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German Intel Agency Helped NSA Tap Fiber Optic Cables In Germany
An anonymous reader writes Der Spiegel has written a piece on the extent of collaboration between Germany's intelligence agency, Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), and the U.S.'s National Security Agency (NSA). The sources cited in the piece do reveal BND's enthusiastic collusion in enabling the NSA to tap fiber optic cables in Germany, but they seem inconclusive as to how much information from the NSA's collection activity in the country is actually shared between the NSA and BND. Of note is evidence that the NSA's collection methods do not automatically exclude German companies and organizations from their data sweep; intelligence personnel have to rectro-actively do so on an individual basis when they realize that they are surveilling German targets. Germany's constitution protects against un-warranted surveillance of correspondence, either by post or telecommunications, of German citizens in Germany or abroad and foreigners on German soil.
"Have you seen any suspicious Germans around here?"
Nein!
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
BND are small time wannabes. No question about that.
Wow, this is an impressive loophole that the NSA and BND have found. The BND can't spy on Germans, and the NSA can't spy on Americans, but they CAN spy on each other, and then share whatever they find.
The sharing doesn't even have to be official, the BND and NSA could just claim that the information was "leaked" to them by some anonymous 3rd party, allowing them to gain all the intelligence they wanted on their own citizens without actually spying on them directly.
Sadly, this kind of stuff has been modus operandi for Germany for two decades now. You see, there's a whole generation that was raised on the concept of "our american friends". And that generation is in power now.
You see it in Merkel, who is basically a lapdog to America.
You see it in our financial industry, which was basically sold bridges by "our american friends" - guess who sent 400 million to Lehman Brothers literally (not metaphorically, literally) the day before they collapsed? Correct, a german bank.
And you see it in your secret services, which are basically a laughing stock the world over, but try to pretend they can play with the big boys. When in fact they can't even convince our own government members to actually use the cryptophones that they developed for them. *facepalm*
We are doing some really cool stuff over here, but our people in charge are idiots.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
It seems inconceivable that a country where half the citizens cowered under the Stasi, would ever consider rolling over and asking the NSA for a tummy rub.
Worldwide cooperation with NSA seems rather extensive, does it not?
I don't like the sound of that at all...
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Try to say that repeatedly:
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Now, have a few beers, and try it again.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
These people are doing the same things that were the very basis of oppression of any and all freedoms on German soil in these two regimes. It is like these cretins _want_ that state of affairs back.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Joint NSA + BND operations have been known about since the Cold War, and the white "Radomes" in Bad Aibling and elsewhere in Germany have been well-known surveillance sites since at least the 1980ies. Also, the ECHELON program has been known about since at least those days. Numerous newspaper articles appeared back then, and The Spiegel seems to have forgotten about its own articles from that time. With ECHELON, it was possible to monitor the entire radio and phone communication of Europe and especially, Eastern Europe. The West relied on these facilities for intelligence about the Eastern Bloc (COMINTERN states). Everybody knew about it. During the Cold War, it was pretty obvious where everybody's surveillance sites were. When the German Telecommunication Law was reformed in the 1990ies to include tap provisions for intelligence agencies (every German Internet provider must provide a tap interface for intelligence agencies), it was clear back then that they would introduce automated surveillance facilities. There was even activism and protest trying to prevent that law reform, to no avail. Also, the US export restrictions for encryption during those days made it clear just how good the decryption facilities of the NSA were. When that limitation was lifted, everybody knew the NSA can now decrypt all standard encryption algorithms. Plus, occasionally, the press released information about new kinds of software the NSA was working on. So, all of these were indicators that there is an automated surveillance facility used by the NSA and probably other intelligence agencies (like the BND). Intelligence agencies are all about spying, and they do it all day, every day. No surprises here...
The German constitution does not protect against un-warranted surveillance of correspondence. It explicitly states that exceptions can be made by law, and there are indeed sweeping exceptions. Oversight is almost non-existent. Every German government has entered into or upheld secret treaties with America to allow US spying. "Transatlantikbrücke" is the euphemism under which influential positions are filled with US-friendly people.
My German friends always told me how they hate the Stasi, they always told me of the horror story of friends selling out friends back in the Eastern Germany
Looks like my German friends are all blowing smokes after all ...
The truth is them Germans simply can't get enough of the Stasi so much so that they let their own spies to help NSA to spy on themselves !!!
the so called conspiracy theorists were right again - what's that 20 times this year?
idiots
This is exactly why you should buy AMD.
It wouldn't be far-fetched to say that Germany doesn't have its own spy organization, but is instead "serviced" by a branch office of the US spy organizations. Germany has only relatively recently become formally independent of the foreign "oversight" which had been a kind of meta-government since WW2. The BND in particular was founded with the support and guidance of the US and operates almost entirely outside the democratic framework. The German people have only miniscule control over the BND, by means of a small, indirectly elected and nearly completely impotent oversight committee which cannot even publicly disclose anything. The BND could not be less under the control of the German people if it were a hostile foreign organization, hence the distinction is moot.
Rectro-actively ? Does that involve a rectroscope or some kind of rectal probe ? :S
There is no doubt that these activities of the BND constitute treason and it they violated some other laws in the process. When will those responsible be tried before the Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe?
It is funny and sad that the Germans are helping their 'allies' commit industrial espionage on their own companies on a massive scale. They are probably even paying for it.
The traumas are still unhealed and they are passed on to the next generations, so the world has become a giant festival of self whipping. To avoid talking about the issues huge defenses are erected along with complex system of hierarchy. The totality is nonetheless based on a fragile illusion of power, which can be penetrated by anyone regardless of the applied conditioning - like what Snowden did for example. As long as people believe the illusion it stays together, but it's also possible to voluntarily change one's path and actions. The sum is less than the value of the parts.
Because ultimately it's impossible to have a complete control of a human being the mechanism needs to be paranoid to the infinity, and everybody is treated as a suspect. The problem is not however the humanity but the mechanism, which is in denial. For sure the ones in the core understand this, but the reward system in the brain can be really tricky...
what?
The terms were dictated by the US. They are part of the agreements that regulate(d) the occupation of Germany (see Truppenstationierungsabkommen).
What about the Constitution Protection (Verfassungsschutz), the Military Shielding Service (Militärischer Abschirmdienst, MAD), the Espionage Deflection Service (Spionageabwehrdienst), the Federal Data Protection Agent (Bundesdatenschutzbeauftragter) and Land Data Protection Agents (Landesdatenschutzbeauftragte)?
She was so mad about her phone being wiretapped. And yet, she was playing along with the American surveillance machine the whole time. Serves her right.
The missing manual.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
I thought the chancellor was mad about NSA spying in Germany?
Do NSA, BND & Co. give companies like Google access to their surveillance databases to improve targeted advertising? Try making a phone call to someone and chat about some topics you don't normally talk about. Then visit a site with Google ads, and look at the ads. Anything suspicious? Now try that again and write e-mail to someone using a not-so-obvious e-mail account (that isn't already in possession of one of the big players). What ads to do you get now? Recently, I wrote to someone I'm going to buy a French car, and bam I'm getting ads for French champagne. Coincidence? Never noticed any ads for French products before.
What about them?
Its so poofi
They always return to their true nature.
It is left to the reader to define who 'they' are.
That big money runs governments all over the planet (not elected political representatives & officials): Once you get THAT through your head, you see the REAL picture, and what's really going on.
These people are doing the same things that were the very basis of oppression of any and all freedoms on German soil in these two regimes. It is like these cretins _want_ that state of affairs back.
They want that level of power, but since it's *them* this time, they'll only use it for "good" (ie. what *they* want).
Of course, they neglect to realise that's exactly what the Nazi's thought.
The others act outraged when foreign governments or Facebook spy on them but are a-ok with our own government doing it.
Why would you think that? Just because a majority of people voted for a certain political party, it certainly doesn't mean they necessarily support all of that party's policies. If you only get one vote every few years at a general election, then it is almost certain that you will have bigger concerns than "mere" spying activity that is potentially going to be harmful to you if abused or if someone makes a mistake. For example, you might be concerned about your child's education, or having a roof over your family's head tonight, or being able to afford to buy food without working three jobs at once.
The curse of modern party politics is that it reduces a very complicated issue (national government) to a single decision between a small number of often similar choices. Elections are dominated by a very small number of very high profile issues, even though the people elected will be responsible for a very large number of issues that can still affect many people during their term in office.
This is why I am increasingly in favour of a power of recall (where any individual elected office holder who isn't doing a satisfactory job can be kicked out by the same electorate) and of an overriding power of referendum (where a sensibly large proportion of the population can force a national vote on any single issue they want, and the result is then binding on the government).
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
erschossen auf der Flucht
ah, the gold old days...it's nice to have them back.
not
Germany's constitution protects against un-warranted surveillance of correspondence, either by post or telecommunications, of German citizens in Germany or abroad and foreigners on German soil.
Gee Whiz! I wish we had a constitution like that here in the United States!
Bring 800ccs of faux outrage, stat!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
How independent are they?
Indeed. "Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" (roughly: "German nature will cure the ills of the world"). The Nazis though that the wold was corrupt and weak, and that they were doing something to fix that because they believed they had found out how to be better human beings. Kind of like the US portrays itself these days. Of course, the Nazis also though that some could not be "cured" and should therefore be just exterminated. But this feeling of ultimate superiority is a slippery slope and Gitmo, murder-by-drone, global surveillance, etc. may just ultimately end in something just as catastrophic.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Didn't Lewis Carroll mention them in Jabberwocky? I seem to recall in the second stanza:
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bundesnachrichtendienst!"
If your only tool is a hammer, you'll approach every problem as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow