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Report: Internet Users Feel Powerless To Protect Their Privacy From Corporations

Mark Wilson writes: A paper produced by a team at the University of Pennsylvania confirms something many people have probably thought true for some time: the notion that internet users are unhappy with the way their privacy is undermined by advertisers and online companies, yet feel there is nothing they can do about it. While marketing companies like to present an image of customers who are happy to hand over personal information in return for certain benefits, the truth is rather different. Rather than dedicating time and energy to trying to stop personal data from being exploited, people are instead taking it on the chin and accepting it as part and parcel of modern, online life. It's just the way things are.

108 of 236 comments (clear)

  1. Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Is the article implying that there IS a way to protect our privacy? How?

    1. Re:Wait, what? by msauve · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "How?"

      Realize that the Internet is not the web. Install an ad/tracking blocker. Avoid, or delete your accounts on Facebook/Google/Apple/"social media". Pay for a domain(s), and use different email addresses for different accounts. Use a VPN. Regularly clear cookies in your browser. Vote for politicians who "get it," and truly understand the Internet, surveillance and privacy.

      Donate to the the EFF.

      There's more, which is left as an exercise for the reader.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Realize that the Internet is not the web.

      How 90s of you. Nowadays it's "Facebook isn't the web".

    3. Re:Wait, what? by Dracos · · Score: 2

      But those only work in FireFox. If you really want to increase your privacy, add those hostnames to your hosts file. Mine contains ~131k tracker/adserver hosts mapped to 0.0.0.0 (there's even about a dozen for facebook). This doesn't just drop the served mal-content, it prevents requests to those hosts at the system level for all browsers or other software.

      As a consequence I rarely see any ads on the internet and my browser ad-blocking/privacy plugins have a very light workload.

    4. Re:Wait, what? by tlambert · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is the article implying that there IS a way to protect our privacy? How?

      (1) Hack the company's servers
      (2) Delete the data they have collected
      (3) Hope the do not detect the intrusion before their rolling backups overwrite their pervious backups which include your data
      (4) ???
      (5) Profit!

      Not that this is really recommended; they are bigger than you, legally speaking.

    5. Re: Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Someone with a solution for your problem will be here shortly. Please hold.

    6. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't trust things that are free, as a given. If you can't play that nifty game/app of the month on your phone/tablet/computer with internet turned off, then you need to rethink your download.

      TANSTAFL

    7. Re: Wait, what? by Dracos · · Score: 2

      The list I use is the result of merging three separate adserver blacklists about a decade ago. It honestly doesn't require all that much maintenance... if I see an ad, I find the hostname it came from and add it to the hosts file. I think I've made 3 such edits in the past year or so.

    8. Re:Wait, what? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      You missed the point.

      Consumers don't want to fuck with your suggestions. They just want to do their particular thing and be safe.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    9. Re:Wait, what? by CaptainDork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your use of the word "sheep" is the problem.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    10. Re:Wait, what? by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      This IS a browser issue on the surface. I can't see why a strengthened browser can't be available with full privacy default settings, spoofing 3rd party cookies to enable websites dependent on them to work.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    11. Re:Wait, what? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      So, your sails have no wind.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    12. Re:Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These methods are not effective, and ultimately they are doomed. The reasons are obvious:

      1) Their incentive to track us is stronger than our incentive to resist.
      2) Not enough people will do these things, so tracking will continue to be profitable, hence will continue to be done.
      3) You have no moral nor legal right to privacy when engaging in business transactions.
      4) Their lobbyists are better funded than yours.

      You can create some friction by resisting, but mostly the only one feeling the heat will be you. Tracking is part of how the world works now. It is one of the many aspects of reality that we just have to accept. You can no more stop tracking than you can stop scientific progress or force a Republican to be reasonable.

    13. Re:Wait, what? by Burz · · Score: 1

      "How?"

      Realize that the Internet is not the web. Install an ad/tracking blocker. Avoid, or delete your accounts on Facebook/Google/Apple/"social media". Pay for a domain(s), and use different email addresses for different accounts. Use a VPN. Regularly clear cookies in your browser. Vote for politicians who "get it," and truly understand the Internet, surveillance and privacy.

        Donate to the the EFF.

        There's more, which is left as an exercise for the reader.

      Add 'HTTPS Everywhere' extension to the list also.

      A list of tracker blockers:
          Disconnect
          Blur
          Ghostery

      A 'public' VPN like privateinternetaccess.com will give you more anonymity than a VPN you run yourself.

      Fingerprinting is an issue that I don't believe any of the above extensions address. Techies like us can have pretty unique browser fingerprints due to Linux and unusual plugins. These two extensions mask the unique information about browser software:
          Blender
          'Disable Plugin & Mimetype Enumeration' (Firefox)

      Finally, if you *really* want privacy you have to have a secure computer. Compartmentalizing your casual browsing to untrusted domains in a high-security OS like Qubes is your best bet against having your private data stolen.

    14. Re:Wait, what? by cyberchondriac · · Score: 2

      The only problem I've run across in using your own domain for email is that some places won't accept an email address using an "unknown" domain when creating an account. Case in point, Guitar World magazine, apparently they'll only accept accounts with an email from an ISP, or from Yahoo, Hotmail, or Gmail. It took me a few attempts to figure that out, because they won't even tell you why they won't send a registration activation email to that address.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    15. Re:Wait, what? by msauve · · Score: 2

      So, if you own company "joesguitarstore.com" and want to use your work email, you're screwed? Sounds like a company to not do business with, because they're obviously customer hostile.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    16. Re:Wait, what? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      When is Hillary heading to Gitmo?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    17. Re:Wait, what? by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Well, I wouldn't call it doing business with them, I just wanted to be able to post on their forums and make comments on articles, but yeah, it's a pain in the arse.
      I would assume it's their way of combating spambots but they're too heavy-handed with that approach.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    18. Re:Wait, what? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Poor implementation on your part.

      The other end offers much a more sustained volume of hot air.

      So, fail.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  2. death/taxes by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    and those Facebook pictures.

  3. I just never give them my info. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Herman Munster at 1313 Mockingbird Lane is probably less than pleased with me though.

    1. Re:I just never give them my info. by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 1

      I notice the ads on Slashdot in the the "AdChioces"/Google slots are recommending my local bank and other sites I've been exploring recently... that's more effective than the Web 1.0 sponsors.

      Slashdot used to have tech companies in those slots, now it runs general interest or your interest ads.

    2. Re:I just never give them my info. by jetkust · · Score: 1

      Then they will just take your info. What's your next move?

  4. Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by x0ra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everybody expect free services. Nobody want to pay for anything, and they all expect privacy. Maybe it's time to wake up. Facebook, Google, Amazon or Apple are not charities, they are for-profit companies. They must find way to monetize their users' data. At the same time, Facebook probably wouldn't have been if it had been paywall'ed.

    1. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by Scutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are plenty of paid products where you, the consumer and purchaser, are still treated like a commodity. Just because you handed over money for it doesn't mean you won't be sold to the highest bidder. It's easy to just say "wake up", but I suspect that you missed the point.

      --

      "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    2. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by Nyder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everybody expect free services. Nobody want to pay for anything, and they all expect privacy. Maybe it's time to wake up. Facebook, Google, Amazon or Apple are not charities, they are for-profit companies. They must find way to monetize their users' data. At the same time, Facebook probably wouldn't have been if it had been paywall'ed.

      And yet Facebook/Google make most their profits on users data. Apple sells hardware/software mainly and Amazon is just trying to be the goto place for everything.

      I think the problem is, we aren't getting a good enough return on the data we are giving them. I don't feel my data has done anything to improve my life or online services, but I sure as fuck know there are a lot of people living the cushy life by selling mine & others user data.

      While google does provide some services, not exactly sure anyone is getting there money's worth using them.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    3. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Everybody expect free services. Nobody want to pay for anything, and they all expect privacy. Maybe it's time to wake up. Facebook, Google, Amazon or Apple are not charities, they are for-profit companies. They must find way to monetize their users' data.

      Technically, there is no "must" there. They must find a way to monetize their users in order to remain in business, and yes, this often involves monetization through advertising. But non-targeted advertising, while less valuable than targeted, still has a non-zero value. Targeting is just a means of maximizing the profits that they will be getting from their advertisers.

    4. Re: Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Restricting it to people that sign up would be a huge step in the right direction. Realizing that there needs to be actual consent and ability to control the data used would help as well.

      Right now it's an arms race and ads wind up blocked completely in part because of the spying.
      Targeted ads to the content should be sufficient. Tracking where I go ensures that I will never willingly click on an ad.

    5. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 1

      Amazon lowers the market price on things without you noticing. They recently announced that they're getting a better deal on shipping wires and such, so they can lower the prices of wires at Amazon Prime, and that should result in Best Buy lowering their prices similarly because their $10 minimum wire cost is based on Amazon's price.

      You might not feel like you're beating the market, but you're beating the past prices on a lot of things there.

    6. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yea, when my ISP is selling out my data even if I don't use any of those services, and most marketplaces I may buy at share data and sell it, it really just does seem pretty tough to stay away. Even on a new computer that I haven't logged into anything on, a simple serach for a product an Amazon will show in banner ads to months. You definitely get the feeling that without going fairly far out of your way with VPN, destructing cookies, special browsers, etc that you're pretty well tracked. I can do that at home, but not from everywhere I might log on. Makes it tough.

    7. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by Etherwalk · · Score: 2

      Amazon lowers the market price on things without you noticing. They recently announced that they're getting a better deal on shipping wires and such, so they can lower the prices of wires at Amazon Prime, and that should result in Best Buy lowering their prices similarly because their $10 minimum wire cost is based on Amazon's price.

      You might not feel like you're beating the market, but you're beating the past prices on a lot of things there.

      Yes, because they're screwing over their "partners." They make agreements not to poach certain products and then go in and come in right under their partners' prices on every other product. They're chasing margins, which is good short-term for value but forces all competition out of business. Ebay is the only competitor to amazon out there and they're not even trying to put themselves in the same class.

    8. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The only answer is to actively poison you data with things like 'Track Me Not' https://cs.nyu.edu/trackmenot/. Plus false information in social media (obviously good not bad false information), run public and private social media and public real name, private only a nick name close friends and some family members know. It is way easier to poison undesirable information about you than to get rid of it. So don't forget a specific junk mail web site as a trial period for new registers and have fun with fictitious family members and addresses and contact details.

      Reality is, want better privacy than manage your own social media, use ISP email, start looking into encryption (something singles can be slack on but families should most definitely not be) and when it comes to minors keep them will clear of corporate invasive perversion, there are sick people in there and they should not be trusted with you children's comings and goings nor what means are most effective at manipulating them.

      The high degree of privacy invasion is not just about targeting ads at you the reflect past interests but also monitoring which adds you can be most influenced by, so they can more readily suck you into buying highly profitable crap products.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    9. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      I think we need clearer language for talking about this. Does Google actually sell your user data? Well, kinda, depending on your definition...

      They sell advertising based on your web searches and the content of your email. They don't sell your actual data, they sell access to keywords that they extract from it but don't give to the advertisers. So I'd say that isn't selling your personal data, in the same way that if I visit any random web site they can look at the search terms I used (from the referrer header) and display advertising based on that. In fact that example is worse, since they can associate your data with your IP address and anything you do on the site.

      On the other hand Google does seem to lay claim to your personal documents and photos:

      When you upload, submit, store, send or receive content to or through our Services, you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content. The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones.

      That last sentence seems to suggest that they won't sell your data, but does allow them to commercially exploit it in other ways. But you said "make most of their profits on user data", so I'm not sure that is correct.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by MTEK · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who thinks about this whenever the doctor's office requires a signature that says they can disclose information with certain third parties?

      I mean, it's not like they're sharing my info with some sleazy marketing company (right??). Regardless, I usually freeze up a bit at the front desk and wonder "WTF does this entitle you to do??!".

    11. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by grumling · · Score: 2

      You do realize the FBI can lock you up in jail, or even kill you if you "resist" arrest, right?

      Your software analyzer can't do that. I'd say that's a fairly huge difference.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
    12. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Oh your doctor's office might not be doing it directly, but whatever service they signed up with to manage their data sure as hell is.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    13. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by swillden · · Score: 1

      But non-targeted advertising, while less valuable than targeted, still has a non-zero value. Targeting is just a means of maximizing the profits that they will be getting from their advertisers.

      Not really. Targeting is harder and more expensive to do well than non-targeting. Advertisers really don't care whether they're buying targeted or untargeted advertising, they just want a good return for their advertising spend... it's the same to them whether their dollar of ad spend that generates two dollars of revenue is doing it by displaying a dozen carefully targeted ads or ten thousand untargeted ads.

      All of this means that advertisers and on-line ad services are just as happy to use and deliver, respectively, untargeted ads. So why are targeted ads so popular? Because users prefer them. Specifically, users prefer fewer ads and less visually-intrusive ads. This means site owners prefer fewer ads and less visually-intrusive ads. This means users and site owners prefer targeted ads over non-targeted ads, because achieving the same ad effectiveness without targeting means lots more and bigger ads.

      Remember what on-line advertising looked like pre-Google? Blinking banner ads everywhere? For that matter, take a look at the typical "36 weird ways to X" web site, with it's massive number of ads per page and content spread out over 40 pages. That's what untargeted online advertising looks like. There are exceptions, because some sites are so narrowly targeted that advertising on that particular site is all the relevant advertisers need to do. But that only works with narrowly-focused products on narrowly-focused sites. In all other situations, untargeted means massive ad volume.

      I don't want to see the web go that direction. If we want an alternative to targeted advertising, it should be paid services. Untargeted advertising sucks for users.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re:Do you mean "Internet Products", right ? by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 1

      Amazon sells new, eBay is mostly used/refurbished stuff. They don't really compete.

  5. I think so by anavictoriasaavedra · · Score: 1

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I use Firefox with the following add-ons: AdBlock (no whitelist), Better Privacy, Google Analytics Opt Out, HTTPS-Everywhere, Noscript, Privacy Badger and Self-Destructing Cookies.

    1. Re:I think so by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 5, Funny

      Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I use Firefox with the following add-ons: AdBlock (no whitelist), Better Privacy, Google Analytics Opt Out, HTTPS-Everywhere, Noscript, Privacy Badger and Self-Destructing Cookies.

      How are we supposed to know what add-ons you use?

      --

      Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

      Vote for Bernie in 2016!

    2. Re:I think so by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Sure I do. But not with my accounts, I'm not crazy. There's thousands out there, protected with weak passwords...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:I think so by reve_etrange · · Score: 1
      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    4. Re:I think so by dbitter1 · · Score: 1

      How are we supposed to know what add-ons you use?

      Work for the NSA?

      --
      For us carnivores, "Sucking the marrow out of life" isn't a transcendentalist philosophy but a practical instruction.
    5. Re:I think so by danagin · · Score: 1

      One thing that non of this will do he help you from IP address identification. Lookup aids, or 'early signs of x desease' .... It's not hard to tie that to a name based off of the scripts that you do allow to run on other sites that have your name. This is all too confusing and hectic, but I have levels in my head of what I'm ok with going to whome. I use 3 instances of firefox portable, and IXquick's proxied results. 1 ff portable is for social media, which I rarely use these days. 1ff portable is my general browser that I only log onto things where my real name and personal credentials aren't used. The last is for email and using IXQuick. IXQuick will allow you to search through privately and view pages through their proxy. This means that when the page loads on your screen, the IP address that requested the page is IXQuick's. The only problem there is that you can't use javascript on a proxied page, but that's not a huge deal. I think my next step will be to use a VM that is always using a VPN to deal with my personal confidential stuff, I just hate the idea of buying more windows licenses for this purpose.

  6. DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you want to preserve your privacy, then DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE!

    1. Re:DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      That's only an issue if your penis can identify you, right? That is, if other people have seen it. This being slashdot, I don't think most of us have to worry about that.

      However, if by cock you meant rooster, what's the big deal?

    2. Re:DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by Z00L00K · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's probably the least of your or my problem. It just shows that you are a narcissist, but if you want to make a fool out of yourself you are welcome.

      A much larger problem is the ability for corporations without my consent track my patterns on the internet and can therefore be able to connect me to political opinions, sexual preferences and which bank(s) I use and possibly also my bank account number and credit card numbers.

      Disabling of third-party cookies do help to some extent, enforcing session-based cookies as well, but not completely. AdBlock can also help a bit. At least it blurs the image of me on the net a bit for the information gatherers.

      All those sites like "doubleclick", "tradedoubler" and similar - they don't provide me as a user with any benefits at all. And there are a massive amount of such sites and very few are in the default blocklist of AdBlock.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For the technically apt nerd, the solution is RequestPolicy which is a granular domain-based request control plugin for Firefox. You can set it to block all cross domain requests by default and then selectively enable those that are part of the site's functionality. Unfortunately, with the advent of CDNs and whatnot, most websites (such as Slashdot) will be entirely broken and making them work will require a fair bit of knowledge of how the web operates under the hood in some cases.

    4. Re:DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      If you must refrain from exercising a right or priviledge in order to preserve that right or priviledge, then you don't have that right or priviledge.

    5. Re:DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE! by MTEK · · Score: 1

      Probably doesn't hurt to regularly update one's host file with a blacklist. The one I've been using is this:

      http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/ho...

  7. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why would they feel powerless... When they are already essentially willingly giving out their personal information on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and other social media services...

    1. Re:Really? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Willingly? Hardly. But it gets increasingly hard to avoid these things.

      By now you have companies that check your FB account. And if you don't have one and they can't find anything about you, they won't even consider you. Because, hey, if you don't have FB, you probably have to hide something, and we don't want you!

      It's also getting increasingly hard to sign up for anything without FB because companies offload the work of holding an account for you to FB or other such "services".

      And it's getting worse.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Willingly? Hardly. But it gets increasingly hard to avoid these things.

      By now you have companies that check your FB account. And if you don't have one and they can't find anything about you, they won't even consider you. Because, hey, if you don't have FB, you probably have to hide something, and we don't want you!

      So glad I don't live in your country. I don't have FB - because I cannot be bothered. I have other uses for my time! Still, a company googling my name will find lots of information, as I don't live anonymously on the Internet. I usually use my full name, no nicknames/handles. And if they don't find what they want - they can ask during the interview.

      I honestly cannot understand why a facebook account could be important during hiring. (Other than NOT having something really dubious there.) If "no facebook" means you're hiding something, how about a largely unused facebook account with a 5 year old picture and no comments after the first week - because the owner didn't bother using the account? Surely, there are quite a few accounts like that. People too busy living their life, and no interest in commenting on each others dinners on facebook.

    3. Re:Really? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What? You didn't like Facebook? What kind of antisocial weirdo are you? We don't want you in our company!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  8. in other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Internet users by the hundreds of millions give all their personal communications to online ad companies, including Google and Facebook. They have cheerfully gone from running their own mail programs to using Gmail or Ymail for everything. They gladly blab the private details of their lives, with photos, to Facebook and Twitter. They kept visiting signs once banner ads started... and then ran javascript from ad companies. They fall all over themselves every time there's a new service that vacuums up all their data, when there's no reason for that data to leave their own computer.

    Sorry, internet users, but fuck you. The internet didn't used to be like this. You are the ones who supported turning the fucking thing from a true peer to peer network into a centralized, data-mined clusterfuck of overcommercialization and profiling. I don't want to hear how you don't like it. You made all the choices that led here.

    OK, to be fair: not every last one of you. But enough that those who didn't were a rounding error and could be ignored.

    1. Re:in other news... by grumling · · Score: 2

      Exactly, however it seems the acceptable business model is to sell eyeballs, not product. The first company that can provide me the same product as Gmail (ubiquitous email across multiple devices, all updated in real time), without the tracking and forced advertising gets my money. But anyone coming to a VC meeting with a pay-for-play product is going to be laughed out of the room.

      --
      "Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
  9. Free and IoT by geekmux · · Score: 2

    So the Facebook generation that demands every online service be priced at how-fucking-dare-you-charge-me-for-this is now claiming there's nothing that can be done about the privacy they blindly signed away 473 EULAs ago.

    Oh, that's rich.

    Don't worry though. If you thought this was bad, I'm certain IoT will make these privacy concerns look like a 12-year old boy with a telescope.

    1. Re:Free and IoT by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Its a thing now. It has been for years. Just like we had server clusters for years before anyone called it a 'Cloud'

      --
      Good-bye
  10. Connecting the dots... by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's one thing that your supermarket knows what food stuffs you bought recently. And a local sports store knows what socks & running shoes you bought recently. And a local electronics store knows what multimeter you bought the other day. But all these stores normally don't have that data from each other. They can't connect the dots, unless they are all part of the same company AND you used your frequent shopper card.

    So each store only gets a limited 'view' of your habits. Only the place(s) where you buy food, might suspect your eating habits. Only that sports store might suspect your sports habits. Etc, etc. Okay, your bank may get a list of transactions at several places, but not get all details about what you bought or did at each place. This is how it is expected in the 'offline world'.

    Online tracking might feed the data into a bigger mother company, advertisers that aggregate data, companies that 'voluntary share' some operational data, etc. Sure, there might be laws against some of that sharing. Sure, privacy policies may lead you to believe such things are out of the question. But can you rely on that? Are you sure?

    If not, this allow painting a much more detailed picture about one's life. Would you want such a detailed picture to be painted? Would you even want the records to be kept that allows this to happen? For me personally it's "NO" for the most part, perhaps on the fence for a few aspects, and the word "creepy" comes to mind. Not exactly matching with what's already technically possible, and what some companies are known to be doing these days (yep FB comes to mind. But they're far from alone).

    1. Re:Connecting the dots... by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My local grocery store once explained to me why they didn't use a discount card, they already recognized me as I walked through the door, and knew the receipt was mine because I was the only one going though three packages of Vanilla Oreos per week. See, when big stores exist in lightly populated areas, the manager knows who the good customers are. My father and I had a good idea what prices were going to lower two weeks ahead because we saw the sale prices at the printing and database companies we worked for, and were sure our store had the deepest discounts in the chain.

      BTW, former next door neighbors... the two of you were on the cover of a magazine there the last time I visited that store... with a story that can't possibly be true!

    2. Re:Connecting the dots... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's one thing that your supermarket knows what food stuffs you bought recently. And a local sports store knows what socks & running shoes you bought recently. And a local electronics store knows what multimeter you bought the other day. But all these stores normally don't have that data from each other. They can't connect the dots, unless they are all part of the same company AND you used your frequent shopper card.

      That was the 90s. Now your supermarket, sports store, and electronic shop all sell your purchase history to a broker like ChoicePoint or Acxiom, and in turn buy back more bits and pieces about you that they want to know. Some of them sell (or give) your purchase history to the government to use as part of some nebulous anti-terror profiling.

      Each of those stores might also be crunching their own data and making inferences about you, and selling those *inferences* on to other companies. Remember the guy who went ballistic when Target mailed his teenage daughter some coupons for baby and maternity items? And it turns out Target was right, his daughter was pregnant, and they figured that out based on a pattern of non-baby-related purchases like a bigger purse? Don't think for a moment they didn't sell that girl's "customer_is_pregnant" record right on to the data warehousing companies with everything else.

      All of this shit is out of control, both online and offline. America is in dire need of laws to protect consumers from this type of massively intrusive information gathering, trading, and brokering. But we'll never see legislation like that as long as the government itself is one of the biggest purchasers of this data.

  11. Re:They're right by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That sounds like the first part of that twelve step bullshit.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. ...Because it's NOT YOUR JOB! by tlambert · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you want to preserve your privacy, then DON'T PUT PICTURES OF YOUR COCK ONLINE!

    As we discovered in the John Oliver interview with Edward Snowden, it's the NSA's job to put pictures of your cock online, not yours!

  13. Re:They aren't even trying by bmo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But you don't have to use Facebook... ...to be tracked.

    You know all those "share via social media" buttons you see everywhere? Do you think they just exist to make it easy for users to repost content? No, they're for tracking anyone and everyone who goes to those sites (i.e., all) who don't have the trackers filtered through the likes of PrivacyBadger and ad-blockers.

    And the ratio of users that use those is minuscule enough that the users of the blockers themselves (like me) can be tracked via browser fingerprinting ridiculously easily anyway.

    The general population is powerless against the corporations unless they simply give up entirely and go dark. What a nifty fucking choice, eh?

    Get down off your high-horse, Lord Farquaad.

    --
    BMO

  14. Re:They aren't even trying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm gonna summon APK, but blocking Facebook's tracking (and Google's, which is even more pervasive) is not difficult, at least for now. If hosts files and privacy-enhanced DNS servers are too much to ask, there are browser plugins. You mentioned some. My point is that the people who feel so powerless now are exactly the ones who got us into this mess, because they were and are so complacent about every invasion into their privacy if they can only avoid learning anything about anything. If people treated shoes like they treat computers, most people would have to buy shoes with Velcro fasteners because they wouldn't even consider learning how to tie a shoe.

  15. Hmm by koan · · Score: 1

    I think this must affect younger users more, having been around when there were no cell phones or computers I don't feel as trapped.
    This powerlessness I don't understand though, all you have to do is not use the stuff.

    Just how brainwashed are we?

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:Hmm by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      "all you have to do is not use the stuff."

      Some of the "stuff" is just too damned useful. If you belong to any club, organization, political group or whatever, FB has become a very handy planning and organizing tool. Nobody really wants to manage lists of e-mail addresses anymore, let alone a telephone calling tree like we did in the past.
      Having a portable device that gives you at least internet access, a telephone, calendar, GPS and camera is also extremely useful.

      I think that being cognizant of exactly what you're trading off in terms of privacy vs. functionality is the important thing. I'm not quite ready to retire to the country and become a subsistence farmer.

    2. Re:Hmm by koan · · Score: 1

      I think that being cognizant of exactly what you're trading off in terms of privacy vs. functionality is the important thing. I'm not quite ready to retire to the country and become a subsistence farmer.

      2 things wrong here, one is you feel "being cognizant" is possible for most people when all the evidence shows otherwise.
      Second you go form one extreme to the other, either you're using Facebook or you're a subsistence farmer.

      Silly way to debate, why even bother?

      To sum up your statement easily just say "I'm trapped", because as you said you can't function without it.

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  16. Tricky dilemma: but there are things you can do. by evilrip · · Score: 2

    It seems to me that the problem is that the user does not want put in the effort to learn about the tools and services they are using. It's conceived as overly complex, probably because of a combination of factors like zealots, technical jargon, corporate bullshit, etc. Even when it is not it's conceived as intrusive. The fact of the matter is that humans are stubborn creatures, and many humans think that when they graduate they don't have to learn anything new, ever. Most people don't have advanced degrees in economics and related fields to advertising, so they simply cannot comprehend how data mined they are being and why it is bad, often because off short-sightedness, "if you have nothing to hide .." comes to mind. Narcissism takes precedence to security with a lot of people, evidently, just look at facebook membership rates and the amount of facade-building (fake/phony/w/e) profiles with all kinds of information others with different frames of mind can use and abuse. The only reasonably safe software is software you can and _do_ audit, where you can access source code to see what programmers have done. No closed source ecosystem can ever provide this. Stop putting everything in services, cloud, whatever and learn about the tools you are using, computers are good at numbers, so you can assume they can be useful to encrypt your stuff to keep it safe, too. RTFM. You can do something. You can do many things. Turn on, tune in, drop out: Would you leave your laptop with a total stranger? No? Why would you leave your data with total strangers then? $0.02

    --
    "To err is human, to forgive, beyond the scope of the Operating System"
  17. Memo: People hate paying bills. by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes willingly, nobody has a fucking gun to your head to use this stuff, lack of willpower in a toy store is not "oppression".There's no trickery in any of this, you voluntarily (and often eagerly) sign up for a service and pay for what you use in either dollars, eyeballs, rabbit skins, whatever. Bitching about the privacy costs of of a FB account is like bitching about the electricity bill while sitting in an air-conditioned room, it will always be modded up because people hate paying bills.

    Of course government spying is a whole different ball of wax, nobody signed up for that!

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    1. Re: Memo: People hate paying bills. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Spoken like somebody that is a complete loser.

      I've paid a huge price personally and professionally over the years for not having an Internet presence. Most networking is done online and most people can't be bothered to keep in contact by anything other than Facebook.

      Yes nobody is technically forced to, but there is an ever increasing cost of opting out and I'm not sure how long I'm going to be able to afford to.

    2. Re:Memo: People hate paying bills. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Of course government spying is a whole different ball of wax, nobody signed up for that!

      The majority claim to want change, but the incumbent is re-elected the majority of the time. Either every election is massively fraudulent, which seems unlikely, or the majority is full of shit — and very much did sign up for government spying, bringing the rest of us with them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Memo: People hate paying bills. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Yes willingly, nobody has a fucking gun to your head to use this stuff, lack of willpower in a toy store is not "oppression".

      The parent said Facebook is becoming a condition for employment. Employment is not voluntary in this economic system. It's not "willpower" in a "toy store" that's the issue, it's being able to pay for food and rent.

      Bitching about the privacy costs of of a FB account is like bitching about the electricity bill while sitting in an air-conditioned room, it will always be modded up because people hate paying bills.

      No, it's like bitching about the electricity bill when you have no other way to cook food and the utility company is charging what it will from a captive audience.

      Of course government spying is a whole different ball of wax, nobody signed up for that!

      Voting for surveillance-happy politicians is voluntary. At least for now, it's not a condition for employment.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    4. Re:Memo: People hate paying bills. by BootNinja · · Score: 1

      Either every election is massively fraudulent, which seems unlikely, or the majority is full of shit — and very much did sign up for government spying, bringing the rest of us with

      Except for the elections where there are only two candidates and both are pro spying, so you're fucked no matter who you choose.

      You are setting up a false dichotomy here that implies that the majority could in fact vote for someone who would stop the spying. Alas, that just doesn't seem to be true these days.

      When both sides are invested in propping up the status quo, everybody loses.

    5. Re:Memo: People hate paying bills. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If it was just for convenience. But we're getting to the point where companies use FB in their hiring process. No FB account, no job. A more apt comparison of your claim people don't like paying bills is someone bitching about the rising gas prices while driving to and from work. He CANNOT do without the car. He has no alternative. He could move closer to his working place. Or he could find a job closer to home. But if that is your answer, I have an answer to end government spying on you effectively: Find a new country to live in. You ain't in North Korea, you can simply move away if you like to.

      But I guess that would be inconvenient, wouldn't it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Memo: People hate paying bills. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No, but it's trivial to give them something to think about when you show up everywhere and nowhere. Which reminds me, I should finally get that app finished that collects pages that have some kind of FB (or other tracker asshats' tools) built in, distributes it among the users of the app and has everyone randomly load the relevant FB tracking junk to poison their data...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re: Memo: People hate paying bills. by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

      What you call networking we call advertising.I'm betting business use FB because it allows them free advertising. We sure know they couldn't give a rats ass about my family reunion except to advertise a product i might be able to use at it. lol and no i am not a FB member.

      --
      Jack of all trades,master of none
  18. Two easy steps by jabberw0k · · Score: 1

    Step 1: Don't use a so-called "smart" so-called "phone." Step 2: There is no step 2.

    1. Re:Two easy steps by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Step 1: Don't use a so-called "smart" so-called "phone."

      How are you going to use any phone without involving a corporation, and inserting them into a position to capture both data and metadata and pass them along to law enforcement for misuse, or just abuse them on their own?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Two easy steps by jetkust · · Score: 1

      Step 2 is don't use a credit card or any payment system tied to your name. Because, if so, you are likely being tracked. This is already happening by the way. Research the company Acxiom. Step 3 is don't go out in public. Because the logical progression is adding facial recognition to all the millions of cameras already pointed everywhere and AI that logs everything you do throughout the day. The truth is you don't have to do anything. They will come to you.

  19. Acxiom is a bigger threat than FB or Google by jetkust · · Score: 2

    Why is Acxiom never mention in privacy? They collect data on people independent of social media and independent of any consent or even knowledge they are being tracked. They have information on you even if you've never joined any social media site. They track your credit card purchases, everything you buy, and who knows what else, and they are selling the data to who knows who. They sound way more dangerous than FB and google combined.

  20. Re:They aren't even trying by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    And also if computers were shoes, Apple would have invented velcro.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  21. Replace Corporations with Government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And the dynamic is the same. People have yielded control over their lives in exchange for perceived benefits, and now they've got buyers' remorse.

    1. Re:Replace Corporations with Government by nickweller · · Score: 1

      "And the dynamic is the same. People have yielded control over their lives in exchange for perceived benefits, and now they've got buyers' remorse."

      Not the same, we had the illusion we controlled over the Government.

  22. Re: Says the people that use their real name onlin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not everyone does that. I don't and im concerned. The problem is that it's not really an option as they are always inventing new ways of spying on people that are trying to opt out.

  23. Yep. I'd pay money. by archer,+the · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'd pay money for a Facebook or GMail that didn't sell/give my info to others. I can probably solve the second by running my own mail server, but I don't have the knowledge yet.

    But, of course, if someone were to try to make Cashbook, they'd end up having the community split between themselves and Facebook. And who knows, Facebook might sue over a patent.

    1. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      The problem with this idea is, they would take your money and and give you privacy...for a while. But eventually, the lure of big bucks would make them cave, and they would sell your data anyway. All this would be allowed by unannounced changes to the TOS document, which would be hidden away on the site somewhere.

    2. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by r0kk3rz · · Score: 1

      The main issue with a Cashbook type concept is how do you get people to pay for a social network with no users?

      Maybe a Whatsapp style "free for a year" to get people hooked, but even then Google Plus couldn't break Facebooks critical mass whilst also being free. Is the additional 'Privacy' enough of a carrot to get people to change?

    3. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Or, they would get a National Security Letter compelling them to turn over your keys and your data.

      See also Lavabit.

    4. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by iampiti · · Score: 1

      +1. I'd also pay money to Google to be able to use Android without any of their apps (i.e.:being able to uninstall those I don't use).
      I'd also pay money to Microsoft for a Windows 10 without any of their services (Bing, Onedrive, Store, Cortana)

    5. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by swillden · · Score: 1

      I'd pay money for a Facebook or GMail that didn't sell/give my info to others.

      Google (including GMail) doesn't sell or give your info to others. So if that's all you want, you don't even have to pay to get it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by swillden · · Score: 1

      FYI, you're conflating several things.

      NSLs cannot compel turning over keys, or even data. The law that authorizes NSLs limits them to metadata (granted that metadata is still important data).

      Lavabit was not compelled to turn over its keys by a NSL, but by a court order (not a secret one, either). Whether or not that order was justified is a subject of debate, but the FBI got the order by successfully convincing the judge that Lavabit was being deliberately obstructionist by failing to comply with previous, appropriately narrow orders. Lavabit did appear to act in bad faith with regard to previous orders.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    7. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      I didn't conflate anything. "See also Lavabit" does not imply that what I said previously applied. In this instance, the word "also" implies it as a separate subject not related to the first.

      Sorry if you didn't understand it the first time.

    8. Re:Yep. I'd pay money. by swillden · · Score: 1

      Okay, you mentioned two things, and both of them were wrong, separately.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  24. LOL by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Too late...you gave that up when you hooked into the internet, "friended" 3,495 people on facebook, twitter, instagram, said yes to every EULA, turned on tracking for your phone etc...you think government, corporations are just going to give that up?

  25. Utter Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is utter rubbish. If you don't give personal information, then they have none. I post this as (AC). I'm not on FB or Twit or Pin or any of the others. I don't own a cell phone. I have worked for a 3 letter government agency (so it stands to reason, I know better). I do own equipment to do signal acquisition and analysis. It might sound anti-social, but the corporations haven't started blackmailing people (yet). If anything bad happens to a social networking company with a lot of data, there are a lot of really bad actors that will offer a lot to bail them out (or supply cash demanded by shareholders or creditors). Companies are required (by law) to maximize profits. They could obey laws to protect privacy, or they could obey laws to maximize profit (or just pay off creditors). Companies have always screwed customers/users over creditors. This is how they operate. Its the way. Don't worry about Facebook or Google or Twitter or Pintrest, worry about the NYSE, Bankers, the Russian Mafia, the Italian Mafia, the PLA (China), and dozens of others who never ever worry about your personal privacy, non-disclosure agreements, or whether you are an 80 year old grannie living on a $600 monthly pension, they will try to bleed you dry either way. Companies aren't the government. You can pressure the government (this is what voting is for). Corporations know you by dollar bills, and your picture isn't on them. You worry about government security (again, people protest), but corporations will not pay the slightest attention to you. Decisions about your information will go on in a back room somewhere, and you have 0 say. If laws are broken the company can be dissolved before charges are laid, big players 'leave the company' before the deal goes, so they 'were not privy to the transaction', and since the company doesn't exist anymore, no one can be charged. The zeroed bank accounts are your problem.

  26. Re:The good news: by KGIII · · Score: 1

    I will just climb to the top of the mountain and yell out, at the top of my lungs, "Help me Anonymous Coward!"

    I do not think "hitting you up" is probable or, even, possible.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  27. GIGO by randalware · · Score: 1

    Keep feeding an ever changing pile of garbage into the databases.

    Never give any accurate data.

    And saying this, I know that the data breach in Washington DC the other day has info from up to 30 years ago.
    They had all my information and I am surprised it was in a system that had network access to the internet !

    I need a new tinfoil hat !

    --
    This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
  28. Quality by Livius · · Score: 1

    And after all the abuse of privacy, the outcomes aren't even that good.

    I searched for one item, went to a store and bought it the same day, and for months I'm being shown adverts for an item I am no longer searching for. It doesn't 'know' something about me, it's taking a guess and it's wrong.

  29. Also: NoScript by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    It is not primarily an ad blocker, but as most ads are served via JavaScript, not allowing domains like ad.doubleclick.something will greatly reduce the flood of unwanted ads and scripts.

    The RequestPolicy website also recommends NoScript as additional measure BTW.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
    1. Re:Also: NoScript by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      I'll double up the recommendation of NoScript. In addition to what it actually does, it gives you quite a bit of information that's really an eye opener. There's hardly a web site out there these days that doesn't run scripts from at least a half-dozen domains. Some of them are up to 20. It's almost never more than 1 or 2 of the domains which actually belong to the owners of the site, the rest are third parties. Your data is getting spread far and wide each pageload.

      Initially I thought it'd be too much of a hassle to use, but it really isn't. The majority of time I spend on the internet is visiting a dozen or so sites, I had all the necessary domains whitelisted for those on the first day. As for random sites, a lot of them don't need scripts to run for your average visit - most news sites, for example, will load the article text without any scripts running on the page. Occasionally they will have a "picture gallery"-type section that you'll want to look at where scripts are needed to scroll through the pictures, but it never takes more than a minute to determine which domain needs to be whitelisted for that. If you're feeling lazy you can "Temporarily allow all" scripts on the page which never fails. Sometimes I do that, remembering to clear the temporary permissions every couple days.

      Does anyone know if there is an equivalently functional NoScript plugin for Chrome? Emphasis on equivalent - I don't want it to be like Adblock where it's a lesser version of the FF plugin. There's been a few plugins that keep me on Firefox, and NoScript is one of the big ones, but I'm really getting tired of the memory leaks, among other things...

  30. Re:They aren't even trying by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

    I'm gonna summon APK, but blocking Facebook's tracking (and Google's, which is even more pervasive) is not difficult, at least for now. If hosts files and privacy-enhanced DNS servers are too much to ask, there are browser plugins

    You used all the summoning keywords, what have you done!? You've doomed us all!

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  31. Re:Why use just 1 source for hosts data? by mccrew · · Score: 2

    This post sounds plausible. However the combination of boldface, ALL CAPS, unnecessary exclamation points (!), and absolutisms ("...it's an undeniable fact") has my B.S. meter pegged.

    --
    Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
  32. This could be the most overblown "problem" ever by TonyXL · · Score: 1

    If you want to protect your data from corporations, don't type it in. This is like being afraid of green sweaters. Don't buy one!!!

  33. Re:They're right by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    It doesn't. It tells people bullshit. What the 12step junk keeps telling people has been pretty aptly lampooned by South Park.

    They are NOT powerless. They are NOT helpless. And most of all they don't need the "aid" of an imaginary friend. For fuck's sake, what people need is getting their act together. Find someone you trust, talk to him, realize that it's your life and that you HAVE the power, that you CAN overcome the crap and that YOUR LIFE IS YOURS. And YOURS alone.

    That also requires one huge step, and that's admitting that you have fucked up. We've been so brainwashed into thinking that you must never fuck up. Hell, you do. Constantly. Everyone does. But as long as you learn from it, it's ok. That's what mistakes are for, to learn from them.

    When these people start realizing that something's not running right, when they came to the realization that it's not going right, they ARE already learning. They ARE already digging themselves out. And that's what they have to do, because they, and only they themselves, are the ones that can save themselves. Not some imaginary buddy, not some psychiatrist, not some friends, however well they may mean it.

    If you want to overcome the crap you're hooked on, you can. What matters is your will to do it. Nothing else matters.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  34. Canadians have a Right to Privacy in US/EU by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Under data treaties that were signed, the basic Consitutional Right to Privacy is enforceable for all Canadian citizens, not just in Canada, but also in the US (US/Canada Data Treaty) and the EU (including the UK btw).

    Period.

    You can sue.

    I know it's unusual for Canadians to sue, but sometimes we have to do it to stop Evil.

    This is one of those times.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  35. Corporate tit by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

    As long as our politicians have to suck from the corporate tit to get campaign money, this will never ever change.

    --
    Jack of all trades,master of none
  36. Read the fine print by iq145 · · Score: 1

    Corporations are DIRTY and care for nothing but profit, so even reading the fine print doesn't always work (if they even offer it): http://www.newser.com/story/18... http://www.newser.com/story/19... http://www.newser.com/story/17...