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Apple De-Certifies Monster Cables After Lawsuit Against Beats

Posted by Soulskill on from the this-story-is-more-interesting-if-you-use-$140-cables-to-read-it dept.

An anonymous reader writes: Since 2005, Monster cables have been licensed under Apple's "Made For iDevice" program, which lets cable manufacturers put a logo on their product signifying they work with Apple products. Now, Apple has revoked that certification. In January of this year, Monster sued Beats, accusing its founders of fraud. Beats was acquired by Apple in 2014, and Monster is accusing Apple of bullying them by terminating the licensing deal. Monster's general counsel said the move would "significantly disrupt Monster's business and that the two companies had worked well for years, with Monster paying Apple more than $12 million in licensing fees since 2008."

67 of 288 comments (clear)

  1. This was always going to happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's inevitable and it's going to happen more. They are both from the dark side so who cares for any of these frauds. This type of thing will happen more often because of the IP Protection racket the government is running and also because these companies are going to increasingly run into each other due to this protection racket. The whole stack of cards is in it's last era.

    1. Re:This was always going to happen by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. He just has a realistic understanding of the Cult of Ayn Rand and what that means for corporate governance.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:This was always going to happen by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Funny

      realistic understanding of the Cult of Ayn Rand

      If there ever was an oxymoron....

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    3. Re: This was always going to happen by firewrought · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, Ayn Rand's own admirers were calling themselves "The Collective" in her own lifetime. It may have been intended as a tongue-in-cheek thing, but the cultivation of dogma and ideology was (and is still) very real. http://crooksandliars.com/john...

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    4. Re:This was always going to happen by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Typical Anti Ayn Rand rant.

      The problem isn't Ayn Rand's viewpoint, it is that reality is skewed by Corporations creating laws to benefit themselves. Thus proving that Government should not be involved in economics, since the moment it is, it is corrupted by its own involvement.

      In this case, government protection racket (dressed up as IP law) has created a case where nobody knows anything. I would suggest that Any Rand would say that the three (two now) companies should sue themselves into mutually assured destruction over IP rights that are tenuous at best, letting better, more agile companies to come in and save the customers.

      As far as I can see, Apple, Beats and Monster are three of a kind over priced status symbols. let them market themselves that way. And all the Sheeple will come and pay way too much for crappy products. The smart people will pay less for better products.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re: This was always going to happen by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 2

      Of course it was ironic. Objectivism is a celebration of the individual. Rand absolutely detested all forms of collectivism.

    6. Re:This was always going to happen by harrkev · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just a comment on the "status symbol" thing.

      How many times have you seen a iPhone enclosed in a big sturdy case designed to protect the thing from nuclear armageddon? And on these cases, how many times do they have a big cut-out for the Apple logo on it? Heaven forbid that the person standing next to you would fail to notice the Apple logo!

      No, how many times have you seen a similar thing on a case for any other phone?

      This just proves that some people don't just want an iPhone... they want everybody around them to know that they have an iPhone.

      I am still waiting for the Apple shoes and matching purse to show up.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
  2. This is going to be hilarious. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Flim-flam cable maker suing overpriced hipster baiting electronics firm over tacky rich kid headphones.

    Fetch me my popcorn

    1. Re:This is going to be hilarious. by techstar25 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You know what they say: All is fair in love and war and overpriced A/V accessories.

    2. Re:This is going to be hilarious. by zieroh · · Score: 2

      Both of these companies are committing fraud, somehow getting people to think that high price =quality product

      Please explain how you came to the conclusion that this constitutes fraud.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    3. Re:This is going to be hilarious. by Gingernads · · Score: 2

      Well, lets see. (Cr)apple makes insanely vastly overpriced, extremely low quality products, and is now being sued by a company that makes insanely vastly overpriced, extremely low quality cables and A/V accessories...if one of them loses and goes out of business, its a win for consumers. The only outcome better than that would be if BOTH could lose and go out of business!!! Both of these companies are committing fraud, somehow getting people to think that high price =quality product, and that owning (insert name of company that makes insanely vastly overpriced, extremely low quality products here) products makes them cool somehow.

      People that buy products from companies like this need to wise up and realize that buying products from companies like these only makesthem and idiot (or an IDiot) for paying insanely high prices for the crappiest low quality products available!

      Posted from my iPhone.

      --
      Your optimism strikes me like junkmail addressed to the dead.
  3. Bad guys... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple, Monster, Beats, an ex hedge fund manager turned headphone designer... This reads like a Marvel comic with only supervillains in it.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    1. Re:Bad guys... by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2

      This reads like a Marvel comic with only supervillains in it.

      My favorite kind!

      --
      Do you have ESP?
    2. Re:Bad guys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      One asks the another, where is your attorney? They answer: he was disbarred this morning.

  4. Monster Business School by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have always admired Monster's business model. Take something as dirt cheap as a cable, tack on a price at least 3000% above cost and not only make it a success but have customers who advocate the superiority of your product on faith alone. Because they spent so goddamn much.

    1. Re:Monster Business School by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Back in the day of analog cables, there was some margin of truth in Monster's claims of cable quality and gold plating. Now that everything is digital though? A rusty coat hanger can carry a digital signal as well as their best cable, so yeah fark 'em.

    2. Re: Monster Business School by rfengr · · Score: 4, Informative

      To extent; a rusty coat hanger can't carry a 10 GBPs serial link like a coaxial cable. It's digital, but signal integrity is still an issue.

    3. Re:Monster Business School by Phreakiture · · Score: 5, Funny

      customers who advocate the superiority of your product on faith alone. Because they spent so goddamn much.

      The guitarist in a band I've engineered for is stone deaf but thinks of himself as an audiophile. He can't hear the hum coming out of his guitar amp, but swears by these overpriced interconnect cables as well as the special acoustic pad that he puts said humming amp on. One night I pointed out one of the XLR cables to him and said, "You see that $10 cable there? Whatever you're listening to went through one of those." He didn't say another word to me all night.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    4. Re:Monster Business School by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      Even for analog cables, there were plenty far cheaper cable brands that offer the same or better measurable quality.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    5. Re:Monster Business School by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are still plenty of analog connections around. Headphone jacks, RCA outputs and so on. None of them sound any better through Monster cables than through cheap dollar store cables, and they never did.

      http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2...

      Note that by far the largest difference was stereo crosstalk, and that has a lot more to do with cable geometry than with price or "quality". You can make any cable measure exceedingly low crosstalk by physically separating the wires, but no one can head crosstalk at -84dB anyway, so it's pointless.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    6. Re: Monster Business School by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      What you get is packet loss, which either results in buffering or artifacts. An example is 'snow' on faulty HDMI cables. So there's still a case for a good quality cable that's not going to be dropping data because it's sitting on the edge of what quality is acceptable.

      Where some manufactures enter the realm of fantasy is when they start to say things like the colours will look better. They won't. If the all the data is getting through a $10 and $3000 cable will look alike.

    7. Re:Monster Business School by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Careful: if the connectors on your equipment aren't gold-plated, then it's those hard-to-replace connectors that will rust instead of the easily replaced cable.

      What you really want is a connector plated the same as the connector you're connecting it to. If it's tin-plated, use a tin-plated connector. If it's gold-plated, use gold. What I don't know of is any tin-plated cables which include a sacrificial zinc anode. In motoring (and presumably other places with metal bolted to metal) we use zinc anti-seize where dissimilar metals meet because it gets eaten up first, which is handy. I'm not sure if that applies to tin, though. Also in motoring, tin is what's used as an intermediate between steel or copper and aluminum.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Monster Business School by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And this is why radio hams, a self-selected group of the technically knowledgable that routinely deal with analog signals orders of magnitudes higher frequency than audio signals, are so fanatical about solid gold plated oxygen free copper directional cables. Not.

    9. Re:Monster Business School by kimvette · · Score: 2

      Aside from noise rejection and the lack of impedance matching coat hangers work perfectly well even for analog gear as input patch cables (but due to sensitivity to impedance differences you wouldn't want to use in place of phono patch cables). They work supremely well as speaker cables, providing the gauge is heavy enough for the current (so driving the speakers at a Pink Floyd gig may not work out too well but for the average bar, wedding, etc. they would be perfectly fine).

      Benefits of fine strand OFC cables:

        * they look nice
        * The interconnects are usually constructed better
        * They are more flexible than cheap cable, allowing for easier cable routing
        * They handle repeated stress better (so they're better for speakers mounted in doors)

      I use fine strand OFC cables for auto sound systems because they fit into tight spaces without worrying about hitting bend radius limits.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    10. Re:Monster Business School by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      I don't care how rich a company is, I cannot admire an organization built on screwing over people who are just naive.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    11. Re:Monster Business School by Carewolf · · Score: 2, Funny

      At that moment, you surely felt better than him, right?

      Really, I mean, what's wrong with leaving people to their own harmless opinions, no matter how wrong?

      It is not harmless. He is hurting his own economy for one thing. Secondly, if he is performing and is wasting money on useles crap instead of fixing the broken equipment that is causing bad audio, the audience suffers too.

    12. Re:Monster Business School by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's why I make sure to use dust-plated connectors.

    13. Re:Monster Business School by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah the big problem in bicycles is steel frames with aluminum seat posts or stems (where the handlebars attach to the frame). Those things are often assembled without any kind of anti seize or grease and are known to basically get "welded" together from corrosion. I've seen a few that were impossible to remove.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    14. Re:Monster Business School by Stuarticus · · Score: 3

      I tend to buy fairly expensive guitar cables, the Planet Waves ones. Rather than being an audio quality issue (though they do sound better than the cheapest cables which can hum a bit in a noisy environment, those gain pedals boost noise!) I buy them for durability, the cheaper ones can fail after a few months while I've only had one planet waves one die in nearly 10 years of use and they replaced it for free, with no hassles. Reliability is worth the money.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    15. Re:Monster Business School by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I've seen a few that were impossible to remove.

      I'd try lye, it'll eat the hell out of the Aluminum. Or if you're trying to get back the Aluminum, washing powder and a battery charger will run the rust reaction in reverse. I imagine it's horrible to do that with Cromoly though. If you do it with stainless the results are horrendously, illegally toxic.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Monster Business School by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm not a fan of MC, but I will say this: while the MC's are overpriced at least the shielding is reasonable. hum can be a problem with poor shielding and the MC's that I used to use, years ago (car audio ones with foil wrap) were quite good for keeping hum low. dollar store cables have the thinnest shielding and usually poor molding so they break easy.

      once you get to minimum quality standards, there's little diff other than being able to see numbers change in high priced test gear. but dollar store is really not what you want to compare anything to. even monster is better than that ;)

      their prices are outrageous but the quality is acceptable. not worth the money but that's not the same as saying that they are made like dollar store cables. they definitely are not.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    17. Re:Monster Business School by mlts · · Score: 3

      There is a point with audio that there is a split between "pro audio" (as in flat response monitor speakers), versus "audiophile audio" (speakers that have Bog knows what for response levels, but they look cool on their marble stands.)

      While some cable making companies tout things that can't be quantified, there are items that can be, such as a proper gauge of wire, well soldered fittings that are properly shrink wrapped to prevent oxidation, good insulation, and other basics.

    18. Re:Monster Business School by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      What's "too long"? Still working isn't too long.

      Since when is owning something for an extended period of time "too long"?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    19. Re:Monster Business School by lgw · · Score: 2

      You can definitely go cheap enough on cables that it's a real problem. My favorite is pulling out a coax cable and having the center pin break off and get stuck in the equipment. Paying $5 for an analog cable is wise, IMO. And if you want a 50 foot HDMI cable, the cheaper ones aren't to spec (you have to use a heavier gauge wire for long runs).

      Sure, there's no need to pay Monster's crazy inflated prices, but that doesn't mean there's no downside to the cheapest possible option.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re: Monster Business School by iluvcapra · · Score: 2

      I would also question wether or not a rusty coat hanger has the appropriate 110-ohm termination in the AES spec... (or 75 in the case of SPDIF).

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    21. Re:Monster Business School by Mal-2 · · Score: 2

      Nickel plating peels under mechanical stress. Gold and silver do not. They wear through because they are soft, but they don't flake or peel. Electrical contacts are spring-loaded to retain a good interface, and nickel is about the last thing you would want to use there.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    22. Re:Monster Business School by ihtoit · · Score: 2

      electroplating doesn't flake, it's electrically bonded and a few tens of atoms thick.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  5. does marketing hype matter? by nimbius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    does 'certified for iDevice' even matter anymore? I could see it being a concern for the average consumer about a decade ago but so many products, uncertified mind you, exist for the apple to channel audio from soundcard to headbone that the logo itself seems of little merit.

    Monster and Beats cultivated a brand all their own. Sure, Dr. Dre doesnt have his doctorate in accoustic waveform theory, but neither does Monster when it comes to a $600 pair of mission control headphones on the average teenager. Its all about the image, and in this case that image is perpetuated by pop culture and not dictated by apple.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:does marketing hype matter? by MatthewCCNA · · Score: 2

      does 'certified for iDevice' even matter anymore? I could see it being a concern for the average consumer about a decade ago but so many products, uncertified mind you, exist for the apple to channel audio from soundcard to headbone that the logo itself seems of little merit.

      I only really worry about not using knock off cables/adapters when it's connected to 110 volt power or higher, cheaply made cables that break easily are also easily replaced; cheaply made power adapters without proper insulation and air gaps can cause fires and electrocutions. That being said I use Apple EarPods because I find them comfortable.

      --
      "He is so stupid. And now back to the wall!" Moe Szyslak
    2. Re:does marketing hype matter? by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It matters, in some cases, such as their sync cables. Apple's walled garden is so high most people buy Apple's peripherals just to be sure they'll work.

      I'm still shocked, to be honest, that Apple uses standard headphone jacks though.

    3. Re:does marketing hype matter? by QuasiSteve · · Score: 5, Informative

      These programs tend to go well beyond just a sticker, though. If you're not part of this program, you just won't be listed in the store, or carried in Apple's physical stores. If you're not 'certified' for Apple devices, your product won't be in the "Apple Accessories" aisle at other retailers. And if you're not part of the MFi project, then at least in theory Apple could simply block your accessory from working at the lightning interface level.

    4. Re:does marketing hype matter? by houghi · · Score: 2

      Perhaps not for the end-consumer, but it might be worth something on where they are places in a brick store. Do they get the middle shelf, the top shelf or the bottom shelf?

      If they are licecenced, they could better negotiate to get the middle shelf or better placement in the store in any other way.

      Now they either need to pay extra or somebody else gets that place.

      Brands pay serious money to get visability. There is a reason Coca-Cola does their own stocking in many stores. Why are magazines places where they are?

      So yes, it does matter for them. Due to this 'pop culture' they made a lot. Now they will not and loose a lot.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:does marketing hype matter? by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      I only really worry about not using knock off cables/adapters when it's connected to 110 volt power or higher

      That's misguided AF. Back in the olden days when HDDs were stupid I had an RLL disk literally burn (with black smoke and scorches, and probably flames too) a trace off its PCB when the spindle stuck (SEIZEGATE FTW)

      Low voltages are perfectly capable of starting fires.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:does marketing hype matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      They aren't as standard as you think. The wiring for in-cord volume controls is reversed from normal, so there's a version for Apple products and a version for everyone else.

    7. Re:does marketing hype matter? by freeze128 · · Score: 2

      Before the iPhone, there really weren't any consumer devices that use the TRRS jack. Nowadays, almost every smartphone supports that. It's only *STANDARD* because Apple pretty much made the adoption of it standard.

  6. So, a good move then by AikonMGB · · Score: 4, Informative

    Monster's general counsel said the move would "significantly disrupt Monster's business and that the two companies had worked well for years, with Monster paying Apple more than $12 million in licensing fees since 2008."

    So, this is a philanthropic move from Apple, then. Monster are bottom-feeders that prey on the naive, and the world would be a better place without them.

    1. Re:So, a good move then by thaylin · · Score: 2, Informative

      But then again so is apple.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    2. Re:So, a good move then by Aqualung812 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Apple only charges around 2-3 times more for a cable than the competition.

      Monster's level of bullshit is another sport entirely.

      Buying genuine Apple stuff is like buying parts from the dealership for you car. More expensive, and may or may not be any better than what you can get elsewhere.

      Buying anything Monster is like buying a bottle of $100 window cleaner that has specially aligned atoms that will reduce wind resistance and increase speed on your car.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  7. Poor little monster by Rigel47 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Getting pushed around? Not used to having to deal with someone that can bite back? Keep in mind this is the company that has a track record of attacking any and all start-up cable and connector makers.

    This is a great read - a small-time cable maker basically telling monster suck it after they sent their default "infringement" claim. http://www.bluejeanscable.com/...

  8. The only area where it seems to matter by wiredog · · Score: 2

    Is power supplies, because of the fire hazard.

    --

    Best Slashdot Co
  9. Does Monster make overpriced watch bands? by tomhath · · Score: 4, Funny

    Seems like it would be a natural market for them.

    1. Re:Does Monster make overpriced watch bands? by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you don't use a Monster watch band, you won't get true time fidelity. Monster watch bands give you perfectly clear seconds, while all those cheap watch bands will only give you ugly, degraded seconds.

    2. Re:Does Monster make overpriced watch bands? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sloppy seconds, you mean.

  10. Re:E tu, Brute? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    Typical Apple, stabbing their partner companies in the back. Harkens back to the Motorolla days.

    Well, that's one way to interpret. But it's complete bullshit.

    The complaint, which was spotted by USA Today, alleges that Beats co-founders Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine concealed business dealings and slowly cut out Monster and its CEO Noel Lee's involvement on its way to selling to Apple in a $3 billion deal made last year.

    So, the founders of Beats squeezed out Monster on the way to selling themselves to Apple.

    But don't let that get in the way of your whining about Apple, or pointing out that Bill Gates eats babies, or any other crap you feel like throwing out which isn't actually based on facts.

    Nosiree. This is clearly the evil Apple at work. Except, of course, it was Beats before Apple bought them.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  11. they had circuit city or best buy compare them unf by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    they had circuit city or best buy compare them unfairly on tv with a monster cable running ESPN HD next to one with out a monster cable on ESPN SD.

  12. Monster accuses Beats of fraud? by mark_reh · · Score: 3, Funny

    The company whose entire business is based on selling overpriced cables to phools is accusing another company of fraud?

  13. Re:why want "made for iDevice?" by danbob999 · · Score: 2

    If they wanted standard cables and peripherals, they wouldn't be buying Apple stuff.

  14. Re:E tu, Brute? by BitZtream · · Score: 2

    ...

    Monster sued Apple (via Beats) first. Thats hardly Apple stabbing Monster in the back.

    This is pretty typical business, if you want to start a lawsuit against me, I promise you our business agreements and relationship is over. I don't think I've ever seen a contract that didn't explicitly state that even.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  15. $12 million... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    so that's like what? 6 cables?

  16. Monster Cables are Great by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    They look great, they feel great, they work great. They have a shitload of strain relief and the really fancy-pants ones have this great braid on them that makes them slide across one another easily, and protects the cable from abuse. And as soon as I see them in the bin at a discount shop because nobody wanted to pay full price for them, I snap them up for pennies on the dollar. I have a whole bunch of Monster cables now, they really are great... except that some of the really pretty ones have pretty lame thumb screws.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Monster Cables are Great by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      fancy-pants ones have this great braid on them that makes them slide across one another easily

      I was going to ask what exactly are you doing such that 'sliding across one another easily' is important but then I decided that was probably not a good idea.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  17. Trendy Crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It just amazes me that Brand names tied to artists still govern sales.
    Beats are crap, we all know it, and that same $300 could be better spent on a Pair of AKG's or Sony's etc....
    The Kids will buy what looks cool and trendy, and at least we can then tell who's got Bling and who's got IQ.

  18. 12 million? by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    12 million in licensing fees? so they only sold 12 cables in that time?

  19. Bring out the stickers and crying hipsters. by Pascoea · · Score: 3, Funny

    So now the good folks at Monster will have to go put black stickers over the "Made for iDevice" logos on their packages, and the millions of hipsters will cry out in horror as their overpriced headphones will no longer work with their iPhones.

  20. Re:Sometimes by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

    It's okay to hope neither side wins. May they spend many years in litigation...

    The lawyers always win.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  21. Re:E tu, Brute? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Monster sued beats before it was owned by apple

    You keep asserting things as facts which actually aren't:

    In January of this year, Monster sued Beats, accusing its founders of fraud. Beats was acquired by Apple in 2014

    So, if they filed suit in January, they sure as hell didn't sue Beats before it was owned by Apple.

    You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

    Basically you're full of shit, and keep claiming things as facts which are absolutely not.

    Do you work for Monster? Or are you just a moron on the internet who is too fucking lazy to read the damned articles?

  22. who are the quality PC makers? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just curious who the reasonably priced, quality PC makers are and how they compare to Apple? Also, consider after sales service.

    All those that come to mind are at the same price point and quality as Apple. Actually, I can only count one: Lenovo.

    I am not saying you are wrong (I am not saying you are right either), I am just saying I need something to put things into context.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.