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Belize's "Blue Hole" Reveals Clues To Maya's Demise

An anonymous reader writes The collapse of the Mayan civilization has been a mystery for decades, but now new research suggests that the blue hole of Belize could provide an answer. Studying minerals from Belize's famous underwater cave, researchers have discovered that an extreme drought occurred between AD 800 and AD 900, which is when the Mayan civilization collapsed. From the article: "Although the findings aren't the first to tie a drought to the Mayan culture's demise, the new results strengthen the case that dry periods were indeed the culprit. That's because the data come from several spots in a region central to the Mayan heartland, said study co-author André Droxler, an Earth scientist at Rice University."

80 comments

  1. Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's so bad that even the past is affected.

    1. Re:Global warming! by cyberchondriac · · Score: 4, Funny

      They should have performed more sacrifices!

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    2. Re:Global warming! by CaptainDork · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This.

      And, poor farming practices -- not entirely the Mayan's fault -- and a refusal to migrate away from great wealth and technology.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    3. Re:Global warming! by Livius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Regional climate change brings down civilizations -- maybe global climate change is something to take seriously.

    4. Re:Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They did. They kept performing sacrifices until they were too few to maintain a civilization. Then the few remaining people wandered off.

    5. Re:Global warming! by Livius · · Score: 2

      In other words, climate change caused by human activity?

    6. Re:Global warming! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Their calendar was just a little bit off, is all. Just a minor bug. Could happen to anybody, you know. Would you like to buy a parrot?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:Global warming! by drainbramage · · Score: 2

      And an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.

      --
      No brain, no pain.
    8. Re:Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's Blame Bush!

    9. Re:Global warming! by kencurry · · Score: 1

      Aha, so it was not the global warming that caused their extinction but the human sacrifices. Got it!

      --
      sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
    10. Re:Global warming! by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows that is not possible. The climate never changed before the age of SUVs.

    11. Re:Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that you didn't read TFA, right?

      From TFA...

      "The main driver of this drought is thought to have been a shift in the intertropical convergence zone (ITCZ), a weather system that generally dumps water on tropical regions of the world while drying out the subtropics."

      This new theory has supplanted the old speculation that it was caused by deforestation.

    12. Re:Global warming! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      And fracking!

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    13. Re:Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was not my understanding.

      There is suggestive evidence that the exact same climactic changes that caused drying on the Yucatan and Southern Mexico also caused severe cold weather in Europe. Not sure where that stands today, but that's the last I heard of it.

      If still authoritative, this suggests intercontinental effects that are too large for the Maya to have caused, certainly not on their own. They had neither the total population nor the geographic area required to effect changes on this scale.

    14. Re:Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused? Were the Mayans white heterosexual christian male Americans?

      I was under the impression they were the source of all evil and wrong in this world and that everyone and everything else was faultless and contained a heart of gold.

    15. Re:Global warming! by Optali · · Score: 2

      Well, it is happening right now in a lot of places and it has happened in the past in the USA too during the infamouse "Dust Bowl Years" in the 1930s.

      It is also notorious in a huge part of the Mediterranean such as Spain where human activity has changed the whole southern sea shore from a Mediterranean climate rich in woods into a desert with a large erosion (I have been able to see land eroding away some 2-3 meters in a couple of years). This is Climate Change, and it is certainly Human Induced unless you want to claim that agriculture, wrong type of irrigation and water misuse (=golf fields), wrong crops and cutting down the woods for real estate speculation have all been caused by solar spots or that the images on Google Maps are actually based on counterfeit data from the IPCC. And this is happening all around the world since the Green Revolution began. So that we are talking about a Global Climate Change that is obviously human induced.

      And here we are also reaching some tipping points: One of hem is the scarcity of fertile soil and water which is causing displacement of populations right now, through "voluntary" migration but also through land steal as global coroporations are trying to seize fertile soil for cash crops meant to feed cattle.

      I would like to see Mr Inhofe trying to deny this. Good luck with that Jimmy.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    16. Re:Global warming! by Optali · · Score: 1

      Yeah, me too.
      AFAIK it was during the "Little Ice Age"

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    17. Re:Global warming! by Optali · · Score: 1

      Well, at least we don't need automatic guns as Penis Substitutes.

      And we write English using the correct spelling ;)

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    18. Re:Global warming! by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      America is not interested in global issues, since they only affect "foreigners" who are "abroad."

      On average, they just don't get that there is an outside world.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. megadrought theory old by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not really new news to me, 30 years ago taught that a megadrought was likely cause for collapse of most (not all, continued in the north) of Mayan civilization

    1. Re:megadrought theory old by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This seems to be confirmation of that old hypothesis (not theory).

    2. Re:megadrought theory old by Lumpy · · Score: 0

      Most of the North American Indian population was due to a fast spreading disease. historical reports of the tons of expeditions that were here before columbus showed up reported a lot larger population as well as what looked like disease spreading. Remember columbus was simply a mee-too and did not discover anything at all.

      Also remember that American history hide the realities of the American Indians. They had HUGE cities that were as large as some european cities.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:megadrought theory old by rubycodez · · Score: 3, Informative

      there was evidence for it, so more than hypothesis

    4. Re:megadrought theory old by MPBoulton · · Score: 1

      Drought also makes a lot more sense than the other theories put forward in TFA.

    5. Re:megadrought theory old by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      Oh, what other european from central or southern Europe discovered the Americas before Columbus? What record did the norse people who discovered the americas leave in their land of origin (ditto question for the waves of asians who came before that).

      Remember, "discover" in the context of exploration does not mean first human ever to find a land. It means finding something unknown to a person or group, that's all. Columbus discovered the Americas for the civilization that sent him.

    6. Re:megadrought theory old by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Which has precisely nothing to do with the Mayans, since no Europeans visited any diseases upon them.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    7. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really news to anyone who is really from North America. There is more than enough evidence that a lot of these people moved north and though the culture itself was changed it wasn't destroyed in some global catastrophe. I mean I'm only 1/16th native but I can tell from the way my face looks.

    8. Re:megadrought theory old by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also remember that American history hide the realities of the American Indians. They had HUGE cities that were as large as some european cities.

      Which "American history" hides this? What I had in HS 30 years ago mentioned Aztec, Maya, Inca cities quite clearly. As well as the droughts and smallpox that seems to have done them in.

      Or were you trying to suggest that the Indians north of the Rio Grande also had huge cities? If so, then, to put it politely, you were mistaken....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or were you trying to suggest that the Indians north of the Rio Grande also had huge cities? If so, then, to put it politely, you were mistaken....

      Depends on your definition of 'huge' but 100,000 people seems reasonably large.

    10. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This guy is probably a Jehovah's Witness because they believe there were huge cities in what became the United States over 1,000 years before Columbus set out for the New World. In fact, they give their invented civilizations names such as Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites and the Book of Mormon talks something about someone named Zarahemla. Of course, there is absolutely no archeaological evidence to back any of this up (and plenty to refute it).

    11. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems to be confirmation of that old hypothesis (not theory).

      Well, not really. This is further confirmation that the drought happened and helps with getting better accuracy for the period it occurred.
      This doesn't really help confirming that the drought is to blame for the Mayan collapse.

    12. Re:megadrought theory old by C0R1D4N · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He is incorrect saying "before Columbus" but the first expeditions onto mainland America in the early 1500s showed massive populations that weren't there at the time of early colonization in the late 1500s/early 1600s.

    13. Re:megadrought theory old by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Or were you trying to suggest that the Indians north of the Rio Grande also had huge cities? If so, then, to put it politely, you were mistaken....

      Depends on your definition of 'huge' but 100,000 people seems reasonably large.

      Precisely. Besides, IIRC, at the time, Mexico City was significantly more populous than Paris. And had much better sanitation. But I'm not sure if I ever read it in a textbook.

    14. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which has precisely nothing to do with the Mayans, since no Europeans visited any diseases upon them.

      I am mayan, and there are plenty of mayans in mexico, belize and guatemala. I hate that people think we died long ago. We got visited plenty by the europeans. And still continue to this day be visited by europeans.

    15. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or were you trying to suggest that the Indians north of the Rio Grande also had huge cities? If so, then, to put it politely, you were mistaken....

      Umm..How about Cahokia?

    16. Re:megadrought theory old by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Aren't theories kind of systematic? As in, general, not just speculations about one event.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    17. Re:megadrought theory old by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but there are always some immune people who survive. And the recurring diseases become increasingly less effective at limiting the population. So this shouldn't be surprising.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    18. Re:megadrought theory old by Delwin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Jehovah's Witness != Mormon.

      Two different religions who knock on your door. Please don't confuse them.

    19. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Chaco Canyon? Anisazi? Cahokia? Just saying.

    20. Re:megadrought theory old by T.E.D. · · Score: 2
      The Mississippians did in fact have proper cities, and even some bronze use. This is in fact to be expected anywhere you have a fertile river valley, cultivatable crops, and human beings. The largest we know of was at present day East St. Louis, and was likely 6,000-40,000 people at its height (about 1/2 to 1/3 the population of Paris at that time). They even had some bronze working going on there.

      But the important thing to know is that this is just one site. There were similar settlements all up and down the Mississippi and its tributaries. They are usually called "mounds" which is a funny way to talk about a town/city if you ask me. There's even one here in Oklahoma, complete with native copper artifacts. And there are more that were either destroyed, or perhaps have not been found for some reason. We know there were several mowed over when St. Louis was being built in the 1800's.

    21. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't argue facts with religious nuts. You just waste your time and anger the pig.

    22. Re:megadrought theory old by JerryLove · · Score: 1

      there was evidence for it, so more than hypothesis

      That *is* the definition of a hypothsis. Without evidence it would be a "wild ass guess"... perhaps even a "scientific wild ass guess".

      When that hypothesis makes predictions capable of falsifying the model, and those predictions are tested and shown accurate... then we can discuss "theory".

    23. Re:megadrought theory old by umghhh · · Score: 1

      The disease can be catapulted into a new land without 'discovery' - I mean it is enough that some good christian visit the heathens, pass on a few bugs and never manage to come back and here you go - spread disease without discovery.

    24. Re:megadrought theory old by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

      Get well soon.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    25. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you went to a better high school or standards have dropped in recent times. When I was in high school about ten years ago there was no mention of Aztec, Mayan, or Incan civilizations in American History. Lots of coverage for the Revolution and government set-up, some coverage of the beginning of the Civil War, lots of coverage of WWI, some coverage of the Great Depression, and some coverage of WWII.

    26. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes hard to claim you discovered something that has been in the Wikipedia since forever. What they have done is another climate reconstruction that agrees with previous ones. Useful but hardly earth shattering.

      Rainfall in the area is influenced mostly then the ENSO system. Reconstructions have shown a ~1500 year cycle in intensity of ENSO events, which coincides with this drought.

    27. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aw, don't be so hard on yourself.

    28. Re:megadrought theory old by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      100,000 people in Cahokia in the 13th century would have made it about two or three times larger than London at the time.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    29. Re:megadrought theory old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All religions that knock on my door are spun from the same fabric. Please observe and respect this.

    30. Re:megadrought theory old by Optali · · Score: 1

      Where are these "historical records" of these "tons of expeditions" that were there "before Columbus" ?

      And well, we actually know that the South American Indians had big cities, ever heard of Tenochtitlan? Well, they use to call it Mexico DC right now.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    31. Re:megadrought theory old by Optali · · Score: 1

      Ignorant! You forget about the many expeditions of the all-powerful Swiss Navy!
      Not to speak about Jesus, who was a native Amsterdammer, as it is easy to notice by his blond long hair and stoned look. He just walked over there and discovered America one day he went to visit a Rastafarian friend of his to buy some weed.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    32. Re:megadrought theory old by Optali · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I have also a few Mayan friends. If I don't recall it wrongly 70% of the population of Guatemala is Mayan, right?

      The Mayan classical culture disappeared, being one of the reason that the Mayan themselves went tired of tyrants and went back to living outside of the great cities in small communities as you are doing right now.

       

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    33. Re:megadrought theory old by Optali · · Score: 1

      Well, if I have to believe Wikipedia, London housed 80.000 souls back in 1300...

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    34. Re:megadrought theory old by Optali · · Score: 1

      I am 100% native, I am completely native from the site I was born, not a single piece was imported. Unless mom lied to me... and (shudder) the only "imported" males back then were US Soldiers!! Shit, maybe this explains my love for lighting crosses in my neighbors backyards and my love for guns... We are unfortunately not allowed to own our own howitzers and ground-to-ground missiles and as we aren't quite religious here our local extremist Hutaree militia meetings are rather boring.

       

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    35. Re:megadrought theory old by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The source I used said "At the time of the Domesday Book in 1086 London had a population of about 18,000. By the 14th century it rose to about 45,000." Either way, it's not important: the point I was making is that Cahokia was bigger than London, which is impressive no matter how much bigger it was.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  3. Global warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    You do realize that current leading theories of the cause of the drought in question was mass deforestation caused by the Mayan Civilization?

  4. A time period when a lot happened. by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

    At the same time the Vikings started to become a factor in Northern Europe. So it's not improbable that this was a global phenomenon where many other changes also occurred.

    Wikipedia attributes the fall of the Mayan Civilization to the 10th century, but some delay from cause to effect is not unexpected.

    In any case - this overall indicates that changes topples some structures while new ones starts to thrive. If your civilization starts to relax then nature will throw something unexpected at you and if you have become too stagnant then you are out and will become a footnote in history.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  5. "Evidence", not clues. by T.E.D. · · Score: 1
    ...we were already pretty sure "whodunit".

    Although the findings aren't the first to tie a drought to the Mayan culture's demise, the new results strengthen the case that dry periods were indeed the culprit.

    This is kind of an understatement. Drought has been one of the (if not THE) leading theories for the Mayan decline source. Jared Diamond called it out as the cause in his popular book Collapse almost a decade ago.

    Its good to see some more data points confirming this theory, but that appears to be all this is.

    1. Re:"Evidence", not clues. by Noah+Haders · · Score: 0

      i came here to say the exact opposite thing: evidence, not discovery. FTFS:

      Studying minerals from Belize's famous underwater cave, researchers have discovered that an extreme drought occurred between AD 800 and AD 900

      i chafe whenever anybody says something like "scientists discovered that...". A good scientist will tell you that all he does is find evidence which may support or contradict a number of competing theories. Nobody "discovers" anything.

    2. Re: "Evidence", not clues. by Sique · · Score: 1

      Almost a decade ago? Wow! When I was a child three decades ago, I read a book from the 1960ies, where this theory already was put forward -- based on evidence from excavations in the 1930ies. What is really interesting is the new evidence which is not based on cultural artefacts.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re: "Evidence", not clues. by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Not unexpected (but cool to know!). Jared Diamond is essentially a popular non-fiction author who can "speak science" thanks to a background in Biology. Thus any information in his books is known ("old") information being synthesized for a popular audience. Sometimes the logical results of that synthesis might be somewhat novel, but the information itself is not. So I knew when I read it (again a decade ago), that this must have already been the accepted consensus for a while.

      The book by the way is Collapse. It has a whole chapter on the decline of the Maya, so it may be a worthwhile read for anyone interested in this topic.

    4. Re: "Evidence", not clues. by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      I would also recommend the more recent work (2005) of scientific popularization 1491 by Charles Mann. He also has a good section devoted to the Maya.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
  6. Well, be chafed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nobody "discovers" anything.

    That is patently ridiculous. Definition of "discover":

    to see, find, or become aware of (something) for the first time
    to show the presence of (something hidden or difficult to see) : to make (something) known
    to learn or find out (something surprising or unexpected)

    The "finding of evidence" sounds exactly like what is defined here. Evidence itself is discovered. If the just-discovered evidence is sufficiently compelling to accept a conclusion, then as a matter of linguistic convenience we can say that the conclusion was also "discovered."

    People discover things all the time. Your strange understanding of the word's meaning is not shared by the rest of the world, so you can count on people continuing to chafe you into the future.

  7. Seek help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    greenwow, you really need to see a therapist. Obsessive behavior is the way of your kind (nut jobs that is).

  8. Hello California by rainer_d · · Score: 2

    Look into the past to see your future.

    --
    Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    1. Re:Hello California by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look into the past to see your future.

      No problem, when there's no more water to steal from the Sierras or the Colorado River, we'll just have to look farther out and build longer aquaducts...

    2. Re:Hello California by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      No, no, I'm sure we're due to slip off in the ocean any time now.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
  9. Not a Mystery by tquasar · · Score: 2

    It's been repeated many times. Sinagua, without water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... The Anasazi: http://www.desertusa.com/ind1/... QED.

  10. What A LAUGHER!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The first sentence says a lot about an article. And what a hoot it is. "The collapse of the Mayan civilization has been a mystery for decades."

    Really? Decades? Wow. I wonder if George Washington slept there?

  11. "Blue Hole"? Not porn, is a sinkhole by Bearhouse · · Score: 0
    1. Re:"Blue Hole"? Not porn, is a sinkhole by Optali · · Score: 1

      Not porn?
      In this case I am afraid that I am not interested.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
  12. Evidence of a drought in a pool of water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Delicious...

  13. Offense to the gods? by mveloso · · Score: 1

    Wow, they must have really ticked off their gods. A 100 year drought? What did they do, accidentally sacrifice a non-virgin?

  14. Here we go again, send in the clowns! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The climate changes, all the time, and if you are a big group of people living of the fat of the land without large scale trade to similar groups far enough away you will suffer badly eventually as less abundant times come around and you can't import food.

    Nothing to do with global warming or cooling, it is about logistics and supply chain management.

    If the Maya had big ships and friends in Canada they may have ended up colonising Spain.

    Boom or bust, no in trade we trust!

  15. Mayan Calendar by TuxWithoutPants · · Score: 1

    So their End of the World calendar was just a tick late?

    1. Re:Mayan Calendar by Optali · · Score: 1

      Well, yeah, my fault. I should have configured it to use an NTP server... and then the BIOS battery died and the rest is history.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    2. Re:Mayan Calendar by TuxWithoutPants · · Score: 1

      Ran out of sacrifices before the end?

  16. Fertility god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All civilizations march on their stomachs. Their mythology will explain the source of the fertility which sustains them as the output of their god.