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Why NASA's Budget "Victory" Is Anything But

Posted by samzenpus on from the not-so-fast dept.

StartsWithABang (3485481) writes 'Earlier this week, attempts to cut NASA's budget were defeated, and it looks like the largest space agency in the world will actually be getting nearly a 2% budget increase overall. While common news outlets are touting this as a great budget victory, the reality is that this is shaping up to be just another year of pathetic funding levels, putting our greatest dreams of exploring and understanding the Universe on hold. A sobering read for anyone who hasn't realized what we could be doing.'

37 of 267 comments (clear)

  1. Government fails again by Kohath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe we shouldn't put our greatest dreams in the hands of government.

    1. Re:Government fails again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sure, Enron, JP Morgan, Bank of America, AOL Time Warner, Blackwater, Haliburton, Malaysia Airlines, ValuJet et al would do it much better and cheaper...

    2. Re:Government fails again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And making the post office pay for the retirement of people who aren't even born yet, and then claiming that the US post office is inefficient and needs to be dismantled.

    3. Re:Government fails again by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe we shouldn't put our greatest dreams in the hands of government.

      6:30 a.m. You are awakened by your clock radio. You know it is actually 6:30 because the National Institute of Standards and Technology keeps the official time. And you can listen to your favorite radio station only because the Federal Communications Commission brings organization and coherence to our vast telecommunications system. It ensures, for example, that radio stations do not overlap and that stations signals are not interfered with by the numerous other devices â" cell phones, satellite television, wireless computers, etc. â" whose signals crowd our nationâ(TM)s airwaves.

      6:35 a.m. Like 17 million other Americans, you have asthma. But as you get out of bed you notice that you are breathing freely this morning. This is thanks in part to government clean air laws that reduce the air pollution that would otherwise greatly worsen your condition.

      6:38 a.m. You go into the kitchen for breakfast. You pour some water into your coffeemaker. You simply take for granted that this water is safe to drink. But in fact you count on your city water department to constantly monitor the quality of your water and to immediately take measures to correct any potential problems with this vital resource.

      6:39 a.m. You flip the switch on the coffee maker. There is no short in the outlet or in the electrical line and there is no resulting fire in your house. Why? Because when your house was being built, the electrical system had to be inspected to make sure it was properly installed â" a service provided by your local government. And it was installed by an electrician who was licensed by your state government to ensure his competence and your safety.

      Your greatest dreams are in the hands of the government everyday.
      And those are just the ones from the first 10 minutes after you wake up.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Government fails again by rockout · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because without government we could never accomplish these things. I'm sure if this guy eventually gets dressed and drives to work you'd bring up the roads, too, another impossibility to do without our benevolent rulers. :)

      yeah, we COULD accomplish these things. Problem is, we wouldn't. Except in that one country where there's no government and they have clean water and clean air and electricity, and yes, even roads that you can safely drive 70 mph on. Where is that again? RIght, in the figment of an AC's mind.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    5. Re:Government fails again by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Government is always good when choice is bad.

      Corporations are always good when choice is good.

      Some may try to argue that choice is always good, but it isn't. Five competing roads with 20 different owners that I have to use to get to work would not be a good thing. A single government planned road is not the best but it is better than the alternative. Many things can compare to this, usually where it requires stepping on property rights, such as running power/water/gas lines, building roads, and similar. Otherwise keep the government out of it.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    6. Re:Government fails again by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bullshit. The government has done more in my lifetime in the way of killing my dreams than any other single entity.

      You are free to move to any of the great countries around the world that have a very small central government and whose reach barely extends past the capital. Wait, you're still here? It couldn't be because of the entirely predictable problems that those countries face, wouldn't it? No, I'm sure it's just because John Galt is still slaving away in some factory, held down by the man. It's just a matter of time - Galt's Gulch is just around the corner, I'm sure of it. And then you'll show us all poor sheeple just how awesome government-less life is, and how screwed we all are without you.

      Go ahead, I'll wait. Just like I'm still waiting for the Communists to really do their thing.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    7. Re:Government fails again by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      Not anymore. The pirates have been running the ship since Nixon.

      It's far past time we turned that around.

    8. Re:Government fails again by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, you are proving his point. It's people like you that are the reason for government being weakened so much that these corporations are allowed to influence it to such a great degree.

      Back when patriotism was a thing just a few decades ago, companies didn't wield even a fraction of political power they have today.

    9. Re:Government fails again by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I present to you Somalia, the country without effective government. It lacks all those things.

      Strange correlation if this isn't causation, wouldn't you think?

    10. Re:Government fails again by Kohath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      6:30 a.m. You are awakened by your clock radio. You know it is actually 6:30 because the National Institute of Standards and Technology keeps the official time.

      Because if it were actually 6:28 AM, the world would end. And also, because the government invented time and timekeeping.

      6:35 a.m. Like 17 million other Americans, you have asthma.

      Nope. Clean air is good though. Government, like any tool, is best used only when needed, and only when it's a good fit for the task. No need to use it always, for everything.

      6:38 a.m. You go into the kitchen for breakfast. You pour some water into your coffeemaker. You simply take for granted that this water is safe to drink.

      Partly because I filter it. But mostly because I wouldn't drink it if it weren't safe. I'd make it safe, then drink it.

      And a large part of my water bill goes for pensions for people who don't do anything to keep my water clean and safe. But they get paid. Because ... government.

      6:39 a.m. You flip the switch on the coffee maker. There is no short in the outlet or in the electrical line and there is no resulting fire in your house. Why?

      Because if there were a short, I'd have fixed it.

      And because if fire hazards were common, my insurance provider would have required an inspection before selling me fire insurance.

      --

      It's interesting that I pay a water bill for water, I pay permit fees to cover the cost of electrical inspections, polluters pay pollution fees to cover pollution costs and broadcasters pay huge prices for radio spectrum. But the government still wants an additional 30-40% of every dollar I earn. Where's that money going? Not to NASA.

    11. Re:Government fails again by Kohath · · Score: 2

      The roads where I live are in a terrible state of disrepair. The money gets spent on pensions instead. Pensions don't help anyone who needs a road. Nor do they keep the peace, nor do they teach children, nor do they fight fires.

    12. Re:Government fails again by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "You get in your car and check your sticker. Your local road was built by Freetrans, your state's #1 private road construction company. Fortunately your toll sticker is good for another two weeks before you need to pay another $300 for the monthly renewal. Sure, it's a steep price, but you only have one road to your driveway - so whatever Freetrans wants, you have to pay. There used to be a bus service, but Freetrans declined their license years ago - individual car tolls are just more lucrative."

    13. Re:Government fails again by GauteL · · Score: 3, Informative

      Great. So go live in an ideal world without those people so that you can implement a society without rules, where people just play nicely with each other.

      The fact is; on every street in every town in every country there is at least one arse who will take full advantage of their freedom to fuck you over. You have a lovely sea view? The arse will build a massive garage blocking your view. Or opposite, you have a lovely old three hundred year old oak tree in your garden... when you come home one day that tree is lying across your lawn because the arse wanted a better view. Lots and lots of people care about nothing but themselves and their own. The only reason it is even remotely possible for us to live together in cities in relative peace is government and laws describing the limits to our freedom to fuck people over for our own benefit. Try going to cities where government and law enforcement has broken down.

    14. Re:Government fails again by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It takes a genuinely insane person to make such a claim.

    15. Re:Government fails again by Whiternoise · · Score: 2

      And you can listen to your favorite radio station only because the Federal Communications Commission brings organization and coherence to our vast telecommunications system.

      Time standards that were adequate to their day were around before NIST. NIST has done an awful lot of bad things, too. (Or tried to... remember the Clipper Chip?... oh, and there was that recent thing about encryption standards...)

      AM and FM radio haven't been a significant part of our actual "telecommunication system" since maybe 1960. Other than the occasional storm warning.

      I think you misunderstand the post. Radio is definitely a government thing and the most important thing the government does in this field is frequency allocation. It's vital for modern society.

      Without frequency allocation anyone could broadcast at any power at any frequency. Just think about that and how much is still controlled via radio/microwave signals. The following things rely on there being set frequency bands with no outside interference:

      Mobile phones
      Public radio and television
      Air traffic control and air-air communication: only one person can talk at a time, one idiot transmitting by mistake can jam the channel.
      Anything at 2.4GHz
      900MHz short/mid range signals e.g. Zigbee
      GPS and other satellite uplinks
      Radio time signals
      Astronomical bands of interest (e.g. 21cm)
      Military, police and emergency service bands

      There is no way this would happen without a government, you need someone to put their foot down and organise the spectrum so that everyone can operate without contention.

    16. Re:Government fails again by JackieBrown · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's because there were not as many regulations then as there are now. It got to the point where instead of the government and businesses working together, it was a war. Business won it and "big business" gets a stronger foothold against small business every time the liberal anti-corp "do-gooders" create new regulation.

    17. Re:Government fails again by LordKronos · · Score: 2

      And by the way: the EPA was instrumental in getting Primatene Mist banned last year because it used CFCs as a propellant. There is, as yet, no adequate substitute on the market. There is something called "Asthmanefrin" which is a sorry substitute, and which uses an expensive electric atomizer that is rather prone to clogging when it is needed most.

      Because Primatene Mist was the ONLY effective, portable, affordable over-the-counter medicine that could stop asthma in its tracks, the government has probably killed more asthmatics now than it has saved. It damned near killed ME. So pardon me if I don't buy your glowing recommendation here.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

      Despite its accessibility, many doctors say the medication wasn't a good option for patients.

      Although the CFC ban is what eventually drove Primatene Mist from the market, Pulmonologist have argued for years that it was at the very least, not the best medication for asthma control, and at worst, dangerous. The active ingredient in Primatene Mist is Epinephrine (also known as adrenaline, adrenalin), which can cause a dangerous increase in heart rate.

      "Primatene Mist does not treat asthma -- it treats symptoms that can come from asthma," said Dr. Kyle Hogarth, an assistant professor of medicine and the medical director of the pulmonary rehabilitation program at the University of Chicago Medical Center.

      The danger in treating only symptoms, he said, is that repeated asthma attacks can permanently damage the lungs. Poorly controlled asthma can progress to a point where, "in their 40s and 50s, [patients] have the lungs of someone who is 80 or 90 who has smoked."

      For that reason, the goal of asthma care isn't to react just to attacks -- it's to prevent attacks in the first place. That's generally done with daily medications, such as inhaled corticosteroids, which keep the airways from becoming inflamed. Ideally, Hogarth said, rescue inhalers shouldn't be used more than twice a week, at most.

    18. Re:Government fails again by VGPowerlord · · Score: 2

      In the US, the government (the National Science Foundation specifically) ran the Internet backbone through April 30, 1995. Then it got privatized... which was a mistake.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    19. Re:Government fails again by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the opposite, most of the regulation was repealed over last thirty years. Regulation against current risky investment banking? Repealed. Regulation against collusion of media and concentration of its ownership? Repealed. Regulation of monopolies? Severely weakened.

      Yours is the argument that is spoon fed to you by an aggressive and long standing PR effort that doesn't stand even basic scrutiny once you look at the actual facts of the matter in the history. Certainly there's must bad regulation in place - regulation that is now being built by that business to keep them in power now that they got in, after the regulation that prevented them from getting powerful was repealed, thanks to people like you.

      You're like the chukcha in the old russian joke, sitting on the branch happily sawing it off the tree and not understanding the warning that if you keep doing that, you'll fall and hurt yourself. And when you do fall, instead of understanding your actions led to it, you instead transplant blame on the person warning you about it.

    20. Re:Government fails again by hey! · · Score: 2

      You don't get to count the Clipper Chip as something bad the government did. It didn't happen because people didn't want it to happen, which is how government *is supposed to work*.

      Oh, and as someone who lived in the 1960s, I can attest that AM and FM radio didn't stop being a vital part of our communication system in 1960. It was irreplaceable up until around 1995 or so, and still vital up until a few years ago. And what has replaced AM and FM radio? The Internet.

      I started using the Internet back when it was the ARPANet. I'm probably one of the few people alive who remember what a "TIP" was. Now who paid for ARPANet? Here's a hint:the final "A" in ARPA stands for "Agency". For a long time the backbone of the Internet was NSFNet, run by the National Science Foundation, which, despite its name, is NOT a private foundation. Now here's the part that's going to be astonishing for someone whose concept of what the House of Representatives can accomplish is shaped by the last four or five Congresses. Back in 1992 a committee of the House of Representatives held hearings which resulted in legislation opening up this nationally managed network to commercial traffic. This created the Internet as we know it today.

      Think about that. The *House* held a hearing that identified an opportunity to do something useful, and actually produced legislation accomplishing that thing and transformed the world, for better or worse, but mostly for the better. So what happened in the intervening 20 years? Well, people elected Congressmen whose ideology claimed that government can't do anything productive, and (surprise) the House stopped accomplishing anything useful.

      Oh, and the poster's argument still stands. That smartphone you've replaced your FM radio with is using regulated airways.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  2. down spiral by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2

    another year of welfare-warfare waste, the USG pissing away our future whether Obamunist or Bush leaguers.

  3. Two Percent? by Ignacio · · Score: 2, Insightful

    2% isn't a victory, it's an "oh my f*cking god, we survived being killed off by the skin of our teeth".

  4. Pittance by mfh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A scrap of funding for such a vital tool for human survival. Is it that our technology could never allow us to escape the confines of Earth, or is it that the government would rather lock horns with rivals on a pebble in a sea of pebbles? KUNG KUNG KUNG...

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Pittance by hawkinspeter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This planet might not seem confining to you, but it's most definitely a case of all of our eggs in one basket. There have been extinction level events in the past and there will be in the future. On a long enough time-scale, humans will certainly be in a lot of trouble if we only exist on this one planet.

      You're argument seems to be "it's okay to have all your eggs in one basket as it's a really big basket. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to the size of the earth, listen...".

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
  5. We can't afford it! by s.petry · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously think about it. How can we pay for the NSA to spy on everyone, our Military to bomb anyone, our CIA to fund terrorist groups in the Middle East (and everywhere else for that matter), pay for Welfare instead of actually doing something to fix the economy, continue to let the top .01% live tax free lives of luxury (and allow them to offshore most of their money), provide strike force military equipment to local police and sheriff departments so that they can enforce "Free Speech Zones", pay for expansions in DHS and TSA so that they can frisk little children and search colostomy bags for explosives, have the Federal Reserve give hundreds of billions of dollars to whatever country they feel like propping up today, and give your tax money to countries like the Ukraine so that they can revolt and join NATO if we are spending money on bettering mankind?

    I really and truly wish that something in my list was a joke, but sadly it's actually a very short list of how the US is being mismanaged by corrupted people holding offices.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  6. NASA vs SpaceX by Twinbee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe they're saving their funds to give to SpaceX instead who seem to doing things more efficiently than NASA in terms of getting us off this rock.

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    1. Re:NASA vs SpaceX by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sigh. It's not NASA vs SpaceX. It's NASA and SpaceX/Bigelow/etc, versus NASA and LM/ATK/etc.

      It's a crew capsule built for NASA for around a billion dollars total, versus a crew capsule built for NASA for around a billion dollars per year.

      It's a launcher that will cost NASA less than $100m per launch for 50 tonnes to LEO, versus a launcher that costs NASA $2 billion per year every year for one launch of 70 tonnes to LEO once every year or two.

      It's commercial space stations that cost $100-150m/yr each for NASA to lease, versus a space station that costs NASA $3 billion/yr to operate and is dependent on Russian modules and Russian crew capsules (costing an extra $75m per seat.)

      It's about the most cost effective way for US taxpayers to achieve the things they apparently want to do, versus repeating the same costly mistakes over and over.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
  7. Re:our greatest hopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always cringe at comments like this.
    Space exploration can be an end to itself, but it has also proven to be a massive driver for improvements in life in general.
    The spinoffs alone are huge, let alone the jobs created, the money moving around the economy.

    https://www.sac.edu/AcademicProgs/ScienceMathHealth/Planetarium/Pages/Benefits-of-the-NASA-Space-Program.aspx

    $18 Billion is what, $70 a year per person in the US? (rough guess there).

    If you want money to help you live a better life, have a look at the defense budget. For the Joint Strike Fighter in the development phase, $14 billion was spent on 35-40 prototypes over 3 years.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Procurement_costs

    How much does a nuclear missile cost? The NSA?

     

  8. Re:our greatest hopes by SEE · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's no "safe place to sleep" on a planet unprotected from large asteroids, any more than there's a safe place to sleep in the caldera of an active volcano. There's merely hoping the statistically inevitable won't happen in your lifetime. Space can't wait.

  9. Neil DeGrasse Tyson says a 1% increase for mars? by Cito · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tyson has lectured, screamed, went before congress and actively lobby's that if we increased NASA's budget by a penny on the dollar just 1% would get man to mars.

    And he's against private manned space missions, course he says low earth orbit/satellites/iss could be private but only a government can take on the budget and risk of manned exploration of space

    Neil deGrasse Tyson On NASA & Federal Budget (MUâ¦: http://youtu.be/jcdDb-cbadw

    Neil deGrasse Tyson at UB: What NASA Means to Ameâ¦: http://youtu.be/RQhNZENMG1o

    Neil deGrasse Tyson on Apollo missions and NASA funding: http://youtu.be/LWqNYiCAbsY

    Neil DeGrasse Tyson: "Elon Musk's SpaceX Won't Get Us To Mars: http://youtu.be/gW74vsCNQtc

  10. For perspective by korbulon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Qatar is investing enough money to host the football world cup - a tournament that lasts one month - to fund NASA for ten years.

    http://keepingscore.blogs.time...>/

    What a world.

  11. Inflation is Simple by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You don't need to know anything complicated about the situation to realize this is bad. ALL you need to know, is that INFLATION in the US stays around 3% year over year.

    So, a 2% budget increase, is really a 1% cut.

    Keep this in mind at work, when you're getting your annual performance reviews. If you aren't getting at least 3% each and every year, you're getting your pay CUT.

    Companies with a policy that pay increases can't be more than 3% (or less), absolutely infuriate me. Those smart enough to intelligently object, usually get the problem worked-around. However, it's still a company policy that says, in no uncertain terms, that every employee who has performed superbly, must get penalized, year over year, as a punishment for remaining employed by that company. They're encouraging you to jump ship and get a higher salary elsewhere. Then, you could possibly come back, getting signed-on at a much higher starting salary than they were willing to give you while you stayed with the company.

    Institutional knowledge is valuable, and companies go out of their way to destroy it. </rant>

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  12. Closer Look by strack · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dont count your cookies just yet. Senator Shelby has inserted a poison pill amendment into the spending bill to put onerous accounting requirements on spacex missions for NASA, in order to make them less competitive with the SLS, a lot of which is being developed in Alabama, Senator Shelbys state.

  13. Re:our greatest hopes by oneandoneis2 · · Score: 2

    Right, because satellite communications, GPS, Teflon, water purification systems... none of these have improved our lives at all.

    --
    So.. it has come to this
  14. Don't waste money on manned pork missions by Squidlips · · Score: 2

    Most of NASA's budget is wasted on pork such as the ISS, the Rocket to Nowhere (SLS) and the Orion capsule; all manned porky missions. The money would be so much more useful for the following types of missions: Terrestrial Planet Finder Europa Clipper Mars Sample Return Unfortunately NASA's top management is all ex-pilots and astronauts and that is all they are interested in,

  15. Yes, but by Ecuador · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yes, but, apart from timekeeping, radio, clean air, water, electricity, education and roads and public order, what has the Government ever done for us?

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS