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The Five Nigerian Gangs Behind Most Craigslist Buyer Scams

Posted by samzenpus on from the who's-to-blame dept.

itwbennett writes Five Nigerian criminal gangs are behind most scams targeting sellers on Craigslist, and they've taken new measures to make their swindles appear legitimate, according to a study by George Mason University researchers Damon McCoy and Jackie Jones. In a new innovation, they're using professional check-writing equipment plus U.S.-based accomplices to not raise suspicions among their victims. McCoy and Jones will present their paper on Sept. 24 at the IEEE eCrime Research Summit in Birmingham, Alabama.

103 of 160 comments (clear)

  1. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Livius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The biggest scams happen on Wall Street - start there.

  2. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by SirGeek · · Score: 1

    And what happens when they've spoofed their IP addresses to point to a law enforcement building ?

    --
    UPS Sucks
  3. Scammers recruiting local "payment agents" ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 2

    ... is really old news. At least if you look at other parts of the world. These "agents" are duped into thinking they're involved in a legitimate business, and end up going to jail while the scammers laugh.

    1. Re:Scammers recruiting local "payment agents" ... by MickLinux · · Score: 2

      I wonder how much they are duped. I repeatedly see spam-ads in forums for "moneyrelative.com" except that isn't what it is. It's money ... ummm... something else.

      And the spam ads always look like somebody misplacing a comment from a completely different forum, "uhh, yeah, what kate said, it's amazing how you can earn yada yada dollars in only a month..."

      But they never say what you do for the money.

      Now, I *DO* earn yada yada dollars in a month, because I am drafting working drawings for real bridges that get built. I KNOW what I do is valuable. But if you are employed... no, let me adjust that.

      There are LOTS of jobs out there for which you can be paid a reasonable looking wage for no particular service other than time spent. How is that? Because the purpose you are serving is reducing the risk to your "employer". So you can get a job flipping houses with no money invested, taking 10% of the profit, but ALL of the loss (that is, bankruptcy) if the market crashes. And that is how your employer steals money from banks. Or you can get a job running drugs: your risk is 20-to-life if caught and you DON'T rat out your employer; or death to you and your family if you do. He makes millions, you make a good , what, maybe $70k in a year. And so on. Now, this money-relative-dot-com (name changed to protect the probably guilty) , I half suspect is nothing more than recruiting US accomplices to the Nigerian gangs. But I don't know, and I'm not willing to go over to the site and risk my browser (in case it's actually recruiting spam bots).

      But I rather suspect that most people know that it's illegitimate when they sign up for it. But they hope that it's legit, and even if not, they hope that somehow they'll slide. Because that reeeeeeaally need the money, and they've maxed out their credit cards, and a person shouldn't just give up when they can do SOMETHING to get money.... ... but a lot of times, they set themselves up for that, deliberately, before, when they chose to get the things they wanted, knowing that they'd have to go to the shady side to pay it off.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    2. Re:Scammers recruiting local "payment agents" ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      I wonder how much they are duped.

      Quite a bit. Most people haven't memorized money laundering laws.

      And unlike the jobs you mentioned, this kind of "financial courier" job leaves an electronic trail a mile wide to the "payment agent", with little to no chance of escaping arrest, trial and jail time. It's something only really clueless people would sign up for, and yes, they get duped into it.

    3. Re:Scammers recruiting local "payment agents" ... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Clueless people and greedy people. It's amazing how many people will do something they know is shady just because of the allure of the money they are promised.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:Scammers recruiting local "payment agents" ... by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      I wonder how much they are duped.

      It's not that hard for them to find a dupe. They blast out messages through email and Yahoo chat all the time from textile companies looking for "agents" in the US. They usually have some excuse about how they got your contact info. They blast out enough so the hit ratio can be minuscule. Not everyone is savvy about things related to technology. Most who fall for it are probably idiots, but even people who are intelligent in other things have fallen for it.

      The scam goes something like this: You're dupeA, they need an agent in the US to process payments, because the tax law is such that it makes the business taxes they have to pay significantly less than if the payments were processed offshore. Sometimes they do indicate that their avoidance of taxes is a gray area, which discourages people from talking about it with their friends who might tell them what's up. It is your job to simply print the checks (dupeB sent you the blanks) and mail them in the amounts and destination they tell you. In exchange, you get a commission, which essentially means writing yourself a check and depositing it into your bank. DupeB's job was to order the checks online, supposedly because they can only be sent to a US address, and DupeB is given a real bank account number to have put on the checks. DupeC is who gets the check you sent them. DupeC is selling something on craigslist, and the Nigerians have contacted him saying they want to buy his item and they'll arrange for their shipping agent to ship it to them, but the only way they can send DupeC money is by having their client, who already owes them money, send them a check. However, the amount the client owes them is more than the sale price of the craigslist item. So, DupeC needs to go deposit the check from the client (actually DupeA) in his bank, then send the difference to Nigeria via Western Union, minus a little extra for the inconvenience.

      And of course, once the checks fail to clear, your bank takes back the amount of the check from your account, and DupeC is screwed out of whatever amount he sent via Western Union.

  4. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 3, Funny

    In a lot of countries, that may not be spoofed.

    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  5. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by brainboyz · · Score: 1

    Deregulation does not prevent fraud charges, or lawsuits. As if our laws apply in Nigeria...

  6. These folks prey on the greedy and naive by NotSanguine · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

    If you've got some time on your hands, toddle over to 419 Eater and get educated. If you have even more time on your hands, become a scam baiter.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    1. Re:These folks prey on the greedy and naive by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I think another part of it is that technology/the Internet is a complete unknown to many elderly people. They don't properly know what's what online perhaps knowing enough to check their e-mail and Facebook. Ignorance of anything (no matter what your age) opens you up for fraud based on that thing.

      For example, I know nearly nothing about cars beyond basic maintenance. I go to a trusted mechanic. If he told me that a part needed to be replaced, I'd have to trust him. He could be defrauding me for all I know. To those who say "Well, just learn about cars": I don't have the time to learn everything about everything. I'd have to learn cars to double-check my mechanic, medicine to double-check my doctor, etc. At some point, you need to trust an expert about something that you don't know about.

      Normally, you can fight ignorance with education, but many elderly don't see the reason to learn about technology/the Internet in depth. They are used to doing things a certain way and that's how they'll do it for the rest of their lives. I suspect that when I'm old, despite my attempts to keep up with technology, there will be things that I don't understand and that I regard with a wary eye because "In my day, we didn't do things like that." And while I'm shaking a fist at this strange new technology and yelling at kids to get off my lawn, the young folks will roll their eyes at how clueless I am over basic technology. (Where "basic" means "we grew up with this and know nothing else.")

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:These folks prey on the greedy and naive by HornWumpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've never seen any group get as consistently scammed as kids buying their first car.

      The dumbest of them buy new cars and get in the habit.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  7. Cash or Card only by gameboyhippo · · Score: 2

    When I list something on Craigslist, I only accept cash or debit. While not foolproof, cash can be checked for legitimacy with a counterfeit detector pen. And while cards can be stolen, checking their ID will stop most cases of fraud.

  8. One way to avoid by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    the Nigerian 411 scammers is to simply give yourself the following test: "If it's too good to be true, it most definitely is." No one in their right is just going to wire several million dollars into your account in exchange for a small transaction fee. The best thing to do is just delete these emails. Or, if you feel intrepid, it might be fun to bait them along for a little bit.

    1. Re:One way to avoid by jfengel · · Score: 5, Informative

      This isn't your usual 419 scam. They're not offering millions of dollars to suckers.

      What they're doing is buying stuff from Craigslist sellers with bogus checks that look awfully real. There's another step where they send a too-large check and ask for a partial refund. The checks are so good that they clear, and the fraud isn't discovered until weeks later, at which time your bank yanks the money back.

      There's still hints of the usual 419 stuff in there, but you don't have to be either gullible or greedy. You simply have to misunderstand the idiotic system under which checks are processed, which is most of us. The idea that a certified check could fail, a month after you deposited it, is baffling to the majority of people who think of a certified check as practically good as cash.

      The checking system is so screwed up that most sellers need to treat all checks with suspicion. But credit cards are expensive to process, and Paypal... is Paypal.

    2. Re:One way to avoid by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the buyer is not able to meet in person (I don't care why), a US Postal Money order is available anywhere, up to $100 per m.o. If the buyer or his agent) wants to pick up in person, cold cash. If they can't or won't agree to either of the above payment methods, sorry, but I won't sell to them. I've never had a legitimate buyer unable to pay in one of those two ways, and everyone I've bought from on Ebay will accept a Postal MO.

    3. Re:One way to avoid by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Bah! You don't know what you're talking about. Why I put all of my Dead Nigerian Prince money and International Lottery winnings into this giant Scrooge McDuck-style vault. I shall now swim in it.

      *jumps into money vault*

      *horrible thudding sound as I hit the bottom of the empty vault*

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:One way to avoid by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      This isn't your usual 419 scam. They're not offering millions of dollars to suckers.

      What they're doing is buying stuff from Craigslist sellers with bogus checks that look awfully real. There's another step where they send a too-large check and ask for a partial refund. The checks are so good that they clear, and the fraud isn't discovered until weeks later, at which time your bank yanks the money back.

      There's still hints of the usual 419 stuff in there, but you don't have to be either gullible or greedy. You simply have to misunderstand the idiotic system under which checks are processed, which is most of us. The idea that a certified check could fail, a month after you deposited it, is baffling to the majority of people who think of a certified check as practically good as cash.

      The checking system is so screwed up that most sellers need to treat all checks with suspicion. But credit cards are expensive to process, and Paypal... is Paypal.

      True, and that is what scam artists depend on to run their con. Banks in the US have to make the funds available after a set period even though the check has not cleared; i.e. the issuing bank has not yet accepted the check and verified that it was a valid check and the funds are available in the account. Most people think that because the bank has deposited the funds in their account that the check is good; a not unreasonable expectation because most checks do not bounce and thus they never realize the bank may not have actually cleared the check before the funds were made available. The law was designed to prevent banks from putting excessive holds on checks but a side effect was to give scammers a new way to cheat people.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    5. Re:One way to avoid by jfengel · · Score: 1

      The scam in this case involves more expensive items, in the $1,500 range. (The limit is $1,000 rather than $100; I assume that's just a typo, but it's still above that range.)

      And apparently the scammers are also on that: they're starting to work up fake money orders as well. I gather that's used more on stores than on Craigslist buyers, where the store can't validate the money order before they hand over the merchandise, but I assume it'll develop.

    6. Re:One way to avoid by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The checking system is so screwed up that most sellers need to treat all checks with suspicion. But credit cards are expensive to process, and Paypal... is Paypal.

      You seem to be forgetting the obvious option here... Cash. The only cheques that shouldn't be rejected out of hand are bank cheques (because the bank who issued the cheque is holding the money in escrow). The bank cheque has a serial number you can ring the issuing bank and verify. Personal cheques are to be rejected absolutely, business cheques are to be rejected from all but the most trustworthy of clients.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:One way to avoid by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      If you fall for this scam you're nothing but a dope and you deserve to lose your money.

      It isn't about understanding how checks work. It's about understanding how buying and selling work. If you accept a check for any item you sell, you're taking a risk that the check is bad- either fake or insufficient funds in the account to pay the check. If someone wants to write you a check for more than your selling price and then wants you to send them money, you're an idiot if you do it. Period. You're giving them money and whatever you're selling to accept the risk of a bad check from them. That's nuts! No, it's stupid!

      The people they recruit to pack and ship the stuff are idiots, too. They get "paid" the same way. They get a check for $1000 or whatever and are told to deposit it, then go get , pack, and ship the "purchased" items, then send excess funds back to the buyer. These people are equally stupid and deserve to lose their money.

    8. Re:One way to avoid by jfengel · · Score: 1

      In this case, these are bank checks. They happen to be fake, but it takes a while to determine that, and most sellers don't realize that.

    9. Re:One way to avoid by mjwx · · Score: 1

      In this case, these are bank checks. They happen to be fake, but it takes a while to determine that, and most sellers don't realize that.

      Vendor Emptor.

      Bank cheques are easy to verify and, at least in Australia, hard to forge. If you're suspect of a bank cheque you can ring the issuing bank to verify them (again, at least in Australia).

      If I couldn't do this, they'd be as trustworthy as personal cheques.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  9. 419, my friend. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    the Nigerian 411 scammers is to simply give yourself the following test: "If it's too good to be true, it most definitely is." No one in their right is just going to wire several million dollars into your account in exchange for a small transaction fee. The best thing to do is just delete these emails. Or, if you feel intrepid, it might be fun to bait them along for a little bit.

    411 is the telephone number for "information" in the US. You're thinking of 419.

    Have a good day!

    1. Re:419, my friend. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And according to their site you are incorrect as well. It's not 419 it's "4-1-9" after the Nigerian Penal Code affected by it.

      And you, apparently are unaware that dashes (you know, these '-' things) are punctuation that isn't always (actually, in this case, rarely) used.

      So, you took my attempt to help someone else just to try (and fail) to insult me? You need to get a life. Really.

  10. Follow Craigslist advice ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Craigslist provides seven tips for avoiding fraud. The scam in this article involves ignoring three of those tips. The funny thing is that those three tips have nothing to do with the ambiguous "too good to be true" line that people throw around. All of those tips involve how (not) to conduct transactions on a site that provides minimal protections for fraud.

  11. Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I was selling off an ATI 9800 high-end model (was old by then though) & sent me $5,000 in money orders (wells fargo type): I was only asking for, iirc, $100 or so for the videocard too...

    Right then, This crook began to attempt to "push me" into going to the bank immediately after I wrote him back via email & called him stating "Hey buddy - you sent me a *wee bit much* for this vidcard!"

    He stated "It's a gift for your help"... lol, "yea, right"

    So, right then, I called WellsFargo & they determined the money orders were part of a scam online + a known "bad" run of them that were stolen &/or duplicated...

    Did this by their "MICR #'s" / "Routing Numbers" (for lack of a better expression - it's what I used on checks to do that in my old job back in the 1980's is why & it's similar enough here too) when I went to verify the funds being actually available or not!

    They weren't, needless to say... however, were *I* to cash in on them? I WOULD HAVE BEEN LIABLE!

    That's WRONG: Banks ought to be the ones doing THAT part of it, NOT I, as a depositor in good faith!

    Now, I have a background in my past as a loss prevention mgt. figure & I had to verify personal checks A LOT on that job - that's pretty much HOW I did it too (bank calls, & verify funds etc. - et al) - so I did the same here.

    Glad I did.

    The bank it was drafted on THEN instructed me to call Wells Fargo to verify funds!

    AGAIN - THE BANKS THAT ACCEPT FUNDS OF ANY KIND IN CHECK OR MONEY ORDER FORM SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS, as well as my OWN bank too, upon receipt of myself attempting to cash them in & deposit them!

    However - Apparently, NOWADAYS @ least, THEY DON'T... & THAT, people, is TOTAL BULLSHIT!

    Why?

    Heck - It puts the depositor @ risk, & all it TAKES is a phonecall to the bank or money order company involved to check for funds being actually present, OR, if the money order or checks involved are stolen, or counterfeit, etc.

    To me @ least?

    It seems like banks are "in on the scam" by dodging THEIR DUTIES here, in not verifying check or money order funds being present OR if they are legit (not stolen or counterfeited etc.).

    APK

    P.S.=> In the end, I went to the local FBI office with the forged/stolen checks, with the email information the crook (a "reverend" out of Atlanta, no less) gave me, along with his phone number (disposable cellphone) - needless to say, the crook stopped calling me RIGHT after I did that... apk

  12. "Counterfeit detector pens" don't exist by Schezar · · Score: 4, Informative

    cash can be checked for legitimacy with a counterfeit detector pen

    "Counterfeit detector pens" don't exist. They're just iodine: they have no special detection properties whatsoever.

    "Counterfeit pens are fairly accurate and save a lot of time, but they aren't foolproof. For instance, if the counterfeit is printed on paper with a low starch content, the pen won't detect it. If someone managed to steal a roll of unused currency paper and printed it themselves, the pen wouldn't detect it. If someone washed a $1 bill until the ink was gone and re-printed it as a $100 bill, the pen wouldn't detect it. All the pen really detects is whether the paper is made from wood pulp or an alternate, less starchy fiber."

    --
    GeekNights!
    Late Night Radio for Geeks!
    1. Re:"Counterfeit detector pens" don't exist by gameboyhippo · · Score: 1

      I can tell from your comment that you're far more enlightened than us normal people. So while I find your explanation of why counterfeit pens don't work fascinating, I even more interested in your solution to this problem. If an old lady wants to buy shelves from me that I'm selling on Craigslist, how should I make that financial transaction?

    2. Re:"Counterfeit detector pens" don't exist by Artraze · · Score: 1

      The best way to do it is just look at the watermark and or security ribbon. That detects even washed and reprinted bills, though those are more the realm of, say, Russia than someone off the street. If you get a UV light, the security ribbon will fluoresce different colors depending on the bill. It's quicker than looking through the bill, but might not actually be as effective in the sun (I gather that the $100s are particularly troublesome to fluoresce/see).

    3. Re:"Counterfeit detector pens" don't exist by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      How about stop using archaic old paper notes? Here in Australia we invented a plastic polymer for our currency which is next to impossible to counterfeit. It has transparent windows in it and holograms and all sorts of complicated stuff that only a govt would be able to reproduce. You can't rip it with bare hands and you can put in in washing machine and it comes out like new. American money by comparison is so primitive that it's laughable. Last time I was there on holiday it felt like I'd gone back in time to the 70's with your crappy old notes. In the 20 years I've lived here I've never heard of counterfeit notes, that is until this week when someone got some out but the copies were so lame it blatantly obvious they were fake.

  13. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

    calling for government regulation of airplane seat spacing

    You know, I can't speak to the rest of this, but the airline industry has been steadily making seats smaller and smaller for a long time now.

    Eventually, you reach a point where your seat is smaller than at least half of the population -- some seats are reaching the point where they barely fit your average teenager.

    Throw in people who are deciding that they can choose whether or nor people can recline the seat they paid for ... and air travel has become a really shitty experience to be avoided.

    And that's before we get to the shitty customer service, overselling aircraft, and everything else. I wouldn't fly United Airlines unless there was no recourse and I absolutely had no choice, because they've gone from bad, to terrible -- and even then, you probably get a shitty regional carrier who does an even worse job.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  14. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by NotSanguine · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Deregulation does not prevent fraud charges, or lawsuits. As if our laws apply to the wealthy and well connected in the US...

    There. FTFY.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  15. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    Deregulation does not equal misrepresenting your product.

    Why, is there some sort of super, underegulable regulation that says you shouldn't misrepresent your product?

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  16. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    As tempting as that can be, there is an easier solution. In this digital age, it's inconceivable that an alert cannot be issued by the bank granting money based on these bogus checks. Checks should be immediately verifiable for NSF and for whether the account exists or not. If for, whatever reason, they are not immediately verifiable, the customer should be warned and payment should be postponed till verified. That this is still happening in the digital age, no one but the banks are at fault.

  17. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by GrumpySteen · · Score: 3, Funny

    It doesn't mean they can bottle piss and sell it as Sprite.

    Well duh. The color is all wrong. You have to sell it as lemonade, Mello Yellow, Mountain Dew or something else with at least a vaguely similar coloration.

  18. Nothing to do with Nigeria by Desolation+Row · · Score: 1

    There are several ways to accept money safely, but a Certified Check has never, ever been one of them.

    Seriously, how can everyone not know this?

  19. hm by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    This might help explain all the "your cv is being attractive to us" spam I've been bombarded with recently. Maybe they're recruiting (perhaps unknowing) accomplices.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  20. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought a good host file could protect against this?

  21. Checks by genka · · Score: 5, Funny

    I gladly accept Nigerian checks on CL. This way the scammers are out of FedEx/UPS fee and I add another fake check to my office collection.

    1. Re:Checks by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      I gladly accept Nigerian checks on CL. This way the scammers are out of FedEx/UPS fee and I add another fake check to my office collection.

      Not a good idea. You are dealing with crooks who may or may not have accomplices near you and you are giving them a real address. Check out 419eater.com for safe ways to do that if you want to bait scammers.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Checks by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

      They don't pay the FedEx fee, they use stolen FedEx account numbers.

  22. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    Basic fraud statutes apply

  23. check writing equipment... by tekrat · · Score: 4, Funny

    how did the scammers get professional check writing equipment? Did they buy it on craigslist with a fake check??

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:check writing equipment... by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      'Professional check writing equipment' has been a laser printer and special toner for 20+ years now.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  24. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1, Troll

    Banks don't have time to make a phone call for every check you deposit, it is your responsibility to only accept checks from people you know so you can recover the funds if the check bounces. Your bank's job is to submit the check on your behalf to the bank it was drawn on and request that it be paid. You clearly are gullible and were fleeced, that isn't the bank's fault it is your fault. But because I'm a really nice guy I'd like to let you know that I have many contacts in the scammer community and believe I know the person who fleeced you. I can help you recover all your money but will need a $100 retainer sent via MoneyGram and will only keep 10% of the amount I recover. Reply for details.

  25. Not New by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    > they're using professional check-writing equipment plus U.S.-based accomplices to not raise suspicions among
    > their victims

    Funny I was just posting my little anecdote about these groups on slashdo recently ( http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ), not only does this jive exactly with my limited exposure to these gangs, but, I even got them to try and recruit me to thelp them. Thing is.... this was a room in my house....I have not been a landlord in several years, and this was several years before I stopped so.... this was at least 5-7 years ago.

    so while its true, its not new. In fact, I left this detail out of my previous tale but, after recieving the money orders that I knew were fake, I did look over them and attempt to verify that they were fakes, which the claimed issuer was happy to verify for me. That said, had I not known their source, they might have fooled me, they were decent fakes that were professionally printed, even then.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  26. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think his point was that fraud statues are a form of regulation, which they are.

  27. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

    (Over) Regulation does not prevent fraud charges, or lawsuits.

    Here is the deal, criminals are criminals. Period. All the rules and regulations in the world won't prevent them from being criminals.

    IF you're making the case that regulation prevents crime, you're simply in error, it does not. Oftentimes it doesn't even prevent the crimes it was designed to prevent, it just adds an extra step in the criminal behavior. All the rules and regulations designed to prevent money laundering hasn't even put a dent in money laundering, it simply made it slightly more difficult. Meanwhile, it affects everyone who has legitimate banking transactions, costing everyone a little.

    In short, Regulations rarely match the intended results.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  28. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Not to mention that the airlines have a financial incentive to make the seats smaller beyond fitting more people in the plane. If the seats are small enough and a passenger is going to take up more than one seat, they can charge him for two seats' worth. This might not have seemed like a major issue when the seats fit 95% of passengers. However, if the seats wind up fitting only 50% of passengers, then half of the passengers are going to have to pay double to fly. And while "well those people should just lose weight" *might* have been a semi-valid retort before, "losing weight" won't narrow the distance between the ends of your shoulder bones.

    Sadly, as the airlines keep changing seat size, they don't publish this information. (That I'm aware of, I'd love to see a report on this.) This means consumers can't make an informed decision on the matter - just what the airlines want.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  29. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by operagost · · Score: 4, Insightful

    LOL... but seriously, the Check21 law helped checks "clear" faster, and ushered in the era of check-less bill pay, but have mostly only helped the banks. They'll "clear" a check, then suddenly the bank it's drawn on will discover fraud a week later and do a chargeback. That doesn't sound clear to me.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  30. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by tibit · · Score: 1

    There's no such thing as IP spoofing on TCP/IP traffic. Get real.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  31. Scambaiting by phorm · · Score: 1

    A friend of mine has a game where he responds to the "free vacation" guys with just "yes" for every question. He then posts the results to his FB along with how long he managed to bait the faux-telemarketer, and what their last words were (usually profanity).

    Quite entertaining

  32. Airlines should charge by weight/size by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

    All the other air-freight carriers do.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:Airlines should charge by weight/size by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I was going to comment on how people aren't "freight", but I think that's where we're headed.

      Soon people might go on diets before a trip not so they'll fit in that bathing suit better, but so they'll save some money on the pre-flight weigh-in.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  33. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

    I'm 6'5" ... and former swimmer (broad shoulders).... Airline seats suck.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  34. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Informative

    It seems like banks are "in on the scam" by dodging THEIR DUTIES here, in not verifying check or money order funds being present OR if they are legit (not stolen or counterfeited etc.).

    I don't have an experience with this, but my identity was stolen once and I got the same impression about the credit card companies and credit agencies. If your identity is stolen, it's no big deal for them. They just push back and bad charges to the companies they came from. e.g. If Crook steals your identity, opens a credit card in your name, and goes on a spending spree at Electronics Hut, Electronics Hut will be caught having to pay for all of that equipment that Crook "bought."

    The same seems to be true about this check fraud. The bank doesn't care if the check you deposit bounces horrendously. After all, if it does, it doesn't hurt them. It hurts you. Since they aren't hurt, they see check fraud as something for their customers to worry about instead of something that they could work to reduce. Now, if a "cleared" check gave the person that money, the money couldn't be yanked back once the bad check bounced, and the bank was stuck covering the deficit, you can guarantee that banks would have a fix in place for this scam within a week.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  35. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    Indeed.

    "Main St. built America,
    Wall St. destroyed America."

  36. Re:fuck your country USA by C0R1D4N · · Score: 1

    An American or "Person in America" inventing something is not quite the same as "America invented it". If it wasn't financed/produced via the US Gov't America didn't invent it.

  37. *sigh* A fool and their money... by sirwired · · Score: 1

    Every grocery store and quickie-mart I go to that does wire transfer has signs, brochures, etc. warning you about all the most common scams, of which this one is most certainly on the list. Those that persist in not yet getting the memo that using WU/MG to send money to anybody you don't actually know is insane are beyond help.

    Hint: Why would somebody send you a huge check and expect you to forward the money on to their "agent"? Why would they just not pay the "agent" themseleves?

    You can't fix stupid... while I feel sorry for those that fall for these schemes, I'm not sure what can be done to help them.

    1. Re:*sigh* A fool and their money... by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

      Guess what happens when you tell people they are gullible or fools? They get defensive and mad at you. Part of me wants the scammers in jail, the other part realizes that we don't have enough jail cells and it wouldn't matter because a fool and his money are soon parted. I Person X doesn't scam them out of their money then Person Y or Z will. It's just a matter of when and for how much, not if.

  38. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Not funny. I have a rich relative in Nigeria. He's sending me 6 million dollars.

  39. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Sure they suck. But would it suck worse for the government to mandate first class seats throughout?

    There are _airplane_ models that I just won't fly on. Because the seats suck so bad. A large % of flight miles is by people who fly enough that market forces do work.

    I'd still rather suck it up for 3-4 hours in cattle class + 1 TSA groping vs. 3 days on Amtrack. As soon as the Amtrack is behind schedule they put you on a plane anyhow.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  40. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Indeed.

    "Main St. built America,
    Wall St. destroyed America."

    What America are you talking about? The one where you hope in your Chevrolet to go down to the McDonalds and get a Coke and a hamburger with delicious Heinz ketchup, all lit and powered by General Electric light bulbs and power plants. Is that all "Main St." to you? America is built by large corporations and those corporations get financing from Wall Street. There are people on Wall Street that will finance anything that they can and get so greedy for profit they don't realize how deep a hole they dug until it collapses on them. Maybe we could stop that with a little bit of regulations? Maybe, but we wouldn't want to put any sort of restrictions on the "Free Market", so instead the tax payers can cover the cost.

    Either make investors on Wall Street eat their own bullshit when it goes bad, or regulate them to prevent them from doing dumb shit.

  41. The Tom Clancy solution by PapayaSF · · Score: 1

    A tech billionaire should hire a team of mercenaries to track down and kill scammers, spammers, and malware authors.

    --
    Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
    1. Re:The Tom Clancy solution by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

      ... only to find out that the mercenaries were really scammers who took his money and skipped town.

  42. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

    De-regulation /= anarchy /=-anarcho-capitalism

    --
    If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
    Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  43. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  44. Learn to READ please... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "You clearly are gullible and were fleeced, that isn't the bank's fault it is your fault." - by naughtynaughty (1154069) on Monday September 08, 2014 @01:12PM (#47853865)

    See subject-line above: I didn't get "fleeced" - I caught it w/ the FBI helping me STOP from getting ripped off!

    APK

    P.S.=> YOU, however, are CLEARLY a miserable little troll w/ nothing better to do than make sockpuppet disposable accounts to *attempt* to mess with others online, & YOU FAIL @ that since you cannot read, illiterate as you are... apk

  45. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by nblender · · Score: 1

    don't forget paying $2.00 for a pillow or a blanket. How about charging $10 if you want to book your seat more than 24 hours in advance (so your child can sit next to you instead of some stranger, perhaps)... How about showing up 90 minutes before your flight instead of 30 minutes like you used to be able to do.. Getting groped at the gate... taking off your shoes and belt. Putting all of your valuables in a basket only to have it disappear out of sight while you wait to walk through a machine that will render you in naked form while firing ionizing radiation at you and being treated like a terrorist. Having your wife groped in front of your 5 year old son who will later assume this is all a perfectly normal thing for people in authority to do...

    And what makes the news is people who can't recline their seats?

    You can really get away with a lot of shit and people will still voluntarily subject themselves to it so they can get to their precious all-inclusive 7 day vacation.

  46. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    Main St. refers to the Wild West.

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

    The time frame you are talking about is after 1920's -- far after America jumped the shark ~ 1819.

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

  47. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    APK, I love your writing style. You need to write a book about something. WIth all of the formatting you use. And put several PSs at the end.

  48. Re:fuck your country USA by Fwipp · · Score: 1

    ARPANET ringing any bells?

    (that said, GP post is xenophobic trash, even if it's meant to be satire)

  49. Re: fuck your country USA by C0R1D4N · · Score: 1

    He also said 80%+ of modern/technical things.

  50. Re: fuck your country USA by Fwipp · · Score: 1

    Point taken. Anyway, prolly best not to feed this type of troll.

  51. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    Check21 created the legal framework to allow for check truncation. Your bank never "clears" a check, checks are only paid at the bank they are drawn on. My bank gives me instant access to all my check deposits but I don't labor under the delusion that means the checks have cleared. The bank a check is drawn on generally doesn't do much more than see if the account has enough funds and relies on its customers to inform them if a particular check that was presented was fraudulent, this can take some time. You always remain responsible for bad checks that you give to someone else, within the statute of limitations. The same is true of many things. Let's say you had a rare coin and sold it to me for $500 and 6 months later I sold it to someone else for $600. That someone else took the coin into a dealer 3 months after that to have it appraised and is informed that it was a fake. That person has legal recourse to recover the $600 from me and I in turn have legal recourse to recover the $500 I paid to you for the fake coin. That 9 months have passed doesn't matter, that you thought the coin was real doesn't matter, that I thought the coin was real also doesn't matter. Just because you got a bank to give you money for a bad check doesn't shift responsibility for the loss from you to the bank. So as to make it clear, when you accept a check from someone you are taking on a risk that the check is bad. Don't take checks from strangers or people you know who might stiff you.

  52. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    Banks facilitate the payment of checks drawn on other banks. They are not in the business or compensated for taking the risk that the check you give them is bad.

  53. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    We have more regulations each year than last and I think the amount of dumb shit done every year is pretty constant. That isn't to say it wouldn't increase if the regulations disappeared, but I do think that regulations try to plug the hole the last clever scam artist figured out and there is no shortage of yet to be uncovered holes that are or will be exploited.

  54. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by mjwx · · Score: 1

    You know, I can't speak to the rest of this, but the airline industry has been steadily making seats smaller and smaller for a long time now.

    The average seat width in the age of the Boeing 707 was 17", today it's 17.5".

    Care to compare the average flight prices from the 70's (in adjusted dollars) to now?

    Eventually, you reach a point where your seat is smaller than at least half of the population

    We actually have the opposite problem, the population's arse size is growing.

    A lot of airlines still have larger seats in economy, Singapore have 19" seats on their A330 and A380. The trade off is that flying Singapore costs a fair bit more than say, Air Asia which has 17" seats.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  55. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    Sure they suck. But would it suck worse for the government to mandate first class seats throughout?

    That's a bit of a false dichotomy. It's not "worst possible seats ever" versus "personal cocoon of comfort with hot towels".

    Yes, airline travel is far more convenient than any other long distance travel. But there should be some minimum standard of passenger space and comfort.

    If more than half the population physically cannot get into your seats, adjust their position, or cross and uncross their legs ... then I think seats are way too small. Some seats are so damned small you literally are unable to move the entire time without elbowing your neighbor.

    And, really, half is way too low.

    Because, really, who wants to ride like you're in a Jeepney from Mumbai while in an airplane?

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  56. Book by gargleblast · · Score: 1

    Seconded. Maybe something about Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    1. Re:Book by gargleblast · · Score: 1

      Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. Check.

  57. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by ameen.ross · · Score: 1

    If that's Check21, then I can't wait for Check22 and I hope that I shall live to see it!

    --
    $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
  58. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    Seriously though, people alleging a world finance conspiracy to screw the little guy is exactly why the World Trade Organization was targeted.

    There is of course no connection at all between the World Trade Center, some office buildings in New York and the World Trade Organisation, an international organisation based in Geneva.

    But then again, maybe Osama made the same mistake you did.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  59. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    my identity was stolen once

    No, your "identity" was not stolen.

    Somebody pretended to be you and some idiot didn't check who they were dealing with.

    The fact that it causes you problems is proof that the "credit card companies and credit agencies" are incompetent.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  60. Re:Checks for Craigslist? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    I always do craigslist transactions at the local police station.

    That must make the whole sexual transactions thing extra interesting.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  61. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Gollum · · Score: 1

    Not strictly true. You can do it easily if you are on the path normally taken to get to the spoofed IP. For example, see Linux TProxy.

    The main constraint preventing it in the general case is the difficulty of guessing the sequence numbers.

  62. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

    Yeah cos that worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    --
    There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
  63. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

    Here is the deal, criminals are criminals. Period. All the rules and regulations in the world won't prevent them from being criminals.

    That's not true. In fact you're completely wrong. Criminals are not the Dr Evil types in the movies who just love doing bad stuff. It is precisely this thinking that makes solving the problem of criminal behaviour so tough. Criminals are usually regular people who simply found an opportunity to make some easy profit by breaking the rules. That's all it is. And the easiest fix is regulations to make compliance and easier path than defiance.

  64. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

    I see no problem with regulating airline seating. It is clearly a problem that gets raised quite frequently, even resulting in a few diverted flights recently. If the average distance between seats is smaller than the average length between a person's hip and knee, then someone has to step in and sort it out. The Airlines aren't doing it, so sooner or later we're going to get a plane rage incident that result in the loss of life (seriously - we've had case of people going completely off the rails mid-flight over this).

  65. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Yes, my identity was stolen. The thieves had access to my name, SSN, date of birth, and address. From where, I'll never know. (The police were little help and the credit card company actively stonewalled them.) Had the thieves not paid for rush delivery of the credit card they opened in my name and THEN changed the address on the card, the card wouldn't have accidentally been delivered to me instead of to them. Then, they would have been able to run up a tab in my name and I would have been on the hook to pay it. At least, until I proved that I wasn't responsible for the debt which would have been an arduous process. As it was, merely convincing the credit card company that I didn't open the card account was difficult as the representative tried claiming that perhaps my wife opened the account in my name with my information without telling me. (She didn't.)

    Of course, I agree with the rest of your statement. Some idiot didn't check things. The mother's maiden name wasn't even close and yet the card was approved. No red flags went up when the address was immediately changed to another state's address. No red flags went up when "I" called asking for a $5,000 cash advance when the card wasn't activated yet.

    As far as incompetence goes, I think it's partly that, but partly a lack of caring. Badly issued credit cards aren't THEIR problem. They're the problem of the people who have the cards opened in their name and the merchants who get paid with the bad cards and then have the money pulled back. The credit card companies lose little to no money on this and so don't have an incentive to fix the system.

    In fact, even helping with an investigation "hurts" them. When I asked what the address on the account was, Capital One refused to give it to me. I had the right name, social security number, and date of birth, but they wouldn't give me the address because (their exact words): "If you go and kill those people, we're liable." So giving someone a credit card in my name that could potentially devastate my credit? No problem. Divulging the address of said people to the person who actually has the name/SSN/DOB of the account? Big problem.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  66. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

    Yes, my identity was stolen.

    No, you are still the only you.

    The people who've been scammed are the banks, credit card companies and so on that are not using reliable ways of establishing your identity.

    But they want it to look like your problem to make you pay the costs, instead of them.

    (I'm more or less in violent agreement with you about everything except this whole "identity theft" thing, which is crafted to make it look like your problem).

    In fact, even helping with an investigation "hurts" them. When I asked what the address on the account was, Capital One refused to give it to me. I had the right name, social security number, and date of birth, but they wouldn't give me the address because (their exact words): "If you go and kill those people, we're liable."

    If you were paranoid you might speculate that the person you were talking to was an accomplice.

    --
    Watch this Heartland Institute video
  67. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by tibit · · Score: 1

    Nobody is on such path. As in, nobody who needs the money badly enough to spoof their IPs to pull off scams worth peanuts.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  68. Re:We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

    If you have not watched "Continuum" you should. Then figure out how to avoid that situation, because evolution is working towards that ugliness.

    --
    "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
  69. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    I was still me, but someone else was pretending to be me and, by doing so, was damaging my financial reputation. Thus, the value of "me" (financially) was put at risk. To use a car analogy, it would be as if someone "borrowed" your car every night when they knew you were asleep and returned it by the time you awoke. You still had full use of the car, but mysterious dings that "appeared" on the car would reduce the value of it.

    As far as the representative being an accomplice, I don't think that was the case as everyone I talked to in that company varied from unhelpful to actively stonewalling both me and the police. At this point, it doesn't matter. My credit is frozen which means nobody can open a new line of credit - not even me - unless I first thaw my credit file (and pay for the "privilege".)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  70. Re: We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by Gollum · · Score: 1

    In this context, something like tor or a socks proxy would also qualify as spoofing ones IP address, and could throw an ICBM on the wrong track. Just saying.

  71. Too many scams... by douglas.w.goodall300 · · Score: 1

    I have tried to sell my "stuff" on CL but I get so many scam responses that I cannot find the real ones without a lot of study. I see why eBay uses paypal. Since my last experience a year ago, I have not even tried to use CL.

  72. Re:Some fool *tried* that on me on "postaroo"... a by operagost · · Score: 1

    The bank a check is drawn on generally doesn't do much more than see if the account has enough funds

    That's exactly the scenario I'm talking about. There is little in the way of banks knowing that the account the (substitute) check is drawn on has the funds. I'm not addressing possible reversals. Yet, we seem to hear about people having checks clear-- that is, a full business day has passed-- and somehow they don't know if the account has money or not. Why are they allowed this subterfuge? Because Check21 is not subject to ACH rules. That's B.S.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  73. Re: We need to carpet bomb Nigeria by tibit · · Score: 1

    I think it is disingenuous to use the term "IP spoofing" to mean taking control over a part of the networking stack of another machine somewhere on the network. Because that's what a tor exit node software does. I think the real issue is that an IP address is not a personal identity, and can't be used a such.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  74. Parrot by gargleblast · · Score: 1

    Polly want a cracker?

  75. Narcissism by gargleblast · · Score: 1

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder symptoms continued:

    * Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior

    Previously.

  76. Textbook case by gargleblast · · Score: 1

    Oh that would be ... let's see ... fantasizing about success.

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder. But diagnosis is nothing compared to treatment. Do scroll down to the "When to see a doctor" and "Treatment" sections of those pages sometime.

  77. Re:"GaRgLeDoUcHe"'s projecting again by gargleblast · · Score: 1

    Err, no. No Pete, you got me. What was I thinking? Diagnosing personality disorders without a license. So - here's what you're gonna do. Print out all our correspondence, take it to your doctor (a good one, mind) and say "WTF is it with this gargledouche prick?" He'll take it from there. And I'm terrified of the consequences, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

    Don't delay. Peace out.