ISIS Bans Math and Social Studies For Children

mpicpp sends this news from CNN: In swaths of Syria now controlled by ISIS, children can no longer study math or social studies. Sports are out of the question. And students will be banned from learning about elections and democracy. Instead, they'll be subjected to the teachings of the radical Islamist group. And any teacher who dares to break the rules "will be punished." ISIS revealed its new educational demands in fliers posted on billboards and on street poles. The Sunni militant group has captured a slew of Syrian and Iraqi cities in recent months as it tries to establish a caliphate, or Islamic state, spanning Sunni parts of both countries. Books cannot include any reference to evolution. And teachers must say that the laws of physics and chemistry "are due to Allah's rules and laws." Update: 09/18 16:26 GMT by S : CNN has pulled the story over "concerns about the interpretation of the information provided." They promise to update it when they get the facts straight.

Comments

they will defeat themselves

[schlachter]

This certainly will make it difficult for them to pose a long term threat to anyone. A society that doesn't allow math won't last long.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[TheCarp]

Well as a closed system maybe but, if your "society" is being propped up via funding and arms, and you have no need to actually produce anything yourself or even produce engineers at all, then it isn't as much of a problem.

That said, what would really make it tough for them is a lack of opposition. Their tactics tend to be very self defeating when the larger powers don't overreact and get drawn into conflict with them.

If we let them provoke us though, then they will likely feed off that and use our involvement to deflect criticism away from their own otherwise self-defeating brutality.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[i kan reed]

I don't know. Violent anti-intellectualism has a tendency to create shitty, miserable societies, but has more than enough historical precedent at lasting at least a few generations at some points in some societies' histories. Ancient China had bouts of it, so did Rome, and neither crashed as a direct result.

(It's obvious and you don't need to point out that ancient societies aren't modern societies, and the requirements for both are different). I'm just contesting the universality of the specific claim "A society that doesn't allow math won't last long."

Re: they will defeat themselves

[O('_')O_Bush]

"Won't last long"

On the decades to hundreds of years scale, sure. Their policy will probably work for their (short) foreseeable future.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[BravoZuluM]

I'd love to let them have the run of things for a while, except they insist on flying planes into our buildings and beheading children. No, I think the only option is to go in and kill every last one of them, like the vermin infestation that they are.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Shortguy881]

Oddly enough, everything you said also applies to the United States.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Scottingham]

For every one you kill two will take their place. Your philosophy breeds terrorism instead of extinguishing it.

How has that approach been working out for Israel? Thought so.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[mrchaotica]

if your "society" is being propped up via funding and arms, and you have no need to actually produce anything yourself or even produce engineers at all, then it isn't as much of a problem.

Math isn't just used by engineers; it's also needed to operate pretty much any business -- even low-tech ones. Even a damn goat-herder needs to be able to multiply, assuming he wants to be able to sell X goats for $Y each, and end up with the correct number of $ afterwards!

Re:they will defeat themselves

[mrchaotica]

...these 12th century throw backs!

You might want to re-think that characterization, since these ISIS fools are pretty much the polar opposite of 12th century Arabs! In fact, they're much more similar to medieval Europeans, or modern Republicans.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[PvtVoid]

For every one you kill two will take their place. Your philosophy breeds terrorism instead of extinguishing it.

Which is a total win-win:

- We'll have a thriving Defense Industry in the US, and lots of corporate fat-cats will get rich.
- We'll have lots of military employment opportunities for young impoverished rural Americans. The ones that survive can be shunted off into sub-standard medical and psychiatric care, and will end up homeless or dead in a cost-effective way.
- We'll make sure the corrupt, dissolute fucktards in charge of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and Kuwait are so scared of the creations of their own madrassas that they don't dare interrupt our oil supply.
- There will be a cheap and easy path to election for bigoted, paranoid demagogues to get elected with rancid Islamophobic propaganda.

I mean, what's not to like?

Re:they will defeat themselves

[JasonGoatcher]

Actually, that's wrong. There's a difference between having faith in the actual God and pushing an agenda that you want God to support.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Unfortunately, His worshippers like to attach labels to Him that aren't warranted.

Re: they will defeat themselves

[Sarius64]

I can tell you haven't been to Europe lately.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[TubeSteak]

I'd love to let them have the run of things for a while, except they insist on flying planes into our buildings and beheading children.

With that logic, we should go to war with our ally Saudi Arabia as well.
Saudi nationals have flown more planes into buildings than ISIS.
The Saudi Government has beheaded more people than ISIS.
(Though ISIS seems to be trying to catch up)

No, I think the only option is to go in and kill every last one of them, like the vermin infestation that they are.

The language of dehumanization is ugly.
I'm glad that Western governments have abandoned it as a propaganda tool.
I can only hope that some of the less evolved citizens of the West will abandon it as well.

Re: they will defeat themselves

[klek]

Hey! Let's just ignore history, colonization, the ongoing impacts of the RC Church, and the niggling fact of who developed guns first.
Also, "third world countries" have plenty of culture, they are just not listening to Vivaldi and sipping tea with their pinkies extended.

Careful, your entitlement, ignorance, and racism are showing...

Re: they will defeat themselves

[mjtaylor24601]

"asylum seekers"

You mean, greedy Third World swine with nothing to contribute, who think that they're "entitled" to live in a rich country because Whitey is rich and they are poor?

As opposed to the greedy First World swine with nothing to contribute who think they're "entitled" to live in a rich country because of who's uterus they happened to be expelled from?

Aren't sweeping generalizations fun!

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between having faith in the actual God and pushing an agenda that you want God to support.

Hear hear! It's like I'm always telling others, Ares has his own agenda, completely separate from whatever agendas you wish to push in His name.

Ares is the actual God to which you were referring, yes? I mean, it's completely obvious to me that He is the one and only God, but since others seem to have different ideas about just who or what God is, I just wanted to make absolutely certain you too were referring to the actual God (and are not simply falling prey to that which you are speaking out against).

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Archangel Michael]

You underestimate the power of radical ideologies. While what they appear to be doing is self defeating, it really isn't. It draws in those people who need an identity. People said similar things about Nazi's (yeah I just Godwined the conversation). The one thing Nazi's had, that ISIS doesn't is government. But in today's age, being nebulous, decentralized is an asset, like Hydra (cut off one head two more takes its place). We killed off OBL, but he wasn't really running things when we did, and Taliban and Al Qaeda still remain. And even if they didn't, the people in those organizations just change their name, and regroup. This is the same tactic used by most counter culture politics.

The only effective tactic we have at this time is to target and kill the leadership, until the organization crumbles from lack of leaders. We don't need a standing army to do this, just Letters of Marque.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Oddly enough, everything you said also applies to the United States.

No kidding.

Some US states are more or less doing this now ... what with passing laws which say "science" education must include a discussion that Intelligent Design is actual science, and that sex education must be abstinence only.

America has just as much of a problem of religious idiots trying to define reality as ISIS does.

The difference being, Americans like to think they're better than everybody else, and one of your major political parties is also involved.

So, it's your choice between totalitarian idiots, or democratically elected totalitarian idiots.

Make no mistake about it, America is descending into the exact same kind of crap, and if you don't fix it, in a few decades you'll be really fucked.

Drooling fucking morons.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Princeofcups]

That obviously can't happen because they've ignorantly shunned the sciences, but it could take a whole 'nother generation or two before that lack of knowledge really takes its toll (if they're left unchecked in the meantime).

No silly rabbit. The people they rule are not allowed to have any learning. This is nothing more than a return to society a couple hundred years ago. The leaders will still have "western style" educations. That's how they stay in control.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[SuricouRaven]

They are playing a rather dangerous game. Remember that the US or Europe could squish them with ease, militarily - if we had to, it wouldn't be hard to nuke the whole region. There are only two reasons this isn't being done: It'd be expensive, and it's mean very large numbers of civilian deaths which would be politically problematic. This situation persists only because they aren't a major threat: The moment they actually become a danger to the continued existance of the US or any major European power they'd be crushed without regard to how much it costs or how many people would die. Remember that as recently as WWII even the allies - the 'good guys' - considered carpet-bombing cities to be perfectly justifiable. During the cold war the US has missiles poised to kill tens of millions at a moment's notice, if they ever needed to.

ISIS can only survive so long as they are powerful enough to dominate the region, but not powerful enough to invoke an unrestrained defensive action from the western powers. Like North Korea: The crazed dictator can brag all he wants about his military supremacy, but he doesn't have it, and that makes him too expensive to invade. if NK ever managed to actually detonate a nuclear bomb even China wouldn't hestitate to march in and take over. I think they'd be glad of the excuse, really.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[itzly]

All you need to take over Europe are enough wombs.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Grishnakh]

Is arming locals really that bad an idea though? Our problem in the past was that we picked religious zealots as our allies and armed them, while ignoring the not-so-religious ones we could have supported. Here with ISIS, we could arm the Kurds and support them; the Kurds are not terribly religious (not too different from your typical Sunday Christians here in the US), and are willing to fight ISIS, but we don't want to support them too much because we don't want them demanding their own state, because that works against our interest in keeping the region destabilized. If we stopped working towards keeping the region unstable, and instead helped out groups like the Kurds who want independence, which would make the whole region far more stable, groups like ISIS would die out.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference alright, but it's irrelevant. If you dedicate a big portion of your time to faith instead of science, your science won't be good. The christian societies have had their quarrels with science, but in the end a lot of science was done nevertheless. Muslim societies used to be at the forefront of science and technology. Giving that up has made them dependent, not just because they are more easily dominated, but also because they lack the knowledge to control their own fate.

The battle against science is always on, everywhere. When science loses, things go down the drain really fast. Fundamentalist Christianity isn't just a nuisance. Things like teaching creationism are severe threats to this society. The pursuit of knowledge is essential.

Re: they will defeat themselves

[benjfowler]

The last time people from 'rich' countries moved en masse to 'poor' countries, it was decried as colonialism, and rightly so.

(I suppose the fact that Western colonies full of actual Westerners thrive everywhere they go is awfully inconvenient for the 'blame-white-people-first' crowd. Contrast the Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nigerian, Turkish, Moroccan colonies in Europe, which are invariably dysfunctional and dirt-poor, despite massive amounts of welfare spending.)

Re:they will defeat themselves

[amicusNYCL]

No, I think the only option is to go in and kill every last one of them, like the vermin infestation that they are.

Congratulations, you thought of the same strategy as them.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[CheshireDragon]

Apparently you don't know what happened in the Arabic world back in the 1100s. They were amazing with math and science. Leaders of the world in that matter. Then came a long Al Ghazali and turned all of that on its head. Now look at the Arabic world. Still looks like they live in the 12th century.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Scottingham]

Calling Palestine Israel's neighbor is like calling the inmates in the prison down the road my neighbors. Palestinians are in a walled-in open-air jail. Israel certainly can and do make sure they are the more powerful of the two.

Re:they will defeat themselves

[Kjella]

I think you need to distinguish between terrorism and reign of terror. Hit-and-run bombings like the IRA or ETA rarely succeed in people giving in to terror. Taking actual control of areas, waving the flags and killing off all that oppose you has a much better historical record, ask anyone from Pol Pot to Hitler and Lenin and Mao. In case you haven't noticed, they're using their brutal savagery primarily to quell resistance and internal dissent. The story they're selling is that they're too fucking crazy to pick a fight with and so far they seem more than willing to put that reputation to the test and post it on YouTube.

I mean, would you like to be in a resistance movement inside IS territory? Do they care that they can't find you? Heck no, they'll just round up a few civilians and shoot them in retaliation for your sabotage/assassination/sedition. Far more civilized occupants have used that tactic, all those millions of people they control are in practice hostages. You're fighting an enemy willing to overreact to any provocation, give them a push and you won't get a shove back they'll beat you to a bloody pulp. And given their history so far, I don't think they have a problem with human shields. You can not excise them without massive civilian casualties. Sadly I give them much better odds than you predict.

Anti-math and anti-science ...

[damn_registrars]

... sounds like the GOP in the US.

Yeah, I know that slashdot's overwhelming conservative majority will mod this comment down into oblivion in retaliation, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Re:Anti-math and anti-science ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because it's fundamentally the same thing which motivates both: Religious Fundamentalism.

Let us not forget that there's nothing inherent to either Christianity or Islam when it comes to fundamentalism. Christianity generated the Crusades, after all...

Re:Anti-math and anti-science ...

[i kan reed]

1. As a liberal-as-fuck liberalite, libby lib, there is no malevolent conservative slashdot majority. This exists in your head and in your head alone. I post my totally correct liberal positions all the time, and only get modded down when I overly challenge people on specific subjects like misogyny.
2. While anti-intellectualism is a hallmark of the modern republican party, don't they don't even remotely compare in severity to paramilitary mostly uneducated third world anti-intellectuals.
3. Whether you're modded down or not, your statement is untrue on its own merits.

Re: Anti-math and anti-science ...

[Fwipp]

Slashdot isn't conservative so much as it is libertarian. Which is basically conservatism that wants to maintain the quo socially, (except with fewer rules for them to follow, because freedom) instead of returning to the 1950's. Which is why you still see the misogynists and racists pop out on any thread that mentions women or anyone who's not white.

They share tenets with conservatives, mostly financially, but hate the way mainstream conservatives act (on account of GOP hypocrisy and their regressive social values).

Re:Anti-math and anti-science ...

[operagost]

The problem with your oversimplification is that the holy book of Christianity encourages pacifism, while the holy book of Islam encourages the subjugation of unbelievers.

Re: Anti-math and anti-science ...

[halivar]

Libertarians often take the same positions conservatives do, but are much more dogmatic about it, which is why libertarians hate conservatives so much, whom they see as unprincipled. I, myself, dislike dogmatic philosophies, so some might call me a RINO or something. Yes, I generally want smaller government; no, I don't want to shut down the police or fire department. So, I figure I can be a pariah to at least 80% of Slashdot readership.

Re:Anti-math and anti-science ...

[cyberchondriac]

Finally, somebody gets it. I'm so sick and tired of hearing people bring up the Crusades as though the Muslims/Moors that swept through the mideast and southern Europe did it with an olive branch, and were poor, peaceful victims. Funny how the history there always seems to begin at the year 1095, and ignores the previous 400 years of islamic conquest.

Re:Anti-math and anti-science ...

[dskoll]

No, Islam is fundamentally different from other religions. It's a fascist ideology whose goal is world domination; read any of the Islamic writings to see Islams attitude towards non-Muslims. This fascist ideology is cloaked in religion in order to call those who criticize it bigoted.

US is next?

[guruevi]

This is what happens when you let the religious right run a country. Doesn't matter whether they're Islamic, Christian or something else.

Re:US is next?

[meta-monkey]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Muhammad was a military leader and a statesman, and the Koran basically dictates how every aspect of society should operate. Christianity had the benefit of being an outsider religion that eschewed direct temporal power. "Render unto Caesar..." The authors of the New Testament went out of their way to make it clear they were just talking about Jewish religion stuff and posed no threat to the Roman rulers so as to avoid persecution. It is this separation of authority that allows for open thought and independent inquiry. This is why science and democracy were (re)born in western nations. Neither the Islamo-statists nor the god-kings of the far east allowed for dissent or independent thought.

Most all early scientists or natural philosophers were Christians. But the Christianity they practiced is very different from modern Christian fundamentalism. Christian fundamentalism is a recent invention of the United States.

Of course they do

[Lucas123]

When people learn critical thinking skills, they tend to automatically dismiss ignorant, hate-centered dogmas.

Re:Of course they do

[u38cg]

So why are so many terrorists engineers?

Re:Of course they do

[Anonymous Coward]

You can call yourself an engineer if you want to, that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean you actually use critical thinking skills in all aspects of life. After all, even the dumbest person can have a skill they excel at, but that doesn't mean they think critically about anything else.

Besides that, one can still dismiss hate-filled dogmas while acting as though they do not in order to survive, or to gain a self-centered advantage. That's also part of thinking critically; it doesn't make you a good person or a person who can openly dismiss hate-filled dogmas if you're living under one.

Re:Actually against Islam

[gnasher719]

Isis is violating a good amount of Islamic teachings with this ban.

Considering that they are not Muslims but f***ing bastards, that doesn't come unexpected. I mean they are so bad that Al'Quaeda calls them barbaric.

Cue the Bozos

[CohibaVancouver]

Cue the bozos, who, due to Slashdot hivemind, are now required to post "So, exactly like the USA!"

...and no, I'm not American.

Re:Cue the Bozos

[CohibaVancouver]

The problem is that when the Bozos say that the USA is as bad as (or worse than) North Korea or a region suffering under ISIS or the Taliban, you belittle the suffering that those people are genuinely experiencing.

Could the USA do better? Absolutely, much, much better - But don't insult some teacher or blogger living in fear of torture or death in Syria by suggesting some teacher or blogger at West Beverly High is her peer.

I've never understood this...

[tekrat]

They don't want the kids to learn science or even mention things like evolution... Is their religion on such shaky grounds that it can't stand up to some critical thinking?

Why not then have chemistry class where two potentially explosive chemicals are mixed and the teacher tells the students "Don't worry, if your heart is pure and Allah is with you, it will not explode!"

As Dr. Tyson says -- science is true whether you believe it or not. The explosion will happen no matter what you think of Allah.

Allah doesn't protect *anyone* from a bomb or a bullet. So, what exactly is the point of learning about him/it, instead of learning math, which is actually a useful subject?

The moment you ban teaching something, it's usually because it's pretty easy to prove what bullshit your particular religion is, whether it be Christian or Muslim.

Texas Republicans don't seem to be any better, BTW.

and won't be allowed to last long

[jd.schmidt]

Many people in the mid east are actually pretty proud of their history in math and put a high value in it. ISIS is in on the way out already if they try this, if not every parent, MANY parents will now see ISIS for how backwards they really are.

I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

It's so much EASIER than THINKING!

Re:I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[Shortguy881]

If I understand your comment correctly, you just want the thought behind my statement.

First in regards to:

Well as a closed system maybe but, if your "society" is being propped up via funding and arms, and you have no need to actually produce anything yourself or even produce engineers at all, then it isn't as much of a problem.

The US spends over half a trillion dollars on the DOD a year. For decades, we have moved away from producing goods to a service providing nation. Granted, this is starting to improve a bit but it's nothing to celebrate, yet.

That said, what would really make it tough for them is a lack of opposition. Their tactics tend to be very self defeating when the larger powers don't overreact and get drawn into conflict with them.

If we let them provoke us though, then they will likely feed off that and use our involvement to deflect criticism away from their own otherwise self-defeating brutality.

The US government has been doing this for decades as well. Every few years we find a new enemy, rally cry and release the hounds of war.

If you want me to do all the work for you and provide specific examples of the above, let me know. There are many.

Re:I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[lgw]

For decades, we have moved away from producing goods to a service providing nation. Granted, this is starting to improve a bit but it's nothing to celebrate, yet.

The manufacturing capacity of the US has never dropped decade-over-decade. The manufacturing jobs are all gone, never coming back, but automated manufacturing has been replacing people gradually over the years. Because the economy has grown so much since WWII (recent extended downturn non-withstanding), we've also exported a lot of manufacturing (now coming back as the robots keep getting better), and grown into a primarily service-oriented economy, on top of that consistent manufacturing capability.

The US government has been doing this for decades as well. Every few years we find a new enemy, rally cry and release the hounds of war.

Like most nations in history since the first clan grew large enough to be considered a nation? It's worth remembering that almost every historical nation that doesn't exist today was conquered. The appearance of strength is all-important to continued peace. We've certainly made our share of mistakes as a nation, but there is a legitimate reason to project force around the world even though we're not interested in conquest ourselves: deterrence is morally better than fighting and winning.

Re:I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[Shortguy881]

In 1953 the percentage of GDP from manufacturing was 28%. In 2012 it was at 12%. I'd call that a drop.

In the last decade we have sent troops into Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Iraq. What real threat do any of these nations pose? Additionally, the way those conflicts unfolded wont be a deterrent to anyone. Besides, most of those conflicts are a result of us getting involved there previously. One of the best example of our meddling is what we did to Germany after WWI. It wasn't entirely the US' doing but we definitely played a part. Ultimately "those who do not learn from there mistakes are doomed to repeat them."

Re:I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[lgw]

In 1953 the percentage of GDP from manufacturing was 28%. In 2012 it was at 12%. I'd call that a drop.

Were you really confused by this, or are you just trolling now?
In 1953 US GDP was ~$2.5 T in 2009 dollars. Today it's ~$16T in 2009 dollars.

Can you see now that US manufacturing has grown significantly? The rest of the economy just grew faster, shifting our focus over the years. Much the same happened with farming before that. Technology is neat that way.

What real threat do any of these nations pose?

Again, appearance of strength is important. People who are a threat seeing the US as weak and starting a war would be a catastrophe from any moral perspective. We do get judged, like it or not, by whether minor player can shake their fists at us without consequence. Was is a surprise to you that Russia is getting froggy again (occasionally hopping across its borders) over the past decade?

Geopolitics aside, some would say that a strong man who sees a horrific crime that he has the strength to stop has the moral responsibility to do so. ISIS has conquered territory by force of arms - do we want to allow that sort of thing to be acceptable on the world stage again? The way ISIS is treating their conquered subjects is horrific and appalling, and we should probably put a stop to it.

Re:I LOVE READING PROPAGANDA

[toejam13]

Geopolitics aside, some would say that a strong man who sees a horrific crime that he has the strength to stop has the moral responsibility to do so. ISIS has conquered territory by force of arms - do we want to allow that sort of thing to be acceptable on the world stage again? The way ISIS is treating their conquered subjects is horrific and appalling, and we should probably put a stop to it.

Some would also suggest that the current instability within the Near and Middle East is the result of European colonial powers drawing national borders in such a way to cause instability and invoke inter-racial and inter-religious tension.

Perhaps the better solution is to withdraw from the area and let the regional powers work the issue themselves. If that means a century of warfare, not unlike what Europe experienced after the Protestant Reformation, then so be it.

Sure, such a conflict would result in a spike in the price of oil. But last time oil went above $160/bbl, we saw factories in North America being brought out of mothball, a renewed interest in alternative fuels (methane, nuclear, solar, wind), higher urban growth, an increase in the use of transit and a decrease in the use of petroleum derived fertilizers. Our economy and environment actually benefit in many ways when oil gets expensive.

Texas must be pissed...

[francisco3308]

They actually get to implement, what Texas wishes they could implement... sadly..

The fact we are even making these jokes about a state's curriculum is sad to say the least.

What is sad, or funny depending how you look at it, is how many people in states like Texas want anti science curriculum yet people love all the benefits of science... See that shiny new Iphone/Android device in your hand... that is science..

Re:Cartoon villians

[DocSavage64109]

When your choices are to either join them and get your own kidnapped sex slave, or don't join them and get shot, the choice is rather easy. Actually, after reading about the hundreds of people they have shot, there seem to be a lot of people in Iraq with a lot of integrity.

Ironic, isn't it

[sgunhouse]

The name Algebra originally comes from Arabic, and likewise we owe the number zero to them. Fact is, they taught us the math of the ancient Greeks. And now they don't want it?

Re:Why math?

[Opportunist]

Because ISIS doesn't give half a shit more about the Koran than the average politician over here does about the Bible. It's a tool to keep them in power and keep the sheep following them.

Why do you think people in the Middle East would be different from people in other parts of the world?

Early islamic society did well in math/science

[Anonymous Coward]

No, a society without science or with a strong dominance of faith over science is doomed. That's basically what happened to the Islamic world, albeit less drastically.

That depends on the faith. Some faiths, including some islamic believers, believe that science explains the mechanics of God's universe, and that the holy books only explain God's motivations and intentions.The former the "how", the later the "why", two mutually exclusive areas. You might note that early islamic society did quite well in math and science. Their scientific legacy is quite prominent in modern math and science.

Don't confuse the more ancient tribal and pagan customs and beliefs of the people in the region with islam. The former is often falsely attributed to islam. Islam, like christianity, did not completely displace nor eradicate some of the old tribal/pagan stuff. Some, but not all, of the crazier stuff comes from the tribal/pagan days.

That's dumb

[davidwr]

You need math to aim your artillery.