Slashdot Mirror
German Intel Agency Helped NSA Tap Fiber Optic Cables In Germany
An anonymous reader writes Der Spiegel has written a piece on the extent of collaboration between Germany's intelligence agency, Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), and the U.S.'s National Security Agency (NSA). The sources cited in the piece do reveal BND's enthusiastic collusion in enabling the NSA to tap fiber optic cables in Germany, but they seem inconclusive as to how much information from the NSA's collection activity in the country is actually shared between the NSA and BND. Of note is evidence that the NSA's collection methods do not automatically exclude German companies and organizations from their data sweep; intelligence personnel have to rectro-actively do so on an individual basis when they realize that they are surveilling German targets. Germany's constitution protects against un-warranted surveillance of correspondence, either by post or telecommunications, of German citizens in Germany or abroad and foreigners on German soil.
Wow, this is an impressive loophole that the NSA and BND have found. The BND can't spy on Germans, and the NSA can't spy on Americans, but they CAN spy on each other, and then share whatever they find.
The sharing doesn't even have to be official, the BND and NSA could just claim that the information was "leaked" to them by some anonymous 3rd party, allowing them to gain all the intelligence they wanted on their own citizens without actually spying on them directly.
Sadly, this kind of stuff has been modus operandi for Germany for two decades now. You see, there's a whole generation that was raised on the concept of "our american friends". And that generation is in power now.
You see it in Merkel, who is basically a lapdog to America.
You see it in our financial industry, which was basically sold bridges by "our american friends" - guess who sent 400 million to Lehman Brothers literally (not metaphorically, literally) the day before they collapsed? Correct, a german bank.
And you see it in your secret services, which are basically a laughing stock the world over, but try to pretend they can play with the big boys. When in fact they can't even convince our own government members to actually use the cryptophones that they developed for them. *facepalm*
We are doing some really cool stuff over here, but our people in charge are idiots.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
It seems inconceivable that a country where half the citizens cowered under the Stasi, would ever consider rolling over and asking the NSA for a tummy rub.
Worldwide cooperation with NSA seems rather extensive, does it not?
I don't like the sound of that at all...
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Try to say that repeatedly:
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Bundesnachrichtendienst
Now, have a few beers, and try it again.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
These people are doing the same things that were the very basis of oppression of any and all freedoms on German soil in these two regimes. It is like these cretins _want_ that state of affairs back.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
If Hitler was still alive, the NSA would probably try to get advice from the GeStaPo on how to spy on people and deal with anybody that has an undesirable attitude. The 3rd Reich was the very first real surveillance state, even if mostly non-technical.
The US already has copied the idea of secret laws and secret courts that the 3rd Reich pioneered. Cannot have oversight by the very people these courts and laws are targeted against, now can we? Also makes it far simpler to remove people from society that have actually done nothing wrong.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Indeed. Simply because
"Die Deutschen Buerger sind alle verdaechtig! Wir mussen sie alle bespitzeln!"
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Joint NSA + BND operations have been known about since the Cold War, and the white "Radomes" in Bad Aibling and elsewhere in Germany have been well-known surveillance sites since at least the 1980ies. Also, the ECHELON program has been known about since at least those days. Numerous newspaper articles appeared back then, and The Spiegel seems to have forgotten about its own articles from that time. With ECHELON, it was possible to monitor the entire radio and phone communication of Europe and especially, Eastern Europe. The West relied on these facilities for intelligence about the Eastern Bloc (COMINTERN states). Everybody knew about it. During the Cold War, it was pretty obvious where everybody's surveillance sites were. When the German Telecommunication Law was reformed in the 1990ies to include tap provisions for intelligence agencies (every German Internet provider must provide a tap interface for intelligence agencies), it was clear back then that they would introduce automated surveillance facilities. There was even activism and protest trying to prevent that law reform, to no avail. Also, the US export restrictions for encryption during those days made it clear just how good the decryption facilities of the NSA were. When that limitation was lifted, everybody knew the NSA can now decrypt all standard encryption algorithms. Plus, occasionally, the press released information about new kinds of software the NSA was working on. So, all of these were indicators that there is an automated surveillance facility used by the NSA and probably other intelligence agencies (like the BND). Intelligence agencies are all about spying, and they do it all day, every day. No surprises here...
germans love to be abused obviously.
The traumas are still unhealed and they are passed on to the next generations, so the world has become a giant festival of self whipping. To avoid talking about the issues huge defenses are erected along with complex system of hierarchy. The totality is nonetheless based on a fragile illusion of power, which can be penetrated by anyone regardless of the applied conditioning - like what Snowden did for example. As long as people believe the illusion it stays together, but it's also possible to voluntarily change one's path and actions. The sum is less than the value of the parts.
Because ultimately it's impossible to have a complete control of a human being the mechanism needs to be paranoid to the infinity, and everybody is treated as a suspect. The problem is not however the humanity but the mechanism, which is in denial. For sure the ones in the core understand this, but the reward system in the brain can be really tricky...
The terms were dictated by the US. They are part of the agreements that regulate(d) the occupation of Germany (see Truppenstationierungsabkommen).
She was so mad about her phone being wiretapped. And yet, she was playing along with the American surveillance machine the whole time. Serves her right.
The missing manual.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
I thought the chancellor was mad about NSA spying in Germany?
Stop lying. Or at least have the decency to lie only to yourself and do that in private.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
They always return to their true nature.
It is left to the reader to define who 'they' are.
These people are doing the same things that were the very basis of oppression of any and all freedoms on German soil in these two regimes. It is like these cretins _want_ that state of affairs back.
They want that level of power, but since it's *them* this time, they'll only use it for "good" (ie. what *they* want).
Of course, they neglect to realise that's exactly what the Nazi's thought.
Oversight which they manage to pretty much completely evade if said parties aren't already conspirators.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
We love to paint ourselves as modern and tech-savvy, but only ~10% voted for parties opposed to government spying in the last election. The others act outraged when foreign governments or Facebook spy on them but are a-ok with our own government doing it.
I can only hope this latest revelation shakes them up a bit.
The others act outraged when foreign governments or Facebook spy on them but are a-ok with our own government doing it.
Why would you think that? Just because a majority of people voted for a certain political party, it certainly doesn't mean they necessarily support all of that party's policies. If you only get one vote every few years at a general election, then it is almost certain that you will have bigger concerns than "mere" spying activity that is potentially going to be harmful to you if abused or if someone makes a mistake. For example, you might be concerned about your child's education, or having a roof over your family's head tonight, or being able to afford to buy food without working three jobs at once.
The curse of modern party politics is that it reduces a very complicated issue (national government) to a single decision between a small number of often similar choices. Elections are dominated by a very small number of very high profile issues, even though the people elected will be responsible for a very large number of issues that can still affect many people during their term in office.
This is why I am increasingly in favour of a power of recall (where any individual elected office holder who isn't doing a satisfactory job can be kicked out by the same electorate) and of an overriding power of referendum (where a sensibly large proportion of the population can force a national vote on any single issue they want, and the result is then binding on the government).
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The real world is not that simple.
There are some psychopaths, especially in politics, who are not driven by money but by power and control. They've intentionally moved into politics because of that. Merkel is actually a good example of that, she spends considerable amounts of her efforts on getting rid of every potential rival around her, and she's quite good at it. She's the most popular politician in Germany largely because she's made sure all the others woke up to a knife in the back one day.
These kinds of people are not looking for big money, and are not easily bought, because they're looking for a different drug.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Bring 800ccs of faux outrage, stat!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Indeed. "Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" (roughly: "German nature will cure the ills of the world"). The Nazis though that the wold was corrupt and weak, and that they were doing something to fix that because they believed they had found out how to be better human beings. Kind of like the US portrays itself these days. Of course, the Nazis also though that some could not be "cured" and should therefore be just exterminated. But this feeling of ultimate superiority is a slippery slope and Gitmo, murder-by-drone, global surveillance, etc. may just ultimately end in something just as catastrophic.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Nine? Where?
Thats what so many Germans just dont seem to get.
This is all banking data, legal data, gov databases, cryptography, trade negotiations, science funding, export opportunities, advanced aerospace, computer support is just gifted to the USA for free.
Everything Germany is considering internally on its own networks is been given to the US military industrial complex with the help of German telcos and a select few German gov staff.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Think of it more as US staff moving between gov jobs and the US private sector. :)
Think of it more as German crypto staff enjoying US mil methods, hardware, software and shared sites.
Generations have long friendships and private jobs waiting.
From big brands to startups, front companies to open source
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Didn't Lewis Carroll mention them in Jabberwocky? I seem to recall in the second stanza:
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bundesnachrichtendienst!"
If your only tool is a hammer, you'll approach every problem as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow