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Too Many Kids Quit Science Because They Don't Think They're Smart
An anonymous reader writes: Carol Dweck, a psychology professor at Stanford, has done years of study on how students' attitudes affect their academic achievements. Her work began at the height of the "self-esteem movement," when parents were told to praise their kids' brainpower at every turn. But Professor Dweck found that praise for intelligence or talent — relatively immutable characteristics — only turned kids off of trying subjects they perceived as difficult, like math and science. Praising effort, perseverance, and problem-solving strategies works better. She also says, "There is such a thing as too much praise, we believe." Instead, she suggests engaging with kids about the process itself, showing interest and encouragement when they talk about how they did something.
There. I said what we're all thinking.
Who the fuck cares.
Nobody is going to give them a job anyways.
IIRC, this is the other side of the Dunning-Kruger effect from the better known, "Lake Wobegon effect" side.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
This is where the whole "precious little snowflake" thing came from. People are only as smart as they think they are. This isn't the first study to show that. People will subconsciously cause themselves to fail in order to fit in with their self image. For all we don't like people getting praised for doing ok it's necessary for children (and adults) to build a positive self image before they can hope to succeed.
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Psychology professor proves that parents retarded their children's development by listening to psychology professors. But totally has the right answer this time.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
"Too many grown-ups go into politics because they think they are smart"
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
"Too many kids..."
That implies there's a "right" number of kids sticking with science. Does the submitter mean that we need more eternal post-docs who can't get real funding?
I'm doing the same with my kid. I grew up in the middle of all this. My parents basically told me I was a genius from the time I was a toddler. The result? I didn't even try. It was all beneath me. I got out of high-school with a C average. Luckily I actually was smart enough to do very well on the ACT after I realized maybe I'd screwed up my grades.
My kid gets praised for effort. Telling someone they are smart is no more beneficial than praising them for being handsome, or tall. It's something they have no control over and cannot improve. So why praise it? Praise something they can control, perseverance.
My parents always told me I couldn't do math because I didn't have the mind for it. Eventually after college I succeeded in math after learning to time manage and do homework. Largest regret of my life and now I have a $100k pol sci degree... Bleah
"There is such a thing as too much praise"
I think this is a really good study. It's among the most important studies of recent times! The authors should be proud of themselves and deserve commendations for their work.
you are, apparently, illiterate. The research, fluff article and TFS all say that it works to praise grit, determination and effort, not talent. This study shows nothing of what you assert.
I don't have any cites. I got a psychology degree years ago, during the "praise everything" movement. And it was known at the time that it didn't work. "You are so smart" said to a child is heard as "everything should be easy because you are already good at it." This was known at the time. The correction is "You are such a good problem solver" where the child hears that they can solve every problem, but must work at it. This has an effect closer to the intended "you are so smart" praise.
This was known 20 years ago, but it's take 20 years for the change to make it to public knowledge.
Learn to love Alaska
Look at their school grades, look at their entertainment, look at their parents, look at their peers how could they be smart.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Attention spans are dwindling.
If we are talking about current events, this is "new" news in the sense that "xml" is new news.
The most cited paper on this particular topic was printed the same year they released Windows 98!
We are not dealing with a news site anymore, we are dealing with and ad factory that pads between the ads with AP articles.
Have you actually talked to any people in the country?
Morons are the majority. And the morons are in charge.
You have to actually study things that might be difficult in order to learn?
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
So, basically ... you're good enough, smart enough, and dog gone it, people like you, then?
You also have to be careful you don't start rewarding mediocrity just for the sake of it ... because it's not necessarily good to just praise them for nothing.
Not everyone agreed with the self esteem movement where everything they did was awesome, even if it wasn't.
Because they didn't always understand that in the real world there's seldom a cookie for a half assed job.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Speak roughly to your little boy
and beat him when he sneezes
he only does it to annoy
because he knows it teases.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... ]
Every child should read Alice in Wonderland. It's not easy reading, but they will get it. It presents a complex world that is not easy for young Alice, but she has pluck and forges ahead. It is an adventure that requires courage and confidence and a tremendous example for young people- boys and girls.
Challenge your children. Give them Poe, Swift, R.L. Stevenson, quality scifi, etc. Give them fine music & jazz, fine art and the opportunity to create art, give them geography, history, dinosaurs and bioscience. Don't numb their brains with superhero TV & games.
There is more to education than job training. There is life. Give them a head start. Love them.
...omphaloskepsis often...
A large number of the world's best minds seem to be what they are due to fear. Albert Einstein had a huge reason to push himself to a status that enabled him to leave Germany. But even more common are the whiz bang scientists that come from places that have stark poverty threatening everyone at every turn. Even in the US working and living conditions for blue collar and no collar workers are so nasty that some people will make incredible efforts to never have to work at those jobs. But the twisted part of the situation is that there are many people working in high status jobs who can not do what the working class does. We hear of the student who is now in a high position that spent a summer sweeping out a dinner or doing lawn work. But the fact is they could not do it for a career. Nor could they tolerate the low wages these jobs provide. They are mentally crippled by requiring status and admiration of others. The next problem is that almost all of us will need a sewer worker or a tomato picker a lot more often than we need a doctor or professor. In general we could get along without any doctors at all for years but if agricultural labor is so vital that shutting down for a week or two would destroy almost all of us. But the lie that we call supply and demand has no reality on these issues. Some people get paid big money and others do not. The need for their work or degree of supply of their labor is not related to the true value of their labor. The Russian revolution made this evident in their own way. Wearing glasses or failure to have a laborers calluses and scars on the hands were reason enough to be executed. Obviously that was stupid but it does show how frustrated the people were over the pay for laborers.
The reality is unless you are one of the tiny group in scinece and math classes you won't get a job anyway. Hire a C student Engineer. No I don't think so. Many of the science and tech jobs are tied to production and that's gone and it is not coming back. Prepare to work in fast food until that's gone done better faster and cheaper by robots.
You don't praise them for being smart but for trying hard.
If they think they are smart and the new material hard, they assume they are not smart enough. And you can't get smarter.
If they try hard and the new material is hard, they assume they have to try harder. And you can always try harder.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
If we don't want people to quit science because they don't think they're smart enough, then why don't we reform our culture so that actually being right is more important than appearing to be right, while convincing people that being smart isn't special instead of convincing them that they're not smart? It's not the parents, teachers, nor curricula. It's the fact that the moment a person opens their mouth, strikes a key, or puts utensil on paper to speak, somebody out there is already primed to have an ego contest with them.
If you do research or develop math or code, then it's almost better to just post your work someplace and invite people to take it than to get massively in debt, engage in a series of ego contests, spend a decade helping professors with their research, work to build a name for yourself, and then finally just contribute whatever little thing you did. If contribution to human knowledge and development didn't require jumping through a quarter of a lifetime of arbitrary hoops then people would stick with it. Those whom elect for an academic life rather than capitalist treadmill want to benefit humanity and get a little recognition, rather than be a tool for somebody else to leverage.
Long story short, just let people flex their smarts and creative muscles, keep what works, and give credit for ideas' origins, and this wouldn't be an issue. Everything about our culture, economy, governance, and institutions of education discourage that. Innovation should be free as expression because that's all it is when you get down to it.
Too Many Kids Quit Science Because They Don't Think They're Smart
The problem is, too many of them are right.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
The importance of feeling stupid: http://jcs.biologists.org/cont...
The world is magnificent and wondrous and as a scientists you get to learn more about that wonder than everyone else. Yes the way these tribes of not quite monkeys have set life up it's not all kittens and puppydogs - it's a hard slog all the time for most of us. So what. You get to learn at time when we know about evolution and relativity and quantum mechanics to name but a few things. Things that 300 years ago were unknown to all. Steal the moments you can.
Disclaimer: when someone accomplishes something by using their intelligence or similar such traits, that should be praised, definitely, as that is an effort.
In fact, i had created a lots of one liners, jokes, and stories around most of the subjects like algorithms, theory of computation, machine learning, physics and mathematics. I found the courses then were fun to deliver, and people never walked out of the lectures, boosting my morale.
... teaching it are clueless and the textbooks are written by people that have somewhere along the way missed the objective of the text... which is to teach young people science.
The emphasis is on "teach" not list fucking facts, tell them to write them down, and say "there will be a test on THOR's Day". That is what they so often do and it is no wonder everyone gets bored and passes out. Do more experiments. Do more labs. Do more projects.
The problem with projects? They're more expensive. They're messy. They take up space. And some moron is going to burn his eyebrows off.
One problem... they work and are actually instructive as to why all those facts and equations are more then random doodles some twat wrote into the book just to fuck with people.
Do the experiments or don't even presume to teach science.
*drops mike and walks out*
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
If they are told that they are smart, they will get a mind-set that says: "I'm smart, I don't need to work at this."
A wealthy friend of the family once told me: "There are two ways to become wealthy: out smart the other guy. The rest of us out work him."
*** Don't be dull.***
Yea well, the thing is they don't actually HAVE to be smart to do science. Yes, yes, there are the super smart star scientists that are always in the spotlight, but the vast majority of scientists aren't super smart. No, you can't be a total dumbass, but average or slightly better intelligence will do just fine. Majority of real science is boring as hell most of the time. You might prepare some test setup for a year, then the grand experiment happens in a couple of hours/seconds/days/nanoseconds, and then you get to analyze the results for another year. Most of the science done is done by really average people. Already kinda shows they are not too smart to do it with the money they get for doing it ;-)
The cliche of the smart kid who sails through high school and then when he/she hits the first challenging course in college has no resources, no understanding of what it takes to work hard and finally succeed. And wanders off, feeling stupid.
Later in life they realize that smart people who achieve a lot work really hard. Even Richard Feynman worked on physics all the time, when he was not playing bongos and chatting up the wives of colleagues. Einstein worked on his theory of gravity for ten years, and said "the waste paper basket is the most important tool of the scientist".
Except when talent works hard. Then talent beats hard work every time.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Had a guy in my office a couple weeks ago. Cleans chimneys. This year he's going to clear about $500k after expenses and taxes. I just designed a 3000SF garage for his and his wife's cars. Had another guy a couple of months ago who does insulation. He's building a 12,000 SF home I helped design and just consulted with him on three large barn buildings for his growing exotic bird collection.
Seriously, the money really is in the trades - mostly because all the "smart" people are doing 9-5 for big companies and thinking that 100k is a big deal.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
One thing I've always felt was wrong with STEM fields was the prevalence of the "weed-out" philosophy embraced by teachers/professors and supported by people who are naturally successful in STEM. It's the belief that if someone has any difficulty in tech fields, they're "inherently" unable to ever "get" the subject and they should just give up or be axed from the relevant classes. If we actually spent some effort trying to help people who struggle in STEM rather than trying to categorize the "able" and "unable" people, we might have more success in building up our STEM workforce.
Not everyone who struggles at first with STEM is a moron or inherently defective. That mentality needs to be erased from the community before we can fix this issue.
At least here in Europe, it's rather the other way round. Kids get into science because they think they're smart, although they're not.
Ok well, they don't really get into science... they get into sociology, psychology and history...
Carol Dweck, a professor of psychology at Stanford University in California. Over the past 20 years, Dweck has conducted dozens of studies about praise’s impact on students’ self-esteem and academic achievement
Where?What was really learned by Dweck looking at only students in the US, or the state of CA? Perhaps the results are due to the "you're awesome" bubble we raise our kids in today in the US.
News blast! Most people are average. Smart is not what really matters. We want intelligence plus smart. If you don't know the difference then figure it out.
So when you are whining about "lack of diversity" in the tech industry.....YOU MIGHT WANT TO BEGIN HERE!! With kids in school!
Don't need to be smart, just smater than you.
Miss Tick sniffed. “You could say this advice is priceless,” she said. “Are you listening?”
“Yes,” said Tiffany.
“Good. Nowif you trust in yourself”
“Yes?”
“and believe in your dreams”
“Yes?”
“and follow your star” Miss Tick went on.
“Yes?”
“you’ll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren’t so lazy. Good-bye.”
Terry Prattchet - "The wee free man" [disk-world book #30]
I think most kids are smart enough to realize that if they specialize in math there's absolutely zero jobs available and in science it's incredibly unlikely that they'll get a job. If they do, they'll definitely have to move to take the job. You specialize in IT, you go wherever you want.
Define "too many"
Too many kids quit science because of the way in which it's taught. High-school science classes quickly leave the practical realm for the hidden/theoretical realm, for want of a better word. This hidden realm contains the deeper concepts but the average high-school student doesn't have the resources to play around with the knowledge e.g. electron microscopes, spectrometers, or particle colliders. Kids are being required to regurgitate equations on command or memorize biological taxonomies. That's major boring sh*t. I venture to say that more kids want to be involved in a FIRST competition or a Mythbusters-style of learning. Kids want to blow stuff up. They want to push buttons and see the effects. They want to build things. Don't believe me? I can recall the experience of visiting the Ontario Science Centre back in the mid 1970s. You could play around with pretty much EVERYTHING. The place was always packed with people.
http://mindsetonline.com/whati...
become Space Nutters. Simple enough.
There was a thread of this title on a article about they should get into some aspects of calculus instead of endless arithmetic problems that become more like punishment like in the army (long repetition of menial work). I gotta go back and find that article (like everybody else I didn't fully read it). Although arithmetic is important, having lots of "drill and kill" tests are not. I think they should get into drawing curves on graphs, figure out the areas under the curves, slopes of lines, etc. and this will also be fun with art.
mfwright@batnet.com
In my high school, the 'smart' students with good marks were basically forced into the sciences and basically convinced they'd be wasting their lives otherwise.
Instead I wasted 2 years of my life studying something I had no interest in. Now I'm a successful freelance writer with a decent income and lots of spare time on my hands.
Math is hard, I'm a girl.
Ashara Zavros was "easily discouraged by difficult things" - good name for this condition!
we need to rethink your priorities in our societies.
When I was a kid we all know who scientist were and what jobs they did today im not so sure of that. I really don't think its a matter of kids not thinking there smart enough as more what they would be doing as a scientist. My age was easy NASA today??Ebola? that's all IMO
Jack of all trades,master of none
Any kid that is contemplating going into science is smart enough. The fact that you are interested in it in the first place means everything and that should definitely be supported. We need to get those kids that don't realize that science is interesting to them.
How about letting the kids do what they like?
Why are we pushing them into things they don't want to do?
Seems a recipe for disaster.
He gets to sit on his ass in a lab doing science instead of labouring his ass off to feed himself or risking injury in some wet cold forest hunting for starved rabbits for food. Yes, it's so bad. Life sucks. Wtf more do you need than food and warmth? The basic needs are right there. If you need people around you, sex, or other human contact it's very available, there are literaly billions people feeling the same. First rule about being happy is REALLY figuring out what would make you happy.
Too many adults leave sciences because they can't earn a decent living to support themselves or their families.
to self-discipline go on to lead healthy productive lives. That's sorta the problem. We don't need to build an education system catering to the go-getters. They'll figure it out on their own thank you very much.
Have you stopped to ask yourself _why_ people don't give up? Have you given any serious thought to how human psychology and brain chemistry affect education? The people at the head of the precious snowflake movement _have_. And time and again what they've found is that children are vulnerable. They often get very little positive reinforcement. Their parents don't like them, didn't want to have them, but were too socially constrained to give them up for adoption or use birth control.
Education is _hard_. It's a hard thing. The educators you're berating are doing a hard thing because they haven't given up. You, otoh, are all too ready to give up when a kid doesn't just succeed on his own...
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
Casteism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://tech.slashdot.org/story...
http://rediff.com/business/sli...
Casteism
Intelligence? Talent? No, the ultra-rich got to where they are through luck and brutality.
http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/the-self-attribution-fallacy
Casteism
Ask any student or teacher that knew me in junior high or high school and they'd have thought I'd be some mathematician or engineer or programmer making millions while receiving a pile of awards. They'd tell me I was smart, my grades would tell me the same, and any testing they did for placement into advanced programs would tell me the same. I didn't lose interest because I didn't think I could do it - I could then and still could. I lost interest because I also had potential as a pro athlete or musician, and actually wanted to do those, but no one gave the same encouragement there. (Also, the latter had more screaming female fans and tend to date more models and actresses.)
Surely I couldn't be the only one - yeah, I'm good at science, but I don't *want* to do science. It's hard to get behind a study that claims someone loses self-confidence for being praised for something they know they're good at.
Looks like 3.4 million Indians have successfully injected Caste system in USA.
Caste is like Cancer. It cannot be Cured.
Casteism
As per research studies there is no such thing as intrinsic motivation.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/inmotiv.htm
Casteism