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US Airlines Say Smaller Carry-Ons Are Not In the Cards
New submitter callgen writes: Airlines for America, a trade group for U.S. carriers, has rejected proposed international standards for carry-on bags. Last week, the International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced an initiative to "optimize" airlines' accommodation of carry-on bags by suggesting a new standard luggage size. It suggested a standard of 55cm x 35cm x 19cm, 58% of the size that Southwest allows. Most standard carry-ons are larger than IATA's recommendations, meaning travelers would have to purchase new luggage if the smaller size was adopted.
...in a weird twist that's like promoting the economy. Cause, ya know, you gotta buy new stuff. And stuff makes the world go 'round. Next to gravity.
If too much carry on luggage is a problem, then stop charging for checking a bag. When everyone got a checked back for free, there was plenty of overhead storage space, not to mention loading and unloading passengers was a lot faster because people weren't blocking the isles dealing with their carry ons. Now everyone tries to carry on as much as they can so they don't have to pay.
Smaller carry-ons would reduce their utility for many people, resulting in more mandatory checked back and more mandatory checked bag fees. The flight attendants would like it because there would be less boarding chaos with morons who fuck up the overhead bins. And the luggage industry would have a field day.
Really, if you stop and think about this it's a miracle they're not backing it, because if they did everybody but the consumer makes money off the deal.
Centimetres, a metric measure. The entire world (not just Europe) with the exception of Liberia, Myanmar and USA use it. I'm sure you must be proud to be part of the only 1st world nation still using the deprecated imperial measurements.
Just enforce the fucking current rules.
I've yet to see anyone - except on tiny turboprops - forced to tag and check their godforsaken, obviously bigger than the fucking demonstrative cubic area display, entire motherfucking overhead compartment consuming suitcase.
Tell these fuckers, "Yeah, no." And suddenly, there won't be a problem.
Profanity because fuck you, I'm not moving my backpack under my seat and having three inches of leg room for six hours.
Zero first-world nations still use imperial measurements.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
now they're shrinking carry-on luggage?
Fuck, there's only so much air you can pump out of a vacu-seal. I can only get two suits, four sets of undercrackers, a pair of sneakers and my laptop into carry-on as it is. BTW, here a carry-on follows Ryanair's example: 55x40x20cm, to fit in the overhead. Ryanair also allows a smaller piece of hand luggage as a second (since May last year as their passenger cabins only have rack space for 90 carry-ons, excess baggage goes into the hold), which in practical terms means you can carry three full changes of clothes in the cabin bag and a netbook in a neoprene sleeve.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
Is that metric or imperial zero?
Airline love to terrorize and torture their "beloved" customers.
Look for more Terrorism and Torture from the Majors.
Gate Clerk: Show me your penis.
Traveler: What The Fuck!
Gate Clerk: By International Law you must present your penis to verify that you are NOT Muslim.
Traveler: Are you a fuck'n Nazi!
Well that is our world after all today.
Call me about their use of metric when they are capable of manufacturing a Boeing 787. Until then, I think I will go with the high technology solution which actually produces working carbon fiber aircraft.
United carry on size now is 22cm x 35cm x 56cm, not too far off, really
I think you are confused.
You are mixing up centimeters and inches again; you meant to say "5.5 inches".
Also, you appear to be exaggerating.
When you go to the hardware store and ask for boards, what system to you use again?
Instead of charging extra per bag, ihey should charge on the total weight (of passenger, carry on and checked bags)
since its the wieght that is the main cost for the modern airliner.
I think we Americans enjoy the Imperial system so much because of how upset it makes NonAmericans that we use a completely fucking arbitrary set of measures instead of THEIR completely arbitrary set of measures, and we haven't been peer pressured into adopting the other arbitrary set of measures in 100+ years.
And as for that bullshit about logical units your science teacher told you, here is the historical definition of a metre before being redefines to be more precise but just as arbitrary in 1983:
"1 â„ 10,000,000 of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole measured on the circumference through Paris."
And the candela:
"The candlepower, which is based on the light emitted from a burning candle of standard properties."
And now the Imperial units are pegged to the redefined Metric ones anyways.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Even if they are not going to adopt this new oppressive (clearly a checked luggage cash-grab) standard.
They can still suck it for all of the other bullshit they put travellers through.
Like charging parents (i.e. for seat selection prior to the 24-hours-before-the-flight window when all of the seating is gone) to ensure that their kids sit with them and don't get stuck in a middle seat in between two paedophilic creeps.
Dear Asshole Airlines: get all of your fucking costs together and charge them all at once, up front, on the fucking ticket already. Stop this fucking hidden cost nickel-and-diming bullshit.
The IATA is asking for change. Can they make it happen?
They are, at first, a considerable global consortium of airlines, possibly in the realm of super-villians (given the global nature).
But, they only charge $15,000 USD per airline annually ($30,000 USD to join).
https://www.iata.org/about/mem...
Further, they have 256 member airlines from all around the globe (US based majors included).
So, they have a guaranteed annual revenue of $3.84M USD (excluding application and acceptance fees, non-recurring).
And that means they cannot be super-villians. It's a global organization, and they don't make enough money to buy a single US politician.
Per Open Secrets, US based airlines spent over $30M USD on lobbying and Federal election's in 2014.
http://www.opensecrets.org/ind...
I wish the IATA luck with the changes it wants.
But they are not super-villians.
BlameBillCosby.com
Oh, some country doesn't measure width of boards in metric but does so for most everything else, better not use metric at all in America then!
Sheesh.
Only after I posted that Slashdot got rid of comments in other forums did someone point out how to find the comments again. If Slashdot does get completely rid of comments, the site will no longer be useful to me, and I won't return, except to see if comments are there. I know I'm not alone in not liking the redesign since there's so few total comments. Other people can't find it either.
the common term is "US customary units". Also, many countries that use metric for many measurements also still use imperial or other units for some measurements. For example, Canada uses the imperial gallon in many situations, which is ~20% bigger than the US gallon.
Units are complicated and many people overstate the benefits of having uniform worldwide units. If I'm choosing a unit for how I sell my goods, what's more important, that the person down the street is familiar with the unit, or somebody from Ghana will be familiar if he travels to my store.
Besides, the insistence on worldwide conformity has hints of some sort of New World Order conspiracy.
While normally luggage is a bit larger than the dimensions above, the ones above are about the right size to fit on most aircraft. The length of about 21" isn't the problem usually -- it's the other two dimensions. A bag of size 21" x 13" x 7" will fit in the overhead of a Bombardier CRJ200/400/700/900 (fits the long way), which used to be the problem size for me. Gate agents will still insist you tag it for gate check, but the flight attendants usually recognize your bag will fit, if you have one of the models popular with airline crew. I've seen a few rare TravelPro or Tumi bags of small enough dimensions (sorry, don't know models), but the one used more often by pilots (or at least by Delta pilots) and flight attendants in CRJs is the LuggageWorks Stealth 22" 737 Pilot. The "737" in the model name is important to get the right dimensions. It's a little expensive and heavy, but if you travel every week you may also be willing to endure this for a bag that actually fits and doesn't fall apart on you after two or three years of heavy travel like the ones from Target.
Do you think removing the share button from slashdot could be in the cards?
Another in a long list of reasons I don't fly. TSA, invasion of privacy, strip searches, terrible service, loaded on like a heard of cattle, no leg room, charges for everything under the sun, delays...it's just easier to drive. I have no reason to travel overseas, would never leave America. If I want to see something overseas, I just look it up. I'd rather travel in the USA. Don't have to deal with the language problem, social problem, anti-American problem.
Some of us have jobs which requires us to travel. Anything to avoid wasting my time waiting for checked luggage to be unloaded is a win in my book. Can't go wrong with a weekender bag and a large briefcase. Most airlines doesn't count laptop bags as a carry-on which my briefcase stretch that loophole nicely. Just so you know my briefcase is almost the maximum size of this IATA proposal. Enough clothes for six days in both bags and a blazer I am wearing. Trick is to roll your clothes tightly so that most of the bag aren't taken up by wrinkled clothes that'll take up more space.
If you are an elite 100k flyer the airlines won't screw with you; as long as you aren't trying to drag a hugh bag on they will give you a pass because you are their best customers. The casual flyer will get screwed because the airlines can but they'll bend over backwards for the top tier flyers. Of course, beyond the few dicks most frequent flyers know the drill and just want get to their destination with their stuff with minimal hassle for all involved.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Unless agreeing upon a 25 page confusing EULA it's metric.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
I think the main argument is the benefits of a base-10 based system not that 'logical' lengths that were used. Its trivial to accurately convert between grams and kilograms, kilometres and centimetres, etc. Its a bit more difficult to convert between the US customary units (how many feet is 5 and a 1/2 inches)?
Today many companies pushes for using teleconferences instead.
Flying have progressively getting less and less comfortable since I started flying in the 80's.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Including the US.
Much of commerce and daily life in the US uses a customary system of measurements that traces its origins to England, before the revolution.
In 1859 the UK adopted a reformed and rationalized system of weights and measures that was binding on itself and its Imperial possessions, including about a quarter of the Earth's surface at that time.
The US did not adopt that system. Although in 1959, the US and the Imperial system countries adopted a common definition of the yard in SI units.
There are extensive differences between the US customary and Imperial systems, especially in units of volume and in larger units of weight.
All of this is explained by the National Institute of Standards and Technology [NIST, a division of the US Department of Commerce [nist.gov]] in Appendix B "Units and Systems of Measurement Their Origin, Development, and Present Status" to their publication Handbook 44 "Specifications, Tolerances, and Other Technical Requirements for Weighing and Measuring Devices" [PDF].
While we are correcting misconceptions, the SI system (often called metric) is lawful in the US, and has been so since 1866, and dominates several important activities, such as health care, and the military. What the US has not done, and probably will never do, is outlaw, the customary system.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
it's all the other idiots who bring carryon that is clearly too big, or waste space putting their fucking backpacks/purses/coats up there.
Butthurt over our unit of measure? Really? Tell me how it matters, realistically.
A little bit less then half a foot. If you need anything more accurate then that then you need a ruler anyways.
Units are complicated and many people overstate the benefits of having uniform worldwide units. If I'm choosing a unit for how I sell my goods, what's more important, that the person down the street is familiar with the unit, or somebody from Ghana will be familiar if he travels to my store.
In industry, whatever tool or system you're dealing with, you're going to either use something that is either imported or exported or has to be compatible with something that is imported or exported. Thus you are guaranteed that there will be SI units somewhere in your process and it is usually just easier to go with it for the whole process, as is done in the military, NASA, and most US engineering firms. In addition to being internationally compatible, it is also a damn lot easier to use. Sure, if you use no unit but feet, pounds and seconds in your calculation there is no unit conversion that needs to be done, but as soon as you go into the range where you might think in miles or ounces, it becomes fairly difficult to reconcile intuition with units unless you do some fiddly calculations. Whereas a native SI user knows intuitively how long a Km and mm is in the same way an American might recon a mile or an inch.
So you may say: "why don't I buy a 2 pounds of apples, then walk a mile to work where I use SI to design parts and trajectories and what not?" Problem is, if you're thinking in non SI, then non SI units tend to sneak into where they don't belong. The Mars Climate Orbiter for example fell out of the sky because Lockheed used pound-seconds instead of newton-seconds in a calculation.
Considering how much success other countries have had switching, I'm always surprised at America's feeble efforts to do so. I think it is just something to do with Americans natural paranoia about as you say a "New World Order" or whatever else that prevents it.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Thing is, while I do agree that a standard unit that allows for easy conversion has its advantages, the Metric System's units do not correlate well to real-world situations. 0 degrees Fahrenheit through 100 degrees Fahrenheit correspond well with the temperature range at which a human can work outdoors without resorting to special equipment. A foot, as it is similar to the anatomical part of the same name, is sized conveniently to work with in the physical world with things that the average person will interact with in arms-reach. A gallon of water is about at the limit of what most people can pour and handle in drinkable liquid.
I don't find the centimeter to be terribly useful, it's too big to replace the quarter-inch where high precision isn't important and the millimeter is too small in the same situations. There is no equivalent to the foot. Degrees Celsius are too far apart to make for gradation on weather maps; when all of the UK is at almost the same temperature on the scale it isn't doing a good job of differentiation. Likewise for tools; it's not common to find fractional units below 1/16 of an inch, but that is still larger than millimeters, so more wrenches and sockets are needed to cover a given size range than with SAE tools, and it's much easier to say above a certain size to stop using 1/16 inch divisions and use 1/8" or 1/4", but there is no clear case for when to start skipping whole-mm sizes.
I do agree that the Metric System works well for science. The relationship between joules, cubic centimeters, and degrees can really make science and engineering easy, and in those realms where the temperatures reach below the units-place digit and where the precision reaches down below tenths of millimeters it makes a lot of sense. It just seems...applied... to everything else whether it fits or not.
Admittedly I grew up in a Fractional world, but it still feels like SI isn't quite right even though it is internally consistent.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
A better solution would be to stop building planes that have a CYLINDRICAL fuselage when all our baggage is RECTANGULAR!
Those fucking "cm" things after the numbers? Midget inches?
Go fuck yourself Europe.
Also, frist post.
Get on with the times you fucking hillbilly.
You realize that your entire justification for using your existing units is because you are used to them right? Believe me when I tell you that metric units seem completely reasonable for the kinds of everyday things that people encounter when you are used to using them. We even have weather maps, beers, and shoes!
At least try to internalize the fact that you aren't being remotely objective.
An imperial gallon is simply 4 Liters, a metric measurement.
The US does use a lot of Metric and has been doing fine. What the US doesn't do is constantly convert back constantly.
I go to the store and buy a gallon of milk and a 2 Liter bottle of my favorite soda. I may pick up 750 mL of wine. I use Metric sockets on my car, but buy 14 inch tires. How many oz in my soda? how many mm in my tire? Who cares?
Use is slowly going metric. The biggest roadblock to conversion was in the early 1980's when they sold gas by the liter and it became obvious it was a ploy to sell very little gas for a lot of money. Having a choice between a dollar a gallon or 35 cents per Liter quickly showed the lower price on the sign meant rip-off.
Liters for high priced gas was a knife in the baby.
You fell in the troll trap. This article has nothing to do with nerd news. Dice threw it up because they knew it would touch off the masturbatory metric vs standard flamewar we sometimes have. The AC to whom you replied is probably samzenpus himself.
While we're at it, Dice, wtf is up with the missing "read the X comments" link after the summary?? In what world does it make sense to take make me look at a comment ballon with no relationship to the summary? In what world does it make sense to remove what is essentially the "read more" link from the summary? Did you totally misunderstand the beta revolt and decide to implement that shit piecemeal to shut us up?
It won't work. We'll still leave, just more slowly.
It's exactly 5.5/12 of a foot. What's the problem?
The problem is bags are too big, therefore anyone with a bag that is too big will need a new bag. *DUH*
Also, this is as much about reducing chaos and frustration with people trying to board with oversize/too much carry-on, not just about being able to fit everything in the overhead bins.
i disagree, especially about the temperature scale. 98% of the human experience falls between 0 F and 100 F. in metric, the range is -20 C to 40 C. You must agree that the F scale is much more intuitive.
Proponents of the metric system make two points:
1) the rest of the world does it so it must be good
2) it feels intuitively nice, orders of magnitude, etc.
the above point speaks to number two on this list.
Metric. Board sizes are expressed in either centimetres or millimetres.
could it also be you just gained in physical size since the 80's?
the common term is "US customary units". Also, many countries that use metric for many measurements also still use imperial or other units for some measurements. For example, Canada uses the imperial gallon in many situations, which is ~20% bigger than the US gallon.
Hmm... sounds like the good old times when every region used a different length cubit based on the length of the arm of their current king. Isn't that highly confusing when talking to someone from Canada?
Units are complicated and many people overstate the benefits of having uniform worldwide units. If I'm choosing a unit for how I sell my goods, what's more important, that the person down the street is familiar with the unit, or somebody from Ghana will be familiar if he travels to my store.
Now say... which units would make sense to be used in international air travel..... probably the ones that are understood in all countries including Ghana.
You may go back to your corner store, but this is not about your pint of beer or quart of milk.
bickerdyke
So what about the confusing (and stupid) "It's 5 degrees below outside!". Below what we ask? In metric it is obvious.
Thing is, while I do agree that a standard unit that allows for easy conversion has its advantages, the Metric System's units do not correlate well to real-world situations. 0 degrees Fahrenheit through 100 degrees Fahrenheit correspond well with the temperature range at which a human can work outdoors without resorting to special equipment. A foot, as it is similar to the anatomical part of the same name, is sized conveniently to work with in the physical world with things that the average person will interact with in arms-reach. A gallon of water is about at the limit of what most people can pour and handle in drinkable liquid.
As someone who grew up within the Metric system, I have the same issues with the imperial units. I find them completely unintuitive and out of my normal experience. What good is a foot as a unit? There is barely anything that is a foot long, except a foot. But the working space on my desk is 1 meter wide. The distance from my desk to the wall behind me has to be at least 1 meter to allow me to sit behind my desk. The length of my legs from the hips down is about 1 meter. What good is Fahrenheit either? When my thermometer shows 0 Celsius, I know I have to drive carefully, as the roads might be frozen. Much easier to remember than 32 F. 20 Celsius is a nice spring day, 25 Celsius means I don't need a jacket, and 30 Celsius means it's getting hot outside. Nice, round numbers. But 68 F, 77 F and 86 F? Horrible! 1 Liter of any drinkable liquid weighs 1 kilogram. That's easy. How much pounds is that? And why the difference between liquid ounces and weigh ounces? Catastrophic! 1 km is the distance I walk within 10 minutes. Easy. A mile? Something about 16 minutes. 100 km is the distance I drive within one hour on the Autobahn, even including heavy traffic. Easy. 100 miles? Yeah, one and a half hour, maybe a little more. How inconvient!
Metric works well with my experience. Metric works for me. Imperial units do not.
See how it boils down to whatever you grew up with? Imperial units are in no way more or less intuitive than metric ones. You just remember the real world examples that fit within the imperial units. I remember the real world examples that work well with metric units. None of them is more natural than the other one.
98% of the human experience falls between 0 F and 100 F.
Pardon my ignorance, but 0.98 human experience is how many libraries of Congress?
Centimetres, a metric measure. The entire world (not just Europe) with the exception of Liberia, Myanmar and USA use it. I'm sure you must be proud to be part of the only 1st world nation still using the deprecated imperial measurements.
This sir, is completely and utterly not true.
The US uses US Customary Units. The Imperial system was established in the English parliament as the Weights and Measures act of 1824, near to some 50 years after the US cut the apron strings. To say they are advanced as the Imperial system is a utter falsification.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Also, many countries that use metric for many measurements also still use imperial or other units for some measurements.
I suppose that you are using an imperial 'many' for that. Two is not enough to count as 'many' in metric.
It is blindly obvious you are paying for the travel from point A to point B without luggage. Carry on and free baggage are only a convenience. "The advertised ticket price is the *only* thing the airline should be allowed to charge you for your seat, baggage (checked or carry-on up to a regulated size and weight), and any additional services offered to you during booking, in the airport or on the plane." which would lead to airline making sure that it is blindly obvious that you are not paying " it is ALREADY blindly obvious. Which is why for all big carrier I know of for big alliance (one world, star alliance) you are not paying for luggage, you are paying for excess luggage. That may be different for discounter like Ryanair but it is not the case for standard carrier. Heck the things is called an EBT (as in "excess baggage") or used to before the advent of EMD (electronic miscellaneous document).
"It's also high time that overbooking or fuel surcharges were banned, as well. It's not like the airline refunds you a portion of your ticket prices when gas costs less than expected, or refunds you if you decide not to travel on a ticket you paid for, so what possible reason is there for them to be allowed to raise the contractually-agreed price after you've already paid it or to sell your seat to somebody else as well and hope one of you doesn't show up?"
Firstly you do not pay AFTERWARD a surcharge. You pay it at the moment you pay your ticket and it is included in the price. The things is often the reservation is separated in time to the payment. All fee, services and tax are calculated at the moment you PAY, not at the moment you reserve. And it is quite clearly indicated normally when you book, except a few airline which advertise they guarantee you a price at reservation. And the contract is not "signed" at reservation by the way it is "signed" at payment. Which is why for example you can do a res , and then simply say "screw it I am a noshow" and thus making sure the airline has to overbook or get screwed with a non saleable place and thus loss of money. And do not get me started with double booking by some people (cheapo tariff and normal eco tariff, if they get the place in the cheapo one they simply refund the normal tariff).
"or refunds you if you decide not to travel on a ticket you paid for"
You actually get a refund for tickets you do not travel. Depending on your tariff it may be partial, full, or minimal. That is why you can get a cheapo ticket : you forgoe the ability to get a refund or free rebooking. Want to be able to refund ? Then stop buying the cheapest tarif and get the normal undiscounted tariff.
"Sadly, there's zero chance any of this will ever happen" There is no chance that will happen because your post is based of a totally erroneous understanding on the reservation and ticket sale process. Why this was modded insightful is a wonder.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
Instead of charging extra per bag, ihey should charge on the total weight (of passenger, carry on and checked bags)
since its the wieght that is the main cost for the modern airliner.
You honestly think airlines haven't considered that. They figured out it costs more than it will save.
Besides that, do you think an airport rent-a-cop is going to tell Mr SteroidJunkie that he has to pay and Mr Tubby gets through for free he weighs more than the Chubster?
BTW, when you fly on light aircraft in commercial service like a Dash-8, you do get weighed because that plane has a very low MTOW. There's a reason they know it's unworkable.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
If it needs wheels, it is not a frgggin' carry-on!
Overhead bins do NOT mean that there is a compartment for each passenger! You're supposed to share that space! But no, everyone nowadays has to bring these cases that aren't much smaller than the suitcase I regularly use for checked baggage! carry on is your survival pack with stuff you need between checking and retrieving your regular baggage, plus a pair of clean underwear and a towel and what you might need if your regular baggage is late.
bickerdyke
In metric Europe we still use inches for pipes and some such. Life, it seems, is never easy.
In Europe, low cost airlines (wooden-bench airlines in local parlance) traditionally measured free cabin carry-on luggage as 1pcs of max. 55x40x20cm.
Then WizzAir, a shady swiss-financed newcomer rival to the Ryanair giant, reduced free baggage size to 1pcs of 42x32x25cm, so that it must fit under the seat in front of you. Simultaneously they introduced paid "large" carry-on luggage with standard IATA dimensions of max. 56x45x25cm and allowed cargo hold baggage to grow to max. 32 kilos per piece. The idea was to steer people from carrying overhead bin cabin luggage at all, because the A-320 / B-737 are designed to only have rack space for 90pcs of IATA standard size baggage, that is only ~half of the 180-188 person maximum capacity. This often caused caused tight 25-30 mins turn-around slots to be missed as pax and stewardesses argued over excess luggages that just wouldn't fit. Sometimes a toilet cubicle had to be stuffed full of Samsonites to be able to take off. (It takes huge time to transfer already cabined baggage to the cargo hold.) Now Wizz can easily meet the timetable and earn extra money, clever.
The big rival Ryanair responded by keeping their cabin bag size unchanged, but allowing one extra laptop bag or small 35x20x20cm handbag to be carried onboard for free as well. On the other hand, only the first 90 people in the security check queue can actually carry these in the cabin, the rest must submit them for transport in the plane's cargo hold, for free. (In contrast, Ryanair CEO's original goal was to eliminate cargo hold loaded lugagge at all and expect people to buy everything they need at the destination and throw them away at the end of holiday. This proved to be a daydream.)
Anyhow, since low-cost travelers are often on tight schedule, many dislike submitting baggege into the cargo hold, because onloading times are unpredictable. Furthermore, overland mobility is much easier with a backpack or a backpack-small trolley compared to the multiple Samsonite mini-18 wheelers, some people submit to the cargo hold.
'my pound is better than your pound (I can cheat better this way too)' being a main argument of not adopting common units till french revolution came and forced everybody to use common scientifically but still arbitrarily chosen units. It was the widely adopted because of benefits it offered, at least everywhere where French army went trough. Everybody else adopted it, I guess at the point where they standardized units to use on national level. I guess US was too big manufacturer of things to ever comply and UK did not like the French and continental things in general (thus forcing 'Made in Germany' to show where bad quality was). At the end you convert as much as we in Europe do. Sometimes we do not and expensive satellites fall from the skies. Some would fall anyway because somebody forgot to test things properly etc.
According to a story and trivia questions in Germany, Fahrenheit actually chose the lowest air temperature measured in his hometown Danzig in winter 1708/09 as 0 F, and only later had the need to be able to make this value reproducible using brine.
The third point, 96 degrees, was approximately the human body temperature, then called "blood-heat".
So Fahrenheit vs Celsius 0-100: coldest temp at Danzig, winter 1708/09 and a "blood-heat" vs freezing water and boiling water temperatures. Are you sure the first is more intuitive?
This article has nothing to do with different units systems but with the standard carry-on bag size. Besides that you are right - it is a mental masturbation most of the time to discuss different units. Sometimes you learn something. Sometimes you just enjoy the ride - why cannot you just enjoy the ride? It is Friday after all.
Yeah, the American Revolution was the NWO, meant to cast down the monarchies and oligharcies that were all the rage. Then of course the French had to go and fuck it all up by setting the prime example of what not to do that every manaical asshole flavor of totalitarian has been trying to top since.
Which is stupid anyway because apart from grade school math done on your fingers and toes base ten is flatly inferior to bases 12, 16, and 20 depending on the situation.
Not natural paranoia, it is more the government has less of a say over regulating life than other countries. The governments could mandate it over there while in the U.S., it just looks like yet another Washington experiment.
Also, the U.S. is an island nation, more or less. And large enough to have its own economy. Europe is composed of little toy countries that are much more interconnected. They need a system of easy conversion just to help erase the borders a bit. The U.S. economy has been big enough not to give a flying rat's ass. That's slowing changing now that everyone wants a net positive export/import balance of payments. The free trade deals the U.S. pushed through in last 30 years encourage that. And the push for metrics would have more behind it if it weren't for the Chinese. Americans see the free trade deals as the Chinese taking advantage rather than dealing fairly...a bit like how they are raping Africa.
So... during a switch specify $X/gallon and $Y/liter.. problem solved.... To start with have the signs stay on gallon but all receipts will specify both.. After a year switch the signs to specify in liters and keep the double-specification on the receipts.... after 2 years most people will have adjusted without any companies being able to sneak in a price-increase..
Every single flight there is always several scumbags trying to force an obviously too overstuffed or too big of a bag in the overhead. They just let them continue to smash other peoples stuff and force it in there instead of saying, Bag must be checked, $25.00 plus a $10 cheap jerk fee.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Not once have I seen an airline actually enforce carry-on size regulations, in 40 years of air travel.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The loading and unloading time of an aircraft is extended by 20 minutes or more just to accommodate those who want to carry on their luggage. I say make a checked bag free, but charge the $25 for anything other than a personal carry-on (purse, laptop). That will stop a lot of this delay and save money/schedule as well as ease security lines.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
How about this:
* everyone gets one free checked luggage
* your first carry-on items is $10
* your second and subsequent ones are $50
What they're trying to say is the following: thanks in part to airlines charging for luggage, passengers often encounter situations where the plane is full and some bags are gate-checked, at no additional cost to the passenger. On some of the smaller aircraft, many "perfectly legal"-sized bags are out of necessity gate-checked. The "Cabin OK" logo is IATA's way to signal that, barring exceptional circumstances, that bag need never be checked at the gate. The idea is that the gate agent need only grab the trolleys without the logo to ensure space on a full flight.
ok, so why does the whole world use such a fucked up time system? 60/60/24? 7 days? 28/29/30/31? The only natural measurement is the solar year, and that's a little iffy.
I don't get why your post was moderated "troll"...
Anyway, what's wrong with Celsius for temperature, please?
0 - is when water starts to freeze vs Farenheit's temperature when mixture of water and salt (and something else) starts to freeze.
100 - is boiling water (dayum hot). vs Farenheit's 97.88 "normal body temperature" (WTF?)
Farenheit is also finer than it needs to be (you don't really distinguish between 97 and 95, whereas 2-3 degrees Celsius is already noticeable)
So C correlates to real word situation much better than F.
A foot, is not just a foot, but a certain guy's foot. If I could measure things using mine, and that number would still work for others, it would make sense. But it's somebody else's foot (some English king?), how can I use it? There is no problem assessing what size things are in metric system either.
I can give you one counter example though, of imperial units still being used in Europe: hose diameter. It's still quite often measured in inches. 1", 5/4, 3/4, 1/2 inch is easier to remember, than millimeters.
It's good to hear your perspective and see that our perceptions about the intuitiveness of our measurement systems is relative. I've always thought that the larger scale of Fahrenheit was convenient because units of 10 distinguished temperatures well (70's are distinct from 80's), but it's clear that you use units of 5 in Celsius for the same purpose.
Of course I admit that my reluctance to change to metric has more to do with American nationalism than with any sure superiority of our units (although I despise using centimeters for small around-the-house measurements when inches and 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 inches feel better to me). But at the same time, I think that it is as necessary to have multiple measurement systems as it is to have multiple languages. In the 20th c. especially many people believed that the era of different tongues was coming to an end, but I think that despite the prevalence of English and Chinese around the world, there will always be multiple languages because culture can never be simplified into a single thing. Even in the USA it's possible to go to another region where they use some different words, different phrasings, different ways of thinking, and this is simply a natural occurrence akin to genetic diversity. The more distinct a culture, the more distinct its use of a language, so native English speakers in India do not speak exactly the same English as in the USA or UK. An absolute universal language can never be anything but an artificial construct disconnected from real culture, hence the problem with Esperanto. (And I do recognize that there are some native Esperanto speakers, but that does not remove its failure as a universal, a-cultural language.)
In the end, the U.S. uses the metric system when it's helpful (e.g. in science), and there is no pressing need to switch to it completely. Just because we use the US system doesn't mean that we don't understand the metric system and aren't taught it in schools.
Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
Could you, please, clarify how does following fit into imperial system?
One Joule is equal to the energy transferred (or work done) when applying a force of one newton through a distance of one meter.
One Volt is a potential difference between two parallel, infinite planes spaced 1 meter apart that create an electric field of 1 Newton per Coulomb.
One Ampere is constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed 1 metre apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2*10^-7 newton per metre of length.
One Tesla is equal to one Weber per square meter.
How does all that translate to imperial?
1 Liter of any drinkable liquid weighs 1 kilogram. That's easy. How much pounds is that? And why the difference between liquid ounces and weigh ounces? Catastrophic!
Catastrophic is a bit of an overstatement... It's easy, an ounce of any drinkable liquid weighs an ounce... (for the same variations as your silly 1 liter weighs 1 kilogram things...)
In Fahrenheit, it is obvious as well. 0 is the coldest you can get saturated salt water and 100 is human body temperature. Slight adjustments were made to the scale over time and measurements got more accurate which is why these aren't the exact values anymore. Still doesn't change the fact that the system is intuitive as 0 is cold and 100 is hot as perceived by humans. If water cared what the temperature was, Celsius might make sense for water to use.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Yes, 0 is cold, 100 is hot as perceived by humans... Water might care about when it freezes and boils, but outside of a laboratory, most people don't. They just want to know if they need to put on a coat or wear shorts.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
One ton of shit is equal to a ton of shit. A mile from your current location is a mile away from you.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Why do you want to sodomize someone with your mother's dildo?
Time to offend someone
For human experience, 0 should be very cold, and 100 should be very hot. That makes sense. In your system, 0 is moderately cold and 100 is dead. Also Fahrenheit's specific degrees were originally based on 64 integer gradations between fresh water freezing temp and human body temperature which could be done fractionally once you established the relatively constant endpoints.
I guess if you want accurate measurements you shouldn't use feet, but is great for estimating... You can visualize the length of a foot pretty easy and the length of an average adult male's pace is just about 2.5 feet which makes for a nice 10ft per 4 paces. There are advantages to every system, why do you think the one based on arbitrary science benchmarks and decimals is better than the one based on human experiences and fractions?
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
The Mars Climate Orbiter for example fell out of the sky because Lockheed used pound-seconds instead of newton-seconds in a calculation.
No, it didn't. The reason it failed is because Lockheed provided data with no units whatsoever, and NASA used that data without asking what the units were. Each side made an assumption about the units. This was a clear case of why units should always be stated.
There is barely anything that is a foot long
But how many centimeters long is a pornstar?
Just another day in Paradise
Roll your clothes? Isn't it more efficient to have them neatly folded flat?
You realize that your entire justification for using your existing units is because you are used to them right? Believe me when I tell you that metric units seem completely reasonable for the kinds of everyday things that people encounter when you are used to using them. We even have weather maps, beers, and shoes!
At least try to internalize the fact that you aren't being remotely objective.
Terrible examples. I have drank "pints" (not liters) of beers all over the world. That's how they were sold.
Shoe sizes have at least 6 different standards, not including the US or counting women's sizing standards.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
This is why we need a much better train system. Flying sucks, there's no doubt about it, but traveling by train is much more comfortable. The problem is that it's too slow and doesn't go enough places; it works pretty well along the northeast corridor but that's about it. If we had good high(er) speed rail in this country, regional travel by train could become much more popular. It wouldn't work so well for coast-to-coast travel, but if you're staying within one region or so (like DC to Chicago for instance), a 200mph train would be a great service.
An imperial gallon is simply 4 Liters, a metric measurement.
nopee. an imperial gallon is a little more than 4.5 liters.
you're thinking of the little-used unit "quadliter", which falls between a US gallon and an imperial gallon.
Are you sure the first is more intuitive?
after reading your post, with the words "danzig", "1708/09", "brine", and "blood-heat", the answer is obviously yes. none of those words are part of my human experience.
The airline I fly has no size limit for carryons (except the size of the passenger compartment of the plane) and no weight limit except for the gross weight of the plane. Plus, they go many more places than most of the "big" airlines... I'm very happy with them.
Cheers
Peacock
Considering how much success other countries have had switching, I'm always surprised at America's feeble efforts to do so. I think it is just something to do with Americans natural paranoia about as you say a "New World Order" or whatever else that prevents it.
Government organizations have for the most part already switched. However the government doesn't have the power to mandate that the private sector switch. And the private sector tends to stick to what its customers know.
Is that metric or imperial zero?
Metric. There are 100 centizeros in a zero and 10 millizeros in a centizero. If you need to measure larger zeros, there's the kilozero That's how you can tell. SO much easier than the imperial standard.
And a pint is a pound ... it's not that complicated and how often do you really care how much a liquid weighs in your personal life? If you do this professionally/scientifically then it's just working knowledge to know this stuff.
Don't get me wrong, the metric system definitely easier to use in a lot of cases...but not so much easier that it really matters for daily life.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
Everybody in the UK knows a pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter, easy peasy
I use metric regularly, and I'm a US citizen, living in the States.
We may not have passed a law mandating this, but it's a fact, the US is a both systems nation.
Now go back to your EU and pay attention to your own problems.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Why not 65, 75, 85 degrees in your example?
On the highway, if I'm driving 60 mph (~100kph), I know I'm going a mile a minute. So, see a sign for "rest stop, 40 miles", I know it'll take me about 40 minutes to get there. In metric, how long does it take you to drive 64 km at 100kph?
Examples can be pulled out of each. The metric system is not some system where all math problems are magically simplified for us.
I did grow up in the US, so I'm sure I'm influenced by what I'm used to, but...
I'm surprised that I hardly ever see anyone discuss cooking with imperial vs. metric units. Imperial weights and volumes are almost all related by powers of 2, which makes it simple to double or halve most recipes. That isn't to say that metric is that much more difficult, but I use metric quite frequently as an engineer, but I find it much easier to keep track of imperial units when cooking where I don't want to take the time to write things down.
Besides, shouldn't a computer-oriented site have more people who like things related by powers of 2 than powers of 10?
If Metric is so important to you, why don't you use Kelvin temperatures?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
One Volt is a potential difference between two parallel, infinite planes spaced 1 meter apart that create an electric field of 1 Newton per Coulomb.
One Ampere is constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed 1 metre apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2*10^-7 newton per metre of length.
How do you go about measuring those infinite things?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
well, I've got a foot long measuring device conveniently named a foot bolted to my body. If you can't figure out how long a foot is, well, then, uhh, I guess you need to stick to arbitrary units.
everyone is too dumb to store their garbage in them quickly
If water cared what the temperature was, Celsius might make sense for water to use.
Such as water freezes at 0C and boils at 100C?
that's because the UK's pints/gallons are bigger.
It's easier to divide things into 2 or 3 with crude or no tools than it is to do the same operation by 10. Given the timeframe when they were developed, it's easy to see why they are all based on being multiples of 2 and/or 3.
It's basically what you learned first. As an American, I think in US units, just like I think in English. I know Spanish, just like I know SI - I just have to think about it a little more before I can use it.
Btw, in US units, it's really easy to tell how long it'll take you to get somewhere. 60mph (100ish km/h) = 1 mi/min. 100mi = 100 mins
> It's easy, an ounce of any drinkable liquid weighs an ounce...
There is "normal" ounce and troy ounce, so that your silver coins has about 10% of weight conveniently stolen...
There is barely anything that is a foot long
But how many centimeters long is a pornstar?
And what does he order from Subway after a day pounding snatch?
Hiking, camping, moving, home construction, gardening. I've always used liters = kg in those to asses how much it will weight, how many trips I need to make, how many people and what types of vehicles or containers I need.
A foot-long hotdog is about a foot long. Upper and lower legs, upper and lower arms, are each about a cubit. If you need a 1:1 conversion, a hand is about a decimeter,
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Oh, please learn to spell "assess". I didn't come here to read anal pornography.
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1 troy ounce = 1.09714286 avoirdupois ounces. Apothecary ounce is same as troy ounce. A US pint of water weighs 1.04375 avoirdupois pounds. 0.04375 = 7/160.
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Historically, body temperature was estimated at 37C, and exactly converted to 98.6F. Alas, that's a failed attempt at accuracy, as the typical human body temperature is a tad below 37C. And tad is an English measure.
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To make things convenient for photographers, we should all use the photographic-metric unit for temperature, the dekamired.
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The insult here is that when I ask for a 2 x 4, I get a 1-1/2 x 3-1/2. Lumber dimensions are a nonlinear lie.
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This time, your spelling error still makes a proper sentence, but destroys the meaning of your post. Now consider the hilarity that ensues when "know" is understood in the Biblical sense.
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You grab a (metric!) measuring tape and off you go!
I was actually half-trolling (implying that the US is no longer a first-world country), but intentionally wrote it so that it could be interpreted either way.
Besides, the US does use the metric system for a lot of things, including most manufacturing and science. A lot of goods people buy are really created in metric sizes, which are then converted when they print the label.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
...shaped like a cube, 1 foot or 10 inches on each side and get a 1 gallon of volume.
Nor can you subdivide up and down between the sizes without hauling out some really unintuitive fractions - while various measures use various fractions.
Number of inches in a foot or a yard is NOT the number of ounces in a pint, quart or a gallon.
Nor do any of those match with ounces, pounds and stones.
And not only that, an ounce is not the same value OR fraction of a pint (1/20) and of a pound (1/16).
How many ounces in a glass of water? Well it depends...
Meanwhile...
1 meter = 10 x 1 decimeter = 100 x 1 centimeter = 1000 x 1 millimeter
1 liter = 10 x 1 deciliter = 100 x 1 centiliter = 1000 x 1 milliliter
1 kilogram = 10 x 1 hectogram = 100 x 1 decagram = 1000 x 1 gram = 1000000 x 1 milligram
1 liter of H2O = 1 kilogram of H2O = 1 cubic decimeter of H2O
0 degrees Celsius = freezing point of H2O while 100 degrees Celsius = boiling point of H2O
I.e. Points where it changes aggregate states from liquid to solid and from liquid to gas.
Points at which you are no longer measuring temperature of a liquid. Ends of the scale.
Fahrenheit?
0 is the point of change of aggregate state of 1:1:1 mixture of salt, water and ice - while 100 is a couple of degrees above "blood temperature".
Which is stupid in so many ways I don't even want to go into it.
And no... "100 degrees means it's hot outside" is not a good rule of thumb due to a simple fact that no two people are alike or have exactly the same preferences.
And that's without going into more technical measures like Watt, Volt, Ampere, Calories etc. which are all based and interact with other SI units.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Catastrophic is a bit of an overstatement... It's easy, an ounce of any drinkable liquid weighs an ounce... (for the same variations as your silly 1 liter weighs 1 kilogram things...)
holy shit you're right. I never realized that before. That makes it so easy! And, as the person says below, a pint of water weighs a pound.
oh gawd, we didn't even get to units for photographers. what the eff is an f-stop? I never understood it, other than to intuit that it is the inverse fraction of something that may otherwise make sense.
Units are complicated and many people overstate the benefits of having uniform worldwide units. If I'm choosing a unit for how I sell my goods, what's more important, that the person down the street is familiar with the unit, or somebody from Ghana will be familiar if he travels to my store.
In industry, whatever tool or system you're dealing with, you're going to either use something that is either imported or exported or has to be compatible with something that is imported or exported. Thus you are guaranteed that there will be SI units somewhere in your process and it is usually just easier to go with it for the whole process, as is done in the military, NASA, and most US engineering firms. In addition to being internationally compatible, it is also a damn lot easier to use. Sure, if you use no unit but feet, pounds and seconds in your calculation there is no unit conversion that needs to be done, but as soon as you go into the range where you might think in miles or ounces, it becomes fairly difficult to reconcile intuition with units unless you do some fiddly calculations. Whereas a native SI user knows intuitively how long a Km and mm is in the same way an American might recon a mile or an inch.
So you may say: "why don't I buy a 2 pounds of apples, then walk a mile to work where I use SI to design parts and trajectories and what not?" Problem is, if you're thinking in non SI, then non SI units tend to sneak into where they don't belong. The Mars Climate Orbiter for example fell out of the sky because Lockheed used pound-seconds instead of newton-seconds in a calculation.
Considering how much success other countries have had switching, I'm always surprised at America's feeble efforts to do so. I think it is just something to do with Americans natural paranoia about as you say a "New World Order" or whatever else that prevents it.
I think the legislators are all dumb, and think that the population is as dumb as they themselves are. Start with temperature. For 2 years mention both Celcius and Faharenheit, and after 2 years (or even 3) drop Faharenheit. Thats what Canada did. We transitioned to metric long ago, and thats helped Honda, Toyota and non-American car manufacturers to get a foothold in Canada and elsewhere. We have tools designed for metric measurements, not tools designed to American standards.
We do keep certain traditional sizes, such as a 4'x8' panels, and 2x4 inch lumber. But the houses are constructed with Metric measure. And new construction is done with prefabricated panels, measured and machined using metric measure, and with the panels fitting together precisely.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada