Bioethicist At National Institutes of Health: "Why I Hope To Die At 75"

HughPickens.com writes Ezekiel J. Emanuel, director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at the US National Institutes of Health, writes at The Atlantic that there is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. "It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic." Emanuel says that he is isn't asking for more time than is likely nor foreshortening his life but is talking about the kind and amount of health care he will consent to after 75. "Once I have lived to 75, my approach to my health care will completely change. I won't actively end my life. But I won't try to prolong it, either." Emanuel says that Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible. "I reject this aspiration. I think this manic desperation to endlessly extend life is misguided and potentially destructive. For many reasons, 75 is a pretty good age to aim to stop."

Comments

The WHO

[gbjbaanb]

"hope I die before I get old".... until I get old, that is, and then I expect to scrap life along as much as humanly possible.

Re:The WHO

[Mr D from 63]

We'll see how he feels when he's 75.

Re:The WHO

[amiga3D]

I can't say how I will feel at 75 but already at 55 I'm thinking that I'm not all that desperate to live forever. What's the point of living when their is no real enjoyment? When it hurts to get out of bed and you can't go and do what you want when you want? When you aren't living but just existing and waiting to die? I can see his point easily enough. I'm pretty sure that if I get cancer after 70 I'm just going to start the bucket list. I don't want to be 90 laying in bed waiting for someone to come change my diaper.

Re:The WHO

[Jhon]

"What's the point of living when their is no real enjoyment?"

This is not some "universal" state -- there will be less things to enjoy, but most likely there will still be enjoyment.

"When it hurts to get out of bed and you can't go and do what you want when you want?"

Then you change your expectation of yourself. You DON'T go and do what you want WHEN you want. You rely more on others and your world will grow "smaller". So long as long as the pain can be managed...

"When you aren't living but just existing and waiting to die?"

That's something else. If you are stuck on a machine completely unable to interact with the world around you, then yes. But that needs to be two-way -- there must be someone on the OTHER end of that (family or friends) who want to interact with you.

"I can see his point easily enough."

I can UNDERSTAND his point. I don't AGREE with it. I'm not saying "forced life" under any condition, of course.

"I'm pretty sure that if I get cancer after 70 I'm just going to start the bucket list."

My mother-in-law has cancer. She's 80. Aside from age related dementia (and the limitations that come along with that) she's doing great and enjoying her home, garden, family and life in general.

"I don't want to be 90 laying in bed waiting for someone to come change my diaper."

Ever read "Tuesday's with Morrie"? I like his outlook on life when HE came to having someone else wipe his arse.

Re:The WHO

[CrimsonAvenger]

My parents are both 75+.

And still doing fine.

Yeah, they've slowed down a bit, and have some aches and pains they didn't have 20 years ago. But they still walk the dog a mile or so each day. And Dad still mows five acres (give or take, the treeline could have moved some over the last decade) of his yard weekly.

I think this bioethicist bozo is forgetting that "75" is life expectancy at birth. If you make it to 75 today, odds are good you've got another decade or two in you*. And if you're born today, by the time you're 75, you should have four or five decades left*.

* barring unpredictable things like terminal cancer, of course.

Note that my wife's parents were both born in the early 1920's, and both lasted into this decade. Arguably, they'd have both been better off to have died a year earlier than they did (in both cases, their last year was pretty bad), but that still meant 85+ good years starting from before the Great Depression....

Re:The WHO

[dywolf]

a lot of medical professionals carry this opinion, or a similar one, precisely because they see, every day, what the reality is of old age.
and they dont change their minds; rather they are one of the largest grous with settled views on it who already know what they want and how they want to go.

Re:The WHO

[ShanghaiBill]

My thoughts exactly. He'll change his mind.

Quite likely, especially since his basic premise is wrong. Many people get dementia as they age, but many others don't. It is not inevitable. I know bright, active people in their 90s. We are making a lot of progress at understanding the causes of Alzheimer's and other debilitating diseases of old age. His future may not be as bleak as he imagines. On the other hand, he may already be losing his grip on reality, since he believes that American are "obsessed" with exercising, and doing mental puzzles. A quick glance at obesity rates, and reality TV popularity, should disabuse him of that belief.

Re:The WHO

[Wycliffe]

And if you're born today, by the time you're 75, you should have four or five decades left*.

Based on current trends and short of a major breakthru there is no way someone born today will live to be 120-130.
We've gotten pretty good at extending the quality of life and even getting more people past the 100 goalpost but
we've made little or no progress on actually extending life to any significant extent. 100 seems to be the age that
no matter what you do and how healthy you appear to be that you start having multiple system failures.

Re:The WHO

[Mr D from 63]

a lot of medical professionals carry this opinion, or a similar one, precisely because they see, every day, what the reality is of old age. and they dont change their minds;

So, there are a bunch of 75+ year old ex-medical professionals that are ready to die? I somehow find that hard to believe. Those same medical professionals also see, on a regular basis, 80 and 90+ year olds that live quite enjoyable lives. The 'reality of old age' differs for everyone, medical professionals should know that better than anyone.

Re:The WHO

[Opportunist]

Hey, dementia is a great disease.

At first, only you notice it.
Then everyone else notices it, too.
Then, only everyone around you notices it and you don't.
And then life's great again.

Re:The WHO

[nucrash]

I was thinking about Larry Ellison being 70 and still wanting to work and in fact, actually wanting to take a position where he can continue to be creative instead of one handling the day to day business.

At the same time, my Grandfather passed away last year at age ninety-one. He was weeks away from being ninety-two. When asked about how old he wanted to live, he responded, "My dad lived to be ninety-two, and I think that's a good age, so I want to be ninety-two."

Towards the end, he was being despondent and spent most of his days sleeping. There were times where he would be lucid and say some fantastic things, but for the most part, I could tell he was ready to go. He had lived a good life. Many of us in the family felt that he was due as he lived his last year in a nursing home and didn't really want to even do that.

I do think that quality of life should be included in decisions to prolong life. Terry Schaivo was a case where there was nearly zero potential to improve her life. Other times, I sense that some of these hospital administrations are doing what they can to bilk insurance companies in order to extend a person's life regardless of the eventuality of their passing. Not to sound completely inhumane, but if a person is going to continue their existence by suffering, are we being humane by prolonging their existence.

There are some cases, like with Stephen Hawking, where an individual wants so much to contribute to the world that they want to exist. Because of this, there should not be any hard limit put in as far as a person's life to which we should consider ending health care.

Re:The WHO

[alvinrod]

I think the problem comes from medical professionals only or almost always dealing with the people who are having terrible health problems. If the only time you see older people is when they're in pain or suffering from horrible illness, you wouldn't want to be old either. I suspect that as many of them actually age they find that they still enjoy life and that when they retire they're able to spend time with their families and grandkids and that being old isn't a constant state of suffering or misery. However, medical professionals are only exposed to the worst of old age, so it's hardly surprising that they have such a negative outlook.

It's easy to sit back from my position and say that, but I would imagine that my opinions would change if the vast majority of my day were spent being confronted with what happens to people who don't take care of their bodies or experiencing other illnesses that aren't currently preventable. If nothing else, one would think that this would motivate medical professionals to take good care of their health, so they can avoid finding themselves in that position.

Re:The WHO

[avgjoe62]

My Dad suffered from Lewy Body Dementia at the end of his life. Early on with the disease he had days he was OK, other days he would see and talk to people that weren't there.

On one of the days when he was doing OK I told him that he was suffering from dementia and that he was talking to people that weren't really there. He was surprised and asked me to repeat that. When I confirmed that on his bad days he was talking to people that weren't really there his response was, "Well, at least I'll never have no one to talk to."

Re:The WHO

[neoritter]

Stephen Hawking is a bad example, he was diagnosed with his disease at 21 and doctors said he had two years to live. He went into a depression and felt continuing is studies was pointless. It took him meeting a woman for him to have "something to live for."

Re:The WHO

[skatull]

My view on bucket list. It should be things to do to keep you alive, not things to do before you die.

Re:The WHO

[ArcadeMan]

His crystal will be red by then, it's not like he's going to have any choice about it.

Re:The WHO

[Ol Olsoc]

My thoughts exactly. He'll change his mind.

Quite likely, especially since his basic premise is wrong. Many people get dementia as they age, but many others don't. It is not inevitable. I know bright, active people in their 90s.

You see stories about people at 100 years old. It's news because it isn't that common. I know people who are active into their 90's. I know a lot more in their late 70's who are living on maintenance drugs and opiates, riddled with pain pretty well fuzzed out. A little older, and they are starting the dementia trip, with nursing homes at the ready to take their estates.

I think the problem is that people see the outliers, and assume that's how they will age. I don't want people determining the quality of my life by looking at the lucky ones wh oage gracefully. If I do - fine. But I watched enough family members die over a many year period. Not goiing to happen to me unless I catch a stroke that keeps me from exiting with some dignity.

Re:The WHO

[LennyDotCom]

"It took him meeting a woman for him to have "something to live for."

I find that very interesting
Ozzy Osborne, Jonny Cash, and others I can't remember at the moment
It seems finding the right woman has a great affect on some creative peoples lives

Re:The WHO

[Ol Olsoc]

My parents are both 75+.

And still doing fine.

Mine are dead. Doing okay for charcoal, I suppose.

As humans, I think that we tend to not see far past our noses. Your's being healthy hale and hearty parents doesn't really mean much, because as I note, for every human living a wonderful happy and healthy existence well beyond normal, there are those who don't.

And if this gentleman doesn't see much utility to living past 75, well, that's his business. If you want to fight kicking and screaming too the last breath, well, that's yours.

Re:The WHO

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fuck is this WRONG and it's not funny at all.

I worked in a dementia ward and I would not wish that on my worst enemy. It is a truly, staggeringly horrible way to go out. You don't know about the confusion, the pain, the mental trauma this disease causes, do you/ You dont just slip into a blissful state of forgetfulness, you are in a world of torment as your mind fucks you over.

Dementia is a very distressing, traumatic disease and the reason I support assisted suicide. There are things worse than death and dementia is one of them - the piss poor jokes about dementia serve to cover up the horror that patients truly experience. And it is horror, why do you think dementia patients are drugged to the gills?

Re:The WHO

[turp182]

You are absolutely correct about life expectancy. At birth, per the Social Security Administration's actuarial tables, men have a life expectancy of 76.1 and women 80.94.

From there it never appears to go down (it is flat a couple of times, age 9-10 for both genders; add actual age and expectancy then diff over time). At no point is your full life expectancy, per standardized tables, at or below 75. At 75 the men and women life expectancy's are 85.89 and 87.77 respectively. Women are expected to live longer until age 116, at which point men and women have an equal life expectancy...

Here's the table: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/...

I haven't used an actuarial life table in a couple of decades, fun stuff.

And to be clear, the expectancy is from that age, so adding them is correct. Here's the full note:
Note: The period life expectancy at a given age for 2010 represents the average number of years of life remaining if a group of persons at that age were to experience the mortality rates for 2010 over the course of their remaining life.

Re:The WHO

[AchilleTalon]

I don't believe Hawking is a bad example. The rational behind the reasoning of this guy is that Hawking should have die and let it go. And Hawking is proving the rational is wrong. It may be an extreme case, but it illustrates how the reasoning is wrong. Small contributions are still contributions and even if you no longer contribute, you still have people for whom you may be significant and nobody should decide at what age people should die or we should stop helping then to keep living. You have contributed life long and you are entitled to believe in your old days you have some right being taking care of. During your active life, you supported other old people and you should expect the same for you in your old days. Breaking this hidden social contract has consequences. Nobody will live his life the same way if he knows he will be treaten like a dog in his old days.

Re:The WHO

[dywolf]

He also had a nationalized health care system.
If he had lived in the US, I doubt very much we'd even know who he is.

Re:The WHO

[Ol Olsoc]

The fact that 3 out 4 of my grandparents lived into their late nineties (one died in a flu epidemic), one of my great grandparents lived well into her late nineties and my father is still going at 99 fills me with terror. There is no way that I want to live that long.

If I'm in real good shape, that's one thing. I suspect that I might end up needing a lot of Vicoden, because at 60, my old Ice Hockey days have caught up with me.

ACL, MCL, Broken ankle, torn ankle ligaments, osteoarthritis, trigger finger, lower back general injury, and tendonitis in the elbows.

But I'd do it all again. After all:

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW-- What a Ride!"

Attributed to Bill McKenna

Re:The WHO

[turp182]

And further, I have asked myself, Would I want to be one of my grandparents.

My grandmother is upper 80's, she can no longer form short or medium term memory. Meds help with anger which was an issue early on. She needs a walker and can be coherent (while asking the same questions over).

Her husband is my grandfather, Wib, he turned 90 about a week ago (my son is named after him, their actual name is Wilbur but they will always been known as Wib). He's got his mind and gets around fine, albeit with considerable pain in the entire body. I don't like that he still drives, but it is a necessity where he lives. And he still works, although most of his customers have died off. It is his routine. And he loves his wife and would certainly perish quickly if she passed.

My grandmother wrote a letter to her grandchildren in the 1980s, and she said "these bones are ready for the grave." I found it when I was about 10. We talked about it, but I don't remember the conversation, just the phrase. Burned in my mind. She was in her late 60's at the time.

Kurt Vonnegut said, on the Daily Show, that he would have already committed suicide if not for how it would affect his grandchildren. He passed a couple of years later.

So it goes.

Re:The WHO

[Fjandr]

I doubt the GP is drawing those conclusions from the distress of relatives, but rather from direct interaction with dementia patients.

You've never lived with someone who has advanced dementia, have you? I suppose you could be on the autism spectrum and be unable to understand body language that is obvious to everyone else. When you learn how mental trauma translates into actions, you can come to pretty obvious conclusions about the mental state of someone by those same actions, even if they are unable to articulate what's going on in their head.

When someone regularly descends into fits of sobbing when certain things happen, it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that, hey, there's something disturbing this person. You don't need to be in their head to figure out things with other obvious signs.

Re:The WHO

[Fjandr]

This is a personal decision, not one he's trying to push on others. Just as those who so choose have the option of living as long as their body holds out, so too should people have the option of not prolonging their life as long as possible.

I have inoperable cancer, and its effects on me are such that at some point I will no longer be able to manage the symptoms to the point that life will not be worth living. I don't want to spend months or years in a narcotic fog to dull the pain enough so I can just keep breathing. Short of spontaneous remission, I will at some point choose to end my own life rather than suffer needlessly. My family is aware of this decision, and I will inform them at the point it is necessary so there are no surprises. I would do the same were my mind degrading to the point it would be clear my existence contributed nothing more than consuming oxygen and taking up space. I've talked to many others who feel exactly the same way. I'm not trying to kill other people based on some arbitrary criteria, but I sure as hell won't accept being kept alive because "all life is sacred." It's not.

I agree, 100%

[NitzJaaron]

The thought of living to an age where I can no longer contribute anything of value to society, while simultaneously becoming a drain to those I love - both emotionally and financially - is not appealing to me at all.

Re:I agree, 100%

[Feyshtey]

Who determines when that time comes? Maybe it's 65. Maybe it's 55. Hell, for some it's in their 30's when they start getting fat and lazy.

Basically what this dickhead is saying is that if you're not valuable to someone for some tangible product, you should just die. He's probably also of the opinion that if you get Muscular Dystrophy in your 30's you should just check out. If you're born with Downs Syndrome, and will always have to be cared for you should just be aborted at birth (murdered). It's not like a severe mental handicap provides the ability to make a "rational" decision to take yourself out of everyone worries about you.

This philosophy relies on the premise that if you aren't providing money, or food, or talent in some field of productivity, that you are also unable to provide (and receive) love, joy and positive experiences. The philosophy is callous and inhuman, ironically coming from a man who will tell you all about how we should behave exactly in a specific way if it can "save just one life".

Emanuel is a dyed in the wool liberal progressive the likes of which Bernard Shaw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lBdyFvPps) would be quite proud of.

Re:I agree, 100%

[dywolf]

No. that is not what he said.
What he said was specifically about him and HIS plans and viewpoint.

He did not call for these same things to applied to any one else.
He did not call for people to be terminated at birth.

You are attributing a lot of FALSE statements to him.
You are not insightful.
You are a troll.

Re:I agree, 100%

[Yakasha]

This is the evil that Emanuel is describing from Bernard Shaw, a Fabian Socialist who defended the actions of the Nazi's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Did you not read, or not understand Shaw's writings on Eugenics? Do you even understand the context of that clip? Since neither clip you posted mentions it (and in fact the first seems to distort it), and neither do you, one can best assume that either you don't understand the context, or are purposefully omitting the context because you know it hurts your comparison "argument".

Shit, did you even bother to read Emanuel's article? He very specifically states

Since the 1990s, I have actively opposed legalizing euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide.

and

I am talking about how long I want to live and the kind and amount of health care I will consent to after 75.

[emphasis his]. He even specifically states that he will not try to end his life. Not suicide, not euthanasia, not doctor assisted suicide. Nothing. He will simply not attempt to prolong it any longer.

He's probably also of the opinion that if you get Muscular Dystrophy in your 30's you should just check out.

This is the gem of your failure. Emanuel specifically OPPOSES exactly that. See the quote above.

Even with your distorted view of Shaw, Emanuel's piece is nothing like Shaw's writings on eugenics. It is merely a statement of how he is choosing to face his own end of life, and an explanation of the logic he used to reach that decision. I consider your analysis & comparison a complete failure.

Re:I agree, 100%

[clarkkent09]

I thought liberals are about heavy regulation, not about the freedom to choose.

Re:I agree, 100%

[K. S. Kyosuke]

"Liberal, a.: Of political opinions: Favourable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy."

So yes, it is about freedom to choose (which seems to be pleonasm to me - is freedom about anything else than choosing?). In general, I got the impression that political liberals are in favor of regulation mostly when lack of regulation turns the situation in that particular area into a libertarian hell (by not limiting freedom of others to limit your freedom). I'm quite sure that this doesn't apply to a person's decision about the continuation of his own life.

His Life

[Anonymous Coward]

His choice. I for one intend to drink every bit of snake oil that I think will keep me alive a little longer, until such time that I decide I don’t want to live any more. George Carlin pretty much summed up my views on all this stuff with his "And don't be pulling any plugs on me either" bit.

Worried about tax dollars pointlessly keeping my mostly useless ass alive (yay for socialized medicine)... hell no. I’ve paid taxes most of my life, many of which have been wasted on stupid nonsense, they can waste a few on me.

I get it if people are in pain, or feel like they can no longer contribute anything, and sitting there watching TV all day just isn’t doing it for them. If you are tired of life, fine, I’m all for giving people the option. On the opposite end you’ve got my Grandfather who is well into his 80’s and just finished remodeling his bathroom, and my friend’s Grandmother who while physically is showing her age, can still hold her end of a conversation, enjoys spending time with people, plays cards, etc.

Only 5 years of retirement

[irrational_design]

If I'm lucky I'll be able to retire by 70. 50 years of work and then 5 years of retirement? That sucks.

Re:Only 5 years of retirement

[ceoyoyo]

Enjoy your life, don't wait for your retirement. I don't see an especially good chance of ever being able to retire. Plus there are a lot of things I want to do while I can comfortably walk for eight hours a day, see, hear and smell well, and take a hit or two.

Quality, not quantity

[Crypto Cavedweller]

"I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them." Ian Fleming, author of James Bond

Re:Quality, not quantity

[Chas]

Pretty much this.

The points he addresses have nothing to do with age and everything to do with "quality of life".

So, if we could, somehow, manage to prolong life *AND* maintain quality of life, great!

Otherwise, yes, growing decrepit, feeble-witted, etc and wishing for an end is something people have realized for a long, long time now.

Like the myth of Tithonus

I propose the Extreme test.

[gurps_npc]

Every year, past 70, take up a new extreme sport. One day you will simply forget to pull the parachute cord. Go out with a bang, doing something that will make the news "80 year old surfs Tsunami"

Re:I propose the Extreme test.

[Spy Handler]

Or for those who want to keep working and be productive:

If you are a liberal, do volunteer work saving lives in Ebola-infested areas or some other place with a humanitarian crisis in Africa or Middle East.

If you are a Republican, volunteer for an army tour of duty in Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria. Yes being old could be a problem. However those powered exoskeletons could make you strong.

It really all depends

[dixonpete]

If you have good genes and have taken care of yourself 75 can be a no-brainer. Personally I'd prefer a wait and see approach and see how things pan out. My mother is a vibrant 80 yr old who's currently having a lot of fun trekking around the planet. Sometimes you get lucky.

Right...

[ceoyoyo]

Because exercising, eating well and being mentally engaged don't help keep you healthy to an older age.

Re:Right...

[bluefoxlucid]

The funny thing is mental exercise doesn't strengthen the brain. The brain is not a muscle; it doesn't become stronger with use.

People think I'm a genius. It took me forever to realize, of course, they're right. Of course I'm a genius. It all makes sense. I didn't put my brain on some kind of mind-treadmill to get this way; it just is.

Being a genius is all about technique. The brains of great memorizers like Dominic O'Brien or Ben Pridmore are exactly like the brains of the average human. The brains of genius thinkers are similarly a near-match for your average flaming dumbass. It's all technique.

Each time you interact with a piece of information, it becomes more fixed in your mind: the more you use English or Japanese, the better you get with assembling or interpreting sentences in those languages, even though you won't get better at other languages that way. When you study a new language, you steadily pick up habits conducive to learning new languages, internally and externally. When you study math, the mathematical formula become entrenched in your mind; new formula work on the same concepts, and thus are readily understood.

Mnemonics are a good place to start: with immediate access to piles of information comes immediate association with new information and new problems. Just as with math or a language, you strengthen your mind's grasp on mnemonic techniques each time you use them. Just as with developing habits to learn languages, you can develop mnemonic techniques like Method of Loci and Major System, or habitual study methods like SQ3R. Like any new habit--driving, a new sport, Go or the inferior Chess, novel writing--it will be exhausting at first, consuming analytic resources and activating the energy-hungry prefrontal cortex; with use, the habit is encoded in the energy-light basal ganglia, and becomes natural and easy.

By encoding these behaviors into your study habits, you train yourself to take in, make meaningful, categorize, organize, store, recall, and put to use new information rapidly and efficiently. The immense and exhausting effort of learning new things still happens, but it happens for a much shorter time, and at much reduced load. Because you remember more of what you're learning, it becomes more meaningful: whatever you just learned in the previous section is memorized more completely, and can be recalled to explain and give meaning to what you're learning in the current section, thus making both more memorable and strengthening their encoding in your brain.

The ability to quickly learn new things makes you smart, unlike normal, dumb people who can't learn shit. The ability to quickly recall what you know as related to what you want to accomplish is the ability to quickly solve problems, which also makes you smart. Apply your knowledge effectively and you stand out from all others. You can even compare IQ tests with every abstract and logical problem you've ever seen, applying familiar reasoning to familiar problems, and familiar analysis to unfamiliar problems, scoring higher on these tests than you otherwise would--and then you can pass a MENSA exam, and have a framed placard stating you're a certified genius.

Memory capacity, and all implied by it, don't decrease with age. Consider that as a final point: bluntly playing the same mind games (e.g. sudoku) won't keep you smart; but your brain won't decay unless taken by serious disease.

Ageing can be seen as a treatable disease.

[Zeio]

I don't think there are many dreams of futures without some form of life extension.

Some wax poetic and philosophic about how life extension is like the One Ring stretching out Bilbo and Gollum, but with a properly enlightened society with strong family ties multiple generations co-habiting could provide an awesome view of the past, living history, to help teach the next generation.

I see ageing as a currently inescapable fact of life. I also know there are 400 year old clams. I think we should attempt to treat ageing as a disease, who that each life is valuable and worth saving and cherish the time the elders spend with the young to bring a different (but sometimes wrong and thought provoking) perspective.

There was an episode of TNG (Half a Life) where people who got to a certain age killed themselves. I was strongly in favor of letting the scientist live, but the show used the family and social norms and mores to make this a hard show to call black and white on.

So let's think to do the opposite of Logan's Run. Lets dream big and not run to the grave like its a cradle.

Speak for yourself, Mr. Emanuel

[c0d3g33k]

You lost me when you assigned an arbitrary number as your cutoff rather than defining the cutoff on reasonably definable measures of physical and mental health. I exercise, eat healthy, avoid smoking and drugs etc. because these activities provide *measurable* benefits to my health based on measurements made by my doctor. Not to mention that I feel better.

Does the fact that I do things that measurably improve my health and prolong my life as long as possible mean I am "obsessed"? Does "I don't smoke, overeat, take drugs or engage in dangerous life-threatening activities (extreme sports, for example)" mean I am obsessed? I find it completely rational, and my insurance company sure loves it because I'm a low risk according to their actuarial tables. Because science.

If I take your advice, I should just sit around and passively wait to die after reaching a certain age rather than doing things that measurably increase my ability to be "vibrant and engaged". Sorry, but no thanks. Save me a place when I get to the Pearly Gates - I might be a little late to the party. And when I get there, we're going to blow the roof off of that sucker.

Bah

[Charliemopps]

I hate fatalism. My goal is to live forever. I'll go out kicking and screaming every bionic body part I can get.

Watch this: https://www.ted.com/talks/aubr...

You can all die if you want, leave me out of it.

I understand, but FTS

[RedLeg]

I have no desire to be a veggie, to feel my mental faculties drain away from me as I age. I can imagine nothing worse.

On the other hand, 75 is an arbitrary number. I'm 53, and will match wits with any of you. Both sides of my family have had folks live past 100, the most noteworthy being the oldest living graduate of the US Military academy. I will tell you that in his last days, he enjoyed playing poker one night of the week, drinking bourbon and branch, and hosting a weekly bridge game, all for gentlemen's stakes. I would not EVER have put money on the table and played against him, as he was sharp as a tack until the day that he died.

He, and the other members of his generation, lived to their 90s and beyond without the benefits of our modern understanding of health.

I fully expect, and am planning to enjoy my 100s.

75? Pfthhh!

-Red

Re:I knew it! Death Panels ahoy!

[LesPeters]

ST:TNG - Half a Life. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt07... [imdb.com]

A man goes to the Senior Center

[Latent Heat]

(also on topic with respect to aging)

Woman says to him, "You look new here, where were you before?"

Man says, "I just was released from a long prison term . . . for killing my wife."

"Oh, so you're single, then!"

False Premise

[JerryLove]

"It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic."

For example: See the cast of the Expendables.

Emanuel says that Americans seem to be obsessed with exercising, doing mental puzzles, consuming various juice and protein concoctions, sticking to strict diets, and popping vitamins and supplements, all in a valiant effort to cheat death and prolong life as long as possible.

I believe this assertion to be false. Doing mental puzzles will not make you live longer, and exercise mostly prevents causes of death like falling or having a heart attack.

People don't do these things to live longer... they do these things to live better. So that, when they are 75, they won't be... how did the OP put it? "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic"

My grandfater was still running his store in his 70s. My grandmother was daycare to several of her great-grandkids. One of my martial arts instructors is in his 80s (and I would lose a fight with him). The premise is BS, and the "75" number is arbitrary. Further: it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he isn't exercising, if he isn't eating well, if he isn't keeping his mind active, he is more likely to be "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic".

Re:Not Everyone is Successful

[Stormy Dragon]

What makes you think I don't consider myself one of the "feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" already?

Re:ask not for whom the bell doesn't chime

[Mr. Slippery]

I guess you don't have any grandparents who live alone, but can no longer reliably identify their own children....You are so deep into denial about the reality of aging

The "reality of aging" does include old people completely destroyed by aging. And we need to get serious about dealing with that, letting people check out when their life ain't no more fun.

But that reality also includes 90-something karate masters who are still practicing.

The "functional limitations" of which the author speaks can, to some degree, be mitigated by lifestyle. So can the supposed "lack of creativity" -- the problem isn't aging, it's stale ideas. Learn something new. Change fields.

My maternal grandfather was still quite aware, oriented, and active in his church at 90. And the heart disease that ultimately did him in could quite likely have been partially prevented or reversed with better lifestyle habits. My paternal grandfather was a bit short of his 79th birthday when complications from coronary bypass surgery (again, largely preventable) did him in. He never really recovered, emotionally, from the loss of his wife (could have used better social support, more community connections), but he was in no way crippled or suffering from dementia in his final years.

So given the example of my grandparents, with good dietary and exercise habits, good social connections, and a little medical help I can hope to get into my 80s with my brains mostly intact. (If we don't completely fsck up the planet, and if we make a few medical breakthroughs, with a little luck I hope to see the dawn of the 22nd century -- I'll only have to reach 131 to do that.)

Of course, I could also get run over by a bus this afternoon, or diagnosed with some particularly nasty cancer next month. One never knows.

Health is cheaper, less painful.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

The reason for the diets, supplements and exercise aren't to extend life, but to enhance life's quality.

You can be 75 and a cripple, in pain and bankrupted by health care costs or...

You can be be 75, run marathons, be fairly pain free and pay relatively little for health care.

I know people in both situations. To some degree, it's your choice.

Re:Solution: Exoskeleton

[JaredOfEuropa]

That's fine until the brats from next door hack into your exoskeleton and make you do the Gangnam routine for 48 hours straight.

Re:Why put a number on it?

[Moof123]

Yep. A much better argument would be to encourage people to have clear expectations for old age, and to make options to check out much easier. I would welcome the ability to choose my exit day while I still have the faculties to do so. The US's lousy options are deplorable. Old folks have few options in most states to pull their own plug when they determine the time is right.

In my Grandmother's case she knew it was time a few weeks before she died, but ended up in a lot of misery and humiliating circumstances for her final days due to a lack of legal options. Little has made me angrier at the religious set than listening to my grandmother beg God to let he die, and there being no legal avenue for any of her family to grant that wish thanks to those selfish bastards keeping euthanasia illegal.