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As Amazon Grows In Seattle, Pay Equity For Women Declines
reifman writes Amazon's hiring so quickly in Seattle that it's on pace to employ 45,000 people or seven percent of the city. But, 75% of these hires are male. While Seattle women earned 86 cents per dollar earned by men in 2012, today, they make only 78 cents per dollar. In "Amageddon: Seattle's Increasingly Obvious Future", I review these and other surprising facts about Amazon's growing impact on the city: we're the fastest growing — now larger than Boston, we have the fastest rising rents, the fourth worst traffic, we're only twelfth in public transit, we're the fifth whitest and getting whiter, we're experiencing record levels of property crime and the amount of office space under construction has nearly doubled to 3.2 million square feet in the past year.
Here we go again. Timothy, are you angling for a gig at Jezebel?
I bet Amazon has a lot of computer-programmer hires, and would love to hire more women and to pay them computer-programmer salaries to program computers. And I know that there are women programmers out there. I've seen and worked with several in my career. Like coders in general, some are incompetent, some are incredibly competent. The big difference is that not a single female programmer I've worked with was white, or even native to the United States.
Just my $0.03. Blame Computer Engineer Barbie if you'd like. :P
Except that when you look at pay equity with relation to what role/job they pay, this feminist bullshit disappears.
When you look at the overall without understanding it at all.....it looks like we live in a sexist society because women choose more emotionally rewarding careers than financially rewarding.
This article is dripping with emotional white wash and lacking of cold hard facts. Why does it even get published on /.? It's the whole issue of: does correlation equate to causal factor?
Not sure why this needs to be published in a techy forum and why Amazon is being dragged through the mud in this posters eyes.
Stop making me want to gouge my eyes out when I look at billboards. That is all.
Slashdot: polical-correct leftists anti-freedom crap that no one cares about.
Amazon should be free to hire who them like, even only bald man, or only black man, or only white bald tall women - it's property and freedom that we gained (and now lost again back to communist-socialism). And you are free to criticize them for such choices.
How ever, I am preety sure, they simply do hire the muscular and durable employees which turn out to be man;
Also flash news, weman do not prefer hard physical work all that much you know.
What next, article about gender gap in the breastfeeding/surrogate industry?
I have friends that work at Amazon have interviewed there a couple times myself.
The confrontational culture is there, and it's "on purpose." It was chosen to make sure that they have a large number of smart people who speak up when there is a better idea afoot. It has a cost; the Amazonians know it has a cost in making the workplace more intense, and even more contentious, and they believe it's worth it.
If you make a choice like that, and it happens that in your society one gender more often has the emotional characteristics compatible with that atmosphere it doesn't mean you are expressing ANY opinion about the other gender.
The Amazon interview process: being grilled by legions of the semi-competent, people-skills impared, with the actually interesting question a rare diamond in the rough, is something most sane people should run away from. It is a compliment to any gender that they outperform another gender by correctly choosing to run away from this.
What Amazon has not yet invented and valued are the socially well adjusted nerds. By optimizing for "nerds that solve problems just like our current nerds" they are neglecting the people, of both genders, that could make that a better place to work.
That women more often figure this out in the interview process and men take an average of a year, isn't really discrimination.
On the other hand, ladies, if you're looking for a husband, try Seattle!
People are moving to Seattle intentionally? What the hell is wrong with them? Is it like the ugly friend effect, where they only look good in comparison to Detroit?
>we have the fastest rising rents, the fourth worst traffic, we're only twelfth in public transit, we're the fifth whitest and getting whiter, we're experiencing record levels of property crime and the amount of office space under construction has nearly doubled to 3.2 million square feet in the past year.
Sounds like the sort of great town that everyone wants to live in. I think women are just too smart to choose to move to a shithole.
it has the worst weather!
Again, another article about the sufferings of women in America, the most privileged class of people to have ever existed.
A relative of mine is a Veterinarian.
When he graduated in the '80s 80% of Vets were male. They worked from 8:00 AM to 7:00 PM or longer - often six days a week.
Today, 80% of Vets are female. Rather than working long hours, they often choose to have a family and work part-time. The net result is that 4-5 female vets do the job of one male vet.
This is not a bad thing. They get to have both a career and be at home for their families.
The net result though, it that their incomes are substantially lower than a male vet's would be.
Is this wrong? No. Is this a new way of having a work-life balance? Yes.
*** Don't be dull.***
The entire 'article' reeks of class envy and jealousy nothing more than that. It's sounds like a socialist cry to arms more than anything else.
Women are not paid less if they are doing the same jobs and spending the same time doing them as men do, otherwise businesses would only hire women if they could actually pay them less to do the same exact shit.
Amazon is a company, it's not its job 'to create diversity' in any way, it already does more than any socialist ever could to grow the economy by hiring people, by paying them wages, by offering cheap products to everybody, including those very women and minorities that this garbage 'article' is yapping about.
The women who use Amazon likely already save more than 25% on their purchases compared to what they would have to pay if there was no Amazon at all. If 'investing in public transit' made Amazon money and was actually fucking legal in the fucking socialist/fascist ran cities, Amazon could certainly get into that business, but it's not clear that it could profit a retailer to get into transportation business. Should a chip manufacturer get into sewer business? Should a pastry chef get into electronics repair business?
Just because more white qualified males apply to Amazon than minorities or women do doesn't mean that this somehow is Amazon's problem to fix and that it is even a problem in the first place. I am sure there are jobs that minorities and women apply for in overwhelming numbers compared to white males.
If Amazon is not retaining people at the same rate as Microsoft for example (mentioned in this garbage 'article'), it doesn't mean Amazon is mistreating anybody, it means that Amazon gives people an opportunity to find a low level job that others wouldn't provide to those very people. Can the people that are hired by Amazon be hired by Microsoft? I doubt it very much. However once they worked for Amazon maybe their chances of being hired by other companies increase quite a bit, after all, if a year later people quit it means they can now find better jobs that they couldn't a year before, so Amazon is doing a fine job training people, giving them the lower run of the ladder to step on.
If it was up to the author of this garbage 'article', Amazon maybe would have the same hiring practices as Microsoft, but then where would all the people that Amazon hires right now find their first jobs?
Philanthropy has nothing on running a successful business and providing products/services that people are willing to pay for. It's easy to give away money to people, it's hard making money. Making money requires providing enough customer satisfaction to offset your costs, giving money away requires nothing of the sort. Everybody likes getting free lunch, but paying for lunch means that the people paying value it enough to give their money in exchange for that lunch and it's much harder to provide that type of satisfaction than to provide free money. Philanthropy destroys capital that otherwise can be used to increase real customer satisfaction and that's a crime as far as I am concerned. Africa will not get better with hand outs, it will get better with real business growth and opportunities provided by business growth.
As to the fucking ridiculous advices from this garbage 'article', they stink socialism so high, it's should be embarrassing even to most socialists. 'Advocate for an appropriate tax system in Seattle and Washington state'. WTF is an 'appropriate tax system'? AFAIC the only appropriate tax system is 0 tax, all other tax systems are inappropriate. I hope Amazon advocates for that. 'Lead in diversity both in Seattle and worldwide'? What? How about lead in customer satisfaction. 'Lead on supporting economic programs that make it easier for lower income, lower skilled Seattleites to stay in the city'? Fucking hell, how about save more money and build more business so that all the lower income folks can save even more by buying at Amazon and some of them work there anyway.
This 'article' is what is wrong with America and the Western world today, total, uninhibited socialist crapola that needs to die in fire, but instead it's spreading like worst type of cancer.
You can't handle the truth.
Good luck affording a house anywhere near the city center, and good luck with the commute if you live further away, I5 is a daily disaster or comedy of accidents depending on your point of view. Exhibit #1 http://imgur.com/a/CzsVe
I work in downtown Seattle, luckily I live (rent) near a link light rail station and avoid the traffic and delayed buses.. But those days will soon be over, we bought a house.. quite a challenge to find something decent on one income with an "OK" commute.. we found something in Puyallup (which is about 30miles south of Seattle) about 2 miles from the Sounder train station. My commute will now be just over an hour, but at least its still by train which is not affected by traffic. Eventually I might find a job in Tacoma which is ~20mins away.
Here’s a hot tip for Bezos and other technology leaders — if you want to hire more women, offer your competitors’ female employees more money and fund an ongoing array of collegiate technology scholarships for women and minorities.
Really, that's such a hot tip! Poach women from other companies! I'll bet Bezos never thought of that! On the other hand, the author isn't trying to make sense, he's just trying to get people to click on his article, so I guess he succeeded.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
How much do women in Seattle earn for each hour of work in the same position? And what proportion of women applicants are hired vs. male applicants? Let's keep it honest, alright?
The Seattle area has 3.6 million people [1]. 45k is only 1.2% of that.
That puts them about the same size of Microsoft in the Seattle area today. [2]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_metropolitan_area
[2] http://news.microsoft.com/facts-about-microsoft/
Can someone explain to me how a city getting whiter is necessarily worse for the city?
Is there a specific race that is missing? If you made it 30% Chinese, 30% White and 30% Indian is that good enough, or do you need some minimal proportion of every race?
And is it really "race" we need -- ie, if we bulk up on suburbanized, native-born nonwhites (like Mindy Kaling or Aziz Ansari as an example) does that really count, or is what we're looking for some kind of non-white cultural influence, so non-whites who act white don't count?
Please, someone tell me what the ideal racial combination is.
Just saying...
As a Seattlite, the impact that Amazon is having here is distinctly bad. Rents ARE rising at remarkable rates largely because Amazon has gone from 5,000 to 25,000 employees in the last 5-8 years, and they're being paid so much that they can easily afford $2k for 800sqft.
If we're to expect *another* 20,000 Ama-workers... then fuck me. Anyone paid less than $100k/year will be forced to the fringes of the city, and traffic with become so bad that we'll have to adopt J.G. Ballard's "Chronopolis" solution, where different workers use different clocks in order to mitigate rush hour (or rather, rush hour just becomes permanent, instead of total gridlock for 2-3 hrs a day).
If Amazon wants that many workers, they should build their own dormitories for them. Lord knows these pale-faced socially-inept "bro-grammers" don't really use their living spaces for anything but re-heating microwave meals and whacking off. o_O
Personally, I'm a bit irritated by the hipsterization, gentrification, and overall boringization of the area and nearby areas. All the cool places are shutting down and being replaced with retail/condos, with Pilates studios, upscale boutiques selling $25 Ironic t-shirts, beards, and all that. All my friends are having to move because of increasing rents. Then again, I live here.
Oh, and yeah, in addition to the hipster folk, a number of the general geeks at Amazon tend to be 'overconfident' types with questionable social skills.
And anyone notice that the image of Amazon's new offices, with the two glass domes and the office tower behind them looks a bit phallic. Just sayin'
And as far as women making the same as men in comparable jobs, well, That may be to some extent. Perhaps even the stats will change when more women show up in the higher paying, more prestigious jobs. Gotta stop them from quitting their careers in frustration first.
- A woman programmer who stuck it out in tech for 30 years and is tired of seeing her friends quit.
While Seattle women earned 86 cents per dollar earned by men in 2012, today, they make only 78 cents per dollar.
Well then fucking step up, ladies! Why the fuck do you get away with doing 22% less work than men do? Why do men constantly have to carry you? Men do almost a third more work than women do and frankly, as a feminist, I find that disgusting. Men deserve equality. Men shouldn't have to do more work than women do.
Meanwhile, during this time when women are only doing 78% of the work men do, women earn the same wages for the same work. That problem is solved, so the remaining problem is that women do unequally little work compared to men.
Time to stop lolligagging, women.
Wow, it's like articles pointing out the obvious inequalities and injustices women and minorities face bring out the white male privilege troll brigade. Full of faux stats and misconceptions. Have fun self validating.
Problem solved.
Jesse, I told you to stop posting on Slashdot!!
-Walter
As the number of immigrants in the United States increases, pay equity for women decreases. As the number of Executive Orders granting amnesty to illegal immigrants increases, pay equity for women decreases. As the depth of snow in Buffalo increases, pay equity for women decreases. The obvious way, therefore, to increase pay equity for women is to outlaw immigration, Executive Orders granting amnesty to illegal immigrants, and snow in Buffalo.
First she complains that Amazon employee are too standoffish, passive, and boring. Then she complains that they're too entitled, confrontational, and intense. Which is it?
Except negotiating on a person by person bases for the same work is stupid.
No it is not. Even people hired for the same job vary in competence and qualifications. This is particularly true in programming - the difference in productivity between a competent programmer and a great programmer can literally be an order of magnitude apart. Should you pay two people with vastly different productivity levels the same amount merely because they share the same job title?
Why should a great engineer be paid less because they aren't a social adept as someone else?
Probably because business is a team sport and social ability matters even in engineering. Your ability to effectively communicate and work with others is important.
It's the same work.
That doesn't mean everyone is equally good at doing it.
Did it ever occur to you PC jerks that, oh, i don't know, maybe there aren't that many qualified candidates that are also women, in Seattle?
Frankly it's amazing that in Seattle you find any qualified males, either.
My ex-grilfriend moved to Seattle a few years back to work for Amazon, as a programmer - she's a better programmer than I am for sure - and she ended up leaving because she didn't like it. Maybe so many dudes is why, but maybe no one in Seattle qualified wants to work there.
Really? Fourth?
Uh, no. Seattle needs to re-adjust it's shit because it's definitely not fourth worst in traffic. Come to Houston, a city over 12x the size in population, and see what traffic looks like. Or LA. Or NY.
What is that man earning $89400 DOING? What is that $79000 woman DOING?
I have NEVER seen one of these comparisons in which the male and the female had the EXACT same position, at the exact same company, with exact same education, the exact same work history, the exact same longevity at the company, etc.
Statistically, women might have the same position, but less time on the job due to taking time off to have and raise kids, care for parents, etc. To blindly compensate two people in the same job with the same salary just because they have opposite naughty bits while ignoring their work histories etc would actually unfairly fail to compensate many men for many years of faithful service and the degree to which so many of them sacrifice time with their families because some pointy-haired boss who could not schedule and plan competently had another deadline EMERGENCY.
Hardcore feminists, and the wimpy dudes who want to get laid by pretending to take their side on political issues, will simply never be able to achieve the society they dream of; Women have the wombs and are always gonna be the ones to bear the children. They are also more likely to be the caregivers who tend to elderly parents. Over the long-haul, the women who take a lower salary in exchange for time away to bear and raise children and care for their parents are the ones who are probably making the wiser choices. At the end of your life, it will be the time you spent with your family and the pride you have in your kids that will matter more to you much more than the extra yacht you helped some awful self-centered and ungrateful boss buy himself.
a great engineer, and negotiating your compensation is part of being a professional. Engineers are "white collar" professionals rather than "blue collar" workers. Blue collar workers either take the posted salary or get together in unions and let the union negotiate for them, but white collar professionals are expected to individually negotiate for themselves as independent and competent professionals. To argue that an engineer should not be expected to do this is like arguing that an engineer should not know math or not know how to explain what he is working on in a meeting with his peers or management - it's a very basic part of the occupation.
Spend a few days reading nothing but technology news. Then spend a few days reading nothing but political news. For the first few days you’ll see an exciting world of innovation and creativity where everything is getting better all the time. In the second period you’ll see a miserable world of cynicism and treachery where everything is falling apart. Please explain the difference.
Don't worry, most of those jobs will go away soon. Amazon's newer warehouses use Kiva robots to move merchandise around to picking stations. Picking is still manual; the computers do all the thinking, the humans just pick up what the laser pointer points at. But Bezos owns a robotics startup working on automating that. At Amazon, being replaced by robots isn't a future problem. It's here now.
Customer service is already mostly automated. It's can't be long until customer service chat is with a computer, not a human. Then Amazon will need fewer people.
Cost of living is rising. It isn't uncommon these days for a man to be a single parent. More men are now taking on the position as a single parent these days, they too require time off to bring their children to the doctors, sick days... Of course, even married couples share in these tasks. A employer should be prepared to offer a avenue for their employees to take the needed time to care for their family and|or themselves when deemed necessary. Shit happens.
Preventing a woman from making the same amount as men, when doing the same exact job, is crazy. In turn, the parent can not provide for their child(ren) the same as one whom is paid appropriately. Where in some cases, the children coming from the deprived households could lack in education, proper health and so on. One needs to consider the savings for retirement, as well. The less money one makes, the less likely savings would even be an option. It is a disservice to society as a whole. As society ends up having to flip the bill!
Blaming the victims, clearing is misdirected. The blame should be towards the instigator. In this case, people whom hold prejudices and|or take advantage.
Obama's unconstitutional immigration plans to, help the poor poor bastards is just a selfish ruse.
Obama real intentions are to 1) use the 5 million as a "bought democratic vote" in the 2016 election and 2) Obama will run for a third unconstitutional term in office.
Given all else he's done he will just ignore the constitution and supplant himself as the Democratic Candidate for President 2016.
Stop being bad at everything important then. Enjoy that harsh truth.
Can you imagine if a man wrote an op-ed about how work is killing his sex life because his female coworkers aren't successfully arousing him?
The writer also makes it clear she has nothing but contempt for the non-neurotypical she encounters. She could do with bit more empathy for those that struggle to master the complicated social rituals that come so easily to her.
If you live in the pacific northwest, you come to view Seattle as a true blot on the landscape, akin to LA. But it's worse than LA. It rains all the time, it's loaded
with idiot liberal politicians who do not bother to think before acting, and the traffic is horrendous, day and night. I'd rather deal with traffic, politicians, and weather
in LA than Seattle. As for the supposed pay gap for women, I don't really care, because I'm (1) male, and (2) retired.
In a company that is 75% male, even fat chicks will get some attention. I bet they prefer that to getting a 15% raise.
It isn't about 'lower pay for women working the same job as men', I quote:
'Women' versus 'Men' - no mention of positions held or even I dustry worked in, just gender average vs. gender average...
Can we all just take a deep breath and realize men and women SOMETIMES have different career priorities and make different choices, and that does NOT qualify as gender discrimination, it's simply an easily quantifiable manifestation of their different choices...
Ken
https://www.change.org/p/barac...
Casteism
Speaking as an economic professor . . .
It's not hard to explain why Amazon or any other employer would pay women (or greens, or redheads, or . . ) less. Of course they want to pay less.
What we cannot explain is why on earth they would pay white males more than a purple woman with green hair . . .
doc hawk
Most of these jobs have salaries that can be negotiated.
If you can't negotiate at all, you are considered expendable.
If you can and do a bad job, you suck.