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Why the Framework Nuclear Agreement With Iran Is Good For Both Sides
Lasrick writes: Ariane Tabatabai breaks down the details of the framework agreement between Iran and the P5+1 that was announced Thursday. It appears to be better than most analysts expected, with positive outcomes for both sides. It truly seems historic: "A number of these steps will, in effect, be irreversible. They will not just limit Iran's nuclear capability for 10 to 15 years, but will reshape it entirely and indefinitely. ... [B]oth sides stand to gain from the framework agreement, which should also be considered a victory for the global nonproliferation regime. Ahead of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference that begins in late April, where no major achievements in nonproliferation are likely to be announced, the framework agreement is a very important success."
The woman is positively delusional. Neville Chamberlain could have done better.
While Obama may hype this agreement as not allowing Iran to destroy the world with nuclear weapons for at least 15 years, our Israeli masters will never allow our congress to ratify this agreement.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
President for Life Cruz will repudiate any stupid godless Obama treaties and rules and will instead bring Jesus's love to the oppressed people of Persia, and soon the world.
Global humanity fucked up when we let Isreal have nuclear weapons and shit all over the NPT. This just kicks the can down the road. T2-style Judgement Day will be a few years later than expected is all.
Iran will mothball all its NES and Playstation-level cetrifuges, while keeping all its Xbone and PS4 centrifuges running full tilt. Wouldn't you, in the same situation?
nuclear weapons ARE tech. nerds of the geopolitical bent have interest in what's going on here, too. and if anything else, this is literally "stuff that matters".
but here's your refund for a free article, if you still don't like it.
Were you busy on Wednesday or something?
"I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
From the second the GW Bush made his crazy ill-advised "Axis of Evil" speech and then proceeded to invade one of those Axis members, it was pretty much guaranteed that Iran and North Korea would pursue nukes (and NK has already succeeded). They're not stupid. They know nukes are the only way to assure you won't be invaded or overthrown by the U.S.
So if you don't suck up to Iran and give them a deal that says "We're not going to invade you if you'll just play ball," then it's really only a matter of time. Mossad can car-bomb all the scientists it wants. The U.S. can release a hundred Stuxnets. But eventually it WILL happen.
So if you don't give them a deal, you're really only assuring it. Now, maybe they'll still do it anyway. But at least this way there is a CHANCE they won't.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
It's click/trollbait.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Other analyses I've read point out that America made significant concessions, and the Iranians basically none at all, and furthermore that the Iranians are very unlikely to comply with the terms.
That compounded with the perplexing arrogance of our current president, who evidently either failed civics 101 or forgot that he isn't entitled to make treaties on behalf of America without the Senate's involvement and approval. And then you have that Iranian military commander sneering that their plans to destroy Israel remain in force. It's such a pathetic situation; why do the editors think people will be fooled by this ridiculous and fawning summary?
While such an agreement is not perfect, I have not seen a decent alternative put forward. If their facilities are clobbered by air, they can build them deeper under ground and/or disperse the processing to multiple locations, and perhaps in populated areas, using them as human shields.
And you'd further inflame them by dropping things on them, getting nationalism galore.
The only way to stop it after that stage would probably require genocide. They may be jerks, but they have NOT done anything even close to deserving genocide.
(Compared to the rest of the region, one could argue that county is relatively tame, or at least average.)
Some argue that taking out Ireq's* nuke program from the air had proved fruitful. However, it appears that Mr. H. simply decided to focus more on chemicals instead. Thus, he traded in one W-M-D for another W-M-D.
* Intentional misspelling
Table-ized A.I.
I'm sure there won't be any belly aching and panty tightening from the zionists this holiday weekend.
LOL They are going to be so pissed.
Iran will have a bomb in 7 years, and Saudi Arabia will trigger the clauses in their deal to fund Pakistan's bomb development, and will instantly get a competing bomb. Russia will make bank selling the manufacturing technology and the delivery systems.
Provided the entire Middle East doesn't go Mad Max in the next 5 years, joining Syria, Libya, Iraq and Yemen in Chaos.
My bet is on Mad Max.
No matter how much that is being disliked, Iran is a sovereign nation and no other nation has a right to tell them what to do. Even if they wear funny dresses, hang criminals, and stone women suspected of adultery.
Yet, it seems, they have received an offer that they cannot refuse.
With the global powers playing reverse stick and carrot... Ukraine voluntarily gave nukes for guarantees and has been given a cold shoulder after 20% of the country was first raped then annexed. Israel has nukes and nobody dares to attack them, because they know that the response will be swift.
Speaking of Ukraine, Poland had guarantees in 1939 and back then Western Powers followed through and did declare war to Germany, when they invaded Poland. Ukraine had guarantees from 4 countries, yet were royally shafted.
Lesson learned by the governments: you never give up any rights.
All we had to do, was simply not lift the sanctions.
That was it. All we had to do was LITERALLY NOTHING, and they still fucked it eight ways from sideways.
The new agreement guarantees Iran will have plenty of money to finish up work on shine new nuclear weapons and improve the ICBMs they already have (oh, you thought any kind of nuclear agreement would be linked to getting rid of ICBMs with no other purpose than nuclear weapon delivery? HA HA HA HA HA).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well based on that criteria we might as well post on things like the federal deficit, sports scores, etc. Everything has "tech" and is "stuff that matters". However that isn't what Slashdot is supposed to be about.
sounds good to me.
Cowardice. And groundless, too. There's no reason to believe that Iran would invite destruction by doing a first strike. That's completely delusional.
Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
Thats pretty retarded. You seem to forgotten everyone else with nuclear weapons. What Iran could do with nuclear weapons is act in a way that would otherwise get them invaded. The weapon itself can't by used due to MAD.
Sadly like much of the rest of the news industry.
A better title would be "If you like your U.S. coastal cities, you can keep your U,S. coastal cities".
At least NYC will no longer have to worry about future attacks after they are gone for good. I guess theoretically you can derive some wry amusement from so many people having voted for Obama reaping such direct "rewards"... but it's impossible to be that cavalier over so many dead.
Time for parents to break out "The Day After" again for the kids!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If McCain and whatever her name was, had been elected then then song would have been, 'bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran'
Thankfully the American voters did not see it that way, it is a real bummer that most do not vote on off-year electins and we got stuck with a bunch of regressive war-mongering gopers this last election
Wherever You Go, There You Are
This belongs on another site. Not here. Take it down.
This is the most politically biased article I have seen on /. in a long time. It doesn't matter how many 'safeguards' there are. Iran will have a working knowledge on manufacturing and operating centrifuges, which means they can build, and operate some more centrifuges in secrecy. Iran has 70 million people, and a lot of oil money. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, and of course, Israel, know this, are unhappy about it, and might take rash actions.
Kendall,
Sure, and will they use magical powers to prevent the retaliation from the hundred-odd nukes that Israel has?
Hardliners in Iran and Israel both use this issue to stay in power, the longer the status quo, the worse the jerks that get into office
Wherever You Go, There You Are
If "third world" Pakistan can control itself while wielding nuclear weapons, I'm sure Iran can as well. The inescapable fact of the matter is this: The United States does not "militarily" mess with nation possessing nuclear weapons. This fact alone makes the weapons highly desirable.
Some things need to be said...
Iran has been 6 months away from a bomb for the past 20 years.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com...
Just what did you think Iran was going to do with all the money that floods into the country after sanctions are lifted? A fleet of Ice-Cream trucks? Infrastructure for the people that constantly demonstrate against the ruling regime?
No, that money is going to go into full scale nuclear weapon development. You'll see in a year or so.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
John Kerry: "We've agreed on a consensus .. on a range of key parameters .. of an arrangement....." he actually said something like that.
Whatever man, enjoy your triple nested what ifs.
Nixon's head
"no other nation has a right to tell them what to do."
Nobody is telling Iran what to do. Iran has violated multiple agreements, agreements that it signed. That said, I'm not sure why the Obama administration believes they will honor this agreement. Fifth time is a charm?
Looks like your sarcasm detector needs its 100k checkup.
whoosh!
Wherever You Go, There You Are
Even if Iran does not use weapons directly, they can provide small nuclear devices to terrorist groups. We'll be seeing those within a few years. Iran has backed a number of terrorist groups (like Hamas) for many, many years.
But even for direct attacks from Iran - remember that Iran is full of many, many people who are basically innocents, rules by leaders that are almost wholly insane and do not care if their own people die.
So lets say Iran fires a nuclear missile as Israel, or the US (they have ICBMs that can reach the easter coast). So what? The point of nukes is that no-one wants to use them because they in turn will get attacked. But why WOULD the U.S. send a nuclear strike back, against cities full of innocent people.
No, all that would happen is we would MAYBE to to war with Iran, using conventional forces. But that (over the long term) is exactly what Iran (and a number of other Islamic forces like ISIS) actually desire to happen. At the very least they could get in a really nice nuclear strike against the navy, that's what they are thinking anyway.
So given that something Iran wants to happen will be brought about by using their nuclear arsenal, you can be assured they will in fact use nuclear weapons against the U.S, Israel, and probably a few other countries. The new agreement by lifting the sanctions provides Iran with plenty of money to build up a nice arsenal before they attack directly, instead of attacking with a handful of nuclear weapons which they would have had to do had the sanctions remained in place.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Attack with an Iranian weapon in 1.5 years.
Attack with an Iranian weapon Iran will admit to responsibility for, in four years (they want time to stockpile more than a few nukes before going on a full offensive).
Read it and weep. A thousand centrifuges in an un-killable under-mountain facility. Once sanctions are lifted they would take a long time to restart, so even IF you catch Iran cheating you can do nothing now to stop the inevitable.
If I lived in a coastal community I would move out immediately.
I hope Iron Dome can be switched to "reflect".
Nothing like some irrational fearmongering to brighten your day.
What on earth does your mental model of Iranians look like?! A nation of genocidal suicide bombers??
You know how many wars Iran has launched since 1979? Zero.
You know who does the suicide bombings? Not Shias, the dominant religion in Iran.
Yes their human rights record sucks, yes the probably want a Nuke or at least some practical Nuclear expertise to deter attacks from Israel or the US. But they're not cartoonish supervillians and I have no idea what evidence you're basing your predictions on. Healthy relations between the US and Iran is a good thing for everybody.
I stole this Sig
People act as if doing what other countries tell you to do is always in your best interest. Nukes aren't weapons, they are a prerequisite for actual sovereignty. Without them, one of the big 3 can roll in as soon as the weather and mood suits them. And no one will lift a finger.
What's more, once you get that nuke, not only will you not be invaded - but other nations will still trade with you: Lest you grow desperate enough to sell a nuke.
(AC to preserve mod points)
The people of Iran are innocent, and basically do not like the rulers of Iran. Why would Iron care if Israel nukes them back?
Besides, to start with at least it would be Hamas firing some Iranian nuclear weapons from Palestine. Do you know nothing about the middle east? So why would Israel have cause to attack Iran directly... and it's not like they can attack Palestine with a nuclear weapon.
It's sad how many have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When Iran lights up their first nuke in anger and/or conquest, life will probably not go well for Obama.
47 minutes after Iran announces that they have a nuclear weapon a large mushroom cloud over Tehran will announce the cancelation of said nuclear program.
Send that message.
anything past that is a waste of time.
There's no reason to believe that Iran would invite destruction by doing a first strike.
I tend to consider the statement by Iran's minister of defense that the destruction of Israel is a non-negotiable point as a reason. Reasonable people can argue on how good a reason, but holding to the theory that no reason exists is, in fact, delusional, when national leadership of the country has openly declared its intent to annihilate another country.
So...
Iran gets to keep its full ICBM program, now defacto sanctioned OK because nothing in the "deal" mentioned it, period.
Iran gets to keep its nuclear reactors intact and also now sanctioned to operate.
Iran gets to keep ALL known and unknown weapons manufacturing and nuclear weapons facilities.
Iran get to keep upgrading its uranium to "weapons grade".
Iran does not have to move outside of the country into third-party hands existing weapons grade nuclear materials...
Iran does not have to have any snap weapons inspections (the existing "deal" requires prior notice well in advance of any inspections)
Iran gets off the US/international Terrorist List (despite still funding terrorism worldwide)
Iran does not have to admit that the United States and Israel are not its enemies and they do not have to agree to any consequences for attacking either country.
Iran gets it seized billions of dollars returned to it internationally.
Iran gets all banking and trade embargoes (including arms dealing) lifted.
Iran gets to sell its crude oil on the world market (then expect oil to quickly drop into the $20/barrel range as they flood the market with their 2 million bpd)
Iran has zero requirement to abide by any deal as there are no precisely defined consequences to when they break whatever the Obama Admin claims the "deal" is...
Iran can abruptly cancel and reverse anything it allegedly agreed to with the Obama Admin and it will STILL have all sanctions removed and the Obama Admin cannot put them back even if it wanted to do so.
Iran gets to legitimize all of its weapons programs and keep all of its WMD programs it had before plus get its economy back fully operational.
Iran does not have to remove from its charter the destruction of the United States and Isreal.
So, the US basically gets nothing it wanted, and Iran gets all it wanted and more... and the media will spin doctor the Obama Admin into the greatest diplomatic team with the highest achievable pinnacle in US diplomacy history.... Its almost as if the Obama Admin had an Iranian Adviser guiding the decisions of the president... (Valerie Jarrett)
Bibi was exactly right, this is an awful, terrible, horrendous deal. Changing nothing and canceling any and all deals on the table would be the best possible deal for US National Security... (Sometimes "the only willing move is not to play")
An Iran with nuclear weapons means that the other moslem counties (who can afford them) will all want their own nuclear weapons... and this is deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize how exactly? Welcome to M.A.D. middle-east style...
The audience of this site are "Nerds". "Stuff that matters" is measured in the amount of comments a story gets. So whether this is a relevant story, we're soon to find out. Maybe try to get a sport score story in here at some time, it might matter...
What on earth does your mental model of Iranians look like?! A nation of genocidal suicide bombers??
I have a friend who comes from Iran. The people of Iran in general, are pretty friendly and like the U.S.
However they are not the ones building the nuclear weapons. They are not the ones deciding when to use the weapons; who to use them against. That is up to the leaders of Iran, who in fact are not far off from your description. They consider the people of Iran as pawns and shields...
The people of Iran in fact are the very reason I think Iran will use nuclear weapons; because how could we retaliate?
If Iran destroys NYC, I would not support nuking any Iranian cities for exactly that reason. Nor would the rest of the U.S. So Iran is safe to attack many targets with impunity, knowing that for a while at least no major western U.S. country is willing to respond with nuclear weapons.
You know how many wars Iran has launched since 1979? Zero.
When you consider just Iran's backing of Hamas that statement is laughably naive.
And even if you JUST think about Iran attacking countries directly there's this little thing called the Iran-Iraq war., lasting from 1980-1989... yes Iraq started it but after regaining lost land Iran was on the offensive for several years after.
So it's pretty obvious you are more than clueless when it comes to knowing anything about Iran.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Bam. disco man. It entrirely escapes me why the extreme power differential of the americas allows anything but total exclusion of nuclear weapons for anyone in the rest of the world, but okay.
I didn't say suitcase nuke - you did. I said small.
All it needs to be able to do is fit on a boat, all that needs to do is enter any major harbor... even semi-truck size is fine for that purpose.
If you think Iran is decades away from developing any nuclear weapon, please fight it out with the people claiming they should have had nuclear weapons shortly if no agreement was made. If you can convince them I'll buy it.
I don't care to argue over a point no-one else seems to be making.
It's hardly fear-mongering to point out obvious consequences, even if those consequences are bad. Isn't ignoring a highly probable a very bad possibility a much worse idea?
I'll stop posting for now so you can put your head back... in the sand.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Like US relations with Pakistan, engaging Iran has one purpose: to cut funding for non-state militant groups ("terrorists"). Delaying their nuclear program so Israel would stop screaming about the end of the world is just a side benefit.
...that both sides adhere to it without cheating?
For example, I'd offer the 'historic' agreements with N Korea as an example of moronic pollyannas making agreements that actually allowed one partner to basically continue unhindered in any meaningful way, while the other got to 'claim' a successful negotiation.
Yeah, that's probably a good example.
-Styopa
Great post. I couldn't help but notice every year Bibi always said they were 6 months to a year away from getting a bomb. Nice to see it documented.
I know a couple Iranian physicists. The word from them is their capability is very weak, or was... Russia sold them some "toy" reactors to play with and it'll take them forever to create a serious bomb. It's Israeli conservatives that have been making a stink over it, overstating the case for political gain. My Iranian friends might be full of it, but it's an interesting take on the situation.
They changed their unit to Dog Years.
Table-ized A.I.
From Kerry's point of view, Framework 1 is to keep him in play for Framework 2 after June of this year, which will then require Framework 3 to carry on until the Democratic Convention in '16 where Kerry will be drafted to run for President, then Framework 4 will be quickly setup to expire in January 2017.
The real intent of the "Framework[s]" is to give Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman and other Gulf states time to acquire nuclear weapons programs because by the time [if] Kerry gets the Presidency, Iran will have 2 deployable nuclear weapons [even after 3 underground detonation tests].
They've been dragging this out so they can relocate as much equipment as they can to locations hidden from the UN inspectors. Once sanctions are dropped, they'll continue full steam ahead on development of warheads and the delivery systems. If they weren't building a nuke or other WMD, why in the hell would they be building missiles that can reach Europe? It would be much cheaper and simpler for them to just buy nuclear fuel from a 3rd party like Jordan is going to do if their intent was to build nuclear power stations. I have some ocean front property in Colorado to sell you if you think that this agreement will stop Iran.
garyisabusyguy,
I understand the point you are trying to make, but as an actual Israeli who votes in elections here and lives here, you are extremely wrong. No one here generally campaigns on the premise of defending Israel against Iran. The larger issues right now are economics, Hamas, preserving the idea of Israel as a Jewish state, and general sense of security. The last point does hint a bit at Iran, but it's not something people campaign.
The left and the right are generally in agreement that a nuclear Iran is a really bad idea. The differences are mainly in the idea of starting a war with Iran which no one here wants, or trying to find a way to negotiate/sanction further (proxy economic war). Essentially violence vs non-violence. The war option even with the right is still a non-starter because of all the distance and logistics in the way of dealing with Iran in a conventional war. The most that is talked about is a one-way suicide-style mission to specifically take out nuclear sites with combined air and ground strikes. This is generally been seen as infeasible, but remains as a point of discussion until a better option is found. Mainly it's just muscle flexing towards the Iranian leadership
So while you are perhaps right about Iran, you are very wrong about Israel. The left here simply lost the last few elections by ignoring real issues and campaigning via smearing instead of staying on point about real issues. People are frustrated nothing changes and hate the right and Likud, but see the left as too weak to form a government. Simply put, like the US, we are often in election cycles with good leadership vacuums and choices between bad or worse.
Your insinuation that Israel is some kind of dictatorship is both disingenuous and ridiculous, especially since we have a coalition style government that includes left leaning parties even in right-formed governments usually, and we also just had early elections. I'd argue to say that our country practices more direct and pure democracy than the US, so please take your nonsense elsewhere. You don't understand Israeli politics and don't understand why Likud is still in power, which by the way are more right of center than true right wing parties like Yisrael Beteinu, Shas, and Bayit Yehudi.
You don't actually believe either the Obama administration or Iran will tell you the real deal, do you?
It really is too bad, this discussion will be "archived" in 12 months and so it will be impossible to reply to you then ask you to eat a crow. If Iran does not have a nuke in 12-24 months, it would not be for lack of trying.
Do you honestly believe, Iranians haven't learned the lesson taught collectively by Bill Clinton and North Koreans? In 1994 the previous Democrat President went through the same motions Obama is doing now. NY Times wrote in 1994:
Had you and I met back then, you would've called me a war-mongering hater over my doubts, North Koreans can be trusted. But I woud've been right for they have been caught lying a number of times since. Its most recent test of a nuclear weapon was in February 2013.
The lesson of dealing with the West is perfectly clear: you agree to whatever and still work on your nukes as hard as you can. Once you have them, nobody can do anything other than keep asking critics to stop hating.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
In all the years, this is probably the most ridiculous article I've read on /. What does this have to do with anything tech related?
We do discuss a wide variety of topics here and whilst I agree this isn't particularly technical, nuclear weapons, the risks of proliferation and the behaviour of state-level actors seeking to arm themselves thus are very much topics of interest to myself and many of my fellow nerds here on the 'dot.
I empathise with your frustration, however I would point out that there are often days when there's absolutely nothing on the front page that I find interesting enough to click. Best to just sigh and move on. :)
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
Yeah sure it's great for the Democrats but is horrible for the Republicans. BHO continues to refuse to reach across the isle and compromise in any amount. In relation to our capabilities, it's trivial to do a little bombing. Thank God Jeb will not have to acknowledge this travesty of a framework!
What on earth does your mental model of Iranians look like?! A nation of genocidal suicide bombers??
I have a friend who comes from Iran. The people of Iran in general, are pretty friendly and like the U.S.
I know a lot of Iranians and have a similar experience, note that you're looking at an a-typical sample, if anyone is going to be particularly against the regime it's likely to be people leaving the country.
However they are not the ones building the nuclear weapons. They are not the ones deciding when to use the weapons; who to use them against. That is up to the leaders of Iran, who in fact are not far off from your description. They consider the people of Iran as pawns and shields...
The people of Iran in fact are the very reason I think Iran will use nuclear weapons; because how could we retaliate?
If Iran destroys NYC, I would not support nuking any Iranian cities for exactly that reason. Nor would the rest of the U.S. So Iran is safe to attack many targets with impunity, knowing that for a while at least no major western U.S. country is willing to respond with nuclear weapons.
Even assuming the laughable assertion that they're a bunch of sociopaths who would happily sacrifice their own population, and they didn't give a crap for even their own survival, what possible motive would they have for doing Nuking the US?
You're describing a cartoon supervillian.
Btw, the very fact they accepted this deal demonstrates you're wrong and that they do care about their people, because otherwise they would have simply kept stalling until they had a bomb, the civilians were the ones bearing the brunt of the sanctions.
You know how many wars Iran has launched since 1979? Zero.
When you consider just Iran's backing of Hamas that statement is laughably naive.
So supporting an organization to some degree means you're responsible for all of their actions?
I can't even imagine how many wars would be added to the US tally using that standard.
And even if you JUST think about Iran attacking countries directly there's this little thing called the Iran-Iraq war., lasting from 1980-1989... yes Iraq started it but after regaining lost land Iran was on the offensive for several years after.
So it's pretty obvious you are more than clueless when it comes to knowing anything about Iran.
Did you really read that article? You make it sounds as if it was almost entirely Iran running unopposed through Iraq. Yes they started reversing the Iraqi gains in 1982 but in reality Iraq had a lot of Western support leading to lot better equipped military. As well they used chemical weapons, were the first ones to attack cities directly, and right up until the end in 1989 their ceasefire proposals involved Iraq making territorial gains.
Basically your evidence for the claim that Iran is an irrationally aggressive nation is the fact they didn't concede territory after being invaded. Come to think of it by your Hamas standard I could claim that the US is responsible for the Iran-Iraq war!
I stole this Sig
http://972mag.com/the-hater-in...
AC,
Yes, from the stand point of the Zionist Union, economics are of primary concern. In fact they almost won the election based on it
However, Netanyahu's grandstanding in front of the US Senate, claims that Arabs were being bussed to polls by the Zionist Union and declarations that there would never be a two state solution were appeals to the basest fears of the far right of the political spectrum.
I do not insinuate that Israel is some dictatorship, it is clearly a Parliamentary Democracy, but your claims that the Zionist Union ignored the economy and resorted to smear campaigns, when in fact they did focus on the economy and Likud/Netanyahu did resort to smears and FUD reeks of an attempt to re-write history
fwiw, if you want to address me by name, then please have to temerity to post under your own UID
Wherever You Go, There You Are
So the least qualified man in pretty much any room he enters is negotiating with the mad mullahs. What could go wrong?
Iran has been at war with Israel for a long time now through well-funded and very closely monitored proxies. I'm not sure how you can possibly deny this. Israel recently bombed a Hezbollah convoy and accidentally killed an Iranian general they didn't realize was present. Iran didn't make any attempt at all to deny it. Israel actually had to shrug their shoulders and insist it was an accident so as to avoid needlessly pissing off Iran.
That said, any deal at all to slow down their nuke acquisition is of course much preferable to no deal (I have no idea what the pro-sanction people are babbling about, and I suspect they don't either.) And the younger generations of Iranians seem to be much more reasonable than those currently in power. And of course, Iran and the other Shias aren't as bad as ISIS (do I need to point out what a ridiculously low bar this is to clear?)
But you cannot gloss over the Israel thing. It is already a war. It doesn't matter what your feelings are on Israel and/or Palestine; Iran does not recognize the two-state solution and it is even conceivable they would attempt to deniably nuke an Israeli target through one of their proxies.
Or, if they are feeling especially clever, nuke a Sunni target and frame Israel for it. Given the depressingly widespread beliefs of absurd Israel/Jewish conspiracy theories in the Middle East, this would be very easy to pull off.
What I think is really happening is that the Pentagon realizes that the situation in the Middle East is degenerating into a civil war between Shiite and Sunni. Because except for the occasional special-ops crowdpleaser the US does not want to get involved in a religious war, we are handing the conflict off to the most powerful Shiite country, Iran. A nuclear Iran will then be a counterweight to the most powerful Sunni nation, Pakistan. Fire up the popcorn!
While I don't see the US government getting involved directly, Christians acting privately are another matter. What if our evangelicals realize that in their boundless political butthurt over the existence of homosexuality they are ignoring the fact that Christians are being slaughtered overseas expressly because of their religion. As the survivors' tales from Garissa spread, will the megachurches take on a Last Crusade as a project?
I worry more about Israel launching a nuclear war than Iran. The Israelis are such loud-mouthed warmongers it isn't even remotely funny. Sure, Nutter'n'Yahoo has to pander to the conservative voting base, but that means that there is a huge segment of the Israeli population that supports that warmongering.
Despite Israel's claims that Iran is threatening to wipe them off the map, those statements never seem to make the news in any of the websites I read -- not even the Iranian one.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Citation needed.
That deal just means Iran gets Nuclear weapons and the ability to use them against Israel. They WILL use them WHEN they get them, they have stated so. As stated they will destroy Israel and the US as soon as they have the ability. What idiot thinks that is a good thing? They will use the time that they don't submit to the UN's inspections to rebuild the nuclear program and start pumping out bombs as fast as they can. The Iranian government is just as insane as any dictatorship seeking genocide has ever been. Only stupid people negotiate with insane people, it is unfair to the dummies in that crazy people don't really need or follow reality.
You know, "news for nerds, stuff that matters". Sure, this matters, but why the hell is it here? I've always liked ./ as a site where we can discuss technical issues, not politics. Yet sadly, poltics seems to be the appearing here a lot more than I think it should. It's a dumb business move too.
A NeoCon In Sheep's Clothing is a conservative with one note of non-stupid agenda, often mislabeled a Libertarian.
Ron Paul seems like a sincere fellow... but Libertarians are pro-abortion, pro-pot, pro-gay, and pro-firearm. We basically contend that people in the US are better than 99.9% good and that whatever good could come from restricting these things is outweighed by the harm. Alcohol prohibition is the perfect example of the opposite effect for the best intentions. But cannabis is shaping up the same way. In Washington State we have strong support for all these, and you might think that it's just chaos up here with all those rights. Turns out, we're all just fine. No rampant crime, no church-abandonment, no-free-abortion coupons in the mail, no refer madness.
Libertarians generally have no fiscal policy because we believe in what works well, and opinions on that vary wildly. Every Lib. I've met has been pro-school spending, and has no problem increasing the amount of money spent on police...if they are willing to trade for all the collected funds from their ticketing adventures to be donated to a charitable organization. Libertarians fight governmental systems which encourage bad behaviour. Paying the police to spend whole days hunched over radar guns for profit is on this list.
So ya, we claim that Iran has said they want to destroy us. However Iranians remember us singing that stupid song, they've heard the politicians asking to destroy Iran, and they've read all the boneheaded articles on Slashdot wanting to destroy Iran. So at the same time back in Iran they're trying to fan the flames of the hotheads there by saying "See, the US has said they want to eliminate us as a country!"
Thanks for that stirring report from Iranian counter-intelligence. Knowing that an AC is pals with some physicists who share top details of a highly secret nuclear program makes me totally believe you.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There, corrected that for you. Thousands of years of Persian history doing just this--why should they change now?
I know the point you're trying to make (I've heard this a lot on my political sites -- "hey everyone is crying wolf!") but while I don't support Israel or any of that crap, the reason why Iran doesn't hasn't gotten nuclear weapons on an ideal timetable is simple: sanctions & sabotage.
Sanctions are obvious, sabotage less so, but we know it's included things like stuxnet (google it, since you seem unaware) and targeted assassinations.
until we intervened in their politics to stage a Coup d'état and put an (at the time) friendly bunch of ultra right wing fascists in power. You can find pictures of girls in short skirts and pants from before than. America turned Iran into the right wing religious hell hole it is today, so you'll forgive them if they're a little testy towards us.
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There's no reason to believe that Iran would invite destruction by doing a first strike.
I tend to consider the statement by Iran's minister of defense that the destruction of Israel is a non-negotiable point as a reason. Reasonable people can argue on how good a reason, but holding to the theory that no reason exists is, in fact, delusional, when national leadership of the country has openly declared its intent to annihilate another country.
You place too much weight on rhetorical statements. While Israel neither confirms nor denies that it has nuclear weapons, it is widely believed to possess a substantial arsenal. It is highly doubtful that Iran could eliminate Israel's ability to counterattack.
Islam was founded by a warrior, and its adherents have been chopping-off heads since the 7th century... the 1st "crusade" was NOT an English king riding into the middle east, it was the Muslim sacking of Jerusalem. The Christian crusaders were a combination of nominally-Christian knights and soldiers who desired to help the Christian victims of that struggle, and royals who saw a good (as-in usable) cause to rally people, raise taxes, seek legitimacy (and treasure) etc.
The idea that all would be peaceful in the middle east if only Israel was not there is an anti-historical joke. There have been CENTURIES of Islamic bloodshed across the middle east during which time there WAS no state of Israel. US President Thomas Jefferson (TWO CENTURIES AGO) wrote positively about Islam, then he met reality.... and he was forced to send the US Marines on a mission to Libya to free the Americans who the Jihadis of his day had taken prisoner.... after which he wrote a stern warning to the American people about the dangers of Islam. This is why the Marines sing the line about "the shores of Triploi" in their song.
Let me guess.... you probably think that if Israel did not exist, there would not have been the uber-bloody Iran-Iraq war back in the 1980s....
Israel is just the excuse Jew-haters roll out to divert attention from lots of bad behavior that the Jews have NOT committed
Let's see.... the world's number one supporter of global terrorism for the past 40 years, led by a bunch of Muslim clerics who openly claim they WANT to start a big bloody war between civilizations in order to pave the way for their Messiah and who's most famous quotes are not things like "we choose to go to the moon..." or "ask not what your country can do for you..." etc but rather "DEATH to {fill in the blank}". Yup... let's let a nation that used its own children as land-mine detectors in the Iran-Iraq war, and keeps insisting that when it gets "the bomb" it will use "the bomb" to eliminate the US and Israel, go NUCLEAR.... after all, it's not like the Iranians have refused to cater Pizzas at a gay wedding (THAT would be an OUTRAGE). The Iranians only publicly HANG homosexuals with piano wire nooses and persecute anybody who refuses to live under Islamic law; clearly they are trustworthy with nuclear weapons.
President Obama wants to remove all sanctions (thereby pumping BILLIONS of dollars into their economy and giving them easier access to tech and weapons), remove all UN resolutions (thereby LEGITIMIZING their nuke program which is currently banned by the UN), and then monitor their progress as they develop ballistic missiles and improve their nuclear enrichment processes (pretending that by monitoring, we'll know when they get within a year of "the bomb" and can THEN bomb them if needed to stop them). There is NO precedent for this monitoring working: the entire Western World failed to "monitor" Pakistan, North Korea, Israel, etc successfully and was surprised when each of them crossed the nuclear threshold; in EVERY case the intelligence agencies of multiple Western powers guessed WRONG (they have in fact NEVER gotten this right). The deterrence of "Mutually Assured Destruction" only works if BOTH sides do not want to die..... the whole scheme falls apart when one side is populated by would-be suicide bombers.
Yup.... let's let the sponsor of Hamas and Hezbollah amd most of the world's terrorism get nuclear weapons.... as long as the first bomb doesn not explode before Mr Obama gets out of town and cuts the ribbon on his Presidential Library, it'll all be good.
Just WHAT, exactly, did Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton and Mr Kerry GET in exchange? No Iranian facilities will close, the Iranians have renewed their pledge to eliminate the US and Israel, their economy gets a major boost, their military and tech people get full access to the products of the outside world, and we get???? The US and our friends would have gotten a better deal with Jar Jar Binks negotiating on our behalf. The limp-noodle Mr Kerry was so intimidated by the Iranians that he was afraid to even raise the issue of 3 Americans who are rotting in Iranian jails... he did not even get the Iranian's to delay their annual "Death to America" parades
You know the really wonderful thing about Iran getting nuclear weapons is that their plan is to launch an EMP attack over the US. According to the US Government studies this will result in zero deaths right away, and a 95% death rate within a year. The indoctrinated loons of the political Left will all be dead, and the only people left will be those that prepared for natural and man-made disasters - including this idiocy with Iran, which has stated daily for 36 years that it wants to destroy you, but somehow you Lefties are so retarded you can't ever get the message (because you are implicit racists who think everyone only acts in reaction to what you did or did not do, and all non-Europeans are 'noble savages' of one sort or another). Goodbye lefty loons. You won't be missed by the rest of the World.
I do not usually post on slashdot and have no desire for a UID, but your post was simply misinformed so I responded. If you'd like to email, Skype, Google Hangouts, or otherwise chat with me to talk about it further, let me know. Your attempt at machismo is lost on me and I have no interest in starting an account here to prove my manhood, I just simply hate people who speak with authority about things they know nothing about. If you don't have anything educated to say, do not say it.
Anyway, I am not sure what you are reading in the American papers, but I live here and your facts are all wrong. First of all, there are not defined sides as much as in US elections. We have many parties, among them Likud and Zionist Union as you call it. The Zionist Union and Likud very much engaged in smear campaigns as did every other party. Almost no one beyond the initial stages of their campaigns did anything but smear. At best, they are known for what their general platforms are. The one big issue that they picked other than smearing people was internal, not external security. So in a sense, you are again 1/2 right - everyone engaged in FUD, that was this entire election.
This is evidenced by things like Bayit Yehudi, Likud, Yisrael Beteinu, and others efforts in the media, online, and via illegal texts to say inciteful things and try to persuade people that will keep Israeli Jewish. The Arab parties responding by forming their own block to counter this, abandoning the rest of the non-Arab left. The left of course just simply did the opposite. In general though, no party stood for anything this election and all voters could rely on is their basic platforms.
This was not an election like the US with people giving tons of speeches and air time about other issues. The Netenyahu stunt was exactly that, a stunt and one that frankly here no one cared about and really made him look worse. Likud simply won because unfortunately, no one else actually campaigned and had anything new and concrete to offer. Thus the status quo remained mostly because people were just as fed up with the opposition. Perhaps the only interesting result was that Yesh Atid had as many seats as they did after their leader proved himself to be the world's biggest political moron (we have entire facebook groups that literally prove him wrong/contradictory with his own quotes minutes after he says something).
dancing in the streets. (be careful of painting with too broad a brush) You might be dancing too in similar circumstances. The more progressive Iranians are celebrating the possibility that their country may finally be able to return to the world community. We should all celebrate that this very desirable outcome now may have a chance to occur.
The situation, in absence of this treaty, meant that work on their atomic bomb would continue, and that they would get the bomb eventually.
The Western and Iranian fanatics, who are hoping for (and working to make happen) the Armageddon that they think is prophesied in their holy books, are very upset that "the end times" may not happen in their lifetime (or maybe never will). They are, therefore, reflexively against any move toward peace and stability. We, the rational humans everywhere, dare not surrender to these nuts.
The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
There are countless examples. Often, Islamic nations break their arrangements the next day.
Iran did not respect the embassy.
> The commander of the Basij militia of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said that “erasing Israel off the map” is “nonnegotiable,” according to an Israel Radio report Tuesday
http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-militia-chief-destroying-israel-nonnegotiable/
This list seems very reasonable in summarizing the terms that the US administration would agree to.
No matter what you say about this "deal" the bottom line is the US Government has recognized the right of an Islamic radical regime to enrich Uranium. For years, every single administration (including Obama) said this was a no-no. Now that's magically changed and been labeled "good"
Winston Churchill's comments at the conclusion of the Munich Agreement in 1938 are certainly apropos today, and include this: " . . . we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road;"
Peace.
It worked out well for Australia.
Typically ACs are discounted as trolls who want to spread BS without affecting any long term standing on /., or have people hold them to their word. Asking you to stand by your words is less machismo than it is asking for an honest discussion
From this side of the pond it seems like Netanyahu was playing games and getting far right voters to change their votes to Likud in order to keep him in power. Your reply seems to agree to that, but also ask that we view Israel in its entirety instead of judging you for Netanyahu's actions
I have to say that from an American standpoint, Netanyahu is crossing some acceptable boundaries by putting down the President and exasperating the partisan divide for his own benefit. At this point an ever larger number of Americans are expressing an every greater FU (middle finger raised) to Israel as a whole for Netanyahu's actions. If you care about that, then get a grip on the jerks in your country before asking for benevolence from this one.
Wherever You Go, There You Are
A nation of Chamberlains. Moronic.
Well, you deserve whatever comes next.