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At Oxford, a Battery That's Lasted 175 Years -- So Far

sarahnaomi writes There sits, in the Clarendon Laboratory at Oxford University, a bell that has been ringing, nonstop, for at least 175 years. It's powered by a single battery that was installed in 1840. Researchers would love to know what the battery is made of, but they are afraid that opening the bell would ruin an experiment to see how long it will last. The bell's clapper oscillates back and forth constantly and quickly, meaning the Oxford Electric Bell, as it's called, has rung roughly 10 billion times, according to the university. It's made of what's called a "dry pile," which is one of the first electric batteries. Dry piles were invented by a guy named Giuseppe Zamboni (no relation to the ice resurfacing company) in the early 1800s. They use alternating discs of silver, zinc, sulfur, and other materials to generate low currents of electricity.

211 comments

  1. let the experiment run by turkeydance · · Score: 0

    and ring. and ring again.

    1. Re: let the experiment run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm sure Chuck Berry would agree that is an awfully long time to be playing with your ding-a-ling!

  2. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    From The Fucking Article

    "You'd think it'd be annoying as hell for a bell to be going off, constantly, for 175 years—but the voltage left in the battery is so low that the human ear can't actually hear the ringing. Instead, the clapper oscillates back and forth between the bell constantly, which you can see happening in this video. At this point, the experiment is more of a curiosity than anything—Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bell’s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy."

    1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wonder how long it hasn't been ringing for.

    2. Re:Bullshit by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 0

      *nanoAmp...

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      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    3. Re:Bullshit by dj245 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From The Fucking Article

      "You'd think it'd be annoying as hell for a bell to be going off, constantly, for 175 years—but the voltage left in the battery is so low that the human ear can't actually hear the ringing. Instead, the clapper oscillates back and forth between the bell constantly, which you can see happening in this video. At this point, the experiment is more of a curiosity than anything—Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bell’s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy."

      1 nanoamp is so tiny that it may be being recharged from the environment somehow.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    4. Re:Bullshit by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      From a little googling, the voltage between the terminals is 2 kV. The clapper draws about 1 nA.

      (175 years) * (2 kV) * (1 nA) = 11045 Joules ]

      Which in terms most people can relate to is about 3 Watt-hours, or about the same as a singe AA battery. Not very impressive.

    5. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, put a AA in a box and come back in 175 years, and try it out. Then we'll see how impressive that is.

    6. Re:Bullshit by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That assumes the bell had been drawing the same current that entire time. The bell used to ring, meaning it was drawing much more current then.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    7. Re:Bullshit by jimmydevice · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I expect you are correct. Put the bell in a Faraday cage and see if it stops twitching. The question is, is the signal being switched, electrostatic, magnetic?

    8. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > 1 nanoamp is so tiny that it may be being recharged from the environment somehow.

      At that rate it doesn't need any recharging. A continuous 1 nanoamp draw (it doesn't make sense to say it draws 1 nanoamp per oscillation because amperage is a rate not a quantity) would discharge a small 1 Amp-Hour battery over one billon hours, or 114,000 years. The fact that it hasn't discharged through interal leakage is pretty impressive though.

    9. Re:Bullshit by jimmydevice · · Score: 1

      How the hell do you generate 2KV?

    10. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As a grade school kid, I always wanted to buy 100 X 9V batteries and turn them into a 900V supply, then shock the asshole shit out of the creeps I hated.
      Didn't, Still regretting it.
      But I did shock the shit out of my brothers, And later, so they did to me with ignition coils.

    11. Re:Bullshit by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's being switched. The clapper itself is the switch. Find a picture on the Internet of the whole device, and you'll see that the clapper switches the current between the two batteries. TFA only shows the lower portion. You can't even see the "piles".

    12. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      9V batteries have more than enough current available to stop someone's heart if put in series. If you have 400-1000V DC worth that's more than enough to kill someone. Be glad that a little knowledge didn't get someone killed.

    13. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10KV can be done by getting up from a plastic chair too many times with a synthetic shirt on.

    14. Re:Bullshit by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I seem to recall that it can take as little as 15mV to stop someone's heart - assuming a good connection and bad luck.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    15. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please tell me you didn't actually think this would have enough voltage left to keep ringing the bell? You knew at some point the voltage would drop low enough to reduce the energy in the clapper to the point where you can't hear it. If not, please read up about how exponential decay works. Also about the logarithmic nature of human hearing if necessary.

      Anyway, my main point is that the battery voltage will decay exponentially. e^(-175*t) slowly approaches zero, but it'll never quite get there, so this thing will "move" forever... at least until the coefficient of static friction eventually makes it impossible for the voltage to impart enough energy to move the clapper.

      p.s. I agree with sibling that it's probably being recharged by the environment. My guess is that static electricity on the bell itself may be providing the delta-V to recharge the battery.

    16. Re:Bullshit by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then we'll see how impressive that is.

      Not nearly as much as his coming back...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    17. Re:Bullshit by __aagigi1968 · · Score: 0

      those who arrange and design shrubberies in these stressful times are the lucky ones, think of us poor buggers who have to install and maintain said shrubberies, those bloody knights always had an excuse in "the good old days" now, they start steaming if you even let them glimpse anything resembling a bill.

    18. Re:Bullshit by Adriax · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, we americans would never keep under performing, outdated electrical appliances around for the historic factor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
      And we have no attachment whatsoever to historical figures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
    19. Re:Bullshit by riverat1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      1 nanosecond..., honestly, that's typically British. In the US that battery would have been trashed already. The Brits are way too much attached to these long lasting historical figures. And royalty is another example.

      Well, there is a light bulb in Livermore, CA that's been burning for 114 years. That hasn't been continuous as there have been some power outages and it's been moved a few times but the Livermore fire department seems pretty attached to it.

    20. Re:Bullshit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Informative

      I do believe that you're thinking of "mA", not "mV". 15 mV is even less than the trigger voltage of an ordinary nerve cell. A few mA, through the right nerves of the heart at the right moment, can _decouple_ the heart's normal pulsing rhythm, causing fibrillation. It's well worth a bit of research into how "defibrillators" work: I'm afraid I'm old enough that I have some acquaintances with implanted pacemakers to control just that sort of problem.

    21. Re:Bullshit by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      From the other FA - they've muffled the sound: "It is seen but not heard as the ringing is muffled, in the ground floor display cabinet near the main entrance of the Clarendon Laboratory." So, not BS.

    22. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 1

      A regular AA can't do this. But it wouldn't be particularly hard to design a battery that could provide such a tiny current for a long time. It's just that there's very little practical applications for such very low currents.

    23. Re:Bullshit by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It's an electrostatic bell, so around 1KV should be enough to run such a small one. I imagine the battery has, say, 500 discs at 2V each, all in series.

    24. Re:Bullshit by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      It's part of a bunch of long-running experiments like the Queensland pitch drop experiment (running since 1930) and the Beverley Clock (running since 1864, although it was stopped briefly to move it and for cleaning). I particularly like the Beverley Clock (the Pitch Drop is pretty boring), a clock that's been running for over 150 years without being wound. You can buy your own (modern) equivalents of this clock if you have plenty of money (note that they don't list a price, you're requested to contact their concierge, typical prices are five to six figures, although you can find them at below RRP sometimes).

    25. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably not a whole lot more. Batteries have a reasonably constant voltage during most of their discharge cycle.

    26. Re:Bullshit by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 3, Funny

      9V batteries have more than enough current available to stop someone's heart if put in series.

      You can stop someone's heart with a standard 1.5V dry cell, you just need to apply it directly to the heart. Stick a bayonet in through the ribs and into the heart, hook a battery to it, and just like magic the heart will stop.

    27. Re:Bullshit by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      Ok, but its light is not 1 nanolux, is it? This is the 1 nanoamp, that's ridiculous to keep that thing alive while it's clearly dead.

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    28. Re:Bullshit by lgw · · Score: 2

      Well, put a AA in a box and come back in 175 years, and try it out. Then we'll see how impressive that is.

      Oh-ho, smart guy, see how may of those you'd sell!

      It is impressive though. Torpedoes need a high-power battery that can be stored for many years and still be at 100% when needed. They used to cheat, though, and use a wet cell with the chemicals stored separately - mix everything together when it's time to load, and you're ready to go. No leakage unless there's actual leakage. I wonder what they do today - a dry cell with no leakage would be safer and easier.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    29. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Take an 8 pack of 1.5V dry cells, put them in a sock and beat someone with them. It doesn't matter who, since you're a sociopath.

    30. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Is English your second language?

      More xenophobic shit from brits.

    31. Re:Bullshit by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      It's the frequency of an alternating current supply that causes fibrillation, not the current or the voltage. Cardioversion ("shocking the heart") is a blast of DC that works by making all the cells of the heart contract at once, so that the standard recovery period after a contraction is long enough to prevent the aberrant conduction from being propagated.

    32. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 1

      Dry cells wouldn't be able to provide much instantaneous current.

    33. Re:Bullshit by Crashmarik · · Score: 2

      Yanno, the Germans, Norse and Saxons could all make the same complaints about English.

    34. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a terrible summary.

      The oscillation is due to electrostatic forces being transferred back and forth when the clapper hits the bells. As a result it *is* still striking. It is fairly quiet though. You can't hear it though because it's in a double-layered bell jar.

      Those forces mean it uses a high voltage but tiny amount of charge (the 1 nanoAmp). That's why the battery is still going - it's not a magic battery, it's just a very efficient bell.

    35. Re:Bullshit by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I was commenting more on the "In the US that battery would have been trashed already." comment than anything else.

    36. Re:Bullshit by Immerman · · Score: 1

      It's not impossible, but I *really* want to say I heard mV. Of course it's also possible that my source, now lost to the fog of time, were themselves mistaken. Your description certainly sounds about right otherwise.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    37. Re:Bullshit by colinwb · · Score: 1
      Also:

      The case is seen clearly in a photograph in the Wikipedia article, and once you know the bell(s) are inside a glass case you can clearly see the case in the photograph on the motherboard.vice.com page.

    38. Re:Bullshit by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I would not be surprised if a frequency component were also necessary, but clearly there will be some V/A threshold you have to cross before you do damage.

      Though really, a sufficiently sustained blast of DC would probably do the job as well - how long can the heart remain clenched before it won't start beating again? If nothing else eventually you'll die of oxygen deprivation, heart and all.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    39. Re:Bullshit by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Why would they need that much instant current? The battery doesn't power the torpedo through the water, it just runs the guidance system.

      Population is provided by "Otto fuel II" which is a hot expanding gas that provides an average of 7 minutes of run time, but at 55+ kts it is enough.

    40. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 nanoamp is so tiny that it may be being recharged from the environment somehow.

      Microcontrollers for embedded devices are approaching that current consumption for standby modes.
      It makes the expression embedded a bit useless for microcontrollers since it is applied both to the single chip solutions in a mm sized package that runs a decade on a coin cell and to full blown computers like the raspberry that couldn't last a week on a battery the size of your fist.
      Regardless, a battery that delivers closer to a hundred nA for a hundred years would be neat for fire alarms or similar installations that are supposed to never be used more than once but still has to stay alive and check the environment.

    41. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 1

      I'm not an expert on torpedoes, but parent claimed that Torpedoes need a high-power battery. Given that torpedoes only operate for a short time, I drew the conclusion that they must provide a high current.

    42. Re: Bullshit by WoLpH · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Even without the power a bayonet will do that to you

    43. Re:Bullshit by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      The Mk-48 ADCAP torpedo does require prep time, they aren't generally kept in a "ready to fire" situation all the time.

      I would imagine one simple solution would be a capacitor, since the battery has to be good in storage for long periods of time, but when actually needed, only has to work for between 10 minutes an hour. So the torpedo has some spin up time while the battery charges the capacitor, however it is also possible to get its initial charge from the launching vessel (while in the tube), they are wire-guided after all so in the tube, they are "plugged in" to the ship.

      Why an hour of battery when the run time of the motor is 7 minutes? Because in a combat situation, the captain may well order torpedoes loaded and they may sit in the tubes ready to go, so the batteries are running. It is possible that if they drain the tubes and pull them out, the batteries have to be replaced.

      These are all minor considerations, considering that each Mk-48 ADCAP costs $3.5 million dollars each, they can (or should) be able to afford both the best batteries as well as spares and replacements.

      Also worth noting is that a torpedo is not a small weapon, the modern versions being over 19 feet long.

    44. Re:Bullshit by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's the frequency of an alternating current supply that causes fibrillation, not the current or the voltage.

      The current or the voltage is what causes the electricity to flow through the heart in the first place, it doesn't always happen even when someone touches something with both hands.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 1

      It is possible that if they drain the tubes and pull them out, the batteries have to be replaced.

      If that's true, then we are talking about big currents (multiple Amps). A capacitor would not have enough capacity for a reasonable size. Batteries are much better.

    46. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      244 x 9V batteries and way too much spare time. No shocking of people, of course.

    47. Re:Bullshit by mysidia · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I remember someone making a video about having some fun with a few hundred 9v batteries in series resulting in ~2000 vDC.

    48. Re:Bullshit by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      Batteries have a reasonably constant voltage during most of their discharge cycle.

      Different types differ, and you don't know what type of battery this one is.

    49. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's in a sealed unit to stop oxidization, not very.

    50. Re:Bullshit by epyx · · Score: 0

      If you're stabbing someone in the heart, isn't the shock a little bit redundant?

    51. Re:Bullshit by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I can stop your heart with 2microvolts if it's attached to a 9mm slug.

      To keep the oscillator going, a nanoamp is one measure, but voltage pushes that current through the coil to make it move. Voltage, difference in potential, is unlikely to come from ambient sources, so the there's still a little bit of a kick left in the battery, not the surrounding area.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    52. Re:Bullshit by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Funny

      Make a deep cut in each thumb. Touch the bleeding thumbs to the terminals of a 9 volt battery. Report the results to us. If you haven't yet fibrillated, snap two batteries together in series and touch the contacts again. Keep adding a battery and reporting back.

    53. Re: Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh

    54. Re:Bullshit by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You probably could stop someone's heart with 15 mV. But it would have to be applied directly to the heart, and at just the right time.

      For external application (i.e. without the open heart surgery) it's going to take rather more than that. You generally need a current of around 100 mA through the heart to stop it. If you're not standing in a puddle of salt water or gripping a water pipe, it's going to take quite a bit more voltage to achieve that.

      110 V household current can kill, if you manage to get a good connection hand to hand. I think the lowest voltages observed to kill someone were around 40 V, but that requires some fairly exceptional circumstances.

    55. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bellâ(TM)s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy.

      That statement has no meaning. Current is not energy. The battery does not pull current. The battery provides current and the bell (load) pulls current.

    56. Re:Bullshit by jcdr · · Score: 1

      Anyway, my main point is that the battery voltage will decay exponentially.

      No. A battery voltage absolutely don't follow the law of a capacitor voltage. On a battery, the voltage drop no so much as long as the chemical process is still producing charges. Depending on the chemistry of the battery, some components might change over time, over temperature, over chemical contamination, or current flow, and this result on a drop of voltage from the nominal one. Anodes stability in for example a critical component in many battery chemistry.

      Take time to read datasheet of some batteries and play attention to there voltage discharge curve.

    57. Re:Bullshit by rgbatduke · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, you can kill yourself with a single 9 V battery -- or the 12 V battery of your car. One man did:

      http://darwinawards.com/darwin...

      The computation goes as follows. The issue, as several people have pointed out, is that it is current across the heart that causes defibrillation (basically interrupting the heart's natural rhythm so that it pulses chaotically), not a matter of cooking the person (which will also work, BTW, but isn't the most common cause of electrical shock deaths). It isn't even the case that more current is always worse -- there appears to be a range of currents that are more toxic than others. A brief explanation of this is here:

      https://www.physics.ohio-state...

      The maximally toxic range of currents across the thorax is empirically 0.1 to 0.2 amps. Below that it isn't enough to defibrillate, above that the heart muscle clamps all the way which means that when the current is removed it is actually more likely that it can with help or will on its own restore a normal rhythm.

      The internal resistance of the human body once you introduce probes through the comparatively insulating skin is around 100 ohms. A 9V battery across ~100 ohms makes a thoracic current of roughly 0.1 amp, right at the start of the maximally fatal range. The Darwin above was given because an idiot didn't believe this and stuck probes through his skin to "prove" that it wasn't so.

      Personally I've experienced shocks from 12 V car batteries when screwing around with them on rainy nights with salt water on my hands. That's another good way of reducing skin resistance. I didn't take the hit across the torso, but it was every bit as painful as a 110V shock through dry skin -- more so, actually -- and caused my muscles to contract like lightning.

      None of this is actually news -- it has been known as long as there has been electricity, because people have been killing themselves accidentally with electricity just that long. My scout leader 50 years ago worked for GE (as an inventor, actually -- one of the people who invented the photodiode controlled light). He taught me that long ago to ground one finger and then brush another finger of the same hand against any possible hot wire so that you find out with a jolt across your hand, not through your torso. Hand to foot, hand to hand, not so good. People used to kill themselves all the time touching hot electrical switches while standing in wet feet on bathroom floors before ground fault circuits were invented and mandated by code.

      None of which has much to do with TFA, but it is good to know if you work at all with electricity. Physicists need to know it just to be able to teach it to their students so THEY don't kill themselves accidentally one day. It isn't the voltage that kills you, it's the current, and it doesn't take much current to do the job (or much voltage to create a fatal current).

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    58. Re:Bullshit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > You probably could stop someone's heart with 15 mV.

      Applied where, and when? Even the 'action potential' of a nerve involves a roughly 25 mV change to trigger the nerve to fire. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... ) Thinking about this, I realize that I was only thinking about pulses, not DC. I'm not sure if you could ruin nerves or disable them with an extended 1 mV DC, or 15 mV DC at the right place.

      As near as I can tell from my limited work with machine room safety, and limited work with the results of machine room accidents and personal research, the results of electrical damage can be very confusing. Getting the current past human skin is critical to doing real damage: skin typically has about 1 MOhm impedance measured with a household voltmeter. But the paths it will take can become very strange, very quickly, depending on sweat, penetration of skin, and many other factors.

      If I wished to be certain of killing someone with household voltage, personally, I'd go for the head. Where to put the electrodes gets very macabre, very quickly.

    59. Re:Bullshit by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      >Croft says that the battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bell’s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy

      That isn't a unit of energy. It tells you nothing about the energy consumed.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    60. Re:Bullshit by itzly · · Score: 1

      All batteries work that way, and yes, we have a pretty good idea what kind of battery this is.

    61. Re:Bullshit by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Action potentials are a bit funny. They're not actually movements of electrons down a wire like we're used to thinking about, but rather propagating waves of changes in the way cellular pumps move heavy ions through the cell membrane. Action potentials provide essentially no long-distance current, for example.

      If you applied 15 mV across the SA node (the heart's built in pacemaker) at just the right time in the cardiac sequence you might be able to interfere enough to stop the organized contraction. There's a lab at my university that's been looking at analyzing chaotic heart contractions in order to use very small, very well-timed pacemaker signals, to correct them.

      You would absolutely have to do it internally though ("applied directly to the heart"). The human body is basically a bag of salt water, which conducts quite well (about 300 Ohm from head to toe IIRC) surrounded by skin, which is a pretty good insulator. So if you want to electrocute someone, stab the electrodes in first.

    62. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Here is another helpful tidbit: If you are going to test that hot wire with your flesh, use the back side of your hand/finger not the inside. You don't want your muscles to contract and close your hand around the hot wire. Added bonus because there are fewer nerves on the backside, so it won't hurt as much.

    63. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accidental Cassimir tap between the layers?

    64. Re: Bullshit by jetole · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm won't but I thought putting the batteries in series won't increase the electrical output but will make them last longer. Perhaps I misunderstand series. I summer you mean connecting the cathode of one battery to the anode of another battery. Can anyone verify if that's what in series means and, if so, am I right that it means it won't increase the output power. I vaguely seem to recall that a watch battery can stop a elephants heart if you have enough of them and you connect all anodes to anodes and all cathodes to cathodes but I'm not an electrician.

    65. Re:Bullshit by camperdave · · Score: 2

      I've watched Doctor Who. I'm not buying anything called ATMOS.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    66. Re:Bullshit by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 1

      It's dead all right, it just hasn't stopped moving yet!

      ummm. waitttttt...

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    67. Re:Bullshit by PPH · · Score: 1

      Won't someone please answer that fucking phone?!

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    68. Re: Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lower your rage netnerd

    69. Re: Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The voltage of a battery is the difference between two sides of the battery (more or less). So putting them in series, yes - anode to cathode, will make them seem like a single logical battery with more cells, with a larger voltage - or difference. Putting them in parallel won't add the voltages, but you will get more current because the power draw is spread across all the batteries. Does that make sense?

    70. Re:Bullshit by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      Voltage per pair of discs is around 0.8V for silver-MnO2. So to get 2kV, you'd need around 2500 disc pairs.

      I have a War Department Geiger counter that I'm trying to get back into commission ; it needs a 120V DC power supply that fits into a 5 x 5 x 10cm cavity. The original achieved this by stacking together 100-odd 1.5V Leclanche cells into a carrier. But they stopped being manufactured around 1971.

      I'm going to have to be creative.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    71. Re:Bullshit by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      It's just that there's very little practical applications for such very low currents.

      The Wikipedia article on Zamboni piles cites image intensifier tubes as being a past application. back in the days when you used photomultiplier tubes to amplify the electrons from each re-focussing of the image. Low current, high voltage.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    72. Re:Bullshit by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      When a oscillating body in air is given a nudge at resonance, the energy provided the bell's pendulum is only that which was lost with a swing against air pressure. The dry battery can last forever, particularly if fresh air is in contact with some material that provides oxygen or other gas to replenish the battery.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    73. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Since it looks like it stops completely after each swing, resonance isn't going to help you, and the energy needed for each swing has to be supplied every time.

      The dry battery can last forever, particularly if fresh air is in contact with some material that provides oxygen or other gas to replenish the battery.

      The Zamboni dry cell, like other batteries, slowly deteriorates the metal. Adding air won't help. It just lasts a long time because the amount of energy extracted is small, even cumulatively over a long time. Plus the piles, like most dry piles, are sealed in sulfur.

    74. Re:Bullshit by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      We have known how to produce incandescent bulbs that will last 100 years for a long time. You just don't want them because they are horribly inefficient sources of light. You could even do it with off the shelf equipment. Take a rough service light bulb and run it from the output of a 12V filament transformer. It will last for many many years. It will also produce very little light.

    75. Re:Bullshit by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I would not be surprised if a frequency component were also necessary, but clearly there will be some V/A threshold you have to cross before you do damage.

      Basically what you need to do is breach the dielectric that separates your blood from the outside world - your blood is a rather excellent conductor of electricity thanks to all the ions dissolved in it. however, the insulator, your skin, has a conductance that varies depending on its condition - if it's wet, it conducts a lot better than if it's dry (by several orders of magnitude - easily dropping from the low megaohms to kiloohms). Once the current gets past your skin, it's really a straight shot to your heart which requires very little voltage.

      It's why you usually don't get shocked by a 9V battery as the current doesn't get through the skin, but wet skin and you feel the tingle as it stimulates the nerves.

    76. Re:Bullshit by Zeroko · · Score: 1

      I once got a rather disconcerting shock (painful tingling) from a single 9V battery while attempting to disconnect it from a circuit. I must have had something conductive on my hands. It was similar to the feeling of accidentally touching both prongs of a partially-inserted 120V plug. On the other hand, I got a much worse shock from a plastic slide...it was so bad that I fell down the slide & could not move for a bit afterward. (I did go out of my way to poke a wet stick into a crack & reach the metal pipe holding it up, though.)

  3. Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually the janitor changes it once a week when he cleans the room.

    1. Re:Oops by theVarangian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the janitor changes it once a week when he cleans the room.

      Hehe.. maybe he is. The municipal power company in Reykjavik, Iceland built a Focault pendulum in their HQ as a showpiece. Local urban legend has it that after it was first installed the thing would stop swinging at seemingly random intervals which caused the artist and the physicist who designed it a lot of head scratching. No amount of calculations, physics theory and modelling could explain these mysterious disruptions in the predicted workings of the pendulum so finally they set up a camera to observe the thing. The footage showed the pendulum swinging away for hours and hours until suddenly a member of the cleaning staff walked into the frame, stopped, looked at the pendulum, reached out, stopped it with his hand and then walked out of the frame. Mystery solved... dunno if the story is true but it made me laugh.

    2. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Focault pendulums are heavy. It would take extreme effort to stop one with your hands.

    3. Re:Oops by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      There are similar stories in IT about a mysterious inexplicable server outage occuring at the same time each day, after office hours, that continued even after reformatting it to eliminate any software issue. When an administrator tried staying after closing time to watch it, he found a cleaner unplugging the mysterious humming box to plug the floor buffer in.

    4. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Classic urban legend: 'device X malfunctions for unknown reason, after investigation, simple reason Y was found.'. X is often expected to last indefinitely if not disturbed, Y is often a disturbance by human ignorance.

      Most heard version is X = hospital's intensive care device needed for live support, Y = cleaning personnel using power connection for cleaning
      http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/cleaner.asp

    5. Re:Oops by Xolotl · · Score: 2

      I suppose you've only got the word of a Slashdot contributor, but I personally experienced one like this twice (at two locations), the only difference being the server wasn't being unplugged, but a high-current device was being mistakenly plugged into the same circuit and tripping a surge protector. In was case it was indeed after hours and it was indeed a floor buffer (the server was SUN Sparc). (The other case was much earlier and involved a kettle in the room next door and incorrect wiring.)

    6. Re:Oops by msobkow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I hate to tell you this, but most people who've worked support in manufacturing and office environments have similar stories. I spent close to two months getting paged by Northern Telecom in Bramalea, ON for a manufacturing system failure on the shop floor at 2-3 AM most days per week. It was only by deciding to hang out for an entire night watching the area that I found out it was being caused by a cleaning lady unplugging the network bridge to plug in her radio while cleaning the area.

      So seeing as I have one of those stories myself, I find them a lot easier to believe than most of you kids do.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    7. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Server plugged into a switched outlet seen years ago here. Cleaning crew turned out the lights and killed the server every night for a week. Fixed in 5 minutes.

    8. Re:Oops by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      my wife keeps unplugging various "Don't turn that shit off" devices around the house to use the vacuum cleaner. There are sockets on every landing specified for the vacuum cleaner - they have fucking stickers over them that say "Power appliances". THIS WEEK ALONE I've had to deal with the TiVo, the main router, the cabinet cluster, and the CCTV systems all being hot-unplugged by her so she doesn't have to deal with cables trailing across the landings for FIVE MINUTES.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    9. Re:Oops by msobkow · · Score: 0

      Takes a big man to call someone a liar over the internet with an anonymous user post, asswipe. You wouldn't have the BALLS to do that to my face.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    10. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is that some urban legends are in reality not legends as are based in actual facts, sometimes the real origin is forgotten or are things of the past that are no longer valid but that originally where true.

      And where I work we suffered a cleaning crew unplugging a machine that had to be always on, nothing critical but really annoying (it was a temporary substitute,and it didn't have received the standard cleaning procedure and norms that we use).

    11. Re:Oops by msobkow · · Score: 1

      *sympathy* You can't even call her up to the union like we did the cleaning lady... *LOL*

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    12. Re:Oops by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      I have a little cry to myself every time because it shortens the life of the hardware, and right now I can't afford to replace ANY of it.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    13. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't know how this got modded up. Focault pendulums are made heavy so they have more momentum and take longer to slow down, but the vast majority of them, especially the one in the image above, are easy to stop with your hands. Especially when there are pins to setup, a lot of places will just stop it, set up the pins, and start it swinging again. I've volunteered at least three different museums where that is standard practice, and have set up temporary pendulums in physics departments before. At some point you have to give it a push to keep it going anyway, as powered pendulums tend to be rarer, and the few I've seen around are often quite small to make them easier to make and take up less space.

    14. Re:Oops by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      And _this_ is why I use things like these, wehre possible, in machine rooms and office spaces.

                                http://www.homedepot.com/b/Ele...

      It protects the power plugs from being jarred and dislodged by someone poking around the back of an ill-managed server cabinet, and it can be labeled to indicate which machines or rack it currently powers. It can even be marked with the relevant fuse from the wiring closet.

                           

    15. Re:Oops by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Piss your wife off too many times and you won't have to worry about your electronics shortening anything.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Neckbeard fight!

      Let the slapping begin!

    17. Re:Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regular deaths of people on life support: a cleaning person plugging in the life supports wall socket to do the vacuming.

    18. Re:Oops by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      My favorite was the coworker that set up a UPS on a server and left for the day. I got a call an hour later saying the server had stopped responding. It turns out that the coworker plugged the UPS INTO ITSELF, and left it running. From that day on his nickname was 'loopback'.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    19. Re:Oops by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Maybe she's trying to tell you to buy her a cordless vacuum.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  4. Not a lot of power. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At the current estimated power draw, thats only (1 nanoampere) * 175 years = 0.00153401723 ampere hours. It's a long time: impressive durability, but not really amazing capacity. Laptop batteries are often ~1000 times that. I don't know the voltage here, so I can't do energy comparisons, just total amp hours.

    1. Re:Not a lot of power. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      The durability is impressive. It's not like cleanroom fabrication and high-purity metallurgy were exactly top of the line in 1840, so I would have naively guessed that some mixture of corrosion and non-current-generating side reactions among impurities or airborne contaminants would have trashed it in less than a century, possibly a lot less, depending on the exact arrangement of the battery, even if the energy density is totally plausible in physics-experiment-land.

    2. Re:Not a lot of power. by sjames · · Score: 1

      I don't know the actual voltage but dry piles of that type generally generate thousands of volts. It's probably a good thing the current is so weak! Effectively, it's a source of static electricity.

    3. Re:Not a lot of power. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      0.0015 ampere hours = 1.5mAh. A smallish phone battery such as the one found in an iPhone 6 is 1800mAh, with previous generations being about 1500mAh, so it's about 1000x less than that. A high end phone is typically around 3000mAh.

      Laptops tend to be in the 5,000mAh range and upwards.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  5. What It Is Made Of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Researchers would love to know what the battery is made of [...] It's made of what's called a "dry pile," [...] They use alternating discs of silver, zinc, sulfur, and other materials to generate low currents of electricity.

    Well.. that answers that question.

    1. Re:What It Is Made Of by plover · · Score: 0

      No... it's made of witchcraft!

      --
      John
    2. Re:What It Is Made Of by JustOK · · Score: 0

      no, wattcraft

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:What It Is Made Of by hawguy · · Score: 1

      Researchers would love to know what the battery is made of [...] It's made of what's called a "dry pile," [...] They use alternating discs of silver, zinc, sulfur, and other materials to generate low currents of electricity.

      Well.. that answers that question.

      Yeah, just gotta get me some of them other materials and I can build one of my own! Maybe Amazon sells them.

    4. Re: What It Is Made Of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whocraft!

    5. Re:What It Is Made Of by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, just don't use "tar". :-)

    6. Re: What It Is Made Of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minecraft?

    7. Re: What It Is Made Of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yourcraft?

  6. The Karpen Pile by psergiu · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

    The Karpen Pile, currently on display at the Dimitrie Leonida National Technical Museum in Bucharest, Romania, still gives out 1V after 60 years.

    This one has a glass enclosure so it can be studied.

    --
    1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
  7. Interstellar missions... by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    At the current estimated power draw, thats only (1 nanoampere) * 175 years = 0.00153401723 ampere hours. It's a long time: impressive durability, but not really amazing capacity. Laptop batteries are often ~1000 times that. I don't know the voltage here, so I can't do energy comparisons, just total amp hours.

    Deep space exploration could benefit from that kind of durability. It's lasted longer than most governments...

    1. Re:Interstellar missions... by rossdee · · Score: 0

      "Deep space exploration could benefit from that kind of durability."

      Deep space tends to be very cold, and chemical batteries don't do to well in those conditions.

      " It's lasted longer than most governments..."

      Windows XP has lasted longer than most governments, when you think about it.
      Democracies tend to change after a few election cycles, and in the last couple of decades has seen the departure of a number of dictators

    2. Re:Interstellar missions... by TWX · · Score: 0

      I don't think that even the most efficient and simple electric circuit would be able to do anything meaningful with that small an amount of power. Maybe a wakeup circuit to bring up a long-sleeping computer that is powered from another source, but it may make more sense to just use something nuclear that provides sustained higher current for a long time.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It somehow seems doubtful that the original current consumption would have been that low. Rather, I suspect that when it first started the bell audibly rang.

    4. Re:Interstellar missions... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Some applications can get away with the 'trickle charge the capacitor, wake up and work quickly once the threshold voltage is hit' approach(works nicely for solar data logging, as long as you don't need moment-by-moment results); but a nanoamp is likely to fall below the self discharge rate of any capacitor of reasonable capacity; and would sleep for a long time even with an idealized 100% efficient capacitor.

    5. Re:Interstellar missions... by sillybilly · · Score: 0

      Well the US Government started in 1776, so it's done fairly well so far, and I have these postal stamps that say USA Forever, aka forever stamps, if that's any kind of omen.

    6. Re:Interstellar missions... by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Deep space tends to be very cold

      This is misleading at best.

      Space in itself is a near vacuum, which (a) has no temperature of its own, and (b) is a wonderful insulator. Which is why a thermos uses vacuum for insulation.
      Objects in space can become very cold over long time spans, as heat slowly radiates away without being replenished at the same rate. But space itself doesn't cool them down.

      Voyager 1, which is the operative craft that's been in service the longest and receives the least amount of heat from the sun is, after most of the heaters have been turned off to conserve energy, running at around -80C temperatures. That's a veritable furnace compared to other older objects in space that have radiated away more heat over much longer time.

      Also, you say "chemical batteries". Well, yes, it is, but this is a dry battery. The composition doesn't change with colder temperatures, unlike wet batteries where liquids freeze. Dry batteries don't have that problem, which is why it is interesting.

    7. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (a) has no temperature of its own,

      But no vacuums are perfect, and are filled with things that do have temperatures. Even if you get far away from other sources of heat in our universe and where the gas is too rarefied to matter, the background photons have a temperature and you won't be able to radiate below 3 K. The lack of cooling has almost everything to do with your b point, that it is a good insulator, not the lack of temperature.

      Dry batteries don't have that problem, which is why it is interesting.

      Reactions still slow with temperature, and often in non-linear ways. There are plenty of reactions that become inefficient or non-existent at cold enough temperatures, with chemistry done at cryogenic temperatures being a whole subfield because it blocks reactions that normally dominate various situations.

    8. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Space may be a wonderful insulator, but the flip side to that is that there's nothing to reflect back your own heat. Radiative cooling can happen very quickly. This is why a desert can go from 100F to near freezing in a matter of hours when the Earth rotates and the desert is radiating heat out into space.

      There's a reason why a vacuum flask (aka thermos) is silvered--it reflects radiation. A vacuum flask is silvered on the _inside_ (including the vacuum-facing walls) as well as the outside, otherwise any contents warmer than ambient temperature would radiate their heat much faster through the flask walls.

    9. Re:Interstellar missions... by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why a desert can go from 100F to near freezing in a matter of hours when the Earth rotates and the desert is radiating heat out into space.

      Deserts are not vacuums. Deserts cool down at night mainly through air convection. High altitude air on the planet's night side is less buoyant, and is replaced by warmer air from lower altitudes, and this process repeats all the way down to the surface. Katabatic winds are often a result, which the California "sundowner" winds is a good example of.
      Needless to say, that isn't much of a concern for the microclimates of spacecraft.

    10. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Actually photons don't have a temperature as such. Sometimes you'll hear people talking about "300K light" - but it's not that the photons themselves have a temperature, but that they have an energy distribution approximating that of a black body radiator at 300K. Photons can impart energy when absorbed, which may rapidly thermalize, or they can carry away thermal energy, but they themselves don't obey the normal temperature laws. Heat only flows form higher temperature to lower temperature; however, a 3K object can radiate thermal energy as photons which will be absorbed by a 3000K object without problems - the net heat transfer is in the other direction only because the 3000K object is simultaneously radiating far more energy back at the 3K object.

      Consider what exactly heat means - it's the average kinetic ("vibrational") energy of the atoms in an object. On the atomic scale temperature = speed. The essence of heat transfer by conduction is that when two atoms at different speeds collide, the slower atom speeds up, while the faster atom slows down. (the opposite rarely happens because it require that the faster atom be "rear-ended" by the slower one - only possible in very specific "T-bone" collisions") For photons that doesn't happen - they are *always* traveling faster than the atom they hit (at exactly c), and can either speed up or slow down the atom based on the angle of impact.

      Now I'm curious... A question for someone better versed than I on the subject: Is is known what exactly the physical mechanism is by which kinetic energy causes photons to be emitted? The discussions I found all basically just said "it's a property of matter", which is great if you just want to characterize black-body radiation, but doesn't exactly quench my curiosity. I'm thinking it's probably related to the atomic impacts/oscillations within a sample, and that a single atom can't meaningfully be said to have a temperature as it is completely at rest within it's own reference frame.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:Interstellar missions... by riverat1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think that's true. On a cloudy but windy night in the desert it doesn't get nearly as cold as on a clear windless night all other things being equal. In fact when I searched for "Desert nighttime cooling" here is the first thing that came up. It basically says under clear low humidity conditions at night radiative cooling is by far the the largest reason for cooling.

    12. Re:Interstellar missions... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > (a) has no temperature of its own, and (b) is a wonderful insulator.

      Oh, my. I'm afraid that both these assumptions are overstated. The background temperature of the universe is only a few degrees Kelvin, but the "vacuum" in near Earth orbit is considerably warmer and more dense than the universe at large. It's also a very good insulator as you state, but when exposed to sun light it has to cope with roughly 2 Watts/square inch of solar radiation. Even left to itself, in the shadow of some astronomical body, it will continue to cool from 'black body radiation', even if it is white or reflective.

      The effects may be much more insulating than planetside environments, but these kinds of factors do affect space craft power supplies.

    13. Re:Interstellar missions... by itzly · · Score: 3, Funny

      Deserts cool down at night mainly through air convection

      So where are those supplies of near-freezing air around desert areas ?

    14. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 3

      That is true as far as it goes, but in a sufficiently large, flat desert you don't have much winds, and dry air has much lower specific heat, so it can't conduct heat away from surfaces nearly as fast as moist air. Nevertheless desert nights are usually much colder than you would expect.

      What's special about deserts in this regard is that same dry air also means the atmosphere is much more transparent to infrared than, so that far more of the thermal energy radiated towards the sky by the soil escapes from the Earth entirely, rather than being reflected back to the surface. It's basically the exact opposite of the "cloud blanket" effect where dense clouds that blow in near dusk can keep it from cooling off much overnight because the greatly elevated water levels in the clouds reflect much more of the radiated heat. (obviously the effect is much less pronounced in coastal deserts where the air is heavy with moisture even if it rarely rains.)

      We actually had a post here several weeks back of a new surface designed to harness the effect for cooling anywhere at any time of day: it was highly reflective over the high-energy solar spectrum, and tuned to radiate thermal energy at a specific frequency at which the atmosphere was almost perfectly transparent. More primitive technology such as coolth cells work like an inverse solar heater - heat is radiated away from a thermal reservoir overnight, and the cold water used to chill the air during the day.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    15. Re:Interstellar missions... by elfprince13 · · Score: 2

      Photons are "merely" localized changes in an electromagnetic field. Intuitively, "bumping" a charged particle will cause it to wiggle, causing just such changes to propagate. This is sort of a lie depending on your intuition for "bump", but it's close enough for a 3am /. post.

    16. Re:Interstellar missions... by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      Voyager 1, which is the operative craft that's been in service the longest and receives the least amount of heat from the sun is, after most of the heaters have been turned off to conserve energy, running at around -80C temperatures.

      Yes, but it has a nuclear power cell onboard. Given sufficent plutonium, it's pretty easy to keep warm.

    17. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Objects in space can become very cold over long time spans, as heat slowly radiates away without being replenished at the same rate. But space itself doesn't cool them down.

      >Voyager 1, which is the operative craft that's been in service the longest and receives the least amount of heat from the sun is, after most of the heaters have been turned off to conserve energy, running at around -80C temperatures.

      Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of your post, though I don't see why else you'd use "long time spans" with Voyager 1 as your example...

      I hope you're not suggesting Voyager 1's temperature is as warm as -80C after *decades* in space because it is surrounded by a good insulator and has retained its primordial heat. That's simply not true. Voyager 1 has three RTGs that in total produce thousands of watts of heat.

      Smallish objects, like those objects we earthlings launch, take hours, days, or weeks to lose most of their heat by radiation.

    18. Re:Interstellar missions... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Photons also have a temperature in the sense that it's the maximum temp you can raise a blackbody to (or maintain it at) no matter how many photons at that frequency you use (the blackbody curve is for an ideal gas, so the idea doesn't extend well to ionizing radiation).

      what exactly the physical mechanism is by which kinetic energy causes photons to be emitted

      At the level I understand it: knock two molecules together, and sometimes you get a electron elevated to a higher energy state instead of an elastic collision. The difference between that energy state and the ground state is the energy of the photon emitted, and thus it's color.

      But that model is really for gasses - get hot enough and the electrons take their time returning to a ground state, or start flying off, and the rules change - the phase transition to plasma - and the kinetic energy of the nuclei starts to fade as the dominant heat energy. Hot enough and you have a sea of free electrons constantly exchanging energy via photons (which don't get very far at the density required for such temperatures). Those conditions are far, far better insulator than empty space, but at the boundary these very high energy photons simply escape: a very different heat-to-light mechanism than in a gas (and simpler than "normal" plasma, which I don't understand at all).

      Empty space is transparent, which is another way of saying it provides no insulation at all for radiative heat. At the center of the Sun it's so opaque that no English word can really do it justice, but it takes millions of years for the heat at the center of the Sun to reach a layer where convection is meaningful.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    19. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Ah, of course - where a car frame might crumple on impact to dissipate energy, an atom's electron cloud can only bump one or more electrons to a higher energy state. Makes sense, thanks.

      I have my doubts about the "maximum temperature" thing though - The black body peak at 310K (body temperature) is ~9350nm. If I blast you with a billion gigawatt 9350nm laser, it seems very unlikely that you would somehow become a perfect mirror to avoid heating up further. Perhaps there's n additional qualifier? Maybe the source has to be a blackbody radiator as well?

      Also, I think you're off by an order of magnitude on the solar energy transfer - Wikipedia lists a photon travel time through the solar radiative zone (core to 0.75 solar radii, where convection starts kicking in) 170,000 years. And this page on NASA's website says estimates vary between between 10,000 and 170,000 years, and that the persistence much larger estimates are due to publishers repeating early poor-quality estimates of something generally not considered important. Still pretty mind-boggling though - I would have guessed months, maybe years.
      http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/20...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    20. Re:Interstellar missions... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Without doing the research, I'd say a significant factor in desert cooling speed is the low heat retention and transfer characteristics of desert sand. Sand is low density, low heat capacity, and in the absence of moisture simply doesn't retain much energy, nor does it conduct much energy to very far below the surface, so as soon as the heat source is gone, the sand quickly cools. Many desert surface are relatively reflective, which further reduces heat absorption.

      With the absence of significant surface heat radiation, then all you have is the air, generally dry and therefore low heat capacity itself, to retain the heat. Add the inevitable convection and you have rapid cooling. A big, moist forest would absorb and hold a lot of heat, and interfere with convection.

    21. Re:Interstellar missions... by ihtoit · · Score: 1

      yes, it's the result of either de-excitation of electrons in a matrix or the decay of electrons at the zero ground state.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    22. Re:Interstellar missions... by jbengt · · Score: 1

      Consider what exactly heat means - it's the average kinetic ("vibrational") energy of the atoms in an object.

      Technically, heat is only the energy moving as a result of a temperature difference. The average (translational) kinetic energy is proportional to the temperature. The kinetic energy of molecular motions is the internal energy.

    23. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Actually photons don't have a temperature as such...but they themselves don't obey the normal temperature laws.

      Too bad you already got modded up, because this comes up on Slashdot from time to time, and you've got it completely wrong. Photons follow thermodynamics just fine. A distribution of photons will reach thermal equilibrium with other objects consistently, following the zeroth law of thermodynamics which is the basis of defining temperature. They have a well defined temperature when thermalized (but there can be non-thermal distributions, just as there can be non-thermal distributions of matter). The first, second, and third laws are also all followed.

      Calculating the equilibrium distribution and temperature for a photon gas is a homework problem you would do in the first week or two of a stat mech course. This has been established for a 100 years now. Beyond that, you can use photons as part of various heat engines, etc., which again shows up as homework problems because it is impractical and space inefficient for most things in real life.

      Consider what exactly heat means - it's the average kinetic ("vibrational") energy... For photons that doesn't happen - they are *always* traveling faster than the atom they hit (at exactly c), and can either speed up or slow down the atom based on the angle of impact.

      Photons have an energy distribution, and that is all that is needed. Temperature is not specific to kinetic energy, and there are other systems where temperature is related to excitation energy of atoms or photon energy, or magnetic energy of spin alignment, etc. The laws of thermodynamics are very general, and can apply to any situation where you can get a partition function relationship between energy and probability of states.

      A question for someone better versed than I on the subject: Is is known what exactly the physical mechanism is by which kinetic energy causes photons to be emitted? T

      Any time a charged particle accelerates, not just move, it emits light. This works even for things that for dipoles or multipoles that have relative movement even when their total charge is neutral. Line emission of atoms can factor into it, but their energy is governed then by the same distributions effects that cause blackbody radiation, and you get blurring together of the lines and just photons from things shaking around, depending on how close it is to an ideal blackbody and if there are any non-thermal sources of energy.

    24. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I blast you with a billion gigawatt 9350nm laser, it seems very unlikely that you would somehow become a perfect mirror to avoid heating up further.

      A giant laser emitting light in a specific wavelength is producing a non-equilibrium source of photons. Things not in thermal equilibrium will cause transfer of heat, and energy will move around until equilibrium is found again (if only thermal processes are involved).

      Maybe the source has to be a blackbody radiator as well?

      A blackbody radiator emits a specific amount of power per surface area, so the only way to get GW at 310 K is to get a body so large that the emitted light is too spread out to heat up a person. And it works out such that no combination of lenses and mirrors can focus that blackbody light down from the original source and heat something hotter. And in relation to what is said above, the blackbody emits a thermal distribution of photons.

    25. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In theory, Windows XP could last practically forever, provided that nobody destroys all existing copies of it.

    26. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Photons also have a temperature in the sense that it's the maximum temp you can raise a blackbody to (or maintain it at) no matter how many photons at that frequency you use (the blackbody curve is for an ideal gas, so the idea doesn't extend well to ionizing radiation).

      Which happens to coincide with the average energy of the photons, in a certain Planck distribution, just like temperature of every day objects is the average energy in a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution.

      At the level I understand it: knock two molecules together, and sometimes you get a electron elevated to a higher energy state instead of an elastic collision.

      Even at temperatures way too cold to excite any lines in a molecule or atom, you still get black body radiation, as things move and shake around and emit radiation from accelerating charges. When you get to the point that you can't excite lines and all charge particles are very closely bound, you're in the realm of quantum mechanics anyway, and things will switch from Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics to Bose or Fermi statistics, and processes involved will depend a lot on the system.

      (which don't get very far at the density required for such temperatures).

      There is no density requirement for temperature. Laboratory plasmas can exceed the temperature of the center of the Sun in small setups because they due so with a less dense plasma. Plasmas in deep space can have temperatures in millions to hundreds of millions Kelvin (e.g. hot intergalactic medium). The opacity of the center of the sun comes mainly from the density of free electrons, since the total density is about 150 times that of water, and electromagnetic waves (even in the classical, non-photon sense) will exponentially decay at frequencies up into the high UV range at those densities, even if the plasma is rather cold.

      Those conditions are far, far better insulator than empty space,

      No, the thermal conductivity of high temperature, dense plasma is very, very high. Just because photons don't get far does not mean that heat is slow, as particles are still moving around very much. The thermal conductivity is several orders of magnitude higher than that of diamond. However, the density factors into the thermal diffusivity, as it takes a while for that heat to warm up stuff so that it can propagate. Even then, it is relatively large, and it is the size of the Sun that comes into play. Timescales of hundreds of thousands of years for thermal timescales is actually kind of short compared to the time scale of just 100 km of rock without convection/mixing.

    27. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Why are you so opposed to the idea of radiant cooling? Radiation is one of the "big four" methods of heat loss - that's the entire idea behind mylar emergency blankets (well, okay, used well they they also slow convection and evaporation - but any large trash bag will do that even more effectively) . And in a desert the sky is far more transparent.

      You do realize that, Hollywood stereotypes aside, desert != sand, right? Most of them are even fairly green, though not nearly as vibrantly so as elsewhere. There *is* less moisture in the soil, and the resulting lower heat capacity and conduction may be a contributing factor, but trust me (or research the topic yourself) - radiant heat loss is much higher to a desert sky than a "normal" one. It's basically the same physics as global warming: Water is a potent greenhouse gas: less atmospheric water = less greenhouse effect = faster radiant cooling. I even gave you examples of the opposite effect with clouds - something that you yourself have been routinely exposed to, if you have bothered to pay attention.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    28. Re:Interstellar missions... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Dry batteries don't work well in the cold because chemical reactions slow down the colder it gets. Wet batteries don't *survive* the cold because things freeze. I say this both as someone whose camera batteries often needed to be hand warmed, and as someone who's had to change a car battery at -40 because it discharged, froze and cracked it's case.

    29. Re:Interstellar missions... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      The previous posters are correct - the clear, low humidity air over deserts is more transparent to infrared light and radiative loss is the major reason for fast cooling at night. I've spent the night out in the Sahara. When the air cools off and you dig into the sand you realize that not only is the sand a decent insulator, just below the surface it's also much warmer than the air.

    30. Re:Interstellar missions... by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      No contradictions there. An insulator is a barrier to conductive and convective heat transfer, but as long as it's transparent to photons, radiative heat doesn't even notice it. Spacecraft instruments that need low temperatures have steered radiators that are kept pointed at dark space.

    31. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Exactly. That paragraph was responding specifically to the claim:

      >Photons also have a temperature in the sense that it's the maximum temp you can raise a blackbody to (or maintain it at) no matter how many photons at that frequency you use

      Which appears nonsensical, as demonstrated by my ridiculous scenario. If the statement is true in some context, then there are almost certainly major additional assumptions that have gone unstated. That the radiant source is itself a blackbody seems like a likely candidate.

      I question the your "mirrors and lenses" non-exception as well. As you say, and I'm willing to believe, a blackbody emits a specific amount of power/unit area. If I place an old, cold, body-temperature star at the focus of a giant parabolic reflector I can focus the entire radiant energy from billions of square miles of surface into a single column of light. Place a single person at the focus of a second reflector facing directly into that column, and all that radiation can be focused on them. Are you really going to tell me they won't warm up?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    32. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I'll have to think about that, maybe even do a little research. Any suggestions on a good, concise starting point/overview? (Trying to absorb equation-based explanations when I'm not already familiar with the terms? Not my idea of a good time.)

      From the commonly understood perspective of photons interacting with matter though, is it relevant? My understanding is that if a bunch of photons are absorbed by a sample, the sample heats up. It doesn't matter what "temperature" the photons are.

      >Any time a charged particle accelerates...
      Okay, so, presumably, as a single water molecule approaches absolute zero not only does the vibration of the molecular bonds approach zero, it also stops spinning? All right, I could buy that. And I suppose even a single atom has a certain directionality to its electron shells that could generate slight EM emissions as it rotates, though I suspect you have to split hairs pretty fine to detect the emissions from the rotation of a standing electron wave. Curious.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    33. Re:Interstellar missions... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Decades ago, Buckminster Fuller described this as a means to live forever: suspend all organic processes for increasingly long periods to re-activate for increasingly short durations. The ideas was that even as the universe approached heat death from uniform entropy, the little remaining energy could still be used to extend life perpetually.

      Like many of his ideas, such as the "Fuller dome" to encase entire stars to collect all energy and provide enormous living space, it's extremely impractical, But it's a wonderful thought experiment.

    34. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any suggestions on a good, concise starting point/overview? (Trying to absorb equation-based explanations when I'm not already familiar with the terms? Not my idea of a good time.)

      Wikipedia has articles on photon gas and Planck's law, with the latter including history, etc. If you want to skip the math, at least a lot of pop-sci intros to quantum mechanics and history of quantum mechanics books discuss the development of Planck's law. But this is one of the cases that Wikipedia seems to be doing well with.

      My understanding is that if a bunch of photons are absorbed by a sample, the sample heats up. It doesn't matter what "temperature" the photons are.

      The sample is always emitting photons too. If it is emitting them faster than it is absorbing them, then it won't heat up.

    35. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I question the your "mirrors and lenses" non-exception as well.

      This is something even physics grad students will get into arguments about. The hand-waving explanation is that if you had a series of lenses that let you take radiated heat from one body and heat another object up to a higher temperature, you found a way to transfer heat from cold to hot without work, and can extra free energy out of the process.

      There are several schemes people think of trying, and the reason they don't work depends on the particular of the schemes. You're parabolic reflector would not focus all light coming at it from the cold star, because the star has finite size and the parabolic reflector can only focus the light coming in parallel to its axis. As the object at the focal point gets hotter, it will emit more light itself. At the point the two objects are at the same temperature, it works out that the same amount of light comes in as goes out (as does for any other optical configuration). Every ray that comes from the cold star would also be a ray that can go from the object back to the star. The rays coming from the star come from a larger surface area, but only sample a smaller angle of the emitted rays.

      An easier to think about example is a giant elliptical mirror with the cold star and object at the foci. If they were only point sized, than all light from one would hit the other. With finite sizes, some of the light from the larger one will miss the smaller one and hit the source object instead. It works out the that the amount of light that hits the smaller object is in proportion to the the surface areas of the objects. That is the extreme limit of a parabolic dish, as it would be a mirror designed to capture all light coming from the source and focus it to a point.

      Again, it mostly comes down to the specifics of the specific scheme, and it is hard to be rigorous with just words. But with some geometry and optics knowledge, you can work out a bunch of schemes and find out it doesn't work. Or look for a solar furnace on Earth that gets hotter than 5700 K using only passive optics.

    36. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Classical optics is bidirectional: light going from source to destination takes the same path as light would from destination to source. Use whatever optics you want to focus light from a cold source on to a person, and imagine it going in reverse. You would project a very dim version of the light coming from the person on the cold source, because it is spread out. That is also the exact same area and angles that light would be coming from the source that your optics could focus, so it would show that you are only getting a small proportion of the source light to focus on the person. If the cold star was colder than the person's skin temperature, they will radiate more heat than they receive (and feel colder if ignoring evaporative cooling and that the body is generating heat... but in actuality they would feel hotter because their body would be generating heat faster than it radiates as our bodies are designed to work in environments with other sources of cooling).

    37. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Neither of those seems to address my question. Plank's Law applies to matter, and as they state in the photon gas article, photons only interact with each other under very extreme situations - any thermalization of photon energy happens as a result of their interaction with the matter of the containing vessel, which *does* have a temperature in the normal sense of the word. I'm getting the distinct impression that "photon temperature" is more of a mathematically rigorous analogy than an inherent physical property.

      And sure, the sample is always emitting photons - I figured from context it was obvious that I meant "heats up compared to if it *wasn't* absorbing those photons"

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    38. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those conditions are far, far better insulator than empty space,

      Let's compare this to something people might be able to picture better: the Earth's Mantle, which is essentially made of rock. The thermal gradient at the edge of the Sun's core is about 0.01 K/m, while the thermal gradient in the Earth's mantle is closer to 0.0001 K/m. The heat flux through the Earth's mantle is about 10-100 W / m^2 (depending on depth), while the heat flux through the edge of the Sun's core is on the order 1 GW/m^2. It is conducting nearly 8 magnitudes more heat, with only two magnitudes higher temperature gradient.

      The plasma in the Sun is an awesome heat conductor, not insulator. It helps that heat conduction in plasma scales with temperature to the 5/2 power, even if blocking thermal radiation that scales with temperature to the forth power.

    39. Re:Interstellar missions... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Why are you so opposed to the idea of radiant cooling?

      I don't understand what you are talking about. If you read what I said, the sand cool quickly because of its low heat capacity. That cooling is can be from radiant heat loss, I never said it was not. Obviously you have both factors at play.

      You do realize that, Hollywood stereotypes aside, desert != sand, right?

      Can't you freaking read? I specifically was talking about sand. Pay attention and don't get so defensive. Clouds = moisture in the air.. .another thing I specifically mentioned. Moisture in air retains heat. As for paying attention, if you had done so to start with I could still take you seriously.

    40. Re:Interstellar missions... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I never said any of the poster were right or wrong, I was just elaborating on factors that were being overlooked. There are multiple factors at play, simplifying it to "just radiant cooling" is fine if you want to keep it simple, but I guarantee a higher heat capacity soil would provide more heat to the surface air for a longer period during the night if all other factors were the same. There is simply less stored heat to radiate.

      The 'warmer' just below the surface is exactly what you expect from a low heat capacity, reflective soil.

    41. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      any thermalization of photon energy happens as a result of their interaction with the matter of the containing vessel,

      Classical gases are non-interacting, and only thermalize from interacting with the vessel. Yet, that issue rarely causes people's intuition to have issue with idea gas laws.

      I'm getting the distinct impression that "photon temperature" is more of a mathematically rigorous analogy than an inherent physical property.

      It is the same statistical definition of temperature based on partition function as has been used for over hundred years now (longer than the kinetic definition of temperature existed before that). Statistical mechanics is what allows temperature to be defined in a variety of quantum and classical systems, and it is all consistent in the sense that objects will come to thermal equilibrium.

      And sure, the sample is always emitting photons - I figured from context it was obvious that I meant "heats up compared to if it *wasn't* absorbing those photons"

      Yes, if you compared the situation between an object in a dark void receiving no light with a situation where it is exposed to light, the latter will always end up being warmer. But that seems like a rather useless tautology, that says is if you add energy to something, it has more energy. The issue with photon gas having temperature is about what happens to thermal equilibrium.

      If you expose an object to a photon gas of the same temperature as the object though, no change in temperature. If you expose an object to a photon gas with higher temperature, it will heat up, and eventually form an equilibrium there. If you expose it to a photon gas with lower temperature, the object will cool (e.g. a 0 temperature photon gas, which would be no light...). If you expose an object to a none thermal source of photons, you end up with a non-equilibrium stead state that requires constantly adding energy as the non-thermal photon distribution keeps getting converted to a thermal one.

      There is a reason temperature is a distinct concept from energy and even thermal energy. If they end up seeming too synonymous or interchangeable, then you're missing out the big picture of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics.

    42. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Umm, maybe I'm missing something important, but is not the the whole point of optics to transform radiation flux? The Hubble for example concentrates all the light from a star hitting it's entire multi-meter lens onto just a few pixels of its imaging plane. If the person was just standing next to the star the net energy transfer would be zero, but as soon as you introduce optics you should be getting get asymmetries in the energy transfer.

      A set of properly tuned lenses or reflectors can project the image (or at least radiant flux) of the person over the entire surface of the star, and conversely an image of the star over the entire surface of the person. The two bodies will then experience a net energy transfer until the total radiation flow in both directions is equal: at which point if you were standing in the column of light between my reflectors you would see the same radiation flux in both directions. However, once focused on to the surface of the respective bodies the flux will be radically different - the person has far less surface area, and thus the concentrated flux levels will be far higher around them than around the star. Which means of course that they would have to be *radically* hotter than the star to be emitting the same amount of total energy.

      I will admit though that at first glance this seems to break the laws of thermodynamics, I just don't see the flaw. Is it really not possible to focus the entire output of a radiant surface onto something smaller than itself? That just seems very unlikely - after all the converse is clearly not true: a lightbulb can light a room with no problems. Seal it in a perfectly reflecting globe with a single tiny hole and the luminous intensity will climb until the light escaping through the hole is equivalent to the light emitted by the bulb. The bulb's temperature will obviously climb as well as it reabsorbs photons, but so long as it doesn't destroy itself, if you're putting 100W of power in, sooner or later you'll be getting 100W of light streaming out of that tiny hole. I think that's actually part of the principle behind lasers, but it's been a long time since I reviewed the physics there, so don't hold me to that.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    43. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I'm beginning to be convinced, I certainly agree it would appear to violate the laws of thermodynamics otherwise, but it just doesn't feel right.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    44. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I'm objecting to you complicating the thought-experiment to no good end. Lots of different factors affect *some* deserts - but the common factor among *most* deserts is extremely low humidity, and extremely high diurnal temperature swings.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    45. Re:Interstellar missions... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If the thought experiment ignores a significant factor, is it better just because it is simpler?

      Low humidity = low heat capacity Low heat capacity = faster cooling given a set amount of radiance (be it soil or air) which equates to high temperature swings.

      Obviously, heat from the sand is lost almost entirely by radiance. I agree little is absorbed by the dry, low heat capacity air. I agree radiance is a primary factor in cooling.

      But you must understand that surface characteristic play into it as well as moisture in the air. If you have ever been to a desert city where asphalt absorbs much heat during the day, you will find that even with dry air and clear skies, the surface air temperatures do not follow such drastic, rapid swings.

    46. Re:Interstellar missions... by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

      Like many of his ideas, such as the "Fuller dome" to encase entire stars to collect all energy and provide enormous living space, it's extremely impractical, But it's a wonderful thought experiment.

      Aren't you confusing his geodesic dome homes with the "Dyson Sphere?"

    47. Re:Interstellar missions... by lgw · · Score: 1

      When light pressure is the dominant force, balancing gravity, and the energy of the system is dominated by the energy of the photons and electrons, conduction isn't playing a big role, percentage wise. The difference between 5/2 power and 4th power means the latter dominates at millions of Kelvin, no?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    48. Re:Interstellar missions... by lgw · · Score: 1

      You could set up a mirror array to focus all the light of the Sun into a point. You still couldn't heat up an object there hotter than the surface of the Sun - it would be radiating heat away fast enough to stay at that temperature.

      Temperature is a potential: like torque, or voltage difference. It limits what you can do, no matter how much light you focus, just like torque limits the force you can apply no matter how much power you have, or similar with voltage and current. For mechanical and electrical power, getting more potential (with the same total power, less losses) is easy - just add a gear or a transformer.

      With light it's also possible, but it's not optics, and it's pretty rare - fluorescent materials which absorb multiple photons of a lower frequency and emit one of a higher actually do exist, and could passively raise the temperature of part of a system, (much to the horror of thermodynamicists). It doesn't violate any conservation rules, any more than a low-temperature heat engine driving a high-temperature electric heater does. But that's not at all what's happening with mirrors and optics, which like are putting your batteries in parallel, not in series.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    49. Re:Interstellar missions... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You're quite right. That was my error: I was confusing it with the geodesic dome, for which Buckminster Fuller is indeed renowned.

    50. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Electrons are a large part of conduction in many situations, and where the 5/2 power comes into play. If radiative cooling just becomes another form of conduction when the material is optically opaque, as you already pointed out (the edge of the core was chosen as an example, because it is where it would be opaque and not in the radiative region, but not much fusion power, so it was just conducting heat, not generating it). At that point there is not much distinction between light and regular pressure, as they are quickly exchanging energy, and reach a steady state where energy is shared between kinetic energy and photons. Further out radiation takes over, at least until convection can kick in.

    51. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fluorescent materials which absorb multiple photons of a lower frequency and emit one of a higher actually do exist, and could passively raise the temperature of part of a system, (much to the horror of thermodynamicists).

      Frequency doubling crystals and other multi-photon effects don't change the temperature nor violate any thermodynamics. Energy is conserved and entropy doesn't decrease. The same process that allows two photons to combine can also work in reverse, with the ground state being elevated up by either the two lower energy photons or the one higher energy photon. This goes especially so when you don't have a coherent beam of photons, in which case the doubling process becomes very weak. Likewise, there are all sorts of processes that will convert a beam of particles into non-thermal EM emissions, but they don't work when you have a soup of thermal particles.

    52. Re:Interstellar missions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, maybe I'm missing something important, but is not the the whole point of optics to transform radiation flux?

      Yes, larger mirrors collect more light for telescopes. But most telescopes design assumes you have a light source infinitely far away, so you just have all of these parallel rays of light coming from some distant source. You can make your parabolic mirror as big as you want, and it will collect more parallel rays to focus. This doesn't work if your source is of finite size and distance. E.g. imagine a parabolic mirror with a diameter larger than the Sun. Not all of the light entering the mirror will go to the focus, only that which comes in parallel to its axis, and where would you get parallel light coming into the mirror outside the Sun's radius if the mirror was centered on the Sun? Alternatively, if you think of the reverse, the projected light from something at the focus of the mirror would be larger than the Sun, and all of the light missing the Sun would be paths that have no incoming light from the Sun.

      The bulb's temperature will obviously climb as well as it reabsorbs photons, but so long as it doesn't destroy itself, if you're putting 100W of power in, sooner or later you'll be getting 100W of light streaming out of that tiny hole.

      And if you want to calculate what temperature the bulb will reach, find what temperature it takes for a blackbody with the same area as the hole will emit 100 W. This means that plugging the hole with a black material, it will then reach an equilibrium such that it emits 100 W, and then will be at the same temperature as bulb.

      Here, I've worked out an example for parabolic mirrors that tries to simplify the geometry as much as possible (but does use calculus). Imagine you have an infinite plane shaped blackbody. This blackbody will then emit an infinite amount of energy, so you would think you could focus that down and heat up something as hot as you want. Lets use a parabolic reflector following the formula h_mirror=r^2, for distance r from its center and the origin of this coordinate system at the vertex of the parabola. The focus is then located at r=0, h=1/4 (from geometry). Now we need to place an object at this focus of some physical extent, say radius d (a zero sized object would have no surface to absorb anything, or likewise would require perfectly aligned rays of light to hit it, and that is an infinitesimal part of the light emitted). We'll assume this object is very small compared to the size of the mirror.

      Since the object has size, light doesn't have to come in perfectly parallel to vertical to hit it, and we need to work out how much leeway we have. The edge of the object is distance d from the focus, and if you pick a random point on the parabola (r, r^2), it is a distance of (r^2+1/4) from the focus (geometry/algebra) . Using that the object is small, this means the allowed deviation angle, a, is small, and sin(a)~a and opposite/hypotenuse~ d/(r^2+1/4). This means then, any point on the mirror can accept light from a solid angle of ~pi*a^2=pi*d^2/(r^2+1/4)^2 and get it to the object. If the point could get all inbound light to the focus, it would get light from anywhere in a hemisphere, solid angle 2pi, so each point on the mirror can focus a fraction (solid angle)/2*pi=d^2/(4r^2+1)^2 of light hitting that point. (You can also think of that being the fraction of light emitted on the matching point on the black body that has the right angle for its position to go down to the mirror and then hit the small object at the focus).

      Now we know the portion of light at each point on the mirror, we just need to integrate over the whole mirror to get how much light hits the object. Suppose the mirror's maximum radius is R. Then, if the fraction of light at each radius is f(r), if we integrate 2pi*r*f(r) over the whole mirror (r from 0 to R), we get the effective collecting area of the mirror. In other words, this would be the equivalent area recei

    53. Re:Interstellar missions... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      That makes no sense - an object much smaller than the sun must by necessity be *much* hotter than the sun to be able to radiate away the same amount of energy. Unless I'm very much mistaken a blackbody will radiate a fairly specific amount of energy per unit area at a given temperature.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  8. Hold your horses by Dan+East · · Score: 2, Informative

    Let's put this in perspective. The only "amazing" thing here is simply that the chemicals used in the battery are very stable. The amount of energy we're talking about is very, very low.

    FTA, it takes around 1 nanoampere to ring the bell once. It rings around around 2 Hz. Thus it takes 2 nanoampere a second, which works out to 7200 nanoampere-hours.

    So let's see how long a AA battery could run that bell. The better AAs produce 3 amp-hour of power. That is 3000000000 nanoamperes. 3000000000 / 7200 gives us 416,666 hours, which is 47.56 years. So if we could somehow spread the power of a AA out over time so the chemicals didn't break down, it could power that bell for 47.56 years. A single D battery has 12 amp-hours of power (4 times that of a AA), thus it could run the bell for 190 years.

    We're not talking about much power whatsoever - simply that the chemicals and construction of the battery are such that it has not degraded that much just through time alone.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Hold your horses by lannocc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I assume the bell used to actually ring, and therefore pulled more than 2 nanoampere for a good while.

    2. Re:Hold your horses by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually I have to correct myself. I assumed it was low voltage, like a single cell battery, and thus around 1-2 volts. That's not the case - the voltage is around 2,000 volts:
      http://www.sharingtechnology.n...

      That means my calculations were off by a factor of 1333. So if you divide the times I stated for AA and D batteries by 1,333 and you'll get a more accurate figure. So even a deep cell 12 V battery, which is around 120 watt-hours, could only run the bell for 9.5 years. Guess that makes it more impressive than I thought.

      Or my calculations are still way off.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    3. Re:Hold your horses by sjames · · Score: 1

      Your figures look about right. It is a good bit of capacity but with really poor discharge characteristics. But it's no mystery. Being a dry pile, practically the whole thing is reactants.

    4. Re:Hold your horses by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

      Correct me if I'm wrong but without knowing the voltage isn't comparing amperage hours to one another useless?

      5v * 1Ah = 5watt hours
      12v * 1Ah = 12watt hours

      Amp-hour isn't actually a unit of energy potential.

      One AA battery has about 2.6ah * 1.5v = 3.9 watt/hr
      One D Battery has about 18ah * 1.5v = 27 watt/hr

      175 years = 1533000 hours * 7200 nanoampere seconds per hour = 11.06 ah. Which if it's .1 volt would be 1 watt/hr of capacity. Or if it was 10v it would be 100 watt hour. Makes a pretty big difference. And without knowing voltage we can't compare.

    5. Re:Hold your horses by fnj · · Score: 1

      Thus it takes 2 nanoampere a second...

      "nanoamperes a second" is a completely nonsense measure. An ampere is already a time rate of transfer of charge. One ampere equals one coulomb per second.

    6. Re:Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly I do not know anyone that has built anything that will last 100+ years. Certainly not something mechanical that moves without maintenance cycles. How about something using a new and barely understood technology?

      Hell I can't get a lightbulb to go the hours it says on the box. I've been keeping track for the last 20 years, almost all of them fail.

    7. Re:Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't take a quantity of amperes to ring the bell once, it takes a quantity of coulombs - like, a count of electrons.

      Ampere measures electrons per second. Electrons per second per second is like... an acceleration of current?

      C'mon slashdot, check your units here.

    8. Re:Hold your horses by quenda · · Score: 4, Informative

      FTA, it takes around 1 nanoampere to ring the bell once. It rings around around 2 Hz. Thus it takes 2 nanoampere a second, which works out to 7200 nanoampere-hours.

      Ouch! Your bad maths is making my head hurt. Amp is a measure of current, not energy or charge.
        A nA is one nano-couloumb per second. WTF does "nanoampere a second" even mean? Current acceleration?
        One nano-Amp for an hour is precisely one nano-Amp hour, duh!
      Better known as 3.6 microcoulombs. At 2kV, it is 7.2 milli-joules of energy.
      For that idiocy you get a +5? Mods need to stay in school.

      The better AAs produce 3 amp-hour of power. That is 3000000000 nanoamperes.

      FFS! First you equate amp-hours with power, and then you equate it with amps. Where did the time unit go?
      Your 3AHr battery at one nano-Amp will last 3 x 10 to the 9 hours, or 342,000 years. (neglecting internal leakage :-)
      Of course you will need a few of them in series to equal the 2kV of the Oxford Bell.
      What has happened to /.?

      (disclaimer: After that rant, I'm almost certain to have made an error myself.)

    9. Re:Hold your horses by itzly · · Score: 2

      You can't have "nanoamperes per second". Every time the bell swings back and forth you have a small charge that's transferred. Together, the small charges add up to a current, which is estimated at about 1 nA. Using the 2000 Volt estimate, the total energy after 175 years (1534017 hours) is 1534017 hr * 2000 V * 1 nA = 3 Watt hour, which is about equal to a single AA battery.

    10. Re:Hold your horses by itzly · · Score: 1

      Here's modern reproduction. Even when the battery is new, there's not much of a sound.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    11. Re:Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      amperes/second would be the second derivative unit of a coulomb. Not really nonsense, just not something a EE would care about. Physicists would care, which might explain why some of you don't understand why a bell can ring for 175 years.

    12. Re:Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (disclaimer: After that rant, I'm almost certain to have made an error myself.)

      Yep - expecting basic technical competence on /. :-(

    13. Re:Hold your horses by nukenerd · · Score: 1
      Dan East wrote :-

      FTA, it takes around 1 nanoampere to ring the bell once. It rings around around 2 Hz. Thus it takes 2 nanoampere a second, which works out to 7200 nanoampere-hours.

      What idiots modded this as "Informative"?

      He seems to think that a nanoampere is a unit of energy. Then suddenly he converts " 2 nanoampere a second" to "nanoampere-hours" which in terms of dimensional analysis means he has somehow acquired a T (ie time) squared component from somewhere !

    14. Re:Hold your horses by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      That's still not correct. It consumes 1 nA per ring, and it rings at 2 Hz. Thus it comes 2 nA per second, or 7200 nA per hour. According to your math you're assuming it only consumes 1 nA per hour, so that's off by a factor of 7,200.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    15. Re:Hold your horses by Rashdot · · Score: 1

      Or my calculations are still way off.

      Or the battery in your calculator is failing.

      --
      This is not the sig you're looking for.
    16. Re:Hold your horses by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this was a pretty intelligent discussion for /. until that one came over the transom.

    17. Re:Hold your horses by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You missed his point. 1 nA per ring, second, hour, whatever, makes no sense. An amp is already of measurement of charge per unit time. If the current measurement is correct, which I believe it is, then the GP's formula is correct. Multiplying a current (charge / unit time) by a time gives you a measure of total charge. Multiplying by the voltage then gives you total energy.

    18. Re:Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /. has been a race to the bottom for years. I've been here since almost the beginning and almost never post any more under my user id. The smart people that used to hang around here were being moderated as -1 by the college kids who thought they knew everything.

      There was more volume of them than the really smart people, thus the race to the bottom of the majority of college kids.

      I'm glad to see that you are still hanging around.

  9. Bad units by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The battery pulls 1 nanoAmp each time it oscillates between the bellâ(TM)s sides, which is an exceedingly low amount of energy

    Nice units there.

    The battery would pull a constant charge each movement. Nanoamps are a measure of current, not charge. Nanoamps are definitely not energy.

  10. Corrosion is how it works by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Maybe the summary should have mentioned the electrochemical series or something.

    1. Re:Corrosion is how it works by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >Researchers would love to know what the battery is made of, but they are afraid that opening the bell would ruin an experiment to see how long it will last.

      Sort of suggests that nobody knows the chemistry involved, does it not?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Corrosion is how it works by itzly · · Score: 1

      Nobody knows the details for sure, but similar dry piles have been examined, so we have a good idea of the sort of stuff to expect.

  11. Hold your horses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    a nanoampere is not an amount of energy

  12. ESA could use it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's exactly the kind of technology that the European Space Agency is missing.

  13. Speaking of bells... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...does the name "Pavlov" ring a bell?

    1. Re:Speaking of bells... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      It outlasted the gong show by more than 30 years I suppose the world lost.

    2. Re:Speaking of bells... by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      No, but it makes my mouth water.

    3. Re:Speaking of bells... by kmoser · · Score: 1

      Quasimodo, perhaps?

  14. priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    QI should reference slashdot.... not the other way around

  15. Oo-er, matron! by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Population is provided by "Otto fuel II" which is a hot expanding gas

    It's caused by something expanding, but it's not a gas. At least mine isn't.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Oo-er, matron! by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

      The explanation exceeds that which is interesting to all but the REALLY curious...

      There you go... :)

    2. Re:Oo-er, matron! by mordjah · · Score: 1

      Population is provided by "Otto fuel II" which is a hot expanding gas

      ...

      It's caused by something expanding, but it's not a gas. At least mine isn't.>

      ... wait for it ...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

      The explanation exceeds that which is interesting to all but the REALLY curious...

      There you go... :)

      WWWWOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHH!!!!

      seriously, I just about spit coffee on my screen... never mod points when you need em...

      --
      "A mind reader? That sounds like sci fi." "Honey, we live on a space ship"
  16. Sounds annoying. by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Turn that goddamn bell off, I can't get any sleep!

  17. What a pile of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a pile of ...

  18. Researchers would love to know what the battery is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't know what it's made of? From http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html:
    The DuLuc Dry Pile
    High-voltage source
    ©1996 William J. Beaty

    The Duluc Dry-Pile (also called the Zamboni Pile) was an "electrostatic battery" permanent power supply used in the early 1800s and constructed from silver foil, zinc foil, and paper. Foil disks of 2cm dia. were stacked up several thousand thick and then either compressed in a glass tube with endcaps and a screw assembly, or stacked between three glass rods with wooden endplates. Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in the range of kilovolts. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte, with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other.

    The low moisture in the paper made for a very low rate of chemical consumption of the zinc electrode. The battery was sealed with molten Sulfur as there were no polymer sealers back then. Also a clock was powered by one of these.

  19. Why aren't we building better batteries already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heck even the Egyptians were making batteries in clay pots thousands of years ago so that they could electroplate jewellery.