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Microsoft's Goals For Their New Web Rendering Engine
An anonymous reader writes: Microsoft has put up a post about explaining what they wanted to accomplish when they started working on Project Spartan, the new web browser that will ship with Windows 10. They say some things you wouldn't expect to hear from Microsoft: "We needed a plan to make it easy for Web developers to build compatible sites regardless of which browser they develop first for. We needed a plan which ensured that our customers have a good experience regardless of whether they browse the head or tail of the Web. We needed a plan which gave enterprise customers a highly backward compatible browser regardless of how quickly we pushed forward with modern HTML5 features." They also explain how they decided against using WebKit so they wouldn't contribute to "a monoculture on the Web."
I got a goal for you: Make it not an insecure steaming piece of shit!
Sounds like a good plan... a lot of people use sites like Tinder and Grindr to find both head and tail.
Koans and fables for the software engineer
You mean like Internet Explorer used to be?
All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
> "We needed a plan to make it easy for Web developers to build compatible sites regardless of which browser they develop first for."
Can you even IMAGINE Microsoft saying that 15 years ago? 10 years ago? So is it because they are a better company now before... or is it just because they have no choice but to cooperate (since people left IE in droves for Firefox, Opera, and Chrome)?
>" They also explain how they decided against using WebKit so they wouldn't contribute to "a monoculture on the Web."
Oh right.... because Microsoft would never want to support a monoculture... Hmm... I need to go find some Twilight Zone episodes to watch, now.
And you should too.
... contribute to a monoculture by avoiding WebKit. Just so long as this isn't just going to be another form of developer lock-in. (Which I suspect it will be.)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Really? Why not? Microsoft has been moving in this direction for quite some time now, not matter what the haters on /. like to insist.
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. We are back to the embrace mode. Sure, I'd trust Microsoft completely. But why not contribute code to existing open source projects? What's the benefit in writing commodity software? There's got to be something in it for them down the road. To steer the direction of the web in their direction somehow. If Microsoft announced they'd be now contributing to Firefox or any other popular open source project then I'll trust them again. Look at what Google is doing with Chrome. They are beginning to leverage their other services to steer people to Chrome by only developing to Chrome instead of open standards. It's a feedback loop to steer people to their browser, then offer services through the browser that are Google specific. It's all for your data people. They realized long ago that data is a moneymaker and the best way to get it is directly to the source.
To be fair, at the time MS adopted the CRLF line ending style there were *four* standards, none of them dominant:
CR, LF, CRLF, and LFCR (called NLCR..new line carriage return). They picked one existing standard, and Unix was already using another. The supporters of the other standards have died off, so there are only two standards left.
So don't blame MS for all the bad decisions. Only some of them. I still wouldn't want to use their software, though. Perhaps if they live up to their current "We love FOSS" line for a decade or so I'll change my mind, but currently it just feels like their latest lie.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Using the name Spartan really shows off their worldview - the embattled good guys who are the best at what they do.
In this analogy, Apple is the Covenant (religious zealots) and Linux is the Flood.
What substantive actions can you point to that don't run purely on their platform? (Promises and PR statements don't count.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Just like with their phones, tablets and bing, they should have learned there isn't much demand for a 3rd or 4th place product. People who like Chrome will stick with it, people who like Firefox will stick with it. They may get a few people who switch from IE to this, but many of them will just keep using the newest version of IE. In the end, I won't use it or put it on any of our workplace computers. Any browser by microsoft will be tied to closely to the operating system, keeping the doorway unlocked for viruses.
If I see a One-drive button you're dead! (disclaimer : not a real death threat)
I LOL'd but sad this new Internet you have to be sure how it's to be taken.
I think this is because in the olden days having CRLF meant being able to dump a raw text file to a printing device. Unix had a tty driver that could handle adding the missing CR. CP/M and DOS didn't have any such thing. That doesn't mean I haven't spent 20+ years being annoyed by CRLF though.
This program was made possible by a grant from the Ultra-Humanite, and viewers like you.
Not hate, just total distrust in a company that pulled the same scam many times.
To be fair, other companies do the same thing. Red Hat is doing the same thing with systemd.
I'm using Word, Excel and Power Point on my android device with seamless switching between working on files on my desktop and on my tablet.
Your move.
Standards compliance.
Seriously, all the solutions to those plans have been staring them in the face for 20 years. Ironically, MS's own desire for a monoculture on the web prevented them from seeing that.
I think this is because in the olden days having CRLF meant being able to dump a raw text file to a printing device. Unix had a tty driver that could handle adding the missing CR. CP/M and DOS didn't have any such thing. That doesn't mean I haven't spent 20+ years being annoyed by CRLF though.
That's not it, CRLF was a feature. How do you make strike-through text on a type-wheel printer? It automatically advances to the next position and it only has a fixed number of characters, you don't double it with strikethrough-a in addition to regular a. So you send a CR - carriage return - to return to first position, space your way over to the text to be striked out and make a ------- over it before you CRLF to the next line. And you have no idea how old knowing that makes me feel.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
we are running a full Application in MS Azure built on FOSS software. Fully supported by the Azure team (not app of course, but all the infrastructure bits).
Plus we now have Office on Android and iOS
I'm sure there is still some culture of embrace, extend, extinguish within Microsoft. I'm sure some in the business products group still feel like they have no competition and they can treat customers as poorly as they wish. However, the worst elements of Microsoft's culture were rooted in their monopoly, the fact that they could do whatever they wanted and customers would still buy from them. Today, the MAJORITY of hardware purchased runs Android, not Windows. I think Microsoft has taken that fact to heart in some ways.
In history, the Spartans were the despotic enemies of democracy who constantly tried to defeat Athens. They could have stopped the Persians at the sea crossing, but delayed because they had a religious festival and finally sent a tiny troop to Thermopylae (too little too late). Those troops did acquit themselves well, but Greece would have been overrun if the Athenians hadn't brought up their army and crushed the Persians.
So yeah, an appropriate name for Microsoft (and for people who know movies but not history).
"the head or tail of the Web"? What the file system check is that?
...wasn't it? I've sort of lost track, but I think Microsoft has made precisely this claim for every browser. Yes, here we go:
" That's your vision for IE7, to definitely support Web standards?
Chris: Absolutely, in IE7 we really are trying to support Web standards. Even at the expense of more backwards compatibility..."
Then much the same thing was said of IE8,
and then we read that
"I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised to read this post on el reg that highlights that IE9 is currently the most standards compliant beta browser on the block. Iâ(TM)m really proud of the work the IE9 team is doing to nail the the things that were previously levelled at Internet Explorer for being a 'bad browser.'"
It's the same every time. They acknowledge that the previous browser wasn't standards-compliant after all, and promise the one they are now working on is.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
They always say this now, and their browser is always shit. Its more than safe to expect it to suck.
To be fair, it's gotten better and better. It's to the point now where I don't dread having to use it to download firefox.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
My CGA display did strike through in the same fashion. It OR'ed the character bitmap into the pixel raster. Of course, this also worked in MCGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA, etc.
I've been using a "GUI" since before DOS was MSd.
CR was also useful for double-printing. When you ribbon was worn out you could just rewind it and re-use it, but have the printer overwrite every line so each character was printed twice, giving you about 80% as much ink as a new ribbon would provide.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
--- 'Pain heals, chicks dig scars... glory... lasts for ever!' -- "Footstep" Falco
We have seen some suprises leaning towards the positive side from MS lately, no doubt. I'll admit that. However, MS has screwed up so much, so often, for so long that I'm weary of taking their word for it when it comes to enabling a more hassle free web.
If MS offers a relyably usable web frontend I at least will stop recommending *against* MS with my customers. In my opinion it would be smart for them to focus on openess and professional services with native software as a fallback for the heavy lifting. Their Azure thing seems to play in that direction. I'm wondering if MS can pull it all together with their new management. We'll see.
Until then, they can talk all they want. It will take some time before I see MS as a relyable player in my field again.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The Web is in the mess it now is because Microsoft (and, to a lesser extent, Netscape, back in the day) has gone through so many iterations of deliberately trying to create subtly incompatible variants of HTML. Creating a browser which is backwards compatible with that mess simply perpetuates the mess. The new browser should simply refuse to render non-conforming legacy pages at all - that would force web site owners to clean up their act in short order.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
Well said, excellent comment. Just a correction. CR LF (Windows), LF (Unix) and CR (Macintosh) so there are still 3. Also 0x00 is still used for lots of mainframe data for end of line though that gets a bit more tricky since the underlying concept of file doesn't map as well.
As CRLF was most common on teletypes.
Microsoft rebranding themselves as the Spartans after being the Morganites for so many years seems weird. Linux would probably be the Gaians, BSD the University, and Apple the Believers.
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
Don't feel old, Brother still sells brand new typewriters on Amazon.
-- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
Because most offices will only allow IE and nothing else. Especially older versions. My office uses IE 8.
Do none of you realize the Halo reference? Cortana is their phone assistant.
Get out of there and fast!!!
30 years ago (1998)
Are these dog years?
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
That's all very nice, but MS is a software company. I'll admit I was thinking of cross-platform development environments, like their announced open source .NET, about which I know little, and I don't really count stuff they sell as end products. I will acknowledge that this is bias on my part.
OTOH, ... you actually use those things on a tablet? As other than file viewers? (You didn't say you did, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.)
That said, if I'd been thinking of consumer end-products I'd never have made that statement. MSOffice for Apple has been out for ages...and MSWord 5.2a for the Mac was the best word processor I've ever used. Far superior to any later versions, and it fixed a lot of bugs from the previous versions. These days it wouldn't be so good as, of course, it didn't handle unicode, but that's still the only improvement that I know about.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Only if your view of MS is stuck in the aera of Halloween-Documents. They are doing pretty great work regarding openness and interoperability esp. since Satya took over.
That sign in at a Google search screen bothers me, at which point is one going to be required to use it.
Last time I checked (which was today), creating a Gmail account required a mobile phone number. So for someone buying a mobile phone in order to have a mobile phone number in order to create a Google account, where is one supposed to search for reviews of mobile phones? If a different web search engine, then why not just stick with that instead of using Google Search?
So why over the past decade and a half hasn't Microsoft added additional support in Windows Notepad for LF, on which every other major platform has since standardized?
In both cases it was listed as the most recent IE for Win7 - still just one click to infect all the users network drives.
I think I'm correct in stating that HTTP headers... or maybe email headers... or both, need CRLF endings, which seemed surprising to me. Not sure what the historical reasoning for that is.
Still, I think the main thing we should all be happy about is that MS didn't decide to create a new ASCII escape code called X-CRLF or something!