Windows Tax Shot Down In Italy

An anonymous reader writes Italy's High Court has struck a blow to the practice of forcing non-free software on buyers of PCs and laptops. According to La Repubblica, the court ruled on Thursday that a laptop buyer was entitled to receive a refund for the price of the Microsoft Windows license on his computer. The judges sharply criticised the practice of selling PCs only together with a non-free operating system as "a commercial policy of forced distribution". The court slammed this practice as "monopolistic in tendency." It also highlighted that the practice of bundling means that end users are forced into using additional non-free applications due to compatibility and interoperability issues, whether they wanted these programs or not. "This decision is both welcome and long overdue", said Karsten Gerloff, President of the Free Software Foundation Europe. "No vendor should be allowed to cram non-free software down the throats of users."

Comments

What about other devices?

[recoiledsnake]

Since computing is moving to tablets and phones, can we get OS refunds for iDevices and Android tablets and phones also ?

Also, is this applicable to Macs?

Re:What about other devices?

[andjeng]

I think we can. But I'm not really sure, though. Because, as far as I know, this kind of bussiness really depends on the Country's laws.

Re:What about other devices?

[JaredOfEuropa]

It only applies if the OS and device are really two separate entities. For Macs you could argue that you should be able to buy the device without the OS. For phones, it seems that the OS is part of the device, especially in case of iPhones (what else are you going to run on them). Keep in mind that iOS isn't sold separately either, nor are there any charges for upgrades.

Re:What about other devices?

[Mistakill]

Pretty sure Android is free from Google

Re:What about other devices?

[EmagGeek]

Android is not free. Googls pays Microsoft a small fortune in patent licensing to be able to sell Android.

Re:What about other devices?

[wisnoskij]

As far as I can tell Android appears to be FOSS. You might need a version without Googles logos for it to be legal to use without paying them though? I am not sure if they charge for licencing? I am sure someone on /. can enlighten us though.

Re:What about other devices?

[tomhath]

I don't see how any of that matters. If you could buy the hardware without the software we might have an alternative OS; as it is the software is crammed down your throat.

Re:What about other devices?

[wisnoskij]

But do they make their money back though ads and forcing users to use Google Search and Google email, etc.. Or do they make money licencing their OS?

Re: What about other devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

In many countries (Italy included), "bundling" is considered an illegal, monopolistic practice regardless of market share. That said, I'd imagine Apple would claim that OSX and iOS are "free". It's a somewhat dubious claim, but it's definitely a very different situation since Apple is also the hardware manufacturer. If I buy a Lenovo laptop, Lenovo had to pay Microsoft a licensing cost for Windows, and there's no question that tangible, fixed licensing cost is passed on to the consumer. For a Mac, it's not like the Apple hardware division had to pay the OSX division for a license, so even though the cost of that development is passed on to the consumer, it would be difficult if not impossible to assign a dollar cost.

Re:What about other devices?

[I-am-a-Banana]

The big difference here is Android, iOS and MacOS are free, not Windows.

FREE! MAC OS! SQUEEE! Please tell me where I can get my free MAC OS!

Re:What about other devices?

[BarbaraHudson]

But do they make their money back though ads and forcing users to use Google Search and Google email, etc.

You're not forced to use Google search and email on an android phone. You can use any web-based search engine, and there are other email apps out there.

Re:What about other devices?

[kthreadd]

It only applies if the OS and device are really two separate entities. For Macs you could argue that you should be able to buy the device without the OS. For phones, it seems that the OS is part of the device, especially in case of iPhones (what else are you going to run on them). Keep in mind that iOS isn't sold separately either, nor are there any charges for upgrades.

That's because the iPhone (which really should be called a computer) is locked down in the firmware by the manufacturer to only run operating systems provided by them. If they would disable this blocking then alternative operating systems could run on the iPhone. It has in the past when good hackers were able to work around Apples attempt to dominate the user, but that has not been successful recently.

Re:What about other devices?

[kthreadd]

The Mac App Store.

Re:What about other devices?

[recoiledsnake]

The OEMs are forced to set the default search as Google though, if they want access to the app store. This hurts alternative search engines.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story...

Re:What about other devices?

[I-am-a-Banana]

On my PC I can hit the App store and get it free?!?

Re:What about other devices?

[mystikkman]

To get around this, MS can sell a hardware dongle that costs $$$ that happens to come with free Windows, and Windows only runs if that hardware dongle is present. That way they can do the same thing that Apple does.

Re:What about other devices?

[jader3rd]

But do they make their money back though ads and forcing users to use Google Search and Google email, etc.. Or do they make money licencing their OS?

They actually pay vendors to put Android on devices, because of the increased revenue they get from active Android users.

Re:What about other devices?

[recoiledsnake]

If it's really free, can I download and install it legally on my assembled PC?

Re:What about other devices?

[jones_supa]

Or simply require the product key to be purchased separately and ship an unactivated copy of Windows on the computer.

Re:What about other devices?

[Plunky]

As far as I can tell Android appears to be FOSS. You might need a version without Googles logos for it to be legal to use without paying them though?

here you go: Cyanogenmod Downloads

Re:What about other devices?

[macs4all]

Since computing is moving to tablets and phones, can we get OS refunds for iDevices and Android tablets and phones also ?

Also, is this applicable to Macs?

I wondered the same thing. But now that the most recent two versions (Mavericks and Yosemite) of OS X are free (and iOS has been free for quite a while), I don't think that the Italian gummint could force Apple to assign a "price" to that which they are distributing for free.

Re:What about other devices?

[Luckyo]

You cannot for a very simple reason. OS is free on those devices, and is an integral part of the purchase.

This is not the case on PCs, which are designed to have a variety of OSs installed on them and can be shipped without any operating system if needed.

OS on a phone is more like BIOS on PC as far as this ruling is concerned. Integral basic software required to run the hardware.

Re:What about other devices?

[Luckyo]

Not any more than you could download an android to windows phone and expect it to work.

Macs, while built of largely same parts, just like android and windows phones, have specific hardware implementation that make their respective operating systems not directly cross-compatible.

Re:What about other devices?

[BarbaraHudson]

The great thing about android phones is that, unlike iPhones, you don't have to go through the "official app store". No Google Play account needed.

As for hurting alternative search engines ... just bookmark the one you prefer to use. Same with web maps. Same with email, calendaring, etc. And if that's not enough, the dev tools are free, no annual license, so if you can't find what you want, what's stopping you from making your own apps, including apps that use alternative search engines? Or having those search engines create their own apps? Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, and a whole bunch of other search engine apps are available for free directly from Google Play.

Re:What about other devices?

[macs4all]

It only applies if the OS and device are really two separate entities. For Macs you could argue that you should be able to buy the device without the OS. For phones, it seems that the OS is part of the device, especially in case of iPhones (what else are you going to run on them). Keep in mind that iOS isn't sold separately either, nor are there any charges for upgrades.

That's because the iPhone (which really should be called a computer) is locked down in the firmware by the manufacturer to only run operating systems provided by them. If they would disable this blocking then alternative operating systems could run on the iPhone. It has in the past when good hackers were able to work around Apples attempt to dominate the user, but that has not been successful recently.

I argue that the iPhone and iPad really should not be called a "computer" (unless you also want to call your microwave oven, TV set, A/V receiver, DSLR, DVD/BD Player, VCR, etc. a "computer"), because there are simply absolutely no practical alternatives for the Firmware "OS" that completes the "product" design.

Even a "jailbroken" iPhone is still running iOS; otherwise it would be useless as a phone. All that the "jailbreaks" do is provide a method whereby "unsigned" software packages can be "side-loaded" into the iPhone. However, that unsigned software must still be developed in XCode to run under iOS.

I the case of the Mac, you may have had a (weak) argument; but now that Apple distributes OS X for free, I'm pretty sure that the Italians won't be interested in going after Apple.

Re: What about other devices?

[Geeky]

The question is where you draw the line. My smart TV clearly has an OS, but I'm not sure there's a clamour for the likes of Panasonic or Samsung to stop "bundling" the OS with the TV. The TV is capable of being a general purpose computer but most people wouldn't see it like that. People want to buy a TV that just works, they don't want to buy a TV and then figure out what OS to install on it to get it to work. Same with phones, for most people.

So why should computers be different? Bundling helps the average consumer more than it hurts - you buy a PC, you get Windows, you buy a Mac you get OSX, all ready to use straight out of the box.

Re:What about other devices?

[macs4all]

If it's really free, can I download and install it legally on my assembled PC?

Do we REALLY have to have this discussion each-and-every-time?

Re:What about other devices?

[Geeky]

Yeah, except it is possible to get OSX running on a PC, or in a VM. Apple just don't allow it. It's a shame, because I'd love a mini tower with at least three drive bays, built in CD burner and card reader and only one mid-range graphics card - a nice neat device with no need for a nest of cables and external devices. But I also want OSX. Turns out I can't have both because Apple's idea of a high end workstation is basically an iMac without a screen in terms of how well it fits my needs.

It's a shame, because the best of both worlds would be OSX with the flexibility of building your own hardware.

Re:What about other devices?

[Barsteward]

Google pays nothing, Samsung etc pay

Re:What about other devices?

[brainnolo]

In your majestic plan you forgot to mention how the hell is Microsoft going to force everyone to buy Surface laptops and PCs... they would have done that already if they could.

Re:What about other devices?

[sudon't]

The difference in the case of Macs is that you're not being charged extra for the OS, and of course, both items are made by the same company. Perhaps they figure that cost in, but it is much different than buying a Dell computer preloaded with Microsoft Windows, and being asked to pay extra for Windows. TFA also mentions having to buy non-free, compatible software. This is also not an issue with Mac OS.

Re:What about other devices?

[wisnoskij]

So if the law allowed users to get a refund, they would have to pay Google money not to use Android, I guess.

Re: What about other devices?

[Bert64]

The difference is its a bundle of individual products rather than a single integrated product... The OS available for your TV is not made available separately, and its unlikely your TV is capable of running anything else.
Also the OS on a tv is generally made by the tv manufacturer rather than a third party, and buying a tv from a different manufacturer will get you a different os.

Re: What about other devices?

[Bert64]

They want to be able to buy hardware either without an os, or with a choice of os on it... Having that choice dictated to you is what people don't like, as they end up paying even if they want to use a different os.

Re:What about other devices?

[pr0fessor]

Or you could buy an ubuntu laptop from dell but your not going to find it in best buy and they don't have a very good selection because most people don't want a linux os or no os laptop they just want it to work.... doesn't mean it's not possible.

http://www.dell.com/us/busines...

Re:What about other devices?

[gnasher719]

Since computing is moving to tablets and phones, can we get OS refunds for iDevices and Android tablets and phones also ?

The difference with Mac and iDevices is that the hardware is made by the same company that creates the software. You will have no problem whatsoever buying a computer without MacOS X or a phone or tablet without iOS. For Android tablets or phones I'm not sure how much money goes to Google,

Re:What about other devices?

[Tough Love]

Since computing is moving to tablets and phones, can we get OS refunds for iDevices and Android tablets and phones also ?

Also, is this applicable to Macs?

Of course you can. Apple and Google sell their respective operating systems for... wait for it... zero dollars and zero cents per copy. You are entitled to a full refund.

Re:What about other devices?

[JohnMadsen]

Sorry grandma, you need to purchase and install windows separately. No, the same model laptop with windows pre-installed is out f stock - it always is. No, I don't have time but the store geek cage will install it for $70/hr. Yes, I know it costs as much as windows to install it. Just shut up, take your pills, and fork over the money. Yes, yes, I know you are getting ass raped. OK, just order you one with Windows pre-installed. [Hangs up. Thinking to self - if that bitch calls again, I and sending her to voice mail.] If they did do this, each model from each manufacturer will sell a version with Windows installed and without Windows installed. The majority, the average fart sucking person does not want to install windows or linux, does not know how, and will not ever want to waste their time learning now to. Because average people do not do that kinda of thing. Now the geek will be happy (maybe 5% of sales will be OS-less models sold) and probably just pirates windows anyway. Offering different models will just add additional cost to the OS-less version, which will make it 20 bucks cheaper which negates the trouble of doing this whole exercise. Also, the OS-less version would probably be a special order because very few people will purchase one. Just think how many less people (80%) would have even bothered to buy a PC is this policy was in place. Think of the 90s wen you really have to be above average to a blank computer and get it working. For the children out there, you have no reference and probably cant even understand this concept. Now, is this really a good idea?

Re:What about other devices?

[tomhath]

Microsoft could have used that defense too - Don't like Windows? Buy a Mac. It goes both ways.

Re:What about other devices?

[nospam007]

"So all this does is punish the software developers that don't lock their software into hardware they sell. So if Microsoft stops selling Windows and force everyone to buy Surface laptops ..."

Both of them?

Re: What about other devices?

[Geeky]

Which is the argument for why this doesn't apply to Apple hardware (computers and phones) and to an arguably lesser extent Android (in that case there is a separation - the phone is made by Samsung, HTC etc, the OS by Google, so the argument that they're integrated is weaker).

My point is that the average consumer doesn't care. They want a Windows machine, and probably don't really care if it's HP, Acer or whoever - it's Windows they want.

So while there's a legal argument around bundling, it's not really a consumer protection issue. The number of buyers who would actually want to install an alternative OS (or be able to) is tiny.

Re: What about other devices?

[Geeky]

What people? A handful of geeks who've heard of Linux?

Re:What about other devices?

[oh_my_080980980]

Except you are not buying the computer Microsoft. You are buying the computer from Dell, HP, etc.,

Re:What about other devices?

[Archtech]

Oh by the way, Grandma... you can buy this PC with Linux pre-installed for less than the other one without Windows. That's because Linux needs less powerful hardware to run properly. Oh, and you'll find it just as easy (if that's the word) to use as Windows.

Freedom! Isn't it good?

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Oh, how nice that sounds... Shame it doesn't work that way...

Grandma wants to use Office, or Quicken, or her favorite photo editing program.

Oh wait, none of them run on Linux.

Oh darn...

And no, she doesn't want to have to change programs just because the OS changes.

Re:What about other devices?

[jones_supa]

That's because Linux needs less powerful hardware to run properly.

In most cases that is not true anymore. A lot of the full-fledged Linux desktop environments are quite laggy on low-end (for example Atom) hardware, while a full Windows 7/8 desktop runs smooth like butter on them.

Re:What about other devices?

[Yakasha]

I don't see how any of that matters. If you could buy the hardware without the software we might have an alternative OS; as it is the software is crammed down your throat.

Devices with an embedded OS are in a wildly different market than 3rd party OS for some random hardware.
Windows on PCs is a minimum of 2 parties: the OS developer and the hardware manufacturer. The only link between those two is on the business side. They're choosing to force you to buy them together. That collusion reeks of a monopoly.

Even a Macintosh desktop/laptop, though not an embedded OS, is a 1 party issue. Apple is selling their hardware with their operating system that runs it. Like an xbox, or a smart TV.

A better argument I think against the ruling would be to say that nobody is forced to buy a Dell. You can just as easily buy parts, without the OS, and have your computer. Personally, I see the deals with Microsoft as just a VAR under a slightly different contract. I don't think PCs are so complicated yet that the average person needs a hand-holding to avoid buying windows. They don't even need to build the computer themselves to avoid that cost, just go to the corner computer shop and say "build me a computer without windows." I have a feeling that 95-99% of the people that don't want Windows pre-installed aren't buying computers from places that pre-install windows.

Are there any numbers out there on that? For the people that buy a computer with windows pre-installed:
1. How many keep windows
2. How many ditch it for an alternative.

Re:What about other devices?

[kthreadd]

Take the Nexus 5. I know people who dual boot Android and Sailfish on it, two very different operating systems. There are no technical reasons whatsoever that you couldn't do the same with an iPhone.

Re:What about other devices?

[kthreadd]

No but you can borrow someone else's Mac and get it there.

Re:What about other devices?

[I-am-a-Banana]

And I know first hand that without owning a Mac you cannot run a copy of the OS without legal issues. So in otherwords the cost of the OS is built into the price of the hardware and hence not free. :) Hence the same decision should apply to Macs too.

Re:What about other devices?

[aristotle-dude]

If it's really free, can I download and install it legally on my assembled PC?

Do you normally advocate violating license terms of a GPL product? Do you advocate lying to obtain an educational license of a product? Do you advocate lying to get an open source developer license of a development tool for free? The terms of the license are that you get OS X for free but you must use it on a mac. Why is it so hard for you to understand? They don't want to sell another version for OEMs to put on generic hardware and that it their choice as copyright holders how their software should be licensed.

Re:What about other devices?

[recoiledsnake]

Then people need stop claiming it's free like they're doing in this thread. You're paying for OS X when you pay for a Mac.

Really free(as in beer) software will allow you to run it wherever it can, like say, Linux.

Re:What about other devices?

[recoiledsnake]

Because people keep claiming OS X is free, when it really isn't.

Re:What about other devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except you are not buying the computer Microsoft. You are buying the computer from Dell, HP, etc.,

Yes, I do believe that's kind of the point - why do we have to (for most practical intents and purposes) get Windows bundled if MS supposedly isn't involved?

Re:What about other devices?

[Darinbob]

For Macs at least, I think the OS is essentially free now. There's no amount to the "refund". With the PC+Windows, Windows is being sold separately, and at a high price. Similarly, there is the OEM model that charges a discounted price for the OS but also charges it for *every* PC whether or not it actually has Windows on it.

For phones it may be similar, the OS is essentially free (for android) so what's the refund you get if you get the bare hardware?

Alos remember this is Microsoft. They are not just another company trying to compete and attempting various strategies to compete on a level playing field. The are a monopoly, plain and simple, and as such the laws are much harsher on them than other companies in order to allow the possibility of actual competition. It may seem unfair when viewing the situation if one is ignorant that one of the entities is a monopoly, which is why Microsoft goes to great lengths to try and portray itself as not being a monopoly.

Re:What about other devices?

[Damarkus13]

Except that, more and more, all grandma wants to do is check the newest baby pictures on Facebook, send emails and run a few web apps. All of which work fine Linux.

Re:What about other devices?

[Darinbob]

Right now they "force" everyone buying a PC to get Windows, and they're able to do this by unfair OEM licensing schemes and as their position as the monopoly player. No on else is able to horn in on the action because Microsoft is entrenched. That's the whole point of anti-monopoly laws.

Microsoft would *never* be able to force anyone to get Surface laptops because they in no way have a monopoly there, the general public would just go elsewhere. With Windows and PCs it is different because the vast majority of people have Windows, the general public is unfamiliar with alternatives, the only effective competition is high priced and still only a fraction of the market, and any PC they buy comes with what appears to be a free copy of Windows anyway (whether or not they asked for a copy of Windows).

Re:What about other devices?

[Dragonslicer]

I argue that the iPhone and iPad really should not be called a "computer" (unless you also want to call your microwave oven, TV set, A/V receiver, DSLR, DVD/BD Player, VCR, etc. a "computer")

Some of those are computers. Most new televisions and Blu-Ray players run Linux.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Then she doesn't need a PC, she needs an iPad or a Surface RT.

Frankly, when my wife wants to play around with facebook and do family contacts, she uses one of our iPads. Between Skype being super easy to use with it (and double that since we have kids), and Facebook having a nice interface for it... why use a PC?

What does she use her PC for? MS Office more than anything else. And no, she isn't going to switch to OpenOffice, even for free.

I use Quickbooks for my business, there isn't a Linux version. I'm not going to change my accounting software to avoid a $50 Windows "tax" once every 3-5 years...

Neither are most people.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Sure, but that is a $1,300 notebook, not counting upgrades and tax...

What is the OS? $50?

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Yes, I do believe that's kind of the point - why do we have to (for most practical intents and purposes) get Windows bundled if MS supposedly isn't involved?

Because "most people" want their computer from Dell and HP to come with Windows.

YOU might not, but you're not "most people".

BTW, you CAN buy a Dell without Windows, you just have to order it that way, their business division sells them.

Dell has tried selling consumer PCs with Linux, it was a headache and they pulled them after commenting that the support issues were too much trouble and caused them to not save anything over the Windows version.

Re:What about other devices?

[Damarkus13]

You're absolutely right that must people don't actually need a PC anymore.

Why use OpenOffice when Google docs does everything the average person uses an office suite for.

The web version of QuickBooks works just fine under Linux. And most people don't use accounting software unless they own a business anyhow.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

I argue that the iPhone and iPad really should not be called a "computer" (unless you also want to call your microwave oven, TV set, A/V receiver, DSLR, DVD/BD Player, VCR, etc. a "computer"), because there are simply absolutely no practical alternatives for the Firmware "OS" that completes the "product" design.

Oh, so almost everything in the world BUT a PC is not a computer?

I don't know about you, but everything from mainframes from the 70's to my PS3 all sure look and act like computers to me.

For that matter, my Atari 2600 sure looks like a computer to me...

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

You would be correct that these days, most people in fact don't need a PC, at least not one like a Mac or Windows.

I would suggest that the iPad or Surface (RT flavor) are now "good enough" for what a lot of people use their PC for.

The web version of Quickbooks might work ok, but frankly anyone running their business accounting from a web app needs their head examined. That is the last thing I'd want online. And yes, I do own a business.

As for Google Docs, yea, it does enough for casual use. When you're in business however and need to trade and exchange documents, spreadsheets, and powerpoints to other people, only MS Office will do the job. Being "mostly compatible" is not acceptable.

Also, there are a lot of people (my wife included) who know how to use MS Office and don't care to change. As it is, we recently switched from MS Office 2010 that we owned to Office 365 that we pay about $70 a year for.

Why? Did we need 2013? Nope, not at all... but the 1 TB of OneDrive storage per user was cheaper than all the other options, so from that point of view (we were paying for Dropbox before), Office 365 is "free".

I bought several copies of Windows 7 back when it launched, retail copies... So I am not saving anything by moving to Linux now and I can use those copies safely until 2020.

By then, I may have to pony up a whole $200 to buy a few copies of Windows 10.

Yea, I'm not moving to Linux over that and neither are most people. My annual "Windows Tax" is maybe $20 a year spread out over time, and that is for 3 computers in my home and 5 in the business.

This fascination with "I wanna free OS" just baffles me, the cost of the OS is so minor compared to everything else, who really cares?

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

the general public is unfamiliar with alternatives

The general public has never heard of Apple and the Mac?

Re:What about other devices?

[Darinbob]

Monopoly does not mean owning 100% of the market and it does not mean there is no competition. It means that they dominate the market enough that their position in one market will leverage them unfairly in other markets. There have been legal judgements declaring Microsoft a monopoly, it's not just my opinion.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Apple and Google sell their respective operating systems for... wait for it... zero dollars and zero cents per copy.

This might be why Apple decided to just start giving away OS X. :)

Re: What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

What people? A handful of geeks who've heard of Linux?

This... WAY, way too many geeks do not understand what Joe Consumer really wants...

Apple has sold a third of a TRILLION dollars worth of iPhones because they DO understand that most people do NOT want to screw with all that...

Re: What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

The number of buyers who would actually want to install an alternative OS (or be able to) is tiny.

^ This... So many geeks keep thinking that the "year of the Linux desktop" is just around the corner with the mass hords of consumers just waiting to be free of Microsoft and Windows.

Except... they aren't... and Linux isn't coming to the desktop... frankly, probably never...

My wife wants a computer that turns on and works. My Mom wants a computer that turns on and works.

Neither of them care if the computer is $600 or $650, so long as the above is true.

A computer for $650 that comes with Windows, runs anything, and just works, is far more useful than a computer for $600 that comes with some unknown OS called Linux that doesn't run all their software.

This is just a fact, the sooner tech heads understand this, the better off everyone will be.

Every time a new iPhone comes out, tech people complain about Apple and their "closed ecosystem".

You know what? Apple makes the majority of the profit in the smartphone business while selling only a fraction of the total handsets. Apple has sold over one third of a TRILLION dollars worth of iPhones.

Consumers clearly like what Apple is selling. That the minority of tech people don't is completely meaningless.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

I don't think I could convince very many people (at least, not non-techies) that my dishwasher, refrigerator, and washing machine should be referred to as "computers".

:) Have you SEEN some of the new dishwashers and refrigerators?

http://www.samsung.com/us/appl...

This one clearly has a computer in it... :) touch screen and all... You can listen to Pandora on it, you can check the news and weather, it has wi-fi built in...

Sure looks like a computer to me... :)

Re:What about other devices?

[Nikademus]

Because "most people" want their computer from Dell and HP to come with Windows.

No, they do not WANT their computer with windows. They have been forced into windows for ages, so now they are accustomed and see no reason why it wouldn't be that way (and most don't even know alternatives exist anyway).
It's about the same as drugs, really. At first you get some nasty effect, then you get accustomed to it , find that normal and want more of it....

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Or simply require the product key to be purchased separately and ship an unactivated copy of Windows on the computer.

Sure, lets have the government impose a PITA requirement that the general public isn't asking for, all the while getting into meddling with private business matters.

Great idea!

Whatever happened to "let the free market work it out"?

Dell SELLS multiple computers without Windows and has for years. What is the problem?

Re:What about other devices?

[paulatz]

BTW, you CAN buy a Dell without Windows, you just have to order it that way, their business division sells them.

They only sell a few modem without operating systems, i.e. no laptops in europe.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

No, they do not WANT their computer with windows.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I think you're simply wrong.

But you're welcome to your point of view. :)

--------------

Let me put it another way... There really are only 3 modern desktop OS.

Windows
OS X
Linux

Some people indeed would be happy with OS X, except it is WAY too expensive for what you get for most people.

Linux? Are you kidding? The average customer is NOT interested in Linux. It has been tried... Red Hat and others have been trying for nearly 20 years to get Linux on the desktop...

MS isn't preventing people from selling computers with Linux on it... PEOPLE DO NOT WANT LINUX ON THEIR DESKTOP.

It really is that simple.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

They only sell a few modem without operating systems, i.e. no laptops in europe.

Did you ever stop your "year of the Linux desktop" drumbeating long enough to ask why that might be?

Dell tried it almost 10 years ago, they sold consumer systems in the $500 range with Linux, the return rate was much higher than for Windows machines.

People just don't want it... but you don't want to hear that, so instead you blame MS for being evil...

Re:What about other devices?

[Nikademus]

People really don't care what OS is on their computer, as long as it pre-installed and works the way they know. It could be QNX or plan9 or anything else, as long as they are able to to the things they know how to do.

Re:What about other devices?

[Uberbah]

Then people need stop claiming it's free like they're doing in this thread.

More like: the Stallmanites need to get over their obsession of forcing the other 99.99999999999999999999% of the world to adopt their redefinition of an old word.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

People really don't care what OS is on their computer, as long as it pre-installed and works the way they know. It could be QNX or plan9 or anything else, as long as they are able to to the things they know how to do.

^ This...

Windows has been around for over a generation now, MS has been the OS supplier for nearly 2 generations now...

People know it, people use it, people are happy enough with it.

Changing is time consuming and hard, people don't want to change that much.

MS made a huge mistake being late to the phone and tablet business, Apple and Google own that space now.

Re:What about other devices?

[Uberbah]

It's a shame, because I'd love a mini tower with at least three drive bays, built in CD burner

So build one. Hackintosh sites have been around for years, some giving monthly CPU/motherboard guides, and Apple has never gone on the warpath to shut them down. So long as you don't try and sell your Hackintosh commercially, they wont give a shit. If you have some moral problem with that, just buy one of their Dr. Dre headphones that are 95% profit if you want to give them some money.

Re:What about other devices?

[tepples]

Windows on a USB 3 SSD? That's something I could see working.

Re:What about other devices?

[Sique]

Actually, it makes it right. Right enough to be legally enforceable. You can go rabulistic about monopoly if you want, but that doesn't change the fact, that the legal term "monopoly" was found to fit Microsoft's business.

Re:What about other devices?

[tepples]

By then, I may have to pony up a whole $200 to buy a few copies of Windows 10.

And how much to replace multi-thousand-dollar specialized peripherals, such as CNC mills, that have no Windows 10 driver? And how much to replace your applications with Windows Store applications once Microsoft castrates the desktop, if some people’s conjectures come through?

This fascination with "I wanna free OS" just baffles me, the cost of the OS is so minor compared to everything else, who really cares?

For one thing, the fact that it's not only cost. Free software gives you the flexibility to hire anyone to make a program do what you want, not what Microsoft wants. If you have 14 minutes, watch Richard Stallman's recent TED talk.

Re:What about other devices?

[tepples]

I can't build a PC

Most people don't build their laptops.

Re:What about other devices?

[tepples]

Or having those search engines create their own apps? Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, and a whole bunch of other search engine apps are available for free directly from Google Play.

Except every search engine but Google seems to half-ass its apps. The first time I tried to install the Bing app on my Nexus 7 tablet, I was told it wasn't supported on my carrier. (I'm in the United States and my Internet carrier is Xfinity by Comcast.) It remained unavailable until roughly when Bing changed to the angular logo. And when I used to use the DuckDuckGo app, its built-in browser would routinely "stop working" (throw an uncaught exception).

Re:What about other devices?

[Archtech]

"Then she doesn't need a PC, she needs an iPad or a Surface RT".

Good luck buying one of those with a 24-inch screen, so she can see her pictures in full glorious detail. And read her messages in 24-point, because her eyes aren't so good any more.

But at least it'll fit in her purse. (And probably stay there, when she forgets about it).

Re:What about other devices?

[BarbaraHudson]

Except every search engine but Google seems to half-ass its apps.

Sounds like an opportunity knocking for an independent developer. Except that there are also already a ton of other search apps, including aggregators, so if Bing, DuckDuckGo, et al don't make proper search apps, they're losing an opportunity to control how their service and brand are being presented to users. The marketplace has, in effect, worked around the "damage".

There are plenty of corporate apps directed at consumers that just plain suck - they look like they were thrown together just to have an app, and they're not really useable. Converting your weekly sales flyer into an image and having it download onto a phone screen where, even zoomed in 3x it's illegible, is just crap.

Re:What about other devices?

[nytes]

OK, that's a new one to me :)

*sigh* I guess I'm going to have to retrain my wife - "Honey, could you check the refrigerator computer and email me the shopping list?"

Re:What about other devices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple does not compete in the price brackets that the general public can afford.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

:) All we need is RFID tags in all the food we buy and this can keep track of what you put in and take out (and don't put back), so it knows what you need.

Imagine being at the store and being able to ask it remotely, "hey, do we have milk?"

Re:What about other devices?

[Damarkus13]

And how much to replace multi-thousand-dollar specialized peripherals, such as CNC mills, that have no Windows 10 driver?

Stop with this stupid argument! Why ids your multi-thousand dollar specialized peripheral not firewall away from the internet? Oh, it is? Then stop whining and just keep using XP. It has to be, because of some weird edge case? Then realize you are an edge case, and it pretty much always sucks to be an edge case. Either way, I'm tired for that rubbish argument.

Re: What about other devices?

[macs4all]

Exactly.

I am an embedded Developer with over three decades of paid experience. Do these people really think someone like me (or me) doesn't realize that technically, these devices could be considered a "computing device"?

But, the less fanatical among us nerds, you know, the ones that don't have to prove that they are "smart enough" to get Linux to run on their toaster, just because they can say they did it (woohoo), realize that these are still, at the end of the day, Appliances with an Embedded microcontroller, or System-on-Chip, inside.

So, with that in mind, is a device with a mask-programmed microcontroller a "computer"? You can't run arbitrary code on it. Isn't the microcontroller just another form of ASIC at that point? You can't install Linux on it, any more than you can do so on your Cat. Yet inside that MCU, it's the same CPU core, same RAM, same peripherals, running the same instruction set. The only difference is that it has been built with a last-mask that happens to have a printed pattern on it that causes the part to act as a particular state-machine. But is it a "computer". No, it is not.

So please quit trying to Impress yourselves by declaring just any-old-thing that happens to have an MCU in it a "computer". Because, in just a very few decades (when it will be even harder to find anything that isn't an Embedded System), people will simply look at you like you're daft, punks.

Re:What about other devices?

[AmiMoJo]

Years ago when I worked in a computer shop we tried selling machines with Linux at a discount. Quite a big discount too since we were too small to get the deals Dell does on Windows. We sold a few but they all either installed a pirate copy of Windows or came back and complained. They either couldn't understand it (many people rely on an established routine to do things, or asking friends who only know windows) or wanted to install Windows software. There were loads of free apps and they were always virus free, but apparently people don't want to learn or explore.

Re:What about other devices?

[paulatz]

Yes, there have been legal judgments... Doesn't make them right. :)

They're not random people on the internet, hence they may be wrong

Re:What about other devices?

[paulatz]

An Italian judge decided this way: It means this is the law in Italy. You complaining on the internet won't change a damn, and I don't give a damn about it.

Re: What about other devices?

[robbyb20]

So after reading up on the monopoly history of Microsoft regarding windows, I find a couple things contradictory.

1 - Microsoft was accused of anti-trust practices for undercutting other OS bundled with other software(Norton/DVD burning software/etc) to lower price. Side note, it's PC manufactures that decide this part, not Microsoft.
2 - Microsoft was then accused of bundling their software(media player/ie) as not giving competition a shot at market share.

Meanwhile
1 - Macs bundle their software(quick time/safari/etc) with their computers for an insanely high price and they are treated as a well oiled user experience.
2 - linux has free software that is usually not full featured and may perform certain functions very well.

So what's happening here is since Microsoft has a large foot print, they get beat when trying to lower price with bundled 3rd party apps, then gets beat because it comes with a full user experience, and now STILL gets beat because it's still considered a monopoly by internet people 10 years after the last judgement was handed down.

Now, about the Microsoft tax. Why can't pc manufactures sell pcs with an os on it? Those who don't want a pc with an os have lots of options available. Those who are want to buy a pc that they can start using right off the bat can buy either an expensive mac or a cheap windows machine. So now people want to piss on Microsoft again and say they don't want the os?! Wtf are they going to buy from pc manufactures that want to offer a full product? It's already been mentioned that some companies have tried the linux route and failed, what other option do they have?

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

That has nothing to do with what I said...

Fine, so in Italy Dell has to refund *something* if you buy a PC from them and don't want Windows.

Great, that doesn't change anything and the number of people who will ask for a refund will be tiny.

I'm simply pointing out that a judge making this ruling isn't going to change the situation.

Re: What about other devices?

[robbyb20]

So you want all computers to come without an OS, is that correct?

Re: What about other devices?

[robbyb20]

Ever try hackintosh? Don't, works like shit. Mac OS is not free. Do people really think a mediocre i5 and mid range nvidia card with 4gb ram really costs $1500? Get outta here!

Re: What about other devices?

[robbyb20]

Apple makes intel processors? Nvidia cards?

Re: What about other devices?

[Bert64]

They may not want to screw with it themselves, but they want and deserve a choice... More choice means more competition, and while there is plenty of competition on the hardware side of things they are pretty screwed when it comes to software. That's why hardware has improved massively and gotten ridiculously cheap, while software is still buggy and continues getting more expensive.

Re:What about other devices?

[vandamme]

Not if you're an American. Because we believe in Freedom, yee hah!

Well, for companies, anyhow.

Re: What about other devices?

[robbyb20]

So why is Microsoft's fault that oems see that consumers want windows and pre-install it? Oems don't want to ship a computer to stores that don't work out of the box. Maybe the answer you're looking for isn't to blame msoft but the market and why someone hasn't stepped in to provide a linux alternative in stores.

No one, I repeat, no one wants to buy a computer that doesn't work out of box. You have 3 choices. Overpriced macs, same hard as mac windows machines for hundreds less, building the computer yourself for almost the same price as the windows machines and still needing to purchase or install an os.

Re: What about other devices?

[cbiltcliffe]

What people? A handful of geeks who've heard of Linux?

Maybe the municipal government of Turin?

Re:What about other devices?

[Dahamma]

Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. You are now speaking for all computer users? That only takes one counter example to prove false.

And it's easy to provide an example that affects a lot more than 1 person: iTunes. As crappy as it is, it's used by several hundred million people - and it doesn't run on Linux. (And please don't try to start explaining how you can do it with Wine, because that already goes WAY beyond everything you just said about "able to the things they know how to do")

And it you are talking some philosophical "if people can't tell what OS it is they don't care" - sure, but that will never be the reality, and is about as useful and practical an argument as hypothesizing we are all living in The Matrix...

I use Linux on a workstation for many things at work, and as a server at home. I also use a Mac (with OSX, Linux, and Windows installed) because their hardware is really nice and Parallels works well. And I also have a Windows machine because I do like the occasional PC game, and Windows is the only OS that supports all of the mainstream games. I absolutely care which OS I am using for each because the reality is, they all have their strengths and will never be 100% interchangeable.

Re:What about other devices?

[KevReedUK]

Right now they "force" everyone buying a PC to get Windows, and they're able to do this by unfair OEM licensing schemes and as their position as the monopoly player.

There are so many things wrong with this statement...

1. "unfair OEM licensing schemes"

Really? When did the planet where life is fair blow up and scatter its people across the galaxy and why did so many of them land here?

2. Monopoly player?

So Apple is out of business and no longer selling a Mac? I can't build a PC or order one from Dell without Windows and put Linux on it?

MS has a lot of market share, they don't have a monopoly. I know several people who own Macs.

The meaning of Monopoly, at least in legal terms, appears to have changed from the traditional meaning:

"The only player in the market"

to a somewhat more nuanced:

"The player, or co-operating cartel of players who have such a grip on the market that no other potential (or existing) player can be expected to have a reasonable chance of entering (or effectively participating in) the market".

This does not mean that all potential or existing players in a market should be expected to achieve parity, or be capable of it. What is important is the exclusion of ALL other parties from having the potential to effectively participate in the market. There is also the matter of related markets and the practice of players forming cartels where they essentially carve the larger marketplace up into smaller specializations and agree to split control of them such that each has a market that is "theirs".

As things stand at present, in the desktop market, there are two main commercial players, MS (Windows) and Apple (OSX). Both seem to have slightly different target markets, so aren't really considered to be in direct competition for the most part (when was the last time you heard about Apple trying to get a Mac on every desk in a large company, outside of the creative industries?). There is, however, enough of an overlap (Windows in some creative companies and OSX in an increasing number of homes) that neither can effectively be accused of dividing the market between themselves. This leaves the fight as being essentially between Microsoft and Linux. Granted, Linux is a very fragmented proposition, as competition goes, so you're not really comparing like with like, but it can be argued (and appears that it often has been successfully before the courts) that Microsoft's grip on the market, in particular via its commercial agreements with its OEM partners, has meant that whilst it is POSSIBLE to get a PC without Windows on it, it is sufficiently more difficult to do so, to the extent that they have an unfair commercial advantage over their competitors.

They may not be the only player in town, but to the average user, they might as well be. It is largely for this reason that they are regarded, including by several judiciaries, as monopolists.

Although... IANAL, and this is just my understanding of the matter...

Re: What about other devices?

[KevReedUK]

to an arguably lesser extent Android (in that case there is a separation - the phone is made by Samsung, HTC etc, the OS by Google, so the argument that they're integrated is weaker).

Depends on where the court considers the finished product to end when it comes to the OS, I guess... How many handset manufacturers in the Android arena release their phones with just the reference Android OS? To date, I haven't seen a single one (barring the "Nexus" branded ones, although even they do seem to deviate somewhat from the reference OS) that doesn't come pre-installed with a customised version of Android. That customisation may be as simple as chucking a few bookmarks into Chrome, or throwing the odd skin on an app/ wallpaper on the "desktop", but it's still a customisation that could potentially be considered to make it a distinct version of the OS, thereby strengthening the link between the OS and the hardware manufacturer. This is even more the case where the hardware manufacturer does its customisations, then the network (Sprint, Verizon, T-Mobile, EE, whatever) do a few more customisations on top of that. At this point, are they bundling someone else's work with their product (which your theory says is the infringing act), or are they bundling their own work (albeit a derivative work) with their product (which you seem to be suggesting would be OK.)?

Re:What about other devices?

[stoatwblr]

In the UK, using Dell's configurator you can remove Windows from the build.

Cost difference == nothing.

Either windows is free or you're paying the tax regardless.

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

All fair points...

The reality is, sometimes it just isn't possible for a new player to enter a market unless the government steps in and crushes the existing company.

That isn't "fair play", that is just the government picking winners.

A new desktop OS isn't going to be developed just because MS is set on with some rules or Dell and HP have to sell machines without Windows or refund the cost.

The same applies to Coke and Pepsi, they own 98% of the cola market. That is a duopoly and nothing short of the government actively crushing those companies is going to change that.

The same can be said in many industries.

Re:What about other devices?

[Meski]

Ship it with Windows for 'most people' then, and have a revocation at activation time that refunds the OEM OS cost. And stops Windows running after 15 days or whatever. More red tape, but it might keep both the 'most people' and the Linux / etc users happy. And the court system. Mac/iOS/Android appear to have solved the issue in their own way by making the OS free. (as in beer)

Re:What about other devices?

[FlyHelicopters]

Right, but what does this accomplish?

What Linux users are we really serving?

It isn't like you CAN'T buy a PC from a dozen sources easily without Windows on it.

This is just heavy handed government trying to get into the marketplace to accomplish... nothing...

What, so you can buy a HP or Acer and get a $35 refund?

Re:What about other devices?

[david_thornley]

What does MS Windows or Linux have to do with CNC mills? I don't know what they run internally (Linux would probably be the best choice, but nobody tells me), but they get programs in a specialized language (usually called gcode) downloaded into them and run that. Anything that will send the program and receive the output on the serial cable or Ethernet will do.

Re:What about other devices?

[tepples]

Anything that will send the program and receive the output on the serial cable or Ethernet will do.

I'm under impression that the protocol to send the gcode to the CNC mill is proprietary in some cases.

Re:What about other devices?

[Meski]

Which I likely wouldn't do, myself, I'd keep the license and run it in a VM. I was suggesting it as a fix that'd keep the regulators quiet, I suppose.

How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is clearly an illegal product tie, but somehow they are allowed to do it.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[jones_supa]

Most consumers aren't even aware of options (Linux). They see Windows as an integral part of the PC platform.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[BarbaraHudson]

Unfortunately, this ruling doesn't take into account a new reality - many new laptops come without a cd/dvd drive. It makes sense in a way - optical media are slow, suck power, generate heat, add weight, so why not get rid of them since they're usually not needed? But at the same time, how do you go about installing an OS on your shiny new os-free laptop if you don't already have an os to boot to to download your os of choice, or another computer to do the same, and no place to stick an install DVD?

People want something that runs when they take it out of the box. Telling them to buy their OS of choice on, say, a usb stick, and then going into the bios boot menu to select "boot from usb drive" to do an install is going to result in many machines simply being returned.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[gbjbaanb]

many new laptops come without a cd/dvd drive. ... how do you go about installing an OS on your shiny new os-free laptop if you don't already have an os to boot to to download your os of choice, or another computer to do the same, and no place to stick an install DVD?

off a bootable USB pendrive? Something that's been available and working for many years now.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Luckyo]

That is the reality of wanting an alternative operating system, and is a choice of the people. If you want simplicity as an end user, windows is currently OS of choice, as its specifically built to install itself automatically with all the necessary drivers and settings by OEM.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[BarbaraHudson]

Trolling for a quick up-mod? You purposefully ignored my point that most people wouldn't be able to do an install from a pen drive, as I wrote in the very next sentence.

People want something that runs when they take it out of the box. Telling them to buy their OS of choice on, say, a usb stick, and then going into the bios boot menu to select "boot from usb drive" to do an install is going to result in many machines simply being returned.

While we're on the topic, how would you extend that (booting from usb) to tablets and smartphones, where the real action is? Consumers don't want the hassles. They also don't want to pay out money to install an OS, plus pay for the OS if it isn't free, when the "microsoft tax" is way cheaper overall.

If Apple had had any brains, they would have licensed their OS to one and all long ago. It's not like they didn't eventually have to port it to x86 anyway, and we would have seen more competition in the OS space. Instead, with Jobs gone, Apple is no longer an innovator (the iWatch is just Apple's equivalent of the $999 "I am rich" app. Most people don't even wear watches any more - and Android has had NFC for a while).

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[macs4all]

Can't wait until the tie in between OS and hardware for Macs is shut down too. Being able to use MacOSX on any x86 compatible computer or buying able to buy a macbook without the OS (and don't give me the "Apple give away the OS!" crap, its value is baked in into the hardware, its just indirect...).

We wouldn't want any double standard here!

All Apple has to do is start calling OS X "Firmware", and that neatly sidesteps the whole issue. No court is going to say that a product can't be sold with Firmware written by the same manufacturer.

Think about it.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[BarbaraHudson]

So if this is such a great idea, why don't you do it (sell alternate OS installs on usb keys) and get rich? Oh, right, linux vendors have been trying (and mostly failing) to do this for more than a decade. And you want average Joe Sixpack to "boot from usb?" Do they press F2, F9, F10, F8 during the boot - different boxes use different keys. "Try one key, and if it doesn't work, reboot and try another" isn't going to work, when the boot prompt flashes by too fast for them to read.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer to your question is that bundling is generally not prohibited under US antitrust law.

The idea goes that so long as there is no market power being exercised, bundling products is ok. Only in rare cases, e.g., where a monopolist tries to leverage themselves into a new market by bundling their product with another, are there potential issues. (even then, only potential. For that, look at Microsoft's trials involving the Internet Explorer browser in the 90s).

So in the US, you get bundled software, peanuts on your airline (sometimes), blades with your razor, etc., toner with your printer, etc. I'm not endorsing the US rule; I'm just describing it.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[See Attached]

Because the monopoly is already sustained when someone buys the system, and therefore is forced to pay the Tax. Thats the Idea. The wild crazy thought that you -might- buy ONLY hardware is whats new here. This is not going to force everyone to use Linux or OS2 or ... (insert favorite OS here).... rather make some competition possible. Did any one see or feel the pressure dumped on OS2 Warp when it was pushed off the table by MS? I tried to purchase my Intel/Zappa P100 board with OS2 instead of WinXX, but the terms changed.. Only WinXX was allowed to be installed. It was then I smelled the rotten fish. Miss my Zappa. Music and Motherboard.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[BarbaraHudson]

There was nothing preventing you from buying the motherboard and purchasing a retail copy of OS2 and installing it (though I threw out my OS2 5-1/2" install floppies a LONG time ago, for obvious reasons). Alternate OSes have been available even in the early days of consumer computing (anyone remember Coherent? Xenix? Microware OS9?).

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Bert64]

So you offer the hardware with a choice of OS, or blank.
You can also sell pendrives with different OS on them, and there's no need to select any options to boot from usb - if the internal hard drive is blank and there isn't any other removable media most machines will boot from any bootable usb device thats connected.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Tough Love]

It is clearly an illegal product tie, but somehow they are allowed to do it.

Corruption?

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[nnull]

Why are you blaming Microsoft for this? This is the manufacturer of the products fault for not outlining their terms to Microsoft on how to resolve this. Microsoft is just selling a product that the manufacturers wanted with the terms they agreed too. If anyone is at fault, blame the manufacturer for these idiotic practices and their lack of foresight of the problem. A lot of these manufacturers will direct you straight to Microsoft and wipe their hands clean from any fault and everyone just blames Microsoft for this, this is the wrong attitude to have and we're letting these manufacturers get away with it. The so called "Microsoft Tax" is something these guys created themselves and you and me for accepting it. No one is forcing these manufacturers to bundle Windows, but they do it anyways to have a "complete" product.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[aristotle-dude]

Can't wait until the tie in between OS and hardware for Macs is shut down too. Being able to use MacOSX on any x86 compatible computer or buying able to buy a macbook without the OS (and don't give me the "Apple give away the OS!" crap, its value is baked in into the hardware, its just indirect...).

We wouldn't want any double standard here!

OS X is free as in beer if you have a mac and meet the minimum hardware requirements. The requirement for mac hardware is in the license. Are you here to tell us that you think the GPL terms should be ignored because you don't like them?

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[jones_supa]

Not a problem because Linux comes with all drivers inbox.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Darinbob]

Because the justice department doesn't want to prosecute. Well, they were attempting prosecution until a change in administration made it all go away.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Darinbob]

Microsoft isn't just providing a bundling option, it is mandating that the PC maker must bundle Windows on every PC sold or else is unable to receive OEM license discounts. This bundling is what essentially locked in Windows early on against the competitors. When you got Windows "for free" with your PC there was no incentive to remove it and replace with OS/2 or GEOS or GEM or whatever.

The peanut makers are not offering the nuts at 90% off but only if they serve them to every seat, but that's essentially what is happening with Microsoft's OEM licenses.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[jenningsthecat]

Not a problem because Linux comes with all drivers inbox.

Not sure if you're trolling, being sarcastic, or being serious. If it's one of the first two, then "good one". However if you're being serious, then I'll just ask, "Say what?"

Have you tried installing Linux on any up-to-date laptops recently? If WiFi, Bluetooth, and the pointing device all worked straight off after the install was done, count yourself lucky.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[rjlieb]

Microsoft was forced to end the practice you describe in 1994 when they signed a consent decree with the DOJ. Of course, by then they already had a monopoly in the desktop operating system market.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[FlyHelicopters]

Most consumers aren't even aware of options (Linux). They see Windows as an integral part of the PC platform.

For desktop PCs, it is...

Other than OS X on the Mac, Windows *IS* the PC platform.

Linux on the desktop is a rounding error and is likely to always be so.

It isn't a technical thing, Linux has long since been "good enough".

But so has Windows... :)

I first installed Linux in 1994, since then I've used many flavors of it. It sure has some nice features over Windows, I'll grant you that. I've run in on more than one server.

On the desktop? Yea, not gonna happen for the mass market. Companies like Red Hat tried that a decade or more ago, as did others... the market wasn't interested then, it isn't interested now.

The iPad is FAR more of a threat than Linux ever was...

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[FlyHelicopters]

Because the monopoly is already sustained when someone buys the system, and therefore is forced to pay the Tax. Thats the Idea.

Two flaws with this point.

1. The number of people who will actually request a refund and removal of Windows is tiny.

2. The amount of money removed from Microsoft is also tiny, thus not affecting the desktop OS market.

The entire premise is that if only MS was pushed aside, then Windows would lose its marketshare. The flaw with this idea is that there isn't anything else to take its place. You have OS X with about 6% marketshare, and that won't change much due to the price of Macs.

Linux? Are you kidding? The "year of the Linux desktop" isn't coming...

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[tepples]

how would you extend that (booting from usb) to tablets and smartphones, where the real action is?

Booting from microSDHC perhaps? A lot of Nook Color owners boot from SD most of the time.

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[BarbaraHudson]

All this extends the amount of time it takes to make a sale. "Which OS do you want to go with that? Do you know how to install it? No? We'll install it for you for another $149.00. Oh, and you can't activate your phone until we're done, so please come back in a few hours."

If mandatory offering of choice of OS on every device had been the requirement over the last decade, Microsoft Windows would be the #1 OS on smartphones and tablets today, since people go with what they're familiar with. Blackberry would possibly be a weak #2. Android running on linux would be like linux on the desktop - a very small niche. Chromebooks would also be required to be sold with the option to use IE atop Windows. Metro everywhere!!!! Agghhhhhhh, THE PAIN.

Re: How does MS get away with it in the US?

[robbyb20]

So aren't you basically paying the apple tax with the hardware? Isn't that the same thing people are arguing about with windows desktops?!

Re: How does MS get away with it in the US?

[robbyb20]

Exactly! Quite bitching and learn, otherwise the common person needs a computer that's bundled!

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[cbiltcliffe]

That is the reality of wanting an alternative operating system, and is a choice of the people. If you want simplicity as an end user, windows is currently OS of choice, as its specifically built to install itself automatically with all the necessary drivers and settings by OEM.

Errr....you've never actually installed Windows, have you?

Re:How does MS get away with it in the US?

[Luckyo]

Last time about two weeks ago on this machine as I upgraded to SSD, straight from OEM DVD.

Apple?

[Galaga88]

How would this impact MacBooks, iMacs, etc? You can't really buy OS X separately, and upgrades have become free so I don't even know that there's anything to refund.

Re:Apple?

[EmperorOfCanada]

They might have a better defence as the OS is free. If anything where it might get interesting is that effectively you are buying the OS and it comes with a machine. Thus there might be a way to convince a judge that where Apple is going legally wrong is to insist that you use their machine.

Re:Apple?

[wisnoskij]

http://store.apple.com/ca/prod...
You can buy it, so the ruling is directly applicable. But I guess all they have to do is say that it comes free on all their hardware, and they might get away with it. Really they sell a specific product that obviously has to come with their OS to even make sense, if you want some hardware without an OS, that is a PC and it is not Apples fault that MS has prevented an OS free one from being sold.

Now for Android, I actually think that it is freely available.

iOS seems to live in a grey middle area. They sell developer versions, and as far as I am aware it is not freely available in any version, but it is also not given away. So is it free, or is it commercial, who can say.

Re:Apple?

[Overzeetop]

If OSX comes "free" with their hardware, but is also sold separately - or even just has a defined value separately - they will likely fall afoul of the law. Unless, of course, the judge is an Apple user in which case it will be swept under the rug.

iOS is definitely a different beast. You can't run any other software on an iDevice, and you can't buy it (developer licenses are not quite the same as an operational license). Same with Android and Windows Phone edition - the OS is arguably integral with the phone. At least, for now!

Re:Apple?

[wisnoskij]

But the developer licence can apparently be used like normal. Their are consumers who buy it apparently, so they can use the bleeding edge of Apple development.

Re:Apple?

[CastrTroy]

MS has done nothing to prevent a PC from being sold without an OS. You can buy plenty of computers without an OS. The reason you don't see more available from the likes of HP, Dell, Acer, and others is because it creates a support nightmare. 99% of the population would have no idea what to do with a computer if you shipped them a computer without an operating system on it. Also, not shipping an OS means they can't ship third-party nagware (Antivirus, PowerDVD, etc) on the computer that they get paid to put on there because a certain percentage of people will buy the premium versions.

What Microsoft has done is made it quite cheap to sell computers with Windows pre-installed. They certainly make it cheaper for Dell to pre-install Windows on a machine than for the end user to buy their own copy. They may have even said that they will raise the price if they don't make all their machines come with Windows. But manufacturers do that kind of stuff all the time in other areas. It costs almost as much for a whole new bike for the price you'd pay just for the drive train on a bicycle if you were to buy it apart from the bike. Companies pay big money to get exclusive rights to products (think games and products that are only sold in specific stores) because they know they'll make make money off the customer in the end.

Re:Apple?

[TMYates]

I think the point is that the OS is still forced upon you with a Mac like the person was with Windows in the article. Technically since they are Intel based now, you should be able to install Windows or a flavor of Linux on Apple's hardware. This is essentially the same argument. Why should I be forced to use Mac on a system that can run other operating systems?

Given equivalent hardware, it always seems that Macs are way overpriced in comparison to other systems. Should that mean that I can get a Mac without OSX at a more reasonable Windows machine price? Even though Apple upgrades are free, how many times of purchasing Windows would it take to even out the cost of owning one with OSX? Since Linux is free, that cost would never reach the TCO of one with OSX or Windows.

Re:Apple?

[macs4all]

They might have a better defence as the OS is free. If anything where it might get interesting is that effectively you are buying the OS and it comes with a machine. Thus there might be a way to convince a judge that where Apple is going legally wrong is to insist that you use their machine.

That will never happen, unless you can make Nikon offer its DSLR cameras' OS ("Firmware") to Canon EOS Rebel owners, too.

When an "OS" is offered only for a particular manufacturer's products (which is undeniably the case for OS X, but not for Windows (or even Linux)), then it is more appropriately termed "Firmware", and should be considered simply one more BOM component, like the CPU or Memory.

The fact that Apple specifically states that OS X is licensed only for Apple-Approved hardware (and the fact that they are the authors and publishers of same), only strengthens their legal position.

Re:Apple?

[macs4all]

If OSX comes "free" with their hardware, but is also sold separately - or even just has a defined value separately - they will likely fall afoul of the law.

Both Mavericks (current version) and soon-to-be-released Yosemite versions of OS X are distributed FREE; but are only licensed for use in Apple-Approved hardware.

Just because you might be clever enough to download Cisco's Router firmware from a Cisco download site (read "App Store") into a D-Link router (and even make it work), does not magically transmogrify that Firmware into Libre "OS" code.

Re:Apple?

[Vip]

> MS has done nothing to prevent a PC from being sold without an OS.

Are you serious? Either you have forgotten the 90's and early 2000's or are too young to remember. From wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

"In the 1990s, Microsoft adopted exclusionary licensing under which PC manufacturers were required to pay for an MS-DOS license even when the system shipped with an alternative operating system. Critics attest that it also used predatory tactics to price its competitors out of the market and that Microsoft erected technical barriers to make it appear that competing products did not work on its operating system."

The MS-DOS carried on into Windows. Even if you wanted to run Linux, OS/2, or anything else, you still had to purchase the MS license, or colloquially, the M$ Tax.

> They certainly make it cheaper for Dell to pre-install Windows on a machine than for the end user to buy their own copy. They may have even said that they will raise the price if they don't make all their machines come with Windows.

They "may" have? Let's make it clear. They made it so *every* computer Dell sells has Windows on it. If even one went out without Windows, Dell or any other manufacturer was forced to pay a higher cost for Windows and other MS products. Even IBM, who made the competing OS/2.

Vip

Re:Apple?

[gnasher719]

If OSX comes "free" with their hardware, but is also sold separately - or even just has a defined value separately - they will likely fall afoul of the law. Unless, of course, the judge is an Apple user in which case it will be swept under the rug.

The difference is that it is an _Apple_ computer with an _Apple_ operating system. I bet it would be completely legal for Microsoft to sell you a _Microsoft_ computer with a _Microsoft_ operating system and not sell it without it and not give you a refund. But we are talking about HP computers with Microsoft OS, and Dell computers with Microsoft OS, and Acer computers with Microsoft Os and so on.

Re:Apple?

[marcello_dl]

> The reason you don't see more available from the likes of HP, Dell, Acer, and others is because it creates a support nightmare.

I don't doubt your word but I can't understand. If I sell you a tire I am not liable if the gearbox breaks down. If I sell you a laptop with no OS I should bundle a diagnostic cd rom and if the hardware passes the test I should have no obligation supporting whatever stuff you installed on it, it is not my problem.

In fact I'd be happy buying a pc like that, all my support questions have been like "The restore dvd is ruined or somehow failed, I have the original OS serial number and want to reinstall, wat do?" and the answer, *crickets*.

Re:Apple?

[NotSanguine]

MS has done nothing to prevent a PC from being sold without an OS.

Actually, that's not really the case. Microsoft's Windows OEM licensing to PC vendors is (and has been for many, many years) based on the total number of units sold by the vendor -- whether Windows is being used or not. This creates a *huge* incentive for vendors to *only* support Windows, since they have to pay the licensing fee per unit, regardless of the installed OS.

What Microsoft has done is made it much more expensive to offer OS alternatives, as additional deployment and support resources are required to support other OS platforms. Since the vendor has to pay for the Windows license even if they pre-install another OS, there's a big disincentive to offer alternative OS' They certainly make it cheaper for Dell to pre-install Windows on a machine than for the end user to buy their own copy. They may have even said that they will raise the price if they don't make all their machines come with Windows. But manufacturers do that kind of stuff all the time in other areas. It costs almost as much for a whole new bike for the price you'd pay just for the drive train on a bicycle if you were to buy it apart from the bike. Companies pay big money to get exclusive rights to products (think games and products that are only sold in specific stores) because they know they'll make make money off the customer in the end.

There. FTFY.

Re:Apple?

[oh_my_080980980]

Technically? Really? Because Windows has drivers that will support Apple hardware? That's news to the world.

Re:Apple?

[FlyHelicopters]

And what is the problem?

Microsoft said to Dell:

You can pay $35 for every copy of Windows, so long as you pay for every single machine that goes out the door.

Or

You can pay $40 for every copy of Windows, and only have to pay for each machine that actually comes with Windows.

What would you have picked if you were Dell in the 90's?

Re:Apple?

[FlyHelicopters]

You would be happy, but most people would not.

Dell and HP sell to "most people", not you.

Dell has tried to sell consumer Linux boxes several times in the past 10 years, it has failed each time.

Re:Apple?

[TMYates]

Because the hardware itself comes from 3rd parties like Intel, Broadcom, Realtek, etc. Not to mention BootCamp is designed to allow dual or triple booting of the OS. BootCamp has been around a while. As for experience with it, I cannot say I have any. I wouldn't touch a Mac unless I had to. This only applies to Intel based Macs. PowerPC systems run a different architecture.

Now if you were trying to be sarcastic, maybe you should flip it around. Traditionally it has been Apple that was opposed to anything but their software existing on their hardware. Their drivers are always more limiting than Windows ever was. Especially graphics cards. Just my observation.

Re:Apple?

[Darinbob]

Microsoft has done things to prevent the PC to be sold without an OS. The classic example is the requirement that the discounted OEM license cost is charged on every PC the maker sells, whether or not the final product actually has Windows on it. The PC makers are not paying extra prices to get Windows, hardly, they are getting huge discounts over the off-the-shelf Windows prices (which are really steep) and so they'll gladly put Windows on all the PCs and absorb the cost for the few oddball customers who don't want Windows.

Also remember that Microsoft is a monopoly. While this practice may be legal for a maker of drive trains on bikes where there is lots of competition, it is not legal for Microsoft to do the same thing.

Re:Apple?

[Darinbob]

Not $35 versus $40, we're talking $35 versus $100 or more.

Yes obviously Dell picked the option that was best for them. The whole "problem" as you ask is that Microsoft is a monopoly, and what is legal in markets with competition is not legal in markets with a overwhelmingly dominant player. It doens't matter at all if Dell decided on this willingly and without coercion.

Re:Apple?

[Duncan J Murray]

MS has done nothing to prevent a PC from being sold without an OS

They may have even said that they will raise the price if they don't make all their machines come with Windows

You can get away with this when you're not a monopoly.

Re:Apple?

[FlyHelicopters]

Microsoft is a monopoly

Are you sure about that?

I see a LOT of computing options that have nothing to do with MS.

Frankly, they do have a large share of the desktop OS market, but that doesn't mean they have a monopoly on that market.

Apple's Mac is about 6% of the market, and plenty of people here keep claiming that lots and lots of people use Linux and have all setup their parents and grandma's with it...

So what is it? Is MS the only desktop OS option, or do others exist and are they reasonably accessible? I know that many malls have an Apple store in them and they all sell Macs.

--------------

As a side note... Standard Oil was a monopoly, they didn't just compete, they ran everyone else out of business. If MS worked like Standard Oil, then in 1997 they wouldn't have invested $150 million into Apple and guaranteed to provide MS Office for the Mac for another 5 years, they would have bought Apple and shut it down.

One of the very reasons MS probably invested in Apple was to keep someone else in the desktop OS business.

Re:Apple?

[westlake]

The MS-DOS carried on into Windows. Even if you wanted to run Linux, OS/2, or anything else, you still had to purchase the MS license, or colloquially, the M$ Tax.

The OEM MSDOS/Windows system install meant you had a marketable product that could be sold in the millions --- tens of millions --- hundreds of millions of units ---- at a mass market price.

Dell and the rest were crying all the way to the bank - any genuine interest they might have had in selling alternative operating systems in the home and SPHO markets could be measured with a teaspoon,

Linux in the nineties was simply not a mass market OS.

But the easily affordable commodity hardware built for the MSDOS and Windows ecosystem were god-sent to the geek who wanted to experiment with Linux.

Re:Apple?

[cbiltcliffe]

Apple doesn't develop their own supporting chipsets, CPU or GPU hardware, or any other such thing. At most, there may be some proprietary "System Protection Chip" that isn't needed at all for the system to work.

In fact, Apple themselves have instructions on their website for how to install Windows on Mac hardware. I guess you need to catch up to what the world has known for a while.

Re:Apple?

[david_thornley]

You can run MS Windows and Linux on Macs. When the intel Macs first came out, PC World (IIRC) called one of Apple's laptops the best Windows laptop out there.

No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of ..

[Ihlosi]

... software down the users throat.

I don't care if it's free or not. If it's annoying or unnecessary, I don't want to have to spend two hours to rid my newly bought computer of crapware I don't want.

Separate hardware from software

[oever]

A law that forbids selling hardware and software together would increase innovation. Consumers would only be able to buy hardware and software separately. That way, hardware vendors are encouraged to document the hardware and software vendors will compete on quality. Installation procedures would become very easy very quickly due to market pressure.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[jaguy]

What about the very blurry line between the definition of software and hardware? A compute devices shipping with no BIOS? Compute devices won't even power up without software. Then there's all the code that's embedded in the various silicon devices on the motherboard.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[warm_warmer]

The reason it's sold together is because people want it like that. There is obviously a demand for bundled software (given how prevalent it is), and the reasons for that demand probably range from "I don't care what goes on my computer" to "I'd rather my computer cost $2 less to have it include what essentially amounts to adware."

Many mom-and-pop shops can build computers without it, but it costs more and people aren't willing to shell out for it, which is why there are many fewer mom-and-pop computer stores out there now.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[jader3rd]

A law that forbids selling hardware and software together would increase innovation. Consumers would only be able to buy hardware and software separately. That way, hardware vendors are encouraged to document the hardware and software vendors will compete on quality. Installation procedures would become very easy very quickly due to market pressure.

Normal people don't like that though. Let's say that you try and sell product A to somebody that requires product B to function. This person has neither used nor ever had interest in A or B. Most people aren't interested in one or the other. Normal people want an A+B product where somebody else has worked out all of the compatibility problems.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[Technician]

Tektronics has done this with their test equipment for years. I found out the hard way the drivers to transfer screen prints to my PC did NOT come with the optional communications module. To get simple screen cap functionality, the software suite price is about 5X the cost of the communicatins module.

Are they sure they want to go this route? Fortunately for grey box PC's, alternative software is readily available. For Tektronics scopes, not so much.

It looks like more moden scope communicaitons modules now come bundled with the softare package.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[Etherwalk]

If you actually knew an oscilloscope from your ass from a hole in the ground, you'd be able to spell "Tektronix".

PROTIP: It's written on the front of all the Tektronix oscilloscopes that you've CLEARLY NEVER SEEN.

Now back under your bridge, troll.

Don't be mean.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[oh_my_080980980]

Operating System. There clearly defined.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[oh_my_080980980]

No. No one demanded that any computer came preinstalled with windows. It just came that way. But when other operating systems starting hitting the scene, people started asking to have the computer sans windows and the manufacturer started saying no.

Moron.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[oh_my_080980980]

Most people do not. Keep trolling for Microsoft.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[Dutch Gun]

I can't think of a better way to annoy typical customers by passing a law like this. "Market pressure" has already made the OS installation as simple as it can be: zero steps by the consumer. They want to take home their computer or laptop, plug it in, turn it on, and start using it.

Linux advocates seem to have this eternal dream that gosh, if people just knew they had an alternative they'd dump Windows and flock to Linux. No, they wouldn't. Consumers have had twenty years or so of opportunities to learn about alternative operating systems like Linux, which is both technically competent and completely free to use, and the desktop market for Linux still hovers around 1%.

Don't get me wrong... I'd love to see a healthier OS ecosystem for the PC. Windows 8 happened because MS dominates the PC market so completely. In fact, one could argue that it happened precisely because the competition is kicking the crap out of them in the mobile market, so they tried to leverage their PC market and failed miserably at that.

But even so, passing bad laws isn't the way to improve the situation. I'm not sure I have a magic bullet answer on how to improve the situation. At the very least, as a Windows user, I can certainly point to plenty of reasons why each and every time I looked at using Linux more seriously, I ended up turning away in frustration.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[NotSanguine]

The reason it's sold together is because people want it like that. There is obviously a demand for bundled software (given how prevalent it is), and the reasons for that demand probably range from "I don't care what goes on my computer" to "I'd rather my computer cost $2 less to have it include what essentially amounts to adware.".

Actually, most of that software is bundled not because of demand for some crappy application, but because software vendor paid the PC vendor to include it in their build.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[FlyHelicopters]

My phone comes with an operating system.

As does my motherboard, have you seen how complex some BIOSes are these days? A few will let you network and browse the web.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[NotSanguine]

A law that forbids selling hardware and software together would increase innovation. Consumers would only be able to buy hardware and software separately. That way, hardware vendors are encouraged to document the hardware and software vendors will compete on quality. Installation procedures would become very easy very quickly due to market pressure.

Normal people don't like that though. Let's say that you try and sell product A to somebody that requires product B to function. This person has neither used nor ever had interest in A or B. Most people aren't interested in one or the other. Normal people want an A+B product where somebody else has worked out all of the compatibility problems.

You mean we can't have a check-box on the PC vendor's web page where we configure our device, which lists several operating systems? That's far too difficult, isn't it? The issue is Microsoft's OEM licensing agreements which charge a license fee for every unit sold, whether or not it has Windows. This creates a huge disincentive for vendors to pre-install (and, as you put it, work "out all of the compatibility isssues") alternative OS'.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[jader3rd]

You mean we can't have a check-box on the PC vendor's web page where we configure our device, which lists several operating systems?

You can. But people will freak out when that checkbox would say "Linux + $80". They would think "But Linux is free". While it is a free OS, the OEM wouldn't get subsidies from bloatware providers which help subsidies the cost of the computer.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[jader3rd]

Most people do not. Keep trolling for Microsoft.

Really? How many people do you know (who don't read Slashdot) go shopping for Cellular service without also purchasing a phone from the Cellular provider at the same time? How many people do you know expect an ISP to provide a modem when they order 'internet' service. I would love to make it illegal to prevent the same companies from providing both the service and the device to access the service, but that never flies. When something goes both the device manufacturer and the service provider will blame the other one for why your experience isn't working.

I'm aware that there are no technical limitations preventing swapping out hardware to interface with different services, but that's not what the voting public wants.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[NotSanguine]

You mean we can't have a check-box on the PC vendor's web page where we configure our device, which lists several operating systems?

You can. But people will freak out when that checkbox would say "Linux + $80". They would think "But Linux is free". While it is a free OS, the OEM wouldn't get subsidies from bloatware providers which help subsidies the cost of the computer.

But folks don't even have that choice. Where we are now is a product of many years under the restrictive MS OEM licenses, and a whole, bottom feeding ecosystem has developed to exploit it. That has done a great deal, IMHO, to limit the innovation and development of alternative OSes, both free and commercial. What is more, in the absence of the predatory MS OEM licensing, as time went by, those self-same bloatware vendors would subsidize other OS' as well.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[westlake]

A law that forbids selling hardware and software together would increase innovation. Installation procedures would become very easy very quickly due to market pressure.

This is the home system I purchased through TigerDirect and other sources a few years back now. There have been many changes since, including a replacement desktop, but nothing that would invalidate the point I am trying to make here.

HP PC Desktop Refurbished.
Not a high end Windows gaming machine but with very credible specs overall.

22" HP LCD HD Monitor.
Mid-Line HP Multifunction Printer Refurbished
APC UPS

Microsoft HD LifeCam.
Logitech Sound System
Logitech Joystick

Internal Expansion HDD (Retail)
External HP USB 1 TB HDD.
Cable Modem (Leased)

I had this beast up and running damn near as fast as I could unpack the boxes and connect the cables.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[FlyHelicopters]

I would suggest that iOS is also firmware, it is required to boot an iOS device.

You think it is so simple, you clearly haven't been in a courtroom full of lawyers. :)

Re:Separate hardware from software

[FlyHelicopters]

Actually, most of that software is bundled not because of demand for some crappy application, but because software vendor paid the PC vendor to include it in their build.

People like cheaper stuff, the above allows the computer to be cheaper.

So the OP was correct. :)

Re:Separate hardware from software

[AmiMoJo]

These days much of a chip's functionality is often software. The firmware might be downloaded by the driver every time the chip is powered up, or the chip might just be an interface for code in the driver to use like the old WinModems.

Re:Separate hardware from software

[cbiltcliffe]

A law that forbids selling hardware and software together would increase innovation. Consumers would only be able to buy hardware and software separately. That way, hardware vendors are encouraged to document the hardware and software vendors will compete on quality. Installation procedures would become very easy very quickly due to market pressure.

Normal people don't like that though. Let's say that you try and sell product A to somebody that requires product B to function. This person has neither used nor ever had interest in A or B. Most people aren't interested in one or the other. Normal people want an A+B product where somebody else has worked out all of the compatibility problems.

The thing is, in this case, product A doesn't require product B to function. It can use product B, but it can also use product C, product D, product E, or product F. It only requires one of them, but when it's sold to you, even if you want to use it with product C, D, E, or F, you are required to buy product B.

Need more than a legal precedent

[EmperorOfCanada]

More than a legal precedent this needs solid regulations with teeth. I suspect that if you walk into whatever the Italian equivalent of Best Buy waving this judgement around and demanding a refund that they will just have security escort you out. But if refusal to even offer a Windows free machine was worthy of a fine, let alone not removing it, then windows free machines would be widely available.

Also the removal of Windows should have to be free and done in a timely manner (under an hour).

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[pr0fessor]

Here is thing when you walk into best buy or what ever they have limited shelf space they are only going to stock what they can sell... Which just happens to be windows based or a Mac. {they will also have some chromebooks and android tablets}

Now they don't want to stock a bunch of no os desktops because people {the majority of people} just want their stuff to work right out of the box. They can't afford to use that space when they could fill it with another item that will sell better.

As for anyone else you can go online and order a computer with linux or no os from multiple vendors... I may not be able to go pick up a linux laptop from the local store but I can order one on the dell website.

I can go to the local store and buy levi's jeans but not every fit and color levi's I have to order some of those online too.

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[oh_my_080980980]

LMOL - who the fuck buys stuff in a store anymore? Seriously? Oh havens how does Amazon make any money without a brick and mortar store....

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[FlyHelicopters]

Most people do... In fact, it might shock you... The majority of purchases are still done with cash, not plastic.

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[pr0fessor]

I specifically try to stay away from the stores around 6PM on most days but especially Fridays because they are mad houses full of people and I despise waiting in line for 30+ minutes so I'm going to go with "Just about everyone"

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[KalvinB]

Why should people be required to work for free? And why do you get to dictate the time it will take?

All they have to do is remove the hard drive and put in a blank OEM drive and then destroy the license sticker if one is on it and report to MS that that license is no longer valid.

And then you can have your $10 back which is about what Windows amounts to costing you after factor in the discount MS gives them and the amount the advertisers spent putting 3rd party software on the thing.

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[FlyHelicopters]

So the question becomes, "Does Best Buy have to offer *a* computer without Windows, or *all* computers without Windows?"

Those are two very different things.

This could turn out like Windows N edition in Europe, Dell might be forced to offer all computers with and without Windows.

Doesn't mean they'll sell very many of the "without" computers.

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably you had no car... I also lived in Rome and they have several mass retailers just outside the city center, especially on the highways around the city. Trony and Mediaworld were big... well, not so big compared to some US places, but very similar.

Re:Need more than a legal precedent

[pr0fessor]

I think the last time I saw linux in a local store was netbooks with ubuntu that were discounted to nearly cost. I imagine that the sales people were steering people away from them so they could up sell ms office and other windows based software.

Meh logical and sensible

[Virtucon]

Wait, this is Italy. Give it two years and then another court will rule that the practice is legal and order a new trial. In the meantime the laptop will be held until the second trial outcome is known.

Re:Meh logical and sensible

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, this ruling came from Italy's highest court, hence it cannot be reversed. Secondly, the US is the last country in the world that can judge on other justice systems (how many bankers have been jailed after the subprime mortgages' crisis? Oh, well...). Thirdly, if you are sarcastic about the length of amanda knox's trial, because that's what americans usually complain about when they talk about Italy's justice, I think that avoiding to murder someone and lie to cops is the best possible option.

Re:Meh logical and sensible

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think she didn't, you're just american.

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[warm_warmer]

Simple: don't purchase from vendors that do that. No coercion is necessary.

Not of i*Devices

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that Apple sells the device and the OS together while Microsoft only sells (or rather gives a licence) for the OS. The vendor is a different party. Hence you cannot buy a "HP" or "Sony" or "Samsung" or "Asus" computer without Windows on it. The windows licence cost is hidden in the seller's price. So the OS and the hardware aren't a bundle by the same company and hence you can't demand back money for your iDevice.

However, I wonder how that is handled in the case of Android. Android is freely available for download. However hardware manufacturers haven agreements with Microsoft to actually pay royality fees for (allegeds) patents in Android. Would that mean, that you could also ask money back from Microsoft if you buy an Android?

Re:Not of i*Devices

[jader3rd]

The vendor is a different party. Hence you cannot buy a "HP" or "Sony" or "Samsung" or "Asus" computer without Windows on it.

Wait, what? Every single last vendor you mentioned there sells devices that run OS's which are competitors to Windows. All of those vendors sells devices with Android, some sell Chromebooks, and some even sells computers with Linux.

How much would the rebate be?

[wisnoskij]

What does MS sell their OEM OS for anyway? Probably not that much. No one will likely bother.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[recoiledsnake]

In the end it's free or even makes money for the OEM because of the bundled software(like Google pays OEMs to have Chrome installed as the default browser). A similar machine without the OS won't have that subsidy, so it might end up costing more than one with Windows. Would be funny if the OEM would force people to pay extra for laptops if you want one without Windows.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[lesincompetent]

It's not clear. This time it says 140€. I've also heard something like 80€ in the past. Guess it depends on the retail vendor?

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[Luckyo]

Here in Finland, Finnish copy is 100€ and Swedish or English copy is about 107-114€.

http://www.jimms.fi/listaa/311...

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[tlhIngan]

What does MS sell their OEM OS for anyway? Probably not that much. No one will likely bother.

Roughly $10-50 or so. It's hard to pinpoint an exact figure because the bundled software often pays for that stuff. So the refund you get is often far less because they have to take out the software that subsidized the cost of the PC. It's one reason why Linux PCs often cost more.

Anyhow, you can still bundle in Windows on the hard drive and all that, and separate out the software as a line item. If you choose to pay for Windows, you get a card with a unlock key on it. You boot the PC, enter the key, and it boots up with everything.

If you choose to not pay for software, you just click "I did not buy software" and it erases the hard drive.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[wisnoskij]

So practically speaking, unless you hate MS with a passion, it is in your own interested to get the basically free version of Windows, do a wipe and reinstall, and go on with your life, as pretty much every tech savvy person has been doing for decades.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[oh_my_080980980]

Windows 7 Home Premium OEM is $100 http://www.newegg.com/Product/.... So it does cost a bit of money.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[oh_my_080980980]

No, you don't get a free version, you don't get the media. You wipe it you've lost it. Not too mention the OEM version runs about $100. So no it's not free. Moron.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[NotSanguine]

So practically speaking, unless you hate MS with a passion, it is in your own interested to get the basically free version of Windows, do a wipe and reinstall, and go on with your life, as pretty much every tech savvy person has been doing for decades.

A fairly reasonable point. However, if Microsoft's OEM licensing only covered those units that actually ship with Windows, PC vendors would have an incentive (or a least much less disincentive) to support alternative OS builds on their devices. This would, IMHO, improve competition in the OS market and give end consumers greater choices.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[westlake]

What does MS sell their OEM OS for anyway? Probably not that much. No one will likely bother.

Walmart --- with its enormous purchasing power --- spent about a decade trying to make a go of the OEM Linux desktop --- an ever-changing merry-go-round of obscure Linux distros running on no-name brand hardware with bottom feeder specs.

Your savings over a far more credible and competitively priced Windows product from the Acer, HP or Dell?

$25 to $50.

The system bundle from HP would likely include a style and performance matched monitor and printer.

Walmart never came within light years of solving the problem of selling plug-and-play peripherals to the newbie Linux user.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[Darinbob]

The OEM price is very cheap, but not zero. If you *know* you'll never use Windows why should you have to pay $30 or more for it?
(and $30 was at least one listed OEM price for Windows 8 after it was discounted because of poor sales)

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[tlhIngan]

No, you don't get a free version, you don't get the media. You wipe it you've lost it. Not too mention the OEM version runs about $100. So no it's not free. Moron.

Except it is almost free because software vendors pay computer vendors money to bundle in their software. Basically a company like Dell or HP go to Symantec and McAfee and ask them how much do they want in on their new PC. Highest bidder gets installed. repeat this several times and the cost of Windows is recovered.

Windows OEM to you and me may be $100, but Dell/Sony/Acer/HP/etc are not paying that - they're paying far less. Add in the bundled crapware subsidy and it can pay for the hardware too.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[Darinbob]

Except that in the past, on the rare occasion when you could get a PC without Windows, I recall saving $25 by clicking the box that said to have no OS installed. Granted most companies don't like this because they want all machines to be clones, but for those makers who are already customizing each PC (ie, you can choose to have Office or not, antivirus or not, and so on) then there's no added support costs to just leave off the OS.

Re:How much would the rebate be?

[FlyHelicopters]

I don't think you read that right...

MS does indeed charge for Windows. Dell then collects money for installing "shovelware" on the computer from third party companies.

No Windows, no Windows cost, but no income from shovelware either.

So the net cost may well come out even.

Example:

Computer A:

Windows included, price to consumer $500
Bill of Materials:
$400 for hardware, $50 for Windows, $-50 credit for installing shovelware from third parties, $100 profit for computer company.

Computer B:

No OS included, price to consumer $500
Bill of Materials:
$400 for hardware, $100 profit for computer company

-------------

Now do you understand?

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[Megol]

Yes the whole world should bend to your desires and ideas...

Are you aware that most people want Windows? Because important applications like MS Office, games and financial stuff just works on Windows.
Are you aware that most people don't know and don't want to know anything about computers? They want their computer to simply start and work without any installation of software.
Are you aware that changing to a model where some computers have Windows and some others not may _increase_ costs of computers? Think not only on the installation but also increasing costs for support and education of workers. Bulk costs for Windows are pretty low.

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, and you can also avoid getting scammed by not dealing with scammers, and avoid getting raped by not associating with rapists. You can also avoid getting shot by staying away from people with guns.

Sorry, but your moronic and over simplified statement is meaningless free market drivel.

You're an idiot.

Re:Derp derp derp

[Megol]

I'm a stupid muppet and am offended by your

...

...

...

insulting words! Please cease and

...

...

...

desist!

But...

[bugs2squash]

I only wanted windows, can I get a refund for the hardware ?

Re:Other industries?

[jones_supa]

Yes.

Re:Wait

[jones_supa]

So basically you just want the MS monopoly to continue? Yes, Dell is essentially forced to include Windows. Yes, the OEM OS costs are included in the price of the PC, and that is precisely the problem: the customer is forced to pay for something he didn't necessarily want, and isn't aware of the alternatives.

Meh logical and sensible

[ianezz]

Well, according to the original article on La Repubblica (hint: I'm Italian), the judgement came from the Cassazione, so it is as definitive as it can be in Italy (I know, I know...).

Yes, let's make things more difficult!

[AyukawaZero]

The majority of people want to go into a store, buy a computer, and have it work. They don't know or care what an Operating System is, as long as it runs the store-bought software they want to run on it. Giving people a half-dozen different combinations of hardware and software is only going to confuse them, prompt them to buy the cheaper product with DistroOfTheWeek Linux on it, and return it because it doesn't work the way they're used to. I could be mistaken, but I thought Dell tried selling systems without operating systems a few years back and gave up on it because shockingly, nobody was interested.

Re:Yes, let's make things more difficult!

[oh_my_080980980]

Wow so people are too stupid to use a computer that Microsoft is doing them a favor....wow.....

Re:Yes, let's make things more difficult!

[AyukawaZero]

That's a great dream and all, but it isn't some big conspiracy by Microsoft and the hardware vendors that's keeping it from happening. It's the fact that a vast majority of software that people want/need is non-existent or crap on other platforms. If a customer comes in looking to replace their aging Windows XP computer they use for business and I suggest a system with whatever Linux distro is popular that week, their first question is going to be "Can I use Quickbooks?" When I reply "No." the conversation is immediately over. There's simply no incentive for the average consumer to switch to a system they don't and likely won't fully understand, just because it's not Windows.

Re:Yes, let's make things more difficult!

[AyukawaZero]

This attitude is far more damaging to the adoption of other operating systems than anything Microsoft could do.

Difference between ruling and Judges comments....

[David_Hart]

I agree with the ruling that people who do not want to run Windows on a PC should be able to get a refund since the vast majority of PC makers do not sell bare systems, essentially creating a monopolistic market. If I remember right, it's like $20 back.

That being said, no one is being forced to buy a Windows PC or a PC from a particular vendor. As such, the rest of the comments about customers being forced to buy other non-free apps is just bull. It's like saying that because all cars come with tires that I'm being forced to accept one with a tow hitch that costs more. No, there are alternatives. It doesn't take much to google for MS Word alternatives.

Here is my question, if the Free Software Foundation and the open source guys believe so much in having free software on PCs, why not start up a company that only sells PCs and Laptops with free software installed? Why is it the established vendors problem to solve? Begin by launching a fund raising campaign on Kickstarter, find a hardware supplier on Alibaba, and open a web storefront. It's not that hard...

Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing.

[extranatural]

Am I the only one who thinks this is not a good thing?

Ultimately the distinction between hardware and software is an arbitrary one. Both mediums combine to provide the function required for a given product.

Let's pretend I am a hypothetical manufacturer of electronic devices. I am making some awesome hardware, and some equally awesome software to compliment it. They function beautifully together combining to make one truly cool product. Why should I be compelled to sell a variant of my product with have of it ripped out? That just harms the overall quality of the products my company is known for.

Would you ask a car manufacturer to sell an unpainted version of their vehicles because it's unfair to other paint manufacturers? Would you demand a watch ship without gears, so you can specifically choose what time keeping mechanism to use? Would you require lightbulbs to retail without gas inside, so you can choose to fill it with nitrogen or argon yourself?

Of course not! You choose to buy a car in the color you want. You buy a completed watch that you think keeps time the best. You purchase a lightbulb that already has the features your want.

Software made to compliment hardware and vice-versa can be awesome. I want to buy my hardware from a vendor that supports open source because they think it's worthwhile, not because they begrudgingly were obliged to make it.

Linux, BSD, other open source solutions are awesome, and if I am a hardware vendor I am going to build hardware that supports it because it's awesome. Not because I've been strong armed into it by a the courts.

Which free are they talking about?

[thieh]

I am inclined to think it has a problem with including non-gratis stuff and not necessarily non-libre stuff, which would spring something like "windows trial version" in such cases.

Re:Which free are they talking about?

[jones_supa]

Then you don't have to do much. Just ship an unactivated Windows version. 30 days to activate. Then the customer can purchase an OEM product key separately.

Wait, what?

[roc97007]

> The judges sharply criticised the practice of selling PCs only together with a non-free operating system as "a commercial policy of forced distribution".

All together now... YA THINK??

Freak outbreak of common sense

[GameboyRMH]

It's like this news is from some weird alternate universe where we don't throw all logic and reason under the profit bus.

Re:Freak outbreak of common sense

[MaWeiTao]

I suppose in your universe cars would come without tires so that they can't force you to go with Pirelli over Michelin.

People want convenience. They don't want the pain in the ass of having to choose and then install their own OS, or worse, paying someone else to do so. I can't imagine a PC would be any cheaper without Windows, and if so, how much cheaper would it be? $20? $50? But the alternative is paying $80+ for a copy of Windows, which most consumers would inevitably buy. Many would then be forced to spend another $50-$100 to pay someone to install it.

For those who really don't want Windows, there are already countless avenues for purchasing a Windows-free machine.

Re:Freak outbreak of common sense

[GameboyRMH]

Preinstalled Windows is only cheaper than separate copies of Windows because MS decides to price it lower - precisely to perpetuate its use as a lock-in mechanism. So your price argument is a circular one.

Tires and cars is partly a decent analogy because there are similar bundling deals used with new cars, but there are a couple of big differences - there isn't a convicted monopolist behemoth tire manufacturer dominating the market with a more expensive and arguably inferior product that's bundled with virtually all cars, and not only do most people not drive their car on the factory-fitted tires for the vehicle's entire life, but they'll be forced to change them early in the car's life.

In fact if I was buying a car, I'd love to have the option to choose some Kumho SPTs or maybe even Dunlop Z2s over the bargain-bin all-seasons or slippery eco-tires that most cars come with.

Re:Should be obvious...but it's not

[91degrees]

You are compelled to buy the RAM though, and the battery and the power brick. These will have different manufacturers, be available separately, and alternatives will be available. Why is the OS not considered simply another component?

The geek never learns.

[westlake]

PC sales took off like a rocket with the introduction of the OEM system install at the wholesale price.

The balanced and tested configuration of hardware and software that worked out of the box. --- and was sold as a mass retail product under a single - unified - warranty.

Not the kit of parts that appealed only to the hobbyist or the IT pro.

If it worked, it worked. If it didn't, it went back to the store. The buyer wasn't obliged to diagnose hardware and software conflicts or borked system installs --- or pay for the privilege of having these problems solved for him

Re:The geek never learns.

[NotSanguine]

If it worked, it worked. If it didn't, it went back to the store. The buyer wasn't obliged to diagnose hardware and software conflicts or borked system installs --- or pay for the privilege of having these problems solved for him

And in the absence of Microsoft's rip-off OEM licensing agreement (pay for each unit you sell, regardless of installed OS), PC vendors would have invested in alternative OS builds and support, obviating that issue. Had this been done years ago, we'd have a much more competitive OS market, rather than what we have now.

Re:The geek never learns.

[westlake]

PC vendors would have invested in alternative OS builds and support, obviating that issue. Had this been done years ago, we'd have a much more competitive OS market, rather than what we have now.

The vendors had no interest in alternatives.

What they wanted was a place in the lucrative market that had evolved around the IBM PC and PC clone.

In the eight bit era there were many competing operating systems in the home market. If you needed an office machine, CP/M was your first and most likely only choice.

The IBM PC was designed to make the transition to the 16 bit world as painless as possible for the both users and developers. Third party software support for the MSDOS and IBM PC was strong from Day 1 and evolved rapidly over the next two years.

--- and by decades end had eclipsed everything in sight.

The Mac doesn't make its appearance until 1984 --- with barely enough resources available to support the Mac GUI.

Let's push it further!

[Red Herring]

I hate the keyboards that come with laptops. I have a perfectly good USB keyboard that I always use. Why do manufactures insist on bundligna crappy chicklet keyboard on the hardware? I want a refund for the keyboard, since I never use it.

My laptop is also plugged into an external monitor (the 11" display is useless), so why am I forced to pay for a display?

Why should the "I don't like part of what I'm buying so I want my money back" argument be limited to software?

Re:Let's push it further!

[Gaygirlie]

I hate the keyboards that come with laptops. I have a perfectly good USB keyboard that I always use. Why do manufactures insist on bundligna crappy chicklet keyboard on the hardware? I want a refund for the keyboard, since I never use it.

My laptop is also plugged into an external monitor (the 11" display is useless), so why am I forced to pay for a display?

Oh, but you aren't forced to any of that. They're called "desktops."

Re:Let's push it further!

[BarbaraHudson]

Oddly enough, the current generation of laptop keyboards is actually mostly usable. So, while I have my laptop plugged into a second, larger screen, which I plugged a usb keyboard and mouse into, for the first time in decades I'm NOT complaining when I use the laptop stand-alone. As for your 11" display being useless, you could have bought a laptop with a larger screen - up to 18.3". And you can still use it as a secondary display since you plugged it into a second screen.

But if you really don't want the built-in screen and keyboard, just remove them and ebay them. I'm sure there are plenty of people looking for replacements on the cheap. Oh, it's too much bother? Too bad, so sad ...

Re:Let's push it further!

[Red Herring]

But there are systems available that don't bundle Windows... Macs, Chromebooks, and others. Yet despite that the Italian courts still said that someone who chose to buy a system that bundled Windows was eligible for a refund.

So, by that logic, just because there are desktops doesn't mean that I shouldn't get a refund for my unused keyboard/display.

Re:Let's push it further!

[Red Herring]

And the people that bought the systems with Windows, that they asked the courts for a rebate on, could have bought a Mac, or a Chromebook. So.... ?

This really makes no sense

[sirwired]

Why could I not apply this same legal idea to everything else included with the computer? "I already have a perfectly good power supply!" "Let me swap in my old CPU chip!" "Stop including an LCD on my laptop! I'm never going to use it!" "Curse the forced purchase of LED power lights! That's a good three cents I could save!"

There are more than enough sources from which a computer can be procured that do not have Windows. If the manufacturer or store you want to buy from doesn't have any, don't buy from there!

Re:This really makes no sense

[naff89]

"Yes, Sears? I've written my own custom firmware for my new refrigerator, so I'd like to be refunded the built-in cost of the bundled software I've replaced."

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[macs4all]

... software down the users throat.

I don't care if it's free or not. If it's annoying or unnecessary, I don't want to have to spend two hours to rid my newly bought computer of crapware I don't want.

Then buy a Mac. Not one whit of "crapware". Macs used to come with "trial versions" of MS Office; but I don't think that has been true since they developed the iWork suite. They also had a "trial" version of that, too; but then started simply including the suite for "free" with new Macs.

And five people will be happy.

[LostMyBeaver]

To get that $59 refund, people will spend 3.5 hours each and wait 6 months.

Oh... And most people won't bother. The court could have just paid the $300 which will actually get refunded from this instead of wasting what was probably tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands screwing with this.

Re:And five people will be happy.

[Teresita]

For that $59 refund you can get a five year old computer at RE-PC and put whatever operating system you want on it. The growth curve on clock speed and such has pretty much flattened out, and PCs that came with Vista or XPSP3 installed are quite serviceable.

20 years of this debate

[kartaron]

This argument (software bundling) has been around since 1993. Slashdot has been taking notice of this argument (beginning with IE bundling antitrust debates) going back almost that far. This ruling is about Italian legal standards and technology confusion more than what any of the comments are about. In fact this ruling is about microsoft and it's legacy more than anything else. Every piece of data storing technology has 'software' on it. Most of them can be described as having an OS. Im talking about everything from a flash drive to a car, to computerized airplanes, to CNC routers, to MRI machines, etc. 1) There is no chance in hell even Italy will uphold all electronics be available sans software. 2) Even in a limited situation for computers, requiring a company to warrantee a computer to be run under 100 possible OS's places a high burden on the company and will only happen in nations with very low tax income from computer manufacturers. 3) You can always just build a computer... with any OS you desire. 4) Phone companies wont do it for the same reason they dont adopt Ubuntu PC's.... 6 million daily calls from grandpas who accidentally got the Ubuntu PC and cant get his AOL to work... and by the way, where is the spider solitaire? Not everyone wants to spend days getting everything to work, then still having to remember his "root" . Andyou still have the compatibility problem assuming you get Android on an Iphone and tweak it till it actually works. Now all the Apps in Appstore need to be compatible with all phones, or acknowledge they arent and which they arent... test for all, debug for all, multiple versions of every app, linked features, etc. This is before apple quality testing. Then apple loses their clean 'it just works' appearance (which is their best sales edge) which is exactly what went wrong with Windows and why everyone is disgusted with it. All things to all people=consistently frustratingly sort of compatible. 5) Im not sure cell phone providers would ever allow true open underlying software because they dont trust people with unfettered access to their networks.

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[oh_my_080980980]

LMOL that's why windows tablets and windows phones have done sooo well *eye roll*

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[NotSanguine]

Are you aware that changing to a model where some computers have Windows and some others not may _increase_ costs of computers? Think not only on the installation but also increasing costs for support and education of workers. Bulk costs for Windows are pretty low.

As has been mentioned elsewhere (by me and others), Microsoft's OEM licensing terms charges vendors a per unit sold fee for Windows, even if/when the customer doesn't want it. That's like making onboard GPS in a car mandatory, rather than optional. If you have your own GPS, you can use it, but you still have to pay for the built-in one.

This raises prices and reduces free market choices for the consumer. Why should I pay $50 or $75 more for my Linux PC so you can have Windows at a discount?

Re:Wait

[oh_my_080980980]

LMOL yes Dell is forced to sell Windows. Just like Samsung, HTC, and other android device sellers pay Microsoft a fee for selling android devices.

Re:Don't the ALL do this?

[oh_my_080980980]

Given your level of intellectual capacity, try 18th century.

Re:Its an OPTION, not a mandate

[FlyHelicopters]

If all you want is a web browser, a full PC is massive overkill.

If you're buying a PC, it needs to do far more than run a web browser.

Re:Should be obvious...but it's not

[Bert64]

Because you are almost always given a choice of how much ram you want, same for disk and processor...

Re:Difference between ruling and Judges comments..

[NotSanguine]

Here is my question, if the Free Software Foundation and the open source guys believe so much in having free software on PCs, why not start up a company that only sells PCs and Laptops with free software installed? Why is it the established vendors problem to solve? Begin by launching a fund raising campaign on Kickstarter, find a hardware supplier on Alibaba, and open a web storefront. It's not that hard...

A href="http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=linux+pc+vendor">Here you go.

Re:Difference between ruling and Judges comments..

[NotSanguine]

Here is my question, if the Free Software Foundation and the open source guys believe so much in having free software on PCs, why not start up a company that only sells PCs and Laptops with free software installed? Why is it the established vendors problem to solve? Begin by launching a fund raising campaign on Kickstarter, find a hardware supplier on Alibaba, and open a web storefront. It's not that hard...

A href="http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=linux+pc+vendor">Here you go.

Let's try that again. Here you go.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[extranatural]

The buyer is not "forced" to do anything.

If the ice cream man only has chocolate, but I want vanilla. That does not make him a tyrant who is forcing chocolate upon me. He's just not interested in selling vanilla. As a private business he is under no obligation to sell vanilla if he doesn't want to. Similarly I as an consumer am not required to buy chocolate ice cream if it's not what I want.

A consumer can choose not to buy a computer from a vendor that chooses to sell it with Windows.

My point is simple, if you want Linux (or any open source), you are better off buying from a vendor who is interested in supporting Linux without a court order.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[NotSanguine]

Linux, BSD, other open source solutions are awesome, and if I am a hardware vendor I am going to build hardware that supports it because it's awesome. Not because I've been strong armed into it by a the courts. Likewise, I don't want to have to sell Windows because I've been strong-armed into it via Microsoft's predatory OEM licensing agreements

There. FTFY.

Not quite...

[denzacar]

The reason you don't see more available from the likes of HP, Dell, Acer, and others is because it creates a support nightmare.

They don't see them cause most people on slashdot are from a wealthy western economy.

All those notebook/laptop makers have models made for and sold exclusively to customers in Eastern Europe.
And said models tend not to be found on their main site, but on the sites of their licensed distributors in Eastern European countries.
That's who gets the support calls. Which are usually settled with a "bring it around and we'll have a look at it".

Those models also tend to be labeled as "no OS" or "Linux OS"... but if the local distributor is also an OEM partner, they may put an OEM Windows installation on those machines if the customer wants it.
Usually for free.

Or maybe not.
Maybe it's illegal and they would NEVER think of doing that just to sell a laptop and accessories and future support and...

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[extranatural]

That is a different issue.

I agree it is not good that Microsoft is allowed to create predatory OEM licensing agreements. I would be in favor of regulations that would prevent MS from making such contracts.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[NotSanguine]

That is a different issue. I agree it is not good that Microsoft is allowed to create predatory OEM licensing agreements. I would be in favor of regulations that would prevent MS from making such contracts.

But it's not a different issue, IMHO. In the absence of such OEM licensing agreements, vendors could have provided entree for a variety of alternative OS' (including some which were never developed because of the MS OEM lock-in),

Re:No vendor should be allowed to cram any kind of

[rrohbeck]

Come on, installing Linux doesn't take that long.

Re:GNU does the same.

[HiThere]

You've been trolled by the GP.

What monopoly?

[sirwired]

What monopoly? Is the Mac not a thing? Is it not an utterly trivial task to procure an OS-less PC in nearly any town bigger than a few hundred people in the civilized world?

Speaking for myself, while I can't buy one at Best Buy, there are any number of independent computer shops in my town that would be happy to build me one. Any town of any size at all has at least one of these places... I've been in some real downtrodden parts of BFE and even those towns usually have at least one computer shop. Most folks use it for repairs and local businesses use it for tech support, but they sell computers too.

monopoly != 100% market share

[Uberbah]

It means having market dominance that is a detriment to the consumer.

Is it not an utterly trivial task

No.

to procure an OS-less PC in nearly any town bigger than a few hundred people in the civilized world?

Most people are not software geeks. Most people do not dream of spending their weekends downloading a Linux ISO and installing it on their computers.

Re:monopoly != 100% market share

[FlyHelicopters]

Most people are not software geeks. Most people do not dream of spending their weekends downloading a Linux ISO and installing it on their computers.

so... help me out here...

If this is the case, how does the court ordering OEMs to offer Windows refunds help these people?

So you now get a Dell or HP without Windows. Guess what? You now have to download a Linux ISO and install it.

So... They'll keep Windows, thus making this whole thing pointless.

Re:monopoly != 100% market share

[Uberbah]

Or....they see no reason why they should pay for Shitdoze 8 on a replacement system when they can upgrade to Windows 7 using the DVD they bought a couple years before.

Not everyone is going to run out and get a refund for their Windows installation - this about making sure that those who want to, can.

Re:monopoly != 100% market share

[FlyHelicopters]

And that is fine, if they bought a retail copy of Windows 7.

If their old machine came with Windows 7 OEM, then they can't move it (legally) to their new machine.

Re:monopoly != 100% market share

[FlyHelicopters]

BTW, question...

If they have a retail copy of Windows 7 and want to keep using it, why are they wanting to buy a machine that comes with Windows 8 on it?

Why not buy a machine without Windows?

-----------

Let me put this another way...

I recently bought a 2015 Yukon XL, it came with Bridgestone tires on it. I'd rather have Michelin tires... Should I be able to demand a refund for the tires, since they were third party products?

FYI, I can't, they won't do it (I asked, they are legally "used tires" once they are mounted on the truck).

They did offer a credit for the tires as trade towards the Michelin, about half what they cost.

Third party apps that fail in Wine

[tepples]

It could be QNX or plan9 or anything else, as long as they are able to to the things they know how to do.

And a lot of "the things they know how to do" are proprietary third-party applications that fail in Wine.

My clean PC runs Xubuntu

[tepples]

I don't see Xfce being laggy on the Atom N450 in my Dell Inspiron mini 1012. What's not "full-featured" about Xubuntu?

Re:My clean PC runs Xubuntu

[jones_supa]

What's not "full-featured" about Xubuntu?

That it does not have any desktop effects!

Coreboot

[tepples]

OS on a phone is more like BIOS on PC as far as this ruling is concerned.

So where does Coreboot fit into your analogy?

Re:Coreboot

[Luckyo]

You have never rooted android before?

Mail order? Buyer beware

[tepples]

I may not be able to go pick up a linux laptop from the local store but I can order one on the dell website.

If I order online, how can I verify before purchase that the keyboard and screen will fit my hands and eyes?

I can go to the local store and buy levi's jeans but not every fit and color levi's I have to order some of those online too.

How do you make sure you get the right size when buying clothes online?

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[tepples]

I want to buy my hardware from a vendor that supports open source because they think it's worthwhile

So do I. But even if the vendor does support free software, a laptop with an unusable keyboard is still worthless to me. And big box stores tend not to have displays of hardware from vendors that support free software so that I can try them before buying them.

Sources, plural?

[tepples]

There are more than enough sources from which a computer can be procured that do not have Windows.

You say sources, plural, implying that there exist more than Apple.

If the manufacturer or store you want to buy from doesn't have any, don't buy from there!

So which store other than "there" should one patronize instead to try a laptop PC that does not come with Windows other than Apple before buying it?

Re:Should be obvious...but it's not

[91degrees]

But not the battery. And not the PSU. Your choice in RAM is limited. It's very hard to get a PC with zero RAM, or no hard disk.

Forever-day vulnerabilities

[tepples]

PCs that came with Vista or XPSP3 installed are quite serviceable.

The extended support period for Windows XP Service Pack 3 expired five months ago. It has vulnerabilities that Microsoft will never fix.

Try before buy

[tepples]

who the fuck buys stuff in a store anymore?

People who want to buy a laptop without being stuck with an unusable keyboard.

I make my own clothes

[tepples]

So tell me, since you want everything "the way you want", how many bespoke suits do you own? How many hand-sewn blue jeans, 'personalized' shirts, etc?

You asked the wrong person. I buy some of my clothes, but I make my own too.

I'll bet you spent a lot longer making sure it was "what your boss wanted" instead.

Exactly my point. Free software gives my boss the flexibility to hire me to make a program do what he wants.

Re: I make my own clothes

[robbyb20]

Yes, anyone can hire someone to create a piece of software to do what you want, but why reinvent the wheel every single time?! Also makes compatibility and support almost non-existent.

Building your own laptop

[tepples]

3) You can always just build a computer... with any OS you desire.

Which guide to building your own laptop do you recommend?

Re:Building your own laptop

[Red Herring]

Which guide to building your own laptop do you recommend?

http://www.macbreaker.com/2014/04/the-best-hackintosh-laptops-of-2013-2014.html :)

Re:Building your own laptop

[tepples]

In practice, you still usually have to buy a laptop with Windows on it in order to illegally put OS X on it.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[extranatural]

Yes, I understand where you are coming from, and in principal think these things are good. But for the same reasons I cannot force the grocery store to carry the brand of ice cream I like, I can't force Best Buy to carry a laptop with Linux (or BSD, or sans operating system, etc).

Actually a few years back my local Best Buy did carry some Dell Laptops with Ubuntu on it. This effort failed miserably, nobody wanted to buy them even though they were a little bit cheaper than the same machine with Windows. In terms of usability Linux, BSD, etc, just fails to measure up.

Did it ever occur to the people foaming at the mouth about the injustice of being "forced" to voluntarily buy a laptop with Windows on it, that perhaps Open Source fails to be in stores because it's not user friendly?

Most folks cannot be bothered to learn a new UI just to browse the web, write documents, and send email. Let's face it even the most polished of Open Source window managers is seriously lacking next to Windows and Mac.

It's no surprise to me many vendors aren't interested in carrying an unfinished product. It's great for code enthusiasts, but it's just unreasonable to expect general consumers have a serious interest in open source operating systems (at least as they are now).

Let's just say I got my Grandma a tux laptop purely out of principal. What window manager should I set her up on? Gnome? KDE? XFCE? Fluxbox? Which Kernel? Which Distro? Ubuntu? Xbuntu? Mandravia? Linux Mint? Fedora?

It would be hell trying to teach my grandma how to apt-get, or how to escalate permissions to super user.

My point is open source operating systems are a mess of inconsistent competing branches. It's a total headache. I see no compelling reasons to legislate that vendors go out of their way to support this mishmash of half-baked projects.

If anything that's a strike against Windows

[tepples]

Most folks cannot be bothered to learn a new UI just to browse the web, write documents, and send email.

Let's face it. Windows 8 has been a failure. Even something like KDE Plasma Desktop or Xfce feels more like Windows 9x through 7 than Windows 8's Start Screen and "immersive" apps do.

Let's just say I got my Grandma a tux laptop purely out of principal. What window manager should I set her up on? Gnome? KDE? XFCE?

When my grandma's Windows XP got trashed by fake AV that I couldn't remove normally, I just rescued her files, put on Xubuntu, and called it a day.

It would be hell trying to teach my grandma how to apt-get

Which is why modern distributions include a GUI for package installation and updating.

or how to escalate permissions to super user.

You don't need to. Apple had the equivalent of sudo in OS X even before Microsoft taught people how to "Cancel or Allow" in Windows Vista.

Re:If anything that's a strike against Windows

[extranatural]

If Xbuntu has a fighting chance, I imagine you should feel quite comfortable letting the market decide.

If it's truly a contender, it's popularity will grow. I must admit having tested several dozen flavors of tux over the years Xbuntu is my favorite, but I still prefer Mac OS X or Windows 7.

I agree Windows 8 is problematic, and perhaps that misstep is something the Linux community could take advantage of to promote open source.

Thing is there is a ton of infighting within that community. They can't agree on a window manager, they can't agree on a package manager, they can't agree on almost anything. I doubt they have the unity needed to appeal to commercial vendors.

Re:If anything that's a strike against Windows

[tepples]

If Xbuntu has a fighting chance, I imagine you should feel quite comfortable letting the market decide.

Xubuntu is Ubuntu with Xfce on top, backed by Canonical. It would have a chance were it not for abusive contracts with Microsoft that all major laptop producers other than Apple sign.

I doubt they have the unity needed to appeal to commercial vendors.

They have "Unity", just not the right kind. In fact, the kind of "Unity" that Canonical has been pushing on Ubuntu since late 2011 is why I switched from Ubuntu to Xubuntu in the first place.

Re:If anything that's a strike against Windows

[extranatural]

I agree MS has predatory contracts, and those certainly should be made illegal.

However by making a law that requires all computers be sold sans software is a very imprecise way of targeting the acts of MS. There are much better ways to approach this than a blanket law that applies to every manufacturer who sells a product consisting of both hardware and software. Many have good reasons for pairing specific software with specific hardware.

For instance this law inadvertently harms Apple, which has for a long time now practiced making hardware exclusively for it's software and vice versa. What about video game consoles? Should Nintendo be required to release the next Nintendo DS in a variant without an operating system?

Like I said in my initial post, the distinction between hardware and software is an arbitrary one. In the case of many (most even) devices there are integral components made out of both hardware and software. This sort of legislation is entirely blind to that.

Re:Apple licence

[BarbaraHudson]

Apple could have avoided their near-death experience back in the 1995, and having to accept a bailout to the tune of $150 million by Microsoft in 1997, if they had licensed out the Mac OS to all comers. The incremental cost of boxing and shipping a CD or DVD are a lot smaller than the incremental costs of manufacturing, boxing, and shipping a phone, tablet, or computer - and with Apple, you still have the costs of developing that software anyway.

Apple is losing market share to Android in both tablets and phones. And their newest "killer innovative product" is a watch? And copying the NFC functionality that many Android phones already have?

This is what happens as an industry matures and its' products become simple commodities. Competing on price becomes more important, since there's less core functionality to differentiate the offerings - especially the electronics, which all comes from the same few factories no matter whether it says Apple or Android or Microsoft or Dell or HP or Acer or Motorola or Lenovo on the box.

Software differentiates the products - not hardware. For example, the same pc hardware can run Windows, Linux, or OSX (remember the hackintosh?) if Apple wanted to sell OSX to the masses. They could still command a "brand premium" for their own hardware as "the gold standard", same as Dell gets extra bucks for Alienware-branded hardware. None of this would have prevented them from producing the iPod, or the iPhone, or the iPad, so the bottom line would have been net positive, and gotten their brand in front of a lot more people a lot earlier in the game.

Uh

[voltorb]

This is how Windows got spread in the first place. What were they doing 25 years ago?

Its about upholding the license agreement

[deppman]

The license agreement that come on screen when you first boot up says you can decline the agreement and receive a refund - or at least it used to. But for years that was a lie because people couldn't get a refund from Dell or HP or Lenovo or MS. Seems to me the judge is saying that this fraud must stop. Seems reasonable to me.

A matter of wording.

[pupitetris]

So, instead of selling PCs, vendors should advertise their equipment as bundles:

-- "Behold! The new ASUS this-and-that PC plus Windows bundle!"
-- "Do you have ASUS this-and-that PC plus Linux?"
-- "Oh, we only sell PC-Windows bundles, sorry"
-- "Then I only want the PC."
-- "Then go to a PC vendor. This is a bundle vendor."

Problem solved.

Now, id Only we could do this in the U.S.

[bbsalem]

Don't hold your breath, the U.S. in an Entrapanocracy; business interests have huge power in the U.S. Congress so it is unlikely that the monopoly Microsoft has with its OEM arrangement with PC Makers would result in a rebate if you refuse to Install Windows or scrub it with Linux or something else.

The case with Macs is a little different. Apple doesn't allow you to run OS X on other platforms and it makes no claim that non XS X will run on its systems or is supported on its systems. That is fair. PC Makers have no such claims which is why Microsoft's agreement is anti-competative unless they allow for a rebate for a customer who does not want to run Windows.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[cbiltcliffe]

In all your examples, the part that you're suggesting should be left out is made by the same company that makes the rest of the item.

In the Microsoft/hardware manufacturer case, they're two different companies.
In the obligatory car analogy, rather than the paint removed, it would be more like every car manufacturer (except for some niche ones like TVR, Saleen, Koenigsegg, and Caterham, none of which you can afford) sold you a car, but required you to buy a Nokia cellphone along with it. You already have a perfectly functional Samsung cellphone and plan, but you can't buy a car without this extra Nokia phone and plan being forced on you.
The thing they're removing is the Nokia, not the paint on the car.

Re:Dubious. I'm not convinced this is a good thing

[extranatural]

I understand what you are saying, and I'd almost agree with you, were it not for the issue of drivers. The OS & the hardware need to function well together, and drivers built into the OS have to facilitate that. I'm afraid that makes it rather harder to consider the two separately. Someone has to make those drivers for each OS that the system will support, that costs money. I see no reason to compel Apple to make their iPhone capable of running Android.

Most electronic devices are not made by one company. The origin of individual components shouldn't bug you.

My Nintendo Wii has an ATI graphics card in it. You might be surprised to know that many apple devices have Samsung manufactured chips on their main-boards.

Just because a component is made by a 3rd party that doesn't necessarily diminish the effort the vendor of the final product took in making a product intended to function a sum of it's specifically chosen parts.

Italian Windows Refund by Paolo Del Bene 23DEC2005

[id3rfix]

i invite you to read http://yro.slashdot.org/submis... happy hacking pdb

Re:bios is also software

[eriqk]

The bios is software, and you aren't going to install an OS without a bios.

The microcode is also software and you aren't going to run a computer without that either.

You get the idea?

I think it would actually be rather cool to have access to third party BIOSses, microcode, and so on. Folks who think this is too complex an/or time consuming can always go for the stock options.

Any indy computer shop

[sirwired]

Pretty much any independent computer shop will toss together an OS-less machine upon request. All but the tiniest towns have one. And, of course, there are any number of OEM's that will sell them via mail-order.

Re:Any indy computer shop

[tepples]

Pretty much any independent computer shop will toss together an OS-less machine upon request

I'm aware of independent computer shops that build desktops, but none that build laptops. And the problem with mail-ordering a laptop is the risk of having to deal with a screen and keyboard that look and feel unergonomic.