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US Government Fights To Not Explain No-Fly List Selection Process
An anonymous reader writes: On August 6, U.S. District Judge Anthony Trenga ordered the federal government to "explain why the government places U.S. citizens who haven't been convicted of any violent crimes on its no-fly database." Unsurprisingly, the federal government objected to the order, once more claiming that to divulge their no-fly list criteria would expose state secrets and thus pose a national security threat. When the judge said he would read the material privately, the government insisted that reading the material "would not assist the Court in deciding the pending Motion to Dismiss (PDF) because it is not an appropriate means to test the scope of the assertion of the State Secrets privilege." The federal government has until September 7 to comply with the judge's order unless the judge is swayed by the government's objection.
If somehow we could avoid letting the worst ideas just kinda slide.
There's not a lick of evidence that no-fly has helped anyone, but we need to insist its policies not face even the slightest judicial review. Asshole libertarians tend identify me as an authoritarian because I state the obvious vis a vis their fundamental beliefs, but this kind of deprivation without due process is still completely nuts.
End the no-fly list.
For the safety of the country there are certain things that need to remain secret. Some complain our government doesn't do enough to protect us. Others see the boogeyman behind everything the government does. Criteria for no-fly list? I imagine there is an element of secrecy there and it would largely depend on intelligence generated through a number of sources. Are there mistakes made? Of course. Unfortunately the process is administered by human beings who are flawed vessels at best.
The federal government has until September 7 to comply with the judge's order
Or else!
It's time to start disassembling this expensive fraud. Millions of travelers are inconvenienced by these fraudulent necessities that have been installed since the Patriot Act was passed. That Act will go down in American history as the single, most damaging, threat to liberty in this country. Billions spent, law abiding people treated like criminals without due process. It truly makes me ashamed and angry at DC and the retards that reside there.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
A certain judge will be placed on the no-fly list on Sept 6.
To divulge this information would let loose the fact that the list is populated arbitrarily in most cases, and in others using illegal domestic spying practices currently being swept under the rug by the administration and the NSA. More importantly it would further confirm the TSA and most of homeland security as nothing more than security theatre and lemon socialism for defense contractors. Further, it would serve also to undermine more than a decade of highly controversial foreign and domestic policy in the wake of the september 11th attacks.
Another way to approach this retiscence from the government is in terms of employment and consumer confidence, as thats really all a capitalist government is focused on when it legislates. for those who insist it would help to dismantle the department of homeland security, its not that simple or even prudent to do. closing a 60 billion dollar a year facility would instantly land a quarter of a million americans unemployed as well as trigger staff cuts in military agencies and various contractors across the board. the long story short: as capitalism employs outsourcing and offshoring in its advancing race to the bottom, it becomes increasingly incapable of providing gainful employment for anyone and in turn government programs like this must be protected, even if they do very little else but harass the public and chase their tail. the big state secret is that the United States can hardly keep the government open, lags the world in education, and leads the world in incarceration
Good people go to bed earlier.
"... that reading the material "would not assist the Court in deciding the pending Motion to Dismiss (PDF) because it is not an appropriate means to test the scope of the assertion of the State Secrets privilege.""
Actually, that is precisely what letting the judge read the criteria would do.
I suspect that the real problem is that the criteria used for being added to the No-Fly list are overbroad and arbitrary. The secret here is that the No-Fly list is a farce.
An internal system operation returned the error "The operation completed successfully.".
is one of the many reasons why I think there really is no discernible difference between Republicans and Democrats. Two sides of the same d2. I kinda fooled myself into thinking the Dems would be different after 8 years of W. But we just see more of the same. Same abuse of powers, same sense of entitlement and executive privilege, same (or expanded) levels of invasive surveillance, same police-state mentality.
The federal government has become an insatiable monstrosity of bureaucratic machinery that would have defied even the imagination of Kafka, demanding accountability and transparency from all (achieving such ends at gunpoint or through a wiretap), while offering none itself.
The great insight of the founding fathers was recognizing a need for checks and balances, and creating a theoretical system to prevent excesses of the executive (or the other branches). The problem with this nice idea is that in the real world powerful people tend to curry favor among themselves, where Supreme Court justices go on duck hunting trips with the Vice President and suchlike: the branches of government are just three sides of the same d3.
Look, no matter how totalitarian we actually are, we will always pretend this is true. "America is the specialist most freest place in the universe" is an idea beaten into children's heads without qualification throughout early and middle childhood. It's my pet theory that this is the mechanism by which we get so many libertarians.
When this topic came up a few weeks ago here on Slashdot, I did a bit of research and found out that the "no fly list" would be better named the "no entry list", as the people are not allowed to enter or leave the country on a plane - they can fly within the country if they wish. It is a list of a few hundred citizens and a few thousand foreign nationals not allowed to fly into or out of the country. The Terrorist Watch List, on the other hand, has MILLIONS of people listed, mostly US citizens.
I'm far more concerned about the government watching millions of it's own people, treating them potential terrorists, than I am about them listing a few thousand foreign actors who aren't allowed to enter the US.
She sued, and called her mother as a witness. Her mother was then put on the list and not allowed back in. The US denied doing this, but the airline said that was why she was not allowed to board.
Eventually they discovered that the original reason the daughter was put on the no fly list was that someone interviewing her had checked the wrong box on a form.
She won her law suit, and the US had to remove her from the list. This was after years of having her education interrupted.
Basically, the no fly list is a poorly managed piece of crap that they are ashamed to admit they usually have no idea why anyone is on the list.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
1. Does the subject wear a turban? If yes, add to list. If no, continue.
2. Can you pronounce the subject's name? If no, add to list, if yes, continue.
3. Has subject slept with your significant other or ex? If yes, add to list, if no, continue.
4. Flip a coin. If heads, add to list, if tails, continue.
5. Do you want the subject on the list? If yes, add to list, if no, arrest subject for loitering and go to lunch.
Look, no matter how totalitarian we actually are, we will always pretend this is true. "America is the specialist most freest place in the universe" is an idea beaten into children's heads without qualification throughout early and middle childhood. It's my pet theory that this is the mechanism by which we get so many libertarians.
That just makes it all the more disillusioning when you figure out that it's bullshit.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
That Act will go down in American history as the single, most damaging, assault on liberty in this country.
It's my pet theory that this is the mechanism by which we get so many libertarians.
Strange, you just keep tossing out random completely off-topic straw-man attacks against Libertarians... And in a context where they would agree with you completely.
Libertarians hate big-government, and in general consider the patriot act nothing short of an abomination. Bringing up your personal demons at every opportunity really doesn't look any better than the morons who blame Obama for everything.
working tirelessly to empower itself, subjugate your rights, and make the Deep State that much deeper. All in the name of "national security" of course.
I would bet serious money that the No Fly List results from inputs from a variety of different agencies applying different and inconsistent rules, or in some cases maybe no rules at all.
and thus pose a national security threat
...and thus expose a national security threat
FTFTFF (Fixed That for the Fucking Fascists)
Let's set aside the kinda inane charge of a strawman, since I haven't outlined any sort of libertarian position, and jump straight to the mess of "why bring them up at all?"
The answer is that their agreement, while politically convenient to the policy position I'd want, is based off of fundamentally different reasons I'd find specious, and I'd prefer to clarify the source of my opinion.
In a sub-basement of the Nebraska Avenue Complex, the headquarters of the Department of Homeland Security, sit a couple of men staring at a computer screen and talking to each other in heavily accented English. The screen fades to white for a fraction of a second as it refreshes, the image changing from a young white woman to a man of Middle Eastern descent - a dentist in Seattle, but these men would never think to look that up. One of the men, brown-haired with an average build, his arms and legs containing a bit of muscle from his time at what he proudly refers to as "Fort Buttfuck, Texas" but his slight gut telling the real story of years spent "analyzing" various persons of interest and inhaling massive lunches purchased on the government's dime turns to his friend, a slightly shorter man from a small town in Oklahoma who is missing one of his front teeth. Unlike his friend, he's purely lean, having spent a good chunk of his taxpayer-funded salary on an expensive gym in Maryland - one that's popular with some of the senators when they come down to Washington to do business.
"Hey Earl," the first man says, "You reckon this guy's a terrorist?" he asks, pronouncing "terrorist" as "turrorist".
"I dunno, Clete, I reckon he might be," the second man replies. "Think we should ask the NSA for some intel?"
Clete thinks for a moment. "Reckon we 'oughta. I'll make the call."
Clete reaches to his left, past a hill of Taco Bell wrappers, and picks up a single throwing dart from a beer can he'd cut in half one day when business had been slower. Just to the the right of the screen (but far enough away that the screen won't be hit, because Earl caught hell from their supervisor after he put a dart through the last screen) with a clear line of sight to Clete's chair, a dartboard hangs from a nail in the wall. A printed-out sign (Comic Sans, of course) above it reads "NSA". An identical dartboard, with an identical sign, hangs on the left of the screen for Earl's use.
With a deep inhale, Clete tenses his arm, letting it go as he exhales. The dart sails across the room and embeds itself in the wall half an inch from the rim of the dartboard. Clete could've sworn he had better aim than this - after five years of experience, he was pretty good at darts - but one look at Mt. Bud (Earl's pet name for the pile of empty beer cans they tossed into a corner for the janitors to clean up. Clete had always reckoned that they were illegals, but they picked up the beer cans well enough.) told him he'd probably had one or two too many. "Fuckin' shit!" Clete cried in anger. Earl was beating him by 10 points now, which meant Clete would be paying for the drinks after work. "Yeah Earl, reckon he's a turrorist."
Earl dutifully pulls out a small remote control, one that has only two buttons - the red button and the green button. Green means go, red means No-Fly list. He presses the red button, and a large red circle with a cross through it, the standard "NO" sign, appears over the face on the screen. There's a whirring from the back of the room as the computer prints out the paperwork to add the dentist from Seattle, who had never had any terrorist affiliations in his life, to the No-Fly list, complete with an automated version of Clete's hastily-scrawled signature at the bottom, with Earl's underneath as a witness. The image on screen changes to another photo, this one of a teenager. Earl takes a long pull from his beer. He's got this one.
It's long past time that federal judges start jailing these bureaucrats for contempt for not answering simple questions about the no-fly list.
Oh, sorry, that first sentence was written from the perspective of the TSA, in order to satirize. I could see how you might confuse that as my own opinion. Tonal slip-up. Sorry.
Judge asks for reason why this is a good idea.
Mr. Holder says he'd rather not.
Judge says, if you are sure you want to go that way then I guess you loose.
It is sad when the Attorney General of the US can't even privately defend his position.
It would be really bad for the Constitution if his position won the day.
Hopefully the judge won't let that happen.
But it's DECIDEDLY not just for blacks. Leaving out of SFO two different times in the past 5 years it was primarily whites, asians, and hispanics (there might've been a black guy in the mix, but certainly not representative of an all black work program). On the *OTHER* hand, going through Atlanta, it was like 90 percent black TSA, and probably 50-75 for all the other jobs in the area (Although contrary to the negative opinion most people hold regarding 'those poor dirty blacks', *EVERY* one in Atlanta was professional, courteous, and helpful. Be they panhandlers, Guitar Center employees, Walmart employees, TSA employees/officials, etc. Compared to the caliber of people white, black, hispanic, native, or asian in California, they were a shining beacon of what America *SHOULD* act like, rather than the ever devolving social shithole we've become.
That's just my observations having travelled the spectrum of both TSA and 'regular' employees. Also the SFO TSA agents were lively and not RUDE, but they lacked the class and professionalism that the Atlanta ones seemed to have.
This article shows the "no fly" list being used to divert an international flight by abuse of airspace into Canada for fuel limits, arrest an onboard passenger in Canada for no visa, and then divert him into the US for arrest. Frightening no fly list.
papersplease.org/wp/2010/06/07/another-paris-mexico-flight-barred-from-us-airspace/
End every punishment doled out by the government without a trial by jury.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Oops. Hard drive crashed. No copies of the no-fly list.
This is all such a joke and epitomizes the cat and mouse game that the executive office likes to play. Any idiot can see that the clear solution is to give all supreme court justices and several federal appeals court justices in each district Q clearances to review any top secret information pertinent to the cases that they are hearing. This would allow for proper judicial review rather than trample on the constitution's system of checks and balances. Further, ALL state senators should be given Q clearances also, so that they can properly perform legislative action. When you consider the number of people working at FBI, CIA, national labs, etc, adding 50 judges and 100 senators doesn't make much difference. If people were serious about democracy, this would have happened years ago.
Will get you put on the No-Fly List.
The erosion of our liberties and freedoms under the Patriot Act have been beyond shameful. We backed that up with blunders like GITMO. I am not sure where it ends, but it has played out as if the playbook was right from an Orwell novel.
It would also be nice if we put more effort into being a likeable country rather than spending so much time, effort, money, and political capital keeping our enemies at bay and out allies paid off. If we would stop meddling in everyone else's affairs we might not have so many people and groups trying to attack us in the first place. It would take decades, as we have meddled for quite a while in quite a lot of places. But long term, it would be nice to have the moral high ground again.
logical response from the bench would be to enjoin the no-fly list.
that means shit-can it, for folks who haven't hung around the courthouse steps
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
I wasn't going to go all grammar nazi.... but since it was repeated.
It's not "the single, most damaging, thing", it's "the single most damaging thing".
"The secret here is that the No-Fly list is a farce."
It is worse than a farce, as it has become a weapon to illegally coerce cooperation among certain ethnic and religious groups. Turn state's evidence, or you might end up on the list and not be able to ever visit your family member's again. How can we as a "freedom loving American's" tolerate any citizen being strong-armed like this?! Being inaccurate at times would be forgiven by most (especially if there was a plausible challenge and review path), but to be used as it is just plain awful and illegal.
I'm pretty sure that regardless of what the court or this judge feels, the government will do whatever the heck it wants. And in the end, how would anyone force the US government to comply with the court order?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
We have to fuck with the villagers in order to save them.
Sweatpants. That's how you get put on the no-fly list.
So the government is basically conceding for this to fail.
What would happen if the executive branch (which is supposed to enforce the law) simply refused to comply with a judicial order? Can someone be held in contempt? Who would take on the role of enforcing the judicial order (in terms of compelling the action or executing punishment)?
That Act will go down in American history as the single, most damaging, threat to liberty in this country.
Senator McCarthy may have an objection to this.
If so, you're idiots. Show me where he asked for the resignation of everyone appointed by Bush and Cheney.
And tell me that there aren't folks who work for the government who wouldn't like to hurt him.
As a couple of datapoints, 10-12 years ago, in the mainstream press, were two stories, not many months apart: first, Dem. Congressman David Thomas was prevented from flying, because his name was on the no-fly list, and it took *him* two weeks to get it off.
How many folks do *you* know named David Thomas... or is that your name?
And then there was the other case, and that did *not* end well for the TSA... when they tried to keep Sen. Ted Kennedy from flying, claiming his name was on the no-fly list.
Come on, all of you on the right, let's see you posting screams of rage against Bush and Cheney for *pure* political persecution.
mark
"Who has had to hard-sell the most bullshit to the people".
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
Billions spent, law abiding people treated like criminals without due process
And where exactly do you think it's spelled out plainly that the government may not deprive you of liberty without due process of law?
Is there something relevant in 2014 that says this? And by relevant, I mean something that the People are willing to fight to protect?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The Federal government doesn't have the constitutional authority to prevent people from getting high. That's why why it took a constitutional amendment to enact alcohol prohibition. Yet, they do it now through very loose interpretations of the Commerce Clause, and the empowerment of regulatory agencies. I don't think they'll have any problem finding constitutional loopholes in a highly regulated industry, such as the transportation industry, because it operates across state lines, (not to mention internationally).
It's not that I approve of this sort of thing. Just pointing out how they get away with it.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
Rule 1: Ask questions about the no fly list.
Have gnu, will travel.
Alas, you are likely correct.
As far as I know, the "no fly list" doesn't prevent someone from getting their own pilot's license and buying or renting their own plane, nor prevent them from hiring a charter. So it's not really a "no fly" list, it's a "no commercial scheduled air travel" list (or a "who we want to inconvenience" list).
Arguably, though, even the Commerce Clause requires (published) regulations governing the activity the government wants to regulate -- so there would have to be a published regulatory process by which one ends up on (or can get themselves off of) that list. If there isn't, then the Commerce Clause should not apply.
That *might* make them realize what the government and media trying to accomplish to maintain their power and influence:
Just sayin'.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Right, so it's not just a secret, it's a secret why is it's secret. It's becoming more clear all the time that there's nothing behind their national security stonewall except embarrassment of certain officials still in office.
It's also funny that they are asserting state secrets privilege to avoid revealing to a judge something which has already been leaked to international media. It's like the judge asking for permission to know about what he already knows about.
That Act will go down in American history as the single, most damaging, threat to liberty in this country. Billions spent, law abiding people treated like criminals without due process. It truly makes me ashamed and angry at DC and the retards that reside there.
Huh. Same could be said for the Income Tax amendment. Except I bet more people have not only been inconvenienced, but arrested, jailed, and penalized under the IRS codes than the Patriot Act.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
We've gone from "of the people, by the people, for the people" to "of the government, by the government, for the government".
It's both parties. All they care about is their own power. Sometimes I suspect that our elected politicians have less power than the entrenched bureaucrats. We've learned that we can't depend on the Supreme Court to make the right decisions. So what do we do? I'm open to any ideas.
Guillotines maybe?
Hello,
While I suspect the original reason for secrecy surrounding the No Fly List was to protect government sources and methods, my suspicion is that these days there simply is no criteria at all. Information is simply added from a variety of sources with varying degrees of quality (from high-quality covert intelligence feeds to TSA agents who simply think a person "looks like" a terrorist) and that by keeping information about the lack of controls on what goes in secret, the government uses the list as a deterrent factor to would-be terrorists.
A secondary function would be to reassure the public that air-travel is still safe, but like the much-criticized and ineffectual TSA screeners, it serves as "security theater" and not a bona-fide barrier to terroristic activity.
Regards,
Aryeh Goretsky
Dexter is a good dog.
raymorris said:
> a few hundred citizens and a few thousand foreign nationals not allowed to fly into or out of the country.
You don't fly anymore!
"On August 6, U.S. District Judge Anthony Trenga ordered the Executive Branch ..."
One of my pet peeves: the journalistic practice of pretending that the federal judiciary is not part of the federal government.
Sounds even stupider when I put it into words.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
of people who would take a job at an organization like the TSA.
Seriously. I have more respect for drug dealers and prostitutes for choosing their respective lines of employment.