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Protesters Block Effort To Restart Work On Controversial Hawaii Telescope
sciencehabit writes: An attempt to restart construction on what would be one of the world's largest telescopes was blocked yesterday, after state authorities escorting construction vehicles clashed with protesters blockading the road to the summit of Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano. Officers from Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR), and construction workers for the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT), turned back from the summit shortly after noon Wednesday, citing concerns for public safety after finding the road blocked by boulders. The withdrawal followed several hours of clashes with Native Hawaiian protesters blockading the road, culminating in the arrests of 11 men and women, including several protest organizers. The protesters have said the $1.4 billion TMT would desecrate sacred land.
Tired.
$Bignum will appease the gods.
They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
No doubt once someone starts talking $$$ the natives sing a different tune very quickly. We deal with this same kind of bullshit in Canada.
It isn't any more sacred than a church is. The people doing this protesting are no better than those who would block laws being passed in a country because they didn't go in line with their religion.
You know what? You throw a stick in the air around here it falls on some sacred fern.
They block the very thing that would likely keep the area underdeveloped. I think it likely they actually want more development and more money.
Shouldn't this read, Extortionists Block Effort To Restart Work On Controversial Hawaii Telescope? I would call them luddites, but's it's not about technology. This is hijacking science for profit in the name of religion and their naked greed needs exposed for the shakedown that it is.
make the best hamburger.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
It's about time for religious groups to be informed, in no uncertain terms, that religious freedom is always constrained by the rule of the law. Until recently, religion was the law. Not any more. Learn to live with it.
Then a telescope?
But ... those are sacred boulders! They shouldn't be rolling them around willy-nilly across white man's roads. If the natives aren't going to respect every last little part of Mauna Kea, then why should we?
Have gnu, will travel.
A casino instead.
The governor of Hawaii tried a compromise where they would decomission 4 old telescopes, to be able to build this new one.
It was rejected.
My suggestion is, ante up on the compromise. Promise to build the new one on the site of one of the old ones. In other words, don't create any more development on undeveloped land, which seems to be a big part of the what the protestors object to.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Note the huge error, the denial of those persons, their culture and their heritage "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture". This repeated denial of equal existence by Immigrants that stole the land but deny the people. It is not "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture", a denial that they are American, it is "sacred sites in Hawaiian American, religion and culture". They are meant to be Americans, their culture and religion are mean to be American culture and religion and not somehow be publicly defined as be foreign and those people are being foreigners. This is repeated again and again in immigrant dominated societies, the complete denial of those original inhabitants as being real citizens, they are foreigners in the own land, who hold foreign non-Immigrant cultures and beliefs and whose history is not Immigrant America, it is foreign to Immigrant America but the immigrant capitalists of course still want that land whilst they was want to denying the people and who those people are. Hawaii culture and religion is 'American' culture and religion and you are horribly racist and prejudiced if you believe any different (one element of it, of course, not the totality of American culture and religion). They are meant to be Americans and hence their culture and religion are meant to be American and not denied by immigrants as being somehow foreign to those immigrants and thus denied in a country now predominately occupied and controlled by foreign immigrants.
Hawaiians are Polynesian; ethnically, culturally, linguistically... Long before they were Ameican. No reason why they should deny that heritage in order to conform to your definition of 'American'. That word is already quite well defined.
You have an interesting viewpoint. I (too?) live in Hawai`i and I can agree with some of it.
But one thing often said here by those in favor of continuing with the TMT is that the ancient Hawaiians themselves, as master celestial navigators, would have readily embraced something that advanced scientific knowledge. Is the idea of the TMT out of line with Hawaiian spiritual practice? As I understand it, not at all.
There are already about a dozen telescopes atop the mountain. Will one more desecrate the `aina (land) so much more? I'm not qualified to answer that, but it's hard to believe that it's such a make-or-break issue.
Fundamentally, it isn't the telescope or the `aina or spiritual practices that make up the issue. Instead, it seem that it's about an indigenous people resenting the very real slights and persecutions of the past and projecting them into the present; it's also about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. But in today's Hawai`i, it is most certainly not the haole (general meaning today of Caucasian, though that's not really what the word means) who rules and runs the show.
Doesn't seem that Hawaiian culture is American culture, because American culture has no concept of sacred land outside of cemeteries and their church building of choice. American culture certainly does not have any respect for volcano gods or protesters stopping working-class people from doing what they are paid to do.
So yes, they reject American culture in favor of their own. And yes, some cultures are better than others. Nazi culture is considered bad by nearly everyone for a hyperbolic example. Whether Hawaiian culture is better or worse than American culture would be an interesting discussion.
There are over a dozen telescopes at the same site where they intend to build the TMT, some of which have been there since the late 60s. Their complaints that their "most sacred site will be desecrated" seem to be a bit late. I think there has already been an agreement to remove quite a few of the current telescopes to revert a significant portion of the site to a more natural state. There is another larger mountain on the same island, something tells me if they began building telescopes on that mountain it would suddenly become a "most sacred site". This to me smells much more like a NIMBY group using vague religious/cultural references to try to get there way.
My grandparents were forced from their lands - had to flee to america or be deported to Siberia.
Can you tell me how to regain my ancestors homes and religious areas? Can you also explain why you never cared about my ancestors, and why I should care about yours?
Thanx in advance!
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
should be fucking outlawed.
I REALLY want to go off on a rant here, but I think that sums it up pretty well. I'm fucking sick of the NIMBY crowd, I bet they don't even live in sight of the mountain.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
American culture certainly does not have any respect for... protesters stopping working-class people from doing what they are paid to do.
For a disturbingly large part of American culture, that isn't true. See: Occupy Wall Street.
That sad thing is this isn't even all native Hawaiians or even a majority. It's just a small minority of extremely loud native Hawaiians. Plenty of native Hawaiians have no problem with the observatories and actually want them built
The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
Sacred volcano where the natives threw people into.
The protesters are claiming things like pollution from the telescope will kill fish in Hilo bay. WTF? You can't even sneeze on the MK summit w/o a permit. All the facilities up there get regular inspections, and can get in trouble for even a wayward piece of trash. Construction vehicles must be parked on plastic to catch oil drips. Not so on the rest of the island. Hell, when they change the oil in cars around here, they just dump the oil on the ground. They don't give a damn. Yet they'll claim the telescopes are killing fish half way across the island? They claim it's a watershed, yet the site's chosen b/c of 300 days/year of clear skies, and how dry it is?
Hmph. Nutcases.
The telescope is the eyes on the world watching http://www.dailymotion.com/vid...
Jason Momoa A Hawaiian native, has posted a YouTube video in opposition to the TMT.
Seriously, You don't want to mess with Khal Drogo!
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
The protesters call themselves kanaka, the working class of precolonial Hawaii. Did you know that in that culture only the ali'i, the hereditary nobility, were permitted to go above the treeline on Mauna Kea? Thus by the laws of their own culture, the protesters at the 9,000 ft level, are there illegally.
Just because someone is self desecrating and a walking slab of lard does not mean they don't have a valid argument. Your logic is fallacious.
In the old days they used to be able to pay off some local leaders to make the resistance go away. Now, they're absolutely bending over backwards, funding education initiatives, etc, and the protestors won't go away. Why? Two reasons. First, they made the mistake of breaking ground on a day that drew more attention because the activists were also doing something that day. Second, with Twitter and the internet the True Believers don't need local leaders to stir them up and connect them, they can do it themselves.
Basically, they're trying to placate a bunch of implacable Luddites and Fanatics who won't be placated. Nothing but complete surrender or martyrdom will satisfy them.
It's infuriating.
Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States.
You birther's are simply not going to go away, are ya?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Considering they would have all been Japanese by now if it weren't for the evil Americans, I think they should sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, stop believing in retarded volcano gods, and maybe strum a ukelele.
Ask a grownup to explain the concept of "fait accompli" to you.
Around the world, religious nutcases impede progress. In every case that I am aware of, some individual gains power and authority by restricting the rights of others, in most cases restricting the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of their followers and the world around them. Do the Aztecs, the Maya, the Vikings or the American Indians have the power to carry on this foolishness? No, because there is no crazed leader nor is there a body of ignorant fearful followers. But in some Muslim, Jewish and certain other areas, primitive religions defy science, common sense and public safety for ideals that are tenuous at best.
Find out what person or group benefits from this charade and eliminate their incentive to protest the telescope. Debunk the mystical nonsense that they use to indoctrinate their followers. In most (all?) cases the followers are motivated by fear, and the leaders are experts at exploiting that. Empower these ignorant people to understand the real world, which may not be quite as scary as they think.
Educate everyone. No, not the job training that passes for education these days. Real education in the ways of the world, history and wisdom. Give everyone the tools for survival and excellence.
...omphaloskepsis often...
#49999999
How does it feel to fail that hard?
Let's turn every fern into a no trespassing sign. Privatize photosynthesis!
Just because someone is self desecrating and a walking slab of lard does not mean they don't have a valid argument. Your logic is fallacious.
Sure it does, when their "argument" is about how things must not be desecrated. Judging by everything you've posted on this page, I can only assume you yourself are "self desecrating and a walking slab of lard".
Your logic, and your grammar, is fuckdingoretardedbad.
Why not just smoke a peace pipe with them? Those bulldozers cause a lot of damage. Scientists need to mellow out, get high more, look at the heavens from a more spiritual point of view. Fuck the observatory. Just go camping, get back in balance with nature.
The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
The scoops are coming. The scoops are coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
You keep saying that and you keep being fucking wrong.
Crimea was part of Russia before they "invaded".
Hawaii was legally annexed.
This may sound preposterous, if you're a retard.
And scientists should mellow the shit out, fucking think what the fuck they're doing to the natural environment, just enjoy nature for what it is, look up at the skies with their natural eyes, and fuck off someplace else for their telescopes. Send em to the moon.
Scientists would love to go to the moon, build a telescope, and use it there.
So you had to walk uphill in the snow both ways to and from school, so everyone else has to too?
Exactly. Win-win. Give the scientists the funds to do it; have the Fed finance it with created money. It's in the General Welfare, why would it cause inflation?
I live in california where we always have some group of hairy drugged out morons protesting something. And the construction companies out here just expect it.
They plan for it... they say"well, we need this much cement, this many men, so many machine... and oh yeah, bolt cutters and an overtime budget to bring people in at midnight to do the job when all the hippies are sleeping.
The college campuses for example can't knock down trees on the premises during the school year. So they wait until the summer break then knock the trees back. The hippies come back and possibly see a stump. No discussion. No protest of consequence.
In Canada they had a bridge that needed to be widened. And some trees to the right of the bridge needed to be taken down. Of course the fucking trees were swarming with dreadlocked buffoons. So the city said "you win, we won't take the trees down, everyone go home"... hippies cleared out... and at midnight that very night the city just cut all the trees down that were in the way of the bridge.
And this is what the social discussion is at this point.
The stupid mountain in question is covered with fucking telescopes. Go up there and look at it. There are loads. Saying "oh not one more or it will anger our impotent god!'... please.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Nope.
Just asking honestly - when people are driven from their lands from 1920 to 1948 and lose everything, and in my case lose an uncle to drowning and another uncle sent to siberia - and have a portion of my family deported to australia during that time - I'm asking an honest question as a first generation American.
How does my family get everything back in Lithuania? Why do the people protesting a telescope refuse to care about my families plight, and with that asked and answered - why should I care about theirs?
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
Chowing down on dozens of pounds of pork, spam, and pineapple and turning your body into a quivering tub of flaps of lard is no way to go through life, son.
Enjoying yourself isn't the way to go through life? Considering you only have one life to spend why shouldn't you want to enjoy it?
wow..
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
The native claim that this is the first mountain in the chain and where the 'goddess' first set foot. Really. They are as bad as bible thumpers demanding fossils a million years old are not so. Hawaii is the last island in the chain. There is a new one on the sea floor rising to the east of Hawaii. Science tells us, clearly, a tectonic plate is moving that has created the islands. Their beliefs are easily proven false, just as some many others are. I have no respect for 'traditions' that cannot be reconciled with reality. Christian, Islamic, Jewish or Hawaiian. Anyway, as the Hawaii natives didn't arrive there until a few centuries back, how the hell would they know which island was first?
Tautologies are neat that way. Ancient Greeks were great at mathematics...so modern day residents of Athens shouldn't complain if a nuclear power plant is built on the Parthenon! To supply energy to people who don't even live in the city!
That's a bad argument. The US says they annexed Hawaii and built military bases there. Nobody stopped them. Ergo, Hawaii is part of the US.
Russia says they annexed Crimea (with a popular vote even [allegedly]) and built military bases there (technically already had military bases there). Nobody stopped them. Ergo, the Crimea is part of Russia.
Actually, the Russian claim to the Crimea goes back far longer and probably has more substance.
They're not preserving nature with this act. Nature will be just fine even after the construction. This is just as it has always been - an excuse to get paid off.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
You YOLO people are ridiculous. You don't know any better than anyone else what happens when we die, so shut the fuck up!
Enjoy your life? Yes, but, do it with less stupid, please.
And once again, the cultists are standing in the way of scientific progress. Sickening.
You're not alone in those observations. People say it is against Hawaiian culture and/or religion, but they never explain how or give any historical basis, and it seems like you're just not supposed to ask if you're not 'local.' I think it is funny that this protest really kicked up during the last Merrie Monarch festival, named for King David Kalkaua, who supported astronomy in Hawai'i. It really reeks of the whole 'there are parts of the Bible I like and parts I don't like' kind of hypocrisy that some groups like to use to justify whatever their present course of action happens to be.
you're comparing an ancient manmade structure to a fucking volcano?? How does that work again?
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
awesome. So the police should know who to arrest, and just go do it already.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
And what would have been the punishment?
Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States. This may sound preposterous but it has been reported on. Essentially the United States to control of Hawaii in the same way that Russia took control of Crimea.
Almost, usually it's the last line in the article you read, it was annexed to stop the depression cheaper sugar caused.
Around 1893 "Without Presidential approval, marines stormed the islands, and the American minister to the islands raised the stars and stripes in Honolulu. The Queen was forced to abdicate, and the matter was left for Washington politicians to settle. "
"Hawaii remained a territory until granted statehood as the fiftieth state in 1959."
First hit, they are all the same http://www.ushistory.org/us/44...
Guam, Marshall Islands, Johnston Island, there are a lot of US territories, as you were referring to.
You're not supposed to understand their objections, just nod your head in pious assent. That's how most religions work. And in this case the protesters have a little "white guilt" to mix in, which generally goes a long way.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
the pandering to religions by the USA, as long as they're Christian, rather throws out any right they have to counter it.
Hawaiians, THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD, GOT IT?
Religon? Bullshit.
Reverence? So the fuck what? Russians were reverent of Stalin. Do you give a shit, or do you want accuracy and criticism of him to be allowed by you? What about Hitler (note: Godwin doesn't say ANYTHING about having lost an argumnent, just the inevitability of a hitler comparison and that the thread will devolve into arguments about hitler not the original topic, so if you piss and moan about having Godwin'd, the only one doing that is YOU, you fuckwit), Germany damn well deified him. Should his reverence mean we should never speak badly of him?
So, apart from that, what the fuck is left to your argument it shouldn't be built?
Well fuck, if they're tearing down Mauna Kea to build this, then fuck, yeah, they should stop. Not because of any special site, but because that's a shitload of destruction just for a new telescope.
What;s that? They're not blowing it up?
Aaaw, fuck it, man, why the hell did you lie to me?!?!?
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
http://www.civilwar.org/educat...
The specific primary issue was whether or not slavery would be prohibited in new territories when they became states, changing the balance of power between slave-holding and non slave-holding states. Prior to the election of Lincoln, the balance was maintained by inducting one non slave-holding state and one slave-holding state at the same time (paired statehood grants).
The South was not fearful of the existing slave states losing their slaves, they were fearful in a change in relative power between the two power blocks, and the election of Lincoln made this inevitable.
Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was in fact a punitive action relative to the secessionists only, and only applied to the ten states then currently in rebellion. It is widely regarded as the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back", and was issued under the president's war powers, and thus necessarily excluded those areas not in rebellion. In other words, of the 4 million slaves currently held at the time, about 1 million of them were *not* freed by the proclamation, as they were within states not in open rebellion.
But nice try on your straw man argument.
Note: as a technical note, free persons who commit criminal acts *could* in fact be made slaves today through court action, since you may deny someone their liberty through due process of law. We just don't use this particular loophole within our justice system.
If my church were being torn down for a telescope, I would of course protest.
However, I would protest when they were first tearing it down in 1967, and not wait until 37 years later, in 2004, to start protesting.
They've only been protesting about how holy the site is since about 2004. When it benefitted them in ways other than piety for them to do so. This is about trying to garner international attention for the monarchist movement in Hawaii, who would like to bring back the Kingdom of Hawaii, and are still pissed off about the deposition of Queen Liliuokalani, and the effective annexation of Hawaii in 1893.
Protesting a telescope gets media attention, even though there are already 13 telescopes on the site, operated by 11 nations, and they are in fact already the largest astronomical observatory on the planet. The only thing new about this one is that it was easier to latch onto the media attention, since the telescope in question was going to be very large, and was therefore already getting media attention.
Of course, assuming this was granted (thus setting the precedent for all non extinct indian nations to reclaim their lands within the U.S. as well), there would immediately be internecine warfare as to *who*, of the 10 groups claiming to have the "rightful" king or queen among their members, got to be the "official" one.
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Custer surely would have never ever gotten that far. It takes a telescope to rile them up. Blankets? Do they need blankets?
Depends upon how far back you wish to go.
Hawaii was found by Polynesians who's DNA has proven them the discovers of America, I figure Columbus was the last person to of set foot on it's shore, yet gets all the credit.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matte...
From South America they migrated along it's coast, to Central America, and spread out into North America, becoming the Indians we know today.
This still agrees with the land bridge theory, yet A Clovis point was found to be allegedly older than possible by a land bridge crossing.
http://america.aljazeera.com/a...
The Kennewick Man was found so far out of place (and not and Indian), that made him so special. No reason there wasn't a spread of information by just that sort of person. History refuses to acknowledge the transfer of knowledge rather than inventing themselves.
While mayhaps a bit off your topic, an interest of mine that I couldn't help but reply to.
Okay. We've sued and lost.
We've sued again and lost.
We've appealed to every political figure available and lost.
We've tossed up every roadblock imaginable and lost.
So now, despite what the law says and the fact that it's obvious other people want this, we're still going to interfere and be assholes because we didn't get our way.
At this point, I'm with the social darwinists. Just roll over the fuckers. You'll be doing the species good by ridding it of obvious mental defectives.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Why doesn't he just knock them down?
This is exactly what happened. When everyone was spaced out and staring at the star-filled sky one scientist said: "Dude.... what if we build a telescope right here?".
The rest is history.
There was never any significant support for OWS outside of the people hired by George Soros, which is why it dried up after the presidential election and there was no longer a political need to impugn Romney.
You say that as if you thought it actually mattered.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The standard punishment for violating kapu (taboo) was to have your skull broken with a large club.
buy a couple of those armored bulldozers the Israelis use to flatten Palestinian houses.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
" Send em to the moon."
Hawaiian Culture Troll, meet Space Nutter Troll.
One small problem: anti-science wackjobs are just as much against space programs as they are against other applications of science.
it will be the largest telescope thus it has serious value to scinece
No! The Moon (and most other celestial visible bodies ) were sacred to ancient people! We must never send things off our planet lest we offend the gods!
There is nobody for whom the summit of Mauna Kea is their "backyard", so this isn't NIMBY. There are sincere religious and political reasons for opposing this.
Imagine yourself in their position. If a conspicuous structure on the summit of Mauna Kea offended your religious sensibilities when the first one went up, then you're not going to feel less strongly about the thirteenth or fourteenth to go up. Likewise spreading the development to a second, pristine sacred site wouldn't placate you.
The position that nobody's religious views should ever matter is one most people wouldn't agree with, but at least it's a principled position. Claiming (without proof) that views that stand in the way of something you want are insincere and should be disregarded strikes me as dishonest.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Apparently there aren't enough protesters to kill this development project, you know what might help? More well funded people that don't want development. But where do you find people that want an area clear of unnatural smog, light polution, and people? Astronomers? No clearly we just saw from Karmashock's post that they only want to ruin the island with their giant ugly telescopes.
Strange assumptions. One you are assuming that nobody cared or were somehow obligated to go to your homeland and get your land back for you. Even stranger is that you assume that your opinion matters because you think that you had something happen that was similar but was in no way related. Even more odd is that you assume that something that happens inside of the US is going to help you regain property lost to the USSR. You could potentially get your land back but it would likely mean you would have to purchase it. It may not be for sale. The land in this situation neither belongs to you nor does it belong to the scientists.
However, having thought about this, there are already telescopes there. I am not entirely sure what difference an additional telescope is going to make at this point. This does not, of course, get you "your" land back. You will have to seek assistance in another country, a country that is not the United States - the country that took the land is the one you want to approach, for remediation. This may be a difficult situation for you to understand but the US is not responsible, it is not in the US, and the US is not obligated to assist you in getting your land back. Perhaps your relatives should have fought or purchased land in Siberia? Then you would not have to worry about it or you would, at least, be closer to the source of your ire.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
It's a little sad to see people fighting so hard for the cause of ignorance...
Has anyone bothered to ask them what they REALLY want? This project has been planned for at least a decade and they are only now starting to aggressively protest? This tells me this has nothing to do with sacred ground, they want a payoff of some kind. "$Bignum will appease the gods."
Grab the protesters and throw them over the side.
This is not new, and happens everywhere. It isn't so much a protest is it is an negotiation tactic.
You just want to do a giant selfie don't you?!
You are being purposefully obtuse. They are American hence their culture and religions are also American, not my definition of what is or is not American culture, theirs. They are American hence their culture and religions as also American. It is obvious that the only American culture celebrated in America is immigrant culture and native culture is excluded from public recognition and celebration. Every time they challenge actions based upon their native culture and religion, it is emphatically rejected by the majority of Americans and the American government as not being American. Nothing to do with what I define as being elements of American but everything to do with 'ALL' immigrant nations and how native culture, religion and history are not accepted as being the countries culture, religion and history but being separate from it.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I am a non-native Australian and hence things like a 'Fair Go' http://www.theage.com.au/news/..., supporting the 'Battler' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., cause me some problem with regard to the treatment of the 'adjective' people of Australia (adjective as the Australian government refers to them via an adjective rather than the names of their appropriate nations) and just like other countries their culture and religion are somehow considered foreign to Australian religion and culture. So it is not the question of a particular cultural or religious element but how it is refereed to as not being part of that countries culture and religious elements.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
The point
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Your head