Hertz Puts Cameras In Its Rental Cars, Says It Has No Plans To Use Them

schwit1 writes Hertz has added a camera to many of its newer cars that uses the "NeverLost" navigational device. So why is Hertz creeping out customers with cameras it's not using? "Hertz added the camera as a feature of the NeverLost 6 in the event it was decided, in the future, to activate live agent connectivity to customers by video. In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)," Hertz spokesperson Evelin Imperatrice explained. "The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."

Comments

Why don't i believe them

[Anonymous Coward]

"The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."

So we're to believe hertz put the cameras there for no reason other than to hurt their business by scaring away customers, because may be someday they may want them?

Re:Why don't i believe them

[meerling]

And at a huge cost. There's no way they did that without planning on using them for something, and that something wouldn't be a vague might happen kind of thing either, but a concrete we "need" this from the higher ups.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Anonymous Coward]

"The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."

So we're to believe hertz put the cameras there for no reason other than to hurt their business by scaring away customers, because may be someday they may want them?

I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that their hardware manufacturer has been marching forward and may have added the camera to the "latest" model and Hertz is just buying the hardware off the shelf from them. The camera may have some prospective future use which has not been fully defined, but the main reason it's there is it came with the off the shelf hardware. Getting something without a camera may now be more expensive, at least something with the other features they want/need like more memory, better CPU's and more storage.

Custom hardware is insanely expensive to develop and it's way cheaper to go off the shelf in most cases and if the off the shelf offering has a camera, you get a camera. It's not like Hertz is buying these things by the tens of thousands, but likely only a few hundred a month in specific high volume markets to replace older and ailing units as they come out of service.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one lost my blind trust of the american corporation years ago. but good for you its nice to see some haven't

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

That was my initial thought. Hertz isn't a TLA government agency, so why the conspiracy theories from everyone? Glad to see some people here still have a level head.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a conspiracy to be put off by someone installing a camera in a space that one typically expects a degree of privacy.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Gr8Apes]

Well, considering Samsung's cameras on TVs pretty much give Orwellian access to anyone stupid enough to hook their TV to the internet, along with several other pieces of info about cameras, such as on phones or computers being used without their users' awareness, I'd say you're lacking a level head if you didn't think "conspiracy" the moment you see a camera in an unexpected place.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

Here's the difference between businesses and TLAs, though: A business will tell you about the features it is offering, the TLAs will deny they're doing anything at all. Samsung made it clear they put cameras in those sets, and that those cameras (and microphones) were used to control the TV by means of transmitting recorded data to a third-party server for processing. There's no conspiracy there, they told you as much when you bought it (whether you listened or not is another issue). Plus, as you said, the cameras are obviously visible. Hertz's cameras are likewise, and they say they're not using them (yet), which I tend to believe; they have to know that a lie today will be found out tomorrow and I don't think they're that stupid.

The only instances I recall of a company lying about surveillance have involved them behaving in an entirely covert, non-obvious (am I being redundant, here?), manner, with the idea that, by drawing no attention, they would not be found out. This is the antithesis of that. I'll let you put that together for yourself.

What's the quickest way to go out of business today? Tell customers you're not spying on them, then spy on them anyway. People are very much apathetic when it comes to security (a-la "oops, we didn't realize the data we told you we were collecting and sending over the internet could be read by anyone), but not so much when it comes to targeted surveillance of themselves and their families, so lying about this at this juncture would would be Hertz's death knell.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[ShanghaiBill]

There's no way they did that without planning on using them for something, and that something wouldn't be a vague might happen kind of thing either, but a concrete we "need" this from the higher ups.

Have you ever attended a meeting? One where decisions were made? Why do you think that Hertz is less dysfunctional at planning and making logical and well thought out decisions than your organization?

Re:Why don't i believe them

[kheldan]

Just put a piece of electrical tape over the goddamned thing if and when you have to rent a car from them and forget about it.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[LifesABeach]

I'm thinking along the line of thought that there are people that want to be photo graphed, when they are lost? Is this some new kind of social media, one that caters to folks in unfavorable events then displays the victims reactions on YouTube or what ever?

Re:Why don't i believe them

[MitchDev]

If the cameras are even in use, sounds more like something for car thieves to steal and the car renter to be on the hook for (or their insurance company...)

Re:Why don't i believe them

[MitchDev]

should be "if the cameras aren't yet even in use"

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Coren22]

Using electrical tape is much less likely to get you arrested for vandalism.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[bluefoxlucid]

They could have considered a future business opportunity at a cost of some dollars per car, versus the cost of missing the opportunity, versus the cost of a future retrofit, and decided to exploit the opportunity. Opportunities are risks, and are handled accordingly.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[bluefoxlucid]

When planning a project or choosing a strategy, risk must be assessed. Risks come as both threats and opportunities.

You can handle a threat in many ways: Avoid, by taking actions which do not allow for that particular risk; Mitigate, by taking actions which minimize the probability or severity of the risk; Transfer, by purchasing insurance to cover the risk; or Accept, by budgeting for the risk. You can similarly handle an opportunity: Exploit, by taking actions to 100% guarantee that particular risk will occur; Enhance, by taking actions to increase the probability that the risk will occur; Share, by taking actions with a third-party that increase probability of the risk occurring, but share the benefit with another party (lottery pool); or Accept, by doing nothing and hoping it happens.

With many plans on the table, you often have to select which risks to accept in exchange for opportunities to enhance. Adding extra, unused hardware for a possible future strategy can save you from missing out on that strategy, or from higher expenses to add the hardware later.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[currently_awake]

You are suggesting the car makers build custom cars for the rental company. It's more likely a theft deterant system, combined with a way to prove who stole/vandalized their car.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[ShanghaiBill]

When planning a project or choosing a strategy, risk must be assessed. Risks come as both threats and opportunities.

I am sure that this is what they teach in MBA programs. It has little to do with how real people make decisions in real organizations. I doubt if the cameras are part of a vast conspiracy. It is far more likely that someone came up with the idea for no particular reason, and while others thought it was hare brained, they went along with it to avoid losing support in some other idiotic bike shed argument.

For some reason people accept that their own team or small department can be dysfunctional at decision making, and do things that seem inexplicable in hindsight, but somehow as organizations get bigger and bigger they magically figure out how to be competent. But only the consequences go up, not the competence. Read The Guns of August for an account of how, a century ago, incompetence, hasty decisions, petty feuds, and gross misunderstandings, led to the deaths of millions. For another example, look at the decisions that led up to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Big organizations are not good at making decisions.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

It certainly does not. Perhaps you should read what you quoted?

In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)

What's your point, AC?

Re:Why don't i believe them

[bluefoxlucid]

I am sure that this is what they teach in MBA programs. It has little to do with how real people make decisions in real organizations.

What are you talking about? I don't have an MBA, dropped out of college for CompSci because I was working as a computer security engineer, and I make decisions like that in real organizations. People don't listen to me, million-dollar problems happen, I continuously grind on them for not listening to me when I warned them, and they eventually get it through their heads that they shouldn't just do whatever the hell seems cool at the time.

but somehow as organizations get bigger and bigger they magically figure out how to be competent.

No, this is why we have project management, and project managers who are supposed to decide how much red tape to use. Big organizations often transition from not enough red tape to too much red tape; it takes a heroic amount of discipline to do it right, and most of the big organizations are applying the thinking I've outlined to excess.

In Europe, the sort of risk management I've described is present at every level in an organization; while in the United States, it's a management problem. Most US businesses have a Chief Risk Officer and a Project Management Office, making up the Executive-level risk management (business strategy: we must spend money on things that provide no return other than minimizing our threats and maximizing our market opportunities, even if they seem pointless) and project-level risk management (execution of business strategy: things to do and not do, and how to do it, to accomplish what the business has decided to do). European businesses also push risk management down through all levels of management, and solicit the advice of engineer-level employees for input data into the risk management process.

For an example of businesses who didn't properly execute risk management, see Barrings Bank, who were told to not allow traders to oversee themselves (they had a trade manager acting as a trader with responsibility to himself), and ignored this as a risk, and then were sold for a dollar (billions of dollars of hidden losses were discovered in an audit, and the bank became worthless); or Exxon, who designed a tanker spill response plan, but never put any of that shit in place, and then fumbled with the Exxon-Valdez spill for weeks. These are not just risk, but organizational mishandling (bad business process policies, bad project management, both of which heavily rely on risk management).

You assume big organizations just wander out, punt a football at a wall, and go with whatever project was written on the paper they knocked off. It doesn't work that way.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

Google tends to tell us when they do. As for Microsoft, I covered that when I said:

The only instances I recall of a company lying about surveillance have involved them behaving in an entirely covert, non-obvious (am I being redundant, here?), manner, with the idea that, by drawing no attention, they would not be found out.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

To be fair, Hertz isn't a government agency. Further, the government granted itself those abilities and never spelled out under what circumstances they would use them; meanwhile, Hertz explicitly stated:

Hertz added the camera as a feature of the NeverLost 6 in the event it was decided, in the future, to activate live agent connectivity to customers by video. In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)

In other words, "we don't plan to use this, but if we do at some point, which we may and we're being up front about that right now, the user would have to be the one to activate it". I choose not to be afraid of every grain of sand, so I'm gonna go ahead and believe them until they give me a reason not to.

That said, when you rent a car from Hertz, the rental agreement forbids pretty much anything you wouldn't want to be seen on camera doing, anyway; the car is their property and, honestly, I don't see what the huge fucking deal is if they choose to record video on their property to ensure that people are complying with the terms of the rental agreement. And, before anyone decides to draw parallels between renting a car and renting an apartment, rental homes have a special legal status such that, except as required to maintain the property, the landlord effectively cedes all ownership and access rights for the duration of your rental period. This is not the case with a car or, really, any other item.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Miguelito]

My suggestion to the owner of the "Smart" TV was to get a Roku, Amazon Fire or some other stand alone device and ignore the TV's smart features.

Hah.. that's exactly what I've done. I have an AppleTV just because I've already got a pretty large iTunes library. When I wanted my current TV, I got a Samsung "Smart" one, only because it was the one of the size, quality and price I wanted. I played with the "smart" stuff for a few minutes, then basically never touched it again.

Damn good as a TV... beyond useless "Smart" features.

It's also go a camera with an attempted xbox kinect-like control features that (just like the rest of the "smart" stuff) was buggy at best. Thankfully said camera is a small module on the back that pops up and can be kept down so that it isn't on nor can actually see anything even if it were. I haven't popped it back up since the first days after I got the TV over a year ago.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Gr8Apes]

There was a minor difference between understood concepts in that TLA, camera connects to 3rd party service, e.g. "Skype", and being able to spy on you. It was offered for one purpose, then used for another, albeit similar in functionality, purpose. The fact that they were sending out information without the consumers knowledge or authorization is pretty much, hmmm, what would you call it?

Re:Why don't i believe them

[BronsCon]

Please check your post for clarity and try again. I'm sure you have a point, it's just nod discernible within that text.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[mjwx]

"The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."

So we're to believe hertz put the cameras there for no reason other than to hurt their business by scaring away customers, because may be someday they may want them?

On the flipside, this means I no longer need to worry about the hire car company coming up with bollocks charges against me for damaging the car or got a fine because their camera didn't capture any of it. Also if I'm in an accident it will clearly show who is at fault (and I'm confident enough of a driver to say it wont be mine), so they cant claim their excess until "the issue is resolved".

It may be a bit paranoid, but when I hire a car I use my own dash cam in it for these reasons.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[Gr8Apes]

I'll nod to you then :). The cameras and documentation with the TV I saw stated the camera could be used with 3rd party apps like Skype. The implication was it was fully under user control. We know now for a fact that is false thanks to the Samsung debacle. Not that I needed any further warning that such a thing was a "bad idea", yeah, let's put a TV with a camera in the living room, the bedroom, heck, the kids bedrooms, and the bathrooms too!!!! No problems there, right? Somethings just shouldn't have cameras. TVs, thanks to Orwell's foreshadowing, are in that group.

Re:Why don't i believe them

[lsatenstein]

And at a huge cost. There's no way they did that without planning on using them for something, and that something wouldn't be a vague might happen kind of thing either, but a concrete we "need" this from the higher ups.

Would that use be an individual doing exercise in the back seat with his mistress?

Duct tape

[Peter Simpson]

The Handyman's Secret Weapon.

Re:Duct tape

[itzly]

Or get a banana with a sticker on it. Eat the banana, and put the sticker over the camera.

Re:Duct tape

[funwithBSD]

I use regular cellophane tape. It is opaque enough to destroy the image, clear enough not to be exactly sure why. Looks like a heavy smudge of grease/oil, like you touched it while eating fries or something.

Re:Duct tape

[prattle]

What do you do about the microphone?

Re:Duct tape

[Carewolf]

I use regular cellophane tape. It is opaque enough to destroy the image, clear enough not to be exactly sure why. Looks like a heavy smudge of grease/oil, like you touched it while eating fries or something.

Just remember to remove it before starting a video conference, otherwise the rest of the participants will start complaining about a poor connection.

Re:Duct tape

[OzPeter]

The Handyman's Secret Weapon.

And korean gangsta rap fixes the audio

Yes .. it exists IZ "Roll Wit a Gangsta"

Re:Duct tape

[Anubis IV]

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: Duct tape

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn up the stereo.

Re:Duct tape

[Anonymous Coward]

Realize you have no control over it. You don't know where "the" microphone is, whether it is active, nor how many there are. And you never will.

Re:Duct tape

[serviscope_minor]

But I don't like bananas :(

Re:Duct tape

[Thanshin]

But I don't like bananas :(

Well. Tough luck. To be a privacy conscious person, one has to eat bananas.

Re:Duct tape

[Greyfox]

Just leave it in the glove box for the next customer.

Re:Duct tape

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

What do you do about the microphone?

Legislate.

Re:Duct tape

[Jason Levine]

If you've got nothing to hide using bananas, you've got nothing to fear?

Re:Duct tape

[disposable60]

Orange you glad Sunkist citrus products have stickers, then?

Re:Duct tape

[MitchDev]

Wrap aluminum foil around the camera

Re:Duct tape

[itzly]

Just to be sure, better to wrap the whole car in aluminium foil.

Re:Duct tape

[MitchDev]

or put a picture from another car of all the passengers and the driver with their hands in the air screaming in terror in front of the lens....

Re:Duct tape

[Anubis IV]

Agreed.

Re:Duct tape

[aralin]

To rent a car from Hertz with camera in it, one has to BE bananas.

Re:Duct tape

[cascadingstylesheet]

Realize you have no control over it. You don't know where "the" microphone is, whether it is active, nor how many there are. And you never will.

That's always been true. It's not your car.

I'm not sure that the surest sign of nefarious monitoring is to ... install a visible camera and microphone.

Re:Duct tape

[mjwx]

But I don't like bananas :(

Well. Tough luck. To be a privacy conscious person, one has to eat bananas.

Plus its a good source of sodium... But it's also a source of radiation so a privacy minded person knows that helps the government track you.

Fight the power, eat nectarines.

Re:Duct tape

[mjwx]

What do you do about the microphone?

Iron Maiden, Metalica, Rise Against. Take your pick.

Telling you that the volume should be set to very loud is redundant. Metal should always be played at full volume.

Re:Duct tape

[MiSaunaSnob]

Nectarines?... they're the pits

No plans ...

[Archangel Michael]

You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.

Re:No plans ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Internet says Hertz keeps cars for an average of 18 months.
So installing these things only makes sense if they have plans to use them within that timeframe.

Re:No plans ...

[TheGratefulNet]

they said 'no CURRENT plans'.

isn't that enough wiggle room to create NEW plans, later?

what this will mean is that the 'field test' shows we are not passive enough to accept this surveillance. they'll try again in n+1 units of time and see if we've become more passive and are willing to tolerate it.

if that fails, there's always hiding mics and cameras inside the dash. I'm sure they have spent some time in boardrooms discussing exactly that, too.

Re:No plans ...

[Mr D from 63]

You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.

No necessarily true. If you are investing in hardware for a fleet, some future proofing can make sense even if you don't have a specific use in mind.

Re:No plans ...

[MightyMartian]

Hertz: "We have no plans to use the cameras!"

Consumers: "Thank goodness! We were worried!"

Hertz: "Well, shit, it looks like we've got a plan!"

Re:No plans ...

[jratcliffe]

These things can be (and are) removed from the cars and moved into new ones. It's not a permanent installation.

Re:No plans ...

[kogut]

The Internet says Hertz keeps cars for an average of 18 months.
So installing these things only makes sense if they have plans to use them within that timeframe.

I think they strip and re-use all the NeverLost equipment when they ditch a car. At least that stuff isn't sold when the cars are sold off.

Re:No plans ...

[jratcliffe]

The only thing we know is that they've been caught before they were in the wild.

Except they've been out there for at least a year, probably more.

Re:No plans ...

[moondo]

I, too, make decisions of which I have no plans to follow through upon. I can almost understand their thought process. And I have a feeling some of you do too.

But some of you guys sound like my wife who complains about my poor life decisions.

Well, little did she know that marrying her was one of the... worst... atrocities I averted because if i were to remain single i wouldn't have a lovely person to remind me of how stupid my decisions could be.

My point is sometimes you just do dumb shit without plans. And it hertz to admit it.

Re:No plans ...

[Anonymous Coward]

“We do not have adequate bandwidth capabilities to the car to support streaming video at this time,”

Notice that this doesn't mention *local* recording - say, a snapshot every 30 seconds or so. Then auto-upload via WiFi when the car returns to the agency. This might be very valuable for corporate marketing research, and to catch people doing things in the cars that their contract frowns on :-)

Re:No plans ...

[houghi]

In general I would agree. e.g. if you have some sort of socket, like USB, you might not have use for it now, but might want to use it for future use.

However a camera has an extremely limit use. It captures images. So if you buy a camera, you do it with the intend to capture images.

It might well be that they are not yet sure about the details. e.g. keep only the last 30 minutes, the last person who drove it, have it turned on and of depending if you take insurance or whatever, but the intend is clear: to take images.

A camera is not futureproofing.

Re:No plans ...

[Mr D from 63]

A camera is not futureproofing.

I bet the salesman had a different take on it.

Re:No plans ...

[bill_mcgonigle]

You don't do something unless you have plans to use it

I suppose if people start snipping the cables to the camera, Hertz will have trouble proving damages.

Re:No plans ...

[Nukenbar]

I bought a laptop with a forward facing camera that I never intend to use. It was just cheaper than getting a laptop that didn't have one.

The same can be said for any off the shelf hardware. Sometime you are just stuck with what they make.

Re:No plans ...

[drinkypoo]

Either they're using an off-the-shelf device and it would take a custom build to get it without the camera, or it barely cost them any more to get the camera so they included it before deciding whether they were going to bother with that feature. In the end they decided to skip it because they'd have to show you call center employees, and that was recognized as a terrible idea.

Re:No plans ...

[swillden]

You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.

I see you have little experience with decisionmaking in corporate America.

Re:No plans ...

[Chuckstar]

Of course it gives them wiggle room to make plans later. That's kind of their whole point.

When they do change their plans, though, they'll tell us what the new plan is, and we can decide whether or not we like it. If we don't like it, then we stop renting from Hertz. There are a half-dozen other national rental companies to choose from.

It just seems silly to get worked up today about some potential thing Hertz may or may not decide to do later. It doesn't make sense to punish them for what we imagine they might do in the future.

Re:No plans ...

[Chuckstar]

They do have a vague idea what they might use it for. They were pretty clear about that. They also said that they haven't done anything to implement their vague idea, except having the hardware in the device.

God I hate those neverlost things

[redmid17]

I've gotten a few rental cars from Hertz with the GPS devices. You can only turn the brightness down a bit. They cannot be turned off. I did notice the camera, so I just tossed my jacket over over it. I just request a car without that device now. Besides I have phone GPS which frankly is easier to use.

Re:God I hate those neverlost things

[Peter Simpson]

I've gotten a few rental cars from Hertz with the GPS devices. You can only turn the brightness down a bit. They cannot be turned off. I did notice the camera, so I just tossed my jacket over over it. I just request a car without that device now. Besides I have phone GPS which frankly is easier to use.

Seconded. I tried to use NeverLost once. UI was terrible, and the turn instructions were either late, or unclear, resulting in my getting...lost. Next rental, I had my Garmin with me. Worked like a charm.

Re:God I hate those neverlost things

[jratcliffe]

You can just turn them off. Button's on the side or top. Takes two seconds, although you do have to do it every time you start the car, which is kind of annoying.

Re: God I hate those neverlost things

[jo7hs2]

I came here to say just this...I had one of these systems in a car I rented from Hertz in October. Aside from the fact that they wanted you to check in via video conference and the system was down yet the staff didn't want to help... And aside from the fact that I actually asked for a car without GPS... The most annoying part of the experience was this damn system. It had an off switch/brightness switch that was deactivated, and it was positioned in this particular car in such a manner that it completely blinded me at night to the right side. No right sided vision and no use of the rear view mirror, because all I could see was this god-awful 100% on LCD blasting like a friggin spotlight at me. It didn't help that it was raining, so the light was also reflected off the car windows. Seriously, Hertz...let us turn them off or at least turn down the damn brightness.

Re:God I hate those neverlost things

[The Grim Reefer]

Hertz with the GPS devices. You can only turn the brightness down a bit

I've used NeverLost a few times and judging by the directions I've gotten, I'd say the brightness sure doesn't need be be set any lower.

Re: God I hate those neverlost things

[jo7hs2]

And I wondered about the camera. The staff said they thought maybe they would try unattended checkin right from the car. And I believe Hertz . That much that they have no intention of using the cameras. I'm just shocked there isn't a forward facing one too.

Re:God I hate those neverlost things

[tompaulco]

Besides I have phone GPS which frankly is easier to use.

That is pretty said if they have developed an in-car device that is less useful than a phone. Why don't they just buy cars with GPS? Just about every car has it at least as an option these days. You get a much larger screen, no worrying about batteries dying, usually a much less dangerous UI than a phone or other separate GPS, and some models even have limited inertial navigation for when you go into tunnels or are traveling in mountainous areas.

Re:God I hate those neverlost things

[redmid17]

Trust me. I've tried. They do not turn off. Maybe they've changed that in the last few months. I haven't had a neverlost unit since December.

And now, your daily dose of tinfoil hattery

[Iamthecheese]

I'll just leave this and this here.

Re:And now, your daily dose of tinfoil hattery

[mitcheli]

Mental note, no making out in a Hertz Rental car...

Re:And now, your daily dose of tinfoil hattery

[Gr8Apes]

You know, tinfoil hattery went out of style around the time of Snowden's releases, which proved that no one was paranoid when it comes to gov intrusion into your privacy.

No plans to do so

[bengoerz]

We had plans to launch the camera feature. At least, enough to actually bother paying for cameras to be installed. But (now that our intent has been covered in the media), we no longer have such plans.

Re:No plans to do so

[QuietLagoon]

lmftfy...

No plans to do so

Hertz said, "No current plans to do so." [emphasis mine]

.
There's nothing to say that plans to use the camera may appear later today, tomorrow, next week or next month. If Hertz had not intended to use the cameras, they simply would not have put them in the vehicles.

Re:No plans to do so

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is how the meeting went at hertz i assume:

"Hey we can add cameras to this shitty system we use" - CTO
"Woah seriously lets fucking do that" - CEO
"Why" - CFO

"Because fuck you thats why" - CEO & CTO in unison

god hertz sucks

[rogoshen1]

I just had a rental from them while my car was in the shop -- Chrysler 200 -- it had the annoying as feck GPS / nav unit.

On vehicle start up, after about 5 seconds it would play a super annoying jingle followed by "Hertz!". No way to turn down the volume, disable it, or turn off the nav unit entirely.

Starting the car.. I felt like Peter on office space preparing to get shocked by the door handle.

Methinks that they went this route to stop people from going postal on that fucking thing, and destroying it. (After a week I was about to.)

Re:god hertz sucks

[cyn1c77]

I just had a rental from them while my car was in the shop -- Chrysler 200 -- it had the annoying as feck GPS / nav unit.

On vehicle start up, after about 5 seconds it would play a super annoying jingle followed by "Hertz!". No way to turn down the volume, disable it, or turn off the nav unit entirely.

Starting the car.. I felt like Peter on office space preparing to get shocked by the door handle.

Methinks that they went this route to stop people from going postal on that fucking thing, and destroying it. (After a week I was about to.)

I always figured the GPS unit in the Hertz cars was a theft deterrent.

When I rent from Hertz, I personally hate being in the same space as the GPS unit. It would definitely make me find another car to steal.

OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you recall OnStar? They would let the FBI listen in on car conversations without the passengers being aware.

http://subliminalnews.com/archives/000119.php

Of course they would NEVER use these, no way, go about your business citizen.

"no plans to use them"

[duck_rifted]

What? Then rental cars? We don't plan on using them either now.

PostIt notes now are even more useful

[mrflash818]

Use PostIt notes to cover the camera lens, until _you_ chose to allow yourself to be video-ed.

Re:PostIt notes now are even more useful

[TheGratefulNet]

I have an evil-genius 2-step plan on how to fight this.

first, you need to have a small a/v player. hey, smart phones can play audio and video! now, we need a reducer so that we can 'pipe' the video into the camera, optically, to create the illusion that the car is empty (or in any state we want). easy to pipe in audio, simply by putting the phone spkr near the mic.

2nd part of the plan is to edit the contract (adding a section) that says you may, at your option, provide 'performance art' inside the car. something to that effect.

now that you've set it up, have some fun! what could you record that would be great for playback, for them to see? fake a murder? fake a corporate take-over? fake a plot of some kind? some other kind of intentional mis-direction?

you already covered yourself by the performance-art clause. you can laugh it off when you sign their contract and just make a joke about the camera. if done properly, they won't know what you have in mind.

the rest, as they say: 'hillarity will ensue'.

and unless its illegal (its not) to pipe in any video stream you want in front of a spycam, you can do this and mess with their data collection while having some well-earned laughs at their expense.

No plans to use Hertz!!!

[EmperorOfCanada]

I love these MBA types who come up with these pretty much psychopathic ways to make a few extra bucks and don't realize that people will have a violently negative reaction.

I call this spreadsheet thinking; that is where a person has a spreadsheet showing the millions of car rentals and then adds a new line item where they make a few extra pennies per rental and it makes the bottom line go up by a nice jump. Then the MBAs give each other nice bonuses based upon this "brilliant" plan. What they don't have is a line item where their customers will actually pay more to use a different rental company that doesn't have cameras in their cars. The MBAs will just call them a few "irrational" actors who need to "get a life". Then when the media gets a hold of this they will say that "It was blown out of proportion" and eventually they will retreat saying that they need to "reposition" the technology.

The lesson the company won't learn is to stop hiring psychopathic MBAs.

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[dcw3]

Do you really think they give a shit, when 99%+ will not care, and the overall impact still is in their favor? Or, when all of the other rental companies pile on, and you have no other options, will you boycott them all?

For the record, I'm against this move, and would likely stick electrical tape over any camera.

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The lesson the company won't learn is to stop hiring psychopathic MBAs.

But you repeat yourself.

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

likely stick electrical tape over any camera.

CEOs: That's the beauty of it, see: next we buy up stock in electrical tape manufacturers and get them coming and going!

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[Gr8Apes]

.. 99%+ will not care...For the record, I'm against this move, and would likely stick electrical tape over any camera.

part of the 99%?

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[dcw3]

.. 99%+ will not care...For the record, I'm against this move, and would likely stick electrical tape over any camera.

part of the 99%?

Unfortunately, no. But in all of the discussions I have with people regarding privacy, few outside of Slashdot seem to care. Maybe I'm working from a bad data set, but can you think of any examples where people raised enough stink about privacy to actually get changes enacted? I'm all for fighting the good fight, but I won't don't believe in swimming against the tide.

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[Gr8Apes]

Yep, this case raised a major legal stink, and should probably have gotten the operators in more than a little hot water, considering the spied upon subjects were minors in their bedrooms....

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[EmperorOfCanada]

The key is that they will probably lose more money than the pittance they were hoping to gain. Also keep in mind that the MBAs who had nothing to do with this will use it to stab the other MBAs in the back.

Also it might serve as a warning to any other companies trying to pull that crap. Plus we techies will say, "Oh you rented a Hertz, you know they have spy cams in them?"

Plus I have had some pretty non techie types ask me about the bitcoin thing in utorrent. Plus every single one of my daughters' friend keep tape over their laptop web cams; not one of whom could make a hello world.

Re:No plans to use Hertz!!!

[Gr8Apes]

Yep, until you hide your header system stamp, there's no point.

Probably will turn out good

[JMZero]

There's probably lots of things certain people won't do with a camera pointed at them, even if it's supposedly disabled. This will probably end up saving them some money on hijinks related car damage.

Re:Probably will turn out good

[Chuckstar]

Most people won't even realize there's a camera there. It's fairly innocuous and most people don't read articles like the one linked. I doubt they are counting on that effect for reducing damage.

in the future?

[tomhath]

Cars don't stay in a rental fleet very long. If they are installing them today they must be looking at activating them in about a year; by then the entire fleet will have them installed.

As if we needed another reason to not use Hertz

[HBI]

Not like there aren't competitors, who I avail myself of at all times. I made a mistake recently of attempting to book a car through them. Didn't process and there was no car for me at the other end. I found someone else to rent from, and haven't regretted not even considering them for many years.

Re:As if we needed another reason to not use Hertz

[Obfuscant]

Not like there aren't competitors, who I avail myself of at all times.

The car rental universe is going the way of broadband internet, don't you know? There are three major companies now operating under several names each. Like:

- Avis owns Budget and Zipcar

- Hertz owns Advantage, Dollar and Thrifty

- Enterprise owns Alamo and National

All told, these three companies own 94% of the car rental industry in America.

If you want to avoid one company, you need to know all the players and who they play for.

Re:As if we needed another reason to not use Hertz

[HBI]

I knew about the Alamo/National relationship but not the rest. Educational. Thank you.

Re:As if we needed another reason to not use Hertz

[Chuckstar]

Depending on what you don't like about one of the companies, though, it may still make sense to switch to a sister company.

For instance, I hate renting from Enterprise. They have a very cloying, hands-on approach to customer service that I find fake, saccharine and overall annoying, but that other people seem to like. No, I don't need you to walk out to the car with me and show me how the windshield wipers work. So I prefer renting from National, which is basically the completely opposite customer service approach. You go to the aisle for the type car you rented and pick out whichever car you want. The only time you have to talk to an employee is the guy that checks you out at the parking lot exit. There's no conflict, in my mind, created by the fact they are the same company in the background.

On the other hand, if I were to feel defrauded by National or Enterprise, then I would make an effort to not rent from the sibling company.

Re:Well of course theyre not going to use them

[Dracos]

Exactly. The NSA will use them.

If only there was a way.

[sunking2]

"This week I got an angry email from a friend who had just rented a car from Hertz: “Did you know Hertz is putting cameras in rental cars!? This is bullsh*t. I wonder if it says they can tape me in my Hertz contract.” He sent along this photo of a camera peeping at him from out of his “NeverLost,” a navigational device that the company has started putting in many of its cars:"

Here's a crazy idea, read the contract you signed.

contracts says possible location device

[peter303]

This was in a country where there was tempting, illegal offroad driving.

Re:Does not work

[Dr_Barnowl]

Probably works better when the tape is further from the camera, and suspended in air for a bigger difference in refactive indices, as it would be in a typical camera enclosure with a shroud to make it less likely that objects touch the lens. The tape scatters the light - but if it's stuck on a thin piece of glass, not so much.

Way too much credit

[monkeyxpress]

Even if someone higher up at Hertz had a devious plan to install these cameras into every vehicle and covertly film all their customers, there is no way in hell that any rental car company I know of could implement such a system. Most of the time they can barely get you the car you supposedly booked for the price you were quoted. I once got stuck in a huge mismanaged queue at Avis for an hour and when I finally got to the front they told me a car was not available. When I said I had booked one so how could this be, the customer service person informed me that I was half an hour late so if I wanted to ensure I got a car I should turn up on time.

I also have no idea why my collecting a car I have booked requires so much typing on their behalf. It is like they are writing a short dissertation on me, every time I rent a car. Surely if I rent another car the same month the amount of typing can be reduced. I have caught a glimpse of their green character based IT terminals and I am pretty certain there is no secret skunk works at Hertz HQ working on anything other than more confusing ways to charge collision damage waivers.

Re:Way too much credit

[hawguy]

Even if someone higher up at Hertz had a devious plan to install these cameras into every vehicle and covertly film all their customers, there is no way in hell that any rental car company I know of could implement such a system. Most of the time they can barely get you the car you supposedly booked for the price you were quoted.

I've never had a problem getting the rate I was quoted. It's common that they are out of the particular car class I ordered, but that's to be expected, they don't have unlimited room to store each of a dozen car classes. They've always either upgraded me for "free" (except that the upgraded car often uses more gas, so it's not really "free", but I've had good luck talking them into giving me a Hybrid when that happens if they have one available), or gave me a discount for a downgraded car.

I once got stuck in a huge mismanaged queue at Avis for an hour and when I finally got to the front they told me a car was not available. When I said I had booked one so how could this be, the customer service person informed me that I was half an hour late so if I wanted to ensure I got a car I should turn up on time.

Rental agencies overbook just like the airlines, but it's harder for them to ensure supply when people don't return cars on time, at least an airline knows that they can seat 300 people on a 300 person aircraft, the rental agency isn't sure if they'l have 0 or 50 cars on the lot by the time you get there because some people may be late, or they may have sent a lot of cars on one-way trips. It's a tough logistical problem.

I also have no idea why my collecting a car I have booked requires so much typing on their behalf. It is like they are writing a short dissertation on me, every time I rent a car. Surely if I rent another car the same month the amount of typing can be reduced. I have caught a glimpse of their green character based IT terminals and I am pretty certain there is no secret skunk works at Hertz HQ working on anything other than more confusing ways to charge collision damage waivers.

If you rent a car regularly, sign up for the rental agency's premier club. When I used to travel a lot, my company rented from Avis and Hertz almost exclusively, I was in both of their permier rental programs, and when I got to the car lot I could just find the car with my name on it, and drive away, showing my ID to the guy at the gate. The other advantage is that my premier reserved car is *always* there, even if they have to turn away other customers to make sure the car is there.

Re:Way too much credit

[whoever57]

I've never had a problem getting the rate I was quoted. It's common that they are out of the particular car class I ordered, but that's to be expected,

I am not going to use Hertz again.

In the past, one paid extra for the convenience of an on-airport car-rental location and perhaps a nicer bus. Now, all the car rental locations are in the same building (unless you are using a small, local company) and at some (many) airports, the busses are also pooled. So the primary advantage of Hertz is gone for me.

On my last rental, I declined the navigation system. Yet on returning it, I was charged for the navigation system. Was this an accident? I am suspicious that it was not.

On this same rental, I asked for additional drivers. At no point was I told that there was an extra cost for this. Yet, I was charged extra. This may be legal, but it was deceptive.

Hertz, you lost my business.

Re:Way too much credit

[u38cg]

Couple of factors. One is typically the agent is using several systems that don't talk to each other, at least one of which dates from the 70s. Two is regulatory and risk requirements that mean you are forced to reenter data instead of checking it.

The other thing is that most of the efficiency from the poibnt of view of the customer is down to the local management of that rental location. Well managed places will zip you through, badly places won't.

Re:Way too much credit

[operagost]

That navigation BS is definitely a no-no. I've been upgraded from a compact to a minivan for free before because the compact wasn't available. Enterprise charged me for the compact I reserved.

Re:How about cameras at enter and exit of the rena

[Nkwe]

How about cameras at enter and exit of the rental place?

No we can't do that as it will end our ding and dent scam.

I travel for business and rent cars a couple of times a month. My experience with Hertz and Avis (top tier business targeted rental companies) has been that they don't do the ding and dent scam. If you return a car to one of these guys and it has all for tires, runs, and has no obvious accident dents, you won't get hassled. On the other hand, companies like Thrifty, Budget, and independents tend to give me the super picky inspection process when you check out and return the cars.

I did just rent from Hertz a couple of weeks ago and it had the new camera thing. It got the post it note treatment. Putting aside the new camera thing for a moment, I get really good service from Hertz. I arrive at the airport, walk to the stall number displayed on the big reader board (or in an email I receive about the time I land), get in the car, drive to the exit, show my ID, and I am on my way. No paperwork, sales attempts at upgrades, etc.

Logitech webcam $24; built into GPS for $10?

[DutchUncle]

It isn't expensive to start rolling out as part of the new generation of Neverlost hardware. Eventually they'll check on who's driving ("You only paid for one driver and signed for one insurance coverage, but we see that both of you were driving..."), once their lawyers have finished changing the microprint that nobody reads before they sign.

Remainder of quote

[ThatsNotPudding]

"That's for the hackers to figure out!"

Re:How about cameras at enter and exit of the rena

[TheMeuge]

I've been routinely photographing my rental cars pre- and post- rental. Haven't had the scam tried on me yet, but looking forward to suing the shit out of them when they do.

Re:How about cameras at enter and exit of the rena

[Nkwe]

Smells like astroturf in here.

Says the AC. You can check my other posts to see if I have a history of shilling or not (I don't).

Believe it or not I am just a customer who is generally happy with the service. They are more expensive then the lower tier companies, but this is business travel and I am not paying for it. Their cars are generally not very interesting, but I am not a car guy and I just want to get where I am going. Sometime the cars are not new and dirty, this bugs me. But all these things are generally outweighed by the ease of the checkout process.

Anyway my point wasn't to shill for a particular company, rather to point out that I doubt the largest rental car companies are going to mess with ding and dent scams.

One more thing not to do in a rental car.

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

Have sex.
Unless you are planning on becoming a pr0n star.

Re:One more thing not to do in a rental car.

[Firethorn]

That's one of the quirks - Record it with 'intent' to publish and you're a porn business, and paying for sex is legal. Don't record it and you're hiring a prostitute, which is illegal in most areas.

Thanks, Winston

[rsborg]

Realize you have no control over it. You don't know where "the" microphone is, whether it is active, nor how many there are. And you never will.

Listen, is it normal to expect all our encounters to have "party oversight"? For now, I'll assume that Hertz vehicles are "police state-ready" while others are still "in development".

Makes my choices easier for now.

Car pr0n?

[rsborg]

“We do not have adequate bandwidth capabilities to the car to support streaming video at this time,”

Notice that this doesn't mention *local* recording - say, a snapshot every 30 seconds or so. Then auto-upload via WiFi when the car returns to the agency. This might be very valuable for corporate marketing research, and to catch people doing things in the cars that their contract frowns on :-)

Or as a separate venture to capture and broadcast "in-car pr0n" - they don't have to be pictures - HD space is cheap... I wonder if that's covered in the rental agreement fine-print.

Wrong direction

[Livius]

Rental agencies need to think in terms of simplifying. Automobile dashboards already have far too much frivolous crap. That's bad enough if you own the car and can spend 15 or 20 minutes learning everything, but it's a real hazard for a car you've only been driving for 10 minutes when you realize you can't turn off heated seats or turn on rear window defrost. The last car I rented had a mute button but no way to turn off the radio (really - I pulled over and spent five minutes reading the owner's manual and the designers were actually so clueless that it never occurred to them).

Hertz needs cameras, but at its gates

[Applehu Akbar]

The complete exterior of every rental car being checked out should be photographed in high resolution, so that if damage is reported on checkin, the check-out record can be compared. Naturally, a time-stamped copy of the checkout photos should be emailed to the customer right after being taken. A damage assessment would legally be made if and only if the checkout images clearly showed no damage at that location.

Up to now the customer has been responsible to taking checkout photos, but what that has led to is darkened checkout areas and damage reports in weird places where no renter dressed up for a business assignment would be reasonably expected to crawl.

Opportunity cost

[Firethorn]

Pretty much my thought. The car company sells them the cameras for something like $100/vehicle, they decide to take it up enough that they at least start purchasing cars with the camera, but then cooler heads prevail and shut the program down

Sure

[rsilvergun]

I've got a spare 2 hours to kill anyway. btw, Have you ever rented a car? The US tax code is simpler than the contract you sign...

Re:Does not work

[funwithBSD]

The stuff I use is slightly frosted if it is not stuck to something directly, and there is enough of an air gap to keep it frosted.

Scotch "Invisible" tape, ironically.