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Learn-to-Code Program For 10,000 Low-Income Girls

theodp writes: In a press release Tuesday, the National Center for Women & Information Technology (NCWIT) announced it was teaming with Lifetime Partner Apple and the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) on its Clinton Global Initiative (CGI) Commitment to engage 10,000 girls in learning computing concepts. "Currently, just 25 states and the District of Columbia allow computer science to count as a math or science graduation requirement," explained the press release. "Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color." HUD, the press release added, has joined the Commitment to Action to help extend the program's reach in partnership with public housing authorities nationwide and provide computing access to the 485,000 girls residing in public housing. "In this Information Age, opportunity is just a click on a keyboard away. HUD is proud to partner with NCWIT to provide talented girls with the skills and experiences they need to reach new heights and to achieve their dreams in the 21st century global economy," said HUD Secretary Julian Castro, who coincidentally is eyed as a potential running mate for Hillary Clinton, whose daughter Chelsea is the Clinton Foundation's point-person on computer science. Last year, Chelsea Clinton gave a keynote speech at the NCWIT Summit and appeared with now-U.S. CTO Megan Smith to help launch Google's $50 million girls-only Made With Code initiative.

473 comments

  1. What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

    1. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nope. You're a boy. You are born guilty AND you obviously have it easy in the patriarchy! Ignore all those homeless white men, they're just there by choice.

    2. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some are more equal than others.

    3. Re:What about low-income boys? by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You haven't figured it out yet, have you? This has nothing to do with equality, period.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off to the glue factory with you.

    5. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its okay, plenty of space in jail for them.

    6. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, pray tell, does it have to do with, question mark?

    7. Re:What about low-income boys? by NotDrWho · · Score: 0

      Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

      Nope. We're sick of all those dirt-poor little boys in Appalachia lording their white male privilege over down-trodden little rich girls living in Grosse Pointe!

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    8. Re:What about low-income boys? by DivineKnight · · Score: 2

      Every man, woman, and child for him / herself.

    9. Re:What about low-income boys? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Slashdot really needs a "Ironic" mod.

    10. Re:What about low-income boys? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 5, Funny

      Boys can't have periods, so of course they're not equal... wait, what?

    11. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Low-income boys go to jail so private prisons stay open. What else would they be good for?

    12. Re:What about low-income boys? by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slashdot really needs a "Ironic" mod.

      That would be a +1 or -1?

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    13. Re:What about low-income boys? by UncleGizmo · · Score: 1

      yes, especially, because, according to TFA,

      "Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color."

      --
      Who put this thing together? Me, that's who.
    14. Re:What about low-income boys? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

      Nope, low-income boys have to pin their hopes on basketball or football if they want a chance to escape poverty; unless they live in a rural area, in which case it's meth.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    15. Re:What about low-income boys? by Winckle · · Score: 0

      -1, but ironically.

    16. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably a +i.

    17. Re:What about low-income boys? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      A column in the New York Times today touched on this.

      Traditional concern with broad distributional justice has given way to narrow movements like feminism, gay rights, black power and disability rights.

      Collective action, where co-workers cooperated with each other as colleagues and allies, has given way to individualism and competition.

      The result is greater inequality and more poverty.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06...
      Why Don’t the Poor Rise Up?
      Thomas B. Edsall
      JUNE 24, 2015

    18. Re:What about low-income boys? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      in which case it's meth

      Don't knock it until you try it.

    19. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't knock it until you try it.

      I thought it was "I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS"

    20. Re:What about low-income boys? by gweihir · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indeed. This program is sexist as hell.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    21. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      army

    22. Re:What about low-income boys? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Equality for girls. That's how you fix these kinds of problems. It's nearly impossible to fix all inequality in some giant atomic update that gives everyone everywhere the same opportunities.

      Look, if I start a soup kitchen for the poor in some predominantly black community, it doesn't mean I'm a racist who hates white people. It just means I only have the resources for one soup kitchen and because I live there or have ties to that community I wanted to help those people with my limited time and money. I'm not going to protest if you open up a soup kitchen in some predominantly white area, in fact I'll be happy to help you and maybe we can pool our resources and share ideas.

      It's really coming to something when victim culture is so bad people get upset when helping other people makes them feel like it's some giant feminazi conspiracy to keep them poor and uneducated.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you've never had chipotle

    24. Re:What about low-income boys? by Totenglocke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      TIL expecting to not be discriminated against because of your gender is "insanity".

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    25. Re:What about low-income boys? by Totenglocke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, no. This would be akin to you going to a soup kitchen in a poor black community and saying that no men are allowed inside because only low income women deserve free food.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    26. Re:What about low-income boys? by Totenglocke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Informal opportunities" meaning "boys actually want to learn about computers and try new things". Don't punish boys for having interests that are different from girls.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    27. Re:What about low-income boys? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, more class-warfare "everyone (but the elite) should be equally poor" bullshit from the toilet paper called the New York Times. This is my surprised face.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    28. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of those homeless men are veterans, which aren't even the primary victims in war; Women are.
      https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

    29. Re:What about low-income boys? by kuzb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, the moment you say "it's for black people only", you've made it racist. If you feed anyone in the area that needs it, it becomes equal opportunity.

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    30. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please mod this up. +5 for a fucking fact.

    31. Re:What about low-income boys? by Bengie · · Score: 2

      What's your definition of "low income"? I lived in a household that made less than $25k/year because my dad was trying to go to school, but because he was going to school, our family was not eligible for welfare. My mom tells me of stories where she would purchase a watermelon because it was cheap at the time, and that one fruit had to last her for dinner for an entire week. As a child, we only went to the movie theatres twice, EVER. Jurassic Park was one, I forget the other.

      Now that you have an idea of how poor we were, my brothers are 4.0 students in college and I managed a lowly 3.6 in my major. Escaping poverty is simple in any decent society.

    32. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      if I start a soup kitchen for the poor in some predominantly black community, it doesn't mean I'm a racist who hates white people.

      Is it racist if you deny poor white people access to soup your kitchen? I don't think anyone is against engaging children in CS. The issue is actively denying interested parties by gender.

      Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color.

      So, because boys shown an interest in computers whether that is because of (FTFA) computer games or because of some other computer experience in high school; we should deny those kids access to education that could cultivate their interest because a kid with a different gender didn't have the same interest and we must have gender quotas??

      Or did I miss something?

    33. Re:What about low-income boys? by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

      Look, if I start a soup kitchen for the poor in some predominantly black community, it doesn't mean I'm a racist who hates white people. It just means I only have the resources for one soup kitchen and because I live there or have ties to that community I wanted to help those people with my limited time and money.

      The program under discussion isn't serving a predominately female community.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    34. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a. cause there's already too many boys in the tech field/coding.
      b. time is linear
      c. your logic suggests: why can't I be in a gold rush too... or an 1999 Internet boom too (sorry won't happen again)?

      Yes, thinking in black-n-white is a b*tch, boys.

    35. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

      it's a win-win:
      Clinton gets what she hopes will be talking points and sure votes.
      Apple gets what it hopes will be cheaper labor.

    36. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    37. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you started a soup kitchen that only fed homeless ppl if they happened to be (foo ethnic) then yes you would be racist.

      So if you start a school for poor ppl and then only let in certain ppl, based on an arbitrary ethnic / sex criteria , then yes you are a racist / sexist.

      So, it seems reasonable to complain of the unfairness of this otherwise charitable move

    38. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering only 2% of college athletes go on to play in the majors and less than half of those stay long enough for a career, that path out of poverty is unrealistic.

    39. Re:What about low-income boys? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      Perhaps a better example would be the boy's locker room. Is is sexist to deny girls entry to the boys' locker room? Or keep boys out of the girls' bathroom?

      In this case a specific need for segregation has been identified. It's an introductory course, and as soon as it ends girls return to a mixed environment to learn computer science. So is addressing a specific need (like having to be naked to change clothes) with segregation sexist, and if not the question becomes if helping girls spark an interest in programming with an introductory course is sufficient justification.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    40. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, if I start a soup kitchen for the poor in some predominantly black community, it doesn't mean I'm a racist who hates white people. It just means I only have the resources for one soup kitchen and because I live there or have ties to that community I wanted to help those people with my limited time and money. I'm not going to protest if you open up a soup kitchen in some predominantly white area, in fact I'll be happy to help you and maybe we can pool our resources and share ideas.

      Your argument has no bearing on the subject. If you refuse to serve anyone based on their race, regardless of your location, you are racist. When the government sets up programs that exclude boys because they're not girls, that's sexist. It's just that simple.

      One problem with so-called oppressed groups is that they're not necessarily interested in equality as much as payback. It takes a bigger human who has been oppressed to forgive the oppressor (or those who they perceive to be the oppressor) and live with equality.

      The point many make here is that it should be sufficient to provide equal access (equal opportunity). What people do with that opportunity is up to them.

    41. Re:What about low-income boys? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Tons of informal opportunities in HUD and low income communities.

    42. Re:What about low-income boys? by xdor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Okay, I'm like quad-triple posting this... but I really think I finally have this figured out:

      The network of male overlords want to eliminate all their male competition: (e.g. like schools of fish or one of the main points of Dr. Strangelove [imdb.com]). Since the technocracy is rising, they can soon rely on robots for all the heavy lifting -- their only problem remaining is the maintaince and programming of the robots and systems they don't want to be bothered with -- so they still need some annoying technical people around. At the moment they're mostly male. :( Not good if you're trying to be the last man on earth!

      Conclusion: if the goal is for the males that are now in power (or their great-grandsons who will be in power) to be the only males on the face of the planet: then for everything to keep going they must somehow inculcate females to code and eliminate the need for all (other) males entirely.

      Low-income girls would be a nice controllable group to start with.

    43. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is a horrible analogy. Locker rooms are segregated but both women and men have them. If I came out with a fund to help disadvantaged boys, you would call me sexist.

      That's what this is you, this is sexism. It is NOT fair. if you are going to help disadvantaged youth then you need to help both boys and girls.

      Although I don't know why I try. You are well known to twist everything to match your own views that men are evil and women need special treatment, but don't tell them its special cause then that is sexist.

      Grow up.

    44. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering your argument isn't about cats or dogs but gender, it's discrimination. Why don't you want boys to succeed?

    45. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...the fact that boys have more informal opportunities to become interested in CS. That's all it is doing - allowing girls to try it out and spark an interest. Education is still done at school in a mixed environment, so there is no denying boys access to education.

      informal opportunities? Could you list some examples of informal opportunities? Informal implies it is done on their own (or with help from parents). How is a boy (or his parents) cultivating interests now a data point for lack of opportunities to girls? Do girls not have access to the same internet as boys? Or games? Or technology to foster that informal experience? I like the idea of allowing children to spark their interest in CS, but limiting it to one gender to me seems wrong. Just like your soup kitchen example, it seems wrong to deny a poor white person to your soup kitchen.

      So, the kid that spent time learning a computer has more opportunities than someone that didn't... Shocking.

      You make an interesting argument though. If I give money to a charity for cats, am I discriminating against dogs? I only have a limited amount of cash. Should I divide my donation equally among all charities somehow?

      You are changing the criteria and moving the goal post. Cats and dogs are biologically different and require different food diets to be health. That is fundamentally different than a soup kitchen for poor humans. However, sticking to your original example, If you make a soup kitchen and deny a poor person because of their race, that's racist. You may have limited cash, but your soup will be helpful to any hungry human regardless of race. Just like this program would be helpful to any child looking to learn about CS, not just girls.

    46. Re:What about low-income boys? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      If you make a soup kitchen and deny a poor person because of their race, that's racist.

      A better example would be shower facilities. If you offered homeless people a shower, only had room for one communal facility so decided to limit it to just women, would that be sexist? There are good reasons for segregating communal showers.

      Don't take the analogy too far, obviously you could alternate days or something. The point is that there is a good reason for having a girl's only class here, merely providing extra help for girls is not detrimental to boys.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    47. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      A better example would be shower facilities. If you offered homeless people a shower, only had room for one communal facility so decided to limit it to just women, would that be sexist?

      So, the semantics of a unisex bathrooms are now the analogy? Hygiene for adults is fundamentally different than sparking an interest for an education/career for children.

      The point is that there is a good reason for having a girl's only class here, merely providing extra help for girls is not detrimental to boys.

      I do not see a good reason for having a girls only class. Any career or educational path a person chooses have to learn to work with people that are different from them. Teaching children how to handle diverse work fields and different educational environments is a good thing. That includes learning to work with members of the opposite sex. It may not be detrimental to boys (it could discourage them) but it certainly is unequal and unfair to a male kid that wants to learn about CS but does not have the same formal opportunities as girls because... bad analogies and equal outcomes (but he has more informal opportunities!!! whatever that is).

    48. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A better example would be shower facilities. If you offered homeless people a shower, only had room for one communal facility so decided to limit it to just women, would that be sexist?

      Very much so, as "only had room for one" is an excuse for you being lazy in your design/planning. This problem has long been solved.

      Refer to your own washroom/bathroom in your house. There's usually only room for one toilet/shower/bathtub in the room. You don't have to limit one them by gender. You let anybody use it. One at a time. Just lock the door behind you. Was that so hard?

    49. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boys can go fuck themselves because men are disposable.

    50. Re:What about low-income boys? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      A better example would be shower facilities. If you offered homeless people a shower, only had room for one communal facility so decided to limit it to just women, would that be sexist?

      Of course it would be sexist, why are you even asking? The solution is simple and obvious - put a lock on the inside of the facility like most normal bathrooms.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    51. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, ok. I don't exactly get the point of your post. Does being a veteran some how make up for being homeless?

    52. Re:What about low-income boys? by radarskiy · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, this would be akin to a community with many soup kitchens that tacitly serve men first and one comes along and says "Why don't we give some soup to women"?

    53. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your definition of "low income"? I lived in a household that made less than $25k/year because my dad was trying to go to school, but because he was going to school, our family was not eligible for welfare.

      You sink your own ship right here, dickhead. In impoverished communities I challenge you to show me a community member outside of a local teacher or *maybe* a cop with any more than a high school diploma. As such, we had no idea that 'college was for us'.. hell.. I ended up joining the military and figuring it out, then popped off a pair of undergrads thanks to the GI bill and a lot of hard work.

      Escaping poverty is simple in any decent society.

      Try working two full time jobs as a fucking janitor and get back to me, you entitled ignorant asshole.

    54. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boys are already succeeding. Why arent girls?

      This tries to address that. I'm sorry that your white penis will have slightly less of the highest paid tech jobs than they currently do.

    55. Re:What about low-income boys? by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Some girls are bigger than others, some others are bigger than other girl's mothers.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    56. Re:What about low-income boys? by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      stop calling me Mark. Now what was the question? Mark?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    57. Re:What about low-income boys? by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      hmm, you haven't met any low income girls, have you?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    58. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey buddy...what about the in-betweeners...?

    59. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      I do not see a good reason for having a girls only class.

      There it is. If you don't understand the issues involved, why do you hold such a strong opinion on the subject?

    60. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..and feminists think MRAs are the conspiracy theorists...

    61. Re:What about low-income boys? by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      You've related that you grew up poor and went on to get good grades. That doesn't entail that you are no longer poor. Good grades alone aren't enough to guarantee success. I'll bet there's a good chance that despite your good grades, your poor background has still kept you back from the success you might otherwise have achieved, if you'd had the resources to risk and the familial safety net to afford to take risks without losing absolutely everything should you fail.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    62. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, I don't understand at all. I eat Chipotle all the time and it never made me crap blood.
      -Stan Marsh

    63. Re:What about low-income boys? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      That would be sarcastically.

    64. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      No, but it is serving a community where girls interested in programming are disadvantaged compared to boys.

      This isn't complicated.

    65. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't say "I don't understand". They said "I don't see a good reason". You have failed to provide one.

    66. Re:What about low-income boys? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Hmm...access limited ONLY by basis of sex or color.

      Yep..sounds like discrimination to me!! I think I'd try to get a young white boy into the program, see if they reject him and say why...and then bring suit.

      Sounds reasonable, no? If not..why not? How is this different than any action you see today of people being discriminated against?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    67. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 0

      How does this program punish boys, exactly?

      From what I can tell, it just helps level the playing field. Why are you opposed to equal opportunity? Are you afraid that you can't compete?

    68. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the girls are interested then why are they not taking classes already? There are no classes? Well then there may be some boys that are also interested but are disadvantaged. Shouldn't they be given every opportunity to succeed just like the girls?

    69. Re:What about low-income boys? by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference is that both genders have locker rooms. What if there were only locker rooms for girls, and boys just had to change anywhere they could? That's what this is.

    70. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having a 4.0 doesn't guarantee escape from poverty anymore. That died with the 1990s.

    71. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever. Society shouldn't encourage this by picking winners and losers based on attributes that aren't supposed to matter. This learn-to-code program would not be tolerated if it was for poor boys only..

    72. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Need cheaper workers than H1-B

    73. Re:What about low-income boys? by Ferrofluid · · Score: 3

      Do existing computer science programs "tacitly serve men first"? In what way?

    74. Re:What about low-income boys? by BlackHawk-666 · · Score: 1

      I'm not very interested in politics and accounting...can someone please set up a fund to give me opportunities to find out just how un-interested in them both I am? Please be sure to prevent people who actually have an interest in these subjects from applying.

      --
      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
    75. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such bullshit. Anyone who can do the job will get informal opportunities... There's already a huge bias in a predominantly male field to hire women. At least in every IT job I ever had. We wanted more women in. This is fail, a waste of money, and stupid.

    76. Re: What about low-income boys? by kenh · · Score: 1

      Well then there may be some boys that are also interested but are disadvantaged.

      Well then there may be some boys that are also interested but are equallydisadvantaged but ignored because of their gender.

      FIFY

      --
      Ken
    77. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is right in the summary. Both girls and boys lack opportunities, boys try to make their own, therefore girls are being given opportunities that boys are not allowed to have.

    78. Re: What about low-income boys? by kenh · · Score: 1

      A better example would be shower facilities. If you offered homeless people a shower, only had room for one communal facility so decided to limit it to just women, would that be sexist? There are good reasons for segregating communal showers.

      Yes, it is sexist - can't you imagine a mechanism where by women and men take turns using the communal shower? You could alternate genders on the hour, for example...

      --
      Ken
    79. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't remember starving and those sorts of things were only stories that your mother told you, then you were not poor. If your parents were able to go to college you were not poor. If you went to college or any of your siblings went to college you were not poor. If you did not learn about poverty traps and glass ceilings in college you were not educated either.

    80. Re: What about low-income boys? by kenh · · Score: 1

      It's really coming to something when victim culture is so bad people get upset when helping other people makes them feel like it's some giant feminazi conspiracy to keep them poor and uneducated.

      Please point out the comparable computer education program that ONLY serves young boys that this program attempts to counter-balance...

      --
      Ken
    81. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a sign on the door that reads, "No Niggers".. Except in this case the boys are niggers.

      Pretty fucking clear, dipshit.

    82. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should work, won't work. Some classes are more protected than others, you see.

    83. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooo you're so much more poor than other poor people! It's really impressive.

    84. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm curious - how do boys have more informal opportunities? Presumably most of the ways to gain computing experience are online, so how are girls excluded there? I would agree that girls are more likely to be discouraged from pursuing those opportunities, but they still have the option, AFAIK.

    85. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      level the playing field... because a boy that cultivated their interest in computers is now a data point for the lack of opportunity for girls...

    86. Re:What about low-income boys? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I do not see a good reason for having a girls only class.

      There it is. If you don't understand the issues involved, why do you hold such a strong opinion on the subject?

      Holy Reading Comprehension Batman!

      (What makes you think he doesn't understand the issues involved?)

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    87. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it a government program or a private program? If it's a private program, they're allowed to discriminate.

    88. Re:What about low-income boys? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      I really wish you would do that. It's the only way you will learn I think.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    89. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      What makes you think he doesn't understand the issues involved?

      Because he doesn't "see a good reason for having a girls only class".

    90. Re: What about low-income boys? by cynicist · · Score: 1

      You mean, because he doesn't already agree with you?

    91. Re:What about low-income boys? by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Most communal showers I've seen don't even have doors (instead, the entrance winds around so you can't see inside without going in). This is at public pools and the like.

    92. Re: What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      Considering that there are many reasons, and he didn't address any of them, I can only assume it's simply because he's unaware of those reasons.

      Do you disagree with any of the reasons listed in the article? Why?

    93. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I suppose boys succeeding explains why fewer of them are graduating school.

    94. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can get pretty close by mandating boys to wear itchy undergarments for 1 week of each month and stabbing them in the groin at the end.

    95. Re:What about low-income boys? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      And you can't work out a solution to that?

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    96. Re:What about low-income boys? by kuzb · · Score: 1

      That's because there isn't a good reason for having a girls-only class. There are plenty of good reasons to keep classes co-ed though.

      The real issue is you think the solution to unequal opportunity is favouritism, which is so stupid it borders on mind-blowing.

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    97. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please show me the program that explicitly denies girls, and show me where they become disadvantaged.

      You people are stupid beyond fucking belief.

    98. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really don't get feminism do you. To quote Australia's first female prime minister (not by election) when she was an education union official - "I don't give a shit about boys education".

    99. Re:What about low-income boys? by ewibble · · Score: 2

      Well you could state the good reasons, could be stated, but all we get is its like having shared changing rooms which it clearly is not. There is quite a big social taboo about the opposite sex seeing each other naked.

      The other reason is poor girls somehow get less opportunity to learn programming than poor boys, where really they just show less interest, if you live in a free society then you should be free to choose what you want to do, not have it rammed down your throat.

      Boys show less interest in ballet, sorry, have inherently less opportunities in ballet, does it mean we should be providing free ballet lessons for them?

    100. Re:What about low-income boys? by youngone · · Score: 1

      Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

      Especially Chelsea Clinton, who apparently is the Clinton foundation's "point person" on Computer Science whatever that means, despite never studying CS. It looks like she's being set up as another generation of Clinton politicians.

    101. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prove it.

      There might be a point that there is a lack of females in leadership positions due to sexism. But every male in IT that I know prefer to have more female coworkers. Even the managers. Any surprise there? Just as my female friends in female dominated jobs prefer more male coworkers.

      Maybe we should just accept that males prefer certain type of jobs and females prefer certain type of jobs. A large percentage of the females i know who major in computing subjects does not even want to work in the IT fields.

    102. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will be racist if a white person come and you reject him.

    103. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      Did you read the article?

      Peer influence and negative stereotypes are mentioned specifically, and are significant obstacles with this age group. By providing positive female role-models and an environment where it's acceptable for them to indulge in those interests eliminates those barriers that boys don't have to face. This wouldn't be the case in a co-ed classroom.

      Though it's not exactly difficult to think of issues that would keep otherwise interested women out of technology -- or which drive women out of technology -- that their male counterparts simply do not face. Just facing a male-dominated classroom, where they're very likely to be subjected to unwanted comments and advances, can be intimidating. It's certainly not conducive to learning.

      That you can't find a single legitimate reason for 'girls only' programs tells me that you don't understand the issues at all. Really, it's quite simple: women and girls face significant obstacles that men and boys don't. If that's not inequality, I don't know what is! By reducing those barriers, we help to give them equal opportunity.

      Perhaps, someday, if we can eliminate the sigma, stereotypes, and outright hostility toward women interested in technology, these kinds of programs won't be necessary. Until that time, however, they're essential.

    104. Re:What about low-income boys? by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      I'm just wondering if "Gender Reassignment" would count for the access to programming?

      I can understand "Ladies Night" at a bar, because men will spend to get access to the ladies.

      But what happens when people get gender reassignment for "the opportunities"? It might also be convenient for ladies night. Don't be judging.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    105. Re:What about low-income boys? by bjwest · · Score: 1

      This is what texting on meth looks like.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    106. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Did you just make that shit up, or is there a lunatic conspiracy theory website you copied it from?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    107. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You haven't figured it out yet, have you? This has nothing to do with equality, period.

      No, it's just a part of the feminazi conspiracy to work alongside our lizard overlords in eliminating gree market loving men entirely from the world and creating a reptilian-matriarchal-communist new World Order where guns are banned and only lesbians are allowed mustaches.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    108. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no. This would be akin to you going to a soup kitchen in a poor black community and saying that no men are allowed inside because only low income women deserve free food.

      Yeah, no. This would in fact be more akin to you going to a soup kitchen in a poor black community and saying that no men are allowed inside because there are already plenty of other soup kitchens supplying men and they don't let many women use them.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    109. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I do not see a good reason for having a girls only class.

      There it is. If you don't understand the issues involved, why do you hold such a strong opinion on the subject?

      Holy Reading Comprehension Batman!

      (What makes you think he doesn't understand the issues involved?)

      Because if he did understand the issues involved, he would have to acknowledge that there are many good reasons for having a girls only class. He might not agree with them, but his original comment appeared to dismiss their very existence.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    110. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Boys show less interest in ballet, sorry, have inherently less opportunities in ballet, does it mean we should be providing free ballet lessons for them?

      Ballet is a relatively niche subject. The argument is that Computer Science/coding is now as core as basic numeracy and literacy, and there would be something wrong if only a minority of girls could read and write.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    111. Re:What about low-income boys? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I do not see a good reason for having a girls only class.

      There it is. If you don't understand the issues involved, why do you hold such a strong opinion on the subject?

      Holy Reading Comprehension Batman!

      (What makes you think he doesn't understand the issues involved?)

      Because if he did understand the issues involved, he would have to acknowledge that there are many good reasons for having a girls only class. He might not agree with them, but his original comment appeared to dismiss their very existence.

      He said "I see no good reasons for $FOO". Almost by definition, it means that the ones you feel satisfy your minimum level for being "good" do not satisfy his. You're basically saying that if someone disagrees with your opinion of "good", then they haven't understood the issue.

      By the same logic, if you disagree with someone else's opinion of "good", then does it mean that you don't understand the issue?

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    112. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      That's because there isn't a good reason for having a girls-only class.

      No, what you mean is that there isn't a reason that you agree with.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    113. Re: What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's really coming to something when victim culture is so bad people get upset when helping other people makes them feel like it's some giant feminazi conspiracy to keep them poor and uneducated.

      Please point out the comparable computer education program that ONLY serves young boys that this program attempts to counter-balance...

      I suppose you also think that in the absence of actual apartheid laws, there is no racism in the US?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    114. Re:What about low-income boys? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

      Nope. We're sick of all those dirt-poor little boys in Appalachia lording their white male privilege over down-trodden little rich girls living in Grosse Pointe!

      I'd still rather be a dirt-poor little boy in Appalachia than a dirt-poor little girl in Appalachia.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    115. Re:What about low-income boys? by xdor · · Score: 2

      Dependent is probably more the word I was looking for.

    116. Re: What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless wedding cakes are involved

    117. Re:What about low-income boys? by xdor · · Score: 1

      I believe this was the gist of a conversation overheard between Charlie Sheen and your mom.

    118. Re:What about low-income boys? by onthemightofprinces · · Score: 0

      You should try joining the girl guides as well! Maybe the Paralympics and the South African women's football team too...

    119. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TIL that Men's Rights Advocates are whinging cunts who are afraid that their dominance may be threatened.

      What you are whining about is "no longer being entitled and privileged because of your gender."

      1.4 million tech jobs in the US. 25% of them are women. That means 350,000 women. But yeah, tell us about how putting together a program for 10,000 girls will somehow mean that no boys can get a job in the tech industry. 10k barely moves the needle, clown. You'll still be the dominant, privileged gender for the foreseeable future. Perhaps you could complain about how being white is such a chore, next, what with all the need for sunblock?

    120. Re:What about low-income boys? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Existing computer science programs in the US are heavily male, more so than they used to be and more so than in some other cultures (IIRC). This pretty much rules out biological differences as the reason for all of the current disparity.

      Some people have looked at informal support structures and have observed that they're very heavily for boys (whether intentional or not). Given that, they have decided that they're willing to spend their own money on support for girls. I don't see the problem here. Maybe we'll get more competent people into the field. Maybe we'll learn something about the sex bias.

      However, slashdot groupthink seems to think that equality of opportunity should be measured by objective measures only, with any subjective reports or observations left out completely. Sometimes it's more complicated than that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    121. Re: What about low-income boys? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Yes, and that sucks. However, in practice that doesn't appear to be as much of a problem. It's not possible to fix everything with just one program.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    122. Re:What about low-income boys? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It also can mean that boys feel welcome at good places to learn about computers, and girls don't.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    123. Re:What about low-income boys? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Another way to look at this is that we've made progress, and it's time to identify and concentrate on more specific disadvantaged groups. Alternately, that traditional perceptions of broad distributional justice had blind spots. Or that the broad issues that most people were interested in left some people out. Or that it was always a matter of potentially competing narrow movements, but that the Times overlooked that.

      I've read that the only reason the 1964 Civil Rights Act included women was that a Senator stuck that in there to try to stop the bill. It didn't address sexual orientation or people with disabilities at all.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    124. Re:What about low-income boys? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      How is that different? Both boys and girls now have more or less equal opportunities to study CS. So by your own admission, it's fine.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    125. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      Peer influence and negative stereotypes

      Yes, children/young adults have to get over peer pressure and negative stereotypes. This is not a gender specific problem. The nerd/geek stereotype is not a positive one, yet men and women overcome this "problem" all the time and pursue their interests. Segregation would solve this, how?

      positive female role models

      You can do this in a co-ed classroom.

      an environment where it's acceptable for them to indulge in those interests

      Girls can't learn in the same classroom as boys, is what you imply. Why stop at CS then? Why not gender segregated schools? Segregated workplaces? If girls can't learn with boys can they work with them? Segregation worked so well for race it should work for gender too.

      This woudn't be the case in a co-ed classroom

      I disagree. You can speculate all you want about gender segregation but in the real world men and women have to work with each other.

      Just facing a male-dominated classroom, where they're very likely to be subjected to unwanted comments and advances, can be intimidating. It's certainly not conducive to learning.

      If it is behavior that is disruptive to learning, the teacher is the arbitrator and can adjust the offenders behavior by kicking them out (for example). Unwanted comments and advances??? We are talking about K-12 right? I didn't realize kids so young were so forward... high school maybe but then, do you get that in English class? How do we stop it there? Why is CS so different?

      That you can't find a single legitimate reason for 'girls only' programs tells me that you don't understand the issues at all.

      To use your logic: Because you can't find a single legitimate reason for co-ed tells me that you don't understand the issues at all. You didn't address my reason for against segregation therefore you don't understand. Brilliant...

      Really, it's quite simple: women and girls face significant obstacles that men and boys don't. If that's not inequality, I don't know what is! By reducing those barriers, we help to give them equal opportunity.

      If it was simple, it wouldn't be an issue. yes, men and women face obstacles. Life is full of them. An ability to overcome those obstacles is a good thing, IMHO.

      What you want is equal outcomes, not opportunities. Boys that have "informal opportunities", spend their own time to cultivate an interest. Yet, Girls are not. because they have different interests. FTFA, they are not as interested in working with computers, computer animation, computer programming and computer games . They prefercommunal careers.

      And have chosennot to work with computers in high school.

      Again, i think that growing children's interest in CS is a good thing... But I don't like it when a boy now has less formal choices because of some informal advantage that girls could have if they spent their time with it.... That is not equality. You make women sound weak.

    126. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      Because if he did understand the issues involved, he would have to acknowledge that there are many good reasons for having a girls only class. He might not agree with them, but his original comment appeared to dismiss their very existence.

      In the real world, men and women have work together. That is a very compelling reason against segregation. The good reasons for having segregation are not strong enough for that, imo.

      I have not seen an acknowledgement for reasons against segregation. You appear to dismiss their very existence. Therefore, you do not understand the issues because if you did you would have acknowledged them.

    127. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      The argument is that Computer Science/coding is now as core as basic numeracy and literacy,

      i can agree with that. But that doesn't justify segregation. if it did, why don't we segregate all classes ( English, math, drama, science, etc ad infinitum)? Entire schools? Even the Workplace?

    128. Re:What about low-income boys? by phrackthat · · Score: 1

      Yep, we have to learn to "check our privilege."

    129. Re:What about low-income boys? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      For me, graduating with a 3.6 in a programming that my Uni has a multi-decade 100% job placement with an average fresh out of colleges starting wage of $60k-$80k. In mind to late 2008(recession), I was inundated with job offers after graduation that would have placed me above the median household incoming for any of the cities where the jobs were located.

      So yes, getting a 4.0 means you're out of poverty and above the median household income for your personal income.

    130. Re:What about low-income boys? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      We didn't own a TV until the mid 90s when I was almost 10. Couldn't afford one. Didn't get cable until I was in high school, couldn't afford it. We had one car, it was about 8 years old when purchased, and made it last another 8 years before it died.

      We didn't live in the streets, but we were not well off.

    131. Re:What about low-income boys? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention, I had to put myself through college, which involved skipping meals, eating cheap ramen, and making a 5Lb bag of unshelled peanuts last until next paycheck as my lunch and sometimes dinner. My co-workers regularly offered me their left overs. I lived in an apartment with black mold issues, but I didn't complain because the rent was cheap, even that I could barely afford.

      Yes, what a lavish lifestyle.

    132. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      If you deny any of these real problems exist, I can't help you.

      You deny that the social consequences that specifically affect girls interested in technology are far more serious that those that affect boys.

      The social consequences for boys, obviously, are minimal to non-existent! Let's try a related example: A teenage boy can like playing video games. That is considered normal. It is not considered normal for a girl, on the other hand, even though more women than men play video games. To admit to liking video games, the girl is subject to all sorts of criticism from her peers. (Think: "she's only looking for male attention" and other ridiculous nonsense.)

      When subjects like technology are generally understood as being "for boys", it directly harms interested girls. They're not as free, socially, as boys to pursue those interests.

      You deny that those social factors which inhibit young adult and adult women from perusing careers in technology matter because "they'll have to face them eventually". Well, guess what? Those factors STILL negatively affect women interested in technology!

      If we, as a society, change our attitudes and prejudices and eliminate those absurd gender stereotypes women won't have to face those problems ever. They won't have to worry about sitting in a male dominated classroom or workplace. They won't have to deal with ridiculous attitudes about their competence or ability simply because they're women.

      If it was simple, it wouldn't be an issue. yes, men and women face obstacles. Life is full of them. An ability to overcome those obstacles is a good thing, IMHO.

      I'm repeating myself here. When it comes to cultivating an interest in technology, women and girls face significantly more obstacles than boys.

      Imagine two Olympic sprinters in a race. The first runner is wearing running shoes and a track-suit. The second is carrying a 30-pound pack and wearing heavy boots and ankle weights. Are you seriously saying that the second runner is at no disadvantage and should be grateful for this additional burden?

      What you want is equal outcomes, not opportunities.

      No. I want equal opportunity. Everything I've said here indicates that. You simply don't want to believe it.

      But I don't like it when a boy now has less formal choices

      \
      What? How does offering a girls-only class deprive boys of formal opportunities? That doesn't make any sense. Did they take something away from the boys? Nope. We've just make things a bit easier for the disadvantaged group.

      Back to our runners, if we allow the second runner to remove the heavy pack before the race, did we disadvantage the first runner? Of course not! We've simply taken a step toward equality.

      If the first runner were posting here, I suspect we'd see complaints about how the first runner now has less of a chance of victory, and so we should feel sympathetic. "The first runner is the true victim!", I'd hear the masses cry. Even though it's clear that the second runner is still at a significant disadvantage!

    133. Re:What about low-income boys? by russotto · · Score: 1

      You deny that the social consequences that specifically affect girls interested in technology are far more serious that those that affect boys.

      That's correct.

      The social consequences for boys, obviously, are minimal to non-existent!

      See, this is where you lose your audience. Slashdot has a whole lot of men on it who know through personal experience that this is absolute bullshit.

    134. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      Slashdot has a whole lot of men on it who know through personal experience that this is absolute bullshit.

      Ah, those guys. It's not their interest in technology that's caused their social problems.

      I know through personal experience.

    135. Re:What about low-income boys? by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      I am not denying the problems women face. We are a free society and they are free to choose their career based on what interests them. The information provided FTFA that I previously linked showed a disparity in interest. If the one of the biggest problem women have is that their friends will make fun of them? Yes, i don't have much sympathy for that. Thick skin, grow some. Society does not owe you any favors to end peer pressure or negative stereo types. Because the way to end stereo types is to not care and ignore them and change them yourself. Have some personal accountability. All of the women that are in STEM didn't let anyone bring them down or talk them out of it. That tells me there is equal opportunity. Just because it is not 50/50 does not mean it is inherently sexist.

      They're not as free, socially, as boys to pursue those interests.

      Are there any legal barriers stopping those interests? No? Then they are just as free. What obstacles stop a girl watching a youtube video that teaches how to code? What societal pressure will stop you from reading a technical manual? There are more opportunities now to cultivate any interest you have these days, if subtle intimidation or mean comments stop you from perusing your interests, clearly it wasn't that interesting to you. If necessary there are legal courses of action a woman can take to end that type of behavior in school or on the job.

      If we, as a society, change our attitudes and prejudices and eliminate those absurd gender stereotypes women won't have to face those problems ever. They won't have to worry about sitting in a male dominated classroom or workplace. They won't have to deal with ridiculous attitudes about their competence or ability simply because they're women.

      Bullshit. Ever worked in a restaurant? It makes STEM look like the Oprah Winfrey show. Male dominated classroom and/or workplace? That means quotas which mean equal outcomes, not opportunity. Also, this coddling and unnecessary affirmative action does little to help those ridiculous attitudes about their competence and abilities. did you get that job because of quota or because you earned it?

      I have yet to see a compelling evidence that suggests women have less opportunity than men in STEM. STEM maybe male dominated, and some men are dicks but that doesn't mean less opportunity for women. Subtle social anxieties and stressors are not evidence of lack of opportunity. Get over it.

    136. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      So you agree there is inequality, you just don't care. You don't care that women face more obstacles than men do, as you don't think they're significant enough to warrant action. You'll find that many women in tech -- including successful women -- completely disagree.

      Sadly, I can't make you understand or care.

      Society does not owe you any favors to end peer pressure or negative stereo types. Because the way to end stereo types is to not care and ignore them and change them yourself.

      Yet you'll deride anyone who makes an effort to improve things? When people take action and work to change those expectations and stereotypes, you cry foul!

      The women in the article are doing exactly what you suggest they should do. They're working to change those attitudes and negative stereotypes.

      Why bother to fight them? Do you have some vested interest in maintaining the status quo? Are you afraid you can't compete? Are you afraid that your attitudes and values won't be socially acceptable should they succeed? What's your stake in this?

    137. Re:What about low-income boys? by kuzb · · Score: 1

      No, there isn't a good reason. Period. Segregation has been shown historically to cause far more problems than it solves.

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    138. Re:What about low-income boys? by kuzb · · Score: 1

      What you're trying to tell me here is that girls simply can't learn along side boys, which is complete and utter bullshit.

      If you want girls to feel just as empowered as boys then you have to allow them to overcome the same obstacles. This continual "girls can do anything boys can do" while saying "girls require special treatment" doublespeak is fucking ridiculous and sad. It doesn't address the problem, assuming there even is one, it addresses a symptom.

      Either they are capable of the same things, or they are not. Get off the fucking fence.

      --
      BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    139. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He agrees there's inequality, but he feels it has nothing at all to do with a lack of opportunity. Because it doesn't. There is absolutely nothing stopping any woman from perusing a technology career. In fact, I know quite a few who got the education and made it just fine.

      In short, I think you're a fucking idiot.

      The reason I would fight this kind of "help" personally is that it is damaging. We're trying to tell a group of people that they special. That they deserve to be raised above everyone else. We're teaching them to accept handouts instead of living in the real world.

    140. Re:What about low-income boys? by narcc · · Score: 1

      What you're trying to tell me here is that girls simply can't learn along side boys, which is complete and utter bullshit.

      No, that's not what I'm saying at all. How did you get that?

      If you want girls to feel just as empowered as boys then you have to allow them to overcome the same obstacles.

      The problem, as I've stated many, many, times already is that girls face significantly more obstacles than boys do. If they only faced the same obstacles, there wouldn't be a problem.

      Nothing I've written in this post should surprise you. I suspect you're being intentionally obtuse.

    141. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem, as I've stated many, many, times already is that girls face significantly more obstacles than boys do. If they only faced the same obstacles, there wouldn't be a problem.

      Yes, obstacles such as people who treat girls and women like delicate flowers, wanting to solve all the girls' problems for them, instead of teaching girls to overcome obstacles themselves... like how boys are raised.

    142. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you could state the good reasons, could be stated, but all we get is its like having shared changing rooms which it clearly is not. There is quite a big social taboo about the opposite sex seeing each other naked.

      The other reason is poor girls somehow get less opportunity to learn programming than poor boys, where really they just show less interest, if you live in a free society then you should be free to choose what you want to do, not have it rammed down your throat.

      Boys show less interest in ballet, sorry, have inherently less opportunities in ballet, does it mean we should be providing free ballet lessons for them?

      yes all males should be forced to do ballet, to create equally.

    143. Re:What about low-income boys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There is quite a big social taboo about the opposite sex seeing each other naked.

      There was quite a big social taboo about homosexual relationships.

      Now that gay marriage is accepted, and the trans community is asking for similar consideration, do you think gender--segregated in locker rooms and public bathrooms should persist?

    144. Re:What about low-income boys? by Meski · · Score: 1

      Make it a "Laconic" mod.

    145. Re:What about low-income boys? by Meski · · Score: 1

      THere wouldn't be much CS studying going on in a room full of naked boys and girls.

  2. First! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pussy!

    1. Re:First! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're "second pussy", which makes you an asshole.

    2. Re:First! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You love it.

  3. ONLY BAD GIRLS DON'T LEARN TO CODE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  4. No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Viol8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How come sexual discrimination seems to be a one way thing with the political classes? Can you imagine the fuss and uproar if someone dared suggest a National Center for Men & [insert vocation with not many men here]? I'm sick & tired of this hypocritical social engineering.

    1. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Trust me, you want it to be girls. I've seen this website. All they have is a black leather couch and some cameras.

    2. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Let me guess... you also want there to be a National Association for the Advancement of White People, don't you?

    3. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0, Troll

      So you're saying boys are being discriminated against when it comes to computer science? People are saying such as ‘boys aren’t good at math or technology'

      Get your head out of your ass sometime.

    4. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Penguinisto · · Score: 0

      Someone once mentioned that about forming a Caucasian College Fund, just to see what the SJW crowd would do about it.

      However, unlike the proven and historical discrimination against folks based on melanin content, I have yet to see or hear of anyone who was actively turned away from a CompSci class (let alone a whole university) based on having two X chromosomes.

      Come to think of it, a huge chunk of CompSci's earliest pioneers were (drum roll please...) women. In fact, here's a fun tidbit: The very first modern female CompSci academic got her PhD in 1965 - right at the very dawn of the field ( and get this - she was a Catholic nun.)

      TL;DR - this alleged 'bias' against females in CompSci is a tissue of lies at best, and history proves it.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by srussia · · Score: 4, Funny

      Let me guess... you also want there to be a National Association for the Advancement of White People, don't you?

      Nah, the NAACP already does that through their Spokane chapter.

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    6. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Viol8 · · Score: 0

      Spare me the feeble straw man attempt.

      "Get your head out of your ass sometime."

      I don't own a donkey. Oh, did you mean "arse"?

    7. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Squiddie · · Score: 1, Troll

      So you're saying boys are being discriminated against

      Actually yes, this is exactly what this story is. Two siblings of opposite sexes now have unequal opportunities purely do to sex. Sorry little poor boys, your sister is more worthy than you. If you can show me anywhere where there is actual discrimination against girls, I'll concede the point, but I bet you that you can't find a single example.

    8. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obvious solution is to tattoo the bad boy when you were a little experiment to see how entitled to men trying to help them. Any information that clashed with their current beliefs. My brother is marrying a feminist but can’ s own are indistinguishable. Instead, we must lure them back into the ocean and turning girls into monsters. This way you can’ s clubs where they spoke freely with other men, went to men trying to get married. ’ s magazines spend a lot of time, they provide their philosophy on their enemies is even more culpable for what feminists hate than the men purchasing print media or watching a TV program. After all, if a conversation about solving black crime gets stopped two sentences in with cries of racism, that problem can never be adequately addressed.

    9. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Progressive propaganda to the degeneration of American women. All loves, even when they are super awesome just the way the Duggars made themselves a lightning rod for SJWs to attack male sexual desire is to wean ourselves from the corruption and decadence of Western Europe to pursue it in the center, women in computing. The first amendment gives men the ability to say that, I discovered ROK while working in Thailand and, Pope Gregory tells us, he all but covered his ears while shouting,’ ll have a friend to share their chores with. Through his example he attracted followers who wanted what he had. Multiple families working together increases efficiency in all the well worn, highly skilled slut for a village. For this she offers up Macomber’ s unique character and needs.

    10. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Two siblings of opposite sexes now have unequal opportunities purely do to sex.

      You don't mind if we judge based on spelling, though, right?

    11. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by BVis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't need to be turned away to be discouraged from entering the program. A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers is not my idea of a nurturing setting for a young woman. Add that with the condescension from the faculty, the peer pressure, and limited job prospects after graduation (after all girls can't possibly be any good at programming) and you have a proportional shortage of women in the field.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    12. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boys are behind at reading from the age of 5, way more women go to university, twice as many women study medicine.

      Backlash time !

    13. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by NotDrWho · · Score: 1, Troll

      So you're saying boys are being discriminated against when it comes to computer science?

      I'll go much further than that. I'm saying NO ONE is being discriminated against when it comes to computer science, not by race or gender anyway. This has been the case for decades now. I can't remember a single story of a racial minority or woman being denied admission to any mainstream CS program on the basis of their race or gender since the 60's. Though with all this pressure to *favor* them, I expect this will change soon (unfortunately).

      The issue now isn't about stopping discrimination. It's about some SJW's wanting to force society to look exactly the way that SJW's think it SHOULD look like. According to them, there SHOULD be an even racial/gender split in CS. If females and minorities refuse to play along with this and choose CS as a major, then the CS programs themselves should be forced to encourage them to enter CS at the expense of evil white males--even if it means excluding deserving white males and actively discriminating against them. Society should be FORCED to act and look the way that liberals want it to.

      This isn't about fighting discrimination, and hasn't been for a very long time. It's about imposing social engineering by force.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    14. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want you to help women when she writes: Male allies often position themselves in opposition to typically sexist dudes in order to find suitable wives in the second circle, and men on the other end, Kate Upton made a hefty million for selling and objectifying her body as one of the feminine nature given to her younger sister, of mind, and generally wasting their lives accordingly.

    15. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      So you're saying boys are being discriminated against when it comes to computer science? People are saying such as 'boys aren't good at math or technology'

      Get your head out of your ass sometime.

      I'm not saying that there's not some level of discrimination against women, or any other group for that matter. But I don't think discrimination is the sole, or probably even the biggest factor here.

      I have a daughter and I see how society in general treats and raises girls. I never raised her to believe she needed to be a cute little princess, nor did I discourage it. I supported anything educational and fun that I didn't feel was harmful to her. And never once told her there was something that she couldn't do simply because she was a girl. She excels in school and is in every advanced placement class there is and is taking math at two grades higher than her other classmates.

      Then I see how much differently her friends parents raise their kids. Girls are given play kitchens and princess movies. WTF? I got those things for my daughter when she wanted them. But I also got her a microscope, dinosaurs, and other things she asked for that are generally reserved for boys. She also had a computer of her own at two years old and a bunch of edutainment programs. The only thing she wanted for her 7th birthday was to have her computer hooked up to the internet. She's on some of the social media sites now, but she used it for her school reports and to put together various presentations for science classes.

      I've also witnessed some of her male classmates be chastised by their parents for being outdone by my daughter. I couldn't tell you how many times I heard parents tell their sons to "man up" because of something they couldn't or wouldn't do that my daughter could. This happens with mothers as much as fathers, surprisingly.

      I grew up poor and lived in areas that I'm guessing most on /. would be scared to even drive through in an armored vehicle. It was also a very different time. So between being poor and the stigma of being smart making you a "nerd", it wasn't easy to follow your interests and not get into fights over it. I got into plenty of scraps in my youth. So, yes, I can remember a time when boys were discriminated against who were into technology. Some of that probably still exists in poorer areas.

      But I guess it's easier to blame an industry for these shortcomings rather than our society in general.

    16. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bottom line is that this program is sexist. It shouldn't matter who it's sexist against. If there are other low income programs out there that are discriminating against women, those are sexist too. You can't really fix a sexist problem with more sexism. Racism too.

    17. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Horseshit. Coding by its nature can be solitary activity, you don't need a "nurturing setting". You either like it and can do it or you don't and can't. Your post just sounds like a list of whining excuses for someone who wasn't up to it. Perhaps it you?

    18. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, I don't think any job offers a nurturing atmosphere as their main attraction, and second the "women can't possibly be any good a programming" statement is a straw man.

      Are you trying to say that women need a nurturing environment because they are too weak to deal with the atmosphere that men can? THAT is sexist.

    19. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is... nothing you said is true. Brogrammers are a media and pop culture thing, not really common. Assholes exist in every field. So does peer pressure and a potential for limited job prospects. Shitty faculty can be found in any educational program. And who gives a shit about a proportional gender shortage. Where's the outrage for the male nurse? Maybe they just don't want to do the jobs?

      It's funny that your entire post is essentially saying that young women shouldn't have to deal with the same problems that every other person deals with. Just because they're women. Which is not sexist. Not at all.

    20. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by BVis · · Score: 2

      You can't complete a degree sitting in your dorm room; eventually you have to interact with faculty and your peers. Most programmers also work as part of a team.

      You can't just write off aspects of social interaction as unnecessary. Everyone has to work with SOMEONE, even if it's a client. Your response sounds like oversimplification and bias.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    21. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by LaurenCates · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you need to be "nurtured", you don't deserve a career that involves anything more complicated than saying "Do you want fries with that?".

      The word "nurturing", when used by an adult in relation to an adult (read: college student or older person, who can vote, drive and have sex), reeks of the kind of person that whines about their needs not being met, and holds everyone but themselves responsible for the task.

      Professional careers, especially ones that require a lot of motivation for self-teaching and rapidly move and change in under a decade, and especially ones that command a high salary, don't benefit from people who need to be "nurtured". They benefit the greatest from people who don't need mommy and daddy figures to do inventories on feelings.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    22. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never, ever, saw any of that. Women just didn't enroll.

    23. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      ...what sibling said: Horseshit.

      Seriously - I've put up with that same damned condescension and arrogance from faculty and developers alike (e.g. how *dare* some grunt EE with a backwoods Arkansas-flavored accent lecture me about mistakes in my design!), peer pressure, etc.

      Here's a clue - *everybody* gets to put up with those obstacles; the difference between success and failure lies in how well you not only fight back, but transcend them.

      And what do you mean by "limited job prospects"? I don't know where you live, but skill in certain languages will get you feted and chased after by recruiters out on the West Coast no matter how your biology is plumbed. Same if you're DevOps or a DBA...

      But, I guessing that as a guy, you're just guessing (or worse, relaying what you were told by people with agenda afoot). Seriously - Show us verifiable evidence of this discrimination (and I mean factual, verifiable evidence, not some SJW's unverifiable sob story) - I actually want to see some.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    24. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Viol8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know what university you went to , but I had quite a number of girls in my CS classes and none of them had a problem interacting with the guys or the other girls and they all passed fine. Seems to me you've dreamt up some anti geek, anti male BS to suit your agenda.

    25. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I chatted recently with a woman on OKCupid who got degrees in ESM, and ended up working as a high school teacher. Somehow she managed to complete her degrees, but according to her there was a lot of poor treatment by the other students, and one professor told her point-blank that she wasn't wanted there. That professor was Middle Eastern. Surprise, surprise. Of course, the SJWs just love Muslims, so I wonder what they'd say about this.

    26. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers

      What department? Where?

      I recently graduated from one of the largest CS programs in North America. Nearly all of the students were timid nerdy types who only liked to discuss technical things.

      Granted, we all went home and masturbated furiously to pictures of naked cartoons. That didn't come up in class, though.

    27. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think you're part of the problem. you've decided there is a problem, and just proclaim it through innuendo.
      [hint, facts might help your case.]

    28. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      Such things exist: http://www.nursingtimes.net/nu...

      There was no outrage and no claims of sexism when efforts were made to recruit more men into nursing and education, by the way. Presumably now you are aware of this you condemn it, right?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    29. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by AdamHaun · · Score: 2

      I had quite a number of girls in my CS classes and none of them had a problem interacting with the guys or the other girls

      That you know of. A lot of things can happen in one-on-one conversations or behind closed doors.

      --
      Visit the
    30. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      This programme is aimed at children. Nurturing is a word commonly associated with the way we treat children...

      Also, most people don't instantly become cynical, hardened adults at age 18. If you really think that anyone who fails to reach that standard should only be flipping burgers then you would exclude many of the best workers we have from our high skill economy.

      I'm afraid attitudes like yours are part of the problem, which is why these stories keep coming up. Most people take a more realistic, understanding and balanced approach. It's the relatively small number like you that ruin it, and then blame everyone else for refusing to tolerate you.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    31. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by BVis · · Score: 1

      You don't actually know any women in IT or programming, do you?

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    32. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      As well as in your imagination.

    33. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this is why the AAMN (http://aamn.org/) - the American Assembly for Men in Nursing - is so controversial.

      And don't even get me started on MenTeach (http://www.menteach.org/) - that caused such a hue and cry that teaching will probably never recover!

      The fuss and uproar over these things is all in your mind. I'm sick and tired of this hypocritical Men's Rights posturing which pretends that any time somebody says "hey we should try and make industry X more attractive to women," it's a deliberate frontal assault on white manhood.

      Stop trying so hard to preserve your boy's culture, and maybe you'll even get to date a woman someday.

    34. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers is not my idea of a nurturing setting for a young woman.

      This is pure fantasy. Brogrammers don't exist.

    35. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      I'm currently sitting very near to several. They're not shrinking violets or failures, though.

      BTW - I'd still love to see that evidence.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    36. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TL;DR - this alleged 'bias' against females in CompSci is a tissue of lies at best, and history proves it.

      So women WERE, originally, pursuing Computer Science careers - and in many cases, doing a fabulous job of it.

      And yet, those numbers are (and have been) steadily declining for years.

      If you want to invoke history as a defense, you can't ignore the fact that history tells us there is something that is discouraging women from entering the field, and that discouraging element has increased its efficacy in recent years.

      Care to hazard a guess at explaining that, Professor History?

    37. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      You just saw the extent of his evidence.

    38. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      According to blacks / feminists, that's because putting out effort and working for something is a PRIVILEGE, so you're "privileged" by being discriminated against. Yeah, no one with a functioning brain understands their "logic".

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    39. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      How would you like to make $1,000 to $5,000 per day?

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    40. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      One program that no one has heard of versus countless anti-male programs with celebrities / billionaires / politicians supporting it and every "news" organization praising it. Yup, totally the same thing.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    41. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by TheEmpyrean · · Score: 1

      well yes, but we usually just call it 'college'

    42. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Of course I mind - your judgement should also be based on grammar.

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    43. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She must not own a recording device to get him saying it. Otherwise, HE wouldn't be wanted there and she'd be rocking it. ;)

    44. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This programme is aimed at children. Nurturing is a word commonly associated with the way we treat children...

      The comment by BVis was "A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers", and "condescension from the faculty, the peer pressure, and limited job prospects after graduation"

      Those are not things commonly associated with children.

      The GP even explicit clarified he was talking about "college student or older person, who can vote, drive and have sex"

      Also, most people don't instantly become cynical, hardened adults at age 18.

      False dilemma. You're not stuck between the two extremes of needing nurturing, to being cynical and hardened.

      I'm afraid attitudes like yours are part of the problem

      So you're blaming him...

      and then blame everyone else

      ...and accuse him of being the one who is blaming everyone else. Classy.

      Furthermore, if he is indeed a minority, then there shouldn't even be a need for this program.

      So which is it? Are most of society still blind to feminist issues and we gotta take extra effort to give girls and women special treatment? Or is it only a tiny minority ruining it for everyone else, making these programs a waste of money as they'd be mostly preaching to the choir, while guys like GP just use such programs as evidence to double down on their preexisting attitudes? You can't have it both ways.

    45. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has to do with bloody prostate cancer. I don't foresee too many men complaining about a program for ovarian cancer that ONLY reaches out to women.

    46. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I think people just want to complain. There was a "gender discrimination" article about CS a while back that garnished a lot of attention. The funny thing it started with the father talking about how smart and interested his daughter was in CS, but ended with her dropping out because it was too hard and all of the boys already knew most of the material coming into the class. I suddenly lost all sympathy.

      It was probably a bad example of what women are experiencing, but the amount of attention and community support made me question the rational. She couldn't compete, that's all there is to it.

    47. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      It's a liberal thing. You wouldn't understand. Just wave as they go down the highway to Hell.

    48. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      " if someone dared suggest a National Center for Men"

      All of the existing biased institutions are still there. Once instance of not continuing the existing implicit bias does not mean that all bias is in the opposite direction.

      If you don't accept doing anything about that bias and you don't accept any new institutions without that bias than you are supporting the existing bias.

      Just because your politics are normative does not mean that you don't have any politics.

    49. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      I absolutely think the NAACP should at least be renamed to something more egalitarian. I do not support racist ideas of only helping certain kinds of people. Work to raise the floor for everyone regardless of skin color or be silent.

      --
      Good-bye
    50. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That you know of. A lot of things can happen in one-on-one conversations or behind closed doors.

      What the fuck is this, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Conversation?

      Stand down, asshole.

    51. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't actually know any women in IT or programming, do you?

      My ex-wife would take you out back and kick your ass.. and she has an MS in Computer Science and works for Oracle making six digits. Fuck off.

      In addition, female candidates (esp software engineers) are HEAVILY favored where I work.

      Again, shut the fuck up about which you know nothing about.

    52. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Maybe, maybe not. Tenured professors are really hard to fire.

    53. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Programming may indeed be a solitary activity, but design, testing, and deployment are not. The only thing horseshit is your self-centered attitude.

    54. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the program is aimed at children, then what to 20-year-old "brogrammers" have to do with anything? If the program is aimed at children, then why is it only aimed at children that are identified by a specific gender?

    55. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers is not my idea of a nurturing setting for a young woman. Add that with the condescension from the faculty, the peer pressure, and limited job prospects after graduation

      The mistake in your thinking is the assumption that young boys don't face any of this. They do. There is nothing glamorous or popular about being a computer nerd and, regardless of your gender, your going to catch shit from all sides for it.

    56. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but you don't see it propped up by the state or given the media campaign that non-white-non-straight-non-males get. Both are social engineering, and are toxic to everyone's civil liberties.

      The last thing men need is more opportunities to talk about their feelings as they have been inundated with such 'opportunities' since the rise of feminism. After all, in the mind of a feminist, a proper 'reconstructed' man should think and feel like a woman. In reality, counseling mght help women, but men are at their best when given a chance to make it for themselves without a lot of bureaucratic entanglements cramping creativity. Of course, this offends social justice types who lack said creativity. These people fear meritocracies and want them abolished for 'great social justice.'

    57. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by narcc · · Score: 0

      I can recognize the privilege I enjoy by being a good-looking, tall, straight, white, male or a healthy normal weight. I know (to some degree) the advantages those qualities have granted me both personally and professionally. Let's also not forget my upbringing: a middle-class family, an essentially crime-free neighborhood, an excellent school district, and parents that supported and encouraged our interests and paid careful attention to our education.I started live on easy mode.

      I had to work, sure, but not nearly as hard as someone not so advantaged.

      Because I recognize that privilege, I don't blame my mistakes and failures on the poor, minorities, immigrants, or women. I also don't see efforts to "level the playing field" like this as threatening.

    58. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by narcc · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that this woman faced challenges and obstacles that her male classmates didn't have to face?

      That doesn't sound like equality to me.

    59. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by russotto · · Score: 1

      I can recognize the privilege I enjoy by being a good-looking, tall, straight, white, male or a healthy normal weight. I know (to some degree) the advantages those qualities have granted me both personally and professionally. Let's also not forget my upbringing: a middle-class family, an essentially crime-free neighborhood, an excellent school district, and parents that supported and encouraged our interests and paid careful attention to our education.I started live on easy mode.

      This is a fine religious affirmation, but it's unlikely to convince anyone but the already converted.

    60. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 1

      "... condescension from the faculty, the peer pressure, and limited job prospects after graduation..."

      Bravo. Way to encourage girls to participate in CS!

    61. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by ThatsLoseNotLoose · · Score: 1

      That link points to a story about an online chat for "men and anyone with concerns or questions about prostate cancer".

      A chat run by a charity. In the UK.

      I don't want to go out on a limb here, but I don't think the Department of Housing and Urban Development, or any US government agency has anything to do with it, so que sera sera.

    62. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're crippled by terrible English skills, however.

    63. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I can recognize the privilege I enjoy by being a good-looking, tall, straight, white, male or a healthy normal weight.

      So you now assume that any unattractive, short, homosexual, coloured male has the same privilege as good-looking, tall, straight, white males? The only differentiator from the "men-are-privileged" mob is the sex.

      I started live on easy mode.

      I agree, and it's because you played life on the easy mode that you have the opinions you do.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    64. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      You can't complete a degree sitting in your dorm room;

      I did. More than once. Never been to a single lecture.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    65. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      You don't actually know any women in IT or programming, do you?

      My boss is one.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    66. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, friend. As a white person who grew up in a sub-poverty-line family, I can tell you that there is no secret white-males-only club that opens all the doorways. Your 'privilege' is a result of you growing up in a well-off family, with parents who had time to care, and likely had connections to help open up opportunities.

    67. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Such things exist: http://www.nursingtimes.net/nu...

      There was no outrage and no claims of sexism when efforts were made to recruit more men into nursing and education, by the way. Presumably now you are aware of this you condemn it, right?

      If the best you can do is an online chat service open to all (not just men), then you've already lost. You keep getting asked for evidence. Repeatedly. And this is what you eventually come up with?

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    68. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by narcc · · Score: 1

      So you're denying that I enjoy privilege because of my physical appearance and gender?

      If I were a poor black girl, raised by a single mother, and attended an inner-city school that I would have had to work just as hard? That I would have just assumed I'd be able to go to college, instead of that being a foolish pipe dream? That in a professional context people would automatically listen when I spoke, on the assumption that I'm competent and capable?

      We don't even have to go that far. If I were simply ugly, short, and fat I know that I wouldn't get the same consideration.

      I think it's pretty obvious that I enjoy privilege. I'm having a very difficult time understanding why you believe me to be a victim!

    69. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A department filled with hormonal 20-year-old brogrammers is not my idea of a nurturing setting for a young woman

      Gotta keep the dainty flowers away from them terrible menfolk, right gramps? A woman has no place beside those rough and rowdy animals.

      Horseshoe theory in action.

    70. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by narcc · · Score: 1

      So you now assume that any unattractive, short, homosexual, coloured male has the same privilege as good-looking, tall, straight, white males?

      Of course not. Gender is just one of many reasons that I enjoy privilege.

      The only differentiator from the "men-are-privileged" mob is the sex.

      Well, it is true that gender is a factor. Depending on the circumstances, it can be quite significant. For example, people are generally more receptive to male speakers than female speakers.

    71. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Were "brogrammers" the bigger sport playing jocks that beat up anyone in the CS club?
      Because it's a shame if those assholes are picking on women too. That would be fair treatment, and we can't have that.

    72. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in agreement, a lot of companies want women IT types, but at the lower levels, it's not typically as much fun as other career paths, and in many cases, women tend to gravitate towards IS degrees focusing on management, and having been in IT for more than 30 years, I can tell you that the lowest paid manager usually makes more than the highest paid geek on staff (YMMV depending on company), but my last two directors were women, and they had the chops to back up their positions, and I pretty much stayed off their radar in terms of getting my work done.

      Then again, I also know several very good CIO/CISO/CTO's who are also women, and they know how to get stuff done...

      Hormonal 20 year olds...pfft, most 20 year old guys I went to school with were too busy doing homework in the lab to have an active social life, and we did have some pretty good women CS candidates, some of which were SMOKING hot (i.e. - could be runway models) but they had mad ninja skillz (this was back in the day of mainframes and CRT's, mind you)...

    73. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I grew up poor. Not 1 slice of bread for the week poor, but poor enough to get reduced lunch at school at times. I didn't have anything fancy growing up. Sure, sometimes some thing SEEMED fancy, but knowing what I know now, I know they weren't. Do I get a check for all the privilege I missed growing up since I'm a white guy?

    74. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, it doesn't. I never said it did.

    75. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People like the muppet you're replying to get their knowledge about the tech world from TV shows. Yanno, like CSI where a woman gets beat up by a guy so that he can "level up".

    76. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by LaurenCates · · Score: 1

      Really?

      My attitude is part of the problem?

      Because when I was 18, I recognized that I was an adult and responsible for myself. I didn't whinge and whine about needing nurturing because I knew that failure would mean a backslide into debt and putting career plans on hold for another half year or more. My need for "nurturing" took a far, far backseat to me getting shit done.

      I didn't put my career or my education on anyone else's shoulders. Maybe more kids need to be taught that if you want something, you need to learn not just how to do things, but to claw and scratch if necessary.

      Because everyone deserves a "nice" place to learn and work, but sometimes, those things aren't feasible and you have to work with what you get. And yes, for most people that don't have an "in" and cushy life supports behind them, that means toughening up.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    77. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by LaurenCates · · Score: 1

      Well, technically, if you're going to talk about the environment that breeds what people perceive to be the rejection of women, then you have to talk about how the environment exists and how it has to change so that when women show up, they don't feel like they've wasted their lives on an education that stops just as soon as they get to the studio.

      Or, if that environment is bred in the college classroom and other lab spaces.

      Not that it is, at least not everywhere, but if you're going to talk in terms of shortages in a society where it isn't against the law to go into any career to you damned well please, you have to address the problem from top to bottom.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    78. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News flash: most white men are poor.

      Your privilege was being raised in a middle class family.

    79. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then by your logic, we need to segregate all classes.

      Sorry, women are more favored in hiring and have more job prospects.

      Next...

    80. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is boys who are discriminated and discouraged in school.

    81. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know you're full of shit when you start making attacks.

    82. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by narcc · · Score: 1

      according to her there was a lot of poor treatment by the other students, and one professor told her point-blank that she wasn't wanted there.

      ...

    83. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      How come sexual discrimination seems to be a one way thing with the political classes? Can you imagine the fuss and uproar if someone dared suggest a National Center for Men & [insert vocation with not many men here]? I'm sick & tired of this hypocritical social engineering.

      Yes, I know, the only real minority rights group nowadays is us white, middle class, heterosexual males.

      I'm sure that, if only I were a black disabled lesbian, I'd have it easy.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    84. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      Yes, and because Barack Obama got elected as president, that means there is no racism in the US.

      Clown.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    85. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by htomc42 · · Score: 1

      >I'm sure that, if only I were a black disabled lesbian, I'd have it easy.

      Ah, but perhaps you are, on the inside! That could be your self-identity, and how dare anyone say otherwise!
      Time to stand up for your rights.

    86. Re: No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just gave you two examples of "man-centric" advocacy groups working to increase the opportunities and exposure of men in traditionally female-dominated jobs.

      Which the person I responded to claimed would cause some sort of great disturbance in the force, and result in the end of days.

      If you're spouting horseshit, and it's trivially easy to demonstrate that it's horseshit, don't be surprised, or call it an "attack," when somebody says "everything coming out of your mouth right now is utter horseshit."

    87. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      More precisely, she couldn't compete because she started at a considerable disadvantage. The boys went in knowing a lot more than she did. Very likely if there'd been a more basic class to bring her up to speed she'd have succeeded in the class.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    88. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no doubt about the existence of harassment of women in any CS (or general) university class. The real question is about whether this harassment is systematic as feminists are implying or is this harassment perpetrated by a few assholes that are no more common than the average asshole in the wider population. My guess is that there is no systematic harassment of women in the CS community.

    89. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      That could be said of anyone. Add some optional easier starting classes. I guess I assumed the boys knew more because they started self learning at a young age. Many high end Universities have something like 50%-80% drop out rates in their CS 101 classes because it is so hard, with no option to minor in CS. Considered one of the hardest courses, worse than many other STEM fields.

    90. Re:No National Center for Men & Tech...? by AdamHaun · · Score: 1

      We don't have to guess. We can listen to the actual women involved. An awful lot of them seem to think there's a systemic problem. I don't see any reason to dismiss them.

      --
      Visit the
  5. Well they're getting closer to the truth by MikeRT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color."

    Inch by inch, the social justice warriors are getting closer to the truth that boys dominate these fields because of all of their informal experience. Why? Because boys tend to be more willing to go against peer pressure and do what interests them. Male nerds and geeks may resent peer pressure and bullying, but they'll stick to what they like. Never met a single boy who took the attitude that he couldn't pursue his hobbies because of peer pressure unless those hobbies were things you don't mention in polite society (and maybe even make the avante garde squeamish).

    No, girls don't need "more pushing." It would be a problem if a family let the sons fire up an IDE, editor + interpreter, etc. and told the girls that that was forbidden for them. I can pretty much assure you, that in the vast majority of American households, even religious ones, that doesn't happen. What naturally happens is that the boys will say "this is cool" and try it out and the girl will make all sorts of excuses ranging from lack of interest, to what would her girlfriends think.

    And no, boys by and large don't put pressure on girls to not share hobbies with them. I've never met a red-blooded male who thought a generally feminine female who shared most of his interests was a bad thing.

    1. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      " boys tend to be more willing to go against peer pressure and do what interests them."

      LMOL - yeah that explains all those nerd with dates at the prom and giving football players swirlies....

    2. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I find your comment offensive.

    3. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      Way to miss the point, big guy

      GP was saying that even when picked on mercilessly in social situations, boys will tend to not only stick with their geek-like hobbies, but use them as a shelter of sorts from the outside world... so long as it still interests them to do so.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by TWX · · Score: 1

      Inch by inch, the social justice warriors are getting closer to the truth that boys dominate these fields because of all of their informal experience. Why? Because boys tend to be more willing to go against peer pressure and do what interests them. Male nerds and geeks may resent peer pressure and bullying, but they'll stick to what they like. Never met a single boy who took the attitude that he couldn't pursue his hobbies because of peer pressure unless those hobbies were things you don't mention in polite society (and maybe even make the avante garde squeamish).

      No, girls don't need "more pushing." It would be a problem if a family let the sons fire up an IDE, editor + interpreter, etc. and told the girls that that was forbidden for them. I can pretty much assure you, that in the vast majority of American households, even religious ones, that doesn't happen. What naturally happens is that the boys will say "this is cool" and try it out and the girl will make all sorts of excuses ranging from lack of interest, to what would her girlfriends think.

      And no, boys by and large don't put pressure on girls to not share hobbies with them. I've never met a red-blooded male who thought a generally feminine female who shared most of his interests was a bad thing.

      I don't think that your conclusions are entirely correct.

      Boys accept being ostracized from the mainstream more readily than girls, and ostracized boys form their own culture. One of those cultures revolves around technology past the point of being a simple user of it. To a degree it's involuntary. There are girls in that culture too, but in my anecdotal experiences many of the girls are there more by choice than out of necessity.

      The nature of manipulating technology lends itself to those that are accustomed to isolation and to spending very long periods of time working on something to the exclusion of other things. Those that find themselves alone already start out with a perverse advantage in that regard.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    5. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's the dream of every young (straight) geek guy to find a real geek girl to share their life with. Most of these guys secretly want a geek girl that's close to equal but just slightly better than them in certain areas so they have someone to push them and compete with.

      These are the same guys wondering why women are so focused on fashion and reality TV, things which are not logical.

      Each of these geek guys secretly wants to be asked by a pretty young thing real technical questions about what they do, not "how can you spend all of your time in front of a computer?" but "exactly what is this compiler you're talking about?"

      I'm 37 years old, I've been a professional geek since I was 18, I have come across these geek girls. The place I came across the most of them was an ISP that attracted young people in general. Even in that place most of the females saw what they did as a job to make a few bucks, but roughly 5% were interested in doing what the slightly older guys did (which included me, one of the older people there at the age of 21).

      I have become convinced from my own interactions that this just is not a female thing. I helped anyone who asked for help, I encouraged learning, self research and gave good long explanations that were fit for a classroom environment. The fact that I have seen women do well, succeed, and run with the men tells me they can. The fact only a few of them would take the initiative to do it when you had someone like me, and my other employees that I encouraged to help and to train any who asked - and did - yet only about 5% wanted to know more than the minimum causes me to wash my hands of it - stop trying to guilt trip me for being good at my job when there are proportionally way less women who can keep up.

      Since that job I've worked with other women, other good women who I consider my level. I've also worked with quite a few affirmative action women who had my job title, usually got paid a little better than me, yet would crawl around in the sub floor to track cables because it was icky, wouldn't/couldn't move any equipment, wouldn't terminate fiber because they didn't like the epoxy, wouldn't put on the asbestos suit and run cable with the guys because it's hot and sweaty. Nope, most wanted to do the paperwork - which I didn't really mind, because I hate paperwork, but other than title and the official list of duties these women were not my direct peers. Even at the worst of these jobs there was usually one or two women would would run with the guys, but for each of them there was two or three that wouldn't. A man taking the same attitude towards work as those others wouldn't last more than a week or two before being let go.

      I'm getting pretty tired of these guilt-tripping affirmative action programs. Instead of giving me more of that 5% or 1 in 3 depending on where I was I'm worried these programs might work and flood the workplace with the 95% or 2 in 3 that the natural dedicated geeks, yes, the men and the women who will run at their level will be expected to carry.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    6. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      It's the dream of every young (straight) geek guy to find a real geek girl to share their life with.

      I take it you've met me and my wife, then. Alas, the only Dave I remember from back then died many years ago....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    7. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by fwarren · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just don't understand. Here is my background.

      Mom was a schizophrenic, my dad an alcoholic. We moved every year or so till I was 13. At that point we were stuck in a crummy motel in central California. This is in the early 80s. So when I was 16 I would walk into K-Mart and local appliance stores, and play around on the Commodore VIC 20's and later Commodore 64s. The local community college had a Commodore PET computer.

      I had no money, no one to show me the ropes, not the best nor most stable education, parents that could not take care of themselves, so I had to watch over them and my 3 younger siblings. I taught myself Commodore Basic, then how to program in assembly. This consisted of writing a program on paper, looking up the opcodes, converting them from hex to decimal and then writing a loader that would POKE those values into memory and then do a SYS call to run the machine language program. From there I moved on to learn FORTH.

      I will admit I am a male. But I had SO many disadvantages and yet I had a desire to learn how to program. Lets not forget wanting to learn how to do this classified me as a geek and meant I had to deal with lots of kids and peer pressure telling me there was something wrong with me on a fundamental level for engaging in such activities.

      Exactly what is holding back any boy or girl in any halfway modern country from learning to program? "Boo Hoo, I would have to buck social norms to learn to program." Well it is not much of a dream or desire if that would stop you. "Boo Hoo, no one will teach me." There are thousands of hours of video on youtube, You can google out books on any programming language you want. If you don't like the teaching style of some video or book, try a different one.

      The world in inherently "I don't give a damn". If you are a former heroin addict and you want to work in pharmacology, well you are going to have some hurdles to overcome. I can't tell you why any particular girl in junior high would decide they don't even want to know about computers. I can't tell you why a girl would decide against a career in programming. What I can tell you from pulling myself up in a world filled with welfare recipients who are just wanting a check is this. If you have to coddle and beg to get people into a program, and work hard at removing every barrier to their success, it hurts the drive and motivation for most people. Without it having some personal cost it has little value to them. Why work hard? If they don't do well, someone will step in and help them. If other things seem more important at the moment, walk away, the program will always welcome them back later with open arms.

      TL;DR - If you are not willing to fight to become something because you want it, what outside program is really going to make a difference.

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
    8. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What the f**k are you talking about?!

      Everything he said was absolutely true. I am a consultant in the software development field, and have run across many women in the field at the dozens of companies that I have consulted with. Never once did I ever get the impression that the men in those environment had any issues with that, nor did I get the feeling of sexism at all. If anything there was an unusual level of respect for those women because they defied the social conventions from their childhood and took up a 'nerdy' career. Women don't need handouts to be encouraged to take up this career, what they need is their non-tech inclined peers to get over the BS social cliches. You find out how to explain something like that to a bunch of young, ignorant, and inexperienced high school kids and you will have solved at least half of the worlds problems right there.

      Pay no mind to the fact that studies have shown that women are significantly more "right brained" than men. And generally prefer careers that appeal to a naturally more empathetic and compassionate personality. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but you can't simply re-program an entire gender to fulfill some female/minority social quota. It doesn't matter how many incentives you give to women, most simply just don't want to go into IT related fields. And for fucks sake stop blaming those of us in the field with your "sexism" excuse, the disgustingly arrogant, steaming pile of bull shit that it is.

    9. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by narcc · · Score: 0

      Sounds to me like you had a lot of opportunity and resources available to you.

      Do you want praise for taking advantage of those? Why do you want to deny others opportunity?

    10. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by LaurenCates · · Score: 1

      No mod points, but I did want to at least contribute a *slow clap* for this post.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    11. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I've also worked with quite a few affirmative action women who had my job title, usually got paid a little better than me, yet would crawl around in the sub floor to track cables because it was icky, wouldn't/couldn't move any equipment, wouldn't terminate fiber because they didn't like the epoxy, wouldn't put on the asbestos suit and run cable with the guys because it's hot and sweaty.

      To paraphrase XKCD, this is how it works. If a man is shit at his job and lazy, he's shit and lazy. If a women is shit at her job and lazy, she only got there because of affirmative action.

      Seems more likely they are just victims of the Peter Principal or good at interviewing. Lots of people get into good positions because they interview well, but are actually pretty bad at their jobs in practice.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's the same opportunities as everyone else. That's the whole point. No one is being denied any opportunities the OP had. In fact it is so much easier to get into development and have access to computers that it's almost unbelievable. It's easier to get into than almost any other career out there.

      Also, try not to be such a dick. He wasn't looking for praise or denying anything to anyone. The fact that you think that kind of highlights what a moron you are. "Sounds to me like you had a lot of opportunity and resources available to you" but we need to make damn sure to provide even MORE to girls. Do you want praise for being a SJW? Why do you want to propagate gender discrimination?

    13. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      it hurts the drive and motivation for most people

      Never attribute to malice that can be explained by incompetence aside, beginning in grade school, I've long thought this is the goal. I have a background eerily similar to yours BTW, but do have fond memories of walking 4 miles to the mall to learn to program. When I was 10, I made a solo 6 mile bike ride to Radio Shack to buy a technical diagram and programming book on the TRS-80 I wanted one so badly, but by the time I had earned enough money, there were better options.

      Not only was I actively encouraged not to use computers, had to buy my own, not such an easy task for a 12 year old when computers cost (inflation adjusted) thousands of dollars. Even then not being allowed to use it until everyone else went to sleep so I could plug it in to the tv set/monitor.

    14. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The simply explanation is that you are an exception to the rule. Being poor or from a difficult background doesn't mean you can't succeed, but not everyone who can become a good programmer is as interested or determined as you at a young age. Hence, assistance programmes.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    15. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Seems more likely they are just victims of the Peter Principal or good at interviewing. Lots of people get into good positions because they interview well, but are actually pretty bad at their jobs in practice.

      You see, I can't buy that outright. I can to some degree because we had shitty men come and go and not just because they chose to, but the shitty women were allowed to stay. Most of the ones I'm referring to were new hires, but a couple were outright nepotism.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    16. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      You're a very fortunate man.

      I too am fortunate. My wife is by no means a techy geek type, but her dad is, her brother is, most of the people around her growing up were at least a little on the geek side of things so she admires the fact I am one, but that was good enough in my case, especially since I was already mid-30's when we married. I'm well past my live and breathe geek things phase, having someone who is happy with what I do with it works great for me.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    17. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I was born in the USSR, didn't see a computer until I was 13 but 'programmed' a computer on PAPER from about age of 11 because I liked reading and read an adventure book that showed me how to code to solve puzzles.

      The country fell apart, we immigrated more than once to more than one country, had to go through all that, since had no savings had to work from 16 to help support the family.

      Put myself through college by working and earning, worked in my profession since first year of university, had a full time job while doing almost full time college (got my degree in 5 years instead of 4 by taking lower course load but doing it around the year, no days off).

      Became a contractor and for 9 years did that, started my own company and have a dozen employees in 2 different countries today building software that I want to build, finding my own clients.

      I would say out of all of this, starting my own company and using my own savings as investment to build software I had no idea I could apply to anybody (find clients at all) was the hardest thing, it's a risk I took with money and time that cannot be returned unless I make it work.

      The question now is: if I were a female would I ever BOTHER to write programs on paper in the first place or not? I don't know the answer to that since I am not a female but I don't know any females that did that.

    18. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      Which is a good argument against affirmative action. If you don't have that policy in place, how can anyone make an argument that a person was only hired based on some characteristic (ignoring nepotism, which has nothing to do with gender, race, sexuality, etc.) other than their ability?

      It especially sucks for anyone who didn't need to policy to get hired as it unfairly creates an assumption that they might be otherwise unworthy of their position, which probably leads to them feeling as though they constantly have to prove themselves when they really shouldn't.

      Not that you're going to completely remove the idiots that make statements like "X because she's a woman". To some degree you'll get that anywhere you have a limited number of individuals in a group regardless of what that group is. It's human nature to try and find patterns and when your sample size is 2, it's pretty easy to fall prey to any number of cognitive biases. They really should spend more time on formal logic and logical fallacies in primary and secondary education. I don't think the world would be perfect, but it would be a lot better in general.

    19. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      My story, while not as bad in many respects as yours was just as bad if not worse as far as learning was concerned. (Better home life thankfully) I lived in the deserts of West Texas, in a poor community. There were no computers I could use, and my parents actually said "we didn't have computers when we were kids, you don't need them now", so I had next to zero family support, and next to no opportunity to learn elsewhere as the industry of my town revolved around cantaloup, onions, and cattle. I couldn't even get something from a business trash pile because business trash piles in that are consisted of animal waste and rotten vegetation.

      Despite that I read Discover Magazine, I read 321 Contact when I was young, I read Omni, I read Popular Science, I kept up with what was going on even if it was what was going on in what was practically a parallel universe. Every piece of electronic junk I could get my hands on I drug home and took apart, one of the first things I successfully fixed was 45 lb Sony Betamax. I had motors, batteries, LED's old telephones with asbestos and cloth insulators, microphones speakers, you name it hooked up with chewing gum and electric tape. Finally when I was 17 I was given an 8088 - this was right after the first socket 7 Pentiums came out. I was overjoyed to have it.

      Within a year in the business world I was ahead of many peers my own age who grew up immersed in computers (yes I moved to a metro area). Within two or three years the country bumpkin origins story was nearly completely neutralized - with one lingering exception. I never really learned to program. I do alright when I need to alter some code, but I'm not a coder, and I never found time to really learn to do it well. I was always too busy doing massive amounts of sysadmin, cabling, hardware, various whatever else work. It's still on my to-do list but it matters less all the time.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    20. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > but not everyone who can become a good programmer

      Apparently this is specially so for girls. Why give only them crutches?

    21. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by fwarren · · Score: 2

      My family was on welfare, later on I worked at the welfare department. I have seen a few people use the system to help them get someplace in life...odds are they would have found some way to make it no matter what. I have seen many people milk the system for anything they can get now, with no intention of ever getting out of it. I have also seen people with no motivation pushed by requirements into programs that had no motivation to be there.

      I stand by what I said. Most people and by that 80%+ will not value something that is given to them where they do not have to put any desire into it, any work into it, and have issues cleared out of the way for them. Why care? Opportunity will always be there?

      If you want to be a carpenter and you need tools to get an entry level job, someone helping you to get tools, be it a gift or a loan, can mean a lot. Offering someone free tools for a job, that they can then quit, continue to get aid, and also make a little extra by selling the tools, does nobody a favor.

      There is a proverb: Why is there in the hand of a fool the purchase price of wisdom, Since he has no heart for it?

      Trying to help people to get something they don't want is a waste of time. Girl or boy, rich or poor, young or old.

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
    22. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      In my 30s in mechanical engineering and this is my exact experience as well.

      When it comes down to 'equal pay' personal life choices play into this. I chose to leave the workplace to raise our family. My wife had a better/more stable job. As a couple we sat down and decided that it would be best for our family if I stayed home and she worked.

      Now that I've been out of the work place my skills are behind. I don't know what the latest TLAs or technologies are in my field. I have a gap in my resume that can only be filled with "Domestic Engineer". If I never go back to industry my lifetime earnings will be 1/3rd of what my classmates made. Why? Because they didn't leave the work force.

      On the flip side of that there is a young female manager at our company that has been climbing fast. She didn't have kids but her and her family adopted older ones. She never took leave from the office. Even as a mid level manager she was the first one in PPE. Because of that she got promoted up. Both of those were our life decisions. If you want people to stop that from being an issue stop punishing them for their decisions. Something like parental leave in the US competitive with other first world countries.

      All these initiatives keep trying to sell girls on STEM without figuring out how to sell STEM to girls. Programming, science, technology, engineering, math are all tools to do something else faster/easier/better.

      I love baking (take that gender stereotypes, it's what a stay at home dad does) and there is a huge market for making stuff that makes baking easier. I hate measuring liquids since it just takes time. I want a bartender bot for water, oil, vinegar, flour, sugar, etc. I want to take a QR code picture of a recipe and have it measure out all of the above into a bowl. My next project is to make a PID controlled ramp/soak controller for baking so that I can have the perfect crust by doing a proper temp profile.

      I can't wait until my daughter is old enough to learn programming because the first thing I'm going to ask her is "What do you hate to do?". I'm the laziest engineer I know because if I have to do something twice I'd rather write a script/program to do it. Getting girls to try and solve the problems of 5 year old boys isn't going to make them interested in something. Just sit down and ask a 5 year old girl what frustrates her and figure out how to make Programming+STEM do it for them. And if it's something that is 'cliché' for little girls to like, who cares? What if Barbie had a self driving car? In an afternoon Barbie could have a self balancing Segway and line following Barbie car.

      If there is a trinket or toy that they want/need, figure out how to 3D print it. If the part breaks, figure out why. Our local librarian bought a 3D printer with grant money and is trying to turn our tiny library into a small maker space. She has a bunch of 3D models of jewelry and small things to get girls interested in it, and it works. Sure they are low quality cheap parts but the real 'product' is that the girls know G-code, grbl, parametric modeling, etc. So that when they can afford to they can buy a CNC Machine to turn jewelry. I've already told her that I can teach the kids how to use the 3D printer to make a mold to pour actual metal. Johnny Tremain was 14 and doing the same stuff. (But didn't have good PPE). If she came out and said that a girl reached the limit of what the 3D printer could do I'd personally pay for the next model up.

      If boys like destruction, battle bots will get them into it. If girls aren't into destruction it doesn't matter how much money you throw at getting girls into the battle bot arena, the only ones that are going to bite are the ones that would have been interested in it anyway.

      And for the love of god it doesn't need to be Pink. Stop Pinkwashing.

    23. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      " Because boys tend to be more willing to go against peer pressure"

      Facing less pressure does not mean that they are more willing to face pressure.

    24. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Beautiful reply!

      I really liked your approach on how to sell it to girls too. I'm going to try to figure out how to sell my daughter on learning a bit more. She's unfortunately part of the current 12 year old generation of thinking that she knows about technology because she can use it. I'm working on getting her interested in how it ticks, unfortunately as the parent that doesn't have her most of the time it's difficult to work into a couple of days at a time.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    25. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody cares.

    26. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you want to deny equal opportunities to boys?

      Why would my daughter qualify for something but my son not qualify for it? If it was reversed you would scream sexism, and you know it.

    27. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by narcc · · Score: 1

      what they need is their non-tech inclined peers to get over the BS social cliches.

      Agreed. If only there was some technology program exclusively for girls. That might help eliminate some of that social stigma...

    28. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by narcc · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure about that.

      He had a two-parent household and access to computers and resources at the local community college.

      There are an awful lot of people who aren't so advantaged.

    29. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem is that men who are shit and lazy get shitcanned. Women who are shit and lazy get to keep their job because of affirmative action.

      There is this extreme and growing social pressure to help women, to give them more support and men deserve neither. Men are expected to do on their own or be replaced. Women are treated as special, something to be protected and nurtured even when they don't deserve it. Just look at what we are discussing. Boys and CS? Who cares. Girls and CS? Shower them with help and opportunities.

    30. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The simply explanation is that you are an exception to the rule. Being poor or from a difficult background doesn't mean you can't succeed, but not everyone who can become a good programmer is as interested or determined as you at a young age. Hence, assistance programmes only for girls. Men are disposable.

    31. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      Mom was a schizophrenic, my dad an alcoholic.

      Whatever you do, DON"T avail youself of any charity for mental illness or substance abuse.

      Afterall, the mere existence of those charities/organizations is reverse discrimination against people who don't have schizophrenia or alcoholism!

    32. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a white man is shit at his job and lazy, he's shit and lazy.

      Clarified that for you.

    33. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Anecdotally:

      My two Ex-Wives were not interested in computers or other more geeky type hobbies like gaming and not interested in other hobbies I'm interested in, like motorcycles and music.

      My girlfriend is a DBA (OJT'd into it), I'm a Sr Unix admin (self taught). She has her Master's (MBA), I'm a high school graduate. She's really eating up board games and role playing, I have the games and run the RPG she's playing in. She would rather be on the back of my motorcycle than on her own but loves to ride with me. She encourages my guitar playing and tells me when some practice thing I'm working on appeals to her.

      I think I'm pretty lucky, finally :)

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    34. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone choosing geeky things at a young age experiences large amounts of pressure.

    35. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      " boys tend to be more willing to go against peer pressure and do what interests them." LMOL - yeah that explains all those nerd with dates at the prom and giving football players swirlies....

      You proved his point - even when attacked for their choices, boys still do whatever they are interested in.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    36. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP grew up with parents suffering mental illness and alcoholism. You did not. Check your privilege and stop trying to explain to OP how good he had it.

    37. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, since you're okay with charities to help sufferers of mental disease, you're okay with 'whites/boys only?' Since, you know, they're exactly the same.

    38. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you get it? You can be the son of two crack addicted parents, staying in a shed with them with no running water or electricity and become interested in programming from the times you're in the library to be in a place where there isn't water leaking on your head and your parents screaming but you're still more privileged than Willow Smith because you're a white guy. This is how it works. Having to wash your clothes in the sink in a bathroom in a gas station still means your life is easy mode, because you're white and male.

    39. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Score!

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    40. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Good for you. I suspect that you're an outlier here, and therefore not inherently qualified to discuss the success of the less determined. If it takes greater determination for a boy to learn about computers than a girl would need, that's a problem.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    41. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A lack of discrimination at a late stage doesn't prove there wasn't discrimination at earlier stages.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    42. Re:Well they're getting closer to the truth by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      She's unfortunately part of the current 12 year old generation of thinking that she knows about technology because she can use it.

      What ever she does I guarantee there's something that's boring and repetitive that she hates to do. Upload photos to Facebook on 'throw back thursday'? Write a python script to parse all of your images randomly select 5 and upload them. She can maintain the same things that she's doing now but will have more free time and at the end of the day.

      Name something your daughter is interested in or does and I can probably think of something to do.

  6. yeah there's no politics involved by Virtucon · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Clinton Global Initiative is all you need to know. Why not 4 years ago, 6 or even 10? We're in an election cycle, this is now just a campaign talking point and to deflect criticism away from deleting e-mails, taking money from foreign governments and overall credibility. "Hey look we do something good."

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:yeah there's no politics involved by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Yeah because it has nothing to do with Mark Zuckerberg and the hour of code campaign. Try following the news sometime potsy.

    2. Re:yeah there's no politics involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what about Benghazi, Solyndra and "57 states"!!?

    3. Re:yeah there's no politics involved by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with Mark Facetard, it has everything to do with self promotion in an election year. "Oh lookie over here! Don't look at those 30,000 violations of federal law, receiving money from foreign governments while working for the American people? No, lookie here!"

      I wish these 10,000 girls all the luck in the world.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  7. It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Girls generally get good grades in school, except the trashy ones...those girls have likely made their career choice.

    Does it ever dawn on the feminist crowd that all females are not total bitches and have no interest in engineering trades?

    1. Re:It never dawns on women... by prefec2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is only true for Western countries. In many other cultures women are dominant in engineering and computer science. For example, Iran (70 percent), Philippines (52 percent), Thailand (51 percent) and Kazakhstan (50 percent).

      See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... http://www.unescobkk.org/educa...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Therefore, it is a cultural thing and I doubt that it will improve any time soon. First, most programs address people at the end or after school. Then it is too late. If you want to "fix" it, you should start changing education in nursery and primary school. And yes, you should stop offering them dolls and fostering stupid girlie behavior, like "oh cool shopping".

      BTW: In eastern European countries the percentage of women in STEM was higher during "communism", as they do not indulge in such "being a toy"-stuff. however, since the end of "communism" this changed, due to new/old role models emerging.

    2. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am from one of the places you have mentioned, not sure if you are presenting these statistics like that on purpose or you just read it like that..

      Most STEM women graduates there work in academy, admin or training, and most engineering companies/businesses work is dominated by men.

    3. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly enough all of the countries (and governments that you mention) are in places that historically have not offered a lot of opportunity to women. Cited elsewhere in this thread was the fact that during the 60s enrollment of women in computer science was quite high, and was coincidentally also a time that women were not traditionally considered for career employment. Could it honestly be possible that women seek computer science because it is one of a few options for a meaningful career that they have?

      PS. posting anon bc I modded elsewhere in the thread.

    4. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In many other cultures women are dominant in engineering and computer science. For example, Iran (70 percent), Philippines (52 percent), Thailand (51 percent) and Kazakhstan (50 percent).

      I wonder how much of this is due to inferior social/financial support systems in those countries. In most developed countries, a woman who has a child will be supported by the state (or by the child's father, under threat of force from the state). In less-developed countries like the ones you listed, there isn't that same guaranteed source of income, so there's more incentive for a woman to pursue a professional, high-paying career.

    5. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is really just about people having the choice. When you force people to become indispensable or they will be dispensed, every single person will try his very best to become indispensable. When you make more jobs give you the basic necessities, people will chose to do the ones they want, not the ones that will keep them save or guarantee they will have food because they all do.

      Otherwise, why do we see so few males in nursing and the like? If the culture is the reason for inequality, then when would a male, who would be in the advantageous position given the culture, not feel just as free to pick nursing as engineering. Its just because they like engineering more than nursing. And a big number of women chose nursing over engineering because they like it more and with the culture we have right now, it is completely acceptable that they chose such a job over something else. The inequality in jobs for genders are there because of the equality that most jobs have. While some give you a bit more, they all give you the basic necessities you need.

      A program like this is basically a fuck you to poor boys. Its not equal opportunity, it is favoring one part of a group that is at a disadvantage. Not trying to help a group at a disadvantage over those at an advantage.

    6. Re:It never dawns on women... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Therefore, it is a cultural thing and I doubt that it will improve any time soon.

      We already have a flood of bad programmers, why do we want more? Your "facts" only show that there is more demand or more monetary desire for women in STEM in those other countries. More modern research is showing that the percentage of women who actually WANT to do STEM is actually very close to what the USA has for current percentages. It's also a note of interest that the percentage of women who want to do STEM is identical in all countries and cultures.

      The initial research was done by a collaboration of some very prestigious universities, but they did say that while they feel confident in their findings, more research from different angles must be done on the subject.

      We don't need more STEM, we need more good STEM. Don't push women into the fields, just don't hold them back. While we at it, lets get rid of this surplus of idiots.

    7. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only true for Western countries. In many other cultures women are dominant in engineering and computer science. For example, Iran (70 percent), Philippines (52 percent), Thailand (51 percent) and Kazakhstan (50 percent).

      Most of these are cultures that don't want women interacting with others, don't want them outside interacting with others, and don't want them doing xyz, and they have a severe lack of options. There may be things they're more interested in, yet it isn't acceptable for them. Yes, the cultural side is there, but primarily by discouraging men, and the women go "Oh, here is something I could do that..." Back in the day, "computers" was a term for a room of women doing calculations. It was a routine job they did without having to be put on the front lines, but was it a passion and did they have many other options?

      Obviously some women will have it as a passion, but it seems very, very weird to be telling women they should have it, let alone have to.

    8. Re: It never dawns on women... by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      You are right in that that pushing people into STEM does not help them, the companies they work for, and us. Already are many students studying CS for the wrong reasons. They do not like programming and they do not like working intensely on problems.

    9. Re:It never dawns on women... by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      This is only true for Western countries. In many other cultures women are dominant in engineering and computer science. For example, Iran (70 percent), Philippines (52 percent), Thailand (51 percent) and Kazakhstan (50 percent).

      See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... http://www.unescobkk.org/educa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Therefore, it is a cultural thing

      What leads you to believe that? All you've done is display a link between "countries with fewer rights for women" and "women in STEM/CS". This would lead a rational person to believe that when women have more options they exercise them (like in the west). When they have fewer options they are stuck with STEM/CS.

      and I doubt that it will improve any time soon. First, most programs address people at the end or after school. Then it is too late. If you want to "fix" it, you should start changing education in nursery and primary school. And yes, you should stop offering them dolls and fostering stupid girlie behavior, like "oh cool shopping".

      And you know for sure that this does not happen in those countries you listed? As far as I know of those cultures, they treat women much much more different than they do men, including toys and such.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    10. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's NOT a cultural thing, it's a NEEDS thing. The higher the quality of life and gender egalitarian the country is, the more the stereotypically the sex divide becomes. It regurgitate what nature's been telling us about sexual dimorphism for thousands upon thousands of years. It's truly no wonder every country you listed is a complete shithole.

    11. Re:It never dawns on women... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So do we need to start a boys in CS in Iran?

    12. Re:It never dawns on women... by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      What leads you to believe that? All you've done is display a link between "countries with fewer rights for women" and "women in STEM/CS". This would lead a rational person to believe that when women have more options they exercise them (like in the west). When they have fewer options they are stuck with STEM/CS.

      First, not all listed countries induce restrictions on women. Second, the restrictions do not apply in education. Albeit in Iran Theology is off limits in Iran, they can study almost everything if they want to. Iran is not Saudi Arabia. In addition I had the pleasure to talk to different Iranian Women on a conference in Germany which point out different causes for the differences in selecting topic. In their culture, engineering is not considered a man thing. While I find that weird, it is part of their culture. And this is very different to our culture.

      And you know for sure that this does not happen in those countries you listed? As far as I know of those cultures, they treat women much much more different than they do men, including toys and such.

      Yes they do, however, in another different than ours. anyway, to change the reputation of STEM topics (without Biology and Pharmacy which are already a women dominated fields) in the public and show our daughters that STEM can be fun for them.

    13. Re:It never dawns on women... by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Eh a few points - first I couldn't find any source for that 70% figure in Iran in your linked articles. Second if you're using any of those countries as your model for gender equality you've clearly never lived there and know very little about them. Thirdly nobody's breaking down Kazakhistan's door looking for quality engineers.

      As for the communist thing, I recall reading an interview done with women working on a construction site in somewhere like Cambodia - they were well able for the work but complained constantly that they'd much rather be at home doing the cooking and cleaning. Likewise in Russia, women have no time for feminist screeds - they're quite happy staying at home looking after the kids. In my opinion women are quite capable of successful work in IT, engineering, the sciences and what have you, they mostly just don't want to, regardless of the culture.

      Which brings us right around to the elephant in the room, the fact that feminism has no reproductive strategy. The only way that feminism could result in a semi functional society would be for all children to be collectively raised in private or public facilities. Such an environment is very unlikely to have a positive outcome for those children but regardless - their parents likewise usually don't like the idea and never will.

      So once again, we find feminism coming up against reality and losing badly.

    14. Re:It never dawns on women... by prefec2 · · Score: 1

      My post was not about gender equality. First, because the initial article is on a program which is intended to increase the number of women in programming. Second, I really do not know what this gender equality thing is. We have regulations stating that all humans have the same rights. So the term is redundant, as human equality includes gender equality. However, it is used regularly and everyone has a different opinion what it actually comprises. So no I do not post on that.

      The 70% of women in Iran is stated in "Under the Islamic Republic of Iran" fourth paragraph. But beside that, I had some interesting talks with Iranian computer scientists on a conference in March in Germany. They explained that with a factoid that in Iran engineering and CS are not a guys thing. They rather study other topics including theology. They are, as those two stated, more interested in their look than in technical gadgets.

      For western ears that sounds totally odd. However, it allows the conclusion that STEM interests are not a biological determined thing and are induced by culture. Therefore, if you want to change it you have to look at these cultures and how that came into existence. Then you can come up with a plan that works.

      On a side note: I do not think that it is necessary to lure women into STEM. While industry believes that all these women are potential programmers, they would not be very good ones if they are not interested in the topic. What they do not understand that a potential programmer is not the same thing as a real programmer. It is like being an athlete. We are all potential athletes, however, most of us suck in that field.

      In short: More women in STEM by luring them in will not result in more women and more capable programmers in the field.

    15. Re:It never dawns on women... by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      What leads you to believe that? All you've done is display a link between "countries with fewer rights for women" and "women in STEM/CS". This would lead a rational person to believe that when women have more options they exercise them (like in the west). When they have fewer options they are stuck with STEM/CS.

      First, not all listed countries induce restrictions on women.

      One doesn't. The others do. You've simply displayed a link between lack of womens rights and their propensity for CS. Well Done!

      Second, the restrictions do not apply in education.

      There's no restrictions in the west either.

      Albeit in Iran Theology is off limits in Iran, they can study almost everything if they want to.

      Just like the west.

      And you know for sure that this does not happen in those countries you listed? As far as I know of those cultures, they treat women much much more different than they do men, including toys and such.

      Yes they do, however, in another different than ours.

      Their young girls have fewer choices than western young girls. Western girls have many more choices, and are *encouraged* from birth to believe that they can do anything they want to, so they go ahead and do whatever they want to. "Follow your heart" is a western expression for kids, not a middle eastern one.

      anyway, to change the reputation of STEM topics (without Biology and Pharmacy which are already a women dominated fields) in the public and show our daughters that STEM can be fun for them.

      My point still stands: When young girls (like in the west) are told they can do whatever they want to they avoid CS like the plague. When they are not given a choice they can be found in CS. Did your Iranian friends forget to tell you that they didn't get to choose their major; that their parents did? Or is that a fact you conveniently "forgot"?

      FWIW, I'm from a culture closely related to the eastern and middle-eastern ones, and the way it normally goes is that the parents choose on their childs behalf, for everything from spouse to college major. Next time you meet with your friends ask them about it - I very much doubt a culture with arranged marriages does not have parents arranging the majors too.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    16. Re:It never dawns on women... by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Second, I really do not know what this gender equality thing is. We have regulations stating that all humans have the same rights. So the term is redundant, as human equality includes gender equality.

      Equality of outcome or opportunity? Because one is commusm and the other is rational.

      They explained that with a factoid that in Iran engineering and CS are not a guys thing. They rather study other topics including theology. They are, as those two stated, more interested in their look than in technical gadgets.

      I'm not especially familiar with the engineering and IT environment in Iran, and I seriously doubt you are either, so before leaping to conclusions I suggest that a closer look into things like Iranian IT and engineering job security and career tracks might be helpful. Let's not take a backward Islamic theocracy and try to compare it academically with civilised western democracies, apples to apples and all that.

      However, it allows the conclusion that STEM interests are not a biological determined thing and are induced by culture. Therefore, if you want to change it you have to look at these cultures and how that came into existence. Then you can come up with a plan that works.

      More importantly, a plan that women find appealing, and good luck with that.

      More women in STEM by luring them in will not result in more women and more capable programmers in the field.

      And yet you just got done saying you can socially engineer women into going into STEM fields.

  8. Then they can be pushed out by H1Bs too! by cornicefire · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    But hey, look at the bright side. Maybe the low-income girls will accept a low enough pay that they'll be able to undercut the H1Bs brought in by Silicon Valley. Go America!

  9. Why did you view the comments? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hi, gentle reader.

    You saw the summary on Slashdot's front page. You knew what the comments would be. Why did you go ahead anyway and click through?

    Did you expect an adult discussion of gender issues on Slashdot? Did you expect an interesting back and forth discussion about whether this will help with various issues to do with women in tech, or if other issues need to be resolved that are of more import, or anything like that?

    If so, did you miss the dozen or so other articles in the last year that dealt with similar articles, where the comments section was flooded by knuckleheads from /r/KotakuInAction? Where almost every comment that tried to discuss sexism was modded down out of view, and every comment disclaiming sexism exists or demanding Slashdot ban the subject from their front page modded up.

    If ever there was a sign we need a different approach to Slashdot moderation, it would be this. I just don't know what that approach is. Slashdot's broteam is toxic, too effective at shouting down voices who want to discuss serious issues. How to deal with that in a way that doesn't have equally bad side effects is a discussion we need to have.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    1. Re:Why did you view the comments? by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      You sound mad. This pleases me.

      Go team broteam! *fist bumb*

    2. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever see Bill Murray's flick Groundhog Day? The alarm clock radio goes off playing some corny old Sonny and Cher song, the hero gives it a whack and manages to shut it off after the second try. He stumbles into the bathroom, later returns to the bedroom and logs onto Slashdot, where he notices a Theodp article about girls, STEM, and corporate/government sponorship.

      The rest is as you mentioned.

    3. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We need to be able to mod STORIES down. That way, crap like this wouldn't appear on the front page.

      I would actually create an account if we could mod stories.

    4. Re:Why did you view the comments? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Go team broteam! *fist bumb*

      Speaking as a Brit, that typo could have come out a lot worse.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    5. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh right, the age-old gambit of "let's moderate dissent away". It goes like this: suggest that a forum, community, whatever, should have moderators following either a rigidly-enforced set of rules so that it can be played like a chessboard, or alternatively moderators with no transparency, accountability, or rules -- so that the care-bear language police can set theirs up to crush dissent.

      We'd much rather have this free exchange of opinions. If you don't like it, gently fuck off.

    6. Re:Why did you view the comments? by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Well, the final 'b' is silent.

      Eeeeeww!

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    7. Re: Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Narcissist's tend to like to whine when things don't go their way. Some even go so far to write about it whining to others about how wrong the others are.

      You know these stories will be modded down, yet you take the time to whine about the same. See any similarities? Narcissist's won't.

    8. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If ever there was a sign we need a different approach to Slashdot moderation, it would be this. I just don't know what that approach is.

      This is why the USA has a bicameral legislature. The lower chamber provides the "voice of the people", while the upper chamber provides adult supervision well-grounded in history and global politics. It still sort of works, since Senators have six-year terms, so two-thirds of them won't be standing for reelection within the next cycle.

      The drafters of the Constitution also came up with the electoral college, to provide a means for overriding an inflamed presidential vote for the likes of Michele Bachmann or Donald Trump. The override has been largely legislated away in most states, though.

      Here, we have the techie equivalent of the 2012 Tea Party (which dominated the US House of Representatives) on issues of immigration, gender, and copyright.

    9. Re:Why did you view the comments? by One+With+Whisp · · Score: 2

      If so, did you miss the dozen or so other articles in the last year that dealt with similar articles, where the comments section was flooded by knuckleheads from /r/KotakuInAction?

      What? These aren't "knuckleheads from /r/KotakuInAction" as you claim, these are the actual staple slashdot commenters.

      Where almost every comment that tried to discuss sexism

      Your kind have shown repeatedly that there is nothing to discuss, since you fail to bring up anything relating to sexism. Instead you choose to bring up irrelevant garbage and then redefine the word sexism to include such garbage. And of course, when people see your shit for what it is and mod your ass down, what do you do? You whine about the patriarchy, and other such SJW-style nonsense. Nobody here is buying it, go whine elsewhere.

    10. Re:Why did you view the comments? by TWX · · Score: 1

      That doesn't work so well for Reddit.

      The average person is stupid. What one needs is an intelligent editorial committee. Slashdot's quality in that regard is slipping.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    11. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is, women do this in moderation, and my uncle told me,“ homophobic’ re not going to take on sociopathic traits, put girls on an emotional roller coaster of abuse, and Adriana Lima? After all, how do we do it because it’ t blame an invisible patriarchy or men in general. She will still think that this practice was necessary for a purpose after all: getting what one wants. But serious, cutting questions need to change room attendant. In the retail environment, well, congrats to you. The children have friends to play the clown mask, I don“ I believe in forgiveness and redemption, I think it was a family friend for period of time.

    12. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you. I'm fed up with the same "this is not meritocracy!" drivel that always floods these topics nowadays.

      I'm sad that you've gotten 2 troll mods already. Your post didn't deserve them.

      (I modded you up. Posting anonymous because of that.)

    13. Re:Why did you view the comments? by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      I wish I had mod points! +1 Brilliant!
       
      I am so often ashamed of team bro
       
      I am completely for any opportunity or advantage that girls and women have access to.

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    14. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The average person is stupid

      Wouldn't that drive the average back down so the average person is back to average? Do you need to recalculate after changing data? :)

    15. Re:Why did you view the comments? by squiggleslash · · Score: 2

      What? These aren't "knuckleheads from /r/KotakuInAction" as you claim, these are the actual staple slashdot commenters.

      No, most of them aren't. Most are ACs, and the vast majority have recent Slashdot IDs.

      Your kind have shown repeatedly that there is nothing to discuss

      "Your kind"?

      We can't have an adult discussion here because you knuckleheads insist on shitflooding every single article about diversity with whines about how outraged you are Slashdot is even covering the topic.

      And yeah, some, like you, live in denial, absolutely convinced that any woman complaining about harassment and death threats on the 'net is somehow part of some kind of weird conspiracy to cut your balls off and steal your vidja.

      Me, I'd like it if we could discuss it. You probably should READ the comments (you don't, except for the ones that agree with you, obviously), but if you're not prepared to do that, go somewhere else. There's no reason to keep shitposting and abusing moderation to silence those who want to discuss it.

      What harm does it do to you, seriously, that we discuss the topic?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    16. Re:Why did you view the comments? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Oh right, the age-old gambit of "let's moderate dissent away"

      No, I was describing the age-old gambit of "shout down people we don't want people to listen to", and asking how it can solved.

      Dissent? No. We're not having a discussion on Slashdot here about whether this will help women, or help the tech industry. We're just having the usual suspects demanding Slashdot ban discussion of the topic, together with some weird posts complaining about discrimination against men. Plus the usual stupid rants about "SJWs" (ie anyone whose views on women is to the left of Saudi Arabia's.)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    17. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can't have an adult discussion here because you knuckleheads insist on shitflooding every single article about diversity with whines about how outraged you are Slashdot is even covering the topic.

      I must remind you, like I did yesterday in the other article, that the one who have started this thread, focusing on these "knuckleheads", is you.

      Me, I'd like it if we could discuss it. You probably should READ the comments

      Don't know about him, but I did read, and again, comments like your OP contained very little to none about serious gender issues. Just a whole lot of vitriol against "knuckleheads".

      If all those people "go away" like you want them to, you still won't get your adult conversation, as your post will still be full of vitriol on knuckleheads.

    18. Re:Why did you view the comments? by russotto · · Score: 1

      You saw the summary on Slashdot's front page. You knew what the comments would be. Why did you go ahead anyway and click through?

      Lulz.

      Did you expect an adult discussion of gender issues on Slashdot? Did you expect an interesting back and forth discussion about whether this will help with various issues to do with women in tech, or if other issues need to be resolved that are of more import, or anything like that?

      I wasn't born yesterday.

      If so, did you miss the dozen or so other articles in the last year that dealt with similar articles, where the comments section was flooded by knuckleheads from /r/KotakuInAction? Where almost every comment that tried to discuss sexism was modded down out of view, and every comment disclaiming sexism exists or demanding Slashdot ban the subject from their front page modded up.

      I'm on KiA (but I've been on slashdot longer than there's been a reddit). I find that bunch a hell of a lot more reasonable than your bunch. If you've lurked KiA, you've seen (though you likely won't acknowledge) that when someone posts something over the top they get told off for it, even if that means defending people most KiAers don't like.

      I wish we could have an adult discussion of gender issues in tech, if not here than somewhere. But we cannot, because your side has already decided the answers and will shout down anyone who disputes them. You throw poo about "brogrammers" and "toxic masculinity". You claim atrocities and if other people (men or women) say they've never seen such, you make the unfalsifiable claim they happen constantly behind their back. You alternate between claiming men and women are the same (and therefore there should be 50% representation in tech) and that they are different and need to be treated differently. You insist that certain feminist views be accepted as axioms without or in spite of evidence. And if people insist on arguing against your point of view you call them horrible misogynists and claim they personally are part of the problem.

      If ever there was a sign we need a different approach to Slashdot moderation, it would be this. I just don't know what that approach is. Slashdot's broteam is toxic, too effective at shouting down voices who want to discuss serious issues. How to deal with that in a way that doesn't have equally bad side effects is a discussion we need to have.

      Slashdot's approach to moderation simply prevents your side from effectively censoring discussion through sock-puppeting as you would at a site where everyone gets a vote. I read at -1, and I'm not seeing a lot of stuff from your side downmodded to oblivion. You're certainly a minority voice here, but that's not the same thing. I suspect it's because Slashdot has an older demographic, so when you try the "Geeky white males had it easy and are a bunch of bros" line, it just rings false. We grew up when being interested in computers carried a stigma, and everyone understood that a "bro" was pretty much the opposite of a "nerd".

    19. Re:Why did you view the comments? by One+With+Whisp · · Score: 0

      We can't have an adult discussion here because you knuckleheads [...]

      What? I'm completely unrelated to /r/KotakuInGaming, I don't even browse reddit because, in my opinion, the site is defective by design. The developers have intentionally constructed the system to stifle all discussion and debate.

      And yeah, some, like you, live in denial, absolutely convinced that any woman complaining about harassment and death threats on the 'net is somehow part of some kind of weird conspiracy to cut your balls off and steal your vidja.

      Death threats? Harassment? What the fuck are you talking about? I never said anything about this, nor does the article. Are you really that desperate to play the victim game? Regardless, death threats and harassment are a normal part of online interaction. It comes with the playing field, if you don't like it, you can simply get the fuck out.

    20. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you expect an adult discussion of gender issues on Slashdot?

      Why don't you go ahead a start one? Naw, it's much easier to smugly insult everybody who disagrees with you, and then pat yourself on the back for being such an enlightened 'adult'.

      What a git.

    21. Re:Why did you view the comments? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      (Large wall of text comprising of quoting me and then adding "LULZ" or some other generic non-contributory comment removed. But you're not shitposting are you.)

      I wish we could have an adult discussion of gender issues in tech, if not here than somewhere. But we cannot, because your side has already decided the answers and will shout down anyone who disputes them.

      No, no, we haven't. Even if we had, what possible point is there in shouting down all discussion of gender in tech, of demanding Slashdot ban discussions of it?

      But we cannot, because your side has already decided the answers and will shout down anyone who disputes them. You throw poo about "brogrammers" and "toxic masculinity".

      Nope, I don't. Not to people who want to seriously discuss the issues. I've called (as I did above) groups who deliberately shitpost and demand Slashdot ban articles on sexism names, but, why would those people be deserving of respect?

      And something tells me that the very fact you'd use the words "toxic masculinity" as something that apparently I (who has never used that term) are using the shutdown debate means you've heard some third hand version of what it means, but have actually no idea what it means.

      Not that I necessarily am unsympathetic. To tell the truth, a lot of the jargon used by academic feminists, from TM to privilege and even to "sexism" (which is used in a slightly different way to how most of us use it) is confusing, awkward, and frequently likely to be misinterpreted. But at the same time, the ideas they're referring to need labels. It's just a shame someone takes, say "TM", thinks it means men are toxic, and then promptly shits all over a discussion trying to deal with under-representation of women in the workforce where the term hasn't even been used because "TM" was somehow an insult to them, and it must have been made by "Feminazis", and "Feminazis" want women to have better opportunities, and therefore you an enemy of women having better opportunities.

      Funny how that works. Almost like the jackass who used that term in front of you (because, let's be honest, you didn't hear it from Anita Sarkeesian or, for that matter, Joss Whedon: you heard it from another fellow /r/KIAer and you just took as read their interpretation was the right one) actually wanted you to shit all over posts about women being given better opportunities.

      You claim atrocities and if other people (men or women) say they've never seen such, you make the unfalsifiable claim they happen constantly behind their back. You alternate between claiming men and women are the same (and therefore there should be 50% representation in tech) and that they are different and need to be treated differently. You insist that certain feminist views be accepted as axioms without or in spite of evidence. And if people insist on arguing against your point of view you call them horrible misogynists and claim they personally are part of the problem.

      I honestly don't know what you're talking about. It sounds like some dumbass comments suggesting the massive harassment campaigns against women in tech aren't happening, despite being rather obviously visible. And you're putting other words into my mouth, which again sound less like even something those awful, awful, SJWs, say, and more like what people in /r/KIA say SJWs say. Men and women the same? 50% representation? Views accepted without question?

      Do you realize what /r/KIA is doing to your brain? It's fucking you up man. It's not just making you look like a misogynist dick who gets literally everything wrong about the "other side", but it's actually moving you closer to being one.

      Slashdot's approach to moderation simply prevents your side from effectively censoring discussion through sock-puppeting as you would at a si

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    22. Re:Why did you view the comments? by russotto · · Score: 1

      No, no, we haven't. Even if we had, what possible point is there in shouting down all discussion of gender in tech, of demanding Slashdot ban discussions of it?

      Nobody's shouting anything down here. Some people are tired of the subject (perhaps largely because there's never any adult discussion, only agenda-pushing and resistance to it), hence not wanting these articles any more. Personally I'm not in that group.

      And something tells me that the very fact you'd use the words "toxic masculinity" as something that apparently I (who has never used that term) are using the shutdown debate means you've heard some third hand version of what it means, but have actually no idea what it means.

      I know the academic concept. And I know the surface definition. And I know there's a lot of equivocation between the two, what Scott Alexander calls the "motte-and-bailey" technique. Basically the term will be used derisively to attack men, and then when called on it, the feminist will retreat to the academic concept (even though it didn't make sense in context). The same goes for many of those other terms.

      To tell the truth, a lot of the jargon used by academic feminists, from TM to privilege and even to "sexism" (which is used in a slightly different way to how most of us use it) is confusing, awkward, and frequently likely to be misinterpreted.

      And there's a reason for that. The academic meanings are a cover. At least for internet feminists. The terms are used to mean exactly what they appear to mean, and when people cry foul, there's a retreat to the "academic" meanings to try to make it look like there's merely misunderstanding.

      Do you realize what /r/KIA is doing to your brain? It's fucking you up man. It's not just making you look like a misogynist dick who gets literally everything wrong about the "other side", but it's actually moving you closer to being one.

      I said "if people insist on arguing against your point of view you call them horrible misogynists and claim they personally are part of the problem", and you couldn't resist proving my point, could you?

      No, Slashdot's approach is preventing any discussion from occurring at all. Almost every post that's modded up here is Off Topic. There is virtually no discussion of the issues raised by the program described. Viewing at -1? Not an option, because that's flooded with more crap.

      Objecting to the program's sexism is off-topic? I don't think so. And since I browse at -1, I know that's an option. Nothing about Slashdot's system prevents discussion.

    23. Re:Why did you view the comments? by One+With+Whisp · · Score: 1

      To tell the truth, a lot of the jargon used by academic feminists, from TM to privilege and even to "sexism" (which is used in a slightly different way to how most of us use it) is confusing, awkward, and frequently likely to be misinterpreted.

      Feminism uses these terms intentionally because it specializes in redefining already-existing terminology in an attempt to beat opponents in debates when at odds with truth and logic, a position that, as I'm sure you're well aware, feminism finds itself in more often than not.

      It sounds like some dumbass comments suggesting the massive harassment campaigns against women in tech aren't happening, despite being rather obviously visible.

      Yes, the terrible horrible massive harassment campaigns that nobody has been able to spot, identify, or even witness. This conspiracy is less credible than "the phone company killed kennedy".

      There is virtually no discussion of the issues raised by the program described.

      Open your eyes, bitch. The article is filled with them.

      Viewing at -1? Not an option, because that's flooded with more crap.

      That "crap" you refer to is the actual content of this site. If you can't stand it, then I direct you to return to tumblr, reddit, or whatever other hugbox you've all moved on to now.

    24. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > What? I'm completely unrelated to /r/KotakuInGaming,

      You don't have to go there to belong there.
      And without a hint of irony, you go on to prove that it is indeed your spiritual home:

      > death threats and harassment are a normal part of online interaction.

    25. Re: Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you ever stop to consider that it is your views that are radical? So far you are in favor of social engineering, censoring dissenting opinions, and actively discriminating against an already marginalized class.

      It is you who are the problem.

    26. Re:Why did you view the comments? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You forgot to mention the large number of stories about brilliant but poor male geeks fighting their way out of the sort of poverty that makes the "Four Yorkshiremen" sound like a walk in the park, and ending up rich and happy, and so anyone else could too, so what are all these women/blacks/gays compalining about?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    27. Re:Why did you view the comments? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      the terrible horrible massive harassment campaigns that nobody has been able to spot, identify, or even witness

      Have you recently woken up from a coma and so missed the shitfest that was Gamergate?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    28. Re:Why did you view the comments? by One+With+Whisp · · Score: 1

      Are you implying gamergate was a harassment campaign? I haven't seen any indication of this, aside from blithering and whining from radical feminists and their butt buddies.

    29. Re:Why did you view the comments? by jdc18 · · Score: 1

      I felt like you read my mind.

    30. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess it depends what you mean by 'adult' and 'discuss'. If you meant adult = pro feminist and discuss = 1 way sermons labeled 'conversations', then I can understand why you were disappointed. However, it's a win for those of us who prefer open discussion without censorship.

    31. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If ever there was a sign we need a different approach to Slashdot moderation, it would be this.

      Scratch a social justice warrior, find a nazi.

    32. Re:Why did you view the comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're just having the usual suspects demanding Slashdot ban discussion of the topic,

      Because most of us are sick and tired of these endless gender wars. These stories are toxic, and it's mostly down to ideologues like you who throw around insults and strawmen and generally attack everyone else here for their race or gender in an effort to make us all feel miserable about a problem which simply isn't as large as you are proclaiming.

      The tech industry is overwhelmingly welcoming and open to women. Companies bend over backwards to try to be inclusive.

      The only one throwing a temper tantrum here is the likes of yourself. You have been told, over and over and over, why people do not like these stories, why these stories are wrong, you have been given endless and repeated arguments as to why these issues are not worth the hysteria you're drumming up. Instead you insult everyone here and then bawl for more moderation and censorship in the comments sections to force your ideology on this site. Isn't it enough that the editors keep shoving this crap down our throats?

      SJWs are the new creationists. But at least the creationists just kept bring up discredited arguments. SJWs just keep screaming to be given their way. You have no arguments, just strawmen and insults.

      captcha: chastity

  10. waste of money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's have a basketball camp for midgets while we're at it.

  11. All man are created EVIL by mi · · Score: 2

    Everyone deserves equal opportunity

    Not until the misdeeds of the parochial and bigoted past are properly atoned for. Which, of course, means "never".

    The only way to argue against the obvious sexism here in the current political climate of the USA is by saying it is ineffective — appeals to fairness will not get you past the establishment raised by the educators like Bernardine Dohrn and Bill Ayers.

    It has been observed, that "marrying down" costs a woman as much as $25K per year so, instead of saying it is unfair to men, try arguing that the women will be better served by there being more educated men for them to marry...

    And hurry, because — with the ancient definition of "marriage" rapidly evolving nationwide — even that argument may become obsolete within a generation.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  12. Changing the mod system won't "fix" the zeitgeist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The moderation reflects the community whether we agree with that zeitgeist or not it is the clearest mirror of group attitude I've ever seen. Which is to say it's not always fair or right or intelligent.

    DISCLAIMER: Slashdot is not for everyone and should be taken in small doses

  13. Yeesh! Take The Math Instead! by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

    "Currently, just 25 states and the District of Columbia allow computer science to count as a math or science graduation requirement,"

    Unless the 'Computer Science' courses these students will be studying is Knuth-level algorhythms, they should take the Math classes. Learning how to 'code' is vocational education, and the math background will be of more value.

  14. All about dodging the class action lawsuit by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2

    >> Google's $50 million girls-only Made With Code initiative

    Somewhere inside Google someone made the decision that a near-future class action targeting Google about its lack of women (whatever the number is, someone will be annoyed until it's at least 50%) would cost a lot more than $50M, so there's the budget.

    1. Re:All about dodging the class action lawsuit by nbauman · · Score: 1

      >> Google's $50 million girls-only Made With Code initiative

      Somewhere inside Google someone made the decision that a near-future class action targeting Google about its lack of women (whatever the number is, someone will be annoyed until it's at least 50%) would cost a lot more than $50M, so there's the budget.

      Well, yes. In a *protected class*-discrimination lawsuit, companies are allowed to tell the jury about all the efforts they made to attract the *protected class* through help-wanted ads in publications read by *protected class*, in hiring interviews at *protected class* schools, in job fairs attended by *protected class*, etc.

      That's why you saw all those help-wanted ads for reactor core designers and electrical engineers in Ms. magazine and the Amsterdam News.

      I'm sure there are woman nuclear engineers who read Cosmopolitan, but you'll get a lot more responses to an ad in Nucleonics.

    2. Re:All about dodging the class action lawsuit by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It wasn't girls only, boys could participate as well. No sign up was required, no gender checks, anyone could participate. The site is still up, go try it for yourself.

      All they did was use girls in the images marketing the site. So either images of girls put boys off, in which case you must surely agree that images of boys would put girls off too and thus efforts like this are justified, or images of girls won't put boys off in which case there is no problem. Which is it?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  15. Why so sexist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't it be 5000 boys and 5000 girls? What about kids that don't identify as either?

  16. Great idea by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    That way they will be used to the low incomes that developers get competing with people on H1B visas

  17. fuck this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck this classist and sexist bullshit.

    1. Re:fuck this. by narcc · · Score: 1

      Classist? Because by making a program like this available to children who live in low-income households is somehow unfair to kids from wealthy families?

      I'm glad you brought up this absurdity. It's easy to see how poor children have fewer opportunities than wealthy children. We create programs like this to partially redress that imbalance. Makes sense, doesn't it? There are barriers imposed on the poor children that wealthy children don't have to overcome. Now we just need to you to see just a tiny bit further and realize that women and girls also face barriers that men and boys do not face.

    2. Re: fuck this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Equal opportunity unless you're a middle-class white male.

    3. Re:fuck this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you give me an example of a barrier that women and girls face that boys do not? Except I guess pregnancy, which in general only comes after the education has been almost complete, as in, at a time after which these type of projects don't offer a good return.

      And lets not call different interests a type of barrier.

    4. Re:fuck this. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Classist? Because by making a program like this available to children who live in low-income households is somehow unfair to kids from wealthy families?

      If you're a rabidly elitist right winger (i.e. the typical slashdot reader) then anything which threatens that elite is labelled as class warfare. It is an attempt to ironically take a Marxist term and use it against egalitarian left wingers.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  18. Disgusting Sexism, Backlash Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has gone far enough, time for a backlash - I won't employ women in the future.

    1. Re:Disgusting Sexism, Backlash Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has gone far enough, time for a backlash - I won't employ women in the future.

      But you will have the SJW crowd yelling you are oppressing women and are a misogynist. Oh wait...they already claim this about every business now even those run by women.

    2. Re:Disgusting Sexism, Backlash Time by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      This has gone far enough, time for a backlash - I won't employ women in the future.

      That's a bit weak. Shouldn't you be treatening to rape and torture to death any girl who dares to use a computer? What sort of a half-arsed bigot are you?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  19. Re:Changing the mod system won't "fix" the zeitgei by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Spoken by an anonymous troll.

  20. OK by koan · · Score: 1

    I really do not get the drive to get "girls" to code, especially from an organization that took a lot of money from the Sauds.

    What's the end game of so many coders?

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:OK by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      What's the end game of so many coders?

      Cheap coders... duh. ;)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  21. bad idea all around by drwho · · Score: 1

    We don't need a sexist training program. We don't need more computer programmers - we need better ones. Society would be better off if the money were spent for training in healthcare professions.

    1. Re:bad idea all around by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      This. Why don't we spend money encouraging people who want to learn a particular trade to learn the trade, rather than spend money on people who are not interested in a trade to learn the trade?
      I'm sorry if it is offensive to some people, but women and men are different. I'm all in favor of giving money to women who WANT to be in CS (not to the exclusion of men, though. That would be discriminatory).

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:bad idea all around by narcc · · Score: 1

      I suppose you also think we should offer food-stamps to the wealthy, because to exclude them would be discriminatory...

    3. Re:bad idea all around by tompaulco · · Score: 2

      You can't compare having a natural desire to do or not do programming to a state of being rich or poor. The poor don't WANT to be poor. However, people who have no desire to do programming do not WANT to have a desire to do programming.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    4. Re:bad idea all around by narcc · · Score: 1

      This is about opportunity. No one is forcing girls to participate if they don't have the interest. They're just eliminating a few barriers, making it easier for those girls who are interested to learn.

      What image did you have in your head? Jack-booted thugs kidnapping low-income girls and forcing them, at gun point, to do programming exercises?

    5. Re:bad idea all around by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      The poor don't WANT to be poor.

      True, but most of them also don't want to do the things necessary to NOT be poor (put off enjoying pleasures today for a better quality of life years down the line, work hard in school as a kid so that you can get scholarships and have a good career 10 years later, etc). Everyone's life is a result of the choices that they make. So while they might not want to be poor, their choices have certainly led them there. I say this as someone who grew up poor and had to work full time while taking out a shit ton of loans to get through college and grad school. I spent years working in shitty hourly jobs such as fast food and retail and I can assure you, the lifers there have no desire to put out the effort to achieve anything better - sure, they want the money / nice things of having a better job, but they don't want to put out the effort to obtain that better job.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    6. Re:bad idea all around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats fine as long as I get the same treatment they get, namely much reduced tax rates, and federal grants and subsidies. Oh whats that, your failed analogy doesn't work? Feel free to try again.

    7. Re:bad idea all around by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry if it is offensive to some people, but women and men are different.

      And people with dark skin and light skin are different. Which is trivially true, but meaningless, unless you choose to turn it into racism.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  22. Re:Yeesh! Take The Math Instead! by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Programming courses - which is what these are - follow under the business category in high school. It's not computer science. Stop pretending this is anything other than programming. It does not replace math or science - not even close. Need to drop the stupid STEM acronym and go back to Science and Engineering.

  23. 9,999 wasted classes.. by Bonzoli · · Score: 1

    Out of this 10,000 we got 1 programmer. See it works.

    1. Re:9,999 wasted classes.. by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> Out of this 10,000 we got 1 programmer.

      Not a problem. See comment about "avoiding the class action lawsuit" above.

  24. I don't have 10,000 low income girls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can I use cash instead to buy this learn-to-code program?

  25. Re:Yeesh! Take The Math Instead! by TWX · · Score: 1

    If pre-algebra, aka, 6th grade through 8th grade study counts as math for high school graduation, the basic use of logic structures for loops and control in programming may as well count too.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  26. Stop it- they're not interested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop trying to force CS on girls. I have eight computers in my house. My son and daughter both teens, have free reign with half of them. Guess who wants to edit skins on a computer for a game and who wants to watch Netflix and text their friends? Encourage kids who are interested, but stop this nonsense. Trying to make everyone a programmer is like trying to make everyone an athlete. It's not going to happen.

    1. Re:Stop it- they're not interested by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Yes, because your one son and one daughter perfectly (and conveniently) reflect the experience of all other men and women.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:Stop it- they're not interested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you miss the point. The point is that the vast majority of girls do not have a strong interest in CS skills. Rather than specifically pushing more girls into studying CS, we should push people with strong CS interests to study CS. This implies most girls will not bother because most girls do not have a strong interest in CS skills.

  27. How can we fight this ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, it is time to fight back against the feminazis and their sexist shite.

    What can we do ?

    Is there an organisation that represents us, a website that can coordinate action, politicians who will represent us ?

    1. Re:How can we fight this ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So where are the moral enforcers, and that men forced women to advocate for themselves, or were involved in some kind of education, you would expect, sales of newer sci fi and fantasy publishing especially’ s as though the world when women have a choice and then make that choice, but this time, their targets have decided that they do.

    2. Re:How can we fight this ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, Rush24/7.

  28. #EverydaySexism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Again boys are treated as second class citizens

  29. Why is it always "learn to code" by NominalLoss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing? Why is every program trying to over-saturate IT? I believe the construction industry is a boys only club as well.

    1. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >> Why is it always "learn to code"? Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing?

      Because this whole thing is about deep-pocketed companies that employ a lot of mostly male coders avoiding class action lawsuits. Attorneys aren't particularly interested in chasing down all-male but independent electrician or plumbing crews when Google or Apple are ripe for the picking.

    2. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing? Why is every program trying to over-saturate IT?

      Another reason why I got out of IT, just one attempt after another to over-saturate the industry and depress wages.

       

      I believe the construction industry is a boys only club as well.

      You don't see any calls for more female loggers, sanitation workers, sewer technicians, etc either. Mostly it's for more women in comfy white collar office jobs. And when you do see a woman in something like, say road construction, she's almost always just holding up the SLOW sign.

    3. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing? Why is every program trying to over-saturate IT?

      ...mostly because IT doesn't require a whole lot of physical labor and/or physical agility? Sure, you might have to pick up an odd server or router chassis here and there, but even that's only work for the sysadmin server monkeys, not the code monkeys.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing? Why is every program trying to over-saturate IT?

      Say, are you the same poster who advised fellow Slashdotters that plumbing was a much wiser career choice, when the TFA was about IT employment prospects?

    5. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

      "Why not learn to wire a house or install plumbing? Why is every program trying to over-saturate IT?"

      Well, if you look at some of the sponsors, and how much lobbying they do to support the reduction of salaries either by increasing supply or allowing cheaper labor, there's one answer.

      One of the problems with IT, both development and systems sides, is that is straddles the line between a trade and a profession. No one in the field wants to think they work in a trade -- they wear a collared shirt to work, work indoors in an office, etc. But honestly, the _real_ way to increase skill levels is to set up a guild system and train apprentices. Split the design and operations sides up, make design a professional engineering job, and formalize the career path on the operations side.

      Seriously, to use your example, this is how the IBEW and plumbers' unions ensure that they have people who can take over when their current workers retire and maintain a level of skill. Kids out of high school get a union apprentice position, work for a few years at reduced salary and are set up for life. They might have a much less exciting career path without huge meteoric rises in salary, but they can pay their bills and raise a family. In my opinion, that's a lot better than the feast-or-famine mentality we have now. Employers are happy because they pay apprentices less, and it could be a way to reduce the dependence on H-1B labor while growing a talent pool.

      I doubt any of this will happen until it's too late. Techies lean very Libertarian and associate unions or guilds with corruption. Hopefully enough examples of employers making life miserable for unprotected workers will change some minds before there's nothing left to save.

    6. Re:Why is it always "learn to code" by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      To some extent learning to program is more than just writing code. It's also learning to solve problems and to think in abstract terms. Eventually automation will remove all of the jobs that don't require those types of skills or make it economically unfeasible for that work to be done by humans.

  30. Cost effective by mongothesecond · · Score: 0

    If more women code the average coder will be paid less, right?

    1. Re:Cost effective by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 1

      Nope, what the average coder can do can be done cheaper overseas or through fairly simple AI algorithms backed by massive crowd-sourced data sets, something similar to methods used by Google in in Goolge Translate or in its reCaptcha systems.

  31. Re:What about WHITE people? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    Why don't these poor, hard done by 'youth of color' (LOL) LEAVE and go and live in the country of their ancestors?

    They could do one or the other, but not both. The country of their ancestors, for the last 10 or so generations is the United States.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  32. Hypocricy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Male nerds and geeks may resent peer pressure and bullying, but they'll stick to what they like.

    The peer pressure and bullying I have received as a techie from my fellow techies - as an adult from adults - leads me to believe that the industry is filled with emotionally stunted men.

    When my daughter's guidance councilor recommended that she do the pre-med requirements in college and go to medical school, I rejoiced. STEM fields are being offshored, the working conditions suck, and the profession is filled with bullies and misogynists.

    1. Re:Hypocricy by LaurenCates · · Score: 2

      Every industry is filled with emotionally stunted people.

      If you don't believe that, spend your lunch every working day this week asking your peers about their problems. At least 20% (and I'm being generous here) will be people who can't be bothered to get out of their own way to fix their problems.

      I've met sexist men, yes, but I've also met groups of women in the same environment that had a peer support group for being on the Atkins diet (which in that group turned its members miserable).

      In one office I worked in, I had one man borderline sexually harass me, and one woman openly try to turn everyone against me (I found out about this because everyone else liked me better than her).

      Point is, and I should really make this my sig: if normal people knew how to deal with problems, we wouldn't -have- problems.

      --
      Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
    2. Re:Hypocricy by russotto · · Score: 1

      You're arguing with someone who says "STEM fields are being offshored, the working conditions suck, and the profession is filled with bullies and misogynists" right after saying it's great their daughter is going to med school. There ought to be a cymbal crash there.

  33. Do transgender girls count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just curious...

  34. What about other professions? by ksheff · · Score: 4

    No push to train low income girls to become mechanics, welders, machinists, or sort of manufacturing skills?

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    1. Re:What about other professions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No push to train low income girls to become mechanics, welders, machinists, or sort of manufacturing skills?

      So you expect that training low-income girls to perform low-income jobs is somehow going to increase their income?

    2. Re:What about other professions? by Reason58 · · Score: 1

      I think you underestimate the pay rate of many trade skill jobs. As a bonus, you cannot offshore them, unlike IT.

    3. Re:What about other professions? by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      Skilled tradesmen (sorry, tradespeople) earn double or triple what unskilled service industry jobs pay. I would be a lot happier if my daughter was a machinist than if she was a barrista.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    4. Re:What about other professions? by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      Professional welders can make north of 300K in the united states.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    5. Re:What about other professions? by Pfhorrest · · Score: 2

      Maybe they CAN, but on average, they make about one-tenth of that.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    6. Re:What about other professions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conversely, no push to train low income boys to become nurses, elementary teachers, social workers, meeting/wedding planners, counselors, tax preparers, or community service managers? Every one of those fields are 70% - 90% female.

      The entire social war to push girls into computers is so clearly a money grab that it's almost ridiculous.

    7. Re:What about other professions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I am not.

      Did you forget how Google works?

      Average mechanic salary

      Average welder salary

      Average machinist salary

  35. Tangentially related: Race-based admissions by quietwalker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was listening to NPR the other day, and this story popped up: Examining Race-Based Admissions Bans On Medical Schools .

    The short version is; certain states have ruled that colleges are not allowed to consider race as part of their admissions criteria, and medical schools are noticing that black and latino graduation numbers have decreased since then.

    The intent was to focus on merit-based evaluations. Seems noble, right? We want the best doctors we can get. However, the effect appears to be to reduce the number of minority students admitted. This, of course, has people outraged, and scrambling to find ways to work around the system - like sending recruiting teams to primarily-black or latino high schools, and hoping that will increase the applicant numbers.

    What shocked me is that everyone is dancing around the race issue (and only certain races; not, for example, Indian or other asians). Everyone agrees the minority graduation numbers have dropped because individuals from a given group don't actually meet the admissions criteria. They're not qualified to be students or doctors. That apparently hundreds or thousands of people's failing grades were ignored because of their race. That prior to the no-race rule, doctors, in this case, were not necessarily the most well qualified individuals for the job. In fact, some significant percentage of them should not have been allowed in.

    This trend isn't new either. When I was a lifeguard back in the 90's, the requirements changed from being able to swim a specific distance in a certain time, to removing many of these fitness requirements altogether. The reason? It was apparently unfairly eliminating people with poor physical ability or handicaps. The new focus was to do all the lifeguarding from the side of the pool: hooks, ropes, and life preservers.

    Heck, just last month there was a minor kerfuffle about fire departments force- and expedited-promotions of minorities over whites.

    I can't help but see this girls-only computer science focus being another of these sorts of ill-considered plans, where capability takes a back seat to minority inclusion and political correctness. Sure, it's not as vital as our doctors, firemen, and lifeguards, but it's the same line of thought. In our rush to be politically correct and all inclusive, we mistake equality for equally fair, and it serves no one well except those promoting our differences.

    Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? Like Harrison Bergeron crazy? I can't be the only one, right?

    1. Re:Tangentially related: Race-based admissions by ADRA · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not hard to figure at all. People with shitty family lives in school underperform regardless of their innate abilities. Black and Latino groups are some of the poorest racial groups, so it follows that on average, they'd test worse on enterance testing (given with a grain of salt).

      Grand scheme though, 10,000 is a pretty small number given the millions of people currently in the field. Obviously the end number of individuals who make it to the professional world will be far less, but I'm glad to see there are some programs in place to help those that need the hand.

      For myself, I started out with a lower-middle family, but my Dad was lucky enough to be in a union job where they contributed to childhood post-secondary savings programs enough so that when I ended up going to post-secondary, most of my bills were covered by the program, and a few scholarships/bursaries offered through the schools / donors. If I didn't have the small amount of savings my dad had saved for me, I'd very likely be doing a quite different job (and a far worse path) than I am now.

      --
      Bye!
    2. Re:Tangentially related: Race-based admissions by nbauman · · Score: 1

      The intent was to focus on merit-based evaluations. Seems noble, right? We want the best doctors we can get. However, the effect appears to be to reduce the number of minority students admitted. This, of course, has people outraged, and scrambling to find ways to work around the system - like sending recruiting teams to primarily-black or latino high schools, and hoping that will increase the applicant numbers.

      What shocked me is that everyone is dancing around the race issue (and only certain races; not, for example, Indian or other asians).

      I know a lot of doctors, professionally and socially. There is one factor most closely associated with getting into medical school: Having a father who is a doctor. There isn't even any discrimination against daughters of doctors. Male/female ratios are now about equal.

      Children of doctors have many advantages. First, they grow up in a family where they learn about medicine and science from table-talk at dinner. They visit their fathers' offices. They have summer jobs in the field.

      Second, they have lots of money. Most doctors make $100,000-300,000 a year. They grow up in neighborhoods around wealthy professional families like themselves. They go to schools with involved parents who make sure they get good teachers and a good education. They're bound to succeed in school.

      That lots of money means they can go to medical school. Medical school costs around $50,000 a year. I know doctors whose parents just wrote a check. Middle-class parents will have a lot of trouble paying that. If college were free, as it is in most developed European countries, a lot more black students would be applying to medical school.

      Everyone agrees the minority graduation numbers have dropped because individuals from a given group don't actually meet the admissions criteria. They're not qualified to be students or doctors. That apparently hundreds or thousands of people's failing grades were ignored because of their race. That prior to the no-race rule, doctors, in this case, were not necessarily the most well qualified individuals for the job. In fact, some significant percentage of them should not have been allowed in.

      Well, I don't agree. I know black doctors who teach medical school, write textbooks and serve on professional committees. They're more qualified than most doctors. I'd trust them with my life. (Or with my eyes, in the case of an opthalmologist.) Do you want to see black doctors who are as good as the best white doctors? Look at the military doctors.

      If you were a doctor, you'd know that tests aren't always accurate. If you have a PSA of 5, that might mean you have prostate cancer or it might not. A high test score isn't the same as having a disease. That includes medical school admissions tests too. A high medical school test score isn't the same as being a good doctor either.

      A high medical school admission test score, or high high school grades and SAT scores, are especially poor at distinguishing between medical school applicants, since they all have high grades. If you have one student with a 3.8 average, and another student with a 3.9 average, that's not a meaningful difference in predicting whether he's going to be a good doctor. There are plenty of black students with 3.8 and 3.9 averages.

      Science magazine had a few special issues on minorities in science. They gave the best evidence on why there are so few and how they could be encouraged to succeed, if you want to look up the facts.

      I think quotas or preferences are an imperfect solution. The ideal solution would be to first eliminate poverty, by using what works, and the European-style social safety nets have been proven to work. That alone would produce better elementary and high school education. Second, we should provide free college, like most of the European countries do and like we used to do up to the 1970s.

      There's another issue -- social fairness.

      I used to work with an Indian engineer who told me he

    3. Re:Tangentially related: Race-based admissions by quietwalker · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where to start. I'd like to do a point-by-point, but there's no need. The issue on my part is very simple:

      People should be judged based on their own merits, not the color of their skin or their gender, not based on the socioeconomic class they're from, not by handicap or caste or because someone has a quota or a chart that shows an irregular curve they'd like to smooth out.

      What you're calling 'social fairness' is actually quite unfair to society or individuals.

      The issue with affirmative action-type policies is that it is saying, in no uncertain terms, capability is not as important as quotas. That folks who have been deemed capable should not only not be given opportunity, but that opportunity should be given to someone who has not been deemed capable. That can't be considered fair in any society - and before you complain, consider that this is exactly the policies apartheid & theocratic governments and pre-civil war US used. People judged based on their skin color, religion or other minority status, rather than their ability.

      This is not just a matter of treating people as individuals instead of a member of a group as an ethically and morally correct stance. Treating people who are not capable of a job as qualified and allowing them to occupy important positions is a danger to all of society. How that can be lost on you, I don't know. This is the very root of the problem with nepotism and cronyism!

      Perhaps this straw man scenario might help: "Your doctor isn't technically qualified to perform your gall bladder surgery, but we needed someone from a low income family on staff to round out the numbers. So ... yeah... good luck in there!"

      I don't think we're there yet with doctors, but it is already happening with police, firefighters, and other emergency personnel. How can you justify this by saying that it's acceptable or worse, preferable simply because some arbitrary binning of the population doesn't turn out equal numbers. I can't wait till someone notices there's not enough people with low intelligence being recognized as geniuses and tries to fix that. ... yes I know it's absurd, but the whole concept seems crazy to me.

    4. Re:Tangentially related: Race-based admissions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least with doctors there are supposed to be boards to pass, and I would hope that they are race-blind. Sadly, I expect they are not.

      With law schools also applying race preference, and special rules, less qualified students do graduate. However, in at least two US states, it is possible to become a full fledged attorney without ever sitting for a single bar exam. In those situations, the lowered bar for admission may result in unqualified individuals practicing law.

  36. Where does the money go? by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

    Just curious, because learning to code is simple if you have a computer. There are tons of free courses, development platforms, etc... offering MORE courses seems pointless, and misses the fact that there is plenty of access to education online.

    So... in my mind, any effort to educate the masses (of any sex) comes down to providing that access through hardware. Not tablets (geez, useless as anything but an aid through which you might view books or videos), but desktops or laptops (laptops are more useful if accompanied by a dock and extra monitor), which will provide a decent development environment, and broadband access.

    Educational guidelines, providing languages and technology tracks for students, based on a particular field of study in computer science would also be nice, as well as a central site where access to ALREADY FREE tutorials and courses can be searched and rated, as well as grouped under those lines of study. This provides assistance to everybody, not just some finite amount of students, or students of a particular sex or race. A section devoted to coding competitions (not just hosted there, but worldwide) would also go a long way to encouraging young developers.

    Once such a site is established, then work on arming students with real, physical tools to make full use of it. This is where I'd spend the rest of the money. Deciding who gets those tools is more difficult. Some sort of basic aptitude in problem-solving skills and a grasp of basic programming concepts, as well as a genuine interest in the field of study should be prerequisites.

    These things should be no-brainers, but what gets lost in all of these efforts directed at special groups is that they are battling cultures and often fail to provide a true path to success (i.e. they go for quantity over quality, only making the situation more dire for those that are good, because they have to fight the perceptions employers have of their 'group' as a whole).

    Now, if you can start turning out good quality programmers, as an organization fighting discrimination, you have to educate employers (or set an example, I'm looking at you, Google, and your "do as we say, not as we do" example). That's not a program that targets 10,000 low income girls, though. It's a program that targets employers and benefits everybody.

    Having outlined my course of action... where does the money go in these programs? I get the feeling most of it goes to a redundant effort to create online courses, which are provided to a fixed number of individuals (why? because reasons, that's why!), while a bureaucracy swallows up the money and touts its success. It seems ridiculous - because it is, but that is the logic employed by way too many of these sort of organizations. It looks good in sketchy press releases that contain virtually no real information, outside of the stated "goal". Hopefully, I'm mistaken. I'd love to see underprivileged kids (no matter the sex or race) get decent computers and given encouragement to learn computing skills (beyond playing video games), but the cynic in me knows better.

    1. Re:Where does the money go? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      My $120 delivered-to-the-door self contained raspberry pi, is vastly more powerful and capable the any of the computers I learned on. And 20x less expensive (inflation adjusted).

  37. Re:Changing the mod system won't "fix" the zeitgei by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spoken by an anonymous troll with a username.

  38. Measure of success? by Rudisaurus · · Score: 2

    It will be very interesting -- and I think they should do a follow-up (but I'm not holding my breath) -- to see how many of these girls are still coding at all in 5-years time and how many are earning a living from software development 10 years from now.

    --
    licet differant, aequabitur
  39. Forget the girl part, the approach is wrong by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

    Since the aid is targeted at one gender, all the comments so far are complaining about that aspect. However, the bigger problem is _how_ this is being done, not _to whom._

    I have about 20 years' experience in what you could loosely classify as "systems" work, so I'm not a developer. I script, I automate stuff, and do development-y things sometimes, but I don't write software. However, I do see the output of developers on a regular basis because most of my job is systems integration these days. Putting someone through a coding bootcamp is not guaranteed to generate good results. At best, you'll usually get someone who is somewhat familiar with the basics of whatever framework/ecosystem they were taught in, and the result produced may run. However, someone with enough experience and interest in the field will produce much better code in the long run. The non-bootcamp person is more likely to question why that library-based database call they made takes a minute of CPU time to run a query, whereas the bootcamp person will just order another CPU core and 48 GB of RAM with their VM.

    Remember MCSE bootcamps from the late 90s? There are now adult versions of these "teach girls to code" bootcamps being offered to much the same target audience. They promise 9 weeks or so of intense study will make you a "web developer" or an "app developer." The world doesn't need thousands more people who know a little Objective-C or Ruby on Rails...if we want the profession to succeed, we need to invest in real education.

    Trying to get kids interested in being more than content consumers is a good thing, but treating any of this as a fix to the problems we have with skills is disingenuous.

    1. Re:Forget the girl part, the approach is wrong by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I think what they are really trying to do is to get these 10k girls some equivalent to that "informal experience" the boys have... but I don't see how you can ever really come up with something similar delivered by external pressure, rather than innate desire to learn.

      Getting more girls into the coding pipeline early would seem to be more a matter of figuring out ways ad reasons that would naturally draw girls to start learning to code in the same way boys do.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  40. Phrasing by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    So I give them 10,000 low income girls, and they teach me to code?

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  41. Selective Service by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

    Why is there no outcry about the under representation of girls for Selective Service?

    https://www.sss.gov/fswho.htm

    --
    Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    1. Re:Selective Service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding.

      It is time that there should be a second lawsuit concerning that gender discrimination. "[t]he existence of the combat restrictions clearly indicates the basis for Congress' decision to exempt women from registration." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg
      The National Organization of Women was curiously uninvolved during that lawsuit. They should have filed a friend of the court brief demanding that young women also be required to sign up.

      The final outcome the first time around relied on circular logic. The Supreme Court said the military had their justification for it, and the Military said the courts said it was OK. Each looked to the other, and said "Yep!"

      The biggest justification at the time was that women were excluded from combat, and could not even fly combat flights. In 2013, the restrictions were lifted. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/23/pentagon-lifts-restrictions-on-women-in-combat
      Woman can hold combat roles, but the discriminatory law remains. It is high time that the issue get taken up again.

  42. Think of the Children, Save them FROM coding by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    If I see one more article about STEM and young women I am gonna scream like a little girl. Coding is a high-risk career. It may pay relatively well out of college, but beyond that it is NOT a better choice than any other career. Burnout, agism, offshoring, wrist injuries, long hours, investment bubbles, etc. etc. etc. make it a risky career choice. At its best it's a stepping stone into something better, but so are a lot of other fields.

  43. How can low income girls write code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While they're giving men blowjobs for meth?

    Captcha: astute

  44. Children? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think you should put children of any gender anywhere near a computer, touchscreen thing, whatever,
    unless they expressly show an interest in it.

    I'm not aware of any evidence that screen time is good for children, but let's just assume that it may well be.
    Even if it may well be, it's still taking time away from stuff that's known to definitely be good for children: playing outside,
    playing with lego, pets, etc. And of course, the most likely thing is that it's not good for them, so there's that as well...

    So that's one argument against children having computers. On top of that, I've never heard of a good argument for
    primary school-age children learning computers: everything I've ever heard in favour of it seems to be some "if they don't learn
    it when they're seven, then how will they ever?!?" panic.

    If you ask me, the best way would be:

    • Primary school: There shouldn't even be computers in there. Of course, you could still teach them on a CARDIAC
      or something. The Finnish curriculum for computers at this age is also good.
    • Secondary school: Computer literacy (spreadsheets, choosing good passwords, etc. not programming) should
      begin straight away. (compulsory)
    • Age 14 or 15, whenever the logical part of the brain is more developed: At this age, you can start programming in schools
      and have it be rigourous. (opt-in)
      By this age, you could pretty much even have C be the first language. Not the best language for writing actual programs
      at that age, but clearly the best language for computer science. You implement linked lists from scratch, so
      of course you know how they work. You learn the difference between a library call and a system call, also great. And day
      one of C is learning the difference between source code and machine code.

    I didn't start using computers until I was 11, and didn't start programming until I was about 15, and I certainly turned out alright
    in terms of technical ability.

    Children younger than that should fucking be free to go outside, poke snails in the eye, throw stones at each other, so on.
    All without constant adult supervision too. It isn't play if it's not self-directed. Having some babysitter type watching over you,
    dictating you to play "nice" is not good. When today's children grow up, it's going to be like Japan. Too much school, not enough
    childhood, and when they do get to go outside it's on a schedule.

  45. How do boys get more "informal opportunity" by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school,

    What is that supposed to mean? Both boys and girls use technology equally outside of school as far as I can tell, in terms of access to technology or use of family laptops...

    The only thing I can THINK the mean by this, by the very indirect wording, is that boys play more games. Specifically Minecraft. If that's so, say that,

    But, I'm not sure Minecraft is truly a direct bridge to programming some seem to think it is... other games are actually a hinderance to learning to program, rather than a help - anything that absorbs time is to some degree taking away time you can learn to use to program.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  46. You chose... poorly. by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    When my daughter's guidance councilor recommended that she do the pre-med requirements in college and go to medical school, I rejoiced.

    You rejoiced that she probably now will not join and industry with the greatest ability at any point in history to have someone work on what they want, with who they want. Sad.

    STEM fields are being offshored

    Only the crappy work where the quality of results do not matter; who wanted those jobs anyway?

    the working conditions suck

    In what way? I'm a consultant, I get to choose the hours I work and take as much vacation as I like. In a job I actually enjoy doing.

    The work conditions only suck if you allow them to suck. At this point anyone who is good at programming, especially a female, can write their won ticket.

    the profession is filled with bullies and misogynists.

    Let me take a guess - you are in California, right? Because I've seen that there, but pretty much no-where else. Businesses do not have time for such people as they are inherently unproductive.

    And again, you can choose who you work with so simply do not work with those people. From what I have seen over decades, they are a tiny minority of the actual people you can work with.

    By the way, if you actually had a problem with misogynists, you would be quaking in your boots at the thought of her entering the medical profession - where inherently most women are assumed to be nurses... What makes you think that field is not a thousand times worse than the tiny world of problems you know?

    What makes you think the job will suck less, not more, when the stress of being a doctor is so incredibly high? What makes you think she will not be living under the cloud of med school debt for five decades as the amount of money doctors makes declines? Are you not rejoicing at the career equivalent of being sent to the front lines in WWI?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  47. Re:What about WHITE people? by nbauman · · Score: 1

    Are you sick of Slashdot's Bolshevik bullshit yet?

    I'm a Bolshevik, you insensitive clod.

  48. Comments make me despair.... by sampson7 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Slashdot's commentaries on gender issues in tech read more like an Onion parody than reasoned discussion. The investment of new dollars in STEM education for poor girls is a wonderful thing. (Frankly, the investment of *any* dollars into education for low income kids is marvelous). The desire among so many here is to just analogize from your own experience and ask "I did it, so why can't X"? It's hard to describe the number of problems with that line of reasoning. But here are a couple of thoughts that maybe can elevate the discussion.

    First, there is massive confirmation bias going on. The fact that the system selects people that look like you (and, frankly me) to be successful is not evidence that the system is fair for everyone. Every time some successful person says, "well, I scored well on X test,and look at how successful I am," I just want to shake them until they realize that correlation (i.e.,only people scoring well on X test get into Y job) does NOT imply causation (I am successful at Y job, therefore X test is important.) Because if the entire pool of people at Y job is comprised of good test takers, then only good test takers will become successful.

    Second, the fact that you yourself (or someone you know) achieved success against overwhelming odds (whether it be poverty, lack of opportunity, gender, race, whatever) does not mean that there are no barriers to entry into STEM. How many disadvantaged people need to be turned away for every amazing overachiever before we decide that maybe the system is broken?

    Third, how can everyone on a site that claims to be nerds completely ignore the scientific evidence of how internalized gender stereotypes affect the decision of women to go into STEM? Why is it that women do worse on standardized tests when you remind them of their gender? There are really fascinating issues going on here that get completely ignored in the Slashdot group think. Frankly, I can't tell if it's just the trolls winning, or if Slashdot's blind spot really is a metaphor for what goes on in tech generally.

    1. Re:Comments make me despair.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > ignore the scientific evidence

      Social science is not a hard science, you know that right?

    2. Re:Comments make me despair.... by sampson7 · · Score: 1

      So I know this is a troll posting, but I'm going to respond anyway. There is actually lots of hard science behind this. For a start, read Claude Steele's "Whistling Vivaldi." While I agree that some of his conclusions are more of the social science variety, the tests that he (and others) developed are fascinating and clearly suggest that our current understanding of social cues and their impact on the human brain is imperfect at best.

    3. Re:Comments make me despair.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you so sexist?

    4. Re:Comments make me despair.... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      It's the trolls, specifically the Men's Rights Activists, winning. Every story gets flooded with their comments very early on, and as more reasoned voices who actually have something to say about the issue come in later they languish unmoderated. I've noticed systematic efforts by some of the MRAs to mod down people saying things they don't like, which isn't what the moderation system is for.

      Sad to say, but you will probably get more than -1 Troll mod for your perfectly reasonable, well constructed post just because it contradicts the MRA victim mentality.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Comments make me despair.... by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I've noticed systematic efforts by some of the MRAs to mod down people saying things they don't like, which isn't what the moderation system is for.

      Nope. You are getting modded down for using creationist arguments. You, personally, keep getting asked for evidence. You haven't provided any.

      Sad to say, but you will probably get more than -1 Troll mod for your perfectly reasonable, well constructed post just because it contradicts the MRA victim mentality.

      When the

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    6. Re:Comments make me despair.... by russotto · · Score: 1

      First, there is massive confirmation bias going on. The fact that the system selects people that look like you (and, frankly me) to be successful is not evidence that the system is fair for everyone.

      I'm not Asian, so strike that point.

      Second, the fact that you yourself (or someone you know) achieved success against overwhelming odds (whether it be poverty, lack of opportunity, gender, race, whatever) does not mean that there are no barriers to entry into STEM.

      Show them. Poverty I'll grant; poverty makes everything harder. Gender and race are being assumed either without evidence, or with very shaky evidence (such as raw outcome numbers).

      Third, how can everyone on a site that claims to be nerds completely ignore the scientific evidence of how internalized gender stereotypes affect the decision of women to go into STEM?

      Because the "science" is shaky as hell. The gender disparity in CS and engineering is both enormous and resilient to attempts to dispel it, yet we're supposed to believe these "internalized gender stereotypes" are the main cause despite those same stereotypes somehow not affecting chemistry or advertising and only barely affecting mathematics?

    7. Re:Comments make me despair.... by sampson7 · · Score: 1

      Because the "science" is shaky as hell. The gender disparity in CS and engineering is both enormous and resilient to attempts to dispel it, yet we're supposed to believe these "internalized gender stereotypes" are the main cause despite those same stereotypes somehow not affecting chemistry or advertising and only barely affecting mathematics?

      I'm sorry, but why do you say the science is shaky or that it barely affects mathematics? Google "stereotype threat mathematics" and there are oodles of credible scientific studies documenting the effect. From one of the articles, such as this one from NYU's Department of Psychology (http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/news/2008/1/29/Stereotype_Threat_Affects_Women_in_Highlevel_Math_Courses_Aronson_Study_Finds):

      "Considerable research over the past decade has shown that women's performances on math tests are compromised by stereotypes. In over 200 published experiments, females as young as first graders and as old as 22 have been found to perform worse on math tests whenever the testing environment cues them to think about their gender, a phenomenon named "stereotype threat" by the psychologists Claude Steele and Aronson in the mid 1990s. (Emphasis mine.)

      Where's the shaky research here? The studies showing that women behave worse on difficult math tests when they are reminded they are women prior to taking the test is both reproducible and fascinating.

      And your choice to cite mathematics as a counter-example is particularly interesting, given that 27% of math PhDs in 2012 (drawn from a pool of U.S. Citizens) were women. (http://www.ams.org/profession/data/annual-survey/2013Survey-NewDoctorates-Report.pdf). If we look at faculty positions, the data are show that women are incredibly underrepresented in professorships (the numbers are equally striking across most STEM fields (http://www.human.cornell.edu/hd/ciws/upload/SexDifferencesMathIntensiveFields.pdf):

      In the top 100 U.S. universities, only 9% to 16% of tenure-track positions in math intensive fields are occupied by women (Nelson & Brammer,2010). Among full professors, women number around or fewer
      than 10%: computer science, 10.3%; chemistry, 9.7%; economics, 8.7%; chemical engineering, 7.3%; mathematics, 7.1%; civil engineering, 7.1%; electrical engineering, 5.7%; physics, 6.1%;and mechanical engineering, 4.4%. In contrast, women are much better represented in the rest of the sciences and humanities, often making up one third or more of professorial posts.

      One of the things that bothers me about the responses I see here are that posters never grapple with the actual data. You cannot claim to be a nerd if your response to empirical studies showing that gender cues drive significant differences in testing is to simply ignore the data. I used to think like you, and then I started reading the research. When you do that, you discover that the human brain is amazing at internalizing external social cues. If scientists ignored inconvenient results, we'd never have discovered that the universe is actually accelerating. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe)

  49. It's not learn to code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's "learn a few skills that will guarantee that you will become cheap labor for the company (or companies) that sponsor the project. Also, make sure not to acquire any critical thinking capabilities that will allow you to see through that."

  50. More Girls Don't Code Because... by BinBoy · · Score: 2

    ...they don't want to. This won't change that in any significant way.

  51. Chelsea Clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That Gummi Ball face? She is supposedly not Bill's, but Webb Hubbells' offspring.

  52. One Way Pendulumn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is this such a discussion, the world Bank says 87 percent of Teachers in the United States are women, and 91% of nurses are women...
    why are we not demanding that boys get STEM health care experience or training in how to tutor?

    This is such a dumb conversation overall.

  53. Oh for fuck's sake! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    How often does it have to fail for our lawmakers and beancounters to finally get it through their skull: YOU CANNOT SIMPLY "MAKE" PROGRAMMERS!

    It's not law or BA where any monkey can get a degree by rote learning. The very last thing the industry needs is another batch of cargo cult programmers (you know the kind, the ones whose programming style follows the steps

    1 google problem
    2 copy code
    3 paste code
    4 make more or less random code changes to "adapt" code to your task.
    5 hit "compile" button
    6 if it does not compile, resume at step 4.

    We have enough of those idiots already. We don't need more. Why not dump them into some law or BA school, at least they can't turn out any worse than what we already have.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  54. Here it comes... by kuzb · · Score: 1

    ...the truly sexist programs are arriving. Before these kinds of programs just went to the people who needed them. Now they're going to the gender they think needs them.

    --
    BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
  55. They're promoting the wrong approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If "opportunity is just a click on a keyboard away" then just teach girls how to click on a keyboard!

    1. Re:They're promoting the wrong approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If "opportunity is just a click on a keyboard away" then just teach girls how to click on a keyboard!

      If I was a semi-attractive girl why would I want to become a programmer / coder / software engineer when I could earn more money and have way more fun as a fetish model choosing with whom and when I work? Women have it much easier than men in this world despite claims to the contrary. I say this as woman.

  56. Reading Comprehension, D- by westlake · · Score: 2

    What about low income boys
    Everyone deserves equal opportunity, right?

    The lead sponsor of this program is the National Center for Women & Information Technology (NCWIT) .

    Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color.

    That doesn't exclude others from sponsoring similar programs for low income boys.

    Is that a cricket I hear chirping?

    1. Re:Reading Comprehension, D- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I started a fund for underprivileged white boys, then the SJW would be ready to string me up for being sexist and racist.

    2. Re:Reading Comprehension, D- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Separate but equal didn't work for race why do you think it will work for sex?

    3. Re:Reading Comprehension, D- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell me more about the Nation Center for Men & Information Technology.

  57. Let's focus on the positive by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

    This is amazing news. We have, apparently, eliminated low income families with boys!

    Half the population down, the other half to go!

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  58. The eilites love faux-trauma don't they? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In this day in age, you can do anything you want. There is no digital divide other than what corporations want to pay for talent. They will dump 50 mil into driving down what they can't do themselves into a minimum wage job. It's already headed that way now... efforts like this only help the cause !

    I could buy a rasberry pi for every kid in my town with the tolls I pay every year, there I am my own 501c !

    If the Clintons want to help the world tell them to get out of politics for good...

  59. good by TheEmpyrean · · Score: 1

    Good, so now I can tell them what I'm doing, instead of 'Important computer stuffs' when they go and make me a sammich.

  60. Recruitment vs.Retention by braindrainbahrain · · Score: 1
    This is only one of many efforts on going to recruit girls into tech, but these efforts fail to address the retention problem. How do you keep women in the field once they start working? Perhaps Google and other major companies should provide better salary or benefits so the women don't leave. Or is it easier to make tax deductible contributions to programs such as the one in TFA?

    It's interesting that retention is one of the key problems the NCWIT calls out in their study, where they claim a 56% departure rate of women from the field, and yet they have no solutions to offer.

  61. Overlords by xdor · · Score: 1

    The network of male overlords want to eliminate all their male competition: (e.g. like schools of fish or one of the main points of Dr. Strangelove). Since the technocracy is rising, they can soon rely on robots for all the heavy lifting -- their only problem remaining is the maintaince and programming of the robots and systems they don't want to be bothered with -- so they still need some annoying technical people around. At the moment they're mostly male. :( Not good if you're trying to be the last man on earth!

    Conclusion: if the goal is for the males that are now in power (or their great-grandsons who will be in power) to be the only males on the face of the planet: then for everything to keep going they must somehow inculcate females to code and eliminate the need for all (other) males entirely.

    Low-income girls would be a nice controllable group to start with.

  62. These stories will stop... by Torodung · · Score: 1

    These stories will stop when they stop getting 200+ comments. Don't feed the trolls.

  63. I Call Manure On This Nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FTS, "Because boys get more informal opportunities for computing experience outside of school, this lack of formal computing education especially affects girls and many youth of color."

    Bullshit! There are no barriers to girls learning to develop software if they have the interest. I doubt mommy and daddy would object to GI Jane asking for a book about Python for her birthday. The World Wide Web is replete with tutorials and reference materials available for the mere cost of an Internet subscription and many homes already have Internet access. Stop with the nonsense claiming girls are not afforded the same informal opportunities as boys.

  64. Math/Science Requirements? by uncqual · · Score: 1

    Currently, just 25 states and the District of Columbia allow computer science to count as a math or science graduation requirement.

    It seems to me that "computer science" classes should not count towards either math or science High School graduation requirements (which are fairly low in most schools). Even, based on sample questions on the test, the AP "Computer Science A" test is not much "science" (or, "math"). Instead, it's more of a shop/trade class and should be entitled "Computer Programming A".

    This isn't to say we should not teach computer programming in High School - we should and there should probably be a required semester class in it. Just don't call it "science" -- that's both a misnomer and likely to actually turn off some students who would be fine technicians.

    Even many Computer "Science" BSc curricula are very light, within CSxxx classes, on anything resembling science or math, but at least they usually contain some courses that touch on such things as analysis of algorithms (I guess I could consider that science, although it strikes me as being more like math).

    Of course, that's not as bad as elementary and middle schools that have "Computer Science" classes that turn out being about how to use Excel and Word.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  65. code for 10,000 girls? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My usual rate for works out to about $85/hour... I think 10,000 girls is awfully generous.
    Where do I sign?

  66. I wish the H1b's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would take a learn to code program, as it is they only have it on their resumes...

  67. most important question goes unanswered by prgrmr · · Score: 1

    What language will these girls be learning? If it's javascript, php, python, or ruby, that's great. If it's Go or Swift, then this immediately reduces to a novel form of corporate welfare as Google and/or Apple get the government to pay for training their next generation workers

  68. More Sexism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just more sexism and pushing people to do things they may not want to do and may not be innately good at. One more step in the journey to mediocrity. The Chinese government officials are probably laughing their heads at this as instead of pushing a class of people to do something they provide equal opportunity to all hackers to hack the US government's computers and steal your souls. (and data)

  69. cheslea gave a speech? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much did her mother and (supposed) father tell her to charge for THAT?

  70. Here's how the disparity happens by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    Teenage male sees computer for first time and asks, "What can I make the magic box do?"

    Teenage female sees computer for first time and asks, "What can the magic box do FOR ME?"

    Most males are goofballs. They like to play, without a goal in mind, just for their own amusement.

    This happens to be an excellent way to learn computers.

    In contrast, most women want that immediate payoff. They don't seem to like to solve difficult puzzles without getting some kind of sensory/emotional cupcake.

    This isn't a good way to learn computers. There is nothing emotionally gratifying about them. No cupcakes.

    These traits are not universal, but as many here who've tried to teach women software development and computers have noted, there's a strong statistical tendency in this direction.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  71. How in-equal must we make the playing field... by kenh · · Score: 1

    ...before women will finally be 'equal'?

    In my experience, women typically don't want programmer jobs as much as they want the perks and benefits of the job (high salary, benefits, etc)...

    --
    Ken
  72. Learn how not to get pregnant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would be a better investment.

  73. I regularly go to a C++ user group in my area. by Tanuki64 · · Score: 1

    Meeting once a month. It is free. Roughly 10-20 members. I learned plenty there. It is very interesting since the members come from all kinds of backgrounds. The techniques an methods of C++ developers vary tremendously. What has this to do with this article? Simple, in all my years in this group I did not see a single parasite there.

    1. Re:I regularly go to a C++ user group in my area. by russotto · · Score: 1

      Simple, in all my years in this group I did not see a single parasite there.

      That's unusual, given how many C++ programmers are just lousy.

  74. An interesting and harmless experiment. by dsmatthews9379 · · Score: 1

    Sure, why not do it, just don't try to fake the results or parade the hand full of exceptions you find, in front of the media, if the results are otherwise disappointing. All it takes to learn code, for any human, is the will to learn and an computing device with access to MIT's Scratch website and the Khan Academy etc. The difficulty is in transmitting to the student a genuine appreciation of why trying to learn the subject will empower them, and the confidence to believe that they are capable of doing so. This is increasingly harder to do in a world and Internet full of eye, ear and brain candy that will keep their minds sated and distracted while otherwise leaving them intellectually malnourished.

  75. Chelsea?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...whose daughter Chelsea is the Clinton Foundation's point-person on computer science."

    I hear she's an expert on tweeting.

  76. Where do I contribute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to the boys only CS education fund?

    If they have decided to make this a gender war, bring it on.