Apple Pay For the UK

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Posted by samzenpus on Monday December 29, 2014 @11:30AM from the it's-coming-sometime-and-maybe dept.

An anonymous reader writes about when Apple Pay will be available in the UK. "A major UK bank's concern over data collected by Apple Pay is reportedly stalling negotiations to launch the mobile payments service in the country by 'the first half of 2015.' The Telegraph reports that 'at least one' of the UK's biggest banks is 'uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers.' Apple has been adamant about its approach to collecting users' data via Apple Pay. 'We are not in the business of collecting your data,' said Apple exec Eddy Cue when introducing the service in September. 'So when you go to a physical business and use Apple Pay, Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, or how much you paid for it. The transaction is between you, the merchant, and your bank.'"

75 comments

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

If Apple is not in the business of collecting personal data, and don't know what you bought or for how much, then why do they require your information from the bank?
1. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:38 · Score: 0
  
  Maybe they need it for the NSA?
2. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:41 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Who says they do? We're sitting staring at an article in which a reporter says that someone else says that a bank says that Apple wants your data.
  The reporter has an ulterior motive in that they want to sell newspapers and keep their job
  The someone else has an ulterior motive in that they want to be paid for their story from the newspaper
  The bank has an ulterior motive in that they don't want Apple getting a foot hold in the banking sector, so they will try to attack Apple's core message.
  Until someone actually says what this data that Apple is supposedly collecting is, and shows where and how they're collecting it, I call bullshit.
3. Re:if not collecting the data by penix1 · 2014-12-29 12:45 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  At the risk of getting modded to oblivion, I consider Apple Pay the same as I consider Google Wallet. It is like broadband availability in that it will be predominately a big city thing. In rural areas like where I live I don't see it working. Hell, I saw my first Apple Pay commercial this holiday season and even the bigger stores such as Walmart in my area doesn't have the receivers for this. It simply requires too much involvement from too many entities to be feasible everywhere. First, the buyer has to have confidence in the tech and more importantly the security of that tech. We aren't there yet. Second, it requires the merchant to install the receivers which are costly and again, the trust that it will be secure has to be there. Lastly, it requires the cooperation of the bank to honor payment requests from the receivers.
  Again, this may work in larger cities but in the vast majority of rural America I don't see it.
  
  --
  This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
4. Re:if not collecting the data by thejynxed · 2014-12-29 13:00 · Score: 0
  
  Total sale amount, tax amount, location, time of day,other telemetry data, age of purchaser, name of purchaser, address of purchaser, address of the location, etc of the shop where the purchase was made, and of course Apple's own cut of the deal. There's probably more involving the back end of your banking facility, such as which bank and/or account was used to make the purchase during the transaction.
  That's what I can think of off of the top of my head.
  
  --
  @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
5. Re:if not collecting the data by The+Good+Reverend · 2014-12-29 13:15 · Score: 1
  
  Any company that contracts out their POS terminals and accepts credit and debit cards (so, just about everyone) can get a terminal that accepts NFC payments.
  My local large grocery story (Albertson's, in southern California) has accepted Apple Pay from the start, even though their terminals don't look any different than anyone else's, and don't have the typical separate plastic thing that you're supposed to touch your phone to. The whole thing is built into the user-accessible terminal, and Apple Pay just works.
  Stores don't own these terminals, and the companies that provide/service them can either turn on the functionality (if the terminal has it built in) or replace the terminal with a newer model (which happens regularly anyway). It's not a matter of having to run new lines out to the boonies - if they take credit cards, they can likely accept NFC payments.
6. Re:if not collecting the data by rsborg · 2014-12-29 13:24 · Score: 2
  
  I consider Apple Pay the same as I consider Google Wallet. It is like broadband availability in that it will be predominately a big city thing. In rural areas like where I live I don't see it working
  Except Apple Pay is expressly designed to prevent what Google Wallet does - which is to correlate your purchases to a credit card. It even prevents the merchant from such correlation. Google Wallet does it differently - they issue a virtual card that, while protecting your CC number from the merchant, still allows you to be correlated by Google. Apple is simply implementing EMV payment tokenization - it's a standard [1].
  The only company who retains this is the credit card issuer, who will have to authorize such payments and maintain the credit balance (which you're not going to get away from without going to decentralized trade systems like bitcoin, and even then the block chain retains payment details - it's not anonymous).
  Between Apple Pay and cash, I can remain relatively protected against my personal information from being stolen by some retailer's crappy security model (I still have to worry about the CC issuers but I'll take what I can get). I also don't feed Google's insatiable desire to index me.
  
  --
  Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
7. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 13:27 · Score: 0
  
  Along the same lines, if something is "free" in the app store, why do I need to login to download it ?
  You are not tracking me, but wont let me download a free item without a way to identify who i am when the software i am tring to download is "third party" and not even from apple?
8. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:02 · Score: 0
  
  The reason you don't see it available in Walmart is they are trying to create a merchant sponsored alternative (CurrentC) to Google Wallet and Apple Pay in order to side step the credit card transaction fees they currently pay, but their system relies upon you providing your checking account info so there is NO consumer protection if a merchant withdrawals too much or you have complaint and want to suspend payment until resolved.
  Next year in the US merchants will be required to upgrade their terminals to accept chip enabled credit cards and these terminals are almost assured to also be NFC capable as well. If merchants decide not to upgrade, the merchant and not the credit card issuer will be responsible for bogus charges.
  And finally regarding the security, ApplePay is single use token based and none of your account info is transferred during the sale so the retailer so the retailer, which should limit them from being targeted by hackers. Additionally, the credit card issuers believe the system to be more secure than using credit cards and Apple negotiated a lower transaction fee because of it.
9. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 14:23 · Score: 0
  
  Apple Pay for the UK
  Is coming this year, and it may be,
  An insecure flight of your payment bytes
  Your future dream is a VC's scheme
  
  Do they need it for eBay?
  Or do they need it for SquarePay?
  For credit cards leaked from Target?
  
  Maybe they need it for the NSA?
  
  Or just another country!
  Or another Slasdhot tenancy!
10. Re:if not collecting the data by TheSunborn · 2014-12-29 15:00 · Score: 2
  
  Is it a standard us thing, that a merchant get access to any card data when the customer pays with a credit card in a physical shop?
  Here in Denmark, a normal merchant newer has access to your card data even if you pay with a credit card.
  The data is sent directly from the credit card terminal(The hardware which read the card and card code) to dibs/nets(The payment gateway for credit cards) which then reserve the money and sends a message back to the terminal about the status of the transaction. This transaction status is then send to the merchants cash register to together with the last 4 digits of the credit card number.
11. Re:if not collecting the data by jo_ham · 2014-12-29 15:31 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  Apple exec Eddy Cue when introducing the service in September. 'So when you go to a physical business and use Apple Pay, Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, or how much you paid for it. The transaction is between you, the merchant, and your bank.
  You should probably read the summary before thinking "off the top of your head".
12. Re:if not collecting the data by zenaida_valdez · 2014-12-29 16:22 · Score: 2
  
  "It's not a matter of having to run new lines out to the boonies - if they take credit cards, they can likely accept NFC payments."
  Wrong.
  Like most small businesses, ours takes credit cards, and the reader is connected to the dialup fax line. Swipe the card, enter a number and... wait until it dials, Beep Boop Beez Buzzzzz it sounds like a 14,400 modem in there. Takes about 30 seconds, assuming that the fax line isn't busy. Not a problem when you only swipe a few dozen a day, but the whole point of the shiny flashy phone is that you tap and go. We're not going to invest in the infrastructure to save our clients 30 seconds once a week.
13. Re:if not collecting the data by The+Good+Reverend · 2014-12-29 16:28 · Score: 1
  
  Don't most modern terminals use an internet connection (always on) to transfer data? Assuming you have a data connection, would you really need to "invest in infrastructure" to do this? Or are you far enough away from civilization that they don't have the internet out there yet?
14. Re:if not collecting the data by Noah+Haders · 2014-12-29 17:56 · Score: 1
  
  is your situation the norm in the "boonies"? I can't think that it is. i imagine most everywhere other than truly isolated regions there is cellular signals, and if so it's easy to run a tethered internet connction (note: the data needs for a CC processor is tiny compared to surfing the web). so unless you're in the alaskan outback i don't understand why boonie infrastructure would be a problem.
15. Re:if not collecting the data by davester666 · 2014-12-29 18:51 · Score: 2
  
  This is slashdot. I haven't even read the whole title of the article.
  
  --
  Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
16. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 20:13 · Score: 0
  
  Obvious bullshit is obvious. Without knowing who to credit (not necessarily where, but related) or how much you paid it's impossible to process the payment. Even bitcoin knows this information (although the identities are pseudonymised).
17. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 20:43 · Score: 0
  
  From my experience, the banks seem to want to put out old terminals whereever they can. Most of my customers have had to request IP based ones. I know they get charged for the terminal upgrade, but I dont know if they charge more in rates.
  And as for being close enough to civilisation to get internet, the second problem is getting reliable internet. I dont see that in the country or city - it ends up pot luck. I have to wonder sometimes if they just cycle bad connections to people that dont complain sometimes....
18. Re:if not collecting the data by TheRaven64 · 2014-12-29 20:44 · Score: 1
  
  That doesn't necessarily have to be for tracking, it can simply be that they want to encourage people to buy things. There are three steps of resistance that you need to overcome: creating an account, associating a credit card with it, deciding that a particular program is worth the money. If you require creating an account for free things then you're one step closer to getting people to hand over money for other things.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
19. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:10 · Score: 0
  
  Or your phone makes a direct connection to the bank, without apple listening in.
20. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 21:56 · Score: 0
  
  Along the same lines, if something is "free" in the app store, why do I need to login to download it ?
  So you can re-download it for free even when it no longer is.
21. Re:if not collecting the data by BasilBrush · 2014-12-29 22:13 · Score: 2
  
  How many more years do you imagine you'll be relying on a 1980s/90s standard data line? In most of the developed world consumers would be in an uproar of they didn't have more than 1 Mbps (A)DSL. And you're running a business on a dial-up line?
  Don't imagine your backwoods experience is any limitation on the majority.
22. Re:if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 04:01 · Score: 0
  
  Why would Apple be involved in the payment at all? All the phone is doing is a little encryption to verify that you actually agreed to the payment. That token then just gets sent through the normal bank transaction system.
23. Re: if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 05:13 · Score: 0
  
  Even ignoring the payment system, they already track your location for the purposes of ads.
  And no, I'm not talking about Google.
  So to say they don't collect any information is complete bs.
24. Re: if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 05:17 · Score: 0
  
  You haven't cited any information to back up your statements.
  At best, your bank will be invading your privacy, so you can't rest assured about anything unless you're burying your head in the sand... which most people like you like to do.
25. Re: if not collecting the data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 05:22 · Score: 0
  
  Hahah, negotiating a lower transaction fee? End user or even content provider saving money? Even if they did negotiate, they're keeping the extra.
  Hahahaha, we're talking about the same company that fucked dropbox because they simply tried to put a link to subscribe to their services, right? Almost forced devs to charge the same 30% fee across the board, even on alternate services like Amazon?
  Hahaha, another one keeps his eyes closed.
26. Re:if not collecting the data by Optali · 2014-12-30 22:30 · Score: 1
  
  Fuck!!! Yeah!!!!
  Sex Pistols !!!
  Never Mind the Bitcoins !!
  
  --
  -- 29A the number of the Beast
27. Re:if not collecting the data by rsborg · 2014-12-31 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  Is it a standard us thing, that a merchant get access to any card data when the customer pays with a credit card in a physical shop?
  Here in Denmark, a normal merchant newer has access to your card data even if you pay with a credit card.
  The data is sent directly from the credit card terminal(The hardware which read the card and card code) to dibs/nets(The payment gateway for credit cards) which then reserve the money and sends a message back to the terminal about the status of the transaction. This transaction status is then send to the merchants cash register to together with the last 4 digits of the credit card number.
  In short, yes. The USA is very behind most of Europe when it comes to credit card security, and is just now looking to catch up. By late 2015, credit card issuers can push liability for fraud to merchants if they haven't adopted EMV or some form of card tokenization. That's why there's such a push for things like Apple Pay.
  
  --
  Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
28. Re:if not collecting the data by jo_ham · 2015-01-03 00:44 · Score: 1
  
  Obvious bullshit is obvious. Without knowing who to credit (not necessarily where, but related) or how much you paid it's impossible to process the payment. Even bitcoin knows this information (although the identities are pseudonymised).
  You clearly don't understand how Apple Pay works.
  The combination of the phone's ID, your fingerprint hash and some other tokens generate a unique hash that is sent to the bank via the merchant terminal to authorise a payment. This check comes back as pass/fail, and if passed, the merchant terminal charges the card/account etc. At no point during this transaction does the phone (or Apple) know what the amount is, what the store is, or any of that information. All the Phone is doing is providing a key hash to the merchant who then talks to the bank.
  This is why you need a participating bank/card issuer to use Apple Pay - the bank needs to be able to verify that hash came from you, and thus allow the charge to go through.
Bank wants data by danomatika · 2014-12-29 11:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Maybe the issue is really that the BANK wants that data and Apple isn't giving it to them ...
1. Re:Bank wants data by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:44 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Entirely plausible actually. The banks may well want a bunch of transaction information that Apple is unwilling to provide.
2. Re:Bank wants data by peragrin · 2014-12-29 12:00 · Score: 1
  
  While okay in concept with Apple pay the Banks do collect that data. it is with Google wallet that they get denied the data.
  At least that is how Apple Pay is supposed to work.
  
  --
  i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
3. Re:Bank wants data by BoRegardless · 2014-12-29 12:01 · Score: 1
  
  Actually in a larger sense, the "Bank" doesn't want to see the day that Apple launches "iBank."
4. Re:Bank wants data by Feral+Nerd · 2014-12-29 21:56 · Score: 1
  
  Actually in a larger sense, the "Bank" doesn't want to see the day that Apple launches "iBank."
  Or maybe they are just worried that iBank may lead to Google to leverage it's near monopoly on the mobile OS market in order to set up 'BankDroid'? Google fell on it's face with Google-Wallet but they did pretty well at innovating with mobile OSes after Apple showed them how to do it so maybe they'll reuse the same strategy to revamp Google-Wallet into BankDroid. That certainly is a scary thought, I'd rather have a few wolves fighting over the pay portal market than have Google exterminate the competition and be the only player on the field.
They just don't like to share by MPBoulton · 2014-12-29 11:44 · Score: 3

"The Telegraph reports that 'at least one' of the UK's biggest banks is 'uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers'."
The bank is clearly appealed at the thought of someone else having as much customer data as the bank itself. The banks use this data to target their other products (credit cards, mortgages) at the right customers and clearly don't want Apple getting ideas about setting up their own financial products and having the data to do so profitably.
1. Re:They just don't like to share by SeaFox · 2014-12-29 12:24 · Score: 1
  
  "The Telegraph reports that 'at least one' of the UK's biggest banks is 'uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers'."
  The bank is clearly appealed at the thought of someone else having as much customer data as the bank itself.
  
  No, I don't think that appeals to the bank at all. They might be appalled, though.
2. Re:They just don't like to share by turkeydance · 2014-12-29 12:35 · Score: 1
  
  If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them. He must let us draw the water from the well.
3. Re:They just don't like to share by Cederic · 2014-12-29 23:36 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The bank is also heavily regulated and obliged to cover customers' losses to fraud and responsible for identifying money laundering activity.
  Apple are.. not.
Typical "Big Lie" by Thagg · 2014-12-29 11:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

What the banks are really concerned about is not that Apple is collecting information, but that their customers will realize the opposite -- that using Apple pay is far more secure than other systems. If people start waking up to the fact that all of the information merchants are getting from credit cards can and will be used against them; then systems like Apple Pay are going to destroy the status quo.
What better way to try to stop this then by spouting a Big Lie? The banks are saying that they are worried that Apple is collecting too much information. If they can seed doubt into customers for long enough, then they may succeed in killing it.

--
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
1. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by SJ · 2014-12-29 12:20 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No. The quote was "...the amount of data...". See how they don't specify if it's too much or not enough.
  I'm guessing the later. The Banks want MORE data, but Apple's system doesn't allow for it.
2. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 12:24 · Score: 0
  
  Do you honestly believe that the banks are selling credit card info, and that apple isn't sharing any of that info with anyone?
3. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by Thagg · 2014-12-29 12:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Do you honestly believe that the banks are selling credit card info, and that apple isn't sharing any of that info with anyone?
  I don't know if the banks are selling credit card info; but I know that merchants are. Apple Pay prevents them from doing that, which is one of the big reasons that so many merchants in the US have stopped using NFC for payments, as this earlier Slashdot story describes.
  A friend of mine was deeply involved in NFC payments at significant companies (not Apple) and says that not only is Apple not sharing the info; they can't. It's just not available. The NFC chips in the phone don't send out identifiable information.
  
  --
  I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
4. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by Noah+Haders · 2014-12-29 18:02 · Score: 1
  
  meh. from the banks' perspective, Apple Pay IS the status quo. customers are still using CCs issued by the banks, and the banks get to earn interest on the loans. Apple Pay is threatening Visa, Mastercard, etc. These people should be sweating bullets.
5. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by AmiMoJo · 2014-12-30 00:04 · Score: 0
  
  Apple must get your purchase history, or there would be no way to transfer the money to the merchant. They might only get the total amount and merchant ID, but that's pretty significant for profiling.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
6. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 03:40 · Score: 0
  
  Apple must get your purchase history, or there would be no way to transfer the money to the merchant. They might only get the total amount and merchant ID, but that's pretty significant for profiling.
  Gee, you still don't know how Apple Pay works? Apple is in no way involved in transferring money.
7. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by tlhIngan · 2014-12-30 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  Apple must get your purchase history, or there would be no way to transfer the money to the merchant. They might only get the total amount and merchant ID, but that's pretty significant for profiling.
  Nope. That's Google Wallet, not Apple Pay.
  All Apple Pay is a very fancy secure credit card - basically by enrolling, your iPhone gets issued a virtual credit card number which is tied to it.
  When you use Apple Pay, that virtual credit card is what's used and it's a matter between the user's bank, the merchant's bank, and the card network to sort it out. Apple stays out of it other than at set up where Apple has to talk to the bank to enroll a card and get the virtual card number back.
  Apple doesn't bill anyone anything. Banks get all the same information they always got - they just need to link the virtual cards up to the cardholder.
  Perhaps the real issue is that banks want MORE information from Apple - like the user's email address (Apple ID), location information, how many other cards are enrolled and type, and perhaps even other card usage information (while Apple doesn't have this information, the iPhone does track so you can check all the transactions you did via Apple Pay and compare with your statement, so I'm guessing they want Apple to download that information and share it).
8. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by AmiMoJo · 2014-12-30 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  Apple stays out of it other than at set up where Apple has to talk to the bank to enroll a card and get the virtual card number back.
  So in other words, Apple gets a unique ID for your account (so they can generate the card) and details of the merchant, if not the actual amount you are spending. That's presumably why the banks are concerned - if Apple got nothing, they wouldn't care.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
9. Re:Typical "Big Lie" by Thagg · 2014-12-30 13:30 · Score: 1
  
  There is no "card". The chip in the iPhone generates a unique ID for every transaction, and that is all that is transmitted.
  
  --
  I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Yeah OK... by nicholas22 · 2014-12-29 11:45 · Score: 0

"uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers." - Apple executive
Yeah, right. F$$$ you Apple.
How appropriate... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 11:56 · Score: 0

"Apple Pay for the UK"
It's coming sometime and maybe
I give a wrong time stop a traffic line
Your future dream is a shopping scheme
Amount could be reduced, not increased... by SuperKendall · 2014-12-29 11:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

."It is understood the bank is uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers. "
Do realize that they could be uncomfortable because the amount of data Apple wants to collect is greatly REDUCED from what credit cards collect - the statement does not state which direction of the amount goes.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:Amount could be reduced, not increased... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 12:56 · Score: 0
  
  ...the statement does not state which direction of the amount goes.
  Say what?
2. Re:Amount could be reduced, not increased... by MitsuMirage · 2014-12-29 15:23 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Apple wants to collect NO information, an amount the banks find untenable. They, of course, run big data analytics on all their customers to target new products.
3. Re:Amount could be reduced, not increased... by houghi · 2014-12-30 01:19 · Score: 2
  
  Not sure about the UK, but in Belgium what the Credit Card Company collects is:
  Merchant. This can be a store in city A, while the transaction is done in the headoffice in city B.
  Transaction number, because the merchant is not allowed to store the credit card number.
  Time and amount.
  In Belgium it is not even allowed to do an analysis of the data to do e.g. a directed offer where you say "I see you buy a lot online"
  As the collected data is basically to assure a good transaction and followup on that transaction, I would not know why they would be worried to get less information.
  What they most likely are worried about is that Apple takes more information then is allowed and that, if they play along, they are at risk to loose their licence or at least pay a very heft fine.
  I do work with these types of companies and they are not happy if partners want to go above and beyond the law when it is about consumers.They will make it very, very clear that they do not agree with the practice, so that when (not if) a lawsuit comes, they can proof they did not had any hand in the practice.
  Apple has been shown not to care about European (or any other) laws and they do not want to be dragged along.
  Remember that Europe is more on the side of the people then on the side of companies. Especially when compared to the USofA.
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
4. Re:Amount could be reduced, not increased... by Computershack · 2014-12-30 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  Do realize that they could be uncomfortable because the amount of data Apple wants to collect is greatly REDUCED from what credit cards collect - the statement does not state which direction of the amount goes.
  Credit cards in the UK don't work like they do in the USA. The only thing the credit card company knows is how much you've spent and what retailer you've spent it at. They don't know what you've bought. My credit card company online statements break down spending into categories. Quite a lot of the time its in the wrong category because I've bought something somewhere which is not that company's main line of business. An example would be buying screenwash at Tesco for my car. It doesn't go through as automotive but groceries if I buy it from the store and not the supermarket forecourt.
  
  --
  I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
5. Re:Amount could be reduced, not increased... by SuperKendall · 2014-12-30 06:45 · Score: 1
  
  Credit cards in the UK don't work like they do in the USA. The only thing the credit card company knows is how much you've spent and what retailer you've spent it at.
  Apple Pay doesn't even know the amount you spent, it's job is only to verify the merchant you are at can use the payment token it is given.
  
  --
  "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apple Pay For the UK by rossdee · 2014-12-29 12:22 · Score: 1

Yes, they could - In a similar way to Bain Capital (Nitts old company) did business.
Then they could sell off Northern Ireland to Eire, and Scotland to BP , and Wales to the Japanese
???
Profit
Based on the headline by fibonacci8 · 2014-12-29 12:25 · Score: 3, Funny

My first thought was "How much did Apple pay for the UK?" They can probably afford it at this point.

--
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
1. Re:Based on the headline by Paradise+Pete · 2014-12-29 21:49 · Score: 2
  
  FWIW, Apple's stock is worth more than the entire Russian stock market combined.
2. Re:Based on the headline by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 01:56 · Score: 0
  
  Current estimates - 1000 Apple Inc's could buy the UK.
BS by dkman · 2014-12-29 12:29 · Score: 0, Flamebait

'So when you go to a physical business and use Apple Pay, Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, or how much you paid for it. The transaction is between you, the merchant, and your bank.'
Since nobody else said it I call bullshit on this.
Apple needs to know where you bought it (store, and probably IP or equivalent identifier for the device the transaction came through)
Apple needs to know how much you paid if it's collecting a percentage.
Apple doesn't need to know what you bought.
The first two need to be stored if you have any kind of audit / discrepancy dispute resolution. If there's a time span on when you can file a dispute then they don't need to store anything beyond that.

--
I refuse to sign
1. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 17:28 · Score: 1
  
  Apple needs to know where you bought it (store, and probably IP or equivalent identifier for the device the transaction came through)
  Why does Apple need to know that? The transaction is between you, the credit card issuer and the shop. There is no involvement with Apple in the transaction at all.
  
  Apple needs to know how much you paid if it's collecting a percentage.
  No they don't - they need to know the total amount bought by customers of that bank, not how much you, an individual customer paid.
Negotiation tactic nonsense; real reason buried by Anubis+IV · 2014-12-29 12:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

As the summary said, negotiations are ongoing. The fact that these claims are showing up right now and fly in the face of everything we've previously heard regarding Apple Pay seems to suggest that they are nothing more than a feeble attempt on the part of the banks to gain some better leverage in the negotiation process. They're hoping for outrage. Unfortunately, the only ones who give a crap about this stuff (i.e. us) are the ones who also know that Apple Pay is differentiating itself with its lack of collecting information.
As for why they'd want more leverage, the real reason is buried in the article:

The Telegraph also notes that some banking executives fear that Apple Pay could serve as a "beachhead for [Apple's] invasion of the banking industry."
Which is to say, the UK banks are concerned by the rapid uptick of Apple Pay in the US, are beginning to realize that it's gaining real traction, and are worried that it could be the means by which Apple establishes a toehold in the financial industry that allows them to begin exerting the sort of influence they have in other non-technology industries (e.g. music).
1. Re:Negotiation tactic nonsense; real reason buried by Carewolf · 2014-12-29 22:22 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  I think you missed the story yesterday about Apple being part of the group of companies defying DoNotTrack. Tracking might not be their primary business at the moment, but it is certainly something they are doing and something they are willing to take PR hits to protect.
  I would trust most UK banks over Apple any day.
2. Re:Negotiation tactic nonsense; real reason buried by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 03:59 · Score: 0
  
  I think you missed the story yesterday about Apple being part of the group of companies defying DoNotTrack.
  
  You mean the story that mentioned Apple once, but gave no evidence for anything? The article that failed to mention that Apple's browsers disable third-party-cookies by default, and are thus much better at Not-Tracking than the voluntary (for the advertisers) DNT? The default BTW Google felt the need to get around?
3. Re:Negotiation tactic nonsense; real reason buried by Anubis+IV · 2014-12-30 21:28 · Score: 2
  
  I didn't miss the story. I read it, in fact. It only mentioned Apple in passing as one of the members of the trade group in question, but because Apple makes for news, their name was plastered in the headline and summary on Slashdot. Meanwhile, the AC who responded to you pointed out that Apple took alternative practical steps to protect their user's privacy years ago, given that DNT was never an effective method to begin with.
  Anyway, I too would likely trust UK banks over Apple...when they're willing to speak publicly, on-the-record, in clear language, as Apple did when it made its claims regarding how Apple Pay operates. But when negotiations are ongoing, any sort of off-the-record statements from unnamed sources claiming to represent one of the sides involved should always be assumed to be an attempt on their part to gain the upper hand. Given that that's what we're dealing with here—an unnamed source representing one of the sides, making unsupported claims while negotiations are ongoing—we shouldn't read anything into it, beyond that Apple is probably playing hardball and the banks feel a need to push back.
  As for whether or not Apple is tracking users, they absolutely are. No doubt. They even admit as much in their terms of use/service for various things, such as iAd. But as the AC pointed out, Google and other companies are in a whole other league when it comes to tracking users (including illegal practices that resulted in fines from the FCC, such as the incident the AC referenced). Apple definitely tracks users, but in much more clearly defined ways (e.g. they publish white papers over exactly what data they collect, how they collect it, why they collect it, how they protect it, how they organize it, and for how long they keep it) that are much more limited in scope than their competitors.
  Let's not lump them in with Big Data just yet.
But... by Charliemopps · 2014-12-29 12:43 · Score: 1

'So when you go to a physical business and use Apple Pay, Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, or how much you paid for it. The transaction is between you, the merchant, and your bank.'"
But... Apple does know:
your Apple Pay ID.
your iPhones ID.
the location of the phone at the time (or any time for that matter)
The amount Apple collected for a fee in the transaction.
The percentage of the total purchase that fee was.
The price of every item in the store.
So yes, "...when you go to a physical business and use Apple Pay, Apple doesn't know what you bought, where you bought it, or how much you paid for it."
but about 30 seconds later, after doing some trivial SQL queries, they do know all of that.
Considering.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-29 20:57 · Score: 0

America still uses "checks" to pay for stuff, I think all the pokes at UK banks are laughable. They've been well ahead of the curve for a few years now and plenty of data protection laws were brought in since the big bust of 2007. Can't say I trust apple any more than them.
Yesss! We already are working on this in UK by DerekShadowalker · 2014-12-29 21:09 · Score: 2

I'm doing development for Seglan so I suppose that we have the system that will work in UK and rest of Europe for payments with mobile phone. And it's certified!!!

Our system is based in tokenization, like the one provided by Apple Pay, and already signed by major banks and issuers. So we are working hard to make it 'the market standard'. And of course, always open for business. But in our case we don't collect almost any data. Just neccessary for payment requirements, and geolocalization if agreed.

Seglan is a company that's on payment market for so long and provided already solutions for payment chip cards for all major banks. Some of them even doesn't know that Seglan is providing its core infrastructure. Cause we are small group of engineers that can make products evolve fast!!! :D

Please feel free to ask if you want more information.
1. Re:Yesss! We already are working on this in UK by gtall · 2014-12-30 01:09 · Score: 1
  
  Thank you for that commercial. Where else do you advertize, I cannot get enough of this.
You are all naive by ruir · 2014-12-29 21:29 · Score: 1

Banks are not "uncomfortable with the amount of information Apple wants to collect about its customers". Banks and competing services are really uncomfortable into having another competitor, losing control over your data and things you buy. The rest is just bullshit. It is amazing what Apple can motivate people to do, even in the shithole I live, until Apple announced the service nobody ever heard about NFC payments, now I know of at last 2 or 3 major bank services offering them. My own dad even received by email a new bank card with NFC, and the worrying part is that for payments bellow 20 euros, it does not require authentication. At least with Apple Pay you have to use your finger.
Great headline by wonkey_monkey · 2014-12-29 22:22 · Score: 1

Apple Pay For the UK
That's not ambiguous at all.

--
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
1. Re:Great headline by wonkey_monkey · 2014-12-29 23:00 · Score: 1
  
  Come to think of it, not only is it ambiguous, it doesn't even tell what you story is about - namely the delays in bring Apple Pay to the UK. It's like a story about the JFK assassination being headlined "President visits Dallas."
  
  --
  systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
The UK already has NFS payment cards by Anonymous Coward · 2014-12-30 09:07 · Score: 0

Why would anyone want to use their phone when NFC payment is already on their bank card and works on london transport, supermarkets and coffee shops?
Is it just for tourists from more backward countries? (OK , I'm teasing there - :-) )
By the way: by Anonymous Coward · 2015-01-11 09:44 · Score: 0

What was wrong with cash, again?