Slashdot Mirror


New Study Projects World Population of 11B by 2100

vinces99 (2792707) writes Using modern statistical tools, a new study led by the University of Washington and the United Nations finds that world population is likely to keep growing throughout the 21st century. The number of people on Earth is likely to reach 11 billion by 2100, the study concludes, about 2 billion higher than widely cited previous estimates. The paper published online Sept. 18 in the journal Science includes the most up-to-date numbers for future world population, and describes a new method for creating such estimates. "The consensus over the past 20 years or so was that world population, which is currently around 7 billion, would go up to 9 billion and level off or probably decline," said corresponding author Adrian Raftery, a UW professor of statistics and of sociology. ... The paper explains the most recent United Nations population data released in July. This is the first U.N. population report to use modern statistics, known as Bayesian statistics, that combines all available information to generate better predictions.

Most of the anticipated growth is in Africa, where population is projected to quadruple from around 1 billion today to 4 billion by the end of the century. The main reason is that birth rates in sub-Saharan Africa have not been going down as fast as had been expected. There is an 80 percent chance that the population in Africa at the end of the century will be between 3.5 billion and 5.1 billion people.

326 comments

  1. Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ebola or some other virus doesn't wipe out a third of the world population.

    1. Re:Provided by genner · · Score: 1

      Maybe not the worlds population.......but since the article seems mostly interested in Africa's growth.....

    2. Re:Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thomas Malthus? I did not expect you to be posting as an AC.

    3. Re:Provided by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 4, Informative

      You forgot to check 'Post Anonymously'. Don't you just hate it when that happens?

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    4. Re:Provided by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Says the man who claims not to be Nine Volt. ;^)

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    5. Re:Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No I think you'll find he really is happy to just be that retarded publicly.

    6. Re:Provided by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure I am NineVolt, but I lost the credentials to the account. In places where my usual handle is taken, I go by the obnoxiously long-winded NoImNotNineVolt instead of the considerably less creative NineVolt2.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    7. Re:Provided by MiniMike · · Score: 2

      Why not just use TenVolt?

      Then when you lose the credentials to that, your name can go to ElevenVolt.

    8. Re:Provided by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

      The 9V battery has a special place in my heart. And on my tongue.

      In the mid 90s, I was an avid player of the electric guitar. My interest in hard rock, metal, grunge, punk, and other genres led me to purchase a variety of effects pedals of the stompbox variety (and eventually a multi-FX device, but that's not relevant here). Most such pedals were powered by 9V batteries, and so I always had a bunch of these 9V batteries scattered around. Well, there's something that differentiates a 9V battery from most other common batteries: both terminals are on the same side of the battery, and the voltage between them is sufficient to cause a mild current to flow across a tongue when pressed against them.

      So that's around the time I became a regular on Undernet. I was like "... Nickname? I don't have a nickname! Well, hmm..."

      You see, I don't really play guitar anymore, because I realized that I don't have that flavor of creativity. It should've been obvious to me even then, just from the fact that I chose my handle based on the first thing that came to mind, which was the first thing I saw when I looked away from the CRT. NineVolt. And so the name stuck.

      Moral of the story: go lick a 9V battery.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    9. Re:Provided by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, those plagues in the middle ages sure prevented Europe from becoming densely populated...

    10. Re: Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you had braces as a kid, put terminals across top and lower braces; runs current through the brain stem.

    11. Re: Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm thinking more like 11million survivors scavaging for food and clean water by 2100.

    12. Re:Provided by penguinoid · · Score: 2

      Famine, Plague, and even War have been on the decline for years, despite what modern media coverage would have you believe. There's plenty of room for our growth, if we don't mind killing off a bit more of the remaining habitat of other species.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    13. Re:Provided by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      I once daisychained about 100 nine volt batteries out of the discard bin at work. They weren't fresh batteries but they all still had a plenty of charge in them. 900 volts with a few amps of instantaneous current capability is rather terrifying.

      Don't lick it. Don't even get too close.

    14. Re:Provided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what you are reading, but we are already seeing the toll of our current population levels in terms of depletion of resources like food sources and potable water. The planet cannot sustain another 4B people on it. Either we can correct our population growth proactively (where we get to choose how it happens) or environmental issues will do it for us retroactively (in a manner that few are likely to enjoy).

    15. Re:Provided by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Historically: After every event which has put a sizeable dent in the population (war, famine, plague, etc), the population has not only recovered quickly, it has substantially exceeded the previous level within 2 generations.

      The natural response to a sudden decrease in population is an increase in birthrates and always has been.

      Ebola will make things worse, not better.

    16. Re:Provided by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Self-followup....

      Environmental scientists I know all say the only way to reduce the population (and birthrate) is to make people better off.

  2. No, It Won't by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The number of people on Earth is likely to reach 11 billion by 2100

    Nope; before then we'll have a good solid pandemic, or war, or famine, or hey - maybe all three! That will make a significant dent in the existing population.

    At least, one could hope :)

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    1. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The number of people on Earth is likely to reach 11 billion by 2100

      Nope; before then we'll have a good solid pandemic, or war, or famine, or hey - maybe all three! That will make a significant dent in the existing population.

      At least, one could hope :)

      And why would you hope for such a disastrous event when there still exists the unknown of natural sustainability with 11 billion people?

      As crazy as that sounds, we're not exactly sleeping on top of each other stacked 15 high these days. You might have a point with food supplies and resources, if we were not constantly being accused of wasting so much food feeding an nation of obese gluttons.

      Take the greed of the 1% down a few notches, and sustainability might be far easier than previously thought without tactics like disease or bloodshed thinning the herd.

    2. Re:No, It Won't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      We already have had a few pandemics. The Great Plague, the influenza pandemic, and lately we've been lucky that modern techniques have allowed us to keep ahead of the bugs. However, we're already hitting the wall in terms of drug effectiveness, we're already running into shortages of water and that's only going to get worse, and our "green revolution" (where we could feed more and more people with fewer and fewer farmers) is running into problems as well - high energy inputs of fuel and fertilizer, crop monocultures ripe for the picking (pardon the pun) to disease and insects, the uncertainty of weather (the farmer who sees their field unable to produce because of either drought or too much water or hail or a tornado doesn't give a crap if you call it climate change or global warming or whatever - their crop is gone either way)).

      The only way we can reach 11 billion for 2100 is if we start making soylent green out of people when they reach 30.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:No, It Won't by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      especially since their saying africa is what throws estimates off. news for them, population will not outgrow food and water supply. looking at 2nd derivative of population grow is better tool, we'll reach 8.5 billion around 2075 and then decline. problem solved.

    4. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Reproducing at the rates third world countries "enjoy" is also extremely greedy.

    5. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well Washington, DC is working hard on your second item.

    6. Re:No, It Won't by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Take the greed of the 1% down a few notches, and sustainability might be far easier than previously thought without tactics like disease or bloodshed thinning the herd.

      How do you accomplish the former without the latter?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    7. Re:No, It Won't by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 0, Troll

      All problems of mankind are man made.
      Water is in abundance, we only manage it badly.
      The planet can easy feed 100 billions, we have space for so many people and the food is easy grown.
      The idea that food only growth with fertilizers that need lots of energy to produce is nonsense, a myth spread by the current 'status quo' ... 20% to 40% of the food grown in western countries is: thrown away. For what ever reason.

      The only way we can reach 11 billion for 2100 is if we start making soylent green out of people when they reach 30.
      Do you really want to eat the 'meat' of a 30 year old sinew male, not to mention he likely is black or yellow, eek! The average cow is a year or two old :)
      And considering the pollution levels, a 30 year old human is likely not really save to consume.

      The problem of the world are political factions, not really food production or population.

      But I agree, with a few more billion hard core christians or muslims we wont come far.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:No, It Won't by JWW · · Score: 3, Informative

      The irony is that you can only really accomplish the needed sustainability if you do NOT try to accomplish the former.

      Communism and to a lesser extent Socialism always attack the rich and promise the spoils to "the people". In the end the people always end up with nearly nothing (see Venezuela).

      Whereas that evil vile capitalism has only ever just pulled millions upon millions of people out of poverty, worldwide, over the past 60 years.

    9. Re:No, It Won't by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Capitalism's score is an easy billion lifted out of poverty (trillion for you eurotrash).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    10. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Don't get overexcited about your 1%. If Earth's population was 70 million, not 7,000 million, those 70 million could pollute all they wanted and they would not put significant strain on resources of this planet. Now, 100x as much, and suddenly every fart can tip the scale.

      People have bred themselves out of this planet's comfort zone and all the talk we hear is "OMG! Japanese population will shrink! OMG! China's population will also eventually shrink a bit! Don't they think about economy! There must be more consumers to consume!". And that's from politicians.

      So sustainability? Bullshit. For as long as there a buck to be made, and another Farmville seed to be sold to some idiot, everyone will want more idiots to consume consume consume.

      We are no where near sustainability. No where fucking close. Maybe if there was only 1% of the people left, with 99 out of a 100 dead, maybe then we can talk about sustainability. Until then, all we'll get is more Darfur type conflicts until (maybe?) the lucky few can get off this planet.

    11. Re:No, It Won't by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      You might have a point with food supplies and resources, if we were not constantly being accused of wasting so much food feeding an nation of obese gluttons.

      Assuming, just for the sake of argument, that every single American were living on 5000 calories per day. They aren't, but let's assume an extreme case.

      Let's further assume that every single American could manage nicely on 1200 calories per day. They can't, but let's be extreme again.

      In that case (large overestimate of food used, similarly extreme underestimate of food needed), we'd be able to feed approximately 1B more people on the food we "waste".

      Which is 25% of the expected growth....

      Take the greed of the 1% down a few notches

      Note that the income of the 1%, if distributed evenly among the 99% would represent only about a 14% pay raise across the board. The wealth of the 1% would nearly double the wealth of the average American, if uniformly distributed.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    12. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, surely the failure of socialism was not mostly due to tyrannical leaders, harsh economic and political sanctions, and outright aggression from other countries. Who runs the show now? And why would they have a problem with being undermined by revolutionary ideology?

    13. Re:No, It Won't by lgw · · Score: 1

      We could easily feed 11 million today - modern farming is really quite efficient. No miracle new technology needed.

      Water is a problem mostly in older large cities that have been wantonly drawing down local aquifers faster than they naturally refill. But since that's not the only way to get water, it's just a matter if infrastructure cost, not of some miracle new technology.

      However - Africa's population quadrupling is really going to suck, as in most areas the technology that makes high population density easy in the West just isn't there. 86 years is a long time, though, time for plenty of economic development. And that not only makes it practical to support higher populations, it reliably winds up with people having fewer kids.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    14. Re:No, It Won't by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      especially given China's 1-child policy, and human nature.

      the Chinese youth are divided 2:1 in favour of males, and the young females that survived the 1-child policy aren't too interested in being breeding machines, they're more interested in careers and independence. So the Chinese population will continue to grow, but at a slower rate, and then I imagine there will be a mass push for immigration to China when the old population dies off and there's no-one to replace them.

      Africa.. they say the population there will grow a lot, and I imagine a fair bit of that will be true - some African countries are quite rich, so they can afford to import food from the rest of the world, including Europe that happily overproduced during the 80s (remember the butter mountains and wine lakes?) but also they might just get their act together and get a decent crop from the very fertile areas, Zimbabwe might be a basket case today but they were very productive when the "white man" owned and managed the farms. Once the nutters go, they could be productive again.

    15. Re:No, It Won't by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Truly you think that if Kim Kardasian lived in a smaller house and didn't jet set around that sustainability would be easier?

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    16. Re:No, It Won't by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      (remember the butter mountains and wine lakes?)

      No;

      Pics or it didn't happen.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    17. Re:No, It Won't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      We could easily feed 11 million today

      I sure hope so :-)

      But we cannot easily feed 11 billion today. We're hitting the limits of fresh-water availability. Desalination is a solution in SimCity, but the real world is more complicated. And if we DID manage to get to 11 billion, that doesn't fix things, since we'll then be having people predicting the population growing to 20 billion by the end of the 22nd century.

      And while economic development might wind up with individual families having fewer kids, that doesn't mean total population goes down. To the contrary, total population goes UP. Just look at the population growth in the last 100 years. We've gone from 1.8 billion to 7 billion. Additionally, with rising per capita demands for more energy-intensive food (meat instead of grain, etc) and more economic participation, the footprint of every individual is greater, so that 7 billion is having a lot more than 4x the impact of 1.8 billion 100 years ago.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    18. Re:No, It Won't by cnaumann · · Score: 1

      Note that the income of the 1%, if distributed evenly among the 99% would represent only about a 14% pay raise across the board. The wealth of the 1% would nearly double the wealth of the average American, if uniformly distributed.

      Claiming that redistribution would double the average wealth is not quite right. The upper 1% control about 30% of the wealth. Redistributing this would make everyone else 30% richer on the average. Doesn't sound like much, does it?

      Let's put numbers on that. There is about $120T in total wealth in the US. The upper 1% control about 30% of this, or about $36T. The population of the US is about 310M. That comes out to a redistributed wealth of about $120,000 per person, or about $360,000 for a family of three. So basically you are talking about a house, free and clear in a moderately high end market for every family in the US.

    19. Re:No, It Won't by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      Google will tell you all you need to know.

      It was mainly due to the EUs agricultural subsidies. Farmers wee paid to grow all kinds of excess food, safe in the knowledge that the government would buy it, regardless of quality or quantity. So they did, and no-one could eat it all.

      Net result: masses of unused foodstuffs. They distilled the wine into ethanol IIRC, much butter was sent to African famine reliefs.

      http://www.ecpa.eu/information...

      An increasingly complex system of quotas and support prices was set up, with further crops included as the European Community expanded. This basic system led to the infamous "butter mountains" and "wine lakes" of the 1980s, with farmers being paid to produce goods for which there was no market and which were then bought up for intervention storage and later sale at (lower) global market prices.

      Additional instruments such as quotas for milk and other produce were introduced to limit production. "Set aside" was another innovation, with farmers being paid to keep a certain percentage of their land out of production

      It got to the crazy state where you could be a farmer and get paid a lot for *not* growing crops. There was a joke at the time for an application form where the applicant promised not to buy any land and not to farm any pigs in return for a large subsidy.

      http://www.express.co.uk/news/...

    20. Re:No, It Won't by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      I've done research in the past, and concluded that if all of the money (when I say money, I mean all of the cash, and bank accounts from all countries, not an estimated value of property and such, converted into American dollars. It came to $630,000,000,000,000) on the planet was distributed evenly between all of the people on the planet (This was a few years ago, but I think the population I used was 7billion), each person would have about $9,000.

      I could be off a good bit regarding the total money count converted into American dollars, this is an estimate, but per person it'd probably only mean a few hundred dollars each. Either way, it really puts into perspective the difference between the 1% and the rest of us (us = world population). There are so many poor people in the world that live off of around $5 a day.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    21. Re:No, It Won't by BringsApples · · Score: 2

      All problems of mankind are man made.

      Nailed it. So the more people, the more problems.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    22. Re:No, It Won't by Beeftopia · · Score: 2

      As "crony capitalism" grows, the oligarchy is once again ascendant.

    23. Re:No, It Won't by ewibble · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If third world countries become richer the should have less children, so 2 birds with one obese stone.

    24. Re:No, It Won't by buddyglass · · Score: 1

      Arguably not when a large (poor) African family consumes fewer resources than a small (rich) family elsewhere.

    25. Re:No, It Won't by ewibble · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are countries that are socialist, (e.g. Nordic countries) compared to the US and doing quite well, better based on quality of life measures.

      Don't get me wrong capitalism as severed the world well, it has increase its production capability nicely, but times have changed, we have reached a point where we are now not struggling to survive, on the contrary our excesses are now killing us, we are now simply consuming for the sake of consuming, there is no reason our economic system shouldn't change to meet our current needs.

      The world is not black and white, and not even shades of gray. There is no need either one or the other, you can be in between, their may also be other alternatives, we can throw in the mix as well. If we limit our thinking to Capitalism vs Communism we limit the possible solutions we can come up with.

    26. Re:No, It Won't by JasonGoatcher · · Score: 0

      If I'm not mistaken, poor people have kids so there's someone to care for them when they get old. So maybe the best solution for overpopulation is finding a way to guarantee that the elderly are cared for. the Japanese are working on robot care for the elderly and there's tons of other artifical intelligence projects being developed to do various things. Maybe that's the solution.

    27. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "Nordics" are not socialist. They are capitalist to the core. They just have fair policies for taking care of those who truly cannot care for themselves.

    28. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whereas that evil vile capitalism has only ever just pulled millions upon millions of people out of poverty, worldwide, over the past 60 years.

      I suppose you could always do a "No true Scotsman..!" But I'm really not quite sure what you're referring to (or how you got modded to +5).

      For example, Indonesia (4th largest country in the world by population) had been aggressively capitalist (to the point of doing purges where suspected communists were killed outright) since Suharto came to power in the 1960s. But Indonesia isn't exactly an economic miracle. You could try to blame religion for that one (Indonesia being predominantly Muslim). But then there's the Philippines next door (predominantly Christian) which isn't really doing any better. Or take India (second largest country by population). India isn't particularly communist but they're not exactly a raging success story either.

      I mean, yes, there are some obvious examples of "communist" dictatorships (e.g. North Korea) that haven't worked out well for their general population, to put it mildly. But there are plenty of cases where "capitalism" hasn't worked out so well for the general population either(e.g. Indonesia).

      Of course, you can do the no-true-Scotsman thing and claim that all the "capitalist" failures weren't true capitalism. Or you could claim that the socialist successes (Scandinavia, New Zealand, and to a lesser extent Europe) aren't true socialism. But, generally speaking, I'm not really seeing compelling evidence that capitalism is any better than socialism at reducing poverty.

    29. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take the greed of the 1% down a few notches

      Note that the income of the 1%, if distributed evenly among the 99% would represent only about a 14% pay raise across the board. The wealth of the 1% would nearly double the wealth of the average American, if uniformly distributed.

      Simply focusing on redistributing the income/wealth/etc is missing the larger point. There's a huge amount of work that needs doing in the world and big problems that need solving. But most people in the world have very very low economic productivity because of lack of access to education and other factors of production. It's like the world is all stuck together in one big rowboat but only a few people actually have oars to row with and many can't even reach the sides paddle with their hands. We need to get everyone in the world an oar, so to speak. At the end of the day, the total amount we can consume economically is limited by the total amount that we produce economically. A world where everyone in the world had the same level of economic productivity as in the most successful countries today (e.g. Scandinavia and Switzerland) would be a truly wonderful place.

    30. Re:No, It Won't by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Arguably not when a large (poor) African family consumes fewer resources than a small (rich) family elsewhere.

      One of the interesting things about food is that no matter how rich or how poor you are you can only consume so much food.
      Not for sure the exact range but everyone probably falls within a fairly narrow range of about 1000-5000 calories. Anything
      outside of that range and you'll quickly die. Obviously beef consumes more corn than eating the corn directly and a huge
      SUV probably consumes more ethanol than eating beef so a small rich family does consume more overall resources but when
      it comes to just food the large poor family consumes alot more food. In times of overpopulation we could easily cut out the
      beef and ethanol and have plenty of food to feed the world's population but it's doubtful that that would actually happen.

    31. Re:No, It Won't by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Poor people don't have kids so there's someone to care for them when they get old. That "middle generation" always ends up with more than enough problems just taking care of themselves and their own kids. Plus, given the historically high infant mortality rate in the areas we're talking about, conventional thinking is you need more than "a heir and a spare" to actually HAVE a heir and a spare.

      Robot care for the elderly is not a solution when there's not enough resources to FEED everyone, or clean water for everyone - and we're already past any realistic sustainability point.

      All the virtual pizzas and hamburgers won't fill a single real-world stomach.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    32. Re:No, It Won't by dryeo · · Score: 1

      So about the population of communist China.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    33. Re:No, It Won't by khallow · · Score: 1

      Take the greed of the 1% down a few notches, and sustainability might be far easier than previously thought without tactics like disease or bloodshed thinning the herd.

      It's not the 1% who are making all those people.

    34. Re:No, It Won't by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Ignoring how communism enabled Russia to go from feudal to space fairing in less then 60 years while making huge sacrifices to win WWII and suffering from totally nutty authoritarian dictators (is there any examples of really successful capitalistic dictatorships?), perhaps the biggest thing it did was make the capitalists share the wealth with the average worker so they didn't get killed in a socialist revolution.
      Things were pretty bad under pure capitalism (think Dickinson England) with the exception of areas where land and resources were freely available to the common person for the cost of a bit of genocide.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    35. Re:No, It Won't by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Assuming, just for the sake of argument, that every single American were living on 5000 calories per day. They aren't, but let's assume an extreme case.

      Let's further assume that every single American could manage nicely on 1200 calories per day. They can't, but let's be extreme again.

      In that case (large overestimate of food used, similarly extreme underestimate of food needed), we'd be able to feed approximately 1B more people on the food we "waste".

      Which is 25% of the expected growth....

      You're forgetting that all calories are not equal. American's consume a lot of corn in the form of beef and ethanol. If you include
      the amount of corn required to make all the chicken, beef, and ethanol and also add in all the calories that could be grown instead
      of tobacco, cotton, etc... then it's possible that the average american consumes considerably more than 5000 "equivalent" calories.

      Note that the income of the 1%, if distributed evenly among the 99% would represent only about a 14% pay raise across the board. The wealth of the 1% would nearly double the wealth of the average American, if uniformly distributed.

      I think it was rockafeller that when asked by a reporter why he didn't distribute his wealth to the poor that he reached in
      his pocket and gave the reporter 3 cents and said "here's your share of my wealth". The 1% are extremely rich but you're
      right, evenly distributed across the remaining 99% doesn't really help much.

    36. Re:No, It Won't by donscarletti · · Score: 1

      The Chinese youth are divided 2:1 in favour of males, and the young females that survived the 1-child policy aren't too interested in being breeding machines, they're more interested in careers and independence.

      The Chinese youth are divided 1.1:1 in favor of males. Given Chinese women demand the man they marry already own a house, regardless of their own desirability, this number will just reduce the number of spinsters (or "leftover women" as they are called). It's getting nowhere close to where it would have to be that an eligible bachelor today would be unable to find a wife in the next generation.

      Chinese women also have the advantage that they can have a baby at 26, then go back to work fulltime while her parents or her in-laws care for it. A career does not influence fertility in China like it does in the west. Chinese career women are just as mindful of reproduction as any other, not to mention the fact that they will be nagged by family until they have a baby, but absolved from having to do anything but play with her child when she feels like it, after the baby is weaned or even can drink cow milk, so it seems an easy choice.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    37. Re:No, It Won't by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Throw in the food waste, I forget the figures but there is an amazing amount of food wasted between what people don't eat, what is wasted between farm and consumer and what the farmer wastes. Then throw in the inefficient crops including those that don't even go for food but rather things like ethanol at an energy loss and then eliminate cows from the food chain, some chickens, goats, pigs, or sheep are way more efficient resource wise then a cow and possibly we're up to feeding all those 4 billion, especially if similar things were done world wide, especially the wastage caused by warlords

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    38. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those countries also derive a large portion of their taxes through Value Added Tax, which has the same regressive effects as a sales tax that we see in low percentages in various jurisdictions across the states. "Regressive taxes are the devil!" is the mantra of the American liberal. But they're quick to point to such countries as "so much better in their quality of life, we must adopt their socialist programs."

      Well, libs, you can't have it both ways. Figure it the fuck out.

    39. Re:No, It Won't by Kabukiwookie · · Score: 1

      A large part of the issues that countries like Venezuala (and Cuba) are having is that their internal stability is constantly being fueled by US foreign policy.

      Cuba is actually doing fairly well now despite having had a boycott imposed for the last 50 years.

      --
      The mountains of madness have many little plateaus of sanity - Terry Pratchett.
    40. Re:No, It Won't by Kabukiwookie · · Score: 1

      Bugger.. that should be 'instability'.... need to stop commenting on Friday evenings...

      --
      The mountains of madness have many little plateaus of sanity - Terry Pratchett.
    41. Re:No, It Won't by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      The rate of extreme poverty in China rate fell to 12% in 2010. Guess how much it was in 1981, when they had real socialism? The kind of socialism where people went to prison for being right-wingers. 84%.

      It's funny how you call for a truce and say neither is right...when socialism insists that it is 100% right all the time, and is not joking.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    42. Re:No, It Won't by Boronx · · Score: 1

      "One of the interesting things about food is that no matter how rich or how poor you are you can only consume so much food."

      Incorrect. Acquiring and destroying food is not the same as eating food.

      '

    43. Re:No, It Won't by Boronx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is socialist. You do not understand that capitalism and socialism are not opposites.

    44. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow - can I have whatever you're smoking?

      The middle class in the US has been steadily declining for some time now. I suppose if one were standing on one's head when reading the charts it might look like its going up... There have been plenty of studies warning that the US is going in a bad direction with respect to the distribution of wealth, a declining middle class and median incomes that look like they did 20 years ago...

    45. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just express it as a power of ten if you're trying to avoid ambiguity.

    46. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism's score is an easy billion lifted out of poverty (trillion for you eurotrash).

      A trillion is more than a billion. There will never be a trillion people in either scale.

    47. Re:No, It Won't by dargaud · · Score: 1

      capitalism as severed the world well

      There are so many different ways to interpret those two (?) typos...

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    48. Re:No, It Won't by dave420 · · Score: 1

      If you buy a shit-load of food and waste most of it, clearly your "interesting thing" is clearly untrue. The amount of food wasted in the west is ridiculous.

    49. Re:No, It Won't by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Because that's the only difference between then and now. Gotcha. Brilliant. Wow you're clever.

    50. Re:No, It Won't by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      That ration might be valid overall, or with old statistics but when used for young people, its skewed quite dramatically in favour of males.

      I saw a documentary about it on TV (so it must be true :-) ). this one was mainly concerned with the chinese dating scene and online websites etc.

      I may have got the ratio wrong, more like 12:10, or :2 in the worst areas.

      In the early 1980s there were 108 male births to every 100 female, only slightly above the natural rate; by 2000 that had soared to 120 males, and in some provinces, such as Anhui, Jiangxi and Shaanxi, to more than 130. The result is that more than 35 million women are "missing". Though China is not the only country affected â" India's situation is similar â" it has by far the widest gap; its one-child policy has exacerbated the problem.

      http://www.theguardian.com/wor...

    51. Re:No, It Won't by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      I can assure you that VAT is NOT considered a good method of taxation by socialists, since as you say it is a regressive tax.

      Its use is compulsory in EU countries, but you make it sound as though it is something invented by the left out of contrariness or stupidity.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    52. Re:No, It Won't by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      If you buy a shit-load of food and waste most of it, clearly your "interesting thing" is clearly untrue. The amount of food wasted in the west is ridiculous.

      Waste most of it? Who does that? It could get wasted in the supply chain before it gets to my house but with a family of four, I doubt
      I throw away more than 500 calories a week and there is no way that I come close to throwing away more calories than we eat.
      The estimates I see are generally a 25-30% waste which isn't even close to "most of it" and even alot of that "waste" is in the
      supply chain and isn't truly wasted but is instead feed to livestock or otherwise salvaged.

    53. Re:No, It Won't by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Which is not that far from what the US does with its social programs. US would be a socialist country if not for the huge leech that is the healthcare industry and other vampires preying on the US people (prison-security complex, etc.)

    54. Re:No, It Won't by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What? And miss a chance to troll the eurotrash?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    55. Re:No, It Won't by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      1 trillion dollars is 1000 billion dollars. But 1 trillion euros is 1000 million euros.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    56. Re:No, It Won't by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Not sure what the population of China was back then. The Chinese certainly owe a lot to capitalism. So would the Indians if they ever got the hang of it. But that would allow the bramen to fail, so it can't be allowed.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    57. Re:No, It Won't by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      ... if we start making soylent green out of people when they reach 30.

      I love it - "Soylent Green" crossed with "Logan's Run".

      Renew! Renew! Become Soylent, too!

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    58. Re:No, It Won't by lgw · · Score: 1

      We can trivially feed 11 billion today. The farmland once used in America alone could do it (though that would be a bad approach for many reasons).

      Your ideas about nutrition are way off. Calories are key to survival, and meat is not where you get calories, carbs are. Meat is a tasty luxury that requires more farmland per meal than eating vegetarian.

      Fresh-water availability, as I already said, is only an issue in large cities that insist on drawing down their aquifers (well, and a few low-population areas with regular drought). Cities tap their aquifers only because it's cheap compared to proper sewage reprocessing. No magic technology required, just infrastructure spending. There are very few big cities that actually lack the surface water (e.g., Dubai), but they have desalination already. Wikipedia has some notes on the plants currently under construction and operating around the world. Again, it's not high-tech, as long as you're on the coast.

      nd while economic development might wind up with individual families having fewer kids, that doesn't mean total population goes down

      Native-born net population change is either negative or barely positive in every industrialized nation. Many places with high barriers to immigration are in population collapse right now (e.g., Japan). America is only growing due to immigration. It's a common pattern, well, researched and well understood. People have enough kids such that enough survive to help them in old age. Pre-industrialization, that's 10 or more. Post-industrialization that's 2-3, or fewer once a good retirement safety net is in place. There's a one-generation blip seen in most places during industrialization when people are still having 10 kids, but all of them survive to adulthood, so population explodes.

      The news that population was expected to peak at 11 billion is at least 10 years old - not sure why it's a /. story, but we do like old news here.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    59. Re:No, It Won't by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The US has a primarily capitalist economy, and certainly wouldn't be socialist even if some of modern capitalism's worst excesses were eliminated.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    60. Re:No, It Won't by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You could compare the progress under communist dictatorship to progress under Peter the Great. Both were strong top-down pushes for modernization in a very backward country, and both had big effects on Russia's economic progress. However, I don't think Peter was a Communist.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    61. Re:No, It Won't by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Could the US feed the world?

      IIRC, feeding plants to cows to get beef is about 10% efficient, so let's assume that each of about 300 million Americans is eating effectively ten times as much as is needed. Then, the US could feed about three billion people, or less than half the population.

      Water availability is not just a matter of cities. California has some farmland that is very productive, except that it requires considerably more water than it actually gets.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    62. Re:No, It Won't by dryeo · · Score: 1

      No argument there, just arguing that the idea that capitalism always results in progress and communism never does.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    63. Re:No, It Won't by lgw · · Score: 1

      Forest coverage of America has grown quite a bit over the past 50 years because so much farmland - most of it, in fact - has been abandoned as unneeded to feed us, or to saturate the export market. By far the majority of arable land is no longer cultivated, out of lack of need, unless you count tree farms.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    64. Re: No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The minister of abundance and possibility:

      am I willing to maximize population potential?

    65. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nordic countries are socialist my ass.

      They're decidedly capitalist economies with a public welfare system, public single-payer healthcare and (I'm assuming) free public education. This has almost nothing to do with socialism.

    66. Re:No, It Won't by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Google will tell you all you need to know.

      Well, sure, but "let me go Google that" isn't nearly as fun to say.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    67. Re:No, It Won't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/table/dict/number.htm

  3. In before... by magsol · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...all the comments about "Bayesianism is better than Frequentism" or "Why didn't the authors use this Frequentist analysis?" start popping up. Not that I'm advocating for one over the other, just arguing that they're both tools that are often used for the same nail without realizing that you need to hold them slightly differently for them to actually work the way they're supposed to.

    I hope a carpentry analogy is acceptable in lieu of a car analogy.

    --
    "I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
    1. Re:In before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I hope a carpentry analogy is acceptable in lieu of a car analogy.

      you're giving me wood

    2. Re: In before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a carpet analogy?

    3. Re:In before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trust UW to hold the nail correctly, though. They're a powerhouse in statistical methods and computational biology right now. That this investigative team was involved adds some weight to the projections.

    4. Re:In before... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Can we quibble about the statistical method to use after we've settled the basic cause and effect relationships? Here's the retired TED talk: Religions and Babies.

      I think the title is supposed to be provocative but I find it has the opposite effect (two things young men don't want to talk about...) - it's really about assumptions underling the modeling of world population.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:In before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more annoyed that they decided to relabel bayesian statistics as `modern statistics'. I mean, really. Cutting edge research in both fields still happens, and for some things, one is better than the other. But Bayes doesn't always produce the best results, nor does frequentist perspectives, although most of the time they're interchangable.

  4. Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Vast areas of Earth remain unpopulated. In no particular order:

    • American Midwest
    • Most of Canada
    • Australia's Outback
    • Siberia
    • Sahara and other hot deserts
    • Antarctica — a whopping continent

    Sure, some of the above would require some work to make comfortable, but it can be done even with today's technology — by 2100 even an individual (or a family) would convert surroundings to their tastes. And it would certainly be easier, than moving an appreciable quantity of people off-Earth...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, those are too far away and hostile. Clearly, space is the answer.

    2. Re:Not a problem... by coldsalmon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I favor the solution of everyone on Earth living in one mega-city the size of Texas: http://joshblackman.com/blog/2...

    3. Re:Not a problem... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      Vast areas of Earth remain unpopulated. In no particular order:

      • American Midwest

      Uh, no, it's not, actually. In fact, as of the 2010 Census, the Midwestern states had higher combined populations than the Northwestern states.

      Belief vs reality.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:Not a problem... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Clearly, space is the answer.

      Preferably for people who want to turn America's farmland into some sprawling metropolis...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    5. Re:Not a problem... by rogoshen1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they're unpopulated for a reason. the logistics behind supporting any reasonable habitat for a dense population aren't so workable. namely water. mostly water. Which, according to the UN and a few other NGO's, will be sort of a big deal during this time frame.

    6. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main difference between Saskatchewan and Space is one is a dead, frozen void and the other requires rockets to get to

      HEY-OOOOH!

    7. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      Vast areas of Earth remain unpopulated.

      I don't think the concern is that there will not be enough for residential accomodations.

      I think the concern is that there will not be enough necessary resources. Arable land, potable water, things like that. Sure, we could put sustainable greenhouses in the places you list. We can improve water filtration and desalination technology to the point that we stay sufficiently wet. However, shit like that costs money, big money. At that point, we'd have a nice sustainable closed-loop system to live in, with no need for pillaging the Earth's easily accessible resources of yore.

      It starts to sound a lot like living off-Earth at that point, no?

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    8. Re:Not a problem... by neoritter · · Score: 1

      The American Midwest is far away and hostile?

    9. Re:Not a problem... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Unless you're an American, yes :-P

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    10. Re:Not a problem... by Xest · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That assumes that all those environments are pointless wastes of space, unfortunately that premise isn't true- those areas of land serve important purpose for example the sands of the Sahara blow across the Atlantic and fertilise the likes of the Amazon rainforest.

      A lot of people say "Why don't we geo-engineer the Sahara to make it tropical forest again!" but it becomes almost a zero-sum game, as you grow forests in Africa you decrease the fertilisation of the Amazon and so growth is stunted there in turn.

      We can only move into these territories (or even keep expanding in existing ones) if we can find a way to do so without impacting the underlying ecosystem, otherwise we find ourselves with a whole lot of people and not enough resources and you know what that generally means? war - winning side gets the resources.

      So it's not just about making an area habitable, or comfortable, it's about doing so in a manner that doesn't have a knock on effect elsewhere - by regrowing Africa into a tropical jungle paradise you'd be slowly pushing ever more of South America into a poor inhospitable desert. Similarly if you start inhabiting Siberia and Antarctica with more human activity resulting in greater melting of these regions you'll simply be flooding coastal regions elsewhere and making them uninhabitable.

      Long story short, you cannot make massive changes to large areas of land without there being an impact elsewhere. You can see this on many scales, whether it's the farmers that cleared the forests on the hills of South West England to give themselves more land for crops leading to widespread devastating flooding due to lack of trees to slow water down in the hills, or whether it's something much larger scale as with the Africa/Amazon connection above. For every sizeable environmental change we make there is an impact elsewhere.

      For what it's worth, I suspect the place we could most likely inhabit on land with the least impact elsewhere is in parts of the sea but even this would require a lot of care so as to restrict ocean pollution from waste which may damage fish stocks and decrease food. Failing that it's to space we go I guess.

      Which isn't to say that there aren't some areas of the planet we can inhabit with little impact elsewhere meaning there is some scope for population growth, but those areas are becoming ever less common and the effects of inhabiting them elsewhere are often subtle making it difficult to know when you have and haven't found a reasonable spot to settle more people. Thus fundamentally it's not simply a case of saying "Hey look that place isn't inhabited, let's inhabit it!" because in doing so you're causing destruction of environments elsewhere where people were inhabiting and now you have to find room for them too.

      Of course, I suspect none of it will matter- the rich will live where they desire to live and any knock on impact on anyone else? well they can go fuck themselves, because humans are an inherently selfish species.

    11. Re:Not a problem... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      I think both of you are using the wrong metric.

      I suspect that the population density in the Midwest is lower than the Northeast. More importantly, for most of the Midwest, population density has been falling for the past 100 years even though the population has been growing. If that makes you scratch your head, just realize that 80% of farm and small town children find farming and small town life to be boring and low pay. IIRC, population in South Dakota has been falling in all but 5 counties – the counties with big cities.

      Which leads me to my 2 points.

      First, the Midwest is not really that empty. The white man has already stolen all of the good land from the red man and has filled it up with farms. It might be sparsely populated, but the tractor has made it as productive as it can be. Adding more people won't help. Adding biotech and robots will. (And let's face it, a tractor that can drive itself is almost a robot even if there is a person in the cab.)

      Second, the issue is not space. We don't want to cramp people into the empty Midwest, we want to cram them into cities. Thanks to networking effects city folk tend to be more productive. Cities also tend to be more efficient users of resources. Of course managing megacities in more complex, involving strong social structures (i.e. rule of law, not corruption), sophistication (i.e. education), and dedicated citizens (i.e. democracy).

    12. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not to mention we still have the seas available. Kibbutz style outposts running on Aquaculture (Aquaponic, net barrier, or artificial reef), mining (both aqueous and sea floor), and manufacturing (temperature sinks from the deep ocean and easy access to tidal,wind, and geothermal power) could make a dent in that figure. something like 100 people living in each settlement, with 12x12 miles of seas surrounding it as their economic domain. that is over 100 million people even with such sparse settling. with full settlement and having a small city in each space, a billion people could be living on the seas. also, it would put an end to trawling and toxic waste dumping, as the locals will fight that tooth and nail.

      before going to space, lets fully utilize the hostile parts of this planet first.

    13. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 2

      Preferably for people who want to turn America's farmland into some sprawling metropolis...

      You blithering idiot! A blubbering fool! A nincompoop! Nobody is talking about your precious farmland (which produces far too much stuff anyway, but that's a separate story).

      I said Midwest. The Midwest, that is so bloody empty of anything (crops included), towns are offering free land to anybody willing to build a home. And still they can't attract enough people...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    14. Re:Not a problem... by halivar · · Score: 1

      No way, man. From the ruins of Baltimore to the nuclear wastes of upstate-NY... Mega-City 1.

    15. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Illinois. January and February are damn hostile.

    16. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 2

      Midwestern states had higher combined populations than the Northwestern states.

      You truly are a blithering nincompoop, aren't you? Can't tell the difference between population and population density ...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    17. Re:Not a problem... by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Why populate those areas? If you don't want population control you will need to warehouse people as efficiently as possible.

      Manufacturing can be done in highly concentrated locations (China is showing us how). Agriculture doesn't require very many people anymore, same with mining and forestry. Cities are the only way to deal with hoards of people.

      Plus you're still just kicking the can down the road a few decades. Eleven billion? What happens when that doubles in another few decades, then doubles again? It can't go on forever.

    18. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you also check census data, you will find that the land area for the Northeast (assuming that is what you meant) is about 162k sq. mi., while for the Midwestern region is about 751k sq. mi. (not counting water area). Despite having 20% more people, the population density is quarter in the Midwest than it is in the Northeast. The Northeast has the top 7 (and the 9th) most densely populated states in the US. The Midwest just has the 10th, four states in the teens or low 20s place, and another eight states in the bottom half of the list. The west has even more people, but half the population of the density of the midwest just because of how much land area it covers.

    19. Re:Not a problem... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Second, the issue is not space. We don't want to cramp people into the empty Midwest, we want to cram them into cities.

      Indeed: at least in the US, the problem might eventually be bulldozing the suburbs and returning them to farmland (and/or nature preserves, to maintain food webs).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    20. Re:Not a problem... by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      Sure, some of the above would require some work to make comfortable, but it can be done even with today's technology

      Yeah, with a 3d printer you can do ANYTHING.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    21. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 2

      Arable land, potable water, things like that.

      Land is plentiful, water is, indeed, needed to make it arable, but desalination is a solved problem — you just need electricity. And we can provide that even today in abundance with fission (nuclear plants) and will certainly be able to have it even better in the future with fusion.

      It starts to sound a lot like living off-Earth at that point, no?

      All of the problems you listed are several orders of (decimal) magnitude worse on other bodies of the Solar System. And the problem of inter-star travel has not been solved yet even in theory — nor even is it obvious, the solution will ever be found.

      We will, probably, colonize Mars some day, but the South Pole is much more comfortable for humans than any spot of the Red Planet. And the ping-times are much shorter...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    22. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll grant you "far away", as even though I live in the midwest, other parts of it are still far away.

      Hostile, no. I've never detected any hint of hostility from either the corn or the soybeans, despite the fact that we consistently harvest and eat their young.

    23. Re:Not a problem... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 0, Troll

      The sand of the Sahara does not fertilize anything.
      It is: sand.
      Hint: check on wikipedia what sand actually is.
      Another hint: your windows are made of sand, so are the chips in your computer, so are solar panels, the glasses of your glasses ...
      (* facepalm *)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    24. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The area of Michigan and Minnesota together is bigger than the whole Northeast, and there are a lot more states in the Midwest...

    25. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1
      Canada, Midwest, Siberia, and Antarctica do have plenty of water already. For the hot deserts there is desalination — all you need is electricity. In fact, looking at Israel's agriculture, one learns, that the hot deserts are great for crops-growing — if you manage to water them enough.

      And we can — with nuclear or fusion reactors...

      Quantity of people is not a problem — not now, not in 2100. Quality, on the other hand, has always been a problem...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    26. Re:Not a problem... by the_povinator · · Score: 1
      But those places are mostly not suitable for growing crops. What would people living there eat?

      It's not physical space that limits populations, but the availability of resources such as food and water.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    27. Re:Not a problem... by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2

      Fossil water aquifers are not perpetual, dolt.

    28. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1

      But those places are mostly not suitable for growing crops.

      False. Ample food can be grown in American Midwest as it is.

      And the hot deserts can also be turned around very nicely. Earth can easily grow a lot more food than it does. It would be nice to waste less of it too...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    29. Re:Not a problem... by the_povinator · · Score: 1
      Yes but that food is already being grown (and the water being overexploited), so settling people there would not add any new food.

      Would be nice for deserts to be un-desertified, but I'm not sure that can be done cost effectively just yet.

      Dan

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    30. Re:Not a problem... by ultranova · · Score: 2

      That assumes that all those environments are pointless wastes of space, unfortunately that premise isn't true- those areas of land serve important purpose for example the sands of the Sahara blow across the Atlantic and fertilise the likes of the Amazon rainforest.

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    31. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 0

      Land is plentiful, water is, indeed, needed to make it arable, but desalination is a solved problem — you just need electricity. And we can provide that even today in abundance with fission (nuclear plants) and will certainly be able to have it even better in the future with fusion.

      Somehow this sounds a little bit more expensive than just using existing arable land or existing potable water, something which we've been doing since the dawn of civilization. Dare I say, orders of (decimal) magnitude more expensive.

      All of the problems you listed are several orders of (decimal) magnitude worse on other bodies of the Solar System.

      Well, using nuclear power to desalinate seawater to irrigate nonarable land is also several orders of (decimal) magnitude worse than just having naturally arable land and clean water, but you don't seem to think that's an issue. Doing it in space is "only" several orders of magnitude worse still, so if the step to nuclear agriculture isn't so bad, the step from there to space shouldn't be any worse, right?

      And the problem of inter-star travel has not been solved yet even in theory — nor even is it obvious, the solution will ever be found.

      I refer you to Project Orion. This shit has been figured out since the 60s. The technical solution is nearly a half-century old. A half century. The political solution, on the other hand...

      We will, probably, colonize Mars some day, but the South Pole is much more comfortable for humans than any spot of the Red Planet. And the ping-times are much shorter...

      Ah, thank god, we won't have to deal with that dreaded latency. Because that is the main downside of the Malthusian catastrophe. Not the extreme costs of developing a sustainable closed-loop system that supports human life. Ping times.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    32. Re:Not a problem... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Why would you even want to do that?

      I can tell you why you don't want to - 'Most of Canada', 'Australia's Outback', Siberia, the Amazon (which you didn't mention) and the Tibetan Plateau (among other regions) serve as enormous ecological buffers. What do you think filters out all of the crap we're putting into it?

      We've done oh so well on the parts of the planet that do have significant human population densities. How do you think spreading this out over the rest of the world is going to work?

      And you're utopian statement of 'by 2100 even and individual could convert surroundings to their own tastes' is decidedly Star-Trekian. This individual and a Mr. Fusion, perhaps. This individual and a bunch of solar panels, not so much. Not such a bright idea to plan on rearranging the world using technologies that haven't been invented yet. Reality sucks sometimes, but it's reality.

      And you forgot all about 'ol Murphy.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    33. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bulldozing suburbs probably won't help. Most have already lost most of what makes farming possible, the several feet of good topsoil and the associated water distribution and drainage of the ground.

    34. Re:Not a problem... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Water source? Power source? Financial basis? I take it that you are bankrolling all of these poor folk from Sub Saharan Africa and / or India to move en masse to Peoria?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    35. Re:Not a problem... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Oh there you go again. More Mr. Fusions.....

      Come on back with your utopian schemes after you work out the messy little details.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    36. Re:Not a problem... by jafac · · Score: 1

      meanwhile, existing towns are running out of water.

      Oh well, I guess these people can just move.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    37. Re:Not a problem... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Cities also tend to be dirtier. They are dangerous with high amounts of crime. They discourage innovation as there is little room for building things. They have nosy neighbors who try to mandate what you can do in your own home.

    38. Re:Not a problem... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Informative

      Go facepalm yourself.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    39. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You blithering idiot! A blubbering fool! A nincompoop!
      >You truly are a blithering nincompoop, aren't you?


      Know how I can tell you feel either inadequate and try to make yourself feeling better by insulting strangers and/or have serious psychological and socialization problems?

    40. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1

      Yes but that food is already being grown

      What the fook are you talking about? Israelis grow food in their own desert. The same methods can be used in Sahara and all other "hot" deserts — including the giant Sinai peninsula, which remains bare and barren since its return to Egypt.

      It is possible and we know how to do it. We aren't doing it, but we can. And, should a compelling need arise, we will.

      (and the water being overexploited)

      There is no such thing.

      I'm not sure that can be done cost effectively just yet.

      It does not need to be done today. By 2100 we will be able to.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    41. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever visit Kansas with a "Darwin Fish" on your bumper?

    42. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1

      Why would you even want to do that?

      Because I want more fellow human beings to exist. More artists, more scientists, more outright geniuses. Sure, more thieves too, but criminals affect the same share of population, whereas a single brilliant scientist may invent FTL travel or cure cancer for all...

      But my wants are a moot point — the population will rise whether or not I (or you) want it, according to TFA.

      What do you think filters out all of the crap we're putting into it?

      Why do you hate humanity?

      This individual and a Mr. Fusion, perhaps.

      Mr. Fission — Mr. Fusion's older brother — would do just fine, thank you very much.

      Not such a bright idea to plan on rearranging the world

      I'm not planning on anything. I'm not even talking about rearranging the world — only the regions, Man may decide to populate when his technology allows.

      The "rearranging" will not be any worse — nor seem any more "Star-Trekian" — than damming rivers or dredging waterways.

      And you forgot all about 'ol Murphy.

      He's always been with us, but we've grown in numbers anyway and are hardly starving today.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    43. Re:Not a problem... by the_povinator · · Score: 1
      I referred to the drawing down of aquifers.

      It's true, my comments envisaged conventional farming, not the methods the Israelis use with poly-tunnels. So in the long run, your point is true.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    44. Re:Not a problem... by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      Midwestern states had higher combined populations than the Northwestern states.

      You truly are a blithering nincompoop, aren't you? Can't tell the difference between population and population density ...

      Irony: calling the American Midwest "unpopulated", yet calling someone else (who points out that the Midwest is not, in fact, unpopulated) a "blithering nincompoop."

      The word you may have meant to use is underpopulated. I know language is complicated, but despite sharing several letters, "un" and "under" do not, in fact, mean the same thing.

      Sincerely - One of the tens of millions of people who live in the Midwest.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    45. Re:Not a problem... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      We can debate if cities have higher crime or not. People in cities tend to live longer lives - at least in developed countries. So I am not sure what to make of your dirtier and dangerous point.

      On innovation you are dead wrong. On almost every metric that I can think of - number of patents filed, research papers published, holders of advanced degrees, number of new business – on a per capita basis – cities do better than rural areas, and Big cities do better than medium sized cities.

      As for having neighbors – you are correct - you can't blast death metal at 3 a.m. That is a point for rural areas.

    46. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As if space, and not resource availability (of which space is just one of many), is the limiting factor for sustainable population.

    47. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, it's like nobody ever picked up stakes and moved across the country to a region without water, power, and a bank before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Acts)...

      Seriously, do it old school... Live on a piece of land and improve it.

      Modern path to farming prosperity:
      Get a loan to open a farm (business case is pretty straightforward, farms are generally profitable), drill a well, put up some solar panels, use them to irrigate, homestead the property.

      Note - about 50% of american single family farms operate at positive cash basis... Didn't say it was easy.

    48. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find this interesting. My experience has been exactly the opposite.
      In small towns people leave junker cars in their front yards.
      The cities I have lived in rarely had such messes - I'm sure just as dirty but no more dirty.

      I've had more stuff stolen in medium size towns than in large cities.

      The most innovative places have always been cities because they have to find ways to deal with all the people, differences, and limited room.

      People in small towns are always trying to pass laws restricting what I can do in my bedroom.
      In big cities no one cares what anyone does in his or her bedroom.

      Your experience has been the exact opposite of mine.

    49. Re:Not a problem... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "(and the water being overexploited)

      There is no such thing."

      Yes, there is. Using more water at a rate then aquifers can be refilled is one example.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    50. Re:Not a problem... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Another hint: your windows are made of sand, so are the chips in your computer, so are solar panels, the glasses of your glasses ..."
      no, they aren't. You might want to look it up.

      The Sahara isn't a desert because of sand.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    51. Re:Not a problem... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      An untested theory, with almost most no supported tech even discussed is not ' Figured out'.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    52. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1

      meanwhile, existing towns are running out of water.

      For the umpteenth time: desalination is a solved problem. There is no reason — other than incompetence of irrational fears of nuclear power — for any coastal city to lack water in the 21st century.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    53. Re:Not a problem... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      Sincerely - One of the tens of people who live in the Midwest.

      TFTFY :-)

    54. Re:Not a problem... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I think both of you are using the wrong metric.

      Yea, but I bet only one of us did it knowingly and intentionally :)

      We don't want to cramp people into the empty Midwest, we want to cram them into cities

      We do that naturally. That's why the people who live in the rural Midwest live in the rural Midwest, and people who live in New York City live in New York City.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    55. Re:Not a problem... by swb · · Score: 1

      I thought the one with the population density of Houston was more interesting as it implies a more livable density than Manhattan. A slight reduction in density might allow for grow-local kind of agriculture, too.

      There might be actual incentives to encouraging the development of a megacity. The energy savings in transportation would be huge and there's probably a lot of other economies of scale to be gained. If other populated areas became equally less dense the environment might improve.

      The downside is that all big cities have a gross aspect to them, especially poorer ones.

    56. Re:Not a problem... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "They are dangerous with high amounts of crime. "
      not really.

      "They discourage innovation"
        false.
      More innovation happen becasue there is more communication.

      " little room for building things"
      depends on the city. Cities created to support manufacturing usually have a lot of ware housing, and older building; both of which are perfect for start ups.

      " They have nosy neighbors who try to mandate what you can do in your own home."
      when the byproduct of what you do leaves your walls, then they have every right to do that, and visa versa.
      There are also nosy neighbors in the suburbs.

      I'm no against suburbs. In fact, I love the suburbs, and hate living in cities.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    57. Re:Not a problem... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      It's not really extraordinary, but here you go:
      http://earthobservatory.nasa.g...

      parts of the world relate to each other? who would have thought?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    58. Re:Not a problem... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Except that doesn't actually seem to matter.
      People in the most godforsaken areas of the planet, well past their carrying capacity, continue to have children like it's going out of style.

      If you claim "people can't live in that dense a space because there's not enough water" I'd point to the Sahel.

      --
      -Styopa
    59. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know language is complicated, but despite sharing several letters

      Yeah, so complicated that some people don't understand hyperbole when the meaning is otherwise quite clear to people and is being used as a rhetorical device.

      The Midwest is virtually unpopulated, enough that the word "virtually" can be implied... someone else who lives in the Midwest.

    60. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by 2100 even an individual (or a family) would convert surroundings to their taste

      2100 is less than 100 years away. You're showing signs of flying car syndrome.

    61. Re:Not a problem... by khallow · · Score: 2

      but it becomes almost a zero-sum game

      No, it doesn't. Just because there is a disadvantage to a choice, doesn't mean that it is "almost" zero sum. You still have to consider the advantages.

      Of course, I suspect none of it will matter- the rich will live where they desire to live and any knock on impact on anyone else? well they can go fuck themselves, because humans are an inherently selfish species.

      What species would not be a selfish species in your sense? And this overpopulation problem isn't being caused by the rich. It's being caused by the teeming masses of non-rich.

    62. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone but me I hope.

    63. Re:Not a problem... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Water evaporates. Then it falls back dow to the ground as fresh water.

      Granted, probably not in quantities needed to support large urban populations, but we've solved most of the communications problems that necessitated people all crowding into little chunks of land called cities.

      Wwhat we really need is to put all the politicians and urban planners (and the telephone sanitizers, I suppose) into a big arena with lots of weapons and little food and water. Let them figure it out in a real setting, away from their comfortable armchairs.

      Kids now watch the Hunger Games to find their heroes. The big urban centers can FOAD.

    64. Re:Not a problem... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      It is, for people who 80 years ago would have been watching Buck Rodgers. The problem is that tomorrow never, ever, happens. You can be a dreamer, and probably not the only one, but you're still just mumbling old Lennon (Lenin?) lyrics.

    65. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That assumes that all those environments are pointless wastes of space, unfortunately that premise isn't true- those areas of land serve important purpose for example the sands of the Sahara blow across the Atlantic and fertilise the likes of the Amazon rainforest.

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_dust

    66. Re: Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If geoengineering the Sahara is on the table, why is geoengineering the Amazon not also?

    67. Re:Not a problem... by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Similarly if you start inhabiting Siberia and Antarctica with more human activity resulting in greater melting of these regions you'll simply be flooding coastal regions elsewhere and making them uninhabitable.

      But think of the savings in air conditioning costs. It's a huge win-win.

      Florida shouldn't be populated by anybody but the alligators anyway.

    68. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what they're considering the unpopulated areas, they're fairly conservative politically, so for /. considerations... absolutely!

    69. Re:Not a problem... by readin · · Score: 1

      Vast areas of Earth remain unpopulated. In no particular order:

      • American Midwest
      • Most of Canada
      • Australia's Outback
      • Siberia
      • Sahara and other hot deserts
      • Antarctica — a whopping continent

      Sure, some of the above would require some work to make comfortable, but it can be done even with today's technology — by 2100 even an individual (or a family) would convert surroundings to their tastes. And it would certainly be easier, than moving an appreciable quantity of people off-Earth...

      I spent quite a bit of time in the American midwest. It is hardly unpopulated. And if it were any more populated than it already is, where would we get our food from?

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    70. Re:Not a problem... by readin · · Score: 1

      We can debate if cities have higher crime or not. People in cities tend to live longer lives - at least in developed countries. So I am not sure what to make of your dirtier and dangerous point.

      Go to a city and sniff. You can smell how dirty they are. I was in NY (Manhattan) a while back and the smell of trash was quite common even in areas that seemed to be quite nice and expensive.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    71. Re:Not a problem... by readin · · Score: 1

      That assumes that all those environments are pointless wastes of space, unfortunately that premise isn't true- those areas of land serve important purpose for example the sands of the Sahara blow across the Atlantic and fertilise the likes of the Amazon rainforest.

      A lot of people say "Why don't we geo-engineer the Sahara to make it tropical forest again!" but it becomes almost a zero-sum game, as you grow forests in Africa you decrease the fertilisation of the Amazon and so growth is stunted there in turn.

      You're saying Saharan sand is good fertilizer? I wouldn't have though it was true, but if it is I have to wonder if it opens up an opportunity. We take sand from the Sahara to fertilize lands elsewhere - taking it all from one place to begin with. Once we've dug enough sand out to make an area below sea level, we can flood it with water from the Mediterranean Sea.

      Benefits:
      * More fertile land throughout the world
      * A new sea where fish can grow.
      * A way to slow or even reverse the rise of the oceans by putting the excess water in the new sea.

      Am I crazy? Why?

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    72. Re:Not a problem... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't think the problem is finding places for people to live, after all, we can build a tall building.

      The problem is getting enough food to feed everyone. No one really knows how much that is....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    73. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you meant "everyone else".

    74. Re:Not a problem... by Xest · · Score: 1

      "No, it doesn't. Just because there is a disadvantage to a choice, doesn't mean that it is "almost" zero sum. You still have to consider the advantages."

      Well if you manage to move a few million people to Antarctica and the resultant increase in sea level means a few million people have to leave coastal areas then yes, it is. I did clearly say (and suggested potential examples) there are indeed some areas you could probably get away with spreading the population to with much more minimal disadvantage.

      "What species would not be a selfish species in your sense?"

      Many colony based species are, such as ants and bees work for the interests of the colony rather than for the individual, though I'm not really sure what the relevance of the question is- the fact that other species are selfish doesn't change the fact that humans are also.

      "And this overpopulation problem isn't being caused by the rich. It's being caused by the teeming masses of non-rich."

      You're mixing cause and effect, increased birth rates are a symptom of poverty where the per-child survival rate is low, overpopulation is simply a symptom of a bigger problem, not the underlying problem itself. If you take those poor people that you deem responsible for overpopulation and place them in a place where there are crops and water aplenty like the UK then I assure you they will start seeing higher survival rates and lower death rates - the problem is the people who already inhabit these areas and have already prospered as a result keep it for themselves, but you know what? I'm not even judging that - it is natural instinct to look after your own precisely because as I say we are a particularly selfish species, but it absolutely is simply a statement of fact about what does and would happen. The wealthy in the world would still inhabit the most beneficial places, and the poor would still be forced to the places where there is no scope to prosper and would still continue to overproduce children as a survival mechanism as a result.

      I don't think it's worth arguing whether that's good, bad, or whose fault it is, or isn't, who is good, or bad, who is innocent or not - none of that really matters because it's just a description of the natural state of the human race and I'm not sure whether we could ever really do much to change that or not, but either way it also doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least recognise it for what it is.

    75. Re:Not a problem... by Xest · · Score: 1

      I suspect the biggest problem would be the cost and pollution of transporting it relative to other fertilisers that we can transport in a much more efficient manner, we can't really do what the Sahara does with it's mineral sands more efficiently than it already does it, though we can work more efficiently with other fertilisers. The Sahara though does a good job naturally, those global wind patterns do all the work for us with zero pollution.

      Given that it's probably worth taking a step back and realising that actually most of the farming that's done today already works on your plan albeit with, as I say, different fertilisers. Much of the world's crops grown today are only feasible to grow precisely because we already do use artificial fertilisers in agriculture across the globe so your plant is already being done in a roundabout way, it's just more efficient for us to do it in our own way outside of the Sahara and more efficient for the Sahara to do what it does by itself.

    76. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally find the Detroit megaslums more to my taste.

    77. Re:Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of Canada

      stay the fuck out of here, eh.

      -signed
      canada

    78. Re:Not a problem... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Why would you need nuclear or fusion reactors? If you want to desalinate water in or near a desert, the logical choice is something along the lines of solar-powered distillation under decreased atmospheric pressure.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    79. Re:Not a problem... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Not all cities are like NYC. The city I live in has lots of green scattered throughout, and smells rather delightful most of the time. I've lived in the countryside, and that can smell far worse than any city I've lived in, especially after they spread some muck. Ew.

    80. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      Which part is untested? Detonating nukes? Having the blast act on a metal plate? The simplicity of Project Orion seems obvious to me; what part is "no supported tech"? Dr. Dyson and the folks at General Atomics seemed quite convinced that this could have been done with 60s technology. Which point do you disagree with them on?

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    81. Re:Not a problem... by khallow · · Score: 2

      Well if you manage to move a few million people to Antarctica and the resultant increase in sea level means a few million people have to leave coastal areas then yes, it is.

      But that's not the case. There's nothing magical about living in Antarctica that would cause millions of people to lose their homes elsewhere.

      Many colony based species are, such as ants and bees work for the interests of the colony rather than for the individual

      No, those species are quite notorious for exhibiting behavior that strongly favors their own species at the expense of pretty much everything else aside from a few symbiotes. Even honeybees only help plants pollinate because they get in exchange food and building material (for their beehive wax).

    82. Re:Not a problem... by max99ted · · Score: 1

      how this comment hasn't been down-modded to oblivion is a mystery to me

      --

      Please stop APK.. you're only hurting yourself.

    83. Re:Not a problem... by Xest · · Score: 1

      "But that's not the case. There's nothing magical about living in Antarctica that would cause millions of people to lose their homes elsewhere."

      Of course there is, human activity generates heat, and heat melts ice. You can't melt ice in Antarctica and have it magically not increase sea levels, where do you think it goes? or do you think the ice in Antarctica is magical and immune to melt from heat? or that we can create a magical device that just vanishes every single bit of heat humans might generate? When that sea level rise happens there are many people living in coastal areas whose current homes would become flooded. You then have to find somewhere else for them to go.

      "No, those species are quite notorious for exhibiting behavior that strongly favors their own species at the expense of pretty much everything else aside from a few symbiotes."

      Ah, but now you're changing the parameters of the discussion to suit your argument- I wasn't talking about selfishness that benefits the species as a whole, I was clearly talking about selfishness of the individual making the point that individual humans will look after themselves over the rest of their species - this is why we even have things like racism in the first place.

    84. Re:Not a problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Strange. I live in the American Midwest, and I see lots of people around me. When I go for a drive in the countryside, I pass through a lot of farms and small towns. You'd think people actually lived here.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    85. Re:Not a problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The characteristic of most deserts is not that there's a lot of salt water, but that there's not a lot of water no matter what. Granted, there are deserts that run into oceans or seas, but there's a whole lot of desert terrain that isn't. The reason why they tend to get an unusual amount of solar power is that they don't get the clouds or precipitation. So, why would we want desert-based desalinization plants?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    86. Re:Not a problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You think Project Orion is the solution to interstellar travel? Look, guy, space is big. Mind-bogglingly big.. You may think it's a long way to the chemist's/drug store, but.... If we can get a spaceship going at three thousand kilometers/second, it'd take centuries to reach the nearest star. You may want to calculate how much energy it would take to get something going that fast, and consider the size of a self-contained habitat that will function for centuries.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    87. Re:Not a problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What part is untested? How about the whole thing? Theoretically, it's not that difficult. We won't know about practical difficulties until we actually try it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    88. Re:Not a problem... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Well, that's why I wrote "or near". I'm aware that it's not applicable to all desert sites. I was just wondering under what circumstances it might be advantageous to lay pipes from places where there is seawater to places where there is both a lot of sunlight for local solar distillation and local water users. There could be locations like that as well.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    89. Re:Not a problem... by mi · · Score: 1

      Somehow this sounds a little bit more expensive than just using existing arable land or existing potable water

      Of course. My post was meant for people, who'd claim, that "Earth can not sustain" such a big population — by listing the vast areas, where the new billions could live in comfort even if those existing parcels of arable land and sources of potable water were exhausted.

      I refer you to Project Orion

      The method could allow us to reach other star systems, but not practically — not within reasonable time. For that, we'd need faster-than-light travel and that is, what I had in mind.

      Because that [ping times -mi] is the main downside of the Malthusian catastrophe.

      It was a joke, relax...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    90. Re:Not a problem... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Of course there is, human activity generates heat, and heat melts ice.

      This is dumb. First, we have thousands of people already living in Antarctica and they aren't melting ice, especially enough ice to displace thousands of people.

      I was clearly talking about selfishness of the individual making the point that individual humans will look after themselves over the rest of their species - this is why we even have things like racism in the first place.

      That still makes it a dumb comment since your example was of colony-based insects who are notoriously colony-focused. They are far more racist than humans, viciously competing with even with their close kin in other colonies.

      It's pretty clear that you are blinded by your opinions and merely assume that approaches which you deem bad, like terraforming the Sahara are automatically bad and approaches you deem good, like moving a vast number of people to England (and overwhelming its infrastructure), are automatically good. The real world doesn't operate that way.

    91. Re:Not a problem... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Because most moderators have read the moderator guidelines: disagreeing with a post is no reason for down modding.
      Get a damn clue ... and furthermore: your post did not contribute anything to the discussion :D

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    92. Re:Not a problem... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      ROFL did you actually read the link you posted?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...
      Yes, the first few lines claim, it is a fertilizer.
      But when it comes to the specifics: "Mineral dust is mainly constituted of the oxides (SiO2, Al2O3, FeO, Fe2O3, CaO, and others) and carbonates (CaCO3, MgCO3) that constitute the Earth's crust." it is obvious: it is not a fertilizer.
      No idea why wikipedia writers insist on that or why 'dumb asses' like you ( muhuhua +4 informative) repeat that nonsense.
      A source of minerals? Perhaps. Fertilizers? Nope.
      Regions like the Amazonas are closed systems anyway ... except for smoke from forest fires not much escapes the system. So already the claim 'important fertilizers for e.g the Amazonas' region is nonsense in itself, regardless from where the fertilizers might come.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    93. Re:Not a problem... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Desalination is just kicking the can down one more generation. The problem is that the habitats that are pleasant to live in are not the ones with the actual resources, so people cluster in areas that are not meant to harbor tens of millions of people, let alone hundreds of millions or billions.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    94. Re:Not a problem... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Could be. I don't know about piping seawater around; the stuff is corrosive. It might be better to desalinate at the sea and pipe fresh water.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    95. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      No, it's not about what I think. It's about what Freeman Dyson thinks, since he's the one that actually did the math instead of talking about how mind-boggling the problem is.

      133 years to Alpha Centauri based on 1960s technology, topping out at 0.033c. Later studies have shown a maximum velocity in the 0.1c range is likely if thermonuclear bombs are used instead of fission bombs. That would get you to Alpha Centauri in 44 years, which is nowhere near the "centuries" you're claiming.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    96. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      The design of Project Orion is in many ways considerably simpler than today's chemical rockets. According to the people that actually worked on these studies, the only thing stopping us from building it is political opposition to anything nuclear.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    97. Re:Not a problem... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt that we could fit an arbitrarily large population of humans on Earth. Sustainably, even. You're correct in pointing out that even living on Antarctica or on the ocean floor would be cheaper and easier than living off-world. I was merely trying to point out that doing so would still be very costly; much, much more costly than doing things the old fashioned way. If extreme increase in cost is a valid argument against extraterrestrial colonization, it's only slightly less valid of an argument against Antarctic or deep-sea colonization. If we're going to experience a huge upheaval of the current social order (which seems inevitable if the cost of supporting the global population were to increase dramatically), we might as well get some security against a global catastrophe from the deal.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    98. Re:Not a problem... by Xest · · Score: 1

      Thousands of people isn't exactly a worthwhile population though is it? We're not talking about a few thousand people, we're talking about finding room for another 4 or 5 billion.

      "That still makes it a dumb comment since your example was of colony-based insects who are notoriously colony-focused. They are far more racist than humans, viciously competing with even with their close kin in other colonies."

      Oh dear, you realised you made a stupid comment and are one of those folks that would rather talk nonsense than back down? starting to declare species with colonies as racist? what kind of crack are you smoking? it must royally mess you up as it's apparently obliterated your ability to partake in a sensible adult conversation.

      The fact that you've extended to such absurdities tells me one thing - you realise you had no idea what you were on about, felt the need to vomit out your opinion anyway, and have now resorted not only to reframing the discussion but to also talking complete and utter nonsense. The only sane conclusion therefore is that you know full well my points were valid, and that you were stupid to try and argue against them with arguments that are completely and utterly stupid and nonsensical.

      So I shall walk away knowing that you had nothing worthwhile to challenge my points with, the absurdity you've descended to is perfectly ample evidence of that.

    99. Re:Not a problem... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Excessive water use in the Midwest, West, and central US have seriously drained the underground aquifers. In many areas you can't just dig a well to get water, you have to go much deeper. And even then it might be polluted thanks to our fracking craze.

    100. Re:Not a problem... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Water evaporates. Then it falls back dow to the ground as fresh water.

      Where it mostly goes into rivers and out into the sea. The underground reserviors take a long time to refill.

    101. Re:Not a problem... by khallow · · Score: 0

      Oh dear, you realised you made a stupid comment and are one of those folks that would rather talk nonsense than back down? starting to declare species with colonies as racist? what kind of crack are you smoking? it must royally mess you up as it's apparently obliterated your ability to partake in a sensible adult conversation.

      Let's recap what really happened. You claimed without justification that living on currently unoccupied land was going to be zero sum. You claimed, with apparently a complete ignorance of the entirety of nature, that humanity was a "selfish species". Finally, you blamed the rich, even though it is the poorest countries which have the continued population growth.

      And now you're declaring victory despite having yet to defend the above arguments.

      Well allow me to criticize your arguments a bit more. First, there is nothing magical about living in Antarctica that will melt enough ice to displace millions of people. Further, we don't even have to expand to exotic places like the Sahara, deep ocean, or Antarctica.

      It's worth noting here that the vast majority of heating (to several orders of magnitude) of the Earth caused by humans is estimated to be due to greenhouse gas emissions not the immediate heat release from human activities. So for example, less melting of Antarctic ice would happen from a bunch of nuclear plants (or other non-fossil fuel-based system) powering a city of a few million than from a corresponding city far away which uses coal power.

      A big part of that reason is that heat from the former is not cumulative (or perhaps that it has a very short half life in the environment) while CO2 is thought to be rather persistent. So days in the environment as opposed to decades. And in the former case, when the heat goes away, any water formed from melting would refreeze.

      Then we get to humanity's alleged unusual selfishness. Point to any other species which routinely takes it upon itself to help completely different species for reasons other than survival. Humanity is unique in that regard. Who else keeps pets? Zoos? Wilderness preserves? Instead, we see that humanity is unusually altruistic not unusually selfish.

      This extends to other people. The developed world takes in lots of people from elsewhere in the world. They can't keep up with the population growth of Africa and parts of Asia, but then again, why should they have to? Ultimately, the responsibility for curbing population growth rests with the people doing the reproduction.

      What you consider "selfish" behavior is simply inadequate resources in the face of a huge problem. The developing world would have to take in tens of millions of people each year just to keep the population of the rest of the world in balance. I believe the population of what is currently the developed world would double in a few decades, meaning that at least half of the developed world's population would be first generation immigrants from the developing world. I don't think that the existing societies and societal structures (like governments) could survive that.

      My view is that the poorest parts of the developing world have to change or there will be hundreds of millions to billions of deaths from overpopulation-driven die-offs at some point. But that is doable via the capitalist system that a lot of people here like to hate. Everyone in the world are already considerably better off than they were in 1950. It depends on whether the societies in these poor parts of the world rebuild themselves as societies with freedom and the rule or law, or not.

      Finally, concerning your rich-bashing, it's worth noting that there isn't any cause and effect between having a lot of rich people and having a lot of poor, high reproduction people. Societies will always have the more powerful, the more capable or productive, and the greedier. But what sort of wealth-accumulating behavior gets rewarded differs from society to society.

  5. Super-plagues et al. by Keruo · · Score: 1

    The article mentions it vaguely but I predict this growth will be limited more by major outbreak of some disease or diseases.
    Possibly some form of influenza or other nasty bug like airborne ebola should wipe medium portion of the population at some point in the future.
    Alternatively, or should I say additionally rising pollution levels at highly populated areas will cause health problems at increasing rate.

    --
    There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
  6. Simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe its time to stop shipping food aid to Africa. That and the lack of sanitation (Ebola anyone?) should keep the population down there. 11-3=8 billion.

  7. Zombies by digitalPhant0m · · Score: 1

    Oh boy, that'll make for a lot of zombies.

  8. Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just know that we will either wipe ourselves out with nukes or there will be an epidemic that will kill off a good bit of the population.

  9. Just like bacteria or virii by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

    The portion of the population which breeds under given circumstances will come to dominate the population.

    It might be expressed as a particular religion, simple horniness combined with resistance to using birth control, or myriad other ways.

    But that part of the population will be a larger percentage over time and finally come to dominate the population.

    There is an exception-- a universe 133 scenario. The population in those experiments collapsed and did not recover.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an exception-- a universe 133 scenario. The population in those experiments collapsed and did not recover.

      Link? Can't find anything about this on google.

    2. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what is virii?

      http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/3838/viruses-or-virii

    3. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I must be misremembering the universe #.

      Here's a link.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

      and a quote...

      Mouse experiments
      John Calhoun with mice experiment.

      In the early 1960s, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) acquired property in a rural area outside Poolesville, Maryland. The facility that was built on this property housed several research projects, including those headed by Calhoun. It was here that his most famous experiment, the mouse universe, was created.[1] In July 1968 four pairs of mice were introduced into the Utopian universe. The universe was a 9-foot (2.7 m) square metal pen with 54-inch-high (1.4 m) sides. Each side had four groups of four vertical, wire mesh âoetunnelsâ. The âoetunnelsâ gave access to nesting boxes, food hoppers, and water dispensers. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.
      John Calhoun meeting Pope Paul VI on 27 September 1973.

      Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly. The last surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against. After day 600, the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves â" all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed âoethe beautiful onesâ.

      The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.

      Calhoun saw the fate of the population of mice as a metaphor for the potential fate of man. He characterized the social breakdown as a âoesecond deathâ, with reference to the âoesecond deathâ mentioned in the Biblical book of Revelation 2:11 [1] His study has been cited by writers such as Bill Perkins as a warning of the dangers of the living in an "increasingly crowded and impersonal

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    4. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      It's in a book on his experiments...

      http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/22514...

      Page 4.
      4
      Fig 1. John B. Calhoun in rodent Universe 133

      and page 18.

      Calhounâ(TM)s rodent experiments (note that "universe 133" was actually a mouse experiment, but it is as ever with reference to rats that the work is recalled)

      And I hate the lack of ability to edit combined with Slashdot's poor treatment of unicode quote marks!

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    5. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by EthanBernard · · Score: 1

      If misery is the only thing that can stop a population from growing, then that population will grow until it is miserable.

    6. Re:Just like bacteria or virii by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Inability to breed while miserable is just another selective pressure.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  10. Told you so by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

    Who's the Malthusian now, bitches?

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    1. Re:Told you so by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      Nobody's modding me down for this? Really? :P

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  11. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just turn off the movie or put the book down and get back to reality.

    1. Re:What? by neoritter · · Score: 1

      I think they need some sleep. They're obviously suffering from sleep deprivation.

  12. Africa by superdave80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most of the anticipated growth is in Africa, where population is projected to quadruple from around 1 billion today to 4 billion by the end of the century.

    You mean, the continent that can barely feed itself and is the source of deadly plagues (Ebola, etc.) is somehow going to support four times it's current population? I'd like to see how that is feasible...

    1. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if ever a country needed air drops of new Fleshlights...

    2. Re:Africa by halivar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right now there are 3000 dead from Ebola. Europe lost a quarter of its population to the Spanish Flu just a 100 years ago, so I'd say there's no worries there.

    3. Re:Africa by gman003 · · Score: 1

      You do realize judging the entire country of Africa by the most notorious problems is like judging North America by Haiti and West Virginia. Ebola isn't even that deadly at a population level - it's killed fewer people, total, than the recent Gaza war. The real killer diseases in Africa are the ones we've already solved in the developed world - malaria and the ilk.

      Anyways, build a modern healthcare infrastructure, modern farms with GMO crops, stop all the pointless wars and rein industry in a bit, and Africa will be fine.

    4. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyways, build a modern healthcare infrastructure, modern farms with GMO crops, stop all the pointless wars and rein industry in a bit, and Africa will be fine.

      End war and hunger. Sounds simple enough, good thing you thought of that. It does seem odd that no one else has thought of it in the past couple of hundred thousand years though.

    5. Re:Africa by kruach+aum · · Score: 4, Funny

      The entire country of Africa?

    6. Re:Africa by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      If making ridiculous extrapolations to the future without any backlash from scientific community is possible, then _everything_ is possible.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    7. Re:Africa by gman003 · · Score: 1

      ... I really meant to say "continent" there. I really did.

    8. Re:Africa by meza · · Score: 2

      You're not fooling anyone Sarah Palin ...

    9. Re:Africa by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Anyways, build a modern healthcare infrastructure, modern farms with GMO crops, stop all the pointless wars and rein industry in a bit, and Africa will be fine.

      Are you running for Miss America?

    10. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious; improve the poverty situation and the population growth rate will decline significantly. Look at Europe's native European populations (i.e. not immigrants) for proof.

    11. Re:Africa by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      You mean like Europe in the 19th century?

    12. Re:Africa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, that's the future baby. I like the Earth better with 3 billion people on it.

    13. Re:Africa by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Most of the anticipated growth is in Africa, where population is projected to quadruple from around 1 billion today to 4 billion by the end of the century.

      You mean, the continent that can barely feed itself and is the source of deadly plagues (Ebola, etc.) is somehow going to support four times it's current population? I'd like to see how that is feasible...

      Artificial fertilizer, tractors, better crop varieties. Maybe some GMO.

      Africa is huge and has a lot of good soil waiting to be turned into efficient industrial farms. What it lacks is peaces, stability and institutions. But they're working on it.

      It is sometimes said that Africa would eventually end up feeding the world, but if these new figures turn out to be true then it will perhaps merely end up feeding itself.

    14. Re:Africa by khallow · · Score: 1

      A couple of remarks here. First, there are 3000 dead now from Ebola, which is more than it has infected in all previously known infections (though obviously, it may have killed more in the past before we were aware of it). What it has done in the past is not necessarily what it will do in the future, and we're already in uncharted waters with Ebola having reached large urban areas.

      WHO is projecting hundreds of thousands of infections over the next year and a half. If it's lethality doesn't go down, then that's a lot of deaths too.

      Second, Europe didn't lose a quarter of its population to the 1918 influenza pandemic. A better guess is 2%.

    15. Re:Africa by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Ebola is fast and lethal, and that's one of the reasons why it's tougher for it to spread than, say, the Spanish Flu was. Ebola's a super-scary disease, but it's not contagious until you exhibit Ebola-like symptoms, as opposed to a cold or the flu where you can spread the disease while being in the symptomatic period (I was told, though I don't know if this is just hearsay, that the common cold is MORE virulent before the sneezing/coughing period, though I'm not sure how that would be the case).

  13. It's not the space, it'd the food. by MaizeMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not finding places for people to live, it is finding land to grow the food necessary to feed people in the style to which they have become/are becoming/will become accustomed to. Basic food prices have been spiking for the last several years, although it hasn't shown up in significant changes in the super market yet because most of the cost of processed food comes from the processing not the ingredients. (If the price of corn doubles it adds only 11 cents to the cost of a quarter pound hamburger: http://www.g-feed.com/2012/08/...) After years of stability, the rate at which virgin forest land is being converted to agricultural production has also started to increase again, likely because increases in crop productivity has slowed to a crawl in many of the most productive agricultural regions of the world: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2...

    1. Re:It's not the space, it'd the food. by neoritter · · Score: 2

      No there's plenty of land to grow food for the current population. There is enough food created in the world to feed everyone well. The problem is there is so much waste. Tons of food goes rotten in the fields and has to be thrown out. Even more is thrown out in the trash. Your food prices remark is irrelevant. The reason food prices are up are not related demand due to faces to feed. Corn prices have been rising because of ethanol usage. The world has an efficiency and logistics problem when it comes to food production. When you consider that everyone in the world could fit inside Texas with a population density of Paris, it becomes pretty apparent.

    2. Re:It's not the space, it'd the food. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basic food prices have been spiking for the last several years

      Tariffs, subsidies to not grow food, and the practice of destroying surplus really don't help.

    3. Re:It's not the space, it'd the food. by geekoid · · Score: 2

      The problem is not waste, it's distribution. Even with the current level of waste, everyone could eat 3 meals and snacks, everyday.
      Getting it to people is a lot harder.

      If we ended all food waste right now, there would not be 1 less person going hungry.
      Hell, we can't even get food to people going hungry in the US without a political shit storm happening from people who think it's the same thing as communism.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:It's not the space, it'd the food. by neoritter · · Score: 1

      Well I agree for the most part, in fact I said this, "the world has an efficiency and logistics problem when it comes to food production." To me waste is a combination of bad use of resources and shortcomings in the distribution of food. Hell, look at some food shelters in some states. Panera likes to give away its day old bread to local food shelters. But some states, maybe correctly, do not allow food to be redistributed if it's not packaged. So what do the food shelters do when they get Panera's bread? They throw it out, because legally they can't give it to people.

  14. If you want to get a feel... by freshlimesoda · · Score: 1

    Go to Bangladesh, they are like 20 Billion already scaled to size...

    --
    I come to Slashdot only to read sigs. One you are reading is mine.
  15. Familiar story line by Lucas123 · · Score: 1

    The Stardate is 5423.4. The Federation starship Enterprise arrives at the planet Gideon to begin diplomatic relations and invite the inhabitants to join the Federation. Gideon is reported to be a virtual paradise where the people live incredibly long lives in a nearly germ-free environment, but they refuse to allow anyone but Captain James Kirk from the Enterprise, to beam down. Upon beaming down, however, Kirk learns that the population has exploded to the point where the planet can barely contain the populace. Gideon's leaders plan is to infect the people with a human virus in an attempt to "control" the overpopulation problem caused by the people's long lifespans in a germ-free environment. So, as I see it, the problem is easily solved. Find a alien with a virus for which we have no cure.

    1. Re:Familiar story line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why go through that trouble? If the decision to limit population comes from the top, they control all infrastructure already, and in many countries hospitals are public. It's easy - infect water supplies, cause an artificial bottleneck to the medicine to treat it.

      I mean if you're going to be horrible you might as well go all in, and it'd be easier than finding alien viruses. Also I'm not convinced there's many diseases we wouldn't figure out sooner or later.

    2. Re:Familiar story line by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2

      The best story on those lines is The Mote in Gods Eye by Larry Niven.

      But we already have tried something like this : China's one child policy has reduced (and will reduce further) their population. Now we just need India and possibly Bangladesh, Indonesia and Brazil to do the same.

  16. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Rigel47 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Do tell how "the west" is responsible for most of Africa's ills. Last I checked they've mostly been governing themselves for a few generations (exception SA). Shall we blame the Brits for Sunni and Shiia slaughtering each other for hundreds of years too?

  17. Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem isn't land for people to live. It is a problem of living cultural and also food.

  18. We'll all be dead by 2100.... by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    Or else we'll wish we were.

    No wonder world leaders make such short sighted decisions.

    Plus the fact that nobody has perfected the crystal ball technology yet.

  19. 80% chance of 50% error by slycendice · · Score: 1

    There's no way we can estimate the margin of error on this study until another study debunks this one, just as this one has debunked a previous one.

  20. I hope that isn't true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I cannot imagine what a horrific mess the world would be with that many people. War and disease I think will make that unlikely.

    It's a shame the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement just didn't catch on. www.vhemt.org

  21. Perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to my calculations, (do your own) world poulation is increasing between 130k and 180k humans per day. That means the great 2012 tsunami in Indonesia that killed an estimated 230 thousand only flattened the growth curve for two days.
    Now imagine what it will take to flatten or reduce population growth over several years.

  22. Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitute by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One that's as cheap, energy dense and as easy to handle at room temperature as oil, coal, natural gas and so on.

    If we *don't* do this, then I'm fairly sure that after we hit 11 billion by 2100, we'll be lucky to hit 50 million by 2200. Fewer, if we try and solve our resource problems by throwing nukes at one another, which sounds likely.

    Like all species, we simply consume resources until the population crashes. What we've been so far with technology is "lucky." There's always been another *cheap* and *easy* resource to exploit. Short of a breakthrough in battery technology and thorium reactors (or fusion) that's not going to happen again.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  23. Malthus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Famine, plague, war, or birth control. Choose. I guess you have. -Malthus.

    Too late. Game over.

    The West will begin mining the harbors and cratering the airports so nothing can leave. They will landmine the jungle. Anything that leaves is sunk or shot. Snipers sans Frontieres. Quarantine with extreme
    prejudice.

    Civilization is a choice. Make it. Soon.

    Or don't, and the population goes back to the under-billion level before the West started feeding everyone...

  24. Ignoring war by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    War, what is it good for?

    Decreasing excess human population. That's what is good for.

    And we have quite a few potential human population decreases being set up right now - ISIS and Russia are just waiting to decrease some extra human population.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Ignoring war by Livius · · Score: 1

      Not really. Wars have had surprisingly little impact on overall world population growth.

    2. Re:Ignoring war by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      That's because we haven't had a war where WMD were used on a large scale.

      1945, you say? Firecrackers by modern standards.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
  25. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't you love these crazy twisted leftist narratives so many have been taught! There is no denying "the west" did some monstrously abusive things in Africa but as you say its been mostly self governing for several generations. Its also true they were given more in terms of technology and knowledge than wealth that "the west" ever took out of there.

  26. Re:Just great by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    Umm, exactly where did you get that 250 million number from? It LOOKS like it might be the number killed by the various totalitarian regimes of the the 20th Century, but that cannot be correct because those regimes were allied with the Democrats (until political exigencies forced the Democrats to turn on them), not with the Republicans.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  27. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so -as an atheist no less- i am *not* my brother's keeper ? ? ?

  28. Re:Something something water, blah blah ebola, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  29. All Borg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assuming there is not a big plague or natural disaster, then I think their number is very conservative. I think it will be much higher.

  30. I know. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of the anticipated growth is in Africa, where population is projected to quadruple from around 1 billion today to 4 billion by the end of the century.

    You mean, the continent that can barely feed itself and is the source of deadly plagues (Ebola, etc.) is somehow going to support four times it's current population? I'd like to see how that is feasible...

    Bono.

    To save the World, we need to ban U2 music.

    1. Re:I know. by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      They don't have many music players over there. Once we can really get some exports of U2's music down there, it will result in mass depopulation.

  31. Re:Just great by halivar · · Score: 1

    He always posted this schizoid stuff. Just ignore him.

  32. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When was Africa ever not a mess?

  33. Re:Just great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are you supporting the Shurbs by quoting too low of a number? They killed way more than 60M with their war of hate on Islam. Why protect them like this unless you are one of their kind?

  34. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We have meddled in those countries for over 100 years, mostly for the natural resources. Outside of emergency relief, constantly providing food to Africa decimates the native producers when they cannot compete with cheap products provided by governments and charities. It becomes a cycle, forcing farmers into poverty, furthering the market share of the large producers from the US and Europe.

    Countries do not provide foreign aid out of kindness, there are always strings attached.

  35. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Spy+Handler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    West, just by the fact of existing, messed up Africa.

    Before white men's ships arrived, Africans were living in their tribal villages leading simple agricultural or hunter/gatherer lives. Just as people all over the world have been doing for ten thousand years. It was no paradise, but they had a balance with natural forces where the population wouldn't grow faster than the food supply.

    Then comes the white man with his antibiotics and high-yielding maize (which he got from the New World Indians, but that's another story). Suddenly infant mortality went down and crop yields went up and population could grow like crazy. But Africans never developed the institutions and social structures necessary to support a densely populated society that the Europeans and East Asians did. African nations today still run pretty much like they did thousands of years ago, local warlords taking power. Except now it's millions of people instead of a few villages.

    Africans would've been infinitely better off left completely to their own devices. Would they still be living in stone age primitive societies? Yes. Would it be preferable to what they have now? Yes.

  36. CO2 contributions by population? by g0tai · · Score: 1

    I'm probably being a bit ignorant, but how much would this affect CO2 emissions? I know we're trying to reduce it where possible, however, where the population increases (by this much) I imagine that there's a lot more CO2 being produced simply by new people living. Or does it get offset by increased agriculture (or something like this)?

    1. Re:CO2 contributions by population? by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      The CO2 being produced through breathing is a net neutral.
      Plants are carbon neutral. They have been since the carboniferous era.
      CO2 from using power will be the issue, unless we start a aggressive plan to stop using CO2 emitting technology for power.
      By aggressive, I mean 75 years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  37. Don't look at me by JudgeFurious · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'll be long gone and I've made sure that I created no annoying descendants too. I've done my part for population control. It's partially how a rationalize my 16MPG Mustang GT, hour long hot showers, and keeping my thermostat at 60 degrees all summer long. I'm bad but I've made sure that I'm the last of my line. Now get off my lawn!

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    1. Re:Don't look at me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fucking applaud you sir! I too have deliberately spawned no offspring and shall never do so.

      Don't forget - for every larvae we can avoid excreting into the world, we all save the resources their own larvae (and so on) would have consumed as well!

      It's a well of win that never runs dry! :)

  38. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not really. Western countries (in particular France) have interfered a lot with a lot of their governments during these few generations, and not for the best (I mean not for their best, obviously it was in the best interest of the French politicians who did it). Even just some years ago, the "international community" (meaning the Nato, China and Russia never agreed), deposited the president of Ivory Coast (officially, because he had democratically lost an election, but if things were so simple, his request to recount would not have been answered by bombs).

  39. Bayesian statistics by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Ohhh fancy! :)

  40. Oh Canada! by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Of course given global warm... or climate change or whatever, that would make much more of Canada hospitable, like North Bay or even Sudbury!

    Though given that much of the non-populated near arctic is tundra on top of granite I am not sure how feasible that really is. Also much of the northern parts are only accessible by ice bridges really in winter, which would actually mean that less of the area is actually available for settlement.

    1. Re:Oh Canada! by mi · · Score: 1

      Though given that much of the non-populated near arctic is tundra on top of granite I am not sure how feasible that really is.

      Is it really worse than Svalbard? People live there too. Longyearbyen may not be much today, but it is likely to expand, if more habitable areas elsewhere become too crowded.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:Oh Canada! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " that would make much more of Canada hospitable"
      briefly.
      It's not like the warming will stop just because Canada is more habitable

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Oh Canada! by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      Much of Canada is already quite easily habitable, it's just that there's nothing there to draw people to it. For a simple example take a look at Alberta. Looking at 2011 numbers the population of the province is 3.6 million, with about two-thirds of that living in Calgary and Edmonton. There's a LOT of wide open land that could easily be filled up with people and their stuff. If you had ten million people and some start-up capital you could build a metropolis somewhere between Calgary and the Montana border with easy access to roads, rails, farmland, water, etc. For reference, New York City has an area about 15 sq. mi. smaller than Calgary and roughly eight times the population.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    4. Re:Oh Canada! by dave420 · · Score: 0

      Just a friendly aside: Every time you make a joke about confusing "global warming" or "climate change", you aren't making a criticism (just or not) of the science or even the politics, you are merely telling everyone you don't really understand the terms. Let me help:

      Global Warming: The increasing of the average temperature of the planet
      Climate Change: The changes to the climate caused by the increase in energy in the climate.

      Two different, but related, phenomena.

  41. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

    Shall we blame the Brits for Sunni and Shiia slaughtering each other for hundreds of years too?
    Mainly yes.
    Ever looked at a 'natural' map, like Europe, Asia etc?
    And ever looked at an 'artificial' map, like USA, Africa?
    Do you notice a difference? Most borders in Africa are artificial. Straight lines going through old 'tribes' territories, splitting up stuff that 'belongs together' and add 'random' areas to now existing countries.

    E.g Texas in the USA, several straight borders, same for Libya, Algeria, Sudan etc. in Africa.

    Basically everything that is running bad in Africa is a direct result of european imperialism.

    The whole continent was still 'sone age' or early 'iron age' when the occupiers finally left.

    But now a tribe had tanks, the other had not. The guys ruling there usually do one thing: 'cleanse' the previous ruling cohorts and replace every post with family members and far relatives. Regardless if they win an election or become rulers by a coupe. The idea that law is above everything, that corruption is bad etc. etc. is a strange concept to them. How should it not, during the occupation by europeans they experienced that the laws are not protecting them, they are only to the benefit of the imperialists.

    There is plenty of literature about Africa around 1900 ... good movies, too. Even random 'novels' which made it to movies give good back ground knowledge, or at least an impression.

    In roman times, and even when the british conquered half of it, Africa was full with empires, striving huge empires.

    But the British did it like the Romans: befriend one tribe, give him 'modern' weapons and let him lose on the 'enemies' of that tribe. With the promise to support that tribe with houses, more weapons, schools, and most important: churches.

    They did the same in India and New Zealand ...

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  42. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  43. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly.
    Ignoring peak oil, global warming and assuming widespread incest, my model predicts a world population 120B in 2100!

  44. Re:Just great by Dishevel · · Score: 1

    Dude! You are awesome. You have to tell me though. Do you actually believe the things you just said or are you just in it for the lols and the altruistic aim of entertaining everyone around you?

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  45. n/m by great+throwdini · · Score: 1

    (posting to undo errant mod)

  46. Re:Something something water, blah blah ebola, by zlives · · Score: 1

    and now we get to the fun part of the roller coaster ride.

  47. Really ? Aren't you dreaming ehre ? by aepervius · · Score: 1

    With what energy and what resource are they supposed to do that ? And how would america midwest react to a few dozen million people from subsahara coming to live ? It is difficult to say with internet but I have the strong feeling that your post were a joke posted in sarcasm really.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  48. The answer is simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Carpet-nuke Russia, China (Including North Korea and Vietnam), India (Including Pakistan) and Africa. That, right there, will chop out 4 billion people, cutting the world population in half.

  49. And thi sis why by geekoid · · Score: 1

    we need global encouragement for people to not have more than 2 children. I nice slow draw down to 3 billion over many decades.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  50. I count more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looking at the population over time it looks like 11 biliion in 80+ years seems low. Considering that it's now close to 1 billion every decade added to the population , we are soon going to reach a doubling, and more than likely will see closer to 15 billion by 2100.

  51. How is he incorrect, though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is he incorrect, though?

    Disease is a significant problem in Africa and India. Neither are exactly nice places to live for most of their inhabitants, which is why so many of them try to move to Western nations. Overpopulation is a huge problem in both areas.

    We, as Westerners, need to stop hiding behind political correctness. It's the only way the problems in those areas will ever get dealt with properly.

    Africans and Indians do need to stop reproducing if there just aren't enough resources to sustain the population that already exists, never mind any new people. It's just common sense. Adding more people when there aren't enough resources to go around is just going to make a bad situation even worse.

    If they can't figure this out on their own, then it is up to Westerners to inform them of the situation and how to deal with it.

    1. Re: How is he incorrect, though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But African women can't resist their well-hung men. And Indians invented Kama Sutra. So you'll just have to get used to a darkening world.

    2. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans don't work that way. You're complaining that people in the third world are having too many children for the resources they have access to, so they should have fewer children. That's not the problem. Or, rather, it's very much so the wrong way of looking at the problem. Put simply: people with enough resources to raise children raise fewer children. It's counterintuitive, but quite simple once you note that the goal is not to have as many children as possible, but to be as sure as possible that at least one child will survive to have children. If you're starving, the optimal strategy is not to have a single child and focus all of your resources on them because that probably won't work. The optimal strategy is to have as many children as possible and hope one of them survives by dumb luck. In practice, people overestimate because this is by no means an exact science and you get a population explosion. If you want to reduce population growth, you need economy stability.

      That, and providing women access to education and contraceptives.

    3. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by Ghaoth · · Score: 1

      Soylent Green.

      --
      Nos Morituri te salutamus
    4. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the resources aren't there, the population will drop accordingly. Giving handouts to them just makes them dependent.

    5. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      That's why people have realised to support them in both the short-term and the long-term: Short-term support includes food, medicine, infrastructure, farming help, etc. Long-term support includes more infrastructure, education, health-care, etc.

      If you'd thought about this for more than a couple of seconds, you'd not sound like such a callous, ignorant xenophobe.

    6. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      How is he incorrect, though?

      Politically. I'm not sure what you're asking here. I never alleged that he was "incorrect". I doubt that he's incorrect about his hopes; he would know his hopes better than anyone else, no? The second part of his post is a subjective value statement and the idea of correctness doesn't really apply. Your question presupposes that he is incorrect, which doesn't really make sense to me, but if you're asking how he is incorrect, my only response is that he is politically incorrect.

      Disease is a significant problem in Africa and India. Neither are exactly nice places to live for most of their inhabitants, which is why so many of them try to move to Western nations. Overpopulation is a huge problem in both areas.

      Indeed, part of this is true. Disease is a significant problem. Neither are a nice place to live. Many try to move to Western nations. However, the average population density of the African continent is 95 people per square mile. For comparison, Europe has 186 people per square mile. Overpopulation can't explain why Africa is shittier than Europe. India has 954 people per square mile, but South Korea has 1288 people per square mile. Overpopulation can't explain why India is shittier than South Korea. While overpopulation may or may not be a huge problem in both areas, it's not hard to point to places with greater population [density] but much better conditions.

      We, as Westerners, need to stop hiding behind political correctness. It's the only way the problems in those areas will ever get dealt with properly.

      I agree that political correctness has ruined public discourse. However, this is not one of those times. pigiron's comment was not only offensive, it was also worthless. Wishing death upon the poor isn't going to fix this problem, unless you think the problem is the existence of poor people (in which case actively killing them would be a much better "solution" anyway).

      Africans and Indians do need to stop reproducing if there just aren't enough resources to sustain the population that already exists, never mind any new people. It's just common sense. Adding more people when there aren't enough resources to go around is just going to make a bad situation even worse.

      Hi, welcome to life on Earth. You must be new here. Westerners do need to stop pumping toxins into the air and water if they're already fucking up the global environment. It's just common sense. Fisherman do need to stop industrial-scale fishing if global fish stocks are nearly gone. It's just common sense.

      If they can't figure this out on their own, then it is up to Westerners to inform them of the situation and how to deal with it.

      So you're saying it's up to us to offer up such great solutions as "die from Ebola"? Forgive me for doubting that these people will be very receptive to this solution.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    7. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I agree that political correctness has ruined public discourse

      What a load of bollocks.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    8. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      It's true though. The requirement of policital correctness is what's driving us towards a world of doublespeak. Certain things that need to be said (but can't be said) just end up being said in an idiotic way to appease those who would attack the speaker for being politically incorrect. It's the reason why we can't have honest discussions using plain language, and it fucking sucks.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    9. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      If you want to say something racist, sexist, homophobic (etc) no one's stopping you, but you can't complain when you're called racist, sexist or homophobic, and you certainly can't force people to take you seriously if that's how you present yourself.

      If you genuinely believe that, say, all women are mentally deficient, and you communicate those views, most people will simpy think you're stupid. It doesn't really matter what words you use, it's the absurdity of the underlying beliefs that gets people's backs up.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    10. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      So instead what has happened is that racists, sexists, and homophobes have resorted to speaking in code. Nobody calls them on it even though they're really communicating the same ideas. They're just using the right words, so it's okay. This is what's meant by political correctness. Not that the old isms are no longer acceptable, but merely that using old language is no longer acceptable. It's not politically correct to say that one's uncomfortable around black people, but where are the funny looks when one says they're uncomfortable around urban populations? These faux niceness is causing gross perversions in the English language. With a wink and a nudge, people get around these absurd social norms and in the end our society is just as bigoted as it was last year. The only things that really change are the utility and clarity of the English language.

      If you get all riled up when someone uses the wrong word, you damn well better get just as riled up when they express the same sentiment using doublespeak. I hate this euphemism shit that the political correctness crowd is pushing us towards because it prevents people from being able to communicate clearly.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    11. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Indeed, part of this is true. Disease is a significant problem. Neither are a nice place to live. Many try to move to Western nations. However, the average population density of the African continent is 95 people per square mile. For comparison, Europe has 186 people per square mile. Overpopulation can't explain why Africa is shittier than Europe. India has 954 people per square mile, but South Korea has 1288 people per square mile. Overpopulation can't explain why India is shittier than South Korea. While overpopulation may or may not be a huge problem in both areas, it's not hard to point to places with greater population [density] but much better conditions.

      In particular, Africa is much bigger than we usually think. Mercator projection maps shrink it relatively to Europe and other northern lands, while a Gall-Peters map makes it quite huger than Europe or N. or S. America

    12. Re:How is he incorrect, though? by pigiron · · Score: 1

      Dump the distorted, politically correct Gall-Peters and get yourself a decent globe to sit next to your desk.

  52. Not a problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Much if not most Midwest land seems devoted to wall to wall food production, hardly what I'd consider to be unpopulated free space. Have you ever seen it from a plane? There's also the issue of aquifer reserves.

  53. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

    Before the white man came with his ships....
    those tribes were continually at war with each other, slavery and there was terror and violence all the time. Even in the times of Egypt and Rome it was so.

    I think the people living happily in cities like Lagos would like to disagree with you. Its not a continent populated with mud huts or crazed dictators, its a lot more 'ordinary' than that. You might visit an African city and find its not much different to one of your own.

  54. nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Considering how quickly the planet went from under a billion during the Roman empire (that we know of) to 7 billion in 2014, and the increased birthrate and better mortality rate, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes faster than 2100.

    I also fully expect it to not even be 9 billion by that time unless there are several paradigm shifts in every aspect of humanity. Considering we can't even feed, house, or employ a gigantic amount of those 7 billion right now, if things don't improve, that number will stay 7 billion. You say "Oh we just need advancements." We haven't advanced much since 1918, have we? Still have one of the same pistols in active duty. Still using the same design principles in machine guns. Still have people making and using the same chemical weapons. Still have the same governments in charge. Same banks in charge. A lot of the same medicine, but some improved medical procedures.

  55. I can help rationalize by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Install a big solar hot water heater, put reflective polyisocyanurate panels on all your windows, have some more insulation blown into your roof. If you have the money, buy a Tesla Roadster. High performance electric cars are still energy efficient. Don't feel guilty about the Mustang if you can't.

    While you're at it, replace your water guzzling lawn with artificial turf. It will get real hot in the summer, and it will not need to be mowed.

  56. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by lorinc · · Score: 1

    The thing is, population will continue to grow even long after the resources collapse, because it has some delay between the behavior changes and the economic situation. This just makes things even more likely to end with the nuke option.

  57. Never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Loss of agriculture due to increasingly unstable climate change, loss of petroleum, large events triggered by the redistribution of cold, heat, drought, storms, winds, snows, loss of icecaps, franking, nuclear accidents and ramping radioactive pollution. war over OS 3 on moon and expanding China, Pakistani, North Korean and Russian Axis in conflict with Indian, Japanese, US and British Allies; past peak agriculture. Past peak clean water, past peak oil production, pre peak nuclear failures and the resistance of nuclear accidents to any solutions what so ever, loss of aquifers to fracking chemical brews, resurgence of resistant diseases, loss of food value to genetic engineering. All leads to a sustainable population of between 0 to a 3 billion my estimate.

  58. Only one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humanity will have been extinct for at least 50 or more years by then..so the population will never get there. Once ebola gets out of Africa and goes airborne the population will ne dropping like a stone. Whoever remains will end up at war over what remains and that'll be all she wrote.

  59. See France by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    and Germany. And the Netherlands. And a tonne of other countries where Socialism works just fine thank you very much. What _doesn't_ work is mixing American Style right-wing Reagan-Thatcher politics in. See the UK's collapsing economy for that, or wealth inequality in the U.S. that's gone back to pre-Black Tuesday leves.

    Also, there's this little think called progress. I'm too lazy to google for the Robert Reich infographic that show that productivity is up 80% since 1979 but wages are only up 8% (and that proves wages stopped growing in America in 1979). Forget all that. We're rapidly automating away just about every job. Even _China_ is replacing workers with robots. When robots are cheaper than Chinese slave labor you know you have a problem.

    So, when we don't need people to work 20 hours a week let alone the 50 they're doing now (you can google the /. article on that one too) what the _heck_ do we do with 'em all. The world _doesn't_ need ditch diggers....

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:See France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, when we don't need people to work 20 hours a week let alone the 50 they're doing now (you can google the /. article on that one too) what the _heck_ do we do with 'em all. The world _doesn't_ need ditch diggers....

      There are huge problems in the world - i.e. poverty, disease, and conflict. Science can almost certainly solve the first two and most probably the third. But it would take a huge amount of work and it would require increasing taxes on the rich to pay for it.

      At some time in the future we may find that we've employed absolutely everyone who could possibly be a scientist and funding is no longer a limitation. But, at the moment, we've got a huge excess of people with science PhDs who can't find any work in science at all. But the rich people prefer to spend their money on designer handbags and other frivolous luxury items.

      Eventually everyone may realize that, when the USA was founded as a government of the people, the intent was not that it's economy would consist of a small ruling class living out lives of frivolous excess by exploiting a lower class of everyone else living in desperate poverty. Until then, there will be a shortage of work because the rich don't really need all that many designer handbags - and they sure aren't going to pay taxes for science to solve the world's big problems.

  60. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by khallow · · Score: 2

    One that's as cheap, energy dense and as easy to handle at room temperature as oil, coal, natural gas and so on.

    Well, there is coal. That's not going away by 2100 despite your assertion.

    Like all species, we simply consume resources until the population crashes.

    Which is incorrect. As the paper notes, most of the population growth comes from Africa and Asia. The developed world actually is a population sink - the overpopulation problem has been fixed there. What responsibility am I supposed to have for population growth elsewhere in the world? And what power am I supposed to have to fix that?

  61. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    They weren't really even 'countries' until the west came in, drew borders, and told the nomadic populations they were now citizens of a country.

    It isn't cutting them down to say this. Probably the old nomdic ways of life on the arabian penensula, to focus on one area, were very rewarding for those who lived it. If the west would butt out, which might be the only solution to the problem, then let the local peoples settle their differences and then reach out for what they want, not what outsiders say they need, many problems might be resolved.

  62. Mod Parent Up by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Hell, we can't even get food to people going hungry in the US without a political shit storm happening from people who think it's the same thing as communism.

    Too true. We could be the heroes of mankind, or at least heroes of a proud and healthy nation: so doable, yet so not done. It hurts.

    --
    -kgj
  63. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Kjella · · Score: 1

    Basically everything that is running bad in Africa is a direct result of european imperialism.

    And how long is that excuse valid for? It's not like Europe has been very peaceful and tripped Africa up on purpose, we've started two world wars in the last 100 years on our own turf. Yes, I realize problems don't go away in a day or a year or even a decade but look how far Europe has come in the last 70 years. How far has Africa come? How much aid money, emergency relief, how many education and healthcare programs have they gotten for free?

    Still trotting out that old excuse and blaming the white man for all their woes is probably going to backfire. It only nourishes the people who think Africa is the way it is because they're primitive deadbeats who can't get anything done on their own. It's not that there's anything wrong with the people as such, take a black man and put him in a different environment and he might end up as President and a Harvard magna cum laude graduate.

    My impression is that most of Africa's problems are cultural, like for example the response to Ebola. If they'd just stop touching their dead and seek medical help they'd do fine, but through ignorance and indifference and working against those trying to help them they'll just let it spread. Like HIV, there's a reason it's a huge problem south of Sahara and practically nowhere else and it's because for some cultural reason they just don't seem to value safe sex.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  64. Good news everyone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So with oil projected to run out in 2038-2042 we'll will just keep growing when there is no way to grow or move food!

    I think this is a great thing because the current population has eaten almost all the large fish in the sea and is busy building dead spots growing stuff on land. So dead ocean helps our population grow!

    Man, all this doom and gloom about "Road Warrior days" coming up as fuel runs out*.. Good news, we'll be at 11 billion in 2100! Breed away kids, there is a great future!

    Also good to know that climate change is not happening and will not affect humanity!

    *alternate energy? Have you seen the stories the Kochs buy? Yeah, not big wind while it kills eagles, solar cooks eagles too! OMG, off shore wind messes with seals! Breeder reactors? OMG TERRARISTS!
    Best stick to coal and oil until 2100!

  65. There is a problem with that theory by msobkow · · Score: 1

    That theory assumes that growth can be virtually unlimited, when it's not. At this point in time, the only energy source we have that can deal with providing the transportation, food growing, and energy needs of the population is fossil fuels. If we continue using fossil fuels at an ever increasing rate, global warming is going to decimate food production. And millions upon billions are going to starve to death, if we aren't killed off by some plague or a nuclear war first.

    Still, it does bother me that the biggest population growth centers are those least capable of supporting an increasing population. That makes the likelihood of wars that much greater.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  66. Hans Rosling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As Hans Rosling has been explaining it for years...

  67. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by dave420 · · Score: 1

    The problems with Africa are directly born from the west's meddling. Redrawing borders, destroying institutions, creating new ones bent on serving the west, stealing minerals & raw materials, working the native people in to the ground or stealing them. The list goes on. It's massive. Pretending the repercussions of that aren't still being felt - and being felt hard - is pathetic.

    Your impression about Africa is nothing but a bunch of racist nonsense. It's not cultural, but educational. Just go look at places in Africa where education is being made available, and you'll mysteriously notice your "cultural" shortcomings disappearing. Weird, huh?

    I used to think you were pretty cool, but apparently I was wrong. You're either intellectually lazy or a racist - neither is particularly becoming.

  68. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are so many people dismissive of the alleged fusion generators coming in a few years? Is there no truth to many researchers claiming fusion is only a few years away? 2022 for commercial ones according to Lockheed Martin? Are they not to be trusted?

  69. Thank goodness ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... I'm old enough that I won't be around to see it.

  70. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by c6gunner · · Score: 2

    So we've given them lower infant mortality and more regular food availability, while they continued to kill and enslave each other at roughly the same rate as before. And you think that "messed them up"?

    How so?

    Seems to me at worst we've made things slightly better for them. I'm pretty sure the women, at least, are happy to see more of their children surviving to adulthood. Plus we've given them the tools and knowledge to build better societies, even if it hasn't happened yet. How is that a bad thing?

    Not to mention that you whole comment stinks of condescension. "Should have left those poor dumb Negroes to their own devices; they'd be much happier running around naked chucking spears at the local wildlife".

  71. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Ever looked at a 'natural' map, like Europe, Asia etc?
    And ever looked at an 'artificial' map, like USA, Africa?

    There's no such thing as a natural map, unless you're talking about the geological outlines without any political boundaries. You know why your "natural" maps look so chaotic as opposed to your "artificial" ones? Because the former are a result of centuries of conflict carved out according to what each tribe could hold, whereas the latter are carved out arbitrarily by one tribe (ie. the British) which can hold everything. The latter is no more "artificial" than the former; it merely ceases to have any meaning once the all-powerful tribe packs up and goes home. The power vacuum gets filled by the old tribes all going back to their original squabbles.

    The British didn't create conflict by putting up new borders; they put a stop to ongoing conflicts which resumed once the British left.

    The guys ruling there usually do one thing: 'cleanse' the previous ruling cohorts and replace every post with family members and far relatives. Regardless if they win an election or become rulers by a coupe. The idea that law is above everything, that corruption is bad etc. etc. is a strange concept to them. How should it not, during the occupation by europeans they experienced that the laws are not protecting them, they are only to the benefit of the imperialists.

    While there's a small bit of truth to your conclusion, it creates the false impression that "cleansing" is a modern invention. That's bullshit. These tribes were destroying and enslaving each other long before the white man ever set foot on their continent.

  72. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    No. Coal is not going away. Oil isn't going away. Natural gas isn't going away. There's never been an issue with the total quantity of hydrocarbons. What we're running out of are hydrocarbons that are:

    1) Inexpensive enough to run an interdependent web of supply chains utterly dependent on *cheap* transportation fuel.

    2) Have a high enough net energy return to justify both their production AND enough left over to run an industrial scale civilization of the current size.

    Capitalism dictates that you go for the resource that gives you the most bang for the buck first in order to maximize profit. We've done that. It's downhill from here. I suggest you google "oil" and "EROEI" to get the figures.

    The fact that population growth isn't local doesn't invalidate anything. If African countries can manage resource diversion to their population, they will. Your lack of control and/or responsibility also changes nothing. This looks unlikely today due to the military power imbalance. After 20 to 50 years of Chinese occupation and development, however, I wouldn't make that bet at all.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  73. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Rigel47 · · Score: 1

    >> Africans would've been infinitely better off left completely to their own devices. Would they still be living in stone age primitive societies? Yes. Would it be preferable to what they have now? Yes. Cute. You speak for all of Africa. Change your nic to Shakazulu Ghost or something.

    Why don't you travel to Africa and advise them to turn their back on all Western things because, y'know, they'll always be incapable of self governance without whitey. Call the movement something catchy.. Boko Haram maybe.

  74. Re:Maybe we if stopped giving Africa food by Rigel47 · · Score: 1

    >My impression is that most of Africa's problems are cultural, like for example the response to Ebola.

    That's more education than culture. Heck, it was a tradition for a while in the West to take dead relatives, dress them up, and pose for photos with them.

  75. 10-11 billion was already the estimate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the estimate I've heard for a few years, not 9 billion. 10-11 billion followed by a decline. If it was 12+ then I'd be taking note.

    You better eat your GMO veggies.

  76. Re:Assuming we find a hydrocarbon energy substitut by khallow · · Score: 1
    Again, coal doesn't fall in that category. Sure, we would be running out of coal, but not by 2100.

    Capitalism dictates that you go for the resource that gives you the most bang for the buck first in order to maximize profit. We've done that. It's downhill from here. I suggest you google "oil" and "EROEI" to get the figures.

    Capitalism is merely private ownership of capital. It doesn't "dictate" that you go for anything in particular. Nor does it dictate that things have to go "downhill" merely because the absolutely cheapest resource is no longer present.

    There's also this thing called "invention" which tends to change the game. I think by 2100 we'll have figured out adequate replacements for cheap petroleum while retaining our vast transportation network. And I think we'll find out then that we've had those alternatives around for a number of decades now.

  77. Hans Rosling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These projections are not prophecy.

    Please watch these videos from Hans Rosling. They are very informative about this particular subject. Africa is making progress and it should not be assumed that their population growth rate will continue as it is.
    http://www.ted.com/speakers/hans_rosling

    This one in particular: http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth