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Tesla Plans To Power Its Gigafactory With Renewables Alone
AmiMoJo writes In his press conference, Elon Musk stated that the factory will produce all of its own energy using a combination of solar, wind, and geothermal. Engineering.com looks at the feasibility of the plans. Spoiler alert: it looks possible, though some storage will be required. Fortunately, if there is one thing the Gigafactory won't be short of it's batteries. From the article: "The numbers don’t lie. The site could realistically produce more than 2900 MWh of renewable electricity each day ... 20% more than it needs. These are conservative estimates on production and worst-case estimates on consumption, and it’s clear that there’s enough renewable energy to run the plant with some to spare."
I think it is wonderful that they will try this out, but don't want my tax dollar to finance 40% (or whatever) of their power costs. Embed the cost in the finances of the company and the product cost, please. Then I'll be cheering you on for success.
"all of its own energy using a combination of solar, wind, and geothermal"
No, that's not what it says. It says it will be net-zero. That's a big difference.
This plant will be grid-connected. It will simply produce as much energy as it uses. Not all the time, not 24 hours.
> If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
You ask the local government. They all do it. They just have different ideas of which ones to fund and which ones not to.
But if you have a factory you want to build, and it's going to employ, say, 1000 people, you'll find a lineup of governments willing to give you a tax break.
I figured they would power it with hype on Slashdot.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
you posted your answer:politics.
I am not for the tax breaks but the state of Arizona should come out ahead even after them. This factory will represent 3% of the states economy.
Tesla is building the factory for the purpose of getting the cost of batteries down to make a 4 door sedan in the 30k range though I expect it to cost more like 35k in the end AFTER government incentives.
As for the Toyota gas pedal thing, Tesla also got slapped with all of the 'fire' stories even though fires are more common in gas vehicles.
from the linked article at engineering.com:
"Musk said that the factory would be aligned with true north so equipment could be located with GPS ..."
Can anyone here make sense of that statement? GPS only works when buildings are aligned with true north?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Nice, but... I love when articles say numbers never lie.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
They get tax breaks because it's part of the deal to open the factory in said area. It's basically a big competition and everyone wants this factory since it brings with it the big four letter word JOBS. That's right jobs. It doesn't matter where they come from but jobs jobs jobs. American jobs. These here are good ol' American jobs which any politician will look at like the entire factory is actually made out of gold. Shiny, golden PR that will make them look like some kind of religious savior.
Tesla has been fighting really hard against the status quo, so go off pretending like they have every politician in their pocket is hilarious.
Elon Musk is rightfully placed as one of the better figures of humanity. The guy is a complete pioneer who is revolutionizing civilization one step at a time. He has talent, drive, ambition, and most importantly, isn't interested with petty politics or big fat bank accounts. He's a scientist at heart who just wants to see humanity move forward and is ACTUALLY DOING IT in a way and on a scale that no one else has before.
All that and he's this remarkably humble guy. Blows my mind.
Hoover dam is in Nevada. It matters not how they power their factory.
case closed.
I get it, I really do, but the romanticism of the electric car is far more justified than the romanticism of the Prius. The Prius is a gasoline car that is good at using gasoline. An electric car is a replacement for gasoline, a Prius is an iteration on gasoline. If you believe gasoline production/use is bad, you have to believe that electric = good, while Prius = less bad.
as far as creating an affordable electric car, everybody agrees Teslas are too expensive, even Musk.... well, that is the POINT of this factory. Batteries suck, and our best batteries are horribly expensive, the only way to make them cheaper is to make more, faster. They have a 3 year plan for a $35,000 sedan. To go from $128,000 to $69,000 to $35,000 in 8 years is amazing, and that is where the "Musk Worship" comes from. Some of the first cars were electric, and since then incredibly wealthy auto manufacturers around the world have been telling us it is all but impossible.
His company doesn't get tax breaks to succeed. He gets tax breaks to entice bringing lots of jobs to THAT state instead of some OTHER state. Getting lots of jobs gets you re-elected.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
hahahaa.
Obviously a battery factory will have some amount of batteries on site. The 2400 MWh/day figure from the article would be around 30 000 full Model S battery packs, so going completely off-grid using whatever batteries they have lying around is unfeasible. Anyway, no point in not using them, right?
Musk does a lot of awesome things.
Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed?"
Is it getting major tax breaks?
"If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?"
don't make any money. Also, hire enough people where giving a company a tax breaks makes it worth while due to secondary a tertiary factors.
"Why are Tesla's cars so rudely expensive?"
becasue they are high end luxury vehicles. Do you send letter to Mercedes telling them their care a rudely expensive?
" Is there a plan for a 4 door sedan that a real family can afford in the 20K - 30K "
Yes.
"range like the Prius?"
Like the Prius? no, they will actually be good.
"Why is it that a guy with a big mouth and political friends on all sides gets so much tax subsidy, loans, breaks and deals?"
no more then any there similar company. Frankly I would rather people making clean energy get them, and coal and oil companies snot get them.
"when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?"
A bigger question is: Why didn't the media talk about the discovery that they where, in FACT, not bogus claims?
"3.8 million priuses have been sold and cab drivers will tell you they easily go into the 300K range and even if the battery runs out the car is still useable."
Funny you bring this up. I was just talking to Prius drivers this weekend, Many where bitching that the computer can get stuck in a loop and the car has to be off and sit before it will reset. apparently starting them up in the wrong way can cause this to happen.
Junk bond stats(b-) is based on they way it got money and that it's different the tradition automakers.
I"m pretty sure risk fro fighting the 3rd party car sales is also taken into account.
The man is changing the world.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed? If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
Offer to open a factory and let localities knock themselves out trying to woo you. This is not unique to Tesla.
Why are Tesla's debt bonds in Junk status but he continues to get freebies from states?
It is junk because the business has a lot of risks, not because the business plan is fundamentally unsound. Bonds are rated according to risk. In the long run the riskier investments pay out more. Look at the stock price of Tesla if you want to see where the market thinks it is going.
Why are Tesla's cars so rudely expensive? Is there a plan for a 4 door sedan that a real family can afford in the 20K - 30K range like the Prius?
You cannot buy a battery so large at the moment for such a low cost. In part, this factory is an attempt to get some economy of scale so that the price will come down. But also remember that the margins on a luxury car are far higher than the margins on a family sedan. Toyota makes something like 20% on each Lexus that it makes, but only 10% overall (including Lexus). You would be nuts (or very, very confident) to enter the sub-10% market with a new product. Tesla may very well enter the low-end market some day, but I wouldn't hold my breath. For now, think of them as Audi, BMW, or Mercedes.
Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?
Are you kidding? Just wait until Tesla slips up. They will eventually, and the media will jump all over them. The only thing that the media loves more than an underdog is the story of a fallen angel.
Not sure why people need a super-hero.
If you can solve that, you will change the world in a serious way. You'll put a lot of "personalities" out of business - from Obama and Putin to the gossip columnist at the Enquirer.
3.8 million priuses have been sold and cab drivers will tell you they easily go into the 300K range and even if the battery runs out the car is still useable.
Prius is not all electric. Tesla makes no hybrids. If the Prius were all electric it would probably cost another $10k, or it would have to downsize like the Leaf.
But instead we continue to give money to the cartoon guy.
I'm not sure why you are picking on Tesla. We give tons of tax breaks to Toyota. Google for "Toyota Plano tax breaks" to see about their new headquarters. Hell, the Prius was directly subsidized for years through the same federal tax credit as the Teslas. Nissan and Mitsubishi get the exact same tax credit as the Tesla.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
that's ironic, considering nevada has some of the cheapest electricity rates in the country, because of the hoover dam.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I guess it must be either a misquote by the journalist (and this particular one I think would be rather inexcusable when your website is called "engineering.com"), or Musk doesn't have a clue about both GPS and solar panels.
Solar panels can be aligned with true south for maximum power production, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you just lay them flat on the roof, as the picture clearly shows. Also, because the are constructed of conducting a semi-conducting materials, they tend to be pretty good at shielding RF, so I'd say there is zero chance you'll get a GPS fix under that roof, even with the latest GPS chipsets.
If they need energy storage, I guess they could use every batterypack for a number of cycles (10-20 cycles or so) before delivering them in a car; that way, with the added bonus of stress-testing every single pack!
This confirms my suspicion that Tesla is really a battery company masquerading as a car company. The cars are just a vehicle to sell lots of batteries ;).
The grid in Reno might have a problem handling large swings in renewable power but since the factory should have lots of batteries, they can use them to smooth out the power fluctuations and use this as a demo site to sell battery grid backup systems.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
I am not for the tax breaks but the state of Arizona should come out ahead even after them.
The factory will be in Nevada, you're getting your arid wastelands mixed up. Arizona = massive chasms/cacti, Nevada = slot machines/nuke tests.
Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed? If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
They don't need tax breaks to succeed, but since the states were competing to get the gigafactory, the state that offers the highest tax breaks wins. If no state offered tax breaks on the factory, they'd have built it anyhow.
Why are Tesla's debt bonds in Junk status but he continues to get freebies from states?
The junk bond status is because S&P doesn't think Tesla will succeed. It's an opinion.
Why are Tesla's cars so rudely expensive? Is there a plan for a 4 door sedan that a real family can afford in the 20K - 30K range like the Prius?
Tesla has always been very open about their strategy. Electric cars are very expensive to make. Their plan was to introduce a high-cost sports car (the roadster) to build experience/resources/etc, and use the revenue from that to design a luxury sedan (the model S), and use that to start to get some economies of scale and use the revenue from that to build a mass-market vehicle (the model 3).
Their next stage of vehicle will not be 20-30K, but it will be a 40K vehicle competing with sedans like the Camry. As soon as it is possible to build a car for 20-30K that will compete with ICE cars, you can be sure that they'll do it.
In other words, they're currently limited by technology (or rather the cost of the technology).
Why is it that a guy with a big mouth and political friends on all sides gets so much tax subsidy, loans, breaks and deals?
Errm, isn't that the way US politics work in general?
Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?
How is this Tesla's fault? In fact, the media has been rather harsh on Tesla for minor problems like the occasional fire in a crash, despite the fact that they're still less likely to have that happen than regular cars.
3.8 million priuses have been sold and cab drivers will tell you they easily go into the 300K range and even if the battery runs out the car is still useable.
The Prius has been on the market a lot longer than Tesla's cars. There's a guy putting 40K miles on his Roadster per year without issues, and they've got various warranties for batteries over the long haul.
But instead we continue to give money to the cartoon guy.
Nevada's government is claiming that they'll get an 80:1 return on investments for the tax breaks. If true, it seems like a good investment to me. I'm a bit skeptical that they'll get that high of a return, but it seems certain they'll get back more than their investment.
Now this is a convoluted energy unit: MWh/day! Like measuring time in miles/kmh!
Nerds: get a grip.
So 1800 of the 2900 MWh of power is based on the ability to count the number of wind turbines shown in the marking picture of the factory? And we are taking this as truth of the number that are deploy-able in the area. This based on the fact that they are building the building Magnetic north aligned to help with GPS? Wow - lets grab Tesla's marketing materials and just swallow what comes out.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
A burning car you can get away from if you are in it, you stop and get out.. A car that is doing 80mph and accelerating you cant get away from if you are in it. Unless you want to die with most of your skin ripped off.
Toyota's failure was 900X worse than teslas biggest problems.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
-- Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed?
It has to compete against every other company which also sit on huge piles of tax breaks.
-- If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
Build a factory. Promise to hire lots of people. Take government officials out for a series of expensive dinners where you talk about all the tax dollars your employees wages will bring. Do whatever else everyone else does.
-- Why are Tesla's debt bonds in Junk status but he continues to get freebies from states?
I don't know. Maybe if you can be too big to fail you can also be to small to fail?
-- Why is it that a guy with a big mouth and political friends on all sides gets so much tax subsidy, loans, breaks and deals?
Nah, I'm sure the "big mouths" are just getting a drop in the bucket. There are plenty of tax subsidies going to bigger fish discussed only behind closed doors.
-- Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable
-- product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?
Was that entirely bogus? If so then I missed that. I was aware it was over-hyped. What isn't? News people are trying to make money too.
-- Not sure why people need a super-hero.
Do they? I didn't notice. Don't get me wrong, I think Elon Musk throwing away his cue cards in a press conference and anouncing "I am Iron Man" to the anoyance of his army buddy a day after kicking some bad guys ass in a flying suit he built himself would be AWESOME! But I for one don't NEED that. My life will be complete even if it never happens.
-- 3.8 million priuses have been sold and cab drivers will tell you they easily go into the 300K range and even if the battery runs out
-- the car is still useable.
So the pinacle of human technology has been reached! We need develop nothing more. Let's pull all of our kids out of school and go have some fun in our shiny new Priuses!
-- But instead we continue to give money to the cartoon guy.
LOL. Sure.. we give money to LOTS of cartoon guys. Many are doing much worse things with that money than trying to perfect an electric car. Let's pick just one and bitch about him so that all the other ones can keep up the status quot!
-- This factory will represent 3% of the states economy.
Really? Wow, I didn't realize Arizona was that bad off! Seriously though, even if it seems to help in the short term do you really want a whole state to be dependant on one single factory for that large a piece of it's economy? Arizona, just go ask Michigan about that and then have a long, hard thinking session about the future.
A car that is doing 80mph and accelerating you cant get away from if you are in it.
Thats not really accurate, you can shift to neutral and hit the brakes.
I mean its bad but lets keep the BS in check.
" Some of the first cars were electric, and since then incredibly wealthy auto manufacturers around the world have been telling us it is all but impossible."
And it still is. Even Elon Musk can not do it. Maybe someday but today you have to spend as much as many peoples homes cost to buy a Tesla.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Wind is going for 2.5 cents per kWh http://www.greentechmedia.com/... and solar is going for 5 cents a kWh http://www.greentechmedia.com/... Why would you pay more?
You ask the local government. They all do it. They just have different ideas of which ones to fund and which ones not to.
States and the Federal government should just set the corporate tax rate to 0% for all corporations. And increase the tax on higher incomes progressively to pay for it.
All those unproductive and wealth destroying things that corporations both large and small do in order to avoid the high corporate taxes in the United States could be avoided and the increased capital could go back into creating higher paying jobs and profits to shareholders which are all already taxed as income anyway.
Others have already answered this more succinctly ("politics"), but sure, I'll bite.
I get a little tired of the Musk worship.
Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed? If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
Rich people can affect public policy to help them make more money. But in this case, think of it less as giving tax breaks, and more of giving tax incentives for finally succeeding at doing something we've been trying to do for a long time anyway. I'm sure Musk made plenty of threats to build this factory somewhere in Asia if he didn't get favorable treatment here in the US. At least, he would have been a dumbass not to.
Why are Tesla's debt bonds in Junk status but he continues to get freebies from states?
S&P 's reasoning was that Tesla had all of their investment in one kind of product: electric cars and batteries. Not enough diversity to avoid risk. So if China preemptively opened their own Gigafactory and undercut Tesla's battery prices, all of Tesla's assets would be kind of worthless and they'd go kaput. It already happened with Solyndra, it could well happen again. Hell, we might as well give up and let China build batteries and electric cars for the world now.
Why are Tesla's cars so rudely expensive? Is there a plan for a 4 door sedan that a real family can afford in the 20K - 30K range like the Prius?
OK, I'm not a Musk worshipper, but I've followed enough tech news that the "Model E".. oops, sorry Ford, "Model 3" will be priced at 35K after they finish fleecing the early adopters for funding all of the preliminary engineering R&D costs with the Model S and the Model X. And they would have come out with the Model 3 sooner, but one of the blockers is... the lack of a Gigafactory. Tesla already consumes the majority the world's supply of Li-ion batteries serving the Model S production as it is.
Why is it that a guy with a big mouth and political friends on all sides gets so much tax subsidy, loans, breaks and deals?
I dunno, ask your friends at Exxon and Monsanto? I would think Musk seems to be some kind of small fry in comparison. Oh, now you've got me looking up his bio... http://www.biography.com/peopl...
Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?
Heh, do you also remember the story about the faulty seatbelts back in the 90s, and Toyota blamed messy American fast food culture for spilling food in the clasp mechanisms and jamming up the works? Silly media. Anyway, I bet those companies also get some nice tax breaks. Maybe some of those tax breaks are expiring, because Ford/Mazda has been moving some of their assembly plants from Michigan to Mexico. BTW, if you're interested in that kind of news, http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c... tends to have pretty good coverage and typically includes a healthy helping of humor, wit, and sarcasm.
Not sure why people need a super-hero.
Er, are you suggesting that Musk should have gotten into boring venture capital financial firms after making his fortune? It seems to take a special kind of nerd to throw your finances at the relatively high-risk and low-margin pursuits of electric cars and space launch vehicles. Most other nerds I know do that kind of thing as a hobby.
3.8 million priuses have been sold and cab drivers will tell you they easily go into the 300K range and even if the battery runs out the car is still useable.
I like the Prius (at least the Gen2 Prius)... it's a very diff
Tesla isn't green. They're making a Lithium battery factory which will plague the planet for millions of years. Did someone learn how to recycle lithium in the past two years instead of putting it barrels that will eventually leak and leave an unmanageable mess for millions of years?
Sure, they probably won't be completely off grid. But seeing as how they are a battery factory just as a matter of quality control testing they may keep several megawatt hours worth of batteries grid attached for charge/discharge testing. A perfect application for renewable load utilization.
Not "someday". 2016.
http://www.nydailynews.com/aut...
Dude, you know it's possible to store electricity? Tesla, not being a dinosauric utility company, just might be forward thinking enough to actually do this so they can release their spare electricity onto the grid at night.
I would hope Tesla stuffs every battery they produce into a "test lab" where they are charged during the sunny day and discharged during the evening.... by selling the excess power to the grid when its most needed (and most expensive I should imagine).
it helps Tesla figure out which batteries are good, and acts as exactly what renewable energy needs most - storage capabilities for the evening.
I get a little tired of the Musk worship.
That's reasonable. Geeks are often excited about new innovative technologies, especially when they are disruptive to existing systems. People, not just geeks, are also susceptible to appealing narratives, which Musk has managed to develop.
Why does his company need a huge pile of tax breaks to succeed?
Companies who provide jobs are incentivized by tax breaks. It may or may not be a horrible, corrupt system, but is a very well-established one. This is not a Tesla issue, it's a capitalism/politics issue. As an aside, taking advantage of tax breaks is so expected that if a company doesn't find ways to use them, they could conceivably be liable for failing their fiduciary duty to shareholders. It's simply poor business practice to not seek tax incentives. As an aside, there was some chatter about loosening environmental strictures, but I believe those were rejected by Tesla as poor return on mission.
If I open a company tomorrow, how can I get away with not paying taxes?
Employ a bunch of people with a company that states and municipalities want to bring in.
Why are Tesla's debt bonds in Junk status but he continues to get freebies from states?
Because a young, narrowly focused, small company is pretty risky. The entire house of cards could fall apart if another company comes out with a battery that outcompetes anything they can make. That said, lots of auto-makers have "junk bond status": "Even though the traditional U.S. automakers have now been profitable for the last four years, GM and Fiat Chrysler both still have junk bond status on their debt from S&P. Ford was only upgraded to the lowest investment grade rating last August." ~From the CNN article on S&P's Tesla bond rating.
Why are Tesla's cars so rudely expensive?
They are luxury vehicles. Those are very expensive. Why did the company choose to start with luxury vehicles? To gain capital when they still have low production capacity, to establish a luxury brand name, and to offset the cost of fairly new production methods and expensive components.
Is there a plan for a 4 door sedan that a real family can afford in the 20K - 30K range like the Prius?
The third generation vehicle is predicted to have a starting price around 35K. It is likely that later models will follow the trend of lower prices, but a cheap 4-door sedan will be dependent on both the success of the model 3 and the success of gigafactory production as well as improvements in battery tech. Is there a plan? Probably. Is it something I'd expect in the near future? Nope. My bet would be a decade, if Tesla is still around making cars then.
Why is it that a guy with a big mouth and political friends on all sides gets so much tax subsidy, loans, breaks and deals?
Money. Corporations make it. Employees get it, and employed people are very happy to have it, which makes politicians happy to facilitate it. Then election campaigns get money from corporations and pols get votes from constituents. Also, the narrative of renewable energy, American products, and energy independence sells exceedingly well to people on all sides of the political spectrum.
Why are guys who run factories employing tons of US citizens in US based factories (like Toyota) who produce super reliable product with great mileage get slapped by the media when a bogus story about a gas pedal getting stuck?
I don't know. It could be that the 24 hour news cycle thrives on sensationalizing things like killer floor mats and batteries that catch fire when pierced at the right angle, and media have no interest in presenting informative, risk/benefit analyzed news. But maybe not. It's probably Musk's fault.
Not sure why people need a sup
Wind is going for 2.5 cents per kWh http://www.greentechmedia.com/... and solar is going for 5 cents a kWh http://www.greentechmedia.com/... Why would you pay more?
To get the power when you need it, not when and if it happens to be available.
Re-newable sites are often paired with non-renewables for that reason. One of the big political proponents of solar in Germany is the coal industry. New coal plants are being built to backup the renewable plants. Similar story hear. If there is not sufficient excess power on the grid to serve Tesla then you will probably see some new natural gas based plants be built to make sure such excess is available.
The Prius isn't even that good at using gasoline. I used one as a company car quite a bit in my last job, it averaged 50mpg-ish. I can get that in my non-hybrid Honda Jazz, which also has better visibility and cleverer use of space. And a modern common rail diesel can do considerably better, albeit with horrendous repair costs if / when the injectors fail. (But what does a spare Prius main battery go for these days?...)
This plant will be grid-connected. It will simply produce as much energy as it uses. Not all the time, not 24 hours.
And the current local grid probably does not have enough excess to supply Tesla. So expect some new natural gas plants to go up.
Just like in Germany where coal based plants are going up to backup solar and wind.
Both the UAE and Saudi Arabia have a number of solar units that produce their current electricity supply from solar.
That said, the zero tax exemption Musk got for the plant makes this more viable.
Which is shorthand for saying everyone in that state will be subsidizing this.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Cab drivers are apparently liars, unless they are referring solely to the plug-in Prius model. I have a 2007 Prius and when the hybrid battery died at 178,000 miles the car would still drive, but it was jerky and too slow to legally drive on the interstate. I ran out of gas once and the car stopped running, too. You need gas AND the hybrid battery in working order for the car to drive. I bought a new hybrid battery that cost over $3000, and hopefully it will get me 200,000 more miles before I need another replacement hybrid battery.
From the article:
"Reno gets an average of five peak sun hours per day."
Remember, as soon as you say the word "average" you are counting on a huge amount of storage so that you get the average amount of energy every day, even if that day is below average. And even if every day for the last two weeks has been below average.
In in fact, if you are using solar, you have to understand that nearly every day between the autumn equinox and the spring equinox is below average. That means you need enough storage to store up electricity all summer so you can use it in the winter! This is not at all realistic. More realistic is to make sure you produce more than you need in the summer and enough in the winter.
This does use more than solar though. However, I can't believe this guy counted the windmills in a PR picture.
Anyway, buying and erecting a 3MW windmill costs about $10M. That would mean Tesla would spend $850M on windmills. You cannot seriously think that Tesla is going to spend $850M on windmills before the plant even opens.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf shows most solar cells on sand. much more than on the building ...
lol maybe in other states. in so cal houses are insane again. nice areas have seen houses like 600-800,000. fucking hell.
> Is it getting major tax breaks?
Yes. It's getting huge tax breaks here. It got a nearly free auto plant from California.
It gets $7500/car in subsidy from the feds. Many states give $1500 to $5000 on top of that. Some countries they sell into give tens of thousands equivalent.
And this is beyond the emissions trading money it gets, which is a subsidy, but not directly from governments, just enforced by the government.
>becasue they are high end luxury vehicles. Do you send letter to Mercedes telling them their care a rudely expensive?
If they charged $90K for a car which is luxury equivalent to a Hyundai Sonata I would. It's a nice car, but it doesn't measure up to other $90K cars on luxury.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Not really. The gas pedal thing was actually the Ghost Driver package. The problem is they are all suicidal.
http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/...
Life is not for the lazy.
The Prius isn't even that good at using gasoline. I used one as a company car quite a bit in my last job, it averaged 50mpg-ish. I can get that in my non-hybrid Honda Jazz, which also has better visibility and cleverer use of space. And a modern common rail diesel can do considerably better, albeit with horrendous repair costs if / when the injectors fail. (But what does a spare Prius main battery go for these days?...)
If your driving was purely urban, your Prius would beat your Jazz (called the Fit in North America, BTW) handily. Yes, the Fit/Jazz is extremely space efficient, but it is still quite a bit smaller than a Prius. There are certain uses in which a hybrid beats everything. Diesel is the same way - long distance motorway speed, optionally with a heavy load to carry. But getting a diesel to meet anything more than basic emissions requirements has made them very complicated and expensive, with high maintenance and repair bills on top of that. Financially, they make less sense than they used to, especially now that the small turbocharged gasoline engines are available fairly cheaply.
As for electric cars, well, once Tesla's gigafactory is running at full capacity, Tesla will be able to build enough cars to grab an approximately 0.5% worldwide market share. It's a drop in the bucket. Now, slice that battery pack up into 10 or 15 pieces and install them into some plug-in hybrid cars with small turbo gasoline engines, and you have all the makings of a company that can compete with BMW and Mercedes Benz.
That was part of the problem with the Prius, you can't shift to neutral or shut off the car unless the computer lets you!
The energy may be renewable, but not the resources.
I thought it was crystal clear by now that the "unintended" acceleration was not an uncommanded acceleration.
Yes, the software was a mess - but the "problem" magically disappeared overnight when the news stopped... After it magically began overnight after the unlucky family crashed because their loaner Lexus had the wrong floor mats installed, leading to a jammed accelerator pedal.
His right? What about his left? Did you think of that?
The man is changing the world.
Nissan is changing the world. Elon is just making a dog and pony show of it.
The entire reason Tesla decided not to make their new factory in California is that they demanded we waive our environmental laws to give them an exclusion, and we refused to do that.
Elon Musk may be putting on a show of being environmentally friendly, but when it comes down to it he deliberately picked the location with the weakest environmental protection.
All setting a corporate tax rate like that would do is create a massive tax dodge, while penalizing the workers.
I, for one, don't want to be ass-raped for 75% of my paycheck just so we can keep the government going.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Actually, he's just the dude who got all the money from the PayPal in it's early years, who has new hustles going now.
A true geek hero because PayPal.
Why not? It worked for Mad Max.
For starters, OP meant Nevada, not Arizona. And it's better to have some manufacturing base than none. NV is currently dependent on tourism, which is even more fickle. I'm sure that NV is hoping that the gigafactory spawns even more EV mfg investment in the state.
--
$tar -xvf
Sorry you got downmoddled for telling the truth. They can;t hear you. The leftists have gradually displaced Obama with his crony Musk. A million of these losers keep Tesla's stock price elevated. They will all come to a bad end.
Absolute rubbish. You know how you power off a frozen computer? Same thing with push-button-on cars. Push and hold.
Corporate income taxes appear to be less than 10% of Federal tax revenue, compared to around 80% for individual income taxes and payroll taxes. I believe you could eliminate corporate taxes and keep it deficit neutral with a relatively modest increase in higher bracket income taxes on those making over a million dollars per year. Or you could just not worry about the deficit (because the Federal Reserve will fund deficits with new money creation) and do it anyway.
I think some math is certainly in order to come up with some numbers, but personally I would say you could use a good bending over if you are making millions of dollars a year and paying just 20% or even 30% while the rest of society is becoming an inequitable mess. I'm all for lower middle class taxes also, regardless of the effect on the deficit.
Dear sir.
By my knowledge this is drive by wire design. If the computer is not sending the message thru can bus, you can fiddle as much as you want with your selector or break pedal. No shift to neutral. I did drive manual. I know what are you trying to say.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18485-toyota-car-recall-sparks-drive-by-wire-concerns.html
So I check my bullshit.
We have seen record high levels of efficiency already, high taxes or low.
And we have plummetting salaries and layoffs to offshore companies because the workers offshore can live without 24-hour electricity and so forth.
So you expect me to believe that lower taxes are going to magically turn corporations into high-paying domestic employers when lower domestic per-employee costs didn't?
Not that I agree with you, but I recently saw a Tesla with a license plate of: "WWEMD"
"becasue they are high end luxury vehicles."
LOLZZZZ!!!! You guys are just too much with all that "They're a luxury vehicle!" talk. These things have about as much luxury as a 30k Ford Fusion. Yes, I can most certainly say that with a straight face. Get out of here with all that "Lucksery Vee-Hickle!!!" talk.
The only thing luxury about the is their price.
> Is it getting major tax breaks?
Yes. It's getting huge tax breaks here. It got a nearly free auto plant from California.
I don't know about that. I know that their half-billion-dollar upgrade to increase production got a $24-million tax break from CA (who expects to bring in $50million or so in new taxes from it)
It gets $7500/car in subsidy from the feds. Many states give $1500 to $5000 on top of that. Some countries they sell into give tens of thousands equivalent.
And this is beyond the emissions trading money it gets, which is a subsidy, but not directly from governments, just enforced by the government.
I believe your number are exaggerated, but the point is true. The governments to offer subsidies for hybrids and electrics up to a point. This is true for all companies producing them; not just Tesla.
>becasue they are high end luxury vehicles. Do you send letter to Mercedes telling them their care a rudely expensive?
If they charged $90K for a car which is luxury equivalent to a Hyundai Sonata I would. It's a nice car, but it doesn't measure up to other $90K cars on luxury.
$90k? So we are discussing the Model S 85kw performance model? (as you've pointed out: there's up to $10k in rebates available; but I'll call it $90k).
It's direct competitors include one of my loves: the BMW 550i (this is a car with the same 0-60 time as the Tesla).
Now the BMW does start at $64k. That's a $25k advantage to be sure... well: unless you want any options. There are individual packages for the 5-series taht are in excess of $6k. Indeed: when I spec'd out my 528i (base $47k), it was $78k by the time I was done.
So really: you've got maybe a $5k advantage on the BMW (which you don't have because of those rebates you mentioned).
You get similar performance... well, not really. The Tesla has a better torque curve, so its 60-120 speed is better.
You get similar space... well, no, the Tesla has quite a bit more sotrage space and two additional seats. To come close you would need to move to a 7-series and that's going to make the Tesla much cheaper.
You get similar handling... well, not exactly. Though both are 50/50 weighted, the Tesla has a much lower center of gravity.
I won't even pretend the economy is similar: the Tesla will cost you far less to operate.
It's also got a far longer warranty (8 years).
It is cheaper to maintain.
It has fewer parts.
It is the safest car on the road.
Actually: There's an excellent chance my next car will be a Tesla S (unless they do really well with the $30k car); replacing my existing 535.
Thanks for writing this. Someone had to say it. Not all politicians head to bribe city. I would even say that most have good intensions until they get tempted by bribes and other incentives. Becoming a politician isn't the easiest road and it's definitively not the quickest path to financial success.
Nissan is doing it today and has been for 4 years. Sure, they don't have the range but the range excuse is just that for 90% of the entire market.
Tell me why you think a car with 3 times the range should cost more than twice as much when Nissan says they can sell the battery for less than 6k? Tesla's batteries are a bit more advanced but not that much. Just go out and look at the weight of the battery compared to the range and you'll see all Tesla is doing is cramming in more battery.
Look, what you really need to do is pretty simple.
Set the tax rate for everyone (corporations, churches, charities, and people) to a flat X%. No deductions, for ANY reason. Tax all income at that %.
Then, make the first Y income tax free, to help those who make less.
This would partially destroy the special interests (who often are trying to get tax loop holes put into the system so they pay less tax) and would ensure that EVERYONE pays a fair share.
On the political side of things, campaign reform is relatively simple. Allow anyone to run, but fix their spending limit to Z, and have that money PAID to them by the government. You would NOT be allowed to use personal funds, and only your allowance would be allowed to be used for you. Other parties would also NOT be allowed to campaign for candidates (no fucking Super PACs) and donations to your campaign fund would be made illegal.
Toyota's problem was that some its cars were driven by elderly people and inexperienced drivers who couldn't tell the difference between the gas and the brake. That is not the politically correct answer, but it is the truth. America was going through a jingoism induced moral panic at the time. 2/3rds of their domestic automakers have gone bankrupt. Their economy had collapsed. The number one automaker in the country was Toyota. Going on witch hunts during times of crisis is what Americans do best, and Toyota was a victim of their mass hysteria.
This problem did not occur in other countries. This problem effected elderly and inexperienced drivers much greater than statistical chance.
I think it is wonderful that they will try this out, but don't want my tax dollar to finance 40% (or whatever) of their power costs. Embed the cost in the finances of the company and the product cost, please. Then I'll be cheering you on for success.
And so what if they use YOUR tax money. You pay tax because you earn. Lucky you. Also given it means there will be less pollution YOUR tax dollars are paying for something from which you will benefit.
Media are jumping all over Tesla already.
It's happened with the Tesla car fires, which are still less common per mile driven than gasoline car fires. New York Times published a likely faked review where Tesla's data logging disagrees with the reporters account, and shows that the reporter only charged the battery to a small fraction of the capacity and ignored the low battery warnings while driving past charging stations. Top Gear also faked battery trouble on their show (it was apparently in the script before they even received the car from Tesla).
One thing I don't get about the Prius is that every time I pass one that is parking (i.e. driving really slowly) the engine is running???
Also I know someone who has a hybrid Land Cruiser and hates it because it consumes a shit load of fuel.
I'm sticking with my BMW diesel for the moment. When it goes kaput, I"m getting myself a BMW i3 and am hoping by then,the autonomy will even be better. Also American engineering kinda sucks.
Please do keep your taxes like you are. Canada could use a few more Burger King-like acquisitions.
BMW for one. Germany has been very aggressive in pushing green energy.
And just as aggressively building coal plants to back up the green sources. Coal has been a huge benefactor of the green push in Germany. Now admittedly these are modern, efficient and cleaner burning coal plants than what typically comes to mind. However the point needs to be made that renewables are almost always backed up by fossil fuels.
Expect some new nat gas plant to go up near Tesla too.
Moving forward to a product that already has one marketplace failure under its belt? Oil cars slaughtered electric in the free market ~100 years ago, so this recent fuss about bringing back electric seems more about affordable oil pricing itself out of the market than anything new in the wheel'd battery department—but life in the Faust lane certainly has conditioned this culture to see only onwards and upwards, so uh I guess hooray for ACTUALLY DOING IT and all that jazz.
They'll test the batteries? Wonder if they'll ship them charged? Wonder if there might be lots of storage available if the answers are yes and no respectively.
No, they're not lying. As a cheapass that bought a recently decommed taxi, it had previously been driven with a hole in the intake manifold, a pair of clogged catalytic converters, a leaky exhaust manifold, and metal on metal brakes. Imagine now lovely that was to drive about. Well, the fact it could barely go above 40 explains why he finally broke down and sold it for peanuts.
Basically, if a cabbie tells you a car lasts to XXX,XXX miles, that's the point at which the engine finally seized up, and they're tired of swapping in junkyard trannies for the past two years. 300,000 is pretty shitty, actually--the venerable crown vic typically did 500,000 before it was completely and totally fucked.
The news didn't stop until a patch had been released.
The floor mat issue was a separate problem.
The Prius was uncommanded acceleration.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If they're generating electricity from "solar, wind, and geothermal" it will be heavily subsidized by state and federal governments, probably around 50%.
And those batteries cannot hold a charge for 6 months anyway.
Even if they could, you're talking about a deficit of about 1/3rd at the peak of winter and a corresponding surplus in the summer. So let's assume you have a 1/3rd total energy surplus for 2 months in the summer and have to hold it 6 months until winter where you use it up.
That'd be 2900MWh times 61 or 177GWh. that's 177M kWh. A Tesla pack holds 85kWh, let's assume it's about to become 100kWh. And the pack costs over $10K, we'll assume it costs $5K.
That would mean they need 1,770,000 packs, at $5K a piece or $89B worth of packs. It's also the entire output of the plant for 3.5 years.
Does this seem workable to you?
I think you're not getting a good grip on the actual size of the problem.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I don't buy your story. By my extensive study of the anecdocti, Senior Citizen Braking Syndrome is almost always terminated by the nearest farmers market. Look it up, it's on teh intarwebs.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Stop saying that. Dams are highly destructive of the environment. Entire fisheries wiped out. Valleys flooded. I just don't get it when bus loads of eco-protesters show up when someone wants to scrape 5 acres of desert for a factory, but flooding 10 of thousands of acres of virgin forest, destroying land and aquatic habitat upstream and downstream of the dam, and they say "Great! Green energy! Let me plug in my electric car!"
Please, please, next time you visit Yosemite, pay a visit to the Hetch Hetchy reservoir. Then tell me how green hydro is.
He gets tax breaks to entice bringing lots of jobs to THAT state instead of some OTHER state.
That's the problem there, can you spot it?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
http://www.waste-management-wo...
Answer: Yes but lithium only makes up 3 percent of the cost of a lithium ion battery so recycling is uneconomical vs virgin production. If demand ever exceeds supply then that will likely change and old batteries which were thrown out will likely be reclaimed. Currently as I gather it there is about 12 pounds or $250-$350 worth of metallic lithium in a 75kwh battery pack. So currently lithium prices are a minimal impact on pack pricing considering that's a $20000 pack.
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Red alert. Go to red alert. Fag alarm. This fucking vidiot sexless fat poor health bad physical condition racist fat ultra left wing nationalist asshole idiot is speaking
GO TO RED ALERT. Space and Time are grinding to a halt.
Fucking idiot SHITSTAIN McGuspaz is speaking.
Fat man living off of government or with parents with no sex jerking off to pedophile porn and trolling Slashdot is speaking. WOOP WOOP.
Captain, people cant take much more of this shit. I'm giving it all shez got.
WOOP WOOP
The alien Guspaz, with his corpulent fat face and fronds of flash drooping over belly into cheap assed keyboard try is coming. He farted on the left nacelle!
Should we fly up his ass to hide?
NO!!!!! That will massage his prostate, GUSPAZ likes anal pleasure, we must go to warp 69!
FAT SEXLESS GUSPAZ pursues the captain in a long brown skidmarking journey through space.
Fat fucking pig. Fat stupid. All Your Base Are Belong To Us was meant to be funny, its not the 11th commandment you dumb motherfucker.
FUCKING ASSHOLE ALARM.
On the upside, they don't seem to need all that much juice, which means they aren't selling so well and may be gone as soon as there is a change to a government that isn't so lavish with borrowing-and-spending. Still, hats off to Musk, he managed to build a new empire entirely on government subsidies.
and don't forget the legal brothels
http://www.theguardian.com/env...
From TFA:
Saudi Arabia has announced it is on track to start work on its first major solar farm early next year. ...
He added the project was on track to begin feeding electricity into the grid by 2015 and will mark the first step on the government's path towards delivering 41GW of solar capacity by 2032, through a combination of solar PV and solar thermal technologies.
And they are planing to be producing 120 GW by 2020 - of which only those 41GW will be solar. By 2032. 17GW will be nuclear.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/c...
UAE as of 2011 was producing 26.1 GW of electricity.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/c...
With plans for 28.8 megawatts (MW) wind farm and a concentrated solar power (CSP) plant with 100 MW capacity.
While building at least 4 nuclear reactors, first two 1.4 GW ones planned to come on-line in 2017.
Neither country cares much about renewable sources because 1) oil and gas and 2) they are investing in nuclear.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Modern damns are greener than the old ones, they include alternate paths and/or fish ladders and such to allow migrations.
And for an area with hundreds of thousands of acres of virgin forest the 10 thousand flooded acres is not terrible. If the damn is only flooding a small percentage of the habitat then the net gain is probably a win. Your argument is similar to a degree with that of the protesters wanting to preserve the 5 acres of desert, both a myopic perspective ignoring larger issues.
You need to look at the bigger picture. If not for those damns you decry how many forests would have been scraped away for coal mining, how much coal would have been burned, how much more pollution and acid rain in the air, how many acres of forest would have died from this additional pollution?
Things are far more complicated than you suggest.
Then stop imagining it. Because that's the only reason you're seeing any.
One thing for sure. It won't be powered by ethanol.
Testing multi-thousand dollar battery pack is a given. As is the factory's need of stored energy. The speculation that these two will go together is well worth making.
I know that everything "green" upsets you, and hurts your world view. But try not to be so grumpy.
Have to test out all those big batteries somehow!
no text.
Don't confuse PayPal as it is now (pack of thieves), long after Musk sold it, to how it began (revolutionary internet technology).
And who pays payroll taxes? A big chunk of it comes from corporations.
Peak daytime costs are much higher than the evening in most of the sunny parts of the USA.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
They wouldn't have to go through all the effort of setting up shell corporations in various countries and could bring money earned outside of the US back to the US to find projects, pay dividends to stock holders, etc.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Let's say I own a corporation. Said corporation has an income of $1,000,000. However, between research and development costs, manufacturing, and other overhead, my expenses are $900,000. If you tax my corporation's income at 25% (without being able to deduct any expenses) I'm $150,000 in the red after taxes, despite running a fairly successful business.
But Tesla does get zero emissions credits from California that it then sells to other auto manufacturers. It's be estimated that they earn $30-40 thousand per vehicle using that bit of cronyism.
In Nevada and California, electric power is needed most -- and is most expensive -- during hot daytime hours. This is true throughout most of the country, and won't change until there are metric library of congress tonnes of it throughout the grid. Someday, with oodles of PV, the peak will shift a few hours later in the day, to just after sundown (on hot weekdays).
Note: there are some parts of the country, notably the deep southeast, that are winter peaking. Winter peaks tend to be weekdays at around 6-7am.
Support a few technologists in Washington.
How many times will Tesla have bankrupt GM, for them to smell the coffee!
I would give Exxon a credit downgrade within 16 years! At Exxon and other companies in the oil and gas the reason Elon Musk is winning because it is only business.
signed,
conservative analysis
Modded -1: pessimist
Where does the lithium go when the rest of the battery is recycled?
Big blue barrels buried under the dirt where someone will live some day?
Hmmm... I saw the link afterwards... I would like to see a ruling that explicitly requires battery manufacturers to recycle their own batteries and most specifically the lithium. I don't care what it costs. It shouldn't be the duty of the tax payer to clean their mess and based on history, if you don't force it from the start, it'll never get taken care of when the problem is out of control.
They would just switch to hiding their executive's income instead. Set them up as individual private companies, pay them a nominal salary and the rest in more tax bonuses and perks.
The EU has a pretty good solution. Companies will pay tax where they do business. If 30% of their global income is done in France they pay French corporation tax on 30% of it. Doesn't matter if they move it all to Ireland or pretend that the French subsidiary lost money, they pay their taxes end of.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
All of Toyota's failures are attributable to driver error. The researchers were only able to create a dangerous fault using a debugger. They never managed to demonstrate it happening spontaneously.
Once the lawyers were involved that ceased to matter though.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Yes. It's getting huge tax breaks here. It got a nearly free auto plant from California.
It gets $7500/car in subsidy from the feds. Many states give $1500 to $5000 on top of that. Some countries they sell into give tens of thousands equivalent.
The feds don't give that $7500 subsidy because the brand of the car is 'Tesla'. They give it because it's an electric car. There's over a dozen models from BMW, Fiat, Ford, General Motors, Nissan and others that get the same subsidy. So spinning this subsidy as "the feds are helping Tesla" is a lie. Same thing for the state subsidies.
If they charged $90K for a car which is luxury equivalent to a Hyundai Sonata I would. It's a nice car, but it doesn't measure up to other $90K cars on luxury.
The Tesla Model S is a full-size luxury liftback which ranks second against other "Super Luxury" cars and has a 0-60 acceleration of 4.2 to 5.9 seconds (depending on model). The Hyundai Sonata is nowhere close to being in the same class seeing as it's a mid-size car and not as sporty with a 0-60 acceleration of 6.5 to 8.5 seconds. So again you're ill-informed or disingenuous.
Technically geothermal energy isnt renewable. It is possible to use it to the point where the earth cools down in said locations. This has been seen in areas around the world where georhermal energy is heavilly used
Can you quote us a source for lithium being difficult to recycle ?
I remember reading from Elon Musk that not only the tech to fully recycle the Li-Ion base components exist, but it's also cheaper to recycle than to get new raw materials.
It's one of the questions, wouldn't it be better to recycle Tesla Model S batteries that are too degraded to function as model S batteries or to use those for stationary energy storage. With an efficient enough giga factory it might be better to recycle soon, and use new batteries to stationary storage instead.
I pulled out my 1988 copy of The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary. The definitions of subsidize and subsidy only mention use of public money for a benefit. Paying less than a maximum tax is not listed. After searching over ten web sites I found one listing a tax break as a subsidy. Kind of like the school bully taking everyone's lunch money. One day he only takes half of yours. All the others now claim the bully is subsidizing you.
We have been brainwashed into thinking all money belongs to the government so anyone keeping any is being subsidized by everyone else.
The fault, if it exists, is very rare. Otherwise, we'd have all sorts of reports of runaway acceleration. This means that failing to demonstrate a case where it happens means nothing, and the fact that they could reach a dangerous state with a debugger is significant.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
And, fortunately for your prognostication, technology has not changed in the past century. Sheesh.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
really? your thesis relies on 100 years of stagnant technology and manufacturing. you lose big time. +cute points for thinking the initial failure was free market dynamics.
Do you know that Lithium is also easily recyclable? No?
Well, in this case I would recommend to use Google, because, you know... you aren't the only one that can use a keyboard and has a computer, you may be the only one in your redneck teabagging club, but don take it for granted outside of your town in the Rocky's
My greetings to your sister and to Bigfoot!
-- 29A the number of the Beast
It is not chemically dangerous but in powder form it is... (I bet you will love this): Explosive!!!
So, now I need to find a way to get the Li from the batteries and create my very own Mythbusters lab in the backyard!!! Whoooooooooooooo!
-- 29A the number of the Beast