrush]

The days that MS could make lots of money from supplying OEMs with an operating system are fading.
Apple's model of making the whole widget rather than licensing the OS to all comers has made them the biggest tech company in the world. It used to be thought of as Apple's weakness, but actually it turned out to be it's strength.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[PopeRatzo]

Not just business.

I use a surface pro for music production and live performance. It's the only tablet that can run a full version of Pro Tools (or in my case, Cockos Reaper) including VSTi's and VST's. I've written control programs for mixers using Cycling 74 tools and the touch interface is spectacular, not to mention I've got a keyboard right there built into the cover. Right now, I'm in the process of trying to get the WIFI n interface to offload effects processing chores (using ReaMOTE), but the damn thing has enough power that it can handle almost all of the native effects for live performance. I have friends who have tried to incorporate their iPads in music production, but the peripherals are mostly toys and the software consists of badly crippled versions of real tools.

I honestly don't understand why Apple hasn't come out with a full Mac tablet. Artists and musicians would eat them up.

I can't speak for using it as a business machine, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be ideal. As a creative tool, there is nothing else like it.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

My PM uses a Surface Pro 2 from his company for work. I have used my Surface Pro 1 for pleasure for the past 1.5 years. Best impulse buy I ever did. It does 99% of my computing and I only went back to my laptop when I wanted to play two games at the same time or one that was already installed. I bought my mother one and as a lawyer it was the only tablet she felt at home using. I know I am anecdotal evidence but that is all I personally care about in this instance. I plan on getting a 3 and giving either my girlfriend or my dad my original.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I used a DEC Alpha Windows NT machine back in the day. Windows RT on the ARM *is* normal Windows, exactly as you describe, with all the Win32 API's that a normal Windows machine has. Go browsing through C:Windows\ and everything is there; it even has a full complement of device drivers which is one reason it's so much bigger than iOS or Android. The only reason it can't run normal (though cross-compiled) applications is because there is a flag in the registry that tells it to only run signed applications, and the only signed applications are the ones from the store and the Win32 applications that Microsoft provides (Office, CMD.EXE, regedit, IE11, file explorer, etc). It is apparently possible to flip this registry setting and load your own applications on a WinRT machine, but since this requires access to a cross-compiler and the knowledge to use it, this is clearly not something grandma is likely to attempt. Which is probably why Microsoft set the machines up that way to begin with -- that, and for consumers Windows = x86, they've never seen Windows on Mips or Alpha or Itanium, so the concept that OS != processor architecture is just going to confuse them, they already have enough trouble with the difference between email and a web browser.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I plan on getting a 3 and giving either my girlfriend or my dad my original.

Why do you hate them so much?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

"dominant machine" that stretching it out a bit.... Apple wasn't dominate they were trying to run a monopoly on Personal and other Computers. Which lead to their downfall in the computer market. MS tried this same approach, the only difference between the two OS's, are you could buy any peripheral equipment for MS, and Apple tried to cut deals with makers to supply solely them, and in turn making you buy only "Apple Licensed" products.

And no surprise Apple is doing that yet again, and they are falling out of place with consumers.

For MS they still haven't got the memo, Proprietary software, and proprietary MS equipment is yesterday's news.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Rob Y.]

The only problem is - the business market doesn't really need a 'laptop that's also a tablet'. Businesses may buy some as status party favors, but for the price of a surface, you can get a really nice laptop that's even better for the business user's work needs. And a cheap laptop is just about as good for those needs too. Sure, there's somebody out there that enjoys using a 12" laptop as a tablet, but for most people, the $200 7 inch tablet does tablet things better.

To tell the truth, the phablet form factor may make more sense as phone/tablet hybrid than any tablet/laptop hybrid does. The beauty of a tablet is its comfort as a 'lounging on the sofa' casual device. A phablet's a little small for some of that, but since you're already carrying around a phone, a phablet means one less device to keep charged - and one less data subscription. Unless RT succeeds, there won't be any popular Windows phablets. And even if surface becomes a businessman's status symbol, that's not enough to fill up the Windows store with enough touch apps to help RT. Those folks are using it for the desktop apps.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, these kids won't need Microsoft until they get a job. The surface is for corporate folks that need a portable computer to do work and are aware that carrying a laptop will make them look out of touch (pun intended).

If you have a "job" then you would likely use the laptop or workstation supplied by the company. Not all corporate folks need a laptop but I have both a company supplied workstation (Lenovo) and a company laptop (Dell).

I usually keep both at work unless if I have to monitor something from home when I'm on a business trip.

I would not take a "Surface Pro" seriously as a laptop. Sorry.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[gtall]

"Microsoft is more laissez-faire." Uh, then how come MS has to have Winders everywhere stomping on anything perceived as competition?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[gtall]

no, people just didn't want to happen to their infotainment what MS did to their desktop.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[postbigbang]

Testosterone.

They believe that if others sell their stuff, they make money. Apple believes if they sell their stuff, they make money.

It's all about who they believe pays the bills. Apple: end-user. Microsoft: businesses. Linux: cheap is good, free is best. Very simple.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[ImprovOmega]

The pro is a reasonable business machine. But at that I would really just prefer to give the user an ultrabook with Windows 7 on it. Especially at that price point. Also the RT is junk from a business perspective, I can't even get it set up to where it receives email because it refuses to play nice with internally signed certificates. Which also prevented it from getting on the wi-fi. The pro, with a full version of Win8, would get around such issues. But at that price why bother?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[orlanz]

We are a pretty globally gigantic company w/ a couple of IT vendors. All are Microsoft heavy. We got MS everything. None are really looking at the Surface Pro. Primarily cause we don't want to be the first testers* and the price point is about 2x higher than we would like. We are looking at very light weight laptops and the users want shiny iPads.

If MS would drop the price to the iPad, integrate the MDM, policy, cellular, vpn, and office network systems, and provided a stable roadmap... I think business would look at it. But that's going to be atleast 4th or 5th gen at this point... with the business world buying the 5th or 6th gen.

* = This is the 3rd, but the first two are different enough that you can say that they were abandonware.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[BasilBrush]

Ah OK, for sure Architecture has never been a Mac stronghold, due to Autocad being on a PC first development cycle. It's other kinds of design that have traditionally favoured Macs.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I would argue that a lot of Apple's success today stems from the fact that they were the dominant machine in schools 30 years ago.

And I wouldn't believe you that because they had a bunch of Apple IIs in schools 30 years ago has led to them selling lots of iPads, iPhones, and MacBooks. Your case is a little more believable if you at least lower your time line to when Macintoshs were in schools.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Totenglocke]

Honestly, my only issue with them is the price. When you're looking at over $1k, I would prefer to just use a Nexus 7 for $250 and buy a cheap ultrabook for $400-$500.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[grumpyman]

Maybe not the users, but ask the 'corporate' or the 'CIO' level see what they think of Android, iOS and Windows.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Lumpy]

Not only they are losing them, they are pissing them off and the generation after that. XboxOne, windows 8, surface all do not deliver anything that is a "MUST HAVE" that they used to deliver just 5 years ago. They are delivering a ho-hum or a half arsed attempt and with the competition out there that is ready to jump in and kick them, they are losing it in droves.

I know hardcore Xbox players that are switching to Playstation, I have seen more people seeing that a chromebook and an android tablet are enough for their home computing needs. With SteamBox also coming around the corner... even less reasons to even look at anything microsoft.

They need to push adoption, and what they need to do is remove DRM from windows 8.1 and give it away for free, it will shotgun adoption rates overnight to levels they would have never expected. They need to release a home version of Office that is free, they need to cater to the user and draw them back.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Lumpy]

I see more ipads used in fortune 50 than surface. In fact in the last two CEO's offices I was working in (I do their high end AV, stuff that costs more than your house for their afternoon news) It was 100% apple and no microsoft.

If the top execs are not using it, it's not going to be adopted company wide. Microsoft needs to really figure out how to kick the ipad and apple out of the executives offices and get them to WANT the surface.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Lumpy]

Actually in the high end Automation and Smart building world most of us doing the programming use macbooks.

Why? best bang for the buck, and the ONLY way you can get a 1920X200 screen on a 15" laptop with 32gig of ram and enough i7 speed to run several VM's.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[sgbett]

This is absolutely correct. I don't doubt the hipsters and the cool-seekers exist, but the fact that some people don't even grok that there is a whole archetype of other mac users says mare about them than the 'mac users' they claim to know so much about.

After ~9 years of a painful linux desktop experience I switched to OSX. Been ~6 years now and I've never regretted it.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though it has the capability, it's not really the same in practice, because they don't allow non-metro apps to be developed for it. You can't just recompile desktop Firefox for ARM, because it won't be signed, and therefore won't run.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[c]

It still amazes me that you can't just run normal Windows on the ARM-based surface.

I suspect it's doable, but performance wouldn't be good.

There's a definite horsepower difference between ARM and x86, and if the "normal Windows" config is tuned for x86, it'll (slowly) suck balls on ARM. They'd have to strip down services to make it work. Plus, people are going to expect x86 Windows apps to run (hence the marketing debacle of Windows RT), which isn't feasible on ARM.

It's not exactly scientific, but for comparison try out Android-x86 on older hardware. I have an old Acer AAO ZG5, and every time I've run Android on it, running off a USB key, the first thing I've noticed is that it smokes any ARM Android device I've ever tried. Keeping in mind that many of the apps I've been testing are native ARM builds being emulated.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

Says Microsoft. Sales numbers seem to say otherwise.

But at the same time, Microsoft is losing a whole generation of users who are learning that they don't need Microsoft.

Most people never needed Microsoft. They used and learned Windows because the corporate IT policy was to use Windows.

I would argue that a lot of Apple's success today stems from the fact that they were the dominant machine in schools 30 years ago.

Do you have any actual evidence? Why would someone using creaky old Apple IIe in school drive sales of Macs today? Most people buy Macs due to owning either an iPod, iPhone or iPad not because they used hand-me-down Apple IIes.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Desler]

They need to push adoption, and what they need to do is remove DRM from windows 8.1 and give it away for free, it will shotgun adoption rates overnight to levels they would have never expected. They need to release a home version of Office that is free, they need to cater to the user and draw them back.

So your plan for Microsoft to be successful is to give away the very products that make up 55 to 60% of their revenue? That's gold, Jerry! Gold!!

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Jane Q. Public]

Kids today are running around with 7" tablets. Sure, they're infotainment, but they do everything on those tablets. Web, Skype, Netflix, they type up homework, and of course, play games. It is a major strategic mistake to ignore the 7" tablet market.

Which means you have missed the whole point of OP.

Eventually, the tablet will be the PC. It still has a few transformations to go, like better ways to interface to external devices and so on for when you are at your desk, but those will happen as tablets get more power. The latter is happening now and it will all happen pretty fast. New Macbook Airs are much more powerful in many ways than my desktop machine in 2007.

I have used bluetooth keyboard and trackpad with my primary desktop machine for 6.5 years. If a tablet had enough power (CPU & video), I could just plug it into a larger monitor and external drives and I'd be working on a desktop machine again. And again, the power is coming, fast. But that will only work if the OS could also handle it.

That means a serious tablet must get a desktop-style-and-capable operating system. Which Microsoft has set their sights on.

We can disagree about how well they're doing it, but at least they are trying. While at least at this time, it appears most others are concentrating on making tablet OSes better tablet OSes, and missing the bigger picture. The time for that is about over.

I expect Apple will be bringing more OS X - like features to its tablets. But it better hurry. And one thing they DON'T need to do, but have been doing to some degree, is make their desktops work more like tablets. This should be primarily a one-way push. Desktops OSes are mature technologies by now.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cusco]

Ruggedize these things and every lineman, every CCTV installer and every warehouse forklift driver will want them. No, I don't want to have to use a touch screen on my desk, but when I was out in the field I would have killed to have something as light and portable as this while standing on the top of a ladder.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[0123456]

So your plan for Microsoft to be successful is to give away the very products that make up 55 to 60% of their revenue? That's gold, Jerry! Gold!!

If it keeps consumers addicted to Windows, yes. They're on the verge of becoming irrelevant in the OS market if they let Apple and Google take more and more of the consumer space.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm 36 years old. 30 years ago, we used apple computers in school because they were the dominant machine at the time. Since then I've grown up, and I hate Apple products. They are good for games and nothing else. I suppose I'm not as immature as most of the young asshats that need to skype and piss their day away with useless apps and other social media bullshit, but I just can't see myself using anything other than a Surface - it's designed for productivity...

I've got 8 inches in my pants... I don't need 7 inches in my hand...

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[0123456]

To be fair, Apple wouldn't be doing so well in the PC market if Microsoft hadn't screwed up Window 8 so badly. I've seen a number of people decide to get a new computer, barf when they see Window 8, and end up with a Mac instead.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Ravaldy]

MS is for corporate and that's really where it all started. Home users didn't buy computer back in the day. Large corporation looking to thin out the overhead purchased computers. There was no viable options for home users, so home users started buying PCs to do simple things like accounting and word processing. It was just a matter of time before home users would be given another option and Apple was the first one to deliver. Home users don't need the complexity of an operating system, they just want to click and use. In a business we still tailor our software and hardware for specific requirements which is why PCs are still required whether they run Linux, Apple or MS.

I don't see why MS would want to be part of a market with small margins in the first place. Everything they built is for a higher purpose than watching videos and spending hours on facebook.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cusco]

As CPU, storage and graphics capabilities improve in these devices I can easily foresee walking into work, dropping my tablet in the docking station, and having real screens and keyboards. At the end of the pop the tablet back out and I still have a fully functional and fairly powerful general-use computer. I don't care for that form factor for the tablet though, a 7" Nexus fits into my inside jacket pocket or the pockets of my slacks. This would still need something like a laptop bag.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Ravaldy]

Failure in Windows 8 on PC doesn't mean Windows 8 isn't viable on a tablet. The tablet experience with Windows 8 IMHO is the best one out there.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[BlkPanther]

You're wrong. Dead wrong. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't outweigh others experience. The Surface makes a fine business machine. Windows 8 isn't incapable of running within a business environment. Old, Luddite tech people are simply unwilling to try it. Windows 8 runs just fine, and is very similar in operation to Windows 7 within an AD domain, with GPO and all. Seen it, done it, doing it. It's working well.

Consider the ever growing culture of BYOD, it's even more plausible to use Windows 8 and the Surface in a business environment.

As someone who's actually using the Surface Pro 2 for business and who needs to be mobile, I think it serves the purpose better than a laptop or desktop.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[BlkPanther]

I see what you're saying about business not needing tablet/laptop hybrids, but at least within my network: we don't buy crap laptops. The Lenovo Thinkpad we'd normally deploy for a user requiring mobility, is similarly priced to a Surface Pro (somewhere in the $700 - $1100 range). Buying the Surface gets you a great build, and a dual purpose machine, that functions as both a laptop and tablet with very little/no compromise.

Generally we don't buy cheap, because the build quality necessitates early replacement. Spending an extra few hundred dollars usually buys several years of additional useful life for the device.

The app problem is still concerning though.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[bondsbw]

Yes, but what fraction of business users have even considered using a touchscreen device? Probably very few so far, because those devices were small tablets that couldn't handle real work.

Microsoft isn't competing with the iPad or with the laptop. Microsoft is attempting to create another market altogether of portable business-class devices. If that market succeeds (which I'd personally like to see happen), the other markets may or may not decline. We don't really know yet.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[bondsbw]

By "portable", I meant capable of being used placing the device on a desk or your lap.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[bondsbw]

"capable of being used WITHOUT placing the device on a desk or your lap"... lord, I wish Slashdot allowed comment editing.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Pinhedd]

Lots of companies are rolling out Server 2012. Windows 8.1 workstations are following slowly but surely

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[postbigbang]

Part of the problem is: device drivers and the morass of problems you get when you try to get hardware device makers to think in non-Intel terms.

Even if you got Win 8.1 to work on ARM, there's more than one ARM family to deal with, not to mention reference chipsets that are almost insanely different. Windows and Microsoft are pretty glued to Intel, although at some point, ARM starts having the density of Intel CISC and mini-CISC (Atom) and then uses more power, and becomes less useful.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[lgw]

Sure, all MHz are not created equal, but still, there's plenty of Windows software that was written in the 200MHz days that's still in use that I suspect would run just fine on my phone. Win32 is reasonably fast and lightweight by modern standards, when compared to the CLR and JVM.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[r_jensen11]

I would argue that a lot of Apple's success today stems from the fact that they were the dominant machine in schools 30 years ago.

Apple's the dominant force it is because it's still riding on the coattails of OSX and the iPod/iPhone/iPad being cool. It certainly wasn't due to how their computers performed in schools. I went through school using their computers from the Apple II's, endured their horrible puck mouse, and put up with the slow and nearly-non-functioning G3 iMac/eMac line-up, with other Apple products in-between. Generally, the Win95/Win98 experience was more powerful (less waiting/hourglass/spinning-wheel time), and had about the same rate of program crashes. Doing anything online was always a pain, although having a marquee within a marquee will always be a nightmare)

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

.NET (and by default c#) is not cross platform, never has been and was never intended to be. It is cross language. That is, any language that is written for the .NET platform will create CLR code that is immediately compatible with another .NET language provided they are on the same platform. Thus, .NET code for x86 and ARM are incompatible, but Iron Butterfly and C# on X86 are interoperable.

The whole reason for the Mono project was to make a version of .NET that ran on non-Windows Operating systems and, because it was open, be ported to non x86 platforms. They tried to bring cross platform to .NET (actually to an open source/clean room implementation of .NET).

Java on the other hand, was designed to be platform independent. All of the platform specific call are implemented in the JVM.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[jedidiah]

> Ruggedize these things and every lineman, every CCTV installer and every warehouse forklift driver will want them.

There are already highly specialized devices for these people.

They're just "invisible" because they are business machines and most consumers are not aware of something unless it's available at a kiosk at the local mall.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[jedidiah]

Nope. I just means they've had some experience with recent Apple products. I don't buy into the whole "it's a Unix" propaganda. If you think MacOS 10 is Unix then you don't really understand what Unix is.

It's more than just a scary looking interface.

After actually having experienced Macs for myself, I view Windows as less problematic. While it is a festering pile of poo, it is at least a flexible pile of poo with a user community that won't screech at you like a pod person for pushing boundaries.

Apple is like the opposite of "artistic".

Although my biggest complaint would be the overpriced lame *ss hardware. Only the most expensive and least efficient option will do. No other choice is available.

It's the perfect example of form over function (and thus anti-Unix).

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cusco]

No, they don't. There's the Panasonic Toughbook for the linemen, which is a multi-thousand dollar full laptop. The CameraMaster only works for analog cameras, which are a rapidly-diminishing portion of the market. The PDT/PDR/whatever devices currently in use in warehouses are dedicated single-use machines, again costing quite a lot. The forklift driver can't review the MSDS for the stuff he's moving on them, or check his email.

Yes, I've worked in all three industries, I'm quite aware of what is available and what is actually needed.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Xaedalus]

Festering yet flexible pile of poo... you know, ironically enough that does make me want to go buy a Surface Pro 3 and dabble my toes back in the MS waters. I love my Mac products (and I stick horrifyingly absurd and inappropriate stickers all over my mac products just to eliminate the douche factor), but if MS has designed a "festering yet flexible" type product, then that might be enough to get me to play in both pools again.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Darinbob]

How does carrying a laptop make them look out of touch? I leave mine at work all the time, I'd far rather have a desktop than a laptop to be honest.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Darinbob]

I'd sort of prefer to have Linux instead, were I ever given the choice. The sole advantage of Mac is that it will run Outlook. Thus instead of one machine for development and a second machine for corporate BS, you just have one machine that does it all. (plus the company decided it should be an expensive laptop rather than sensible desktop)

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[organgtool]

Nobody is arguing that iPads are used by executives - the argument is that iPads are no good for people who actually have to do work.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[c]

Sure, all MHz are not created equal, but still, there's plenty of Windows software that was written in the 200MHz days that's still in use that I suspect would run just fine on my phone.

True, but you get into the x86-emulation-on-ARM problem. I'm sure you can build such an emulator, but I'm not sure what kind of speed.

That and I suspect a lot of the old software from that era that someone might want to run might be tied to hardware. Games targeting specific graphics cards, industrial software using parallel/serial ports, etc.

shrug I imagine it could work, but I don't see it driving enough sales to make it worth Microsoft's time.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[4wdloop]

>> It still amazes me that you can't just run normal Windows on the ARM-based surface.
That would be Windows RT...RiP?

Business model? In ARM tablet space there is no margin for M$ license.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[peragrin]

that's just it the surface pro is not something you want a lineman or warehouse worker using. it costs almost the same as tough book, but will break easily.

While I can see some use cases for tablets in warehousing, in general it just isn't needed. the surface pro is for salesman and managers who might need to type up an email while on the go.

As for MSDS that entire industry needs a severe overhaul. every SDS that I have seen has the information on it but sharing that information is like pulling teeth through goat.cx's arse. multiple incompatible file formats, sharing of files is at best painful. There is no reason why in today's connected world why I can't get real time msd sheets for which ever truck is on the road for misc. company. It should be mostly automated to the point of stupidity. yet it isn't even close to happening.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Rob Y.]

Why would a lineman want even a 12" device up there on the ladder or forklift? The only justification would be to run existing windows desktop software on it - but then it's not really a tablet, is it. And they're surely not using MSOffice up there on the cherry picker, so seriously, if it hasn't been done already, the apps needed by this kind of worker should be rewritten as iOS, Android or HTML apps. And they should be accessing them on BYOD phones or company issued ruggedized smartphones, not tablets - much less glorified laptop one-size-fits-all devices like the surface.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[0123456]

Failure in Windows 8 on PC doesn't mean Windows 8 isn't viable on a tablet. The tablet experience with Windows 8 IMHO is the best one out there.

But why would you want a Windows tablet if you're not running Windows on anything else?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[0123456]

Nobody is arguing that iPads are used by executives - the argument is that iPads are no good for people who actually have to do work.

Most people who actually have to do work want a laptop or desktop, not a tablet. The obvious exceptions are people who need something they can carry around and enter small amounts of data into (e.g. manufacturing workers, delivery guys), and they don't need a $1200 Windows tablet.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[lgw]

No, you can't just take a Windows app and "compile for ARM". That used to be the way for win32 code - if you actually followed the spec, you'd work just fine on e.g. Dec Alpha. And that should be the way for C#, but for whatever reason the full .NET library just isn't there on RT.

If the majority of existing Windows code could be brought to RT cheaply and easily, it wouldn't be joining the Kin and the Zune! (And MS is giving Windows away for free now for smaller form factors, if you missed that announcement.)

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Business users really don't give a shit what OS is running on their device for the most part, as long as they get mail, access to corporate network and can do some basic work when required. Where I work we have stuck to Windows 7 for the desktops as we don't expect 8/8.1 to be acceptable enough, but for mobile devices the benefits of seamless DirectAccess combined with touch screens mean we have a mix of Lenovo Helix, X1 Carbons and Surface Pros, all running win 8.1 for remote users, the convenience far outweighs the negatives around the OS. We are seeing the same thing for many of the other corporations we deal with, 8.1 isn't taking off for desktops but it definitely is for mobile devices in the corporate space.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cusco]

Actually a Toughbook costs over twice what a Surface Pro does, and weighs three times as much as even a ruggedized Surface would. The Toughbook needs two hands to work, is difficult to mount, is too heavy to use a portable clamp-on type mount, and you can't just drop it in a pocket or put a hook on it and hang it from something when you're not using it. Don't get me wrong, they're incredible machines, I saw one fall out of a bucket from about 20 feet in the air and just bounce, but a bucket or ladder isn't somewhere you want something that big. Especially a ladder, a laptop on a ladder sucks big time.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

"Companies...generally don't invest in Apple for business, and I don't see that changing unless the value proposition changes significantly."

If by "value" you mean "enterprise features", then yes.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[exomondo]

Most people who actually have to do work want a laptop or desktop, not a tablet.

But what's the difference between a surface pro and a laptop? It is a laptop, it runs the same operating system, has a keyboard/mouse but also has a touchscreen and stylus.

Re: Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the no true unix argument.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[exomondo]

But why would you want a Windows tablet if you're not running Windows on anything else?

Why would you want an iOS tablet if you're not running iOS on anything else? How many systems do I really need that run the same operating system?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cusco]

they're surely not using MSOffice up there on the cherry picker

You'd be surprised, I've seen Visio, Project, and AutoCAD's mark-up tools used on top of ladders, and trying to do documentation and commissioning by matching photos from a camera that you took a hour ago to a line in a spreadsheet is miserable. If I could have taken that photo of the security camera mounting with the Surface camera, drop it in a cell on the commissioning document, then take the screen shot of the raw camera image and drop it in the next cell I would have been far more productive. Just because you don't have the imagination or experience to see a use case doesn't mean there isn't one out there.

Seriously, you think that people should have to buy their own ruggedized phones in order to be able to do their jobs? Should I also have to pay for the phone line on my desk? Forget that. Employers are already taking too much advantage of employees, your assumption that we need to pay more in order to be allowed to do our jobs is absurd.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't buy into the whole "it's a Unix" propaganda. If you think MacOS 10 is Unix then you don't really understand what Unix is.

It's more than just a scary looking interface.

Ok let's see if you understand what Unix is: Explain - specifically - what Unix is.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[exomondo]

Even though it has the capability, it's not really the same in practice, because they don't allow non-metro apps to be developed for it. You can't just recompile desktop Firefox for ARM, because it won't be signed, and therefore won't run.

That's been their biggest mistake in the whole "Windows RT" fiasco. What made Windows so successful was a decoupling of the hardware and software - so no need to buy hardware from a specific vendor just to run a specific operating system so you could run a particular program - but also the ability to run whatever you wanted on it without restriction.

If Windows RT did not restrict what you could run then I probably would have bought a Surface.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

Says Microsoft. Sales numbers seem to say otherwise.

I don't know what sales numbers you're looking at or why you think they matter, Q1 2014 they reported $5.24 billion net profit a 10% growth over the $4.7 billion for the same time the previous year.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[thegarbz]

Maintenance, inspection, operational view, drawings, debugging tools.

That's the way the industry is going. You think a line man just goes up with a wrench and tightens a bolt? I've seen them take reams of paper to take notes only to come back down use a laptop and go back up again. I've seen them unfold A2 sized drawings at the top of a cherry picker. You want them to work on a 4" device?

There is a big push in the industry to improve maintenance efficiency by reducing the amount of effort maintenance teams of all kind (linemen, process technicians, instrument fitters, electricians etc) spend double entering data such as taking notes in the field and then duplicating them into a computer back at base, going back for information because they don't have drawings, wasting operational time by having to contact base to see if their change made a difference, having instant access to manuals of products they didn't expect to find because drawings were inaccurate, and general work-order close-out.

Internal estimates from when we rolled out these devices across our process plant (it would apply to linemen too) was that they saved between 10-45min per person per day in lost productivity. Unfortunately we only have a range because we introduced some other improvements in the process where permits are issued, and we introduced efficiency in the spare parts issuing process too which clouded the numbers a bit, but at the very least each person spent on average 10min per day double entering data because they were writing down what happened in the field.

On the flip side where there was no increase in efficiency there was an increase in accuracy as people who didn't write things down didn't have a problem of not accurately remembering what happened.

Ruggedized tablets are the best thing we've seen for the industry, unfortunately a lot of vendor programs currently only have a windows front end so big and heavy Panasonic toughpads it is for most of us as popular maintenance databases or graphics for process equipment don't have android front end. Though we did once experiment with running a remote X session on an Android tablet in a tough case which automatically fires up a Solaris based view of the control system, but it was flaky at best so it went largely unused.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[4wdloop]

Yea, WinRT/Metro is a different user space but there is a "good old desktop" Win32 subsytem in "Windows RT" (this is how they run Office there). An app recompile should do...

I guess they did not see any value in opening it out. Perhaps due to the real value of "legacy desktop" being the stash of existing x86 applications? Or they were afraid of more confusion (as if Windows RT/Surface/Surface Pro names were not already confusing).

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[chipschap]

Microsoft has become largely irrelevant and they're trying to get back to their glory days. The same happened with IBM some years back. Both companies expected their users to go where /they/ were going, instead of the other way around. Then, to no one's surprise but their own, they lost their edge in the market. "We're so big and we're so important our users have to follow us wherever we go." Windows 8, anyone? Sic transit gloria mundi.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Macgrrl]

As a long term Apple user (check my user name), I have been honestly surprised as to the number of MacBooks I see on trains and in the office that people are bringing in as BYODs. We are a dyed in the wool Microsoft house, but they somehow make it work.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

I recall Unix purists in the 80's saying that XServer users were heathens too.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

I already do this with my Nexus 7 2013, and sometimes my Nexus 5. The N7 needs an HD monitor as the res is too high for the big screen TV but the N5 works great at 55". Bluetooth Keyboard, laser airmouse, wirelesss stereo headset with boom mic or phone style phone earpiece. Plenty of CPU, GPU, storage and network. Works great for teleconferencing, documents, light video editing, remoting to various desktops and servers - even cloud desktops and servers - using a variety of methods and tools. I can even SSH and VPN, FTP and whatnot. The future is now.

It would be nice if we could get a Nexus 10 or 12 with this kind of display quality and performance. People would buy that. I don't know what the holdup on the next N10 is.

Re: Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

Not every website has slashdot's godforsaken insistence on re-feeding you the mobile version every five damn minutes. Some of them take a hint and if you are logged in take you to your preferred version and don't eat up your mobile cap serving the same fucking mobile page you already told it a thousand times you don't want.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

Sony sold their PC biz. HP is firing. IBM, who with a fit of prescience sold off their PC biz to Lenovo during the runup to Vista has now sold off their X86 server biz as well. Change is in the wind.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[kiddygrinder]

i don't really know where you're getting that info from, most of the businesses i've had experience with are lining up windows 9 as their possible next desktop upgrade, admittedly one is a bank so they just flat out skipped from xp to 7

Re: Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, i have always said... dont let the little kids (cough... cough... apple) play with the big boys toys. You know something is wrong when my grandma can pick up an apple product and call me on skype. Maybe apple will produce a developer suite of tools for her to use as well and then that will be the new "fad". Wait... did apple ever open their os enough to do real programing on it? Or game on it? Yea for steam support, a bunch of shit born games with 3 of 4 that are playable. Lets rebrand the ios 18 different ways and watch our apple freak fans by it. Hey but at least they have a new mac that looks like a sad version of r2d2 or a trash can. Oh wait... i already had the power of that mac 2 years ago and it ran windows.

Re: Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we all know the ceo's little daughter got an ipod from her grandma so all apple products in the ceo's eyes must be good... Right? Then he gets pissed because his mac got hacked and he cant sync files correctly or run an ms office knock off. But he does know how to play with time machine! Ceo's are the last people i would ask.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[cbhacking]

Windows RT *IS* "normal Windows". The only differences are
1) It's compiled for ARM (THUMB-2 specifically).
2) It's missing some legacy stuff (old versions of .NET and DirectX, for example) to save space.
3) It has a special kernel flag set, which prohibits loading non-MS-signed "full trust" apps (meaning anything that doesn't run in an AppContainer sandbox).

That's it. The jailbreak fixes item #3, at which point native code can be recompiled for it (and recent .NET apps will run unmodified). There's a number of runtimes for various languages (much of Java, Python, Ruby, Perl, Node.JS, etc.) and some game engines / emulators, so a fair bit of software can actually be run without recompilation (for example, anything that runs in DOSBox - like many of the games from GOG.com - can be run on RT's DOSBox port if you jailbreak). There's even an (incomplete, but sometimes sufficient) x86 compatibility layer that uses dynamic recompilation.

Of course, MS not only had to be boneheaded enough to cripple RT in the first place, they doubled down on the stupid with 8.1, where they added a bunch of additional restrictions squarely aimed at preventing jailbreak. People have sort-of managed to get jailbreaking working again, but it's unstable; PatchGuard now monitors that flag value, and will bugcheck (BSoD) the system when it checks (which takes a little while but not long enough to make it practical). I really don't understand why MS would throw shit in the face of people who care enough about their tablets to actually put that kind of effort into them, but it looks like they're getting what they deserve; RT is dying.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[hcs_$reboot]

It still amazes me that you can't just run normal Windows on the ARM-based surface

This is due to a (bad) implementation / development strategy. Take Office for instance. What would most companies do to provide a multi-OS/platform software? They create a bunch of system-dependent libraries per system, and at the same time develop a system-in-dependent software that is linked with the proper OS-dependent library for a given system. Thus, any new feature for a system X is also available for system Y.

But when Microsoft implemented Office for Mac (from 2009), they did a fork! Thus two distinct versions co-existed, Office for Windows and Office for Mac, each of them evolving more or less independently - with the outcome Excel developers in particular know (even at the time Mac Office was made available): some functions exist on one system, not the other, some having different parameters ; lack of consistency etc...
On purpose? Malice or incompetence? Wouldn't be surprised that they meet a similar problem with the Surface due to lack of genericity in Windows.

Aren't we told "never assume malice where incompetence will suffice".

Re: Surface: the only Hope

[symbolset]

Nerds used to run /. The sort of nerd that would have a 1080p smartphone or tablet on the first day that was available and fix this shit because it was fucking up HIS /. experience.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I am using a surface pro 2 on a current project installing tracking equipment in buses, I use it coupled to my phone to do all the paperwork and it works a dream.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Farmer Tim]

But what's the difference between a surface pro and a laptop?

The laptop is cheaper, or has better specs at the same price.

...it runs the same operating system...

It runs a version of Windows, but not necessarily the one the IT department supports or mission critical software is qualified to run on. That in itself generates extra expense which has to be factored into the TCO.

...but also has a touchscreen and stylus.

You have to move your hand all of three inches to use a typical laptop’s trackpad, you don’t have to stop to pick up anything or lift and extend your arm awkwardly. So unless there’s actually a dire need to use the computer while walking around those features are an utterly redundant ergonomic disaster, and a cheaper laptop is the better choice.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

I use my phone/tablet as an extension of a PC. So does everyone else i know of. The tablet market is almost completely backed by PC's. Those who don't, don't have any idea of what it means to back up your data.

To prove this all you need to do is look at the market. Tablets are supposedly taking over the market. Companies that host cloud services are not getting anywhere near the numbers they expected, where are users storing their gigs of data? Most of the big games out there either run on or are for the PC, why develop for a dead platform? Photo/video editing apps for tablets are very sub par. in fact most software for tablets is sub par. Is it just that we have come to enjoy crappy service, or is it that we are only using that as a stand in until we can take it home to our true powerhouse?

Which is more likely PC's across the world are being scrapped for tablets, or that the PC market is not a disposable market like the tablet market is. Tablet sales are good because they haven't caught up to the point that we want them at when they do then there will be no need to upgrade them every cycle. When the newest tablet is only marginally noticeably better than the previous generation tablet, people will stop upgrading, just like we did with PC's.

PC's work and they last a long time. Windows 8 failed because it didn't give us anything new, and even took a step back in some areas. I'd like someone to list one thing you can do with windows 8 that cant be done with windows 7. The DirectX improvement doesn't count unless you can list software that does something I can't do in windows 7 that requires it. PC's are not at a standstill because they are not being used as much, they are at a standstill because they can do everything we want them to do already. Sure my cellphone/tablet is as good as my 3 yr old laptop, but it can't do half the stuff that laptop can. And the laptop doesn't require any subscriptions do it's job, new apps for every feature I want, or need to be rooted. It just works.

Quit trying to insinuate that the PC market is dead. The tablet market is what is dead, those things are crap. We need to constantly upgrade them to get just one or two features we have had for years on our PC's. It's a marketing mimic, their portable nature is great but they will never fully compete with a PC. Well not until their designers finally relinquish full control to the users, then we may see them take off. Good luck of that ever happening.

Want Linux on your phone? anyone?

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[pdwalker]

Absolutely.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[NJRoadfan]

Office for Mac always had differences from the Windows versions.The dates functions in Excel were always a problem since the epoch on Windows was different from the one on Mac OS. http://support.microsoft.com/k...

The only real push Microsoft made was to unify the file formats, which happened with Office for Mac 4.2. The Mac version also lacked a proper Outlook client between Office 2001 and Office 2011, you got that Entourage program for mail and contacts instead.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Ravaldy]

That's a shot in the ribs... :)

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[bearinboots]

Absolutely this. I'm 56 years old, short, fat and bald. Being "hip and groovy" is the last reason I prefer my Mac.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[drew870mitchell]

The Surface Pro 2 is quite literally the best laptop I have ever had the pleasure of using. (Before being accused of partisanship, that crown previously went to the MacBook Air). It does _everything_ and goes _everywhere_.

That said, most of the additional utility for me is from using it while travelling, or using it to take notes and drawings. The vast majority of business users never actually need to interact with their work away from their desks, in which case, stick to your $400 barebones desktop or thin client.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you want such a shitty resolution? 3200x1800 baby (Dell XPS 15), i7, 15.9" (why 15"? It's so small)

Plus, who the hell cares about "High end Smart building / automation"? That's like 5 people in the world that cares about it. Not sure why you need to run 8 VMs simultaneously either. Pretty sure you're doing it wrong if you need 8 different OSes to make one or two programs work (which can partly be done with individual apps, like Smart Lights, etc)

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[vandamme]

If they compete against Linux and LibreOffice on price, people will start comparing them. And that's very bad for Microsoft. Right now, you HAVE to buy Windows when you buy a PC, and youSHOULD buy MS Office because, well, it must be better because it costs a lot.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[Lumpy]

Very very rich people and corporations really care about it, I make more money an hour than you do in a week.

How cute you make it sound like you know what you are talking about, yet to anyone that actually does anything in automation you look like a complete and utter idiot.

Come on back when you have even the faintest inkling about the process and systems. Hell just come on back when you can pronounce LEED properly.

Re:Surface: the only Hope

[exomondo]

The laptop is cheaper, or has better specs at the same price.

What laptop can you get that has a touchscreen, high-resolution display and active digitizer with stylus for cheaper? And if you don't need those things then why would you be considering the Surface Pro?

It runs a version of Windows, but not necessarily the one the IT department supports or mission critical software is qualified to run on. That in itself generates extra expense which has to be factored into the TCO.

Well that's a "maybe", but there's no reason you can't install Windows 7 or even Linux on it, what kind of idiot sys admins do we have here?

You have to move your hand all of three inches to use a typical laptop’s trackpad, you don’t have to stop to pick up anything or lift and extend your arm awkwardly. So unless there’s actually a dire need to use the computer while walking around those features are an utterly redundant ergonomic disaster, and a cheaper laptop is the better choice.

So why are you even considering it then? You're just complaining that an apple isn't an orange, well it isn't supposed to be and if it's an orange you want then buy an orange.

As far as my question But what's the difference between a surface pro and a laptop? is concerned you've pretty much answered it - and hopefully answered a question for yourself - the Surface Pro is a laptop but with additional features on top, if you don't need those then paying for them seems kind of redundant don't you think?

And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[gstoddart]

To Microsoft, everything is a PC which is going to run Windows and Office.

They've never really been able to see past that.

My personal desktop has never had Office (or open Office, or any office suite on it), because for personal purposes, I have simply never needed one. I use my tablet for infotainment and looking up stuff on the web when I travel. I don't use it for heavy work.

I'm not sure that most people want what Microsoft thinks is the tablet market. In fact, given the sheer number of less-powerful tablets out there that people are happily using.

Microsoft has ever really predicted much in the way of new markets or products, or led the way in innovation. They have mostly stuck with their tried and true "all roads lead to Office".

If I wanted a laptop, I'd buy one. I'm not convinced that what they're selling is what most people are looking for.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[tysonedwards]

Except, Microsoft is no longer making that much money from Windows. Their bread and butter is Office followed by their various server and software development products. Office gives them 16.2 billion in profit, Windows gives them 9 billion. So, office is *close* to double Windows in terms of supporting Microsoft's vision well into the future. Windows ubiquity is great for Microsoft as it makes things far easier for them, hence why Windows is now free for 8" and less devices as a way of trying to grab a portion of the Android marketshare. Xbox is cool, but then it only provides them with 800M. It does however create truckloads of good will towards them as it is a product that people really *WANT* to own. Try as they might, I doubt that they will ever get anyone lining up at their local BestBuy for a midnight Office 2015 launch. That want creates a halo for them where people are more willing to take a risk on one of Microsoft's other emerging offerings like Windows Phone or Surface.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[gstoddart]

Their bread and butter is Office

Yeah, I know .. perhaps you missed the part where I said "all roads lead to Office"?

Xbox is cool, but then it only provides them with 800M. It does however create truckloads of good will towards them as it is a product that people really *WANT* to own.

Well, I like my XBox 360 ... but wanting to own an XBone? Not likely. Microsoft themselves pretty much made sure of that in the lead up to its release.

That want creates a halo for them where people are more willing to take a risk on one of Microsoft's other emerging offerings like Windows Phone or Surface.

Time will tell. I'm not sure people are flocking to either of those in huge numbers.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[tysonedwards]

Definitely no midnight lines on either Surface or Windows Phone either just that people are taking a risk on them. Windows Phone is beating Blackberry at this point. Although in thinking about it, before long you may start counting Blackberries sold on one hand. It would be very interesting to see if Microsoft can hold the #3 spot should Tizen ever ship on something, let alone a Samsung flagship.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[jeffmflanagan]

>I'm not sure that most people want what Microsoft thinks is the tablet market.
>In fact, given the sheer number of less-powerful tablets out there that people are happily using

Kids and people just looking to be entertained don't, but those of who want to get work done away from home and the office absolutely see the value in these full PC tablets.

With a non-Windows tablet, I have to remote into a home PC to do any actual work remotely, which creates the opportunity for my home network to be hacked. With a Win 8 tablet (not RT), I can take all my dev tools and projects with me wherever I go. I can also use it as an entertainment device that's at least as useful as the alternative tablets.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Frosty Piss]

With a Win 8 tablet (not RT), I can take all my dev tools and projects with me wherever I go. I can also use it as an entertainment device that's at least as useful as the alternative tablets.

Or, you can buy a modern, light weight laptop for less than the Surface Pro.

I know, the Surface Pro is a tablet with a keyboard. So it must be better than a laptop - which is a tablet with a keyboard.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[riis138]

I don't know too many people outside the industry that know what Tizen is, let alone know enough to get excited for it. Samsung needs to realize, the reason people buy their phones is because of android. the hardware and gadgets are cool and all, but when push comes to shove, people are buying the Android ecosystem, not Samsung.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[tysonedwards]

Well, there are those who have written Android App Compatibility layers for Tizen that would allow one to run all their existing apps. Not that different from how you can now run Android apps on a Blackberry. Since one can imagine that most have purchased from Play instead of Amazon, they would be highly unlikely to do so without a repurchase though. I still think of it as a solution in search of a problem, but should a major vendor (like Samsung) put all of their backing behind it, maybe it beats Windows Phone, maybe it doesn't. All comes down to whether the general purchasing public notices or cares about the change versus thinking that it is just them rebranding Android for differentiation from their competitors. Android already looks wildly different from HTC to LG to Samsung to Oppo to ...

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[gstoddart]

Kids and people just looking to be entertained don't, but those of who want to get work done away from home and the office absolutely see the value in these full PC tablets.

So, I just checked on line with Best Buy ... you can buy a Lenovo laptop running Win 8.1, with the same 8GB of memory and about 8x the storage for half the price as you can the cheapest Surface Pro (the one with 64GB of storage)

You can buy a Nexus 7 fairly cheap as well.

In other words, you can buy two devices for the cost of this, both of which will probably be better as a single device of that class, and end up with more overall storage and oomph.

It seems to me like you end up spending much more money, for much less overall hardware, all for the cost of a Surface Pro. Upgrade to one with a reasonable amount of storage, and that ratio gets ever worse.

So, really, why would you if it's not even cost effective for what you're getting?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

But, at the end of the day, it's your money ... and you can spend it on whatever the hell you like. Hookers and blow, gumballs and comic books -- don't make any difference to me. :-P

Me, I'd buy a laptop and an inexpensive Android tablet. Because you actually get more for your money that way.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody wants to own the new Xbox. Its sales are cratering on the Amazon Year-To-Date sales charts, while Sony's console has not left the top 6, ever.

March 1-15th 2014: Xb1 is #18 and #20
March 16-31st 2014: Xb1 is #21 and 23
April 1-23rd 2014: Xb1 is #23 and 27
April 25th 2014: Xb1 is #27 and #28
May 3rd 2014: Xb1 is #27 and #29
May 5th 2014: Xb1 is #28 and #29
May 20th 2014: Xb1 is #28 and #30

And that is only in its best, largest and strongest market. Worldwide, the picture is far, far worse. With the exception of the UK, where it is still a distant 2nd place and falling.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[savuporo]

They bought Bungie for Halo in 2000 already, lots of kids were running to BestBuy it

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go ahead, link me to a 2160x1440 screened laptop in 15" or less that is cheaper than $999 (which is generously the midrange i5 Surface Pro 3). Certainly can't find one for less than $799 (the i3 SP3).

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Except, Microsoft is no longer making that much money from Windows.

[citation needed]

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I already have Office. Why would I want to buy it again?

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Moore's law has the implication of miniaturization. Tablet, or even phone of today will have the processing power of the todays PC's at some point in the future, and not that far off. So MS just make an OS that can handle that transition to new form and factor and human input preferences and wait. When the hardware catches up, it is easy to make a pc in a chip and run a version of windows that elegantly handles the new usage. We just aren't there yet with Win8 and tablet processing power. Give it 5 years and it will be a pretty awesome platform, and today's phone interfaces will just be a part time app that runs when your not in a hot office that detects your device and bluetooths it with your keyboard and mouse and printer and display or your TV and videogame controller and you get the whole sit down with great direct input experience. That's all this decade coming, so I'm sticking with current boring OS for now on PC.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would take a surface 3 over an ipad any day of the week.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[symbolset]

Blackberry is beating Blackberry. It is no great feat to walk past a Samurai as he bleeds out from committing Hara-kiri.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[symbolset]

Microsoft has been selling Windows for Tablets since... 1995. In all this time it has been the ideal product to sell to the customer you never want to darken your doorstep again. It is a Farewell product. A grudge product. The kind of thing you sell to people who mention their lawyer in the first minute.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as someone that lugs a laptop, Ipad, 4g hotspot, phone, cables, chargers and camera around the UK along with paper files most of my life I can tell you that I covet the surface three like no other device on earth.

Nice title

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice title this is -- Yoda

Right.

[Wdomburg]

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

Re:Right.

[gstoddart]

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

I've got a $30 bluetooth keyboard I use with my Nexus 7.

Other than essentially trying to sell a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed (and which will likely have crappy battery life and still essentially be a PC) ... what are Microsoft bringing to the table?

Oh, that's right ... a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed, which will likely still have crappy battery life AND it runs Office.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

But it weighs less than having to carry an iPad *AND* a Macbook Air! ... please disregard the 9hr battery life vs ~12hrs + ~12hrs on the Apple devices. 9 is totally close to 24.

Re:Right.

[symbolset]

This seems to be the product positioning strategy. It is going to take a lot more than waving your hand and saying "this is the Macbook and iPad you are looking for." Mainly because it isn't.

Re:Right.

[jkrise]

Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

How many Macbook Airs are used as business machines? Less than 2% at a guess. So the Surface Pro 3 can aim for less than 1% marketshare in the business machines, since unlike Apple, the brand has less charisma than a donkey.

Re:Right.

[ArhcAngel]

trying to sell a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed (and which will likely have crappy battery life and still essentially be a PC)

Are you familiar with the Lenovo ThinkPad Helix?

Re:Right.

[Missing.Matter]

Battery life is at 9 hours, enough to get you through the day without recharging. Plus there is a keyboard with an extra battery in it that bring battery life up to ~13 hours. Even with that, the Surface 3 is still thinner and lighter than most laptops.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

How many people are doing 24 hours of straight computing without access to an outlet?

Re:Right.

[timeOday]

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

That's a good starting point but not the hard part. The basic the problem with that is how to converge the touch-based and pointer-based (mouse/trackpad) paradigms. Apple hasn't even started yet. Microsoft took the plunge with Windows 8 and has taken a lot of bruises. Maybe it can't be done well; maybe Microsoft will make all the investment and then Apple will swoop in and beat Microsoft over the finish line with a breakthrough product. Or maybe Microsoft's convergence strategy will win. But sticking a keyboard on a touch device full of apps all designed around touch does not work well, and the same goes for sticking a touchscreen on a pointer-based OS and applications. They are fundamentally different because touch is less precise and so much slower to enter text.

I think the Surface Pro version of Office should have two modes: (1) "real" Office applications (not a re-write) for use with a keyboard and trackpad/mouse, and (2) Office Apps for viewing and light editing. Documents should open with the right one based on whether the keyboard is plugged in, and could get fancy about switching when the keyboard is folded out, etc. Other applications should follow this pattern.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

You're missing the point - "still essentially be a PC", "full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed" and "runs Office" are the selling points here. Just because you are not the target market for a product does not mean there is no market.

Re:Right.

[drjzzz]

How many Macbook Airs are used as business machines? Less than 2% at a guess..

Yippee! I'm in the 2%!

(Mostly I use Citrix to connect to the corporate environment but also Word and Excel on the Air. Mine is over 3 years old -- (still) a great laptop; instant on/off with the cover, reliable, good keyboard, very light weight.)

Re:Right.

[unixisc]

Around $1400 compared to Microsoft's $800?

Re:Right.

[BasilBrush]

My top of the head guess would be more like 30%. Business people that are travelling need access to email, MS Office, and the internet, and they need a real keyboard. And having the smallest, lightest laptop is a big bonus.

The MacBook Air was originally marketed by showing it fitting into a manilla envelope. Very much a business angle. Of course it was far more expensive then, and has now moved into position as the cheapest of the Mac laptops, which will have increased it's consumer appeal enormously. But I don't think it's lost any of it's appeal to business people.

Of course developers and other power users will need a MacBook Pro. But the power of those is not needed for business execs.

Re:Right.

[jkrise]

Business people that are travelling need access to email, MS Office, and the internet, and they need a real keyboard.

What good is a keyboard, if the Windows 8 OS ignores it and decides that you should use touch instead? The Windows8 interface puts off all users, unlike on a desktop, the interface cannot be replaced on a tablet, by installing 3rd party tools.

Re:Right.

[ArhcAngel]

$799 gets you the i3 with 64 GB and no KB. the i5 128 GB costs $999 and the KB will add another $129.99 so the difference isn't all that much when you factor in all the things the Helix has that are not offered or cost extra on the Surface Pro 3.

Re:Right.

[BasilBrush]

I was only referring to MacBook Air, as I don't know much about recent Windows versions. But my understanding is that Windows 8.1 brought back the classic desktop, such that you could switch between them with a simple toggle.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe Microsoft will make all the investment and then Apple will swoop in and beat Microsoft over the finish line with a breakthrough product.

It wouldn't be the first time Apple let someone else do all the hard work.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

It has been obvious for a while that Microsoft is operating on a convergence strategy. In other words an interface that can accommodate multiple input paradigms. Whether their approach will ultimately be successful remains to be seen, but they are clearly much further along than the competition. Apple, as you pointed out, has only make token concessions toward unity between their two environments, and Google went backwards, bifurcating into Android and ChromeOS as related but separate ecosystems.

I actually think it is a smart strategy, though I haven't used Windows extensively since NT. As touchscreens become ubiquitous, the options for replacing discrete controls with gestures will only increase. Scrollbars too small? Who cares, you just swipe to scroll?

There is also room for innovation in presentation of controls. Even on the desktop there has been a trend de-cluttering interfaces and presenting only commonly used controls. By decreasing density, target areas can be made that much larger for common functions. Secondary functions could be packed more densely and employ existing schemes for precision selection.with touch screens, like using long-press to highlight and expand a selection in densely packed controls, allowing you to fine tune before release.

Re:Right.

[Missing.Matter]

Windows 8 always had the classic desktop and you could always switch back and forth with the press of a button.

Re:Right.

[gstoddart]

Just because you are not the target market for a product does not mean there is no market.

So, what is the market then? Suckers? People who have gotten tired of complaining you pay a premium for Apple hardware and want in?

Because, as far as I can tell, you can buy a more powerful Win 8 laptop and a decent tablet for less than the cost of one of these, and you will end up with more storage, more power, and more overall usefulness than this.

It seems like you're paying a premium to get less hardware. Admittedly, I've never used one of these ... but given that you can buy a Win 8 laptop with more specs than the Surface for half the price, you're just paying more for the option of being able to remove the screen from the keyboard.

In my experience, there's a lot of places I'd rather have my Nexus 7 than anything larger. Because a small tablet is really light, doesn't take up much space, and can be brought damned near anywhere.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok - Ahhhh ha haaa ha haaa ha ha ha haaaaa! Holy fuck that's funny.

Re:Right.

[Totenglocke]

$800 is the price for the most stripped down model. Most of the models are $1,200 - $1,500.

Re:Right.

[0123456]

It has been obvious for a while that Microsoft is operating on a convergence strategy. In other words an interface that can accommodate multiple input paradigms.

Which is why everyone hates Window 8, because in the real world, ' an interface that can accommodate multiple input paradigms' ends up being 'an interface limited by the lowest common denominator'.

It's a dumb idea, which is why Apple and Google aren't doing it.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people forget a power cord?
How many people forget to charge their laptop at night?
How many people get stuck in airports?

Dont think in terms of "24 hours straight computing". Think "3 8 hour work days"

Re:Right.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

I've got a $30 bluetooth keyboard I use with my Nexus 7.

I looked into that, but I use a lot of specialized software in my work, and Android just doesn't cut it. I could install Ubuntu Touch, but I'd rather install another distro, which isn't easy to do. And 7 inches is friggin' tiny. I'm struggling with productivity on my 10 inch netbook.

The surface seems just about perfect for me. It's a tablet for reading papers when I want it in portrait mode, and I can plop it down and get some actual work done too. Even better, it seems like it's actually pretty easy to install whatever Linux distro I want on it.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

For the price of the Surface Pro 3, I'd much rather prefer a MacBook.

Re:Right.

[yoshi_mon]

Who cares, you just swipe to scroll?

Aside from getting gorilla arm and moving your hands away from your primary input device? Smudging up your screen? And having to worry about your UI being altered from being efficent with the standard WIMP interface vs some kludge of one that tries to accommodate WIMP and a UI that is designed for when you don't have access to a keyboard/mouse.

Trying to merge the UI because you want to be able to sell more stuff rather than it actually being a UI upgrade is not a good thing. I don't want a yolk for my car any more than I'd want a steering wheel for a plane. Nor do I want to have to lug around a keyboard and mouse to use my phone. Hopefully you can see where I'm going with this when I sit down at a desktop computer.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

I tend to stick to keyboard navigation, myself. That does not mean I cannot see value in other interface paradigms, nor will I outright reject that touchscreen interaction is not valuable even when a keyboard and mouse are available.

Adding additional options does not require removing existing ones. You can add touch scrolling and it doesn't remove scrolling with the scroll wheel on your mouse, or dragging the scroll bar, or multi-touch swipe on your touchpad, or using pgup/pgdn on your keyboard.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

For half the price you're probably going to get something with a plastic screen, half the resolution and twice the weight. This is a competitor to relatively high end ultrabooks, not laptops.

I'm not the market for this either. I'm a cheap son of a bitch and I haven't used Windows in years. On the other hand, I can see the appeal of the form factor and of having a single device, especially for people who already have a large phone for opportunistic use.

Re:Right.

[thegarbz]

Of course you're paying a premium for less hardware. It's lighter, thinner, and more customizable with a detachable keyboard than any of the other solutions you mention. I would love it if my Nexus 7 ran the Windows only software I use, but it doesn't. Less hardware with PC functionality is EXACTLY what they are going for.

That makes me a sucker? I think you have serious difficulty seeing past your own use case.

Re:Right.

[martas]

It seems like you're paying a premium to get less hardware.

Otherwise known as portability, otherwise known as the reason why there are computing devices on the market that aren't desktop towers. There is a power vs portability vs cost tradeoff, and the Surface is somewhere between iPads and laptops. That's all. I personally don't have a need for something like that, but I can imagine users who would.

Re:Right.

[zbaron]

That's a good starting point but not the hard part. The basic the problem with that is how to converge the touch-based and pointer-based (mouse/trackpad) paradigms. Apple hasn't even started yet.

Actually, Apple have. For a long time. Their touch based input is via their trackpads.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

*shrug* That strikes me as a fairly unimaginative assumption, but it isn't really worth arguing.

Re: Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

What button? My wife works there and says she's never heard of that button.

Re:Right.

[symbolset]

Me. 10 years running now. The special arrangements I have to make to do it are almost gone.

Re:Right.

[symbolset]

The first MBA I ever saw in business was with a presenter for a hardware firewall company. It was running BSD. Apparently you can run other stuff on them.

Re:Right.

[symbolset]

There are guys in Microsoft who have a strategy. Lots of them. Lately they are seldom in place long enough to execute it and see if it worked.

Re:Right.

[timeOday]

Nope, like I already said above, a trackpad is a pointer-based interface. Positioning and clicking are two separate actions.

Re:Right.

[zbaron]

On a Mac, the trackpad is both a pointer-based interface and a touch based gesture interface. Move one finger around and the cursor moves. Swipe up and down with two fingers and the content in the current application moves up and down, pinch in or out with two fingers and the content zooms in and out. Rotate with two fingers and the content rotates around as well. While doing any of these gestures, the cursor does not move, the gesture is manipulating the content of the application window or performing some kind of other action like showing the desktop or invoking launch pad.

Do you consider a touch based interface only when you're prodding at the actual screen with your fingers? Or, do we need to find another term when the touching is happening on a part of a device that is not also displaying the content?

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, just fuck those people. And how many people need a non-glare screen to write outside? Fuck them, too. How many people really need a fast computer? Only few, so fuck them. How many people really need a computer for work? Not so many, so fuck those as well. How many people need a tablet? Probably just a dozen - hence, fuck them.

Oh, and fuck you, too.

Re:Right.

[timeOday]

Ok, you make a good point about gestures on the trackpad being are touch-based. I use my MacBook pro about 75% docked with a keyboard and mouse and 25% as a laptop with the trackpad, and just use alternate ways to do things like raise Mission Control. So in that sense Apple has started on convergence somewhat.

Re:Right.

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone hates Windows 8 because they don't understand it.

If you install all the software that you did on Windows 7 and earlier, Windows 8 will run 99% the same as Windows 7 (just more efficiently from what I see).

If you want/need simplified / tablet / handholding apps, then Metro is there. Otherwise, you just set the desktop mode and forget about it.

Re:Right.

[yoshi_mon]

You ignored my other points but whatever. Lets address what you have said now.

The issue is that your finger is not a mouse pointer. It won't be unless you want to stick it in a pencil sharpener and get the tip of the bone down to a nice point. So failing that the UI will have to change to accommodate that. What was something that would be more than acceptable in size and shape to accommodate a WIMP interface has to now accommodate a finger.

Further your finger does not have buttons. To solve that mobile UI's use taps to simulate clicks and holds mostly to simulate right clicks. But it is still not as functional as buttons. Further unlike mobile UI platforms where you are directly holding the device, you would be tapping on a monitor.

Now the old CRT's back in the day could have put up with something like that without movement but modern screens are gonna be moving all over the place in response to tapping/holding.

Finally if you meant to imply that I can't see the value in other interface platforms you are very wrong. The issue is using the right interface for the right platform. And not trying to kludge together UI's for the sake of a single companies bottom line.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

I never said a finger was like a pointer. That does not mean you cannot design an interface that can accommodate both effectively.

With a convertible device like this you _are_ directly holding the device when using it as a tablet, and when you are using it like a laptop you have a keyboard and a touchpad, so reliance on the touchscreen aspect is diminished. I think you overstate the challenge there, though. I have absolutely no problem using the touchscreen on my tablet when it is on a dock or even stood in its case.

Either way, it's pointless to argue over matters of aesthetics. If your opinion of their design decisions turns out to be more common, it will do nothing for their bottom line and they will either change course or lose marketshare.

Re:Right.

[Wdomburg]

Seriously? Grow the f!@# up.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

You really don't understand how much good they have done as well, do you?

PC and post-PC in one device

[tepples]

This article about post-PC devices separates computing into "work", which it defines as focused activity, and "relationship-centric computing", essentially the digital version of social grooming. Phones and tablets are purportedly better for "relationship-centric computing", while PCs are better for "work". It appears Surface Pro is intended to be portable enough and to have a mode simple enough for "relationship-centric computing" while being able to shift to "work" as needed.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[symbolset]

Keep pitching that "Windows is for real work" idea. It is destroying the Mobile/CE business.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[MightyMartian]

It can do what it looks. For $900 I can buy a tablet and a notebook, with money to spare.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[timeOday]

But then your data is spread out across multiple devices, or worse yet, stuck in some proprietary Cloud. Secondly, if you look at the hardware in the Surface Pro 3, the pricing isn't crazy. It's no $500 laptop. An i7 in a device less than 1cm thick is impressive (although that one is almost $2K).

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[MightyMartian]

It strikes me as irrelevant. My Nexus 7 weighs very little, and the 15" notebook isn't too bad. I don't put things on a scale, and use that as my sole measure for whether I should buy them or not. The price of the Surface Pro 3 is too high for what it can actually deliver.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[MightyMartian]

My work email is through Exchange. Whether I access it through an Android, a Windows or an iOS device seems pretty irrelevant. I tend to avoid putting much in the way of business data on any portable device, using remote desktop to access business data.

And yes, GMail and Google Drive are on the cloud, and I use them, but then again, that's the way Microsoft is moving as well, so I ask "So what?"

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[timeOday]

I must admit, everything is moving in the direction of ubiquitous connectivity and data location transparency. I still think many businesses will end up hosting private clouds. But at the consumer level, there aren't enough of us who care, and are able to handle it ourselves, to matter at all.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[Anonymous Coward]

No reason there can't be both markets / businesses.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device

[Anonymous Coward]

I could get a notebook for free that has been disposed of my my company. It doesn't mean it will be any good.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

What good have they done?

Good luck with that.

[ugen]

What was that about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Re:Good luck with that.

[gstoddart]

What was that about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Dogged determination and perseverance?

Re:Good luck with that.

[kaiser423]

Yup. I really think that this iteration has some legs. I couldn't have cared less for the first two, but....as an engineer I hate having my notebook and scanning it or taking pictures of my drawings, schematics, math or notes. I also hate that I don't have my files with me on the phone, but a laptop in a meeting is just obtrusive. Previous iterations weren't powerful enough with enough battery life and Windows 8 was a total mess (still is a mess, but reaching usability). I would really like to try one as a daily driver for a bit, because I think it could improve productivity quite a bit, but alas I don't think that's in the cards.

Re:Good luck with that.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love a tablet/laptop in one, except its running windows 8. For the tablet side great, it makes a wonderful phone interface. On the laptop side I would rather cut my leg off than get another windows 8 pc in my house. I am actually looking at Linux as my future desktop, I never thought I would say that. How the mighty have fallen.

Re:Good luck with that.

[plover]

The Windows 8 UI is mostly OK for touch screen functions. It's worse than useless on a desktop or laptop without a touchscreen, and the CEO of Microsoft should be bludgeoned with a Model-M keyboard until they go back to the Windows 7 UI for those machines.

As far as portable machines go, I love my Surface Pro 2. It's not a closed architecture like the RT or iOS, and I have put a ton of random stuff on it, from SDR clients to dev environments to forensic analysis packages.

There's still too much integration with Microsoft's cloud (i'm not a fan of using someone else's storage for my data) but otherwise it's a very decent performing machine. And while it's nowhere near as light as an iPad, it's still very carryable.

Re:Good luck with that.

[xeno]

Yes, THIS.

I am stunned at how UGLY windows 8 and Office 2013 are. Last night my s.o. asked me to work on a 50-page doc on her new corp laptop with Office 2013, and the default layout/ribbon/color combo was so shockingly bad... it's hard to see the edge of the page in page layout, outline mode is hidden, strict styles are hopelessly broken, 30% of the screen is devoted to finger-pokey whitespace. Ugh. She hates the machine and usually uses it only for corp email.

So I mailed the doc to myself and picked it up on a Linux machine, and happily edited in Office 2010. But the thing that slays me is how really great MS Office 2010 (or 2003) works on top of Linux. Word 2010 is *faster* running in Wine on top of Mint or Ubuntu than it is on Windows 8 on the same hardware. Aside from corp websites that require IE10 for SSO, why in the world would I use Win 8 when it's slower and buggier than freely downloadable commie OS distros.... which have better-thought-out unified interfaces?

So the Surface is going to turn this around? With a flaccid keyboard, and a kickstand idea they ganked from Archos' android tablets 5 years ago?

I think MSFT remains in real trouble. Sure there's a mountain of money and Nadella is shuffling things like mad, but the company's become like a 10-million-horsepower Buick with a crap transmission, resulting in no torque whatever. It's comfy and we're going to coast for a long time, but nothing really interesting is gonna happen.

New product, same problems

[Anonymous Coward]

Price!

The steps from tier to tier for processor, storage, and memory options are too convoluted and expensive. Apple is bad enough when paying for upgrades, but this is even worse.

$129 for keyboard is insane.

Re:New product, same problems

[Eloking]

$129 for keyboard is insane.

Then don't buy their keyboard. What prevent you from buying a 20$ usb one? Or bluetooth. It's not a tablet, you have the choice.

It is a laptop and a tablet

[symbolset]

Meaning it is best at neither. Just muddled enough to offend everyone.

Re:It is a laptop and a tablet

[david_thornley]

Not as muddled as Microsoft marketing.

My wife is smart and technical, although she doesn't follow the same tech news I do. A few weeks ago, we went through a Microsoft store at the Mall of America. When we got out, I found she didn't know the difference between the Surface and the Surface Pro. Personally, I think this is a pretty big difference, but Microsoft seems to think it's not worth worrying about.

If Microsoft were clearer on these things, maybe people would be interested and buy more, and in particular wouldn't buy one when they meant the other and wind up annoyed.

False dichotomy

[pla]

Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet.

I think Microsoft's target audience here started pretty damned small, and shrinks every day as "normal" tablets become more and more compatible with 3rd party peripherals.

Increasingly, I see people using a tablet exclusively, with some form of docking station to make it more convenient to use as a desktop device. They don't lug around a laptop and a tablet, they just have the tablet and maybe a PC back at the office if they need either some serious horsepower or multiple feet of screen real-estate. So okay, for more than the price of a tablet plus a PC, the top of the line Surface Pro 3 config addresses the horsepower issue, while still having a tablet-sized screen - Too little for too much and targeting too few as a bonus.

Don't get me wrong, I think MS has the right idea on this one, and may actually have led the curve for a change; but until they can also do it for under $300, they may as well not even have tried.

Re:False dichotomy

[FlyHelicopters]

Yea, all that you said is true...

The key is the price, if this were not so expensive, I'd be a customer... but $1,299 for the model that I really would want, plus $130 for the type cover...

Yea, no thanks...

If it were half that price, I'm a customer. It is MS's job to figure out how to deliver that for the price customers want to pay.

Re:False dichotomy

[King_TJ]

Well, one real obvious reason the "MS hopes people will balance the Surface's cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet" claim is false is this:

Employees don't pay for their work-supplied computer! And by contrast, your employer isn't financially obligated to pay for your personal computer or tablet needs.

If the best argument for a new Surface is the idea it replaces both a work PC and a home tablet ... then they've got nothing. The rise in employer-supplied computers actually helps drive the interest in individuals buying personal tablets, IMO. There's a lot of stuff people can't really do with a work supplied machine. I've seen some that are a nightmare just to get on a home wireless network because they're so customized to work with internal network authentication and an encrypted VPN tunnel. If you're even granted local administrator rights on the system in the first place, you're still going to be cautious about installing games and other software. Meanwhile, these same people are often going to feel like they can't justify spending the $'s on a second laptop when they already carry one around for work -- so they consider the iPad or other tablets as good, cheaper alternatives.

Re:False dichotomy

[bondsbw]

But what if the Surface is your employer-supplied computer?

Or what if you are self-employed and you would rather have one device for both work and personal life?

well

[geekoid]

duh.
MS is leading the way to a place where you carry you computer all the time and just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
Something that works for well over 80% of the populace.
I'm not a fan, but the iPad would be horrible to do that with. With it's in ability to shop more then 1 window at a time.

And I own an iPad, and I like it.

Re:well

[jkrise]

just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
People who use bigger screens also use the mouse extensively (navigating, point and click, highlight, copy/paste) and a proper keyboard besides. One would rather suffer dental surgery than run Office apps on a tablet device running Windows 8+.

Re:well

[david_thornley]

Except that the Surface Pro 3 with keyboard is going to cost a lot more than a medium-quality laptop and medium-quality Android tablet, both of which will be able to run Microsoft Office. Moreover, desktops are cheap. How is that cradle going to compare with a real computer? It spreads files out, but file-syncing services like Dropbox are also cheap.

It's a nice product, but it isn't obviously cheaper than each of its uses separately, and it's not going to be the best tablet, the best laptop, or the best desktop. It will have some market, but it isn't going to make sense for most people, not at its price.

Re:well

[MMC Monster]

duh.
MS is leading the way to a place where you carry you computer all the time and just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
Something that works for well over 80% of the populace.
I'm not a fan, but the iPad would be horrible to do that with. With it's in ability to shop more then 1 window at a time.

And I own an iPad, and I like it.

Actually it would be fantastically good with a slight tweeking of the iOS UI. All you do is detect that the device is hooked into a keyboard dock and show the running tasks bar at all times. Unplug it from the dock and the tasks bar disappears.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm assuming the cradle with the bigger screen also comes with the usb ports needed to run a mouse... But the surface itself has that so it's basically a moot point.

Re:well

[geekoid]

And by cradle I mean dock, my bad.
The tablet it powerful enough to run everything office workers need, and its portable.
Corporation already use Microsoft, and MS has some good support for them.

If reality used you argument, we would all by running Linux.
Sadly, we are not.

Re:well

[jkrise]

a medium-quality laptop and medium-quality Android tablet, both of which will be able to run Microsoft Office.

Some mfrs still offer tablets with Windows 7, so you can run a proper version of Microsoft Office on it. But the Surface Pro comes welded with Windows 8+, and that is useless for business users and business applications.

Re:well

[narcc]

All you do is detect that the device is hooked into a keyboard dock and show the running tasks bar at all times.

The obvious problem with that, of course, is that iOS apps aren't designed to handle any change in size. A permanent task bar, then, would unhelpfully cover up some part of the app you want to use.

Re:well

[guruevi]

You know your iPad/Android devices are already capable of doing that. It's just nobody wants to do that. Tablets have less computing power, longer battery life and are cheap - they'll always be very portable, portable will always have less power than desktop/laptop. I use my iPad for things like the kitchen where I don't want to ruin an expensive laptop, require a water-resistant system without fans, smaller than a laptop yet not so tiny that I have to hold it to read it. Yes, my laptop has about the same battery life as an iPad these days but it's heavier, bulkier, more expensive and more powerful.

Surface tablets are just a rehash of the Microsoft Tablet PC's - they are as expensive yet less powerful than a real laptop and they still run a desktop OS. I don't want to run Office on these devices, it's too tiny for that.

Tablets are made for convenient content consumption such as recipes, the quick e-mail and web pages, not content creation, not a desktop/laptop.

Re:well

[jkrise]

Corporation already use Microsoft, and MS has some good support for them.

You haven't lied, yet stayed away from telling the truth as well. Corporations use Microsoft software, but very very very few of them have gone with Microsoft Windows 8. The reason is that Windows 8 sucks big time in the corporate environment, it irritates the hell out of everybody. MS has stopped supporting XP, and tablets run only 8, so it's useless for them.

Re:well

[Animats]

You know your iPad/Android devices are already capable of doing that. It's just nobody wants to do that.

Right. There's a long history of "docking stations". They work fine, but nobody wants them. There's also a huge compatibility problem - docking stations are usually very device-specific.

Hacker Dojo in Mountain View (formerly a hacker space, now a co-working space) has tables with LCD monitors, but no computers. People bring in laptops, plug in, and camp. That's about as far as "docking" goes.

Re:well

[sootman]

> With it's in ability to shop more then 1 window at a time.
> And I own an iPad, and I like it.

You're posting from it, right? :-)

Re:well

[Threni]

With Microsoft you know they're going to abandon you at some point; leave you with a device you can't - or don't want to - use. Whether it's XP (yeah, it's old. Your point?) or 7 (end of support in half a year) or Windows 8.1 (You have to upgrade from 8.0 to 8.1 to get upgrades...oh, and sorry, but although your device supports 8.0 it cannot run 8.1, so you're going to have to buy another PC and get 8.1 for it..oh, and did I mention that it's shit?).

No-one's going to buy a Suface 3, just like they didn't buy the first two (which were the same basic premise, so why do you suppose this third effort will succeed where the others failed miserably).

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why there is an attachable keyboard and dock for it. I use mine as a tablet, attach the keyboard to use it like a laptop, and dock it at work to use my keyboard, mouse, and three monitors.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

Most iOS Apps are however designed to handle a change in orientation, which is a change in size on both axes.

Re:well

[Toreo asesino]

"You haven't lied, yet stayed away from telling the truth as well. " - it seems you have your own version of selective reality too. Windows 8 is a big shift from traditional Windows but you seem to imply there'll be no change to this, which is very unlikely to be the case. As Vista was slow to get people off XP, Windows 8 will is similar in that respect (albeit for different reasons; Win8 is mainly a UI paradigm shift instead of a kernel one) but the point is that most will get there in the end as they did XP -> Win7.

A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a Surface 2 (RT, not Pro), and I've been very pleasantly surprised at just how good a work device it is.

My uses, as an IT manager:
          note taking in meetings with OneNote
          reviewing documents (Word/Excel/PDF)
          presenting (PowerPoint)
          email (Outlook or Mail)
          web browsing
          cloud storage (OneDrive)
          Remote Desktop (Citrix Reciever)
          entertainment on airplanes: video, ebooks

Surface 2 does all of these well. Better than the iPad I had previously for the pure-work tasks, albeit somewhat worse for the 'entertainment' tasks. Since my focus for this device is work, I've really enjoyed it.

I think I'd like the SP3 even more, because I'd get all of the above plus Visio, although I'd have to check out the size/weight for myself.

If what you want is more 80% entertainment / 20% business, or if you are in a business where MS Office/Exchange/etc. are not critical, the iPad is hands-down better, but I think that for many business-types, Surface deserves a look.

Re:A pretty good work device

[hypergreatthing]

So, what does a surface RT do better than an android tablet?

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello Microsoft marketing machine. No matter how much you tell us this, we all know Windows 8 is terrible...Sorry.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly, runs MS Office. I'm going to generalize and say that most business use MS Office formats for editable documents and and PDF for non-editable. Being able to handle Word/PPT/Excel docs without running a risk of corrupting the formatting is both a small thing, and yet so very important.

Seconday, and kinda-sorta related: if your business needs live in the MS ecosystem (Office/Exchange/OneDrive/etc.), it integrates in a nicer fashion. Android's Exchange support is good, but Surface's is better. I can't cite exact 'works on Surface, doesn't work on Android' examples, but I own both (Surface 2, Nook HD+ w/CM11) and find that sometimes my calendar isn't quite in sync on the Nook, or the email address book isn't fully populated.

Finally, on the Surface RT, bitlocker is mandatory. That's been a real pain, frankly, but it also means that I don't worry so much about the device being stolen or misplaces. If that happens, I should be able to remote-wipe it before information is compromised.

Re: A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Not make u Google's bitch?

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Not be tied to Google in any way, for starters.

Re:A pretty good work device

[fermion]

Agreed, but the needed to do more work. For instance, they compared the Surface to a 13" Macbook Air because they could not get the specs down to an 11" Macbook Air. In fact the 12" Surface is about halfway between the Macbook Airs. The fact it leaves the 13" Macbook in the dust, as all the ad talk has said, is not that relevant.

More often than not, the choice of machine is going to depend on workflow. If you are MS products, then this machine is a good choice. If you are on Google Drive, then an Android tablet probably works best. My days often involves Emacs, LaTex, python, openoffice, and ocassionaly the Apple office suite, so a Macbook works well for me as the GUI interfaces to these are very well worked out.

The challenge for MS is to entice people who are not dedicated to the MS products to buy Surface so they become dedicated to the MS products, as Apple did with Macbook Air and Pro.

This is not going to do it. Corporate is not going to pay double for a surface and keyboard than for a laptop. The average person is not going to pay more for a surface than an 11" Macbook Air or an iPad or the knockoffs.

MS should have the cash and supply chain to build a tablet with keyboard for $600. This is something that people would buy and would put MS back in the spotlight. Of course at this price point, all the OEM people who complain vigorously. Which is the fundamental problem. Is MS a company that sells to consumers, or is it a company that sells to OEM. As long as it focuses on the later at the expense to the former, they will never have decent hardware at a good price.

Re:A pretty good work device

[jkrise]

My uses, as an IT manager:
                      note taking in meetings with OneNote
IT Manager that takes notes? Interesting.

                      reviewing documents (Word/Excel/PDF)
For every Manager that reviews documents, there are a 100+ business users that create and edit them. Very painful on a tablet, even a Surface Pro.

presenting (PowerPoint)
Again, a small fraction of business users.

email (Outlook or Mail)
Very painful without a real mouse and keyboard, you can attach them to a tablet, but that's make it more expensive and more cumbersome than a desktop at a third of the price.

web browsing
Again, painful on Windows*+ versions of the OS.

cloud storage (OneDrive)
again, this is far better on laptops and desktops with proper network cards.

                      Remote Desktop (Citrix Reciever)
                      entertainment on airplanes: video, ebooks
A 12" device is more of a hindrance for these use cases. On a tablet 10" form factor like the iPad would've been ideal.

Re:A pretty good work device

[unixisc]

If someone has a Surface 2 Pro, can one run the legacy Wintel apps under Windows 8?

Re:A pretty good work device

[BaronM]

Absolutely: Surface (RT/Pro) is a product for those ALREADY tied in to MS systems, not a product to entice new customers.

Thankfully for MS, in the business world, that's a pretty big market, so take it and run with it:

1. Remove the silly restrictions on joining the RT Surfaces to a domain and using them for business purposes.
2. Introduce Surface 3 (non-pro) @$500. Sell it at cost, if cost is less than $500. I don't care if it's ARM or x64, but keep everything that makes Surface 2 good and cut price to the bone. Make them so attractive that managers need to justify NOT buying them, not the other way around.
3. Bundle the full Office suite with all Surfaces, not just the RT version, and add Visio.
4. Bundle at least the basic touch keyboard with all Surfaces.

Basically, instead of trying to sell to the iPad market, embrace these as business machines that also happen to work OK for entertainment on the go.

Re:A pretty good work device

[geekoid]

https://play.google.com/store/...

Re:A pretty good work device

[BaronM]

My uses, as an IT manager:

                      note taking in meetings with OneNote
IT Manager that takes notes? Interesting.

Serious question: what do you think managers do? How do you think we juggle multiple projects with varying requirements, deadlines, staffing needs, and status changes without taking careful notes?

Regarding Surface: I've offered my thoughts based on 6+ months of daily real-world business usage. I gather that you disagree, but I'd like to know: have you actually tried using one?

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what does a surface RT do better than an android tablet?

Matlab, Mathematica, Mendaley, Lyx, Cubase, Photoshop, etc. Anyone who is doing non-basic stuff is probably using some specialty programs, and the ones that are not for a Mac/PC tend to be dumbed down, useless and buggy, or simply non-existent. Sure, for a few years I used Terminal IDE on my Android tablet (Thinkpad Tablet, got it because I wanted the pen and it was amazing!) to program and open up things on the cluster through an X11 terminal or a Linux installation I put on there, or compiled Latex and ran MATLAB code through the online interpreters that the apps provided... but that was slow, required an internet connection (no working on the plane!), took a long time to setup, broke easily, and sometimes things just weren't compatible. If you're really doing this work you just start to go "this is not worth my time. There's a device made for this already" and pick up a surface. Loving my Surface Pro 2.

Re:A pretty good work device

[jkrise]

I gather that you disagree, but I'd like to know: have you actually tried using one?

I tried a Surface RT when it came out, could not join it to the Active Directory.
The Surface Pro2 was too pricey but the boss got one. Running regular MS applications on Windows 8 gave me a dirty guilty feeling, I didn't feel comfortable at all.
Atleast on a desktop with Windows 8, you can escape to the classic interface with some effort, on a tablet it is futile.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. It's a standard Windows machine, just in a different form factor. You can even wipe it and install Linux if you want (just have to go into the bios and disable secure boot).

Re:A pretty good work device

[ImprovOmega]

Lucky for you your work wi-fi doesn't use an Enterprise CA certificate or you'd be out of luck. Surface RT refuses to talk to anything that's not signed by a public certification authority that it trusts, and it doesn't seem to do wildcard certs either. We had one for testing and couldn't even get it on the network. iPad and Android devices at least let you just click through a warning.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you - the market doesn't give a shit.

Re:A pretty good work device

[TheSunborn]

None of Matlab, Mathematica, Mendaley, Lyx, Cubase, Photoshop run on Surface RT. (Blame Microsoft marketing for that misunderstanding).

Re:A pretty good work device

[Darinbob]

But can you do work on it too? Not just corporate stuff, but actual development, a decent command line, plenty of power for doing builds, ports for attaching development tools (debuggers, serial ports, logic analyzers, etc), and so on. Then plug it into a real keyboard with a real monitor (making the built in stuff useless unless you're at a meeting and aren't paying attention to the speaker).

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

"Atleast on a desktop with Windows 8, you can escape to the classic interface with some effort, on a tablet it is futile."
---
Total BS, on Surface Pro it's no different then a desktop if you want to escape to the classic interface, most of the time I forget my SP2 even has the non-classic interface option.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

yes. SPro's run full copies of win8 and run x86 hardware.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

did you even read the programs he posted? office? lol. Matlab is not office. None of the others are either. PS for android is a joke, compared to the PC version.

For people who use their computers for useful things other than writing and excel, android just isn't as good. The software for windows blows it out of the water.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes

Re:A pretty good work device

[cbhacking]

Yes, of course. I'd say "duh, obviously" but apparently even on Slashdot the fact that it's an x64 processor running standard Windows seems to have escaped peoples' attention. The RT line can't run legacy apps, due partially to not being the "intel" part of "Wintel" and partially due to Microsoft intentionally crippling it (there's a jailbreak that allows you to run ported apps, but it doesn't work on RT 8.1 yet).

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Read his question again. He's not asking about Surface Pro. Surface and Surface Pro are two very different products that happen to share the same brand.

Surface 2/RT is running the gimped Windows RT which is running on top of an ARM based chip. It's not compatible with any x86 app. On top of that it's locked down to the windows appstore which has considerably inferior collection of apps compared to iOS and Android and only supports Metro.

Surface Pro(which is the one you own) are the only tablets that run full blown desktop OS and the only with a x86 based chipset.

Re:A pretty good work device

[Toreo asesino]

So add a trusted root authority certificate to the list and job done?

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

Do any of the programs listed work on a RT?

Re:A pretty good work device

[Anonymous Coward]

I am continuously amazed at the number of tech folks here who think that a poor, user-fixable aesthetic choice means an entire system is worthless. Or that their personal preferences are the only ones that are commercially viable.

Then again, some of them say dumb things like "tried a Surface RT when it came out, could not join it to the Active Directory".

Nope!

[ADRA]

Try again MS. You have plenty of cash reserves to burn through, so good luck with that.

On the flip side, I want to say they third party market of tablet add-on's (cases/keyboards) is just horrible. Walk into any consumer electronics store and see 60000 ipad items, maybe 1-2 Samsung specific items, a few MS ones, and literally nothing else for any of the countless Android devices. It just means I don't buy a keyboard or whatever and these companies continue to believe that there's no market for them.

Re:Nope!

[oodaloop]

Try shopping on the interwebs. I have a Nexus 7 3.0, and have had no problems finding a wide range of accessories on Amazon and ebay.

Re:Nope!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a different store. When I bought my Nexus 7 I had a choice of several different cases and keyboards right there in the store.

Most likely it's an issue if you buy a $50 Chinese no-name Android tablet, because no-one's going to be building $50 accessories specific to it.

Remember when?

[szmccauley]

Remember when Microsoft first demoed the surface concept, all those years ago? Man did they ever drop the ball under that Balmer guy. I haven't willingly bought a microsoft product for 13 years now, and even then it was grudgingly. Nothing will change that these days.

Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[mmell]

...in this instance, they're actually pushing towards a lucrative market. There are many professionals (myself among them) who have long wanted what we once referred to as a "stylus form-factor" PC. They existed as far back as the early '90's, but at a ridiculously high price and with no effort to write software to take advantage of the stylus form factor. Obviously, it never took off back then.

Personally, the Asus Transformer got 90% of the way to what I was looking for back in the twentieth century. Microsoft's latest offering appears to go the last 10%. I'm a Linux geek personally, but I do need to be able to run MS-Office compatible software on whatever platform I use. Microsoft's pitch -- "runs all your favorite MS software on your device of choice" is actually a powerful incentive for marketing to professionals. If they are addressing the perceived shortcomings of the tablet form factor, I suspect they may well be onto something.

Not planning on ditching my Android devices anytime soon, nor installing Windows on my Linux PC's - but I can sure see a lot of professionals doing so just for the ability to more or less seamlessly integrate their mobile devices with organization infrastructure. I may not like MS software, but nothing integrates with a Windows-based infrastructure like MS-Windows - hardware platform notwithstanding.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[jkrise]

I do need to be able to run MS-Office compatible software on whatever platform I use. Microsoft's pitch -- "runs all your favorite MS software on your device of choice"

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

A $300 desktop does it very well, and a $500 laptop does it better, and is portable besides.

A tablet that doesn't win Windows 7 or XP is useless for business users.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

I manage a few this way and they're completely identical to any other wireless windows device on our network - ie. completely trivial. I don't know what you're trying to get at.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

No...why would I since I can buy a travel keyboard/mouse?

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

I don't have a favorite MS software but all the software that needs to be run, runs just fine on the tablet so far (surface pro 2 as well as a Dell Venue 11 Pro).

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

Yep, works just fine. What's your issue with it?

A $300 desktop does it very well, and a $500 laptop does it better, and is portable besides.

A tablet that doesn't win Windows 7 or XP is useless for business users.

$500 laptop? Uh, yeah I'd rather not have to replace it a year or two years from now. Comparing specs wise to a laptop, the equivalent laptop would be about the same price (even with the travel keyboard). Not only that but with the tablet (any tablet really, even an iPad, etc...) you get the "oh (s)he is 'cool' and has a tablet and the IT dept there is up-to-date!" factor that is huge with the executive/VPs type people.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[timeOday]

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

Wait, does the Surface Pro not run Windows 8, or does Windows 8 not do that? I would have thought Microsoft would nail Enterprise integration before anything else.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Yes. My Asus T100 does quite well with it. Of course, you might consider the touchscreen to be a "mouse" since it's a pointing device. Also, learn keyboard shortcuts. They're fast. Also, USB ports and Bluetooth allow for external mice. Use them. Even the el cheap-o T100 has both. I really can't recommend the crappy touchpad, though. Those things are just terrible.

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

Yes. I do this all the time. If you can't, then you're probably too dumb to use a computer. Don't accuse everyone else of being that dumb. It's not nice.

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

No, actually. But I'm pretty sure the latest Surface Pro comes with Windows 8.1, not Windows 8.1 Pro, which explains the problem. It's a bit of a misnomer and a complete marketing screw-up, but don't act like you didn't know why it didn't work. Unless, of course, you're dumb...

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

They had something that would have been perfect for this, Courier, but it was killed before it could really be tested.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[jader3rd]

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Yes. When I'm on the bus, mouse is awful. So when I'm doing computations in Excel on the bus it's all keyboard with the occasional touch of the screen.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

The pro's do run full win8, and there are no gotcha's related to AD\GPO with the SPro2's+.... the RT's are a different story.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

A SP works fine, a Surface RT (ARM) doesn't.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[vux984]

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Turns out being adept with keyboard shortcuts plus the touchscreen/ribbon actually works quite well.

I wouldn't want to go without a mouse and use a touchscreen on the the 24" screen on my desk. But a tablet on my lap on the couch... works a treat.

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

Its exactly the same as the new win 8.1 dell optiplexes scattered around the company. EXACTLY THE SAME. It works fine.

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

That's why we have them. Because iPad doesn't run them at all, and nearly everything we need runs fine on them. We do have a few XP laptops kicking around for hardware interface stuff that just won't run on anything newer than XP but that's a separate issue, and nothing to do with Windows 8 or Surface Pro, as they won't working on Vista onwards. So a laptop with windows 7 pro isn't going to be any better.

A $300 desktop does it very well, and a $500 laptop does it better, and is portable besides.

And a surface pro 3 is just a smaller more expensive laptop, that is even more portable, and has a better battery life.

A tablet that doesn't win Windows 7 or XP is useless for business users.

No. Windows 8 is far better than Windows 7 is on a touch device. "8.1 update 1" is thoroughly decent and I don't personally really prefer 7 to it at this point; and the stuff I've seen with the "start menu" planned this year will pretty much end virtually all my complaints about it.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent poster is smoking crack and so are the mods.

> Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?
The Pro has a stylus which works just fine as a mouse. Artists like Gabe from Penny Arcade use it.

> Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?
Has sweet FA with the Surface.

> Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?
The Pro is a bog standard x86 laptop so it works perfectly.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Every day. Office 2013 works better than any other office app I've used without a mouse.

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

Every day. I am a developer and have several versions of VS installed on my Surface. I have seen some issues with display scaling on some applications but most things work fine.

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

Everyone in my department except one person has done this without any problems. Other departments have several Surface users as well.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[threc]

MS Office with the type keyboard, using shortcuts, and the trackpad works fine. My only complaint is sometimes the alt key gets stuck. Dragging around graphical items can be somewhat of a pain with the trackpad, but that is what the touch screen is for. There are a couple of older MFC applications I use where the menu items are slightly out of place, but it is not so much of an impediment that the tools are unusable. Gpedit.msc is no different in the latest windows 8.1 update than it is in windows 7. I can code on the Surface using Wing/Visual Studio. Write documents. Read PDFs and other white papers. Do I prefer the Surface over a desktop PC? No. But is it better than an iPad for a programmer / business user? For almost every task, yes. The Surface is basically a tablet plus, laptop minus. Better than my iPad and easier to lug around than my laptop.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT...

[Toreo asesino]

"Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?" - this is a big red flag to me you are either spreading FUD knowingly or you genuinely don't know what you're talking about. All Surface Pro tablets can use full AD and that's been documented for years.

But business users are not fools

[jkrise]

Only a foolish business user would willingly throw $700 for a device that lacks a proper keyboard, mouse or network card interface to the company's active directory managed network. Business users need Word, Excel and Outlook; they need to be able to run legacy apps developed years ago, that do not run properly if at all, on Windows 8 and above.

Unless business users can load Windows 7 on the Surface Pro 3, the device will lose another billion bucks for the beast from Redmond. No point having powerful hardware when the software sucks.

And So?

[crackspackle]

The tablet PC is not new. It preceded the iPad and Android tablets by several years but the technology sucked. It's better now to the point that a tablet PC is workable and for my money, MS is proving the point well with the Surface Pro line. The iPad succeeded where the previous tablets failed because they reduced functionality down to media consumption only while taking advantage of the then more advanced technology to create a far more elegant design. It’s still not suited to real work while the Surface Pro actually is. I welcome it. I have an iPad and I hate having to switch to my laptop every time I think of some small bit of work I need to do. There is a huge market for a device like this among business users and less casual home users like me. I hope they succeed and if it brings them a windfall of new money. That’s exactly as it should be.

Will it run Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I might consider it, then.

Re:Will it run Linux?

[TechyImmigrant]

If it's Intel based, yes, as long as you control the secure boot keys.

I don't know about you lot...

[CaptainOfSpray]

but I don't want a separate device just to do Office...I want whatever device I use to be able to run "everything I use" so I can combine stuff, rework, sort, juggle, scrape and reformat all that stuff into one coherent work output. If, like the Surface, the other apps from other suppliers are either not present or unusable with a touch screen, it's dead in the water. And it's dead in the water if I have to buy again software I've already paid for on another platform. And don't say Cloud. Cloud is dead because using it makes me legally non-compliant.

Re:I don't know about you lot...

[nephilimsd]

The thing about the Surface Pro is that apps from third parties are available. All of the apps that are used on a traditional Windows desktop are available. This includes entertainment options such as Steam or any Windows games, productivity applications such as Adobe suite and Office suite, video or sound engineering software, CAD software, or anything else created in the last 20-some odd years. Not all (closer to none) of the applications are optimized for touch, that's true, but that's what bluetooth mice and detachable keyboards are for. When those are inconvenient, you get to covert to a simple mode, where web browsing, netflix, emails, and whatever other tablet-specific applications you want are available to use. I own an original Surface Pro, and so far it has been the best all-purpose computing device I have owned. With the 8 GB RAM upgrade in the Surface Pro 3, I might actually consider upgrading. The biggest drawback is that Windows 8 is still frustrating to navigate. If they would add an option where Metro is the default screen when keyboard is not connected, and goes away completely when a keyboard is present, the device would be perfect.

Re: Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

Bill Gates personally paid my $5000 to test this comment! Copy and paste this on 20 other Slashdot articles using internet explorer and he will pay you too!

Re:Go die

[Austerity Empowers]

They're doing a lot of good trying to recreate the market they killed in the first place!

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

For one, though you will undoubtedly disagree, they ensured the popularization the PC. The computing world, like it or not, would not be what it is today without the efforts of Microsoft.

Now, you'll probably try and disagree (as other people have done in later discussions on this topic), and claim that Apple did that. I would suggest you go and do your research, and then actually try out Integer Basic in an emulator and then try AppleSoft Basic. The "soft" in "AppleSoft" is from Microsoft. The Apple ][ was a piece of shit (source: I owed one. I suffered the pain.) before they paid Microsoft to write the OS for them. Virtually every other early computer, that I'm aware of, ran some version of BASIC, and most of them were coded by Microsoft. And like it or not, being able to develop simply for a computer is what made them popular back in the early 80s.

So yeah, you should be grateful for what Microsoft has done for you.

cue flamebait tag.

They'd have to make the tablet an open platform

[Karmashock]

I can build a PC from components that can be purchased. If I could the same with a tablet then microsoft might be able to get somewhere with recreating the PC.

Let me buy a tablet motherboard, a tablet CPU, a tablet memory chip, a tablet enclosure... and then push a tablet OS onto it... and yeah... the tablet might become very much like the PC.

But if I can't buy the components to build one then it never will be the PC.

A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[erp_consultant]

and so too is Surface. It's trying to do too much and ends up not doing anything very well. Who wants a 12 inch tablet? Nobody. How about a 12 inch laptop? Could be ok for some tasks but it's a crappy keyboard - and it runs Windows 8.

The Macbook Air, which it's being compared to, is a far superior productivity device than the Surface. It has a real keyboard included (and a good one too).

Sorry but I just don't see Surface as best of breed. I can see people buying them hoping to have some sort of magical all in one device and ending up bringing another tablet along anyway. Because the Surface doesn't cut it as a tablet.

7 inch tablets are the way to go if you're going to have one and MS made a huge strategic miss by not offering one. Larger tablets are dying off in popularity now so who is this thing marketed to?

Re: A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[Anonymous Coward]

A camal is a word used by illiterates like you

Re:A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[Radical Moderate]

As an Air owner, I have to agree. I can't see the point of touch, unless you're walking around with it I'd much rather use a keyboard/trackpad. And my Air is light enough that I can walk around and use it for short periods if I need to. For actual productivity, the laptop form factor is far superior, I can actually type on it in my lap. And as noted, I've found Windows 8 to be an exercise in pain. I do know people who really like the Pro, but I just don't see it.

Re:A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[erp_consultant]

"I can't see the point of touch, unless you're walking around with it" - Bingo. If you need a device on the shop room floor or a warehouse then maybe the Surface is a good choice. Or perhaps you work in a hospital and need something to record patient notes.

But that's a pretty limited market. The fact of the matter is that the laptop is already the best form factor for productivity type work. Keyboard, mouse, good sized screen. Tablets are for goofing around on for the most part. Let's keep the two form factors separate.

Re:A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[MightyMartian]

It's the way I work. I have no interest in 10" or larger tablets. The 7" tablet seems the absolutely perfect size for me. I had a chance to play with an iPad 2 and I just thought it was way too large.

By the same token, when I use a laptop, I feel 15" is absolute perfect. Big enough screen to do serious work, and providing it has a decent keyboard, I'm a happy guy.

The Surface Pro 3 doesn't hit any of my buttons. Too big for what I use a tablet for. Too small for what I use a notebook for. Worst of all, it's price so high I can buy a 7" tablet AND a 15" notebook and still be ahead money wise at the end of the day.

Re:A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[cboslin]

It's the way I work. I have no interest in 10" or larger tablets. The 7" tablet seems the absolutely perfect size for me. I had a chance to play with an iPad 2 and I just thought it was way too large.

By the same token, when I use a laptop, I feel 15" is absolute perfect. Big enough screen to do serious work, and providing it has a decent keyboard, I'm a happy guy.

The Surface Pro 3 doesn't hit any of my buttons. Too big for what I use a tablet for. Too small for what I use a notebook for. Worst of all, it's price so high I can buy a 7" tablet AND a 15" notebook and still be ahead money wise at the end of the day.

Great response. The last point would kill it for most people. You first point is significant based on experience for me.

Pre Microsoft buying Skype, I 86ed my over $100 per month cellular plan/phone and moved to a Linux handheld + Wifi solution for less than $9 per month. Ran with that for almost 4 years, however Microsofts lack of support for Linux made me say goodbye to Skype.

My first handheld 'full' computer (Linux) had a small 4" screen. No way it could replace a laptop or desktop. As others have stated, need that keyboard. My biggest use was as a Skype phone via Wifi, never got into the geo capabilities with it, though it had two micro SD slots, which I notice no new devices have. Loved that and strongly believe it is a good reason to buy one tablet over another...does it have 2 micro SD slots. You will use them if it does. Also had 512MB of RAM and could play HD content as of 2006. We have come a long way baby!

My second handheld, a 10" Android from ZaReason (ZaTAb ZT2) is great, love it, but still would not want to do coding, word processing, spreadsheets, database work etc...for the same reason, like that Keyboard. Sadly only one micro SD slot. While I find Android a bit more limiting than a full Linux laptop, it is less limiting than any Apple or Microsoft tablet would be.

I see a tablet as a plus if you can do some things on it, but never as a laptop/desktop replacement. I think we are in agreement there.

The screen size of the new Microsoft tablet is too large and I just know it would get sat on, bent, cracked. If I went above my 10" android, I would get one of those Two-screen Linux tablets that opens like a book, that way each side can help protect the other when the tablet 'book' is closed. Heck I got a touch screen protector and case for my 10" ZtTAb as it was. Also having two screens is pretty important in order to do something on one screen while referencing another. Or when interrupted, to handle the interruption and move back to the task at hand with minimal interruption.

For laptops, I like my 17" Zareason Verix 530, would not mind the 15.6" screen being bigger, heck I would get a 21" screen if ZaReason made a laptop with one. At least I have 16GB of triple channel memory and two harddrives, so my laptop can be used to do 100% of what I did with a desktop. At work and/or home office I always have a second monitor anyway. Its become my primary device and I plan to turn my desktop (Breeze 4220, w/ 4 cores) into a glorified server + TV Wall when I get a 60" LG TV. There is linux software that lets you control the cores independently of each other....very cool.

When I use my tablet now, I do miss a keyboard, have not bothered to add one yet, I find myself reading a book, learning a new language (Italian), playing a game, etc... Hope to use it buy and sell stocks down the road, but have not attempted that yet. Also use the micro SD slot with a 64GB micro SD card...can search, review, look up information on documents, both those created by me and those downloaded as reference, but would not want to edit them on that tablet.

If I get PHP successfully running as I believe I can, than I will really want a second micro SD slot. Don't like the idea of needing a hub to do work, though that would be a work around. Imagine running any PHP applicati

Re:A camal is a horse designed by committee...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know your opinion is writ in stone and whole markets move to serve it, but as a roving tech consultant, I have been waiting for a screen of more than 10" so it can be viable to do things like whip up network diagrams and the like without having to connect to an external monitor. Shit, I'd take a 15" instead if they offered it.

wow you got that out of it?

[db10]

Sounds like someone reads minds, or this is just a strategy statement/advertisement

Re:Go die

[TechyImmigrant]

> try out Integer Basic in an emulator and then try AppleSoft Basic.

Why in an emulator? I just run them directly on my Apple 2e. The Integer ROM is great because it comes with the mini assembler and sweet 16.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

They're doing a lot of good trying to recreate the market they killed in the first place!

Obviously everyone will want an XBox One with Kinect support for all their computing needs.

This makes good sense

[paiute]

My greatgrandfather invented a trunk and a radiator to hook onto a horse.

Looks like a great product,

[BLToday]

Looks like a great product if I only look at the specs and pitch. But unfortunately I already own a Surface with Touch Keyboard, and that has tainted my impression. The original Surface is slow, keyboard is doesn't work well, Surface needs a flat surface to actually work well, and the UX.

Improvements:
* Slow => fixed by using Intel.
* Keyboard => no longer the mostly useless Touch Keyboard
* I'm hoping it's actually usable in my lap

Still issues (general experience with Win8; 1 desktop, 1 Surface RT):
* UX: there's no way getting around it, Win8 is schizo. In theory, on a Surface, I would never need to go to the desktop. But I have to switch to the Desktop to change settings like sleep mode timer and the built in version of Office. Win8 will some time let applications will install tons of random icons to the Start Screen, but not include the important ones such as the actual application link. Weird.

Hover over Flash elements is a serious usability issue. It works maybe 30% of the time in touch interface, the other 70% I would have to reach for the keyboard and hover my mouse over the element to control it.

The color of tiles does not make any sense. The tiles waste too much empty space and the text is too small for quickly identifying applications. I'm not 18 anymore so I don't have eagle eyes.

Trying to restore even the Surface back to "factory" takes 2+ hours. Then at least another 2 hours getting it updated. Why?

Re:Looks like a great product,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the 2 hours of update nonsense before you can use a patched and secure Surface is a nonsense. You get a new shiny gadget and they put you through that crap. An iPad just works. An Android tab mostly just works. A Surface has to reboot 5 times during its updates. I have the original RT. It's a great (if slightly slow these days) device. \but the consumer UX is just fucked from the off.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

> For one, though you will undoubtedly disagree, they ensured the popularization the PC. Personal computers were being sold throughout the 1980s, and there were cheaper entrants to the market (including Atari and Commodore) which were more advanced than comparable PCs right up until the early 90s. PCs excelled primarily because of the bus and drive expansion, and whatever DOS they'd originally shipped with was likely to become the market leader. > The computing world, like it or not, would not be what it is today without the efforts of Microsoft. It could be better, or we could have had a different dominant desktop OS provider that made fewer mistakes, and had it all more sewn up. Since this is what MS still want to do, why do you want to let them?

Multi-window display and precise text selection

[tepples]

Windows is for real work. OS X is for real work. X11/Linux is for real work. iOS, not so much.

In an operating system oriented toward focused activity, the user can display two applications at once, one displaying a document that the user is creating and the other displaying a document to which the user is referring. Despite tablet displays being well over twice as big as those of phones, very few not-Windows tablets support this. And in hardware oriented toward focused activity, the user can quickly and precisely position the insertion point in a text entry area. Let me know when these features become standard on mobile devices running not-Windows.

Re:Go die

[unixisc]

Shouldn't the credit for that really go to Intel?

It was Intel, who in order to ward off the perceived threats they faced from PowerPC as well as other RISC vendors, as well as x86 clone makers - AMD, Cyrix... that they invested more in their fabs and R&D, and did what they could to make their boxes the most cost effective. In the long term, DEC couldn't sustain it for long, and neither could HP or SGI. Nobody made not just microprocessors, but equally cost effective peripheral chips the way Intel did, and that's what saw to it that computers were inexpensive. DEC made a valiant effort w/ their Multias and SGI w/ their Indys, but nobody could really come close.

Where Microsoft did help was in making their software adapt for SMP, multi-processing, multi-threading & the like. While they did ignore making RISC versions of their bestselling s/w, they did make their software adapt for more multi-threading applications - as did other vendors. As a result, Intel and AMD could both toss more cores into a CPU and get appreciable performance boosts. But the other OSs - Linux, the BSDs, OS-X also made good use of this as well.

Lightweight

[tepples]

But will the notebook be as light to carry as this $900 device? This device is for people willing to pay a premium for portability. If you're willing to compromise on the CPU, you could always buy a Transformer Book for less.

Re:Lightweight

[0123456]

But will the notebook be as light to carry as this $900 device?

Who cares?

I don't remember the last time I said 'damn, I wish this laptop was smaller and lighter'. I remember the last time I said 'damn, I wish this laptop didn't have such a crappy keyboard'. I remember the last time I said 'damn, I wish this laptop didn't have such a crappy touchpad' (it was last night, in fact).

If you want portability, the Surface is already too big. I had a 10" Android tablet and it's barely been used since I bought a 7" to replace it. You're already into 'needs a bag to carry around' rather than 'fits in my pocket', so why not get a decent laptop for less?

Re:Lightweight

[tepples]

You're already into 'needs a bag to carry around' rather than 'fits in my pocket', so why not get a decent laptop for less?

Because there's a difference between a convenient, generic satchel and an obvious laptop bag that screams "steal me".

Re:Lightweight

[0123456]

ecause there's a difference between a convenient, generic satchel and an obvious laptop bag that screams "steal me".

Does anyone even steal laptops any more? Surely it's not worth the hassle now they're so cheap?

Re:Lightweight

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't remember the last time I said 'damn, I wish this laptop was smaller and lighter'.

You said that about a tablet when you replaced your 10" Android tablet with a 7" one, so why does it apply to a tablet but not a tablet w/keyboard?

If you want portability, the Surface is already too big. I had a 10" Android tablet and it's barely been used since I bought a 7" to replace it. You're already into 'needs a bag to carry around' rather than 'fits in my pocket', so why not get a decent laptop for less?

Why do you need a bag to carry a 10" tablet around? Are you one of those people that always wears cargo pants just to fit a 7" tablet in?

Microsoft's profit center ...

[PPH]

... was its Office productivity software. Once this was not needed, then Android, iOS and any other platfor would do the job. To properly use Office apps, you need a keyboard. I don't mean poke out the occasional e-mail on a tablet. I mean create documents, diagrams, etc. in an environment where productivity counts. The attempt to push a touch screen interface on to content creators was demonstrated by the 'Windows Hate' reaction.

Tablets and PCs (OK, laptops too) are different markets, best served by different UIs and maybe operating systems. If Microsoft wants to resurect the PC, a tablet is the wrong form factor.

Not really a laptop replacement

[berchca]

It might seem fussy, but I don't really think it is: the biggest trouble with MS's claim that the Surface can double as a laptop is how poorly it fits on your lap. Barring a keyboard hinge, you have to hike the thing in close so that you can use the stand on the back, which, for me, is too close (arms bent like I'm mocking a chicken). Also, it doesn't allow me to get the proper angle of the screen, plus the whole device is really wobbly.

I guess this doesn't matter if you never put your laptop in your lap, but if you do, there are far better keyboards available for the iPad.

Re:Not really a laptop replacement

[berchca]

Whoops, I meant '_lacking_ a hinge', not barring...

Re:Not really a laptop replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm of the same opinion, but I think you and I are the constant commuting type where the laptop is really something that sits in your lap to do work. For a lot of people a laptop is a portable computer that you shuttle between desk a, b, flight c, hotel d in which case the current solution does work.

I want the surface to work for me...I've tried having it work for me...it really is just too flimsy a solution to be used on a train or bus or out on a park bench.

Re:Not really a laptop replacement

[cbhacking]

The new version is effectively hinged (the kickstand supports any angle out to 150 degrees). The larger form factor and additional keyboard magnets will help with a lot of the wobble, too.

Hit the nail on the head

[giltwist]

I had used a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 all through graduate school. It was great for me then because I did all my typing at my home desktop or in one of the university's many computer labs. I did not need a full computer to be mobile, especially when I've lost several laptops to damaged power jacks over the years. Now that I'm in the corporate world and need to be able to work on a report in a hotel or at a client's place of business, I needed something portable. However, I still wanted a tablet for personal use. The Surface Pro 2 filled exactly that niche. It's got honest-to-goodness Microsoft Office for when I need it and a pretty decent keyboard (if you disable the glitchy trackpad) to boot. At home, I disconnect the keyboard and watch Netflix in bed. The pen is even better for drawing than my Wacom tablet, because I can draw right on the screen. I'm a young, technologically-savvy professional. I'm the target audience for the Surface Pro line.

Re:Hit the nail on the head

[Anonymous Coward]

You work so much, that you can't separate work from personal life, and think that's a good thing?
Well, there are a lot of people like you, but not enough to make it profitable.

Obvious Advertisement

[lwriemen]

...is obvious. This is why I don't visit /. as much as I used to.

MS should focus on winnable battles

[aussersterne]

The Windows battle is largely over, and they have lost.

On mobile devices, which are the most ubiquitous form of computing on the planet today, they are effectively out of the game for this round. Their only shot there is to become the next big innovator launching the next paradigm of computing—something that MS has never been able to do before.

In productivity computing, a decade ago it was still a Windows world, but I've seen shop after shop effectively go Mac in recent years. First the door is opened—and once employees and/or departments are able to opt for Macs to do their work, the balance goes from 90/10 Windows to 90/10 Mac in the space of one or two upgrade cycles. Apple significantly outpaced the PC industry overall in unit shipment performance over 2013 (particularly 4Q) and this matches what I'm seeing in business meetings across partnerships—senior reps from four companies are in the room and now the Windows guy is the odd guy out and everybody snickers a little. Or you're in a multi-hour videoconference on GoToMeeting and the one guy that's sharing a Windows screen rather than a Mac screen stands out like a sore thumb. It's the opposite of what you'd see over the '90s and '00s.

But Exchange and Office remain ubiquitous—more and more people in business are using a Mac but their Mac is invaribaly outfitted with MS Office (because iWork simply doesn't compare) and their entire business lives are accessed from Outlook. Finding ways to better integrate mobile Android/iOS offerings into their Exchange/Office universe would open a natural space for strong growth and continued dominance in critical business infrastructure. The focus on Windows and hardware is a head-scratcher.

The most worrying thing for Microsoft is that I've started periodically receiving OpenOffice/LibreOffice/Google Docs/Drive word processing and spreadsheet documents over the last year or so. That never, ever happened for the first decade and a half of my life in business (since about 1997) and now, suddenly, I've received about 20 documents like this this year from people at five different companies—without anyone mentioning it or even apologizing ("Hope you can open this!").

I don't know if the investment required to make a plausible attempt at reversing Windows' downward slide in market position is worthwhile. I suspect it's far more important for MS to shore up and grow their Exchange/Office business. Nobody is really challenging them yet in this space, but if a viable competitor were to emerge, the forces and trends related to Windows now pull *away* from Microsoft platforms rather than irresistibly toward them.

Re:MS should focus on winnable battles

[Anonymous Coward]

First the door is openedâ"and once employees and/or departments are able to opt for Macs to do their work, the balance goes from 90/10 Windows to 90/10 Mac in the space of one or two upgrade cycles.

What's it like, living in Fantasy Land?

Re:MS should focus on winnable battles

[aussersterne]

Cute. But check out the Gartner numbers (amongst others) for the last few years.

Overall PC shipments were down 12% from 4Q12-4Q13. Meanwhile, Mac shipments were up over the same period by nearly 30%. While year-over-year PC shipments have been falling since 2011, Mac shipments have seen steady year-over-year growth for a decade.

In my corner of the SaaS world, it's clearly a Mac game now. I'm sure there are many areas where this is not the case. But the trend numbers are not good for Microsoft at all, and when combined with the reception of Windows 8 (not just here but across trade press as well as online generally), and the comparison of tablet unit shipments vs. PC unit shipments, I think MS is better off focusing on what MS products can be made mission-critical on other platforms, not on the continued dominance of their own platform.

Well, duh

[Anonymous Coward]

No-one else is targetting that market (which is debatable, as I believe Asus, at least, produce something similar?), because it's a tiny market. People aren't suddenly going to drop their laptops, Android tablets and iPads to buy a Surface that costs twice as much as any of them and leaves them stuck running Windows.

This finally has me pulling the trigger

[holophrastic]

I've avoided tablets, laptops, and smartphones until now, purely because I can't possibly get any work safely done on any of them, and I've got zero interest in infotainment as recreation. I don't need to watch youtube videos of concerts -- I just go to the concerts.

But this is actually suitable as a minimal desk when I'm on vacation -- which means that I can stay on vacation longer with less cover. All I need is a car adapter and I'll be done.

Look at me, I'm finally buying a portable computer. Wow, 2014.

Re:This finally has me pulling the trigger

[modi123]

Heh - yes.. this is what I was going to post! It seems like a solid, and compelling, reason to jump into the tablet world..finally.

Failed combo

[EmperorOfCanada]

I have seen many combo products in my life fall flat on their face. Basically if you try to be both you usually fail at being either. At this point people want their tablets for the consumption of things too big for their phones. So books, movies, slightly bigger games, and better web surfing. Few people want much more than basic consumption. With their laptop/desktops people want to create. This means a bigger screen, great input devices, and enough horsepower to handle the tools as most people are in a hurry to create content for school or work.

So people don't mind so much if their laptop is a bit big if it then doesn't get in their way of getting things done, such as hesitating, not being able to run some critical work related application, or running out of juice. And with this being a business/school tool cost is not a huge factor.

But with a tablet most people are doing one thing at a time so sheer horsepower is not needed, plus they are doing simplistic clicking and swiping so more than a touch screen isn't usually needed. So they want battery life, they want lightness, and generally not being work related it needs to be cheap.

So it looks like the new surface is the worst of both worlds, a compromised battery, compromised screen size, compromised input devices, compromised ability to run all applications, and a huge compromise on the price.

So I suspect that they are going to aim this at the "mobile professional" the reality being that the mobile professional who can afford a dataplan will not be doing much along the lines of content creation as they have people for that. So for the mobile professional they will want the lightest coolest tablet or large screened mobile phone around, with gobs of battery life.

This leaves the non-mobile professional who should just buy a laptop or desktop.

But I foresee a huge number of bought off news outlets blah blahing about how the surface will change the face of computing, and I also foresee a bunch of 2nd rate broadcast TV shows where they pull out their surface to show the crime photos or whatnot and one of the second rate stars will say, "Hey that is cool, I didn't know you could click the keyboard on like that, how very cool and available June15th."

Great for work. Not so much at home.

[Pontiac]

I have a Dell Venue 8 pro.

Great little tablet powered by an Atom processor and Windows 8.1
Call it a baby surface pro if you like that costs $250

Now for work surface is a great tool. very portable with full windows desktop available when needed. You can't ask for better integration and portability when working in a windows dominated office setting.

At home not so much and it's not the tablets fault.. It's the applications. Overall Android and iOS apps just work better. That is jut my opinion anyway.

If MS could get some better entertainment/social apps out there that match the functionality of its competition it could gain some ground.

Sadly since I can't attach my personal computer to the company network I can't use it there so it just sits at home collecting dust.

What would make me use it more? hmm maybe touch screen controls and on screen keyboards that freaking work in minecraft on windows 8.1 .. You hear me Mojang? I want this!

Surface Pro vs. Surface (RT)

[Woadan]

The Surface Pro has always been a full Windows OS install, from the very first incarnation to the current one.

The Surface, and its predecessor the Surface RT, is the Windows OS on a chip. And that's the one that "competes" with iOS and Android tablets.

This is a non-starter from the get-go!

Some colleges are requiring them

[Anonymous Coward]

Some colleges are requiring Surface tablets. Smart marketing on Microsoft's part.

It actually looks good

[ErichTheRed]

I have the original Surface Pro, and all the complaints about lousy keyboard covers and the fact that it's not enough of a PC to be a laptop replacement are justified. But, if they bring back more desktop functionality in the next Windows update, this could work for them. 8.1 Update brought back just enough desktop (removing the absolute requirement for the Charms bar, etc.) and if they bring back the Start menu plus a few other tweaks, they might have an audience.

I think everyone just went "OMG iPad, OMG Android tablets" a couple years ago, and went too far over to the "everything's a tablet" camp. Tablets are great for media consumers but really awful for content creation, and that includes any sort of Office for Touch coming out. They do replace the PC for many people, but not all. I still think there is a place for workstations and laptops -- maybe not so much desktop PCs anymore, but I can't see using Excel beyond the simplest uses on a tablet. A laptop that can be docked to a huge monitor, keyboard and mouse can these days be a desktop replacement -- not so much a tablet yet.

This new Surface Pro looks like it's poised to take over the "executive laptop" range like the ThinkPad X series or similar -- small screen, weight optimized, with just enough features to make it usable. I'm actually glad they're not chasing the consumer market by making a Surface Mini, etc. The reality is that Windows will probably be mainly a business OS as the home PC market erodes, so I think they're right to target this market. I also happen to think that there is a lot of life left in the content-creation device market, despite what Gartner, etc. think. Those devices just might not all run Windows, but I don't know if Chrome OS, etc. are the answer either.

The big factors for me are the bigger screen (Surface Pro 3 is just at the low end for usability for me -- I prefer 15" or 14" laptops.) and the keyboard. I really hope they got the keyboard right -- I continue to buy ThinkPads just for the keyboard and TrackPoint. I guess the problem is that they can't just roll out a 14" tablet with a folding keyboard and have a differentiated device.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

[previous anonymous coward continuing]

Why in an emulator? I just run them directly on my Apple 2e.

Fair enough :). Mine died a good ten years ago, and I [somewhat reasonably, I thought :)] assume that most people don't have one sitting around. I actually added the "in an emulator" as an after thought since I thought people would have a problem with me suggesting that everyone had access to an Apple ][.

because it comes with the mini assembler

I think we're actually in agreement though (although perhaps not on the singular point regarding Integer Basic). Ease of development (and access to the tools to do it) was awesome, and was, in a large part, responsible for the growth in Microcomputers back in the 80s. And Microsoft had a huge hand in making software development possible for the masses.

"Good enough" -- the slayer of empires

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of what killed SGI, HP, and other RISC vendors was the fact that commodity hardware became "good enough", and 3D graphics went from the realm of high end workstations to part of every single bargain basement PC. High-end SCSI controllers made way to "good enough" ATA-66 drives, then SATA drives.

Another part was that application makers ended up standardizing on Windows as "good enough", where before, they would make versions for Solaris, Ultrix, UNICOS, Dell UNIX, BSDI, IRIX, and AIX. At best, an application vendor might support Linux, but Windows has become "good enough" for most things.

"Good enough" is what describes computing in the past decade. Even though archival-grade tape drives are arguably one of the best ways of backing up a machine, hard disks are "good enough". ECC RAM was the standard for workstations, but it got dropped. Computer cases that could withstand almost any post-SHTF scenario gave way to plastic enclosures, as they are "good enough".

Things may change. Right now, there is so much lipstick on the 8086/8088 pig that it is a wax model of a race car, but eventually there is only so far that that architecture, even with AMD's 64 bit extensions can go. Eventually computing will move to emulating legacy code and using low level architectures with hundreds of registers, but it may be a ways away, especially with the fact that we still have not gotten to the "lets add tons of cores" phase yet.

Re:"Good enough" -- the slayer of empires

[unixisc]

Issue w/ the 'let's add tons of cores' is that once you get to the diminishing returns point - where tossing more cores into the box does not improve performance, all that would do would add cost, hardly an appealing proposition for either vendors or customers. At that point, the question would be whether good enough is still good enough, or whether the entire code base needs to be migrated to a better ISC.

Re: "Good enough" -- the slayer of empires

[ci4]

Why is this posted as AC for goodness sake? I would sign under this any day.

Re:"Good enough" -- the slayer of empires

[Anonymous Coward]

Things may change. Right now, there is so much lipstick on the 8086/8088 pig that it is a wax model of a race car, but eventually there is only so far that that architecture, even with AMD's 64 bit extensions can go. Eventually computing will move to emulating legacy code and using low level architectures with hundreds of registers, but it may be a ways away, especially with the fact that we still have not gotten to the "lets add tons of cores" phase yet.

Most bargain bin computers (heck, most smart phones) are "good enough" for most people.
I think it will only change when/if there is a "killer app" that requires a more optimized system then
people will buy the new architecture for the killer app and be happy to emulate their x86 code on
it as the existing x86 code would run fine in an emulator on a fast PC.

The other option will be for x86 to hobble along until android,etc.. becomes the dominant OS and
sufficiently fast to run a x86 emulator on android.

Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Microsoft is trying to CONTROL the PC market. Because full contrl over YOUR hardware and software will be in THEIR hands.

Not particularly good at anything.

[wcrowe]

Very often, when you try to get a single device to do two jobs, it does neither job very well. I suspect the Surface is in this category. I have yet to see one in the wild, and I do not know anyone interested in purchasing one. I really don't want one either. I'm not saying the Surface is bad -- I'm pretty indifferent to it -- but I wonder if the market is as lucrative as MS thinks it is.

Re:Go die

[njnnja]

The aqueduct?

Dear MS...

[slashmydots]

Dear Microsoft,
I can type 100WPM on my desktop keyboard, it doesn't have a battery, it has a 25" screen, can run Photoshop, can run all of our custom 3rd party corporate software, can properly be controlled by group policies, has a 0% chance that I will drop it, and has a useable life rating of greater than 2 years, unlike your tablet. So no, fuck you, you're wrong. I want a damn desktop PC and so does everyone who's not an idiot.

Recreate???

[rrohbeck]

So one niche product by one supplier that isn't exactly loved means recreating the market now?

niche

[Anonymous Coward]

They might find a niche, but it's still a niche. Goodbye and good riddance Microsoft.

Share price

[sjbe]

Were I a Microsoft shareholder, I'd be happy.

Why? Their stock price has barely budged in the last 10 years and the dividend yield is about 2.5% which is pathetic given how much cash the company throws off. It's had a little run up in the last 12 months but if I were a MSFT shareholder, I'd be pissed.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

> So yeah, you should be grateful for what Microsoft has done for you.

MS has done NOTHING for me. MS is a for-profit organization in a capitalist society; they do whatever it takes to increase the value of the company for their shareholders. I may or may not buy their products, and I sure as hell owe NO gratitude whatsoever to them.

Microsoft should ask people who don't like them

[erroneus]

Seriously. If you want to know what's wrong and what you can do about it, start asking the people who don't want to use your stuff why!! It's ask if Microsoft listens only to its remaining fans and only wants to recycle what it has built over the last 20 years. My middle son who is among the least technical people I know wouldn't want a Windows phone because he thinks it will get trashed like his PC running Windows. I don't try to dissuade him from that view but I didn't exactly encourage it either.

Microsoft would to well to listen to the people who don't like them. I see no indication they ever do that.

And as far a rich and powerful companies go? Microsoft is among the few who could afford to spend a lot of money remaking itself.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it run Office and come with a keyboard and mouse?

Bravo Microsoft ! Apple iOS is a TOY

[Latinhypercube]

Great to see Microsoft coming back, I'm sure Balmer leaving helped immensely. To all the U.S. consumers who don't 'get' why microsoft have made another great computer, go play candy crush on your toy computer. Apple is no longer about computing, they are about consumption and they are aimed at children and housewives. Microsoft is where real work gets done. Where things are actually designed and created, as opposed to bought and played with. The locked prison ecosystem of iOS is a dead end and offers nothing to this economy but a giant bloated Apple sitting on billions of dollars in an offshore bank account (paying no taxes back to the country either). Microsoft built the IT economy. If it had been Apple we would never have had ANY open technologies. I know Microsoft are no angels, but compared to the dead end of Apple and Google they are gods.

Re:Bravo Microsoft ! Apple iOS is a TOY

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember the time when Apple was all about empowering creativity. Back when they would cater to artists, writers and publishers. They almost went broke doing that too. May be now switched to courting the mindless masses for the same reason as our politicians - there are many more people in that category.

Jack of all trades can work

[sjbe]

It's a nice product, but it isn't obviously cheaper than each of its uses separately, and it's not going to be the best tablet, the best laptop, or the best desktop.

I could make the same argument about my smartphone. It's not the best phone, not the best camera, not the best tablet computer and not the best PDA. But it's good enough at all of those that I don't need a separate phone, tablet, camera or PDA. Nothing wrong with using best of breed gear if you really need a top notch laptop but multi-function devices can be really useful without being the best at a specific task.

Ha Ha Ha Snort Ha Ha Ha Giggle Ha Ha Ha Ha ...

[WillAffleckUW]

No.

Zune city.

Hit the restart button, cause it ain't flying in the real world.

high price + shitty video = meh.

[rogoshen1]

Had to look around a bit; but even the top end model only has an intel 4400 for video..

But, if it weren't for that (and the 2k price tag on the top end model) I'd pick one up. And I'd even look past windows 8.

It could easily replace my ultrabook and my tablet, and when on a docking station, my desktop (though again, the lack of a proper video card would probably hold it back).

Of course, this is what they're going for with it in the first place

Re:Go die

[TechyImmigrant]

For a superior Apple 2 experience I recommend this.

Re:Go die

[cusco]

MS really did two things right early on. They made their OS easy to program to, and they supported every mishmash configuration of hardware and software that you could get to install. My mom's co-worker had three computers on her desk to do billing with; a Wang word processor, a CP/M machine with (IIRC) Visi-Calc, and some IBM monster with a flat-file database for contact management. To bill she would pull up the customer info in the DB, the hours billed in the spreadsheet, and type it all into the Wang.

When she got a Windows 3.1 machine and could copy and paste info from one app to the other it utterly revolutionized her work flow. It changed the dynamics of her entire office as well, since the bosses could now buy just one less-expensive computer per desk even the receptionist ended up with a PC. The economics of scale involved in putting a PC on every desk brought the price down to the point where a PC in the home was actually affordable.

Re:Microsoft for business is bullshit.

[cusco]

Sure there is. Support, file format portability, networking, Group Policy and Active Directory.

Still too expensive

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still a 12" screen for MacBook money. I got an Asus laptop with a 15" screen cheaper. And a MacBookPro with a 15" retina screen for more money, but it's a workhorse.

I always ask this: Who is MS's target audience for this thing? Who is buying it? The last Surface is apparently in a warehouse somewhere because no one bought it.

I'm not buying a Surface Pro 3 right now...

[ZeoRanger]

...because I already have one of the original Surface Pro devices, and I actually really like it. And yes, we all hate microsoft around here, I know... I still like it.

I picked up a 1st Gen pro when Best Buy had them on sale a few months ago - they were selling the 128GB version for $499, which was less than I paid for my original (1st gen) iPad, so I thought I'd give it a try.

It's actually a decent little gaming machine, especially considering that it's using the 'onboard' intel graphics. I managed to google around and find a compatible driver so I could pair a playstation 3 controller with it via bluetooth, which also registers the controller via xinput / emulates an x360 controller, and it runs everything gaming-related I've thrown at it so far beautifully. This includes several steam games (Portal / Portal 2, Rayman Legends, Castle Crashers, Geometry Wars), several 'standalone' PC games, (League of Legends, Minecraft, Diablo 3) and an assortment of console emulators. You do have to occasionally turn down the resolution or tone down the eye candy a bit, but it's not especially noticeable when you're playing on a 10" screen, and I haven't had to drop anything below 1280x720 to get good framerates yet. I don't expect it to play Crysis, but to be fair, i haven't tried anything on that end of the 'hardcore' requirements spectrum either.

I also have started using it with FL Studio to do some audio editing and messing around with stuff - and that works incredibly well too.

I have heard of the surface 'music cover' and would be interested in buying one to play with, but I have yet to find one for sale from Microsoft - they don't offer them either in their brick-and-mortar stores, or on their store website... You can 'demo' one in their stores though, which I have done, and which made me want to purchase one to take home and play with more, but it seems that 'shut up and take my money' doesn't always work, sadly... (granted, I know people have them on eBay, and I may go that route at some point if I decide I want one badly enough...)

I use it to take notes in meetings at work, either typing in Word or using the stylus and Windows Journal. I use it as an RDP client to remote to other systems and do stuff as needed, for which it's VERY convenient.

The screen is decent - I would say that 1920x1080, while technically impressive to the masses (or something), is not a suitable resolution for a 10" device, at least for me. Also, 1920x1080, with 150% 'scaling' turned on (the default) causes problems with some desktop applications. As such, i have dropped the desktop resolution to 1366x768 for daily use, which still allows the 'tablet' apps to run and also allows me to actually SEE the desktop (and the contents thereof) when I'm out and about. I'm glad it has the capability to run a higher resolution, though, because I do occasionally connect it up to an external display.

The kickstand on the thing is actually a really great feature. And yes, I know how dumb that sounds.

All in all, i've been very pleasantly surprised with this thing. It's a good general-purpose device. I don't think I'd ever want to use it as my primary PC, but it's an awesome secondary system, and it's a great portable device (it beats the hell out of dragging around the laptop I used to carry with me to do the same kinds of things).

To be completely fair though, it's got some issues too.

- The touchscreen acts wonky sometimes - you can touch a single point on the screen and it will register multiple touches in different spots - which is really annoying when you're trying to enter text using the on-screen keyboard. It doesn't happen that often, and usually wiping off the screen and trying again will fix it, but it's still worth mentioning.

- The cover (I have the 'type cover') will sometimes randomly disconnect from the device. Pulling it away from the device and then reconnecting it will fix this, but this is also an annoyance. On the flipside, typing on the 'type cover

Wait

[Anonymous Coward]

..but Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet.

work laptop ?
personal tablet ?!?

excuse me one moment,
(ahhahahahahahahahahahahhahaha)^23

keep smokin' the crack boyos...

It's an interface problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

"MS is leading the way to a place where you carry you computer all the time and just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen."

Time for an Android version which can toggle between phon-ey interface and full desktop. I suspect OEMs resist this because it could cannibalize market share for other devices, but it's a natural fit. You can already easily connect conventional USB and Bluetooth peripherals to modern phones including external storage, VGA and HDMI adapters are dirt cheap, but when you connect to your nice monitor or TV you don't get a DESKTOP interface.

It's the obvious way towards LOTD, so the question remains why phone OEMs would rather infest their products with bloatware than take over far more marketshare.

"the lack of a smaller Surface tablet"

[triffid_98]

There are very important reasons for this. Probably the most important one is DPI scaling, something Windows never supported properly until quite recently (Windows 8.1). With 8.1 it's possible, but any non 'DPI aware' apps (AKA almost all of them) may still need a lot of tweaking. The only reliable way of handling this is either increase the size of the screen or lower the resolution.

For anyone who hasn't experienced this for themselves, 4K laptop displays + Windows 7 = complete train wreck.

Re:Go die

[jedidiah]

> For one, though you will undoubtedly disagree, they ensured the popularization the PC.

No. IBM associated their monopoly with the PC. Microsoft just took advantage of IBMs good name.

Also, Apple and friends established the microcomputing market. IBM just came in as a johnny-come-lately spoiler.

Ultimately IBMs marketing muscle and Microsoft's subsequent dominance RETARDED the industry and delayed the introduction of better hardware and better operating systems.

Fixating on Apple II misses Macintosh, Atari, Amiga & Acorn.

Compared to the DOS that lurked beneath any Microsoft product leading up to 1995, AppleDOS is not so bad. Even VMS is not so bad.

fail

[Tom]

inventing a new facet of the PC market â" one Microsoft alone is targeting

I wonder why...

Yes, nobody else ever thought about it, I'm sure that must be it. It's not like it could be that others did their due dilligence and figured out that this market simply doesn't exist.

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

MS really did two things right early on. They made their OS easy to program to, and they supported every mishmash configuration of hardware and software that you could get to install. My mom's co-worker had three computers on her desk to do billing with; a Wang word processor, a CP/M machine with (IIRC) Visi-Calc, and some IBM monster with a flat-file database for contact management. To bill she would pull up the customer info in the DB, the hours billed in the spreadsheet, and type it all into the Wang.

When she got a Windows 3.1 machine and could copy and paste info from one app to the other it utterly revolutionized her work flow. It changed the dynamics of her entire office as well, since the bosses could now buy just one less-expensive computer per desk even the receptionist ended up with a PC. The economics of scale involved in putting a PC on every desk brought the price down to the point where a PC in the home was actually affordable.

I can't imagine having to hear my mom telling me how great the Wang at work is.

MS Product Development Strategy

[Greyfox]

MS product development strategy is very predictable. They've used it on almost every product they've made since they started out. They see a successful product and they make a shitty copy of it. The shitty copy fails to generate much interest, but they refine it to a somewhat less shitty product. Two or three iterations later, they're slightly less shitty than most of the competition, and their sales pick up. Once they establish market dominance, they cease new feature development and move on to the next successful product. The one notable exception to this that I can think of is Bob. I don't know exactly what they were thinking, there. It did bring us Comic Sans, though, so I guess maybe that was their strategy.

I might be willing to consider a surface pro if I could get one at a steep discount and install Linux on it. Rumor has it you could on an older generation of the tablet. I wouldn't be surprised if MS has corrected that, though. It might make a decent replacement for my aging Linux-running core2 duo Macbook.

I still prefer Mac

[Anonymous Coward]

Air and Pro to either MS product.

Re:Microsoft for business is bullshit.

[chipschap]

"... file format portability ..."

Is that a joke? MS file formats have changed a lot over the years. Remember the introduction of docx?

OpenOffice reads more MS formats than MS does.

You have no idea what you're talking about

[cbhacking]

If by "without a mouse" you mean "with a trackpad, like the Surface covers all include" then yes I have. It works fine. Touch is fine for reading the docs, but for creating them, yes, you'll want the keyboard+trackpad cover. That would be why Microsoft sells them. Crazy, right?

I run legacy Windows software on Win8 all the time. I really don't even begin to understand your complaint there. It works exactly like it does on Win7 except the corners of windows are sharp and the borders aren't transparent. Oh, and the RAM usage is lower due to page combining. What the hell are you complaining about?

Surface Pro runs Win8 Pro, which is perfectly compatible with Active Directory unless you're still running your domain controllers on Server 2003 or older, in which case you have *FAR* bigger problems. GPO works just fine. If you absolutely must, though, you actually can install Win7 on a Surface Pro...

I'd ask if you've ever actually tried using one, but your moronic questions make it pretty clear you haven't. Or that you are utterly incompetent at all things IT-related, I suppose. In either case, your post is valueless and irrelevant.

Re:Microsoft for business is bullshit.

[cusco]

Try moving your files between a Mac, an Android device, an iToy and a Linux box and tell me how readable it is at the end. Move it between 50 Windows machines of a half dozen different versions and it will still be the identical file with the same format.

Re:Microsoft for business is bullshit.

[unapersson]

Isn't the first what we have to do already in the real world (though you missed out a Windows machine)? As for the second statement, it might be worth trying that experiment as you're likely to be surprised.

Re:Microsoft for business is bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

"... file format portability ..."

Is that a joke? MS file formats have changed a lot over the years. Remember the introduction of docx?

OpenOffice reads more MS formats than MS does.

The introduction of docx that happened almost 8 years ago? The file format for which Microsoft released free compatibility packs that allowed software written almost 12 years ago to read? That's your example of MS changing file formats a lot?

hope is the right word

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet.
So you replace a small nice cheap tablet and a powerful laptop with a nice keyboard with something that is bad at both and is equally expensive? You can still have 2 devices and choose the best one for the task. We tipically have not only 2, but more: smartphones, smart TVs, smart appliances, etc ... each one does one task and does it well.

"Symbolset thinks an MSFT product isn't very good"

[Toreo asesino]

News at 11. Glad to see the circle-jerk here is just as strong as ever - gotta reassure ourselves that MSFT is (still) on the brink of doom after all.

Some people don't want 2 devices for 2 separate functions; there's a real market for one device that can scale up when necessary, and the Surface 3 Pro is aimed at those people. Not everyone of course - some people enjoy having multiple devices, but a decent chunk, myself included just want one that you can accessorise into a full-on power PC if you want, which this does nicely.

Re: Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

Your kidding right? Maybe move to North Korea, not much evil profit happening there....

Re:"Symbolset thinks an MSFT product isn't very go

[symbolset]

It's Windows tablet. I don't have to be Nostradamus to see how that is going to go.

I don't want a cellular connection.

[ToddInSF]

I don't want anything to do with the cellular companies.

What I want is a wifi touchscreen that connects to my desktop computer. Something thin, light, that has great battery life, has a cam and mic and speaker so i can use voip wireless around the house/office if I want to.

Re:I don't want a cellular connection.

[cboslin]

I don't want anything to do with the cellular companies. What I want is a wifi touchscreen that connects to my desktop computer. Something thin, light, that has great battery life, has a cam and mic and speaker so i can use voip wireless around the house/office if I want to.

Could not agree more. Give me Wifi, allow me to configure and use as I need. No need for Cellular. Of course I need something better than Skype as Linux is not well supported in Skype. Sure it works, but you never know when it might not and new features take a year or more to filter down to the Linux version of Skype.

I would add, don't force me into any app that requires bandwidth use to use, not backups, not cloud, not anything.

Something old.. something new..

[doccus]

Something borrowed.. something Big Blue... I sense Bill Gates' influence at work here....

mmell LIBEL classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying I use hosts to evade police while I surf little boy porn http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS etc. too? Please -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (1 of 2)

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS etc. too? Please -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (2 of 2)

THEN RECANTING THAT LIBEL HERE http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

?

ERRONEOUSLY saying I was creating a DNS replacment (which it's not, it shores up DNS redirect security issues & resolves FASTER locally in RAM vs. remote lookups) -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

Saying VI can do all my APK Hosts File Engine can do (not) & running -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... when VI can't?

* Please... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You have SERIOUS issues - get over your ''geek angst" already (you're not even much of a 'geek' based on your technical screwups above)... apk

Re: Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are we even arguing what they did in the past? As we move forward it becomes more and more obvious that closed source is unsustainable in the modern world. Software is just a platform to support communication. We can't have closed source software any more than we could have a closed source language.

Do we let a single group control the future, or do we define the future together democraticly?

Re:Go die

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel provided the platform, but without Microsoft it wouldn't have gotten the popularity it needed to reach the economies of scale that enabled Intel to buy itself out from IBM and then go on to dominate computing. One of the big but understated things that Microsoft provided that made the PC become ubiquitous is enabling a wide variety of components to work together. Intel provided the underlying platform (i.e. the bus, CPU, I/O, etc) Microsoft provided the services + marketing + utilities + HQL + 3rd parties.

Sorry, the Linux geeks are not listening

[vandamme]

We've gotten over Microsoft. And we're not coming back.

mmell busted trying to ac post "support himself"

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO mmell caught trying to ac post "support himself" http://slashdot.org/comments.p... You're a fool that projected his own modus operandi doing it no less.

mmell busted trying to "ac post support himself"

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO mmell caught trying to ac post "support himself" http://slashdot.org/comments.p... You're a fool that projected his own modus operandi doing it no less.

mmell LIBEL classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying I use hosts to evade police while I surf little boy porn http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (1 of 2)

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (2 of 2)

THEN RECANTING THAT LIBEL HERE http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

?

ERRONEOUSLY saying I was creating a DNS replacment (which it's not, it shores up DNS redirect security issues & resolves FASTER locally in RAM vs. remote lookups) -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

Saying VI can do all my APK Hosts File Engine can do (not) & running -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... when VI can't?

* Please... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You have SERIOUS issues - get over your ''geek angst" already (you're not even much of a 'geek' based on your technical screwups above)... apk

mmell LIBEL classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying I use hosts to evade police while I surf little boy porn http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (1 of 2)

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (2 of 2)

THEN RECANTING THAT LIBEL HERE http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

?

ERRONEOUSLY saying I was creating a DNS replacment (which it's not, it shores up DNS redirect security issues & resolves FASTER locally in RAM vs. remote lookups) -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

Saying VI can do all my APK Hosts File Engine can do (not) & running -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... when VI can't?

* Please... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You have SERIOUS issues - get over your ''geek angst" already (you're not even much of a 'geek' based on your technical screwups above)... apk

mmell LIBEL classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying I use hosts to evade police while I surf little boy porn http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (1 of 2)

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (2 of 2)

THEN RECANTING THAT LIBEL HERE http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

?

ERRONEOUSLY saying I was creating a DNS replacment (which it's not, it shores up DNS redirect security issues & resolves FASTER locally in RAM vs. remote lookups) -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

Saying VI can do all my APK Hosts File Engine can do (not) & running -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... when VI can't?

* Please... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You have SERIOUS issues - get over your ''geek angst" already (you're not even much of a 'geek' based on your technical screwups above)... apk

mmell trying to ac post "support himself"

[Anonymous Coward]

ROTFLMAO mmell caught trying to ac post "support himself" http://slashdot.org/comments.p... You're a fool that projected his own modus operandi doing it no less.

Good screen size and rez

[SD-Arcadia]

The big news here is that finally we have a laptop screen with a 3:2 AR and a nice high resolution, other than the MBA, MBP, ChromePixel and Panasonic Toughbook.

Size this thing up to 14" and call it a laptop. I'll buy it instantly.

Re:Looks like a great product, No Updates / Erasur

[cboslin]

Auto updates are a huge FAIL for me. This would be enough for me to say no.

I am in the process of determining how to reinstall my Linux 10" tablet from scratch. Figure I better be able to do that before I do anything meaningful with the device. Years ago I learned that if you are going to depend on a tool, you better be able to fully control that tool.

By full control, back it up, back up data, reinstall from scratch, etc.... if you can't, its a disaster waiting to happen.

In the same category would be allowing remote wipes or erasures of my device. No thank you. If the software did that and I could not turn it off to prevent it, I would not buy the device.

The first MS OS to ignore my settings was Windows 2000, told it not to reboot or install anything without prompting me first, which worked fine until a major\ update, than my settings were ignored. I checked after the auto update, it was still set to not do it without my approval, just ignored that setting after the update. Been a loyal Linux user ever since.

Full disclosure, I still have a Windows 7 box for testing, do not plan to ever buy a Windows 8 or higher OS again. No thank you.

If you control a tool, it should obey your wishes period. If it does not, its simply not reliable and will let you down at the worst possible time. The mere fact of requiring an auto update, violates this law for many of us.

Don't try to convince me that updating my device without my permission somehow keeps me safe from exploits that require local access to my device either, as I don't plan to give the keys of my house to anyone, thus they will NEVER gain local access to the device. Ever notice how 99% of exploits require 'local' access. Well I have noticed...no thank you.

Besides if that was a concern, there is an app agnostic tool for Linux that auto encrypts everything on the hard disk, data wise, so I would go there first anyway.

The idea of waking up and my device not working, merely because someone else in their infinite wisdom decided to do something without consulting me first, leaves me cold. No thank you. Is it my device or isn't it?

Having to reboot multiple times to finish would be frustrating as all get out....what a waste of time. At offices, it always seems to happen at the most inopportune times.

You think they would learn...if they force you into an 'auto update' scenario, you are one instant away from a useless paper weight, why even go there.

mmell: How'd "eating your words" taste?

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying I use hosts to evade police while I surf little boy porn http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (1 of 2)

Libeling me saying my WARE IS A VIRUS http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (2 of 2)

THEN RECANTING THAT LIBEL HERE - "EATING YOUR WORDS" http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

?

ERRONEOUSLY saying I was creating a DNS replacment (which it's not, it shores up DNS redirect security issues & resolves FASTER locally in RAM vs. remote lookups) -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

Saying VI can do all my APK Hosts File Engine can do (not) & running -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... when VI can't?

* Please... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You have SERIOUS issues - get over your ''geek angst" already (you're not even much of a 'geek' based on your technical screwups above)... apk