Slashdot Mirror


How NSA Spies Stole the Keys To the Encryption Castle

Advocatus Diaboli writes with this excerpt from The Intercept's explanation of just how it is the NSA weaseled its way into one important part of our communications: AMERICAN AND BRITISH spies hacked into the internal computer network of the largest manufacturer of SIM cards in the world, stealing encryption keys used to protect the privacy of cellphone communications across the globe, according to top-secret documents provided to The Intercept by National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden. The hack was perpetrated by a joint unit consisting of operatives from the NSA and its British counterpart Government Communications Headquarters, or GCHQ. The breach, detailed in a secret 2010 GCHQ document, gave the surveillance agencies the potential to secretly monitor a large portion of the world's cellular communications, including both voice and data.

192 comments

  1. No surprise by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When you have the money and will technology and people are easy to get

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:No surprise by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Why would they NEED to steal these keys? Every single cellphone company in America would need the keys so your phone would work (roaming), and American companies have proven that they will hand over anything the US Government pays for.

    2. Re: No surprise by jovius · · Score: 1

      Less questions, paper trail, less names involved; more development, practical capability testing⦠Imagine this as weapons development.

    3. Re:No surprise by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 2

      Deniability.

      If they steal the keys, there's no public record that they have them.

      If they request them from the corporation, even if they use a national security letter, the corporation can announce that they have been requested, or use a warrant canary to stop confirming that they haven't.

    4. Re:No surprise by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Why would they NEED to steal these keys? Every single cellphone company in America would need the keys so your phone would work (roaming), and American companies have proven that they will hand over anything the US Government pays for.

      No need for a warrant, request for the information or dealing with foreign governments, they can simply intercept and decrypt anything of interest; including already collected calls.They can also then provide them to allies that may be able to intercept or have calls of interest in exchange for information. Finally, if they make special secure SIMS that are not used widely, well, those are compromised as well. Finally, collecting intelligence is fun.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    5. Re:No surprise by LF11 · · Score: 1

      Are you one of those people who would have ridiculed anyone claiming the Government can "listen to all of our phone calls any time they want" as a conspiracy theorist?

    6. Re:No surprise by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Are you one of those people who would have ridiculed anyone claiming the Government can "listen to all of our phone calls any time they want" as a conspiracy theorist?

      No. That's not surprising since the NSA has had some pretty serious computing power fro quite some time. The challenge is picking out the conversations of interest since there simply is too much data to sift through and get timely actionable information.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    7. Re:No surprise by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Are you one of those people who would have ridiculed anyone claiming the Government can "listen to all of our phone calls any time they want" as a conspiracy theorist?

      No. That's not surprising since the NSA has had some pretty serious computing power fro quite some time. The challenge is picking out the conversations of interest since there simply is too much data to sift through and get timely actionable information.

      I think it has been demonstrated that these activities are as much about having a dossier to comb through after the fact as having timely, actionable intelligence. If a person of interest catches their attention, they can go back through the records to find something to charge that person with. Although stopping terrorism is the stated goal, maintaining the status quo is also a goal and this can be a useful tool.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    8. Re:No surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah the history just repeated itself The Brits stole it and you merkins just ignored their IP rights on it.

    9. Re:No surprise by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's the only way they can shake off the last tiny little bit of half-hearted judicial oversite when they want to act outside of their charter and do things that rightfully make them a domestic enemy of the people.

    10. Re:No surprise by 7-Vodka · · Score: 1

      The challenge is picking out the conversations of interest since there simply is too much data to sift through and get timely actionable information.

      See here:

      "Greenwald reprints in the book an NSA slide from Snowden's documents that, when he first saw it, almost made him laugh because it is so surreal. Titled "New Collection Posture", it sets out the scale of the NSA's ambitions in astonishingly frank terms: "Sniff it all, Know it all, Collect it all, Process it all, Exploit it all, Partner it all.""

      --

      Liberty.

    11. Re:No surprise by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      The challenge is picking out the conversations of interest since there simply is too much data to sift through and get timely actionable information.

      See here:

      "Greenwald reprints in the book an NSA slide from Snowden's documents that, when he first saw it, almost made him laugh because it is so surreal. Titled "New Collection Posture", it sets out the scale of the NSA's ambitions in astonishingly frank terms: "Sniff it all, Know it all, Collect it all, Process it all, Exploit it all, Partner it all.""

      There is a great divide between ambition and reality. That slide represents the ambition of every intelligence agency everywhere. Achieving it is another story.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  2. NSA... by tekrat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can we all just agree that the NSA is the most nefarious hacking group, the most dangerous and out of control? That they make all the other so called "black hats" look like innocent little babies?

    I think we all need to work together to get rid of this terrible, nasty, unpredictable hacker group -- for the sake of national and international security. They represent a clear and present danger to the future of this country.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      We are the NSA. We are Legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us.

    2. Re:NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hardly, this is their fucking job. I'm glad they did it, and sad that it got publicized.

    3. Re: NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfft. Stick it straight up your ass. You shall reap what you sow and for your sake alone hell will be eternal.

    4. Re:NSA... by ATMAvatar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. It is becoming increasingly difficult to consider the NSA as anything other than an extremely well-funded criminal organization.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    5. Re:NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The hacking is not the worst abused tool in their arsenal; they aren't so skilled actual hackers, but they have resources and money and the threat of legal actions and so on on their side that they put to use to gain entry somewhere. They do not obey the rule of law we have to obey. They buy most of their exploits and buy backdoors into algorithms etc.

    6. Re:NSA... by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't seem to get it. No one wants the NSA. The American people have been polled, and overwhelmingly despise the NSA and what it does. Local and state governments have publicly declared their actions criminal, and Congress has overwhelmingly decried their activities. But they're still here and there's literally nothing we can do about it. That should tell you something.

      It's like we're all in a coffee shop, and a man armed with a 12 gauge just barged in to rob the place and demanded we all act normally. Even the cashier is nodding and offering him a latte... but in reality we're all glancing at each other wondering who's going to be brave enough to clock him over the head with their coffee mug first. There's one feeling that I think we've all felt in this country over the past 10yrs or so, and I think that feeling is best described as "Unease"

    7. Re:NSA... by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      It's like we're all in a coffee shop, and a man armed with a 12 gauge just barged in to rob the place...

      Yeah, in really slow motion, over a four year time period.

      The polls are bullshit. Count the votes. only there will you find what people really think. Everything else is just bad theater.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:NSA... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      I think we all need to work together to get rid of this terrible, nasty, unpredictable hacker group -- for the sake of national and international security. They represent a clear and present danger to the future of this country.

      I think time would be better spent improving systems especially communication systems to deny all adversaries capability to "hack the planet".

      Aggregating sources of trust like this is akin to piling gold bars on the street corner, holding a press conference announcing to the world their presence and being surprised when gold turns up missing next morning.

    9. Re:NSA... by houghi · · Score: 1

      OK, now we have established that. Now what? And none of this "It is illegal according to what some dead people wrote 200 years ago.", because we just established that.

      What acctions must be done? Writing your representatives? Suing them en masse? Electing 'the other party' every 4 years?

      It would be nice to know what actually will work.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:NSA... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Are you familiar with the story of the Golem or Frankenstein's monster?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    11. Re:NSA... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I agree. It is becoming increasingly difficult to consider the NSA as anything other than an extremely well-funded criminal organization.

      Psssh! They need to get in line behind the CIA.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    12. Re:NSA... by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      It's like we're all in a coffee shop, and a man armed with a 12 gauge just barged in to rob the place...

      Yeah, in really slow motion, over a four year time period.

      The polls are bullshit. Count the votes. only there will you find what people really think. Everything else is just bad theater.

      Considering the voter participation rate, I'd say the votes tell us most people think it isn't worth the effort to vote. Though I do vote, I can't really blame them. I vote because I'm acting on principle (I almost always vote third party), not because I think it will make a damn bit of difference. The Us "republic" is unresponsive to the will of the people. The people know this and act accordingly.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    13. Re:NSA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that they're:

      a) Inserting backdoors into software and hardware.
      b) Engaging in random hacking and data theft.
      c) Using that information to bolster their hacking activities.
      d) Unanswerable to anyone or anything, president included. ...pretty much seals it. We've got a gung-ho organization running rampant above the law and putting us all at risk for their jollies.

      We've been sold the world's biggest trojan horse and it's no bigger than an iPhone.

  3. How is this even remotely legal? by Jahoda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Under what possible interpretation of the law can this be considered the actions of lawful government?

    1. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "We are the law."

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus a million insightful! I don't even know why people have to ask that question.

    3. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Informative

      Gemalto is in the Netherlands. It's entirely legal for the NSA and GCHQ to do anything they want outside of their home countries. They were both chartered 60+ years ago to spy on foreign communications. You can certainly argue that this attack was unethical, or a bad idea, and it was definitely illegal under Dutch law- but it was legal under British and American law.

    4. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not. You were just never supposed to know about it.

      And now that you do, they still don't care, because they are the ones in power. You have no choice in the matter.

    5. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by NettiWelho · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Really? Breaking into computer systems is not a crime under British and American law?

    6. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      if this is true, then the NSA has blatantly broken law, STOLEN property (intellectual property, that's property, right? RIIIIGHT?) and nullified most of the network and systems security we have tried to put in place over the last 10 or 20 years.

      they also are using fear and intimidation to keep the population in check. ie, they are terrorists. state sponsored terrorists who steal without regard to their actions.

      so, when are they going to be tried for terrorism under the patriot act??

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    7. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      British and American laws don't have jurisdiction over computers in the Netherlands.

    8. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by meta-monkey · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Broken what law? Dutch law, I guess, so the Dutch would have to find and arrest them.

      It's not a violation of American law to rob a store in Paris.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    9. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by geoff_smith82 · · Score: 1

      You need to tell the government then, to back off Microsoft then!

    10. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by BoRegardless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "We are the law."? No! They invent the law out of thin air. Plus legislators can't be held liable for what they say or vote for in Congress (unless you can prove a bribe or conflict of interest.)

      This is the sort of attitude that eventually destroys institutions from within, though it takes awhile.

      I do tend to agree that secession is inevitable in the US, just as it seems heading in that direction in the EU. What that will do is return some semblance (notice I said some) to States rights and hopefully smaller government, which currently redistributes about 50% of all earnings in the US. That is double what serfs paid in around a thousand years ago.

    11. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by NettiWelho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Broken what law? Dutch law, I guess, so the Dutch would have to find and arrest them.

      It's not a violation of American law to rob a store in Paris.

      I believe the Netherlands have an extradition treaty with both UK and US.

      What's been done here is a crime in all 3 nations.. Besides, doesnt US consider hacking an act of war?

    12. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      Under what possible interpretation of the law can this be considered the actions of lawful government?

      The "we know about all your secrets" interpretation of the law.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    13. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Extradition treaties with the US only work one way. To the US, never from.

    14. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if this is true, then the NSA has blatantly broken law, STOLEN property (intellectual property, that's property, right? RIIIIGHT?) and nullified most of the network and systems security we have tried to put in place over the last 10 or 20 years.

      they also are using fear and intimidation to keep the population in check. ie, they are terrorists. state sponsored terrorists who steal without regard to their actions.

      so, when are they going to be tried for terrorism under the patriot act??

      Wow, you are a crazy one. You and the people who modded you up. lol I love coming to this site and reading what all your crazy conspiracy theorist people come up with. Lay off the crack pipe people!

    15. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by bware · · Score: 4, Insightful

      http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/02/18/0239259/russian-man-extradited-to-us-for-heartland-dow-jones-cyberattacks. The US seems more than willing to extradite and try someone from a foreign country for hacking US computers. It seems likely the US has an extradition treaty with the Netherlands. It seems likely the Netherlands has laws against hacking computers.

    16. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahaha. Law? Seriously sir, you must be delusional to think any government is lawful.

    17. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by HiThereImBob · · Score: 1, Insightful

      if this is true, then the NSA has blatantly broken law, STOLEN property ...

      I'm confused by the general reaction here. The NSA hacked a foreign company and stole encryption keys that would allow them to monitor communication networks. They are a government intelligence institution, this is exactly the type of thing they were formed to do. I understand the general dislike of their actions, if fact I share it, but what is the point of screaming about them being criminals because they hacked foreign computer networks to gain an advantage in intelligence gathering? Did anyone really think they weren't doing this? Isn't this exactly their job?

      I also find the general reaction of the NSA to this whole leak confusing. It seems obvious to me that if you hire thousands of American Citizens and then redefine words like "collection" to allow you to secretly spy on the families and friends of those people you employ, some of them will be angry about that. Any time I see the news there is another story about the NSA losing another super cool spy toy it must have taken them years to develop. How much are they willing to bleed to continue the collection of random peoples phone records? Records that have produced near zero actionable intelligence. If I were in their position I would tell congress that this stupid program isn't nearly worth what it has cost us, and that common sense indicates this will happen over and over if we keep trying to violate the rights of our support base, the same base who happens to be our entire hiring pool.

    18. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Reverse that. The Netherlands doesn't have jurisdiction over British and American laws. Well, they don't have the weaponry to resist. Might makes right...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    19. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Besides, doesnt US consider hacking an act of war?

      Depends.. Who's asking?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    20. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >(unless you can prove a bribe or conflict of interest.)

      Bribe is legal.

    21. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the job of the NSA is not to monitor all communications networks. Its job is to monitor some of the communications of America's enemies. This defense is the oddest I've seen yet. It's almost as if a family butcher murdered his family, and people are going "Well what did you expect, it's his job to dismember animal carcasses." Well yes it is his job to do that some of the time, but that doesn't give him free reign to kill everyone around him. The NSA was given power by the government to monitor the signals intelligence of certain groups at certain times. We can certainly complain if they indiscriminately monitor everyone's communications.

    22. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      That may well be true... but the purpose of the hack is to spy on the US populace - that's the reason to have copies of these keys.

      The actual hack may be within their operational remit, but the materiel they gathered using it is clearly for purposes that are not. You can't really justify the operational budget for it in that case.

    23. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Actually they do. In the EU they can get a European Arrest Warrant for anyone in the UK, including GCHQ staff. They can also investigate crimes that happened in the Netherlands but were committed by people in the UK. International crimes have been going on forever and there are established mechanisms for dealing with them.

      It's a shame that The Intercept has not published the names of those at GCHQ who committed these crimes so that they can be brought to justice. They have clear evidence of criminal activity and yet are protecting the criminals from prosecution under the law.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    24. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the Netherlands just needs to ask for anyone with any knowledge of the hack (from Obama down to the programmers and system admins) to be extradited and then tried.

    25. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by drunk_punk · · Score: 1

      It isn't. It can't be. That being said we are talking about a black organization that operates with little to no oversight. Sue the NSA? I'd love to see how this would be accomplished! Ten to one it would get railroaded into some hidden court away from the public where you'd get a swat on the hands and a stern warning that your messing with National Security, terrorists, and `Merica.

    26. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Under what possible interpretation of the law can this be considered the actions of lawful government?

      Oh, do you have standing to bring a suit? No? Know anyone who does? No? Well, that's that, then.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    27. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      Sure. Now the Netherlands needs to identify an individual they suspect of the crime and request their extradition. How do you think that will go?

    28. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by antdude · · Score: 1

      Judge Dredd, is that you?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    29. Re:How is this even remotely legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering this was a government-sanctioned attack, extradition is probably one of the least appropriate responses.

  4. This should financially ruin the US und GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but of course it won't.

  5. Rainbow tables by ArchieBunker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is this a big deal considering we already have the GSM rainbow tables?

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:Rainbow tables by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      GSM never used end-to-end encryption, so I don't think anyone should have considered it secure.

      It is a big deal that the US did this to their European allies.

    2. Re:Rainbow tables by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2

      Rainbow tables only worked for GSM, which is now decades out of date. Most people are going to be connected to 3G or higher in urban areas (i.e. where all the action is), which isn't so easily hacked. Hence their interest. It's in the article, even.

    3. Re:Rainbow tables by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't read the article did you?

      This is for 3G, LTE, and 4G.

  6. I think people do not understand how deep it is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not just about SIM cards.

    Gemalto makes smart card readers etc. Think not just communications, nor banking. Think secure access. We use things like that to ascertain authenticity and inviolability in signed documents, emails etc.

    We used.

  7. Remarkable feat by mi · · Score: 0

    AMERICAN AND BRITISH spies hacked into the internal computer network of the largest manufacturer of SIM cards in the world, stealing encryption keys used to protect the privacy of cellphone communications across the globe

    Remarkable feat! Guys from Bletchley Park — who also intercepted and decrypted everything they possibly could — would've been proud...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Remarkable feat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes well they were at war with Germany. Now the government is at war with - the people?

    2. Re:Remarkable feat by xaxa · · Score: 4, Informative

      Remarkable feat! Guys from Bletchley Park — who also intercepted and decrypted everything they possibly could — would've been proud...

      These are the "guys from Bletchley Park" -- in the sense that it's the same government organisation.

      "During the Second World War, GC&CS was based largely at Bletchley Park ... GC&CS was renamed the "Government Communications Headquarters" in June 1946"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

    3. Re:Remarkable feat by mi · · Score: 2

      Yes well they were at war with Germany. Now the government is at war with - the people?

      Who you intercept and who you actually fighting don't have to be the same people. You listen to everybody to find out, who your targets are. This is obvious to all, and the security people — who have huge leeway in interpreting laws — act to perform their mission, which is to keep us safe...

      Now, are we — the rest of society — willing to trade our privacy for these gains in security? Does the freedom being surrendered qualify as essential and the gain — as temporary?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    4. Re:Remarkable feat by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Judging on the way they handled Turing for his 'crimes' I suppose letting them know all about everybody's lives is just OK. After all only criminals and terrorists should fear.
        Oh wait they apologized afterward so all is well then....

  8. An example of the: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Proof of Power Principle: You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.

  9. Class action lawsuit ? by Alain+Williams · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Should Gemalto be sued by people who use their cards & other products on the grounds that they did not adequately secure their computer systems and thus let in outside crackers to steal the encryption keys ? That the crack was done by GCHQ/NSA does not really alter things -- they were cracked. The point of this is that successful legal, and expensive, action would make all corporates treat security properly; this would have great benefits -- more than just keeping the spooks at bay.

    The only problem is that to sue Gemalto the plaintiffs would need to demonstrate that they have suffered. This might be hard, although insisting that they were all given new SIMs might be a start.

    1. Re:Class action lawsuit ? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So if somebody breaks into your house, steals your car keys and proceed to run somebody over they should sue you for manslaughter? Because you know you could have put those in a safe inside a vault inside a bunker and not in your spare pair of pants. No, what you describe is pretty much the reason the US legal system is what it is and having a ton of good lawyers on staff is a necessity. And it wouldn't really stop the NSA anyway.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Class action lawsuit ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gemaltos business model is based on TRUST, that TRUST has been SHATTERED! By their own admissions they are clueless! They will suffer massively.

    3. Re:Class action lawsuit ? by Knightman · · Score: 1

      Your analogy doesn't work. Here is a better one:

      Somebody breaks into a combination-lock factory and steals the list of serial-numbers and their associated codes. They then proceed to use this information to break into peoples homes and rifle through all their belongings.

      Don't you think that a home-owner who bought this lock thinking it was secure is going to do something about it?

      The company selling the locks now has a couple of problems: the public image of their company has been tarnished, all the the locks they have sold are now insecure and a lot of customers now want their insecure locks exchanged for secure at no cost. All this will hit the company hard financially.

      --
      --- Reality doesn't care about your opinions, it happens anyway and if you are in the way you'll get squished.
  10. Re:A big surprise by aberglas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually it is surprising. Many if not most large government IT projects are appallingly run. Vast amounts of money wasted on useless consultants that end up producing very little if anything at all.

    As the NSA's budget grows and grows, I suspect this will happen to them. Lots of MBAs that can only organize their own careers, while the crypto-nerds are pushed into the background.

  11. Time to go back to land lines and cash. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At what point do we start putting these criminals away? They have broken every law on the books.

    1. Re:Time to go back to land lines and cash. by jonwil · · Score: 2

      No, time to go to open source verified-by-security-audit strongly-encrypted VoIP (the kind that at the very least will require the spooks to put a lot of effort into cracking it so they cant just vacuum it all up like they do now) and secure anonymous distributed crypto-currencies that the feds cant easily track (and cant seize as part of a "random" roadside stop on the interstate)

    2. Re:Time to go back to land lines and cash. by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At what point do we start putting these criminals away? They have broken every law on the books.

      One of the most insidious effects of this sort of Panopticon-level data collection & analysis is that it works as well against prosecutors, judges, AGs, and even SCOTUS justices, as it does some CEO or key IT admin somewhere they're interested in compromising.

      Parallel construction is blind, therefor the current US justice system no longer is. Along with every other government agency, bureau, department, etc, all the way down.

      Total Information = Total Control

      The US Government is under the control of those who control that information. Even if the target is squeaky-clean, they are perfectly capable of planting things like kiddie-porn or any other convenient data on a hard drive such that it would stand up to the type/depth of forensics used in the typical criminal trial.

      Threatening to leak damaging private information, especially when it involves an elected official right before a(n) (re)election, works without even involving the justice system or making a public scene.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:Time to go back to land lines and cash. by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Lets hope the certs for that end to end link are still good as offered :)
      A lot of nations will now just go back to one time pads and number stations with all the junk Western networks used for quality disinformation.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  12. Legal, schmeagle by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Under what possible interpretation of the law can this be considered the actions of lawful government?

    Oh, I'm sure they can find something. You can't do anything about it -- you can't sue -- because you don't have standing. You'd have to show they were listening to *you*, just to start with, and then you'd have to have a few million to push it through to the supreme court.

    And *then* of course you'd be facing the same idiots that think "shall not infringe" means "infringe", "intrastate" means "interstate", article 3 means article 5, and that "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized" means "as long as we think it's reasonable, we can search and seize to our heart's content", and " no ex post facto Law shall be passed" means "retroactive punishment is no problem."

    The only privacy you have at this point is in your own head. Assuming you haven't spoken, written down, or otherwise "shared" your thoughts.

    The system is broken. Badly. And very few care -- we're stuck on this downhill-all-the-way roller coaster ride.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Legal, schmeagle by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Even if you don't speak or write, you read. They note everything you read, in what order, how long you linger on which articles. They know what goes in your head, which gives them a pretty good idea what stays there.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    2. Re:Legal, schmeagle by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The system is broken.

      "I come from a broken family. I broke it myself"

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Legal, schmeagle by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      LOL.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  13. We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Veterans Today on February 11, 2015

    Why the United States Always Loses Its Wars

    We are the global village bully that's hated by much of the world.

    America loses all its wars because it seems we've always been on the wrong side of history. Morally nor legally should any nation have the right to invade and occupy another sovereign nation, much less believe it can achieve victory in long, protracted wars.

    Yet in violation of all ethical precepts and all international laws, the sole global superpower citing its impunity through exceptionalism hypocritically insists it can maintain its moral high ground in its relentless pursuit of regime changes anywhere it so chooses on earth. We are the global village bully that's hated by much of the world.

    And it's pure self-aggrandizing bullshit to perpetrate the myth that America is hated because of our "freedom," another rhetorical brainwashing lie. We now live in a fascist totalitarian police state run by a globalized crime syndicate of the central banking cabal. As of last April per a Princeton-Northwestern study the US has officially been designated an oligarchy.

    Last year after a group of ethnic Russians living in Crimea voted to become part of Russia, the Russian military claimed control over its own naval base there that the US-NATO had been lusting to steal after the unlawful overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected sovereign government.

    Ever since it's been nonstop lies and propaganda propagated to demonize Putin as the aggressor when in fact all along it's the American Empire that's been recklessly pushing what could end up World War III against nuclear powered Russia. With US-NATO missiles installed on Russia's doorstep in virtually every former Soviet eastern bloc nation, hemming Russia in, who's really the aggressor here?

    The WMD lie that was the repeated mantra used as prewar drum beating propaganda to launch a war against humanity in Iraq a dozen years earlier is now being replayed as deja vu all over again to amnesic, dumbed down Americans. Despite defeats in both Iraq and Afghanistan still being dragged out as America's longest running wars in its history, the US-NATO war machine is once again prepping for yet more war raging now in Eastern Ukraine.

    The US government's rush to war hit a minor snag the other day when various European nations like France and Germany announced their opposition and refusal to send arms to the Ukraine government, wanting to give peace talks with Russia a chance. Today's headlines state that Obama has been forced to pause in his arms rush, not unlike the world turning against his rush a year and a half ago for air strikes in Syria after the false flag chemical weapons attack that was actually launched by US backed rebels.

    So it may not be full speed ahead for US Empire to ship its heavy weaponry to the eastern warfront after all. It is being reported that mercenaries speaking American English, Polish, French and Flemish are fighting for the Kiev government in Eastern Ukraine against ethnic Russians who are fighting for their independence, their home and their very survival. And with their backs up against the wall, recently the eastern Ukrainians have beaten back the Ukrainian government forces. Again, the US has a knack for being on the wrong side of history.

    No true victor can emerge from any war on either side. The incessant US aggressor boasting superior firepower as the most deadly, expensive military force on the planet (spending more than the next ten nations combined), America has little to show for itself as it has not won a single war in seventy years!

    Neo-colonialism cloaked in imperialism, balkanization, economic exploitation, debtors' theft, indentured servitude and enslavement can never be justified as the spoils of war. It's a losing proposition in every imaginable way, not only for the aggressive American Empire that keeps starting and losing war aft

    1. Re: We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe this kind of fearmongering is any better than the fearmongering used to incite wars and control the massas...

    2. Re:We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I see the Russian shills are out in force.

    3. Re:We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wagging the dog. The USA acts as the Queen's muscle. The empire stands taller than most males do every morning when they wake up.

    4. Re:We are the global village bully by u38cg · · Score: 2

      I considered moderating this down, but I will reply instead. This is such a warped, confused view of history it's hard to know where to start. However; there is such a thing as a just war, international security is hard, and Russia had and has no right to Crimea or the Ukraine. Iraq WMDs: I remind you that Saddam believed he had WMDs. As for the Lusitania, I would remind you Churchill had his hands full with a minor issue called Gallipoli. And in Syria and Libya, there were no good options, and the situation was not of the West's making; it's difficult to know when a market trader's messy suicide will start a regional revolution.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    5. Re: We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well not THE ukraine...

    6. Re:We are the global village bully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I remind you that Saddam believed he had WMDs." [citation needed]

    7. Re:We are the global village bully by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      I considered moderating this down, but I will reply instead. This is such a warped, confused view of history it's hard to know where to start. However; there is such a thing as a just war, international security is hard, and Russia had and has no right to Crimea or the Ukraine. Iraq WMDs: I remind you that Saddam believed he had WMDs. As for the Lusitania, I would remind you Churchill had his hands full with a minor issue called Gallipoli. And in Syria and Libya, there were no good options, and the situation was not of the West's making; it's difficult to know when a market trader's messy suicide will start a regional revolution.

      We are lied into every war; every single one. The actual reasons we go to war often have to do with economic or strategic interests. But people don't get ready to fight and die for economic interests. They fight and die for survival. So you make it about survival, and tell the people how the enemy is coming to kill their children in their beds. Or you appeal to their sense of righteousness and tell them how we must save this other poor downtrodden people from the dictator we installed (oops, did I say that last part out loud?). After all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy. The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. The United States isn't the only place this is done, of course. It works the same way in any country.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    8. Re:We are the global village bully by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Thank you for your opinionated, factless rant. It has really changed my point of view.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
  14. Time to Embargo USA and UK by DavenH · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's what they'd do.

    1. Re:Time to Embargo USA and UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with that.

    2. Re:Time to Embargo USA and UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Europe should just invalidate all Five Eyes copyrights, patents and trademarks until the damage is paid. That's Europe minus the UK, those fucking traitors. If they want to be the 51st state, they can fuck off.

    3. Re:Time to Embargo USA and UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what? That's actually brilliant. And I'm saying this as an American. Maybe this would finally grab them by the balls (since it would be indirectly taking money away from government goons via bribes--I mean, "campaign contributions"), as well as send a clear message to any other traitorous government that wants to be the bitch of our corrupt government.

  15. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's already sort of the case. The NSA and similar agencies in other countries are LOADED with useless incompetent staff and engineers. It has everything to do with their impossible hiring practices combined with it being a shitty unethical job. They don't even pay super well, and anyone competent can make more in the private sector.

    This makes the whole thing even more scary to me, because being utterly corrupt and not very bright are pretty much absolute requirements for the job. The fact that they get anywhere at all is because they have a huge budget and federal backing to force companies to play along.

    I'm always extremely skeptical of stories that the NSA actually broke something through math. It's way way more plausible that they simply paid someone off on the inside.

  16. Re:A big surprise by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the points are though, that first, companies do not do a good job of cybersecurity, or security at all for that matter. This is the issue that allowed another party to gain access to the crypto data for the SIM cards and for other security mechanisms in order to defeat them.

    And second, while the NSA and the British equivalent might be unweildy bureaucratic monsters where those in-charge might not even know what the appendages are doing, they're well-enough funded that they can afford to buy people off to socially-engineer their way in to places where they wouldn't otherwise have the right to go. That gives them the ability to get into corporate networks or to get data from individuals working for corporations; they buy their way in and the consequences of the actions of the employee are not the NSA's concern. All they want/need is the data, and if they can buy it for cash or buy their way in for cash then they might just do that.

    Security is hard. Ultimately it comes down to the individual employee, who has to have access to what he or she works on, but by having that access, also can be a risk. A multimillion dollar system can be compromised by a single technical employee because that employee needs access through those safeguards to do the job. It's really no different than bribing the guards at the castle to get in.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  17. Every company should release their private data by CQDX · · Score: 5, Interesting

    on every US and UK government employee. Let them become life-time victims of identity theft. Let the Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies have a field day. It's the only hope we have that they'll learn.

    1. Re:Every company should release their private data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can understand the fustration, but damning everyone when only a few are at fault is not the way to go.

      The people who deliver mail probably have not done anything that would warrant such. Nor the people who give tours of the White House. Nor the soldiers that risk their lives overseas. Nor astronauts, because spaaaaaaaaaace.

    2. Re:Every company should release their private data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are a scorched earth moron. You think a park ranger in butt-fuck utah should have all of his private data release because of the NSA?

    3. Re:Every company should release their private data by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      Maybe you didn't hear, but companies do try to make a profit. Throwing your customers to the wolves may not be the simplest way for a company to commit suicide, but it'll do.

    4. Re:Every company should release their private data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or the guards in concentration camps. They're just trying to feed their families, right?

    5. Re:Every company should release their private data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is about as non sequitur as one can get.

      I was listing government jobs, some of which pay less than minimum wage and have zero influence over policy, where the vast majority of people doing those jobs are probably not doing anything illegal. In no way was I saying that there were no illegal jobs. Nor was I saying there are no people who do illegal things in any job. I was simply saying that there are plenty of people employed by the government who do nothing illegal, or even immoral if you want to go that far.

  18. Of course... by chill · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why do you think all the recent cell phones that are rated for classified voice, such as the Sectera Edge and Project Fish Bowl all run VoIP for classified communications?

    Because they know better than to trust the commercial telephone networks and their voice "security".

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    1. Re:Of course... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it is because the US government has certain requirments for dealing with classified information, and PAID for a system to meet those requirements.

    2. Re:Of course... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To expand on what that AC said, while the commercial telephone networks might not be secure enough for the US government for classified information, they might rate it secure enough for other types of information.

      There is a whole rating system used to define what kind of information can go on what type of products. I am not sure what goes where, but the ratings do exist. Things that are publicly available just don't fit on the most-secure rating.

  19. While we are at it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...can we all return the favor by pressuring the government to Grant Snowden Clemency?

    If people don't stand up to protect whistleblowers, then there will be no whistle blowers, and government evil will run unchecked.

    Sign it.

  20. Counting Alarmist Sheep by retroworks · · Score: 0

    Here's how I see this. For the average person, if an actual NSA person was paid to follow them or look at them, the NSA would get tied up and bored to death. There are far too many people using Sim cards than there are government employees.

    So second, could this private information be used by a rogue NSA employee, say an old college boyfriend to stalk or "peep" into private correspondence? Snowden has absolutely demonstrated that risk, that any of us could be somewhat randomly spied on. But the odds of any single one of us being examined is still as low as previously stated. Annoying but low actual risk.

    Could a dictator use this access to information to cow us into subservience? Seems a stretch. In the USA example, if a Democratic/Republican president let slip they were using this info collected by the NSA for political means, the opposing party would hang them with it.

    So the most likely use is, as NSA claims, to catch bad guys. Saw John Doe used porn, saw Jane Doe was in AA, but no time or interest in that, they are looking for Bin Laden.

    The second most likely use would be a politically active person trying to change the status quo. Like Martin Luther King. If FBI Director J.Edgar Hoover had his hands on this kind of access, the USA would have been screwed. But then again, they assassinated King, and today it would be much harder to cover that up. The FBI directors now have to worry about a Snowden in their midsts, which should keep them more honest.

    Mathematically, I'm extremely unlikely to be affected by Bin Laden... the mathematical of terrorist threats is smaller than getting hit by a car (for now). And the likelihood I'd be targeted by a college stalker or NSA agent is also very small. So is the risk that my social security number will be picked off of dropbox. The risk here is that a true intellectual agent of change will be targeted, or that Al Quaeda or ISIS will screw the international banking system so bad that the entire world economy is screwed up and people panic and break into stores and start killing each other. So I sleep at night hoping NSA is as concerned about the latter as much as I am, and hope to God they also fear and realize the precedent set by J. Edgar Hoover.

    In the final analysis, I hope people with liberal arts degrees choose to go work for the NSA. The one former employee of NSA that I know personally had a liberal arts degree, and I hope she's not alone. I hope people who care about and worry about the things I worry about are working there, and sometimes I fear the reaction to the NSA is similar to the reaction of hippies in the 60s to business and capitalism... all the agents of conscience were afraid to get their consciences dirty, refused to go into business management, and we had 2-3 decades of business management dominated by assholes. We want more Snowdens in the NSA, and hyperbolizing the agency's "evil" is perhaps the greatest risk.

    --
    Gently reply
    1. Re:Counting Alarmist Sheep by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The problem is tame junk encryption is really open to many ex staff, former staff, other nations, cults, faiths, rich people, political groups, anyone with lots of cash and a few contacts.
      SISMI-Telecom scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Greek wiretapping case 2004–05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...–05
      Cell networks have a very low standard of local encryption thanks to weak junk international standards been set over many years. The results can now be see and understood.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Counting Alarmist Sheep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are an idiot, or a plant.

      NSA is about stealing industrial secrets. "Average Person" is employee X at Siemens, you Jackass.

    3. Re:Counting Alarmist Sheep by retroworks · · Score: 1

      Thanks for explaining it so well. I was trying to think it through, how concerned I should be. So, idiot I guess. Curious who would the "plant" be working for. I take it that you believe NSA is in the business of taking trade secrets from companies like Siemens of Germany and giving the engineering to... um. USA corporations? Or multinational? Because Siemens medical equipment, CAT scans, etc., are.... um. Yeah, I'm still an idiot. Can you 'splain some more?

      --
      Gently reply
  21. USA! USA USA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I think some of the points, however plausible, are a bit on the side of paranoia, the Libertarians firmly believe that we should have only a defense force and not project power.

    The current rational now for IS - or whatever they are called now - is to fight them over there so they don't come over here. They just want control of the Middle East - they are no threat to us. Also, the Arabs, Persians, Kurds, and other people's of the Middle East have been dealing with their ethnic problems for thousands of years. And of course, being there, we the USA are going to fuck things up even more.

    Unfortunately, we have a populous who treats our military conquests like a football game. USA! USA! win! It makes small people feel big.

    We in the USA are small people who like big guns. We lost the idea of walk softly and carry a big stick.

    We bluster, shoot things up and wonder why other peoples hate us.

    But this football mentality is how you get people to volunteer to fight in idiotic and unjust wars - get the stupid people to die and get maimed for the elite.

    1. Re:USA! USA USA! by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > the Libertarians firmly believe that we should have only a defense force and not project power.

      Uh, ignoring the few cases of the Police over-stepping their bounds, have you completely forgotten the history of the Police or Firemen and how they have operated in say the last 100 years?

      The moto was: To Serve and To Project

      They don't go around picking fights. They were originally there to stop them, and to help people.

      On the global scene the USA is too busy putting its nose into places where it doesn't belong. Maybe if they focused more on the mother land and made a dent in idiotic wars like "War on Drugs", focused on investing in a quality Education, focused on the economy, worked on removing corruption from Politics and Wall St., then maybe people would respect them more.

      Your football mentality metaphor is a good one.

    2. Re:USA! USA USA! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      On the global scene the USA is too busy putting its nose into places where it doesn't belong. Maybe if they focused more on the mother land and made a dent in idiotic wars like "War on Drugs"...

      Excuse me, I believe the propaganda word that has been chosen to pull at our emotions and get us to rally around the State is "homeland". Boy, did my ears perk up when I first heard that word used to describe the United States.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    3. Re:USA! USA USA! by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      You might actually want to take a look at reality then.

      Let's compare the Communist Manifesto and the current state of affairs with the USA.

      1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.
      2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
      3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
      4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
      5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
      6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.
      7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
      8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
      9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
      10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

      So how does the USA measure up?

      1. Allodial Title no longer exists
      2. 30% isn't heavy??
      3. You're taxed even on death ??
      4, Starting with the confiscation of all gold bullion, good luck getting what the FBI and Police confescate
      5. Federal Reserve ironically is nether federal, nor a reserve
      6. FCC, Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission
      7. Agriculture is heavily subsidized
      8. Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor
      9. Planning Reorganization Act of 1949
      10. Public schools, aka indoctrination

      Gee, only batting a perfect 10/10 . :-(

      This excellent An Underground History of American Education (PDF) book describes part of the problem.

    4. Re:USA! USA USA! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure how I got here after a subtle joke about how Americans have been propagandized after 9/11/2001.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    5. Re:USA! USA USA! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Oh, and I should have mentioned that I'm already a fan of John Taylor Gatto. My political and social views are, let's say outside the mainstream.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    6. Re:USA! USA USA! by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the clarification!

      I wasn't exactly sure of which direction you were leaning.

      Hard to tell with lack of emotes / sarcasm. :-/

  22. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    What exactly is your statement based on? The NSA actively recruits math and CS majors with high GPAs (source: I've been approached and I have friends that were as well) and/or unique talents. I'm sure they do have some flunkies working for them, probably mostly among its military population, but your statement is totally out of line.

  23. You just don't get it do you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    International corporations owns the US, the corporations want everyone's data so they can destroy their competition. If the US government is actually in charge, all the banks would have been sued after the 2008 financial crisis, but they didn't, the banks and big corps own the US and they own you. That's who the data is for, they want dirt on everyone just in case they one day become a threat to the corps.

    Why The NSA Leaks Will Lead To More Economic Espionage Against American Companies

  24. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My source.... well... here goes.

    Yes, they actively recruit Math and CS majors with high GPAs. That is true.
    However....
    In order to get in you must:
    1) Pass a preliminary security interview
    2) Pass a polygraph test
    3) Pass a drug test (including for marijuana) - this eliminates a LOT of competent people
    4) Pass a more in-depth security interview ... probably more steps which I haven't mentioned.

    By the time this is all done, about a year and a half has gone by. A bunch more of their potential recruits will be established at a job they want to stay at at this point. The ones who are still seeking work are unemployed after so much time for a reason - often because they're incompetent.

    On top of that, the pool of people morally corrupt enough to even _consider_ working for the NSA is teeny.
    GPA is one predictor of competence at work, but it's not a 100% reliable predictor by any means. There are many people who can breeze through academia but who are utterly useless on any real job. People like this _like_ government jobs where they may get a permanent contract and where no one can judge their level of competence.

    It REALLY is this way. Every single government security agency on the planet has this same problem and the NSA is no different. Competant people do not work there for long. They will lose their minds or end up the next Edward Snowden.

  25. SIM based mobile ID card? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here in Finland it has been possible for us to use SIM card based authentication service http://www.mobiilivarmenne.fi/en/faq/ to access medical, tax and social security related information. The alternative is to use online banks as authenticators for the services. I have always been leery of trusting mobile phone operators to do the right thing with regards to security. It will be interesting to see if this news has any impact on the future of Mobile ID applications.

  26. QQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So second, could this private information be used by a rogue NSA employee, say an old college boyfriend to stalk or "peep" into private correspondence? Snowden has absolutely demonstrated that risk, that any of us could be somewhat randomly spied on. But the odds of any single one of us being examined is still as low as previously stated. Annoying but low actual risk.

    Actually, that's the terrifying thing about it. The odds are low, but they're not zero. Someday, out of the blue, for no apparent reason, the US Government can make your life living Hell just because of a more-or-less random fluke. Either because some bored drone happened to pick up on some off-the-wall event in your life or because blind statistical methods bumped you into a suspect group. Say, for example that you like pita-bread sandwiches at The Oasis Sandwich shop and you put your kids in a daycare center run by people who send money to Palestine and you subscribe to Chemistry Quarterly and you donate money to the Libertarian Party.

    That's the real danger of indiscriminate trawling. It gives them ammo in advance for a war that should never have been fought.

    1. Re:QQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't think OP says it's absolutely zero.

  27. Re:A big surprise by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually it is surprising. Many if not most large government IT projects are appallingly run. Vast amounts of money wasted on useless consultants that end up producing very little if anything at all.

    As the NSA's budget grows and grows, I suspect this will happen to them. Lots of MBAs that can only organize their own careers, while the crypto-nerds are pushed into the background.

    Except that this is not an IT project, but an espionage project. It just happened to have an IT component; one very different than the create a web site / database / payroll system project.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  28. Snowden cared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And, unlike most of us, Snowden actually did something about it. As a result of his revelations, political pressure is being applied to the government from many different directions to get the situation resolved.

    Of course, it cost Snowden his job, and his ability to live in his own country, and might still land him in jail or worse.

    You could swallow some of that cynicism and at least try to improve things. Maybe ask the government to grant snowden clemency?

    Nah. Why exert the effort to click an online petition when it is so much easier to just bitch about how hopeless things are?

    1. Re:Snowden cared. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 0

      Maybe ask the government to grant snowden clemency?

      Nah. Why exert the effort to click an online petition when it is so much easier to just bitch about how hopeless things are?

      And yet you post as AC.....

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    2. Re:Snowden cared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you post as AC.....

      Perhaps you should say what you mean instead of mean what you say, because you said absolutely nothing.

    3. Re:Snowden cared. by nobuddy · · Score: 0

      I thought it was pretty obvious. Let me help you

      And yet you post as Anonymous Coward.....

    4. Re:Snowden cared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obvious how? Perhaps the thought should be completed. Trailing off with ellipses does not sense make.

      The only thing I can guess is that you people are implying that there is something inherently wrong with posting as AC; however, the only thing wrong I see about AC is the elitism against it. And if I am off the mark, that is no fault but your own for not bothering to say what you mean.

    5. Re:Snowden cared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You thought it was obvious? You must be a mind reader, because as the post was written, it says nothing.

      Maybe ask the government to grant snowden clemency?

      Nah. Why exert the effort to click an online petition when it is so much easier to just bitch about how hopeless things are?

      And yet you post as AC.....

      This makes zero sense. It is completely non sequitur.

    6. Re:Snowden cared. by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      And, unlike most of us, Snowden actually did something about it. As a result of his revelations, political pressure is being applied to the government from many different directions to get the situation resolved.

      Of course, it cost Snowden his job, and his ability to live in his own country, and might still land him in jail or worse.

      You could swallow some of that cynicism and at least try to improve things. Maybe ask the government to grant snowden clemency?

      Nah. Why exert the effort to click an online petition when it is so much easier to just bitch about how hopeless things are?

      I'm going to go with "because an online petition won't do a damn thing" for $1000, Alex.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    7. Re:Snowden cared. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell, at this point, I'm am going to go with "because petitions won't do a damn thing" for $2000.

      When was the last time any petition did anything at the federal level? I am honestly curious.

  29. Where does Snowden get all this information from? by schweini · · Score: 2

    Could someone explain where Edward Snowden is getting these kind of leaks and infos from, so long after he fled the NSA?

    Or was this information, and the other stuff he claimed in the last couple of months, all part of the package he took with him back then?

    If he was sitting on this information, then why wait so long to release it?

    Or does he have a new source 'inside'?

  30. Re:NSA... what? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    What? NSA is consistent with what happens in most companies. In these big corporations is a top management [government] not much aware of the tecky stuff, and takes more or less irresponsible decisions based on incompetence. How a government is supposed to decide the good and bad of actions of which they're totally incapable of understanding the implications? Something that should be understood by any gov that doesn't require much skill is that the more an entity has power, the more it has to exist a counter entity able to control it. The police has such a controlling entity. Why isn't there anything competently controlling the NSA?

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  31. It's an intelligence procedure by Bruce66423 · · Score: 0

    And so covered by state immunity. Actually IF we could be confident that the stolen stuff was only going to be used externally, it's probably totally legitimate. The problem is that they demonstrated that they can't be trusted.

  32. Re:Where does Snowden get all this information fro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I understand it, the bulk of data he nicked was so huge and complicated that its taking this long to decipher what it means. That and journalist will be releasing it piecemeal to keep putting food on the table.

  33. Re:NSA... what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Theoretically the NSA does have an office that does that. The OIG. In reality of course its the same as the police oversight ineffective. https://www.nsa.gov/about/oig/

  34. What about computers? by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    Is there any way to know if the NSA has backdoored our processors, BIOS, operating system, drivers, etc?

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:What about computers? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Processors seem unlikely, BIOS seems like a target you can hit later (anything that can be flashed and has proprietary reasons why it's secure, is utterly insecure) so probably clean out of the factory, Windows seems likely the others seem less likely, drivers are very plausible because there's a million of them and not much oversight...

      I mean, it's hard to guess. We might get more info later, but so far everything hardware has played by some set of rules- aka, nothing leaked implies that your machines ship in a state to spy on you, merely that with targeted malware you could be monitored if you were some kind of target. Doing that is pretty literally their job.

    2. Re:What about computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought there was some thought that they had messed with the RNG that's included on a brand of SSL coprocessors that are widely used.

    3. Re:What about computers? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      They messed with an algorithm for generating pseudo-random numbers ;

      Schneir's article

      TLDR : the suspicion is that they embedded a secret key in the maths of this random number generator algorithm that would let them break any TLS connection after snooping 32 bytes of traffic.

      As Bruce takes pains to point out, you can't prove anything. But really, they were pushing an RNG with no obvious advantage over the others in the running (3x slower), known flaws (slight bias in it's output), and this great big whopping potential security hole that you might conveniently exploit if you were the one who picked the "random numbers" in the appendix.

  35. Re:Where does Snowden get all this information fro by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Informative

    Re "If he was sitting on this information, then why wait so long to release it? "
    All the material is now in the hands of the press. The press can release the material in any way it wants or needs to.
    Re "Could someone explain where Edward Snowden is getting these kind of leaks and infos from, so long after he fled the NSA?"
    The material released by the press is long term generational projects staff get read into as they need to work on the same projects or with staff who do.
    Re the how http://www.bbc.com/news/world-... "Edward Snowden: I was a high-tech spy for the CIA and NSA" (28 May 2014)
    "...he said he had worked for the CIA and NSA undercover, overseas, and lectured at the Defense Intelligence Agency."

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  36. They send the ACTUAL keys? REALLY? by zelbinion · · Score: 1

    I had no idea that the personalization venders send the actual encryption keys to their customers. This is so very very wrong. That's not how you are supposed to do it.

    The correct way is to generate the master keys (separate sets of keys for each customer) inside an HSM (hardware security module). The HSM protects the master keys from being stolen. You then split the key into parts, encode those parts on smart cards, and HAND DELIVER those smart cards to the customer (in this case cell phone carriers or banks) with several different people, each with a piece of the key encoded on the smart card, but who do not know the pin to extract that key, and then you restore the master keys into an HSM located at the customer with aid of additional employees who know the pins but don't have the cards until everyone meets in front of the HSM as a group. Once the keys are restored, you erase the smart cards there on the spot. At no time does any one person have access to the master key. At no time is the master key (encrypted or not) ever available on any computer anywhere for any length of time. Never ever ever.

    Once both the personalization vender and the customer have a copy of the master keys, you can then derive the keys that you actually write into the SIM cards. Then, the only thing you need to transmit is the meta data used to generate the keys. This information can be sent in the clear over the internet all day long. Without the master key, the information is all but useless. The customer, once they have the meta data and the master key in their HSM, can re-derive the necessary keys whenever they need to, but usually this is not necessary (and not advised) -- all you need to do is perform a handshake with the SIM card by encrypting some data with the key stored in the card, and the information needed to reproduce that encrypted data. The carrier's HSM can then derive the same value inside their HSM to validate the SIM card. The keys, not even the key inside the SIM card is ever transmitted, stored, or is allowed to exist outside the HSM at any time, other than inside the SIM card itself. This would give NSA no opportunity to steal them.

    Sending the actual keys written into the SIM cards over the internet? Really? (sigh)

  37. Snowden fatigue by goodmanj · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This should either be the biggest news story on the planet, or the biggest lie of the year, but the public response seems to be "meh". The problem is, Snowden stole too much. Or claims to have stolen too much. There have been so *many* earthshattering Snowden revelations that both the outrage and the fact-checking seems to have evaporated.

    This is a big problem either way.

    1. Re:Snowden fatigue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, he just shoulda picked one thing and stuck with it.

      Do one thing and do it well.

    2. Re:Snowden fatigue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already had that with several previous leaks ... same apathy then

    3. Re:Snowden fatigue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snowden fatigue? Yeah right.

      Remember this is /.

      Most people I know young and old can barely operate an iPhone, which isn't saying much because my 57 year old father can barely use his iPhone too.

      Snowden Fatigue exists only among those who actually understand the technical details what was released if at all. Most people don't understand what the Snowden releases mean beyond the government is doing a bad thing.

      It is quite literally information overload, but I argue not entirely just fatigue.

  38. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not shocked, we have seen evidence of things like this for some time, I have good news for people though, I have developed a solution that negates their sim card (and baseband) compromise completely, while still being able to roam cellular networks and I will be bringing it to market now.

  39. Re:I think people do not understand how deep it is by manu0601 · · Score: 4, Informative

    But on a smart card, asymmetric cryptography can be used. The private key is generated by the chip on user request. It is not supposed to leak outside of the device.

    As I understand, this SIM debacle is only possible because the cryptography used here is symmetric, which means the telephone operator must have a copy of the SIM key.

  40. Article thinks TLS is secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They think TLS is secure, but the NSA has long stripped TLS from Google's secure comms and added its own. That was how they ran fake Google websites to intercept the data.

    From the article: "The only effective way for individuals to protect themselves from Ki theft-enabled surveillance is to use secure communications software, rather than relying on SIM card-based security. Secure software includes email and other apps that use Transport Layer Security (TLS), the mechanism underlying the secure HTTPS web protocol. The email clients included with Android phones and iPhones support TLS, as do large email providers like Yahoo and Google."

    Here's a link to the slide showing they add and remove SSL (TLS over https):
    http://www.itnews.com.au/News/362533,nsa-captures-google-yahoo-traffic-in-real-time-snowden-docs.aspx

    The problem with TLS is it hands trust for a site over to a third party certification company, and those companies are NSA collaborators and can certify false certificates.

    They need to use PGP or hand courier them. Also its clear that Gemalto has internet connected systems for delivering the keys, it should have air-gapped machines for generating the keys and a physical delivery. Deliver keys by FTP?? That has to stop.

  41. The secret is in the message ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... and the message is that the NSA is omnipotent and stupid at the same time.

    They make a good scapegoat, though.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  42. Re: A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, he's not.

  43. Okay, Apple ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Time to build "Silent Phone" into all iPhones.

  44. Re:Any chance of clarification... by Sabriel · · Score: 2

    That's a valid question. I'll try to answer it. Yes, neither act is "theft" in the jargon of the law. But you're asking why people (who aren't lawyers) are treating one as theft and not the other.

    One answer is that "we" (generally) don't feel that there is any strong societal contract with the TV/movie corps, so there's little or no "trust" for the pirates to steal (from that social contract). On the other hand "we" do very much feel that there is - or at least should be - a strong societal contract with the government that purportedly represents us. So any hypocritical action taken by the government feels like a betrayal, a "theft of trust" from us.

    Another answer is "nobody likes a hypocrite, and they like him even less when he punishes others for doing what he does". For an analogy: your coworker loves to quote scripture, but helps themself to the office stationery; your boss loves to quote company policy and fired your coworker, but helps themself to the office pension plan; your senator loves to quote the constitution but voted for free speech zones and civil forfeiture laws before taking a revolving door VP position at your company and fired your boss only to outsource half of your department and walk away even richer when what was left collapsed. Which of these three would you consider assholes, and which would you consider the worst?

  45. What can we do? by wasteoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Aside from the feckless fist-shaking at the air, what can the average person really do? Public-key encryption? That gets mentioned every time, and the general consensus is that it's too much work for the average person. Is there any other action that can be taken, or are people just too lazy to care anymore? Maybe there should be more purposeful acts to disrupt the lives of average citizens, to shake them out of their stupor. Wake people up. Perhaps those in power have realized that keeping the populace happy & sedated allows them to do whatever they want. Maybe a full belly and a scratch behind the ears is all we need to become pets to the people running the world now.

    1. Re:What can we do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Public-key encryption? That gets mentioned every time, and the general consensus is that it's too much work for the average person.

      And pointless. Why encrypt your message when they've got access to your encryption keys via the OS (compromised with a national security letter)? It's just too easy.

      I'm an IT person; I'm quite familiar with encryption tools and can easily encrypt anything I want. I would if I thought it made any signifficant difference. However I, a specialist in the IT field, have had to give up. The general population has no hope.

  46. That depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Only congress can declare war, and it can be argued that at some point there is barely a difference between a declaration of war by an act of agression and what the NSA and GCHQ is doing.

  47. What systems did they use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What way NSA and the like got access into Gemalto's systems? What systems were compromised by them? Was it the Desktop machines and/or Workstations.?
    What OS was running on them? I'm affraid that is was MS Windows. If you use these in such an environment you are asking for trouble.

  48. Re:I think people do not understand how deep it is by hraponssi · · Score: 1

    But on a smart card, asymmetric cryptography can be used. The private key is generated by the chip on user request. It is not supposed to leak outside of the device.

    It is not supposed to leak outside, and generally there is also no reason to have the private key outside the chip. The use cases are different. So in most cases there should be no (intended) way to get the keys from the chip anyway. And at no point should they have been stored anywhere, by Gemalto or anyone. If talking about secure elements such as TPM and not SIM cards that is..

  49. Re:I think people do not understand how deep it is by kevinbr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Gemalto generate a master SIM key with batches of cards shipped to each Mobile Operator. I work on a project for mobile payments, mediated with a STK loaded on each card. A HSM is loaded with all the master keys. If you have the master key, you can decrypt all the communications with the STK app on the SIM card. If the Master key leaks, all payment operations/transactions are fucked.

  50. Re:I think people do not understand how deep it is by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that surprised me a bit.

    If you replaced the symmetric key with a genuine private-key smartcard and registering on the network involved a proper negotiation and establishment of an ephemeral session key, things would be a lot more secure.

    Oh, and more expensive, 'natch, which is why it's not designed like that - stupid legacy tech.

  51. Hitchens Razor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Russia had and has no right to Crimea or the Ukraine"

    A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    "Iraq WMDs: I remind you that Saddam believed he had WMDs."

    Wow. Wattanidiot. No, this is why he let Hans Blix and the UN team in: he claimed he didn't have WMDs since the ones he HAD BEEN GIVEN BY THE USA had been destroyed either by time or a result of agreement to destroy them.

    Given the above atrocities of rationality, your whine about the parent poster "This is such a warped, confused view of history it's hard to know where to start." is vapourised and dead in the water.

    1. Re:Hitchens Razor by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, including Crimea. As for Saddam, you can read all about it in the Chilcot report when it comes out. I can wait.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
  52. Explain the outrage for NK hackers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or Chinese hackers of USA systems and the military posturing of the USA against them and the exhortations for the world community to punish them for hacking.

    Explain how you managed to justify invading Iraq and removing the sovereign ruler of that country for committing no crime (since Saddam gets to say what's a crime in his country) but something considered criminal if he'd done it to Americans.

    You can't, except by a whitewash answer: It's OK when WE do it!

  53. This info is for us, not the average pleb by afxgrin · · Score: 2

    Considering this audience is pretty much the only one that understands the implications behind these revelations. WE should be the ones raising the issues and getting in the government's face about this, but technologists are notoriously passive when it comes to protesting the government. With that in mind, there's not too much _I_ can do as a Canadian to protest the NSA/GCHQ, but there's definitely the CSE who are one of the "5 eyes" members.

    However the easiest response to mass surveillance is mass encryption, and that doesn't involve standing outside for hours shouting at people who couldn't care less or trying to educate the average person about why this isn't just part of the fight on 'terrorism' but it's a direct assault on all of us. Obviously the entire cell phone network design will need an overhaul after these keys have been leaked, and hopefully the overhaul uses better techniques.

  54. Re:Where does Snowden get all this information fro by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

    Snowden hasn't had any access to the NSA since he fled to Hong Kong.

    However, the amazing thing about this dude is he was able to do full blown web crawls of the entire NSA and GCHQ intranets, including dumps/crawls of data he didn't have access to .... all without getting noticed or caught. He appears to have provided the journalists with what is quite literally a snapshot of their internal networks at the time he was operating. It's taking them years to go through it.

  55. Re:Gemalto also delivers eID... by fonske · · Score: 1

    ...and SIS (Belgium) card encryption that allow access to medical information.

    First day of using my Jolla, my provider installed a "convenient" app for me, without letting me know, to do moneytransactions with my smartphone (called "proximenu") along with some other interesting features...my wife now understands why I never use it and why I was so angry that apps are installed when I didn't ask for them.

  56. Re: A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh yes he is

  57. If you've nothing to hide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well I've nothing to hide now, you've took it all!

  58. Re: A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, he is

  59. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually it is surprising. Many if not most large government IT projects are appallingly run. Vast amounts of money wasted on useless consultants that end up producing very little if anything at all.

    As the NSA's budget grows and grows, I suspect this will happen to them. Lots of MBAs that can only organize their own careers, while the crypto-nerds are pushed into the background.

    Like a lot of modern practices, consulting is 50% useless and 50% mind-blowing. The problem is you don't know which you are going to get when you go in.

  60. Spies do spying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So...spies are known to engage in spying. That should hardly be headline news. What certainly shouldn't be headline news is disclosure of how they do it.

    Here's something to ponder....earlier this week, someone was found guilty for conspiring to behead a British soldier. How did the authorities find out about his conspiracy and bring him to justice? By gathering intelligence and building a case against him. The same goes for all of the terrorism suspects that the security services have their eye and ears on.

    Let's say for a minute that the authorities didn't have the means to keep track of villains like this....some innocent guy gets attacked and his severed head paraded around. Would you want to be the one to say to his loved ones, "yeah...he got brutally hacked to death in the street just because he wanted to serve his country, but at least the spying agencies aren't doing any spying"?

    Get real...the world is in a s**t state, and that means stuff has to get done to try and make it less s**t.

    (yes - this is a straight copy/paste of the comment I posted to a similar article on The Register)

  61. Re:Where does Snowden get all this information fro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or he could just be making stuff up

  62. Encryption Castle by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Cell phone SIMs are the "Encryption Castle", really? From a practical perspective, they are essentially plaintext, since everything gets fully decrypted at each hop.

    Maybe I will start calling my previous car a "Dining Palace" in honor of the epic glorious time that I once ate a chili dog while driving, shifting and making a left turn (alas, this was before I had a cell phone) without getting any chili on my shirt.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  63. Re:A big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They approach everyone they are interested in, imbecile. Pool is small, money bin large. This isn't hard to understand.

  64. I care too. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    at least try to improve things.

    I think you might give me at least a little credit on that score if you were familiar my writing, research and other offerings.

    Maybe ask the government to grant snowden clemency? Nah. Why exert the effort to click an online petition when it is so much easier to just bitch about how hopeless things are?

    I am signatory.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  65. If I may by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    I believe what the poster might have been trying to imply was that your anonymous post does not carry the same weight as if you were willing to put your online identity on your words. You'll note that the very petition you refer to requires your name and your email in order to be counted a valid signature. Pretty much the same mindset.

    "Some random, unidentified dude supports Snowden" just doesn't have the same impact as "Mergatroid McFutter, AKA mergatroid@mcfutter.com, supports Snowden."

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:If I may by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except I am not the one that made the post about the Snowden petition; I was just blown away by lack of sense the reply made. And even in the context you postulate, it still makes zero sense since being AC here has no bearing elsewhere.

      "Some random, unidentified dude supports Snowden" just doesn't have the same impact as "Mergatroid McFutter, AKA mergatroid@mcfutter.com, supports Snowden."

      But a random pseudonym suddenly makes everything okay. That makes even less sense.

    2. Re:If I may by Mergatroid+McFutter · · Score: 1

      But a random pseudonym suddenly makes everything okay. That makes even less sense.

      No, that other guy was right. I can feel the power!

      Now I can be not judged by the color of my skin, but the content of my character. Wait, I needed to change my skin color to get that privilege. Well, shit.

    3. Re:If I may by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Dude! Glad to have you on-board. :)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  66. Why now? by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Anyone else out there curious why we're just hearing about this? Snowden stuff hit a long time ago? Just saving it for a snowed in day or something? What else do we not know that he has?