Slashdot Mirror
Displaced IT Workers Being Silenced
dcblogs writes A major problem with the H-1B debate is the absence of displaced IT workers in news media accounts. Much of the reporting is one-sided — and there's a reason for this. An IT worker who is fired because he or she has been replaced by a foreign, visa-holding employee of an offshore outsourcing firm will sign a severance agreement. This severance agreement will likely include a non-disparagement clause that will make the fired worker extremely cautious about what they say on Facebook, let alone to the media. On-the-record interviews with displaced workers are difficult to get. While a restrictive severance package may be one handcuff, some are simply fearful of jeopardizing future job prospects by talking to reporters. Now silenced, displaced IT workers become invisible and easy to ignore. This situation has a major impact on how the news media covers the H-1B issue and offshore outsourcing issues generally.
What is this about?
Isn't H-1B the program that allows foreigners to steal American jobs from Americans? Really not sure how I'm supposed to feel here.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Put the heads of Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. in prison for violating 15USC:
Send a few dozen Silicon Valley darlings to prison for a decade over the wage price fixing scandal and I bet H1B interest will collapse.
Have you thought about taking the stick out of your ass?
I mean, I knew slashdot was right wing these days, but this story takes the propaganda to a whole new level.
"We can't find anyone to interview who says they've been displaced by an H1B worker. That said, we need to make up a story about this, so we're going to make a story saying that none of them want to be interviewed."
There's no evidence for these people existing in the entire story, only a statement that they were unable to interview anyone.
that is all
I haven't a shred out doubt that these people are being hushed up, by whatever means necessary.
What I do doubt is the significance of the effect on mass media coverage. Other factors are in play.
Corporate media disdains adverse coverage of the H1B scandal because it is portrayed as "racist" against third-world emigres, and also because hey, business is business, right? (wink, wink).
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
This is the single greatest comment ever on /.
+1 informative
Most attorneys will tell you that most of these contracts are un-enforceable and this is true. I refuse to sign anything other than NDAs. I can honor an NDA, but not a non-compete or a non-disparagement contract. They cannot make you sign, and if you're getting let go anyway, they can do nothing.
If you want to legally get back at a company that has screwed you, call the BSA and rat them out for software license illegalities. Only do this if you know it's true and it can be proved readily and easily. Most companies cannot and do not have good license practices and this is a painful and expensive lesson if found to be afoul of the license terms. Most businesses run afoul but are never reported. The BSA will descend on a business like roaches to a donut -- usually with lawyers and police. A few million in fines later... The BSA also gives reward money. Something to think about, but make sure if you go this route, you had no responsibility for licenses or software purchasing, that you are just a concerned legal worker disgusted by theft and illegal practices.
Here's the thing. American companies are American in name only. American companies should be required by law to hire Americans first and foremost, not try and save money by hiring some cheap developer from a third world country. I'm disgusted by the nature of business these days, the desire for more and more profit at the expense of the workers. This is why I work for non-profits only now. I'm tired and disgusted by the game. I love IT work, but not the evils that go into running a business for profit.
If you are made to sign a document against your will? Years ago, I applied to temp agencies for work. I was made to sign a document wherein I could not negotiate employment with a client company directly. A lawyer told me that document does not hold up in court because no one can stop you from looking for work. While references are something you do need and you are at a company's mercy for, a lot of stuff they make you sign is questionable and may not hold up in court. Especially if you are made to feel you have no choice and are made to do it to ensure survival. As a temp worker, I just wanted to pay bills and would have signed pretty much anything if I had to. The lawyer told me that was another factor consider as well, which further weakens such documents under scrutiny of the courts. While the argument can be made, 'just find work elsewhere', in a bad economy our choices are increasingly limited.
"SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
if company does layoff, it is not allowed to apply for H1Bs
so dcblogs produced stupid text
Almost no one signed a non disparagement clause. To sign that sort of thing you generally get severance. There are plenty is displaced workers available to get interviews from. Tech workers don't get interviewed mostly for the same reason steel workers or book editors don't get interviewed they don't have anything particularly insightful to say.
Moreover H1B has nothing to do with offshore outsourcing those are entirely different programs. H1B is allowing people to come to the USA to work, offshoring is part of having low tariffs, and often incentives.
Come one...
Seriously, we're such ideologues on this issue that we're going to believe that there's some massive, industry wide conspiracy to cover this up?
Anyone making more than $50k a year or so usually gets a severance package. And that's not a benefit to the business, it's a nice thing that comes with the job. Normal people get walked out the door by a security guard and told the stuff on their desk will be mailed to them postage due. The fact that we get a severance package is great... that the company expects us not to defame them after giving us 3months+ pay that they don't have to? That should be expected. That's not going to stop you from saying "I worked for a tech company that I'll not name, and was laid off when they hired foreign workers."
Most Americans don't want temp work. The industry wants temp workers for short projects. H1B's prefer temp work because it generally pays a tad more and they have no particular ties to the area the work isin. There's no mystery here. Hiring 3rd party companies to do short projects always turns out horrible and costs a fortune. Maybe we should address the need for temp work and stop turning this into some evil plot?
The author of TFA is exaggerating and assuming that the clause in the agreement is purposely for those who are replaced by H1B people. Either he or his friends/family members were affected by this. To me, the clause to not disclose any information about being let go is very common. If you are being "fired," there are many reasons. Also, the company will NEVER want you to say anything regardless how you are being replaced. These people will find something to blame on others regardless (and in this case is the H1B people who replaced them). I am not saying that all are legitimated laid off/fired, but I doubt that the "signing" the document is REALLY for the case only.
Then the author pulls in politic which, of couse, a more effective on those who do not like H1B already. TFA has some of the fact and reasons, but over all TFA contains bias against H1B people by using the word "being fired or replaced" to make TFA more dramatic.
unless it's fair for everyone... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=equality+spirit
Just curious. Are experienced IT workers with up to date skills really not able to find jobs? What about programmers specifically ("IT Worker" can mean a lot of things)?
I'm assuming that age discrimination is impacting some of these people, but what about relatively young software developers? How many of you are young and talented software developers with at least of few years of experience and are having trouble finding work?
I left before it happened but my former company outsourced all of IT to Wipro.
This was on a system with 60,000 users.
Everyone but management was replaced with H1B- workers from India.
Outgoing staff was asked to stay and train their replacements with no severance packages.
Very few stayed and turnover documents were not made (hmm I wonder why) so the incoming Wipro workers had to discover and document the systems themselves.
I hear it was a real nightmare with lots of $$ spent on contractors to help figure things out.
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
Which I will not elaborate here, not exactly on the nature being discussed. My lawyer told me, this kind of provisions only are enforceable while you work for them by our local laws, and since you are not an employee anymore, this clausule is void. That guy knows what he is doing...
I have been displaced on more than one occasion. Atos laid me off so they could hire a cheaper H1B worker. (Not a loss as they are a sweat shop)
Atos has several NO-Outsource government contracts and before my layoff they were discussing outsourcing them and putting one American to answer the phone so the government did not know it was outsourced.
There was a company that was backed by the airlines where the CIO was Indian and the whole IT group was H1B's. I was the only white guy there and I was laid off from them officially for "Not meeting there expectations" and was replaced by an H1B worker.
HP had several H1B workers working 80+ hour weeks and only reporting 40 hours. On the promise that they would "Make it up to them." They replaced me because I was saying it was illegal to do, yep they brought in another H1B to replace me.
Between H1B's and outsourcing work to India, IT has been a crappy field but I still make money at it.
You're an unskilled douche who cheated his way thru academia and jobs by being in the "right frat" or by being related to a major stockholder (connections), right? Absolutely. You're worth far less than the people who actually make things happen for you as an overpaid babysitter that wastes everyone's time of those you noted who have to attempt to get a moronic dolt like yourself up to speed on things he should understand but obviously doesn't (and can't make them happen since he is a popinjay). IF you are so great, seeing how you've just spoken, then bigshot: why don't you build those programs and networks yourself then? Answer = you just can't. You're a helpless popinjay.
On-the-record interviews with displaced workers are difficult to get. While a restrictive severance package may be one handcuff, some are simply fearful of jeopardizing future job prospects by talking to reporters. Now silenced, displaced IT workers become invisible and easy to ignore.
We aren't like those other countries where citizens are muzzled. Over here, we have the first amendment. Oh wait...Yes, I am referring to the constitution.
Take the games industry for example: the only reason people don't talk inside baseball is because the second they go on record with a negative comment they become unemployable.
We all want to have a monopoly on what we do for a living. We want limited competitor and supply s and be able to charge high prices. As consumers we want unlimited choices, lots of supply, and low prices. A free market will provide the latter and a command economy is required for the former. What we have now is the worst of both. Those with political power use it to restrict start up and small competitors while trying to have unlimited supply of cheap labor.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
You have to sign the agreement. Usually there is money that was not earned involved in this agreement. That money may seem like it was 'owed' because you're being let go, but it's actually quite obviously in exchange for your silence. You don't have to sign those agreements, but when you do, you hang that cash on it.
What would these fired workers possibly say, that these theoretical severance packages don't allow?' "I had a job, and then I lost it," or something to that effect? Big deal, that wouldn't make it to the front page of the Times or even Slashdot. And isn't there some kind of communication tool out there, which allows people to anonymously relate something that happened to them, and then have it widely distributed by computer?
Sure, losing a job to an H1B worker is no fun. This post is imagining something sinister is being hidden in severance packages, but leaves the sinister happening so vague as to meaningless. Either say what it is or shut up.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
My employer asked me to move from my comfortable Western country to the SF Bay Area. Cool!
But, I saw some company documents (after accepting) that indicate the decision to move me there is partly due to major cost savings on their part. I got a minor salary adjustment, but rent is several times higher and everything else is more expensive. Should I be concerned? Am I right to be fuming? And, is there a chance of "mobility" with a H-1B?
. This situation has a major impact on how the news media covers the H-1B issue and offshore outsourcing issues generally.
How about asking some statistics from the Department of Labor, journalists? Or are you just after a fashionable sob-story, with a bitter after taste and double the ad sales of the evening news?
they tell you it's because of ... bad management.
Management is never bad. No matter if the company is run into the ground, sets fire to the entire US economy, and has to be bailed out by taxpayers against their wishes, they always get their bonuses because by golly they've earned it by doing such a great job at AIG.
And, well, fuck the non-disparagement agreement. It's not disparagement to post factual information.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
The system had 60k users. It is not the number of H1B's.
Retard.
Businesses will do practically anything to increase the bottom line.
Government will do practically anything to rake in campaign donations and increase voters for their party. And I mean both parties.
It is a toxic mix and IT workers are in the eye of the shitstorm.
Land of the free? Home of the brave? Greatest joke of all time!
Fuck the USA and fuck their corporatist oligarchy.
We have the world's largest prison population. How could we not be the land of the free?
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
60k end users.. We had 250 in IT at the Denver site.. and more on site staff across 19 states.
If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
Not sure where I live that foreign workers have displaced me, but they did consolidate the helpdesk center where I worked keeping jobs in the Texas branch but not here. Maybe they are using illegals there. lol (have to laugh otherwise I would cry).
"Much of the reporting is one-sided — and there's a reason for this."
There is more than one reason. The article gives one reason - and this was news to me.
However the other reason is that for some reason the reporting is very biased in favor of open borders. This is a situation where the well-known obvious liberal bias of most reporters fits perfectly with the often alleged corporate bias of the owners of most major media outlets. Diversity meets cheap labor is the perfect storm.
How often do we here about the need for "comprehensive immigration reform"? The very word "reform" shows the bias. And we already did it anyway, we traded amnesty for increased enforcement. The amnesty occurred but we never go the enforcement. Now the very same deal is being offered again? How often do you hear this outside of right-wing radio and (possibly because I don't watch it) Fox News? Yet it is central to why so many people are dead-set against a comprehensive deal. For a deal you need trust and there is no trust. But you don't see that reported in the Washington Post.
Build a border that can be enforced, then we'll talk amnesty (and I'll be in favor of it too). But we can't make a new agreement until good faith is shown through the fulfilling of the terms of the previous agreement. Would you go back and buy another car from a salesman who never delivered the previous one you bought and paid for?
One we have the trust, we can talk about the H1-Bs too.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
Company I worked for went out of business two years ago. Figured I could start out on my own. Boss' lawyer gave me a 'friendly' call to warn me off calling former customers.
I have not recovered financially at all from this debacle. Since I couldn't risk a law suit having no funds to fight one I was forced to take the low paying stop-gap job I'm in now. Only now can I tentatively begin to reach out to former customers to see if they would like to work with me again. A lot of ground lost. A lot of potential income blown to the wind. Needless to say, my former boss is an insecure douchebag and I'm pleased to know from former customers that when it comes to actually doing the work, he hasn't a clue...so maybe things will come around for me. Karma and all of that.
Then you aren't all that useful, it's the honest truth. Look in the mirror to find the real problem. There are PLENTY of jobs out there for people who can actually solve problems (engineering degree helps), but if you're a plug n' play IT guy who needs to follow written documents to do your job properly, then yes, you're getting replaced.
And, well, fuck the non-disparagement agreement. It's not disparagement to post factual information.
And yet, how many laid off tech workers have the funds to fend off the inevitable law suit from the big company that doesn't want the world to know it is laying off skilled people simply because they don't like the going rate for those skills.
America the land of deepest pockets winning all the lawsuits
I'm sure it's been thought of but perhaps something along the lines of a registry for US IT workers?
Apple had their report including the 'we haven't been asked to screw your privacy by the NSA" and if there was a registry of
IT Workers who's names were removed from it when replaced by H1B scabs then perhaps this issue could be better tracked.
"I the undersigned am presently employed by a company that hasn't replaced my position with an underpaid H1B visa holder'
"yup still here.. etc etc etc. Bob Johnson in Texas is no longer listed but can't talk about it, mark that one down for an H1B scab and include it in the counter statistics for not issuing anymore of these visas.
Most NDA's don't seem to have anything about continuing to indicate a preexisting agreement still being in effect.
Just a thought to counteract this type of crap.
~G
How does H1B work? Just to lower wages.
Northeast Utilities, that recently merged with NSTAR, another utility, has outsourced IT to two firms from India.
Why? Not to get talent it could not find in the US, as the jobs were already filled with US citizens.
Simply to "cut the budget"
The H1B were used to bring Indian IT personnel to the US, and have them coordinate with offshore workers.
Time to make the firms that have the H1B allocation prove two things.
The job requirements are valid
No one in the US could be found, at any price up to 2 times normal salary, to fill the vacancy.
This is what is done in other modern industrialized countries.
I've worked at a lot of companies over the last 25 years and the ones that went the H1B visa is better route, are all now tail spinning into the toilet, at best they are struggling to stay relevant. There is always room for a good employee, but replacing good ones with unknowns to save short term doesn't appear to work.
It takes about 10 years of promoting H1B yes men and putting them in the food chain in various places. But everywhere I know that did it, is now struggling hard if they survived those 10 years. Just my own observations, but I'd love to see a long term study on the effects to a company when this is the case. Perhaps its an actually a symptom to the problem with management to begin with?
How often have you heard of employers going after employees who ignore that part of the agreement?
The article puts the lie to the idea that these H-1B workers are filling jobs that there are no good American candidates for. The article, and one linked in it, talk about existing workers training their H-1B replacements. So, there are manifestly American workers who can do these jobs. They are doing them right now! The article also says they are often older workers being replaced. You know what that means; these older workers are highly compensated. As usual it's about the bottom line, with humans as resources to be exploited.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
60,000 users, not operators!
Depending on the language in the contract, posting factual information could very well violate these agreements. I believe you're thinking about libel or slander (i.e. false statements). Disparagement, however, doesn't have to be false. It merely has to cast the benefited party in a negative light. This can be a huge grey area and given the insane cost of defending a lawsuit, I understand why people subject to these provisions might be very reluctant to speak.
First question on reporting for H1B work is "will you sign back part of your paycheck? Like more than half?" The answer from Canadians (unlike people from less developed countries) is "Hell no, and I'll report you if you try it" because they're doing the H1B to get a slightly higher rate, not to avoid below minimum wage work back home. Even at a reasonable salary H1B work is not worthwhile because of the pressure to work insane hours or go home. The whole program should be scrapped.
The big outsourcing companies are going offshore so that they can first bill a bunch of "cheap" but ineffective offshore people and then bill for competent onshore people to actually deliver the project once it is clear nothing will get done successfully offshore. The offshore guys are salary ballast. It's a management fad so they still get people to sign on, and even to go through the process repeatedly as long as the VPs at client companies ignore their underlings who actually see the results.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
Wait, do they have to sign the agreement? Or are they paid extra for the agreement?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
For a long time there have been tariffs to protect the importation of cheap goods (lumber, steel, etc.) from foreign countries into the USA. This system allows US companies to compete fairly against goods from other countries where wages and regulations give them an unfair advantage.
I think it is time for wage tariffs as well. If there truly is a shortage of skilled IT workers, as all the big companies are crying about now, then they should be forced to pay a tariff for importing cheap foreign labor. This system would help to protect US IT workers by forcing companies to pay a fair market value for their skills. And if the companies truly cannot find anyone in the US to do the work then the company should not complain about paying a wage tariff. They would be filling needed skills and acting in the best fiduciary interests of their shareholders, which is their legal responsibility.
Personally, I don't believe for a minute that there is any shortage at all. The only shortage is the number of US IT workers that are willing to work for sub par wages. My prediction is that if such a system were in place the number of H1-B workers would be reduced to practically zero. Only in the cases where skills were truly needed and nobody in the US could be found to do a given job would you see foreign workers brought in.
That is the way the system is supposed to work anyhow. An additional benefit is that all of this could be accomplished without the need of unions, which introduce a whole host of issues in their own right.
I think we should consider a "Stat Squish" for wages.
The "Occupy Wallstreet" movement had the right idea, but was not properly organized. However, I understand the overall message.
The CEOs and boards and politicians are largely not held accountable for unethical or derelict behavior. It is time to squish salaries and make a few people accountable for bad judgements.
-SK
Go home Lahey, you're drunk!
If you don't want to be silenced then don't take the severance package. Title makes it sound draconian while, in fact, they're being "silenced" by being given large sums of cash.
Having a registered loser acc't makes 1 with them "better" (better popinjays).
My job was replaced by outsourcing and I was unable to talk about it due to a nondisclosure (TomTom).
It was also age discrimination, another rampant problem in Hi Tech, which I had to sign off on or, once again, no severance.
Problem solved.
Yes, we tend all to think that things that happen to us are related to the IT industry. However, nothing in "the H1-B debate" restricts this issue you mention to the IT sector.
This issue is not even related to immigration — If a company prefers to hire me to do $foobar because I'm better and cheaper for the job than the guy who did it before me, the company will do its best not to get bad press. It might include paying him a bit extra so you leave happy, or adding judicial clauses to shut his mouth up.
Of course, specific cases can be mentioned to say "hey, this is a specific issue for us techies and it involves them non-USians!". But it's the way things have always worked.
How does voluntarily taking a severance package amount to "being silenced"? Don't like the non-disparagement clause? Don't take the money.
If I were to get a H1B visa, I might want to do the work you currently do for a much lower wage than yours (since I come from an allegedly poor country or something like that). So, is getting a PHP newbie developer who was born in the USA and charges US$100K a year, or getting a good, talented programmer who will do the same work for US$60K a year... Is on the same level only because they will fill the same job position?
(I live in Mexico, and am *not* interested in living in the USA. I have a ~US$25K yearly salary, and live quite well off it. But many colleagues have migrated to the USA, just because of that salary difference)
how often do you hear of companies shit-canning your resume if you are found out (public record) that you sued an employer OVER ANYTHING, even valid complaints?
right, you don't hear of it.
the real shit in this world is never reported. but its been like that forever; its how mankind works (or, fails to work, in this regard).
the one law of the jungle: if you can get away with it, you can get away with it; especially if you are big and can lay down a serious smackdown to challengers.
there is no other justice than this, in the world. those with power, get away with shit and you and I have essentially no say. we take whatever crumbs come our way.
sad, but if you think about it honestly, its what we have in this world.
reporters? since when does the news report real news? since when does the news challenge those in authority? not since the past 20 yrs, since 'news' is now part of the entertainment and profit-centers of tv (newspapers are nearly dead, btw).
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Wait, do they have to sign the agreement? Or are they paid extra for the agreement?
Nobody *has* to sign any agreements when they're being terminated.
However, many tech workers don't know that. Others are more worried about things like how they're going to find a new job if they get a bad reference from this one, so they sign on the dotted line. Still others want the "bonus" that's offered for signing.
You know how in Hollywood they say "Be nice to everyone you meet on your way up, because you'll see them again on your way down?"
IT is the reverse - "Be nice to people on your way down if you want to have any hope of getting back up." Employers are not likely to hire "complainers" because next thing you know, they'll be whining about having to put in 80-hour weeks and work/life balance and overtime pay.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
They're probably paid extra, in the sense of "you can sign and get the package, or you can not sign and not get any package."
I know an Indian independent contractor who worked on contract for a large electric utility. He managed six warm bodies provided by some Indian company. His contract came from some company that had a contract with another company and the grand parent company was the vendor to the electric utility. Each was padding up his hourly rate. It was rumoured one of the shell companies that did no work other than to shuffle paperwork and skim 10$ an hour from each contractor was owned by a relative of the top IT manager of the electric utility.
There are perverse incentives in the system to roil an smoothly working system, promise heaven and earth using some powerpoint magic, and deliberately trigger a crisis. Crisis means no bid contracts, crazy decisions and highly inflated costs.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
It's not disparagement to post factual information.
Not true. Disparagement means saying something bad about someone or something, whether you are speaking the truth or not. There is no requirement that the statements be false.
Not even for ignoring it. You could technically fit within it, but if you say anything the company doesn't like, they come after you.
Use your status as a member of a protected class if you are in one (over 40, minority, etc.) to suggest that in foregoance of your right to file a wrongful termination suit, you will accept a higher severance package. Don't sign their first severance offer.
Go straight to Glassdoor.com and slag your former employer without mercy anonymously; Let the others coming after you know what is up with the company.
H1B program is a scam that will never go away or even be curtailed unless we all get vocal and loud.
I long for the days when working with computers was not necessarily synonymous with the "Welcome to America" bit.
All the other countries do a much better job of protecting their indigenous workforce than the U.S.
I have seen many situations where I am leading a group of foreigners and I ask myself: "Why"?
Me.
Mind you, this was 20 years ago, but I had made a remark that my previous employer must be having a paperwork problem with their Employee Stock Ownership Program, because it was June, and the plan required annual reports by the end of April, and I had still not received one.
TWO days later, a registered letter arrives from a Law Firm, warning me of the consequences of slandering my previous employer. . . .
I shut up. The Annual Report (and my final ESOP certificate) arrived in September. Needless to say, I liquidated immediately and rolled it to an IRA. . .
Mind you, that was over a CASUAL COMMENT on compliance with a filed financial plan.
bill cosby.
Sickest joke I know...
... when they had to compete with subsidized US producers. What goes around comes around.
Ummm.... no.... Two completely different issues.
The H1-B issue with the I.T. field is all about people skilled or trained to perform a job that's in high demand in the U.S. right now, yet getting short-changed in their ability to find employment doing it, because companies are receiving legal passes to hire outsiders at big salary discounts.
In the industries you're referring to, you're talking about businesses who were traditionally free to place big markups on offering their intellectual property to the public while simultaneously slapping numerous restrictions on its use or redistribution. TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES causes their business models to increasingly become obsolete, so rather than adapt, they spent too much time trying to strong-arm people into continuing to ignore the changes, and keep on doing things the way they were always done. When this (predictably) became a losing battle, they acted like the injured parties.
Welcome to America where you are free. Free, that is, to fuck everybody up the ass in as many ways as you can think of.
Or are they paid extra for the agreement?
I was paid $11k to not speak ill about my scum-sucking, punk-455, fscked up prior employer, who shall rename nameless, may they go out of business soonest.
If I didn't sign, I'd get $1,000 and the bills were due.
Land of the free? Home of the brave? Greatest joke of all time!
Fuck the USA and fuck their corporatist oligarchy.
We have the world's largest prison population. How could we not be the land of the free?
Can't make omelettes without breaking a lot of eggs...and putting them... in ... prison.
I can see this occurring in the past, but not the present. Everyone complains about everything online. If you really dig into someone's background, eventually you're going to find something objectionable. There would be hordes of people displaced if this was truly going on in significant numbers. A company can go after a worker, but it's going to be Streisand Effect. When they need to hire new talent, their candidates are also going to do a search. Who is going to want to work for a company that's notorious for silencing its workers?
At best, the employer might be able to reverse-direct-deposit the severance if the complainer wasn't smart enough to move the money. The courts aren't going to take a person's house or retirement savings, and that's probably as much "wealth" that the average American worker has at this point. Want to rat a company out? Grab a disposable phone and tweet away.
I'm having a bit of trouble feeling sorry for the 'victims' who chose to sell out here. If they are taking hush money, then they are complicit here.
If your employee wants to kick you out they can, but once they fire you why would you ever sign anything they put in your hand?
Posting as anonymous for obvious reasons.
I managed a team of developers at a shrink wrap software shop for ~3 years. It was actually a really solid place to work from a cultural and technical point of view. Unfortunately, the CEO was a bit of a hot-head and injected mass drama every time he came out of his office.
I had a quarterly check in with him, and give him an accurate description of my active projects and my thoughts on the direction he wanted to move in. I expressed my concern about the quality of some of the 10+ year old code that was at the core of the features he wanted to expand on. Turns out that negative feedback was not what he was looking for.
Next thing I know the CIO is stopping by asking me what it is that I actually do day to day. Then my lead architect mentioned that the CEO stopped by and talked about taking a "more active role" in the team.
Not long after that, I was given marching orders and a severance package. The severance was predicated by the signature of a pair of contracts covering confidentiality and behaviors.
About a month and a half into my severance, I get an irate call from the HR director claiming I've violated my severance agreement and that they will be seeking recomp.
I hired a lawyer, talked it out with him. Either we ignore them and hope they don't come after me, we call their bluff and threaten a counter suit, or we pay them off and nullify the contract. At this point I was tempted, ooh so tempted, to just say, "OK". Because with no contract, there is no confidentiality agreement, no non-disparagement agreement, no non-compete agreement.
As soon as my lawyer pointed out that if the employer broke the contract that they wouldn't have standing to come after me for the other aspects of the contract, they backed off and paid out the rest of my severance.
It's nice to get the money that was owed to me, but the annoyance of the contracts sucks, and I will definitely avoid any such contracts in the future.
In the end though, I will never put a review of that company on Glassdoor. I do not talk about my separation with my friends from the company. And the details of my severance package will never be shared. Because fsk are lawyers expensive.
Companies used to blacklist workers who caused "trouble" by agitating for fair treatment and safe working conditions. Blacklisting is now illegal.
Instead of maintaining and sharing blacklists (and risking legal consequences), companies now have a simpler means of achieving that goal.
Almost every reference check on an applicant includes a question along the lines of "would you hire this person as an employee again?" or "is this person eligible for rehire?" If the answer to that is no, then your application pretty much gets trashed.
The best part? Most companies cite the potential for lawsuits and decline to provide specific information if asked for details. So if a company decides to blackball you for entirely unfair reasons, their response looks exactly like a well-behaved company that is following standard legal advice.
The question of rehiring makes any response basically immune to libel/slander/defamation laws since the company is not making any statements of fact about you. (I.e., you could sure for slander if they say you were an alcoholic who rarely showed up to work---but there is no grounds for a suit based on their hire/no-hire decision.)
A lot of tech companies aren't even doing reference checks anymore. The last few companies I worked for did not. They're somewhat pointless. Many companies don't allow their employees to answer reference checks at all, other than to verify that the person was employed. Same reason, a person's former employer doesn't want to be liable should the candidate not get hired by the new company.
The best time to leave is when you asked to train the offshore team. I've left several times due to this and I believe helped contribute to the failure of outsourcing for that company.
... why don't they want to live in India? What does the USA have that India doesn't?
But once again, thanks for destroying our countries with your 'diversity' bullshit, JEWS.
Well - the cagier employers out there will say your final pay won't be disbursed until you sign.
it is usually tied to their severance package
Why didn't the companies just move to INDIA? Or didn't the white traitors who run them want to live around millions of Indians. So they thought they'd bring millions of foul Indians to the USA, and magically not have to live around them!
Hang the white traitors and their Jewish 'masters' who have forced this 'diversity' bullcrap onto us.
Why can't you leave us white people alone? Why can't you stand living around your own race?
Most severance agreements are signed under duress. Being terminated can be very stressful, and the future looks bleak. You don't know when you will receive your next paycheck, and must start a job search. Most states have laws which prevent signing contracts under duress. And accepting a termination (severance) package may meet those standards. One should not be afraid to tell the truth. Just be careful not to say anything "nasty" about the company or its executives. Simply state that you were replaced by a low salaried individual with an H1B visa - if you know that this is true.
Well - the cagier employers out there will say your final pay won't be disbursed until you sign.
I don't want anyone who would fall for that working with me.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
At least once. I had to defend my separation pay because I stated the factual reason for my dismissal, and the company called to verify employment and reason for dismissal. they sued. It cost me half my separation package to keep the other half.
Reason for termination was the company was taken over in a hostile buyout, and the new owner replaced all upper management with his own people. New owner did not want it to be general knowledge that the buyout was hostile.
The rehire question is not neccesarily a work around in some areas. The laws would treat it the same as blackballing someone. Its also likely to not work well with large companies and large HR departments. You are likely only going to get some policy of not rehiring people within a certain timeframe.
Of course all this is sort of negated if you were fired. Its obvious they do not want you working there if they fire you. The real problem is that a lot of people work in a lot of different places. These people become management and "shop talk" at various hangouts where old friends who happen to be your new prospective employer also hang out. This is more of a problrm in smaller locations but still an issue.
They have an non-disclosure agreement , law or lie to cover up.
DEMS and Obama call them UNDOCUMENTED workers not illegals.
How many really want to come to the USA anymore ? The propaganda keeps them coming but many are not coming anymore.
Yep this is true. I have stood by this and been harassed by corporations for doing this but said 'If you are going to sue, do it... but you can't be calling me up every night at 3am and not call that harassment'. No one ever sues because they are afraid of those facts being raised before a court and scrutinized. But as long as you stick to FACTS and show no opinion in those facts (treat it as journalism), you are fine.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
It's perfectly free. You aren't obliged to sign it. It's your choice to sleep under a bridge if you wish. You don't have that option in Commurope, because all bridges are the personal property of the Queen of Germany.
--
urdagny
In the late 90s I worked for a place that was rumored (internally) to be involved in several lawsuits against past employees, with several of those being countersuits. The internal word of mouth was that they'd try to screw with you after you left. They also pushed out an abitration agreement to all employees, of the typical sort that have an "I Win" clause in it. Not forced on us but we got no more stock options w/o signing it (I refused and the finance vp thought I was insane). On the other hand a lot of those execs ended up in jail later (though for different reasons) and earned an Ignobel award.
it is usually tied to their severance package
In which case you cross out the clause because you don't agree to it. If they want to complete the severance and terminate your employment they are then left to decide how valuable having a gag on your mouth is when they already have their foot on your neck.
Everytime I see this stuff I see that most techs are the most shit negotiators who know little of contract law. This means that companies know they can do what they want to all tech workers because there are no unions to worry about and most IT workers are on their own.
We maybe technical genius, however we are also naive and cowardly negotiators. Until that issue is resolved in ourselves then you will just have to put up with being fist fucked by every employer out there.
People, you have to be formidable negotiators or you need a union. If you are neither then you are driving IT salaries down for everybody.
True about the reporters. A clueless bunch of people who don't know how to investigate or fact check any rumors. Most of Silicon Valley is treated like a mythological place by the news media, where everyone is an entrepreneur and talks business deals at cocktail parties, everyone is gainfully employed, everyone is involved in a web based startup, etc.
For politics (which includes immigration) I just look at the liberal media, then the conservative media, then discount both of those stories since the truth is something completely different.
Insightful++. If you don't get it people - this is what employers are doing to techs in the IT industry.
In my current job they did a background check through an external agency on new hires. They actually told us about this and gave us the results of the check (credit as well as criminal).
Stock related though. Companies take that stuff very very seriously. It's the *only* think they take seriously, they don't understand the technology, the operations bores them to tears, but say anything about the stock and they sit up and pay attention. All-hands meetings usually involve 45 minutes talking about stock, 5 minutes talking about sales, and 10 minutes of sports analogies.
Somebody needs to explain why anyone would sign a "severance agreement". If you're going to fire me, then fire me. If you want my ongoing loyalty, then respect me and pay me (which really means continue to employ me).
If you force me to sign a "severance agreement", then you've not actually got any contractual agreement, since it was signed under duress. Of course, there's always the point about consideration. I might be interested in waiving the duress; for a price.
IT workers have the power to stop this sort of abuse. But they don't.
If we want to change things, we need an organization that can raise money, lobby congress, and launch an effective information campaign. The abuse will not stip while we hold to the belief that griping about the situation will change things.
I donate to NumbersUSA. They are not the ideal organization to represent IT workers, but probably the best we have. If more IT workers donated to NumbersUSA, and let NumbersUSA know that we would donate more, if NumbersUSA would fight harder for the interests of IT workers; I think that might be somewhat effective.
The abuse of IT workers will not stop unless we make it stop.
Post an article on the dice forums that references an article that does not praise visa workers, and/or cry about the shortage of IT workers; and they will delete all of your posts, and ban you from the forums. It happened to me, among many others.
Of course, there are ways to get around it, but why bother. The Indian moderators that work for dice will not allow anything that does not conform to the official story that tech companies want the public to know.
I think dice owns slashdot, so it's interesting that stories like this can still be published on slashdot.
Most illegals come to the US for jobs, or social services. Deny them that, and they will stop coming. Simple right?
Have a worthwhile ID system. Make it a criminal offense, with mandatory jail time, to hire an illegal. Make it practically impossible for illegals to go to school, have jobs, get social services, rent an apartment, buy a house, cash a check, or anything of that nature. And no more anchor babies either.
Watch how fast most illegals self deport. Watch how fast they stop coming.
At that point guarding the border would be much easier.
except it doesn't work like that. People tend to side with the rich and powerful. Most people will side with the employer over the employee for the same reason they consider themselves capitalists, and are eager to throw their neighbors under the bus for whatever social witchunt might show up? Satantic rock'n'roll brainwashing your children. you wouldn't be scared of this if you thought people actually liked your culture. Red Scare, communist/socialist takeover - you wouldn't be scared of this if everyone in society was treated fairly, and no one was exploited. dangerous hip hop music/black people - you wouldn't be scared of the men of color unless you knew they were mistreated. drugs and terrorism - you would not be scared of either, if you actually thought society was good, and people weren't being repressed, and no one ever got unfairly fucked over in life.
My friend is a software developer that was being discriminated against. After acknowledging, then ignoring him, the HR department screwed up pretty bad. He had no choice but to threaten a lawsuit (he had a lot of solid evidence) and they offered him a pretty sweet retention package (nearly a year's pay) that came with a promise not to sue. He took it and quit. He is white, his VP, manager, and most of his coworkers were Indian. The company was Verisign. He has had several good paying jobs since and hasn't been "blacklisted" whatever that means.
I'm a US citizen living in Australia and I have often been contacted about working in the USA under and H1-B visa for very good pay. When they find out that I don't need the visa to work for them, they aren't interested so something else is going on.
I can see this occurring in the past, but not the present. Everyone complains about everything online. If you really dig into someone's background, eventually you're going to find something objectionable. There would be hordes of people displaced if this was truly going on in significant numbers. A company can go after a worker, but it's going to be Streisand Effect. When they need to hire new talent, their candidates are also going to do a search. Who is going to want to work for a company that's notorious for silencing its workers?
You mean, like Mozilla? Disclaimer: I am for gay rights but NOT the way they went about it. Careful what you allow; the wind blow back and forth....
I know that in the bay area, employment is HARD to get (if you are not an h1b, not young and you were born here). they really look for any reason to not hire you, at that point. and if they did do some research on your name and a suit came up against a company, for any reason at all, I'm 100% sure that you'd not hear the reason, but you'd be marked as 'not a cultural fit' and you would not get that job. or the next. or the next.
is it worth that risk?
do you want to leave your field? I don't. I'm too old to start all over again and have too much invested in my field.
they have us.
the simple fact that we are not union and we have no collective power means we are at their mercy.
if you don't see it, its because you are probably still a 'golden child' and are in demand. once you get over 35, things change and you are no longer the GC. if there is any dirt on you, you won't get the jobs you want.
they know this. most of us know this. and it won't change for as long as we stay independant and refuse to be a collective (ie, union). I understand unions have a bad rep but the alternative - in the IT field - is having essentially no power.
I was cocky when I was young. boy did I learn, though! wish I knew then what I knew now (isn't that always the case?)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I'm with you on the Mozilla incident. That was absolutely out of bounds and I will never look at Mozilla the same way again. But that was different. Vocal opportunists saw an opportunity to make an example of a CEO and they took it. The guy already had the job. Someone mentioned that he still does code submissions, which further points to the position being the target and not so much the individual. If he was so reprehensible, they would still be complaining that he contributes to the project. All I hear now are the handful of people still expressing outrage at OkCupid, Mozilla, and the other malicious malcontents.
I know of which you speak, as far as ageism. After interviewing an overqualified Engineer in his early 50s at my last job, my manager literally replied to my recommendation to hire with: "Meh. He's just too old to fit in." I was pretty shocked, especially since part of my argument to hire him was that our team had too many young inexperienced people and could use some balance. I'm 34.
Leaving your field is an option. But there are other viable options out there. Moving to a different job market, expanding your search to the rest of CA or even out of state is another one. I'm praying some company makes me a manager in the next 5 years so I don't end up fighting for individual contributer jobs against people half my age.
Elizabeth Warren's work on "The Two Income Trap" has shown the government's figures on the cost of living to be genocidally wrong. When I say genocidally wrong I mean the absence of children that contributes to "the labor shortage" is due to income redistribution from the middle classes to the increasing centralization of wealth among the upper 1%. Ricardo's "iron law of wages" was formulated in a time when "subsistence" could not cut into replacement reproduction due to the lack of birth control. The conscientious fraction of the population will respond to a lowering of real family income relative to the cost of replacement child rearing by ceasing to have children. This is what Warren's work shows is exactly what happened to the Baby Boomers when it came time for them to plan their families. To further import foreign workers to fill the "labor shortage" when it is already demonstrably the case that lowered _real_ wages has resulted in quasi-genocide of the populations being replaced is no longer excusable as mere ignorance by policy planners, if, indeed, it ever was excusable.
Seastead this.
You sound as if you are under 30... If not, I would guess that you grew up in a very middle class to upper class household and have not suffered much in this life.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
At least one company also told the people being laid off that they wouldn't get their severance pay and back vacation pay if they didn't sign the release. My contact signed, having had a good relation with management, and nearly regretted it later.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
At least one company also told the people being laid off that they wouldn't get their severance pay and back vacation pay if they didn't sign the release.
With smart phones all over the place able to surreptitiously record such illegal threats, hopefully these tactics will become less as time goes on (esp. since any agreement signed under such circumstances is nullable by the employee, though it still binds the company).
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Let's see, crooked new manager looking to eliminate the competition and boost short-term profits, so let's can me and move 80% of the programming off shore, or import people who will work for cheaper. Now, I have nothing against sending work off shore, but importing people because there aren't enough "skills"? Come on, it's all about the almighty dollar. And about the severance package, I should have just refused it so that I could tell the truth about the crooked bastards. All I can say at this point is that God'll git 'em.
Why do you think H1B people will work for below market wages? H1B visa are fully transferable - holders who feel they are underpaid start looking for a new job the day their H1B is approved. As such from the employer's point of view it is not easy to take advantage of the H1B holder.
After 20 some odd years in the biz, I've been homeless for about 3 years now.
In large part, you can thank H1B workers for this.
People like me need options. Not necessarily to rejoin 'this level' of employment, but maybe to engage in the workplace in different facets than previously offered.
This is NOT to say I am against H1B. But what I am advocating is providing options for those it displaces, which right now, these H1Bs are causing a systemic backlash against them that they simply are not prepared to handle.
Yup. That's a threat.
The court held the agreement binding. I didn't get any more details than that.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
http://wh.gov/iCfVS will save the world from Oligarchy
Casteism