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With H-1B Cap Hit, Zuckerberg and Ballmer-Led Groups Press For More Tech Visas
theodp writes: With the FY2016 H-1B visa cap reached in the first week of April (only the USCIS knows how many applications were submitted by outsourcing companies and from Bentonville, AR), it's no surprise that groups like Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC and Steve Ballmer's Partnership for a New American Economy Action Fund are pooh-poohing Jesse Jackson's claims that foreign high-tech workers are taking American jobs, and promoting the idea that what's really holding back Americans from jobs is a lack of foreign tech workers with H-1B visas.
I'm sorry, but Zuckerfuck and Ballmer claiming that there would be more American jobs if only they could bring in more foreign workers to replace Americans is complete and utter bullshit.
This is billionaire douchebags saying they could become even bigger billionaire douchebags of only they could get more cheap labor from overseas.
Will someone put these two clowns into the bear enclosure at the zoo and get rid of them for good?
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Because without those H1B workers fuelling the local economies, Amaricans can't find work.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
for increasing the standards and advancement of curriculum in middle and high schools.the bar is set so low me thinks.
= "none"
The whole thing has been turned into a gigantic cream-skimming operation.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
The things you see if you live long enough
At least until the locals catch-up to the market requirements...or else they risk being put out of a job because they cannot compete.
Let's not forget that foreigners lower average wage because they are willing to work for less.
Better to make sure they cannot enter the US so they can go elsewhere for a long enough time for the US not to be a destination for talent any more.
OMG competing for resources and needing to be useful at a competitive rate, the shock, the horror. Think you can do better? think you deserve more money? prove it by doing better and getting paid more...or keep blaming greedy corporations and "foreigners stealing jobs".
If companies cannot get the talent in guess what? they'll outsource what they can, move away if possible. Demand is the driving force, supply is the solution to meet demand.
Application quotas will not drive the US forward it will instead ensure it gets left behind.
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
Yeah, the only American jobs these H-1B workers create are low-paying jobs like baristas to serve the H-1B dudes coffee and warehouse workers to ship the product.
And yet there are so many CS grads who can't get work. There's other programs to get people in if you truly cannot find someone, H1-B is just indentured servitude and it's time it was reformed or stopped altogether. Prioritize those who want a path to citizenship, and let those who want to make America better come over. Funneling our money to other countries that abuse their workers by programs that incentivize such behaviour is abhorrent.
Now they can't buy another gold-plated yacht because American workers want to get paid what they're worth instead of losing their jobs to indentured servants.
You know if they wanted cheap labor perhaps they could offer on the job training to local people and grow their own talent instead of relying on the broken college system. I'll bet they could both afford to create on campus schools. Sure some people wouldn't cut the muster but many would. At least starting they could pay these people less until they prove themselves worth while.
I'm mulling over this idea: outsource parliament, lobbyists and all those high-paying mega-C*Os. And for good measure all that high-cocaine Wall Street goons too.
We could have all that drama at a fraction of the price. And they would be much friendlier instead of being the sociopaths they are now.
See subject: Can tell you 1 thing - the EASIEST single cost-center to control, is payroll... & THAT is EXACTLY, what this is!
* ALL SO SOME "MANAGER" CAN GET A "BIG-BONUS" (for doing squat in comparison to his workers that actually KNOW what they're doing & actually producing utility in hard goods made for sale, or via services rendered...)
This also takes a tax-paying U.S. Citizen out of the game on that account as well... dumb, real "shoot the USA in the foot" short-term thinking - which IS what you get, when you make companies publicly held items in stock portfolios, vs. having a single say, founding family member, controlling the majority of stock (voting or otherwise etc.) with THEIR NAME on the company - so they ARE interested in its long-term health vs. a quick buck "churn 'em & burn 'em" crapshoot game called "the stock market"...
Keep making the RICH richer using "trickle-down" theory b.s.!
Go on - see where it gets you!
(In the end, this thinking also creates a phenomenon called "Capital Under-Utilization" when 1 man or small group controls 99% of the wealth & disposable income - & NO WAY 1 man or small group can spend as much as "the masses" do, no way... & that IS what you get - unhealthy economic conditions, since healthy economies MOVE MONEY AROUND constantly in LARGE amounts (especially when banks tighten up the reins on loan extensions or raise interest usuriously etc)).
Am I wrong? Gee - I dunno: LOOK @ THE RESULTS OUT THERE TODAY & you tell me!
APK
P.S.=> All so overpaid babysitters that don't REALLY do *anything* you don't when making daily life decisions on what to spend, or payoff, or buy etc. (running a business is just like running your life, & I do both + am SO GLAD I got into my "own show" vs. making others rich from my efforts while they paid me, & any other wageslave, peanuts for it + worked the life out of us)... apk
Or as close as they can possibly get, and the H1-B is edging fairly close.
Of course there's plenty of domestic STEM talent, just not for $45K a year with no benefits.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Amazing how these self proclaimed 'good guys' won't invest in Americans. But rather they want to import cheap labor to keep costs down and have more money in their pockets.
High levels of immigration exacerbate income inequality. End it, and wages must rise in the US. Companies are free to operate overseas. Let them try. Then we'll have real international economic competition.
this sounds like that period of german history when they blockaded cheap American imports of wheat, but were selling the domestic rye production on the international market. then they turned around and complained that the people were starving.
sorry I don't have a year range for it. but it was mentioned in an episode of BBC's connections, the first series.
Just watch these caps get raised (instead of slashed like they should) just because these billionaire mofos can bribe the right people. And face it, that is the ONLY reason these caps would be raised.
Increasing foreign outsourcing increases American jobs? Wow, they really don't live in reality do they. Take away their billions, let them go unemployed for a few years, then let them try and find a job, and see if they are still singing the same tune.
Our company uses over 60% H1B workers, mostly from India. It is astounding how management crows about the money saved with this program. The only problem is, the engineers in charge of projects staffed with H1B-ers finally give up on their lack of technical abilities, glacial work pace, and company protected status, and either do the work themselves, or bootleg competent permanent staffers to get projects completed and out on time.
Not limited by any first-hand knowledge on the subject:
It seems to me quality of education in the US has suffered from religious interference. First by people believing in that which goes against good evidence, then by undermining science education with nonsense like creationism/intelligent design.
Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
Citations needed
I'm on my second h-1b making above 250k base + benefits. I started at around 95k on my first h-1b
O-1, a.k.a. expert, visas have no cap. And according to http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/an-o-1-visa-the-us-do-you-qualify.html, it seems like the types of candidates that would fill these higher paying jobs which Americans can't do would probably qualify as O-1 candidates. If exceptional ability is not required, then hire from within the US and train. That's the contract.
Funny to see that the Walking Dead was brought to an end in the run up to the election.
I suppose what he meant to say all those years ago was
"cheap labor, cheap labor, cheap labor, cheap labor"
Unfortunately both Zuckerberg and Ballmer are just the pus in the pimple of this idea that bringing in H1 visa workers will help america somehow. They are unfortunately not the only robber barons around. If only the Sherman act somehow could apply to facebook and take at least one clown down.
Why doesn't some politician campaign against this selfish behavior and call this jackholes out for being anti-American? Maybe everyone's in on the scam.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
So okay, here's what I don't get.
With illegal immigration, the argument is the immigrants are taking jobs no one here wants to do. I can buy that - they're not claiming that illegal immigrants create jobs.
With H1-B visas, Zuckerburg and Ballmer are claiming that more visas will somehow create more jobs. The only way I can see this happening is if companies start paying job applicants to go away so they can apply for more visas.
Can ANYONE make sense of this idea that H1-Bs create jobs?
1. We want to drive down wages in the US
Rationale: Wages in the US are high compared to the rest of the world. To sell to consumers and customers in the rest of the world, US wages must come down.
2. We prefer to import H-1B's. Opening offices in other countries is not as efficient as bringing skilled people to the US where employers have the upper hand.
Rationale: The US is the only developed country with 'employment at will' This is preferred over 'just cause' used by most of the rest of the world. By importing H-1B's we get the business-friendly legal framework, and we can deport any troublemakers back to thier home country if they rock the boat. Opening offices in
other countries is costly and requires a management to be present in the offshore country, and the timezone differences hamper productivity.
3. The US federal government is one of the few in the world set up to put the interests of the 'opulant minority' ahead of the common people.
Rationale: We can pay lobbyists to promote laws in our interest knowing that we will get favorable laws passed which are not popular with the US electorate.
I'm in systems engineering/administration, and have been through many, many outsourcing/offshoring exercises. I consider myself extremely lucky, having gotten into the tech field in the early 90s and building up enough experience to stay employed despite this. Younger people just graduating, in my opinion, don't have as many opportunities. In addition, us older experienced types (just turning 40 this year, so much fun...) are increasingly jumping from place to place as IT is offshored. Eventually, no one will have anywhere to jump to, and that's my major concern with the abuse of the H1-B program.
I've mentioned before that H1-B is used for two primary purposes. The first is the intended one -- short term hiring of extremely talented people who really possess a skill that can't be found. I've seen this used in product development and other arenas, and I support that use because it really does work. The second is the "cheap labor" use where foreign workers with masters' degrees and above are brought in to do low level coding or administration work. This just drives wages down for everyone. Also, it's not universal, but in my experience the quality of work is much lower simply because the outsourcer doesn't have any insight into how the stuff they're doing fits into an organization's plans. There are far more H1-B cheap labor users than there are talent importers.
Raising the H1-B cap is simply a way to lower wages and make the profession less attractive to native workers who demand a higher salary. I've worked with tons of people, foreign and native, and the reality is that some are awesome, some are OK, and some shouldn't be working in this field...no matter where they came from. The problem comes when offshoring firms compete with each other to see how cheaply they can offer a service, still get away with the awful level of service the customer gets, and make greater profits.
I don't know the answer, beyond setting up a guild/apprenticeship system, which techies would never go for. If we could make entry level labor cheap enough to compete, weighing the cost of having to redo offshored work vs. having it done here, etc. and have a slower wage progression over a career, that might do something. I'm not trying to be an apologist, but I do see some companies' points when they have to hire a "rockstar Ruby developer" for $200K who turns out to not be a rockstar. Improvements in education might help as well, but companies need to understand that their workforce needs to be trained. Not everyone is a drop-in replacement for the guy who just left.
[Citation needed].
They want to drive down wages of tech workers, plain and simple.
Easiest way to do that is increase supply of tech workers.
Citation needed from someone who posts anonymously? Pull the other one ass-hole.
Seriously...you want a citation as an AC just dropping a couple of factoids from the sky yourself. So, and you really should have seen this one coming if you are really making a quarter million plus a year:
Citations needed.
Louisiana Governor Huey Long said (& it's RIGHT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...
* I.E.-> Don't take EVERY *single* crumb off the cake on the table, leave some for the slaves (or they will starve & you can THINK you can get by minus them, till you find out otherwise)... A King is nothing even, minus serfs, in other words.
(Like Long, I have NO problem with a man getting wealthy, by all means, DO so... just don't do it so much it kicks the shit out of everyone you need in doing so! Even Bill Gates & the future head of the Johnson & Johnson pharma empire KNOW it's got to happen, hence the things they're into now (philanthropy etc. & yes, sure - there's tax-shields for foundations, but, IT'S BETTER THAN "DOUBLE-IRISH" TAX EVASION by far...)).
APK
P.S.=> Share & distribute wealth AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE or you get what you get... apk
...if Microsoft had hired 20,000 people instead of fired 20,000 people an said that wasn't enough. With high levels of unemployment it's hard to make the argument that there isn't enough people.
Amounts to nothing more than that.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
No to mention 4 guys living in a 2 bedroom apartment and sharing a car.
Serously, I find it amazing that these companies would pay to move a worker from Calcutta but not from Omaha. "Oh we looked in Silicon Valley's and Seattle's rarified labor markets and couldn't find anyone... so now we must look overseas!" Why don't they hire from Nebraska or Kentucky? Why?....because it never even enters their minds.
Next, H1-Bs don't create jobs because they are not allowed to start a company. The system is designed that way. (OK, legally they can create a corporation on paper, but the condition of their visia is that they are only allowed to be employed by their sponsor and aren't allowed to be employed by or draw salary from their own company, so the practial effect is they can't work for their own start-up). If they are creating companies and they or their famlies are working for the start-up, it's a violation of their visa.
Here's how to quash this BS. Create a national registry of unemployeed STEM workers and make them offer to pay the moving costs to move the employee from whereever to the job site. NATIONAL, not just Seattle and San Jose. Make them hire off that list before they can go overseas. If they can show they offered a job and offered a move to somebody in the US and got turned down six times, then they can do the H1-B thing. Next, if they do hire a H1-B because there is no "qualified" american worker, make them sponsor a scholarship in that field and train somebody until they are qualified. If they hire an engineer on a H1-B, then they must pay the scholorship and internship for an american to make him qualified. That newly minted engineer now goes into the job pool.
my experience with H1-B hired engineers is that they are making $65K/yr to $75K/yr straight out of school with no experience in the North Eastern USA (Not NYC). don't know if this is representative but seems reasonable.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
What is needed is that everyone that hires a H1-B has to report their position and salary (anonymized) back to the government. These statistics will show instead of hiring "the best of world" and paying appropriately, they using the H1-B to hire the cheapest of the world.
They have two valid purposes to me..
1) Temporary staffing for specific technical positions in a region/area poor in those with qualifications. As someone mentioned before, I'm sure the supply/demand curve in Northern California is much different than in Denver, Chicago, Washington DC, Austin/Houston, Boston, Raleigh. Companies need to consider satellite offices in other better markets. I realize this creates another expense, but that's something easily written off/depreciated in taxes.
2) Path to citizenship. This is the biggie to me. What percent of the H1B folks are truly here to earn a green card, and eventually obtain citizenship? This is where you want them to be. If these folks are so skilled and have great earning potential, why wouldn't you want them to leave in 5-6 years? Otherwise it's obvious all the govt and industry wants them for is cheap labor, and the taxes they pay into Fed/State, and Social Security/Medicare (FICA). Shorten the H1B Visa duration, and have a real curated process that puts and keeps them in the workflow to get a Green Card and eventually citizenship. This should weed-out the folks who just want a 5-6 year burst of work in the US then return home with all their money to start a business in their home country.
Why can't we just require that there are no unemployed citizens with the desired skill set in the county before issuing an H1B? It even makes financial sense as the government is footing the bill for unemployment.
...you're missing the point. There are plenty of jobs IF indentured servitude can work out for you somehow...
They already go through the motions. The government DOES NOT ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAW. The law requires them to look for US workers, but they BS their ways through that requirement.
Look at the Cohen & Grigsby video on youtube! They're so brazen in their violating the law, they even post videos on how to do it out in public.
Imagine someone posting youtube videos on how to do tax evasion on your tax form. They'll have IRS agents arresting them in minutes.
But here we are talking about how to evade the immigration law, and nothing happens to them.
of course the cap will be reached each year because the corporations want more H1-B visas each year so they'll ask for more and more each year to get the cap raised - it's not like the tata, infosys, etc companies could have too many - they'll bring over the entire population of India if they have to
I'd take the 45k a year no benefits.... :(
IIRC, there isn't a cap on those, but they're limited to citizens of Canada and Mexico.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I'm tired of this shit.. hopefully a virus will wipe them all out someday.
$450,000 salary and you can hire me.
There are many more competent, qualified employees across the USA. However, many of them may not want to move, or if a move is required, the cost would probably be prohibitive to FB or Msft. By pushing for more visas, they skirt the issue, and have more control over the employees they bring on.
As @hwstar said, "and we can deport any troublemakers back to thier home country if they rock the boat".
If this business mentality continues, the trend toward a virtual workforce slows. And a more virtual workforce is desired as it would help eliminate energy waste in the transportation of your body to an office - a boon for the greenhouse gas haters.
I worked for a consulting firm that wrote a fairly complex mobile app which interfaced to devices over Wifi, Bluetooth, and BLE. Our client decided that they wanted to save money, and rather than just hiring US employees, they decided to hire a bunch of people offshore. Of course, this plan depended on the current team sticking around to "train" these guys who claimed to have years of experience in mobile development. After a few sessions, realizing that they had plagiarized their way through school, and B.S.'ed their way through jobs, we all quit. They were full of bluster, lies, backstabbing and finger-pointing, absolute team killers.
So far, they've done one checkin/bug fix this month, for something the most junior member of my team could have done in 2 days. Yep, you guys saved a lot of money.
Treat the companies that export jobs like the traitors that they are. Don't work for them. Don't help them. You'll be stuck on late night calls with "programmers" basically trying to figure out ways for you to do their job for them, or to point fingers at you if you don't. No amount of money is worth that.
But only after qualified American tech workers and engineers have been hired to fill those positions. Speaking as an unemployed systems engineer, the attitude of MS and Facebook totally piss me off! They'd rather underpay a young, inexperienced, foreign worker than an older, yet fully qualified and capable, American such as myself.
I drive by the state of NJ's office buildings every day...
Not a single American worker comes out of those offices that I know work on legacy systems, vax, vms, ibm, etc...
Your government(fed, state) is the largest employer of foriegn labor, working on the latest cutting edge systems from 30 years ago.
Seems like you are screwed, period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
This is what is happening in the US. Companies are disqualifying American workers so that they can justify hiring foreign workers. They claim that they can disqualify based on any reason: over qualified, requested pay too high, etc. They don't even try to negotiate. They come up with ridiculous requirements that are impossible to meet and then turn around and hire a foreign worker with a different set of requirements.
It's not right.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
is to make the companies that require more workers to FUND the education and HIRE the US replacement for the H1B worker. Make that the cost of an additional H1B visa.
The problem is really the low barrier of entry for H-1Bs. I'm graduating with a Ph.D. in CS from a top 5 school this spring, but I'm still competing with Indians with a B.Sc. for my visa, since I can't apply in the "advanced degree" quota as I won't have my diploma until May. When you finally get to apply with your degree a year from now, you're put in the same category as someone with an MS, which is ridiculous as the US taxpayer has funded my Ph.D. degree with a total of around $250k. The main difference is that MS is typically paid by you, while a Ph.D. is paid by the US tax payers.
I got a job offer from Google, which I accepted, so as a European I can of course go work in their Zurich lab instead of the US, but the salary paid by Google there is actually more expensive for them than hiring me directly to Mountain View. Additionally, I will not pay US taxes nor use my income in the US. While I can fairly easily get a green card with my degree, the main problem is that you're not allowed to apply for a green card when you have a student visa. The only way to get a green card is to either leave the country and wait a year to get the application to go through, or get an H-1B visa and go through the stupid lottery and then if you get it wait a year. If I wait for this in the US, my wife can't work, if I go abroad, my wife will probably find a permanent position for herself, which means that we'll be staying there.
It's essentially a system that only desperate people from the developing world can endure. Everyone else who is qualified will go somewhere else.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2...
Personally, I think Canada is the greatest place to live in the world, but I'm biased!
Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...
I was under the impression that H1B visas were for slaves, not entrepreneurs. My understanding of H1B visas is that they are sponsored and that if you leave the sponsored job, you have to go back to wherever you came from. That's what makes it so attractive for employers. The H1Bers can't complain about low wages and long hours under threat of being sent back to where they were trying to get away from.
Is it different for white people coming from European countries?
Same here. I'm an American engineer doing c++ system programming with PLC and robot programming and vision system design mixed in. I am barely breaking 40k and no benefits or sick / vacation time. At least I would be getting a small raise!
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
"Jesse Jackson's claims that foreign high-tech workers are taking [Black] American jobs"
There, I fixed it.
Lets not kid our selves Jesse Jackson could care less about Americans, well unless your black but then your African-American.
No one is talking about how there is a REQUIREMENT that any H1B workers be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for their occupation, whichever is higher. Maybe we should just enforce that.
(btw, DICE, maybe you need to be screening this stuff a bit better ? iirc, those sort of job postings are illegal)
007: "Who are you?"
Pussy: "My name is Pussy Galore."
007: "I must be dreaming..."
Why don't some of these fucking douchenozzles try to hire developers over 40, or even 30 might be a stretch.
Getting past the gauntlet of 20-something interviewers who formed their opinion the moment a middle-aged developer walks in the door is virtually impossible.
That may be. I haven't tracked salaries recently, but I know we're offering programming jobs to H1-Bs at 60K. The advantage, from management's perspective is that these guys are like indentured servants. They're unlikely to quit, or complain.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
There is a relatively easy solution to this problem - and it involves 3 steps.
1) have Zuckerberg and co clarify exactly why they want the foreign workers. My understanding is that they are claiming Americans do not possess the necessary skill sets required to do the work.
2) increase the numbers of visas with the stipulation that the foreign workers must be paid a salary commensurate with current American wages - Silicon Valley wages, plus benefits.
3) collect tears and watch the entire argument regarding the lack of local skills evaporate
If they want to play that game, we need to fight back.
Isn't it enough already ? How many times we need to hear from his highness zuckerberg that he needs cheap labor to expand the limits of his walled garden, or likes of ballmer (in my opinion, neither character's name deserve to be capitalized) who has no other interest in the pulse of the nation, as long as their companies and the stocks they hold grow exponentially ? This is a travesty. We have seen what happened at the last tech boom. They brought in numerous "highly skilled" work force, mainly from India, and the bubble grew too fast and blew spectacularly. Why do they think that, doing the same will yield a different result ? Oh wait.. They don't ! They will just ride the wave and cash out at the top. When te wave breaks and drowns millions of others underneath, they will light up a cigar and watch the turmoil calm down to create the next bubble. Politicians, who are elected by the people should realize, this is the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. STOP THE MADNESS. Let tech sector grow organically with the resources at hand.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
I am on an H1-b visa right now and can attest to the fact that that most of it is a scam by corporations to push labor cost down.
The reason for this is if you are born in certain countries (India and China), you face an extraordinarily long delay in getting your Green Card during which time:
1. You cannot quit your job and work somewhere else for higher wages without loosing your spot in the Green Card queue.
2. The company can take advantage of your inability to switch jobs by not giving you raises and other benefits you might otherwise have received. This is bad for the US labor market in general since it pushes down wages for every one. US workers are forced to compete with underpaid "bonded" foreign labor and the foreign labor (like me) doesn't like being underpaid. The only winners are the corporations.
3. If I get fired, I have 10 calendar days to leave the US. I have a house, car, family and friends here. Leaving isn't so easy. I have been in the US since 2000 - always following the law. I have been working the same dead end job since 2007. At the current pace, it will take me another 10 years to get a Green Card. Don't I and people like me deserve better?
National average of system programmers is 75k$ according to glassdoor. So start looking for a new job, they are abusing you.
To get an H1B dont we have to provide the same salary as an american citizen before the USCIS will approve the application?
Curious, 40K? Do you work in smaller market(i.e. not SF, Boston, NY, etc)?
"There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and
I was under the impression that H1B visas were for slaves, not entrepreneurs. My understanding of H1B visas is that they are sponsored and that if you leave the sponsored job, you have to go back to wherever you came from. That's what makes it so attractive for employers. The H1Bers can't complain about low wages and long hours under threat of being sent back to where they were trying to get away from.
Is it different for white people coming from European countries?
> Is it different for white people coming from European countries?
That is a very insightful question.
The answer is effectively "yes". The reason is there is per-country cap in the number of employment based Green Cards given out. So, they earmark the same number of employment based Green Cards for Icelandic citizens (population 300K) as they do for Indian citizens. The Net effect of this is White Europeans get their Green Cards almost immediately, Indians and Chinese have to wait a long time (often times decades). This puts US workers at a tremendous disadvantage compared to H1-B labor (from India especially) since US workers have to compete with people who are bonded to their employer until they get their Green Cards - which can often times take decades.
We need more foreign engineers, and yet I and many other citizens don't have a job. This isn't about not being able to find qualified people at home. This is about foreign talent being cheaper! And one of the reasons that they are cheaper is that is much more difficult to verify the claims made in their resume/CV if they are from a different country. Granted, some H1-B workers are brilliant, smarter than I am. But I suspect many of them are flat out lying about their experience to get the job, and come from a culture where that is regarded as business-as-usual.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
It depends on your exact details (e.g. what type of engineering and which city they're in), but $65-75k is pretty low for a software engineer around Boston.
... at the prices we want to pay for them.
The Wal-Mart behavior isn't confined to only Wal-Mart.
If they really have a problem with the cap, couldn't they file form I-140 for their current crop of H1-B's and get them green cards, thus reducing the number of H1-B's below the cap?
In in a modest market in the midwest the wages are closer to 70-80K. The issue is likely that he's doing hardware programming. You're competing with Chinese engineering firms.
Facebook is one of the worst companies for job applicants. They have a thousand different job openings, but an individual applicant is allowed to apply to only a handful every year. Right under the Apply now button, "Please limit to 3 applications."
And they actually enforce it. "You've applied to the maximum number of allowed positions at this time. Please check back again in a few months."
No surprise, they can't find anybody to fill their job openings.
Have a nice time.
I came to the US on an H1B back in 2000. I'm now a US citizen, even married an American. My starting pay back in 2000 was around $60k (Washington DC metro region), and is about twice that today (software engineer/architect) not counting bonuses that can add another 10-20k. I got no complaints about my salary.
Most of us in the technology group are/were H1Bs, and are now responsible for hiring new software developers. I've conducted dozens of interviews over the years (mostly entry level new grads from nearby universities) and noticed the extremely small number of American applicants (salary offered is competitive), while other departments are full of Americans (including IT). Sometimes I don't think our still smallish company would have survived or grown without the H1B program. One interesting factor about the Washington DC metro region is that it has a lot of work that requires security clearance so are only available to Americans, but I think that in turn sets a decent baseline for prevailing wages that H1Bs here benefit from.
They all have the same revelation, "Gosh, we can save money by outsourcing!" but since they don't have to think about the details (and maybe *can't* think about details if some of the one's I've met are any indication), they implement the strategy, move on to a new position in 18 months during the next re-org, and leave the mess for someone else to clean up. The next newly minted moron MBA becomes a hero by undoing the mess (i.e. hiring local), gets his bonus, and then he moves on in 18 months and the cycle starts over again.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Or as close as they can possibly get, and the H1-B is edging fairly close.
Of course there's plenty of domestic STEM talent, just not for $45K a year with no benefits.
That may well be true... but it's clearly not what Facebook and Microsoft are worried about. The way H1-Bs visas work, the employer has to demonstrate that they are paying their foreign employees as well as their American employees, so the strategy you describe really only works for companies who pay all of their employees peanuts. It's possible, perhaps, that the availability of H1-B employees helps them keep their employee salaries down a little, simply by increasing supply. But I doubt it. Based on my experience it's far more likely that they can't hire enough qualified people at any price.
I mean, seriously, you're talking about some of the highest-paying companies with the most employee benefits and perks. How many people do you know who got a job offer from Facebook or Microsoft and turned it down because it wasn't enough money? And how many do you know who hated their Facebook job so much they wanted to escape from it? I actually do know a few people who found the Microsoft culture so toxic that they wanted to leave, but I hear that's changing, and in any case I don't see MS having enormous retention problems among their non-H1-B employees... and they have to treat the H1-Bs essentially the same.
I don't follow the argument that more H1-Bs are needed to provide jobs to Americans, and I'm sure that there are lots of companies that abuse H1-Bs in exactly the way you describe, but Facebook, Microsoft, Google, Apple and other such top-tier US engineering companies are not among them.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
With so many intelligent people on /. you would think that many of you would stop trying to fix symptoms of a problem and start looking at finding the root cause.
If you work for someone else, you are competing to sell your work against others who are desperate enough to sell their similar work for less and under less-favorable circumstances.
Business owners want to pay the least amount of money for the most amount of value produced per employee so this race to the bottom for wages make sense when you realize that the notion of "jobs" are an expressway to poverty and misery.
If you are not creating value which directly benefits yourself then you are selling yourself short. The tragedy is that we have BILLIONS of people for whom selling themselves short is preferable to what they already have.
Create your own thing, or you can scrabble for crumbs from your boss' table.
So how much are you offering, and where is this company?
100K in Silicon Valley is nothing. You'll hand over your entire paycheck to basic living expenses.
So this is pretty much bullsh*the from tech execs. If you really want the talent, and you really want to better the world, bring the job to the talent, don't bring the talent to the job.
Why are H1B visas even permitted if there's an unemployment rate for whatever industry that visa is being requested for? Employ those at home before bringing in even more people which drives down rates and compounds the unemployment problem.
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more extreme acts against one's sovereign or nation." -- Wikipedia
Hey Americans, what's the point of the right to bear arms if you're not going to use it?? Somebody shoot that Zuckerfuck.
FWD.US is a conspiracy created by Mark Zuckerberg to help drive down IT wages in America.
I have no problem with talented immigrants, but American corporations are LYING about the need for those H1B immigrants due to so-called "shortages" of STEM workers in America, and in the offing they are displacing QUALIFIED American workers with those immigrants (in clear violation of the law). Here are some FACTS to counter Zuckerberg's SPIN around his company's (and others, like MSFT, Cisco, Facebook, Google, etc.) cynical attempt to drive down wages. Just look at the recent policy decision to permit H1B spouses to seek work permits in May, 2015 something; that's 150,000 new workers (most of them professionals - and many with IT skills) into an already challenged IT economy. FWD.US is part of a legal conspiracy to drive down tech wages, under cover of the lie that America does not have sufficient STEM talent. Zuckerberg is shilling for his pals, and working against the American IT worker.
FACTS: One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1...
Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con...
Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...
Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or...
How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...
Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do...
Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs...
Unemployment is a problem in America, and so are our sticky problems with immigration. Undercover of helping those immigrants who have so long labored in our agricultural sector, the American IT sector has seen fit to use the sentiment to help agricultural workers to create a Landslide of advantage for itself. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
H1Bs in Sacramento http://www.news10.net/story/ne...
"Even if you cannot admit the truth, the truth is that good security is accomplished by multiple overlapping layers." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
See subject & "Layered-Security"/"Defense-in-Depth" https://www.google.com/search?...
Guess who wrote MOST of the top 10 there of those guides for securing Windows? Yours truly!
(HECK - I was even PAID for winning a contest for writing it, that I didn't KNOW existed @ PCPitstop for it (the Lord works in Mysterious ways - especially "the Lord of HOSTS") -> JANUARY 2008 "How to Secure Windows" http://www.pcpitstop.com/news/... so, how about you by comparison, bigshot bigmouth? Nada, squat, zip, zilch, zero... right? RIGHT!)
* So, what's that you said I quoted from you above again?
APK
P.S.=> You're pitiful, and truly a coward (since you won't post using your "registered 'luser'" name here, & I am certain you have one) - one I've obviously DUSTED before, just as I have now, due to your own stupidity & big mouth... now, you just KNOW I've just GOT to say it, don't you? AH, but of COURSE you do:
"EAT YOUR WORDS" flavored with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, rammed down your throat by your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too... lol!
THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is vs. dolts with NO BALLS, such as yourself - you do this to yourself, every single time you 'try me'... makes me laugh! apk
"Even if you cannot admit the truth, the truth is that good security is accomplished by multiple overlapping layers." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
See subject & "Layered-Security"/"Defense-in-Depth" https://www.google.com/search?...
Guess who wrote MOST of the top 10 there of those guides for securing Windows? Yours truly!
(HECK - I was even PAID for winning a contest for writing it, that I didn't KNOW existed @ PCPitstop for it (the Lord works in Mysterious ways - especially "the Lord of HOSTS") -> JANUARY 2008 "How to Secure Windows" http://www.pcpitstop.com/news/... so, how about you by comparison, bigshot bigmouth? Nada, squat, zip, zilch, zero... right? RIGHT!)
* So, what's that you said I quoted from you above again?
APK
P.S.=> You're pitiful, and truly a coward (since you won't post using your "registered 'luser'" name here, & I am certain you have one) - one I've obviously DUSTED before, just as I have now, due to your own stupidity & big mouth... now, you just KNOW I've just GOT to say it, don't you? AH, but of COURSE you do:
"EAT YOUR WORDS" flavored with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, rammed down your throat by your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too... lol!
THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is vs. dolts with NO BALLS, such as yourself - you do this to yourself, every single time you 'try me'... makes me laugh! apk
I'm a proponent of the "award visas based on descending employee compensation" approach to fixing things, and one of the reasons is that--as a control mechanism--the government can't simply neglect it to death, because it's a core feature of how companies fight for the limited supply.
Obviously there are still ways to try to game the system, but it'd be a hard blow to the big "sweatshop" employers and it'd refocus the visa towards its ostensible goal of bringing in rare-and-highly-qualified individuals.
"Even if you cannot admit the truth, the truth is that good security is accomplished by multiple overlapping layers." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
See subject & "Layered-Security"/"Defense-in-Depth" https://www.google.com/search?...
Guess who wrote MOST of the top 10 there of those guides for securing Windows? Yours truly!
( I was even PAID for winning a contest for writing it, that I didn't KNOW existed @ PCPitstop for it (the Lord works in Mysterious ways - as "the Lord of HOSTS") -> JANUARY 2008 "How to Secure Windows" http://www.pcpitstop.com/news/... so, how about you by comparison, bigshot bigmouth? Nada, squat, zip, zilch, zero... right?)
So, what's that you said I quote from you above again?
---
"A good hosts file is just one layer. It is not a panacea" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
OK: Show me WHERE I said hosts are a "panacea" cure-all? I NEVER ONCE HAVE (BarbaraHudson/TomHudson made that mistake too, same as yourself, & had to "eat his/her words" just like you... lol!)
* FACT: I've been doing this side of computing in security before YOU were out of DIAPERS I strongly wager (& many other arenas in the art & science of computing as well, & DOING WELL @ it no less... that above? A single TINY sample!)
APK
P.S.=> You're truly a coward (as you won't post using your "registered 'luser'" name here & I'm certain you have one) - one I've obviously DUSTED before just as I have now due to your own stupidity & big mouth!
Now, you just KNOW I've just GOT to say it, don't you? AH, but of COURSE you do:
"EAT YOUR WORDS" flavored with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, rammed down your throat by your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too... lol!
THIS?
This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is vs. dolts with NO BALLS, such as yourself - you do this to yourself, every single time you 'try me'... makes me laugh! apk
This is all about keeping tech worker's wages low.
"Microsoft Chief Executive Satya Nadella announced the "streamlining" of the company last July with the news that 18,000 jobs would be cut, representing 14% of the total workforce " - http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-finishes-layoffs-2015-4?IR=T&op=1
This will not end until IT unionises.
"Even if you cannot admit the truth, the truth is that good security is accomplished by multiple overlapping layers." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
See subject & "Layered-Security"/"Defense-in-Depth" https://www.google.com/search?...
I wrote MOST of the guides for securing Windows using layered security!
( I was even PAID by winning a contest for writing it, that I didn't KNOW existed @ PCPitstop for it -> JANUARY 2008 "How to Secure Windows" http://www.pcpitstop.com/news/... so, how about you by comparison bigmouth? Nada, squat, zip, zilch, zero!)
What's that you said I quote from you above again?
---
"A good hosts file is just one layer. It is not a panacea" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @02:47PM (#49431731)
Show me WHERE I said hosts are a "panacea"? I NEVER ONCE HAVE (BarbaraHudson/TomHudson made that mistake too, same as yourself, & had to "eat his/her words" just like you!)
I've been security in computing before YOU were out of DIAPERS I strongly wager (& many other arenas in the art & science of computing as well, & DOING WELL @ it no less. That above? A single TINY sample!).
Lastly: You're MORE than welcome to prove the points I post on hosts are wrong - go for it (You won't, since it can't be done: 100's of trolls like you have tried, & always failed, or ran... lol!).
APK
P.S.=> You're obviously are 1 of the trolls I've obviously DUSTED before just as I have now due to your own stupidity & big mouth!
Now, you just KNOW I've just GOT to say it, don't you? AH, but of COURSE you do:
"EAT YOUR WORDS" flavored with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, rammed down your throat by your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too... lol!
THIS?
This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is vs. those like yourself - you do this to yourself, every single time you 'try me'... makes me laugh! apk
H-1B visas only have to be paid the local market average, not the company average. So you can have high-paid employees and still pay the H-1Bs squat. I worked for 10 years in contract work and that's exactly what all the contract companies were doing. They'd hire in H-1Bs at *exactly* the local salary for the city as reported in the prior year's Fortune or Forbes magazines.
When they were in place, they would never get raises or reviews, and if they complained, they'd pull the visa and have them on a plane home that afternoon. I even had the joy of seeing an H-1B (in the cube next to me) brought in at $54K, but on his first paycheck he got $45K equivalent salary. When he called the company HR department, they responded with, "We are not responsible for typographical errors on your offer letter." When he got angry, she said, "If you don't wish to continue at the rate, I can issue your plane ticket and have security take you to the airport." So he sat and took an illegal $9,000 pay cut because he didn't really have an option.
H-1Bs are used as indentured servants, especially by contracting companies who turn around and bill them out at $50-$60 an hour to other companies. They're pure profit centers.
Oh, and when that company hit hard times, they very illegally cut every non H-1B worker from the contractor payroll.
I've been at three contracting companies that used that identical technique. They hire some citizens to establish a pool so they do lip service to the law about hiring local, then they bring in a gob of H-1Bs at half the price, then they dump all the locals. They end up with pure H-1B work forces, and depress the local economy. I've even seen defense contractors turn away TSI Clearance people in favor of H-1B visas at a discount, because they'd rather pay the $5K for the clearance and $50K for the H-1B than hire a qualified citizen who might earn $80K.
See, that's how it depresses the salaries in the whole market. If I can get headcount "A" at $55K, I'm not going to pay $60K for headcount "B". Most management feel that every STEM person is functionally equivalent. Then they wonder why so many projects fail.
I worked with three H-1B visa "programmers" who had "degrees" from a university in India that doesn't exist. Who in America is going to check that the university has a history or background? These guys laughed about how their "university" was just a guy who ran a business back in New Delhi where you paid the equivalent of about $20 and he paid a bunch of women to pose as university registrars that would answer the phone and confirm your "degree".
One of them hadn't even finished high school, much less college.
Yes, all these stories are anecdotal, and while I could give you the names and places of most of these guys (the ones I remember, anyway) the point I'm trying to make is that the system is being abused from both sides. It's broken, and it needs to be fixed. Tell me, would CEO's be so in favor of it if we had H-1B visas for CEOs?
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Very simple.
If you want to have a visa approved you have to pay a minimum wage.
That's all that needs to be done.
A blog I run for the wealth
I agree that these guys are like indentured servants, but $60K/yr is pretty solid salary. Better than most US college grads...and a good number of CS grads.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
...it's this shit again.
"Partnership for a New American Economy" is more like "Partnership for a Less American Economy"
Just outside of Philly. Worse, I am what is essentially a permanent-temp. The only good thing is because I am paid hourly, I am usually not asked to do overtime. Much better than the poor bastards who work there getting paid much better money in salary but are pretty much expected to work 8:00 AM and leave 10:00 PM or later, weekends included.
Many of the actual permanent people don't go home until after 1:00 AM because it is what is expected. After 3+ years there, even if they would offer me an actual job, I doubt I would take it as I could never work those insane hours without wanting to jump off a bridge after a month or two.
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
Um, an SCI clearance costs more than $5k (more like $50k), and they certainly don't give them to H1B holders.
See subject + "Rinse, Lather, & Repeat" -> http://news.slashdot.org/comme... & it's NOT POLITE TO TALK WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL on MY "not knowing computer security", lol!
That ALONE shows your "estimations" of myself, really PROJECTIONS OF YOUR OWN ISSUES, are inaccurate regarding myself, bigtime!
(After all - proofs right there alone stupid).
Additionally:
You CAN'T prove my points on hosts files wrong and you know it - my guess is you HAVE tried, & failed badly, before - hence your "pure ac posts" (so you can't be identified so I can toss the times you tried to do so before & FAILED, right back @ you).
* A worm like yourself couldn't "make me insecure" if there were a 1,000 like you vainly trying to "hassle me"... lol!
(You don't HAVE what it takes...)
Face facts: You *WISH* you were me - & you have no balls...
APK
P.S.=> Lastly - I had to repost yesterday, many times: /. was jammed up yesterday (not my fault), so I simply resubmitted exactly what's in the link above so you can continue EATING YOUR WORDS on it stupid (you messed up badly and you know it)... apk
"you are so much smarter than anyone" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @09:29PM (#49434689)
See subject: No, you're just dumb & ate your words http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
"when the truth is really on your side, you need to be an asshole to demonstrate tha" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 08, 2015 @09:29PM (#49434689)
See the link above: It's TRUE you had to "eat your words", troll (lol) & due to blatant errors you made, shooting your mouth off... lmao!
* LMAO - now THAT "took the cake", when he's the completely off-topic illogical ad hominem attack slinging troll who started it all here http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
(I just made him "eat his words" due to their blatantly ERRONEOUS content, using facts that are undeniable, concrete, & verifiable - the best weapon there IS, vs. weak puny trolls like him...)
APK
P.S.=> Puny INSECURE little trolls (obviously he is since he's stalking me by ac posts etc.) are all the same - dimwitted, & EASY to dispatch, using facts + truth... apk
Tax Corporate Revenues, Not Profits;
H-1B issues will be solved;
Casteism
See subject: It's better vs. losing "eatin yer words" like you http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* Now, have some manners - Don't talk with your mouth full (of your words you're eating, lol...) & don't start things you can't finish, successfully!
You FAIL - accept it (you only did it to yourself).
APK
P.S.=> Is it MY fault you blundered SO badly in that link above that I can't lmao @ you for it? No... apk
As many commented, some of us have spent an entire career working in IT. What did it get us? More government regulation, elimination of local/US jobs because H1B people were cheaper and bolstered the bottom line (NOT). Projects fail more than any time in my history. Myself and many of my former colleagues have been unemployed for 5+ years, run out of any hope of any compensation and we live at or slightly above the US poverty level. Great work American Corporations (who all move your headquarters offshore to AVOID compliance and taxes). And when we even can apply for a job (not even senior level) we are rejected because we're overqualified. Yep! Overqualified but unemployed!!! I've also heard that one's death reduces the unemployment rolls, too.
You are correct that a H-1B cannot get a SCI clearance, however the company can get around this in two ways, namely by getting them an LAA (Limited Access Authorization - which is a sort of provisional clearance for foreign nationals that can do anything below Secret level clearance) or they can get a DSP-5 license, which is a waiver for "exporting" classified information. In this case, the export is to the H-1B group working in their company.
Finally, the more common way is to use H-1Bs as code monkeys to work on every non-classified sub-system, or to generate databases, algorithms, and networks for processing non-classified data in the same format as the classified data will be using down the road. This lets them do all the coding without ever exposing them to anything that requires a clearance.
I live in an IT community stacked with defense contractors who know every trick in the book to get around limitations. Especially the kind that lets them line their pockets with more of that sweet, sweet government contract money.
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Not when law firms like Cohen & Grigsby would rather stack the deck against citizens.
There are plenty of smart US citizens, who hail from many cultures and walks of life, that are qualified for such work. Their only problem is that they're US citizens, which throws your sports terminology out the window.
Guest workers are a problem by their own existence - as they attempt to claim a shortage while creating a larger surplus.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.