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Protesters Block Effort To Restart Work On Controversial Hawaii Telescope
sciencehabit writes: An attempt to restart construction on what would be one of the world's largest telescopes was blocked yesterday, after state authorities escorting construction vehicles clashed with protesters blockading the road to the summit of Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano. Officers from Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR), and construction workers for the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT), turned back from the summit shortly after noon Wednesday, citing concerns for public safety after finding the road blocked by boulders. The withdrawal followed several hours of clashes with Native Hawaiian protesters blockading the road, culminating in the arrests of 11 men and women, including several protest organizers. The protesters have said the $1.4 billion TMT would desecrate sacred land.
$Bignum will appease the gods.
They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
It isn't any more sacred than a church is. The people doing this protesting are no better than those who would block laws being passed in a country because they didn't go in line with their religion.
You know what? You throw a stick in the air around here it falls on some sacred fern.
They block the very thing that would likely keep the area underdeveloped. I think it likely they actually want more development and more money.
make the best hamburger.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Then a telescope?
But ... those are sacred boulders! They shouldn't be rolling them around willy-nilly across white man's roads. If the natives aren't going to respect every last little part of Mauna Kea, then why should we?
Have gnu, will travel.
The governor of Hawaii tried a compromise where they would decomission 4 old telescopes, to be able to build this new one.
It was rejected.
My suggestion is, ante up on the compromise. Promise to build the new one on the site of one of the old ones. In other words, don't create any more development on undeveloped land, which seems to be a big part of the what the protestors object to.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Note the huge error, the denial of those persons, their culture and their heritage "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture". This repeated denial of equal existence by Immigrants that stole the land but deny the people. It is not "sacred sites in Hawaiian religion and culture", a denial that they are American, it is "sacred sites in Hawaiian American, religion and culture". They are meant to be Americans, their culture and religion are mean to be American culture and religion and not somehow be publicly defined as be foreign and those people are being foreigners. This is repeated again and again in immigrant dominated societies, the complete denial of those original inhabitants as being real citizens, they are foreigners in the own land, who hold foreign non-Immigrant cultures and beliefs and whose history is not Immigrant America, it is foreign to Immigrant America but the immigrant capitalists of course still want that land whilst they was want to denying the people and who those people are. Hawaii culture and religion is 'American' culture and religion and you are horribly racist and prejudiced if you believe any different (one element of it, of course, not the totality of American culture and religion). They are meant to be Americans and hence their culture and religion are meant to be American and not denied by immigrants as being somehow foreign to those immigrants and thus denied in a country now predominately occupied and controlled by foreign immigrants.
Hawaiians are Polynesian; ethnically, culturally, linguistically... Long before they were Ameican. No reason why they should deny that heritage in order to conform to your definition of 'American'. That word is already quite well defined.
You have an interesting viewpoint. I (too?) live in Hawai`i and I can agree with some of it.
But one thing often said here by those in favor of continuing with the TMT is that the ancient Hawaiians themselves, as master celestial navigators, would have readily embraced something that advanced scientific knowledge. Is the idea of the TMT out of line with Hawaiian spiritual practice? As I understand it, not at all.
There are already about a dozen telescopes atop the mountain. Will one more desecrate the `aina (land) so much more? I'm not qualified to answer that, but it's hard to believe that it's such a make-or-break issue.
Fundamentally, it isn't the telescope or the `aina or spiritual practices that make up the issue. Instead, it seem that it's about an indigenous people resenting the very real slights and persecutions of the past and projecting them into the present; it's also about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. But in today's Hawai`i, it is most certainly not the haole (general meaning today of Caucasian, though that's not really what the word means) who rules and runs the show.
There are over a dozen telescopes at the same site where they intend to build the TMT, some of which have been there since the late 60s. Their complaints that their "most sacred site will be desecrated" seem to be a bit late. I think there has already been an agreement to remove quite a few of the current telescopes to revert a significant portion of the site to a more natural state. There is another larger mountain on the same island, something tells me if they began building telescopes on that mountain it would suddenly become a "most sacred site". This to me smells much more like a NIMBY group using vague religious/cultural references to try to get there way.
should be fucking outlawed.
I REALLY want to go off on a rant here, but I think that sums it up pretty well. I'm fucking sick of the NIMBY crowd, I bet they don't even live in sight of the mountain.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
American culture certainly does not have any respect for... protesters stopping working-class people from doing what they are paid to do.
For a disturbingly large part of American culture, that isn't true. See: Occupy Wall Street.
That sad thing is this isn't even all native Hawaiians or even a majority. It's just a small minority of extremely loud native Hawaiians. Plenty of native Hawaiians have no problem with the observatories and actually want them built
The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
Sacred volcano where the natives threw people into.
The protesters are claiming things like pollution from the telescope will kill fish in Hilo bay. WTF? You can't even sneeze on the MK summit w/o a permit. All the facilities up there get regular inspections, and can get in trouble for even a wayward piece of trash. Construction vehicles must be parked on plastic to catch oil drips. Not so on the rest of the island. Hell, when they change the oil in cars around here, they just dump the oil on the ground. They don't give a damn. Yet they'll claim the telescopes are killing fish half way across the island? They claim it's a watershed, yet the site's chosen b/c of 300 days/year of clear skies, and how dry it is?
Hmph. Nutcases.
i had no idea simply being born gave you property rights.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The telescope is the eyes on the world watching http://www.dailymotion.com/vid...
Jason Momoa A Hawaiian native, has posted a YouTube video in opposition to the TMT.
Seriously, You don't want to mess with Khal Drogo!
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
The protesters call themselves kanaka, the working class of precolonial Hawaii. Did you know that in that culture only the ali'i, the hereditary nobility, were permitted to go above the treeline on Mauna Kea? Thus by the laws of their own culture, the protesters at the 9,000 ft level, are there illegally.
Just because someone is self desecrating and a walking slab of lard does not mean they don't have a valid argument. Your logic is fallacious.
"control the lands that their birth gave them"
sorry. the "you can't own the sky, how can you own the land?" crowd doesn't get to call birthright ownership.
In the old days they used to be able to pay off some local leaders to make the resistance go away. Now, they're absolutely bending over backwards, funding education initiatives, etc, and the protestors won't go away. Why? Two reasons. First, they made the mistake of breaking ground on a day that drew more attention because the activists were also doing something that day. Second, with Twitter and the internet the True Believers don't need local leaders to stir them up and connect them, they can do it themselves.
Basically, they're trying to placate a bunch of implacable Luddites and Fanatics who won't be placated. Nothing but complete surrender or martyrdom will satisfy them.
It's infuriating.
Luddites? Maybe they need more apps.
Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States.
You birther's are simply not going to go away, are ya?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So who gave the observatory the land? Your christian God?
Let's turn every fern into a no trespassing sign. Privatize photosynthesis!
Why not just smoke a peace pipe with them? Those bulldozers cause a lot of damage. Scientists need to mellow out, get high more, look at the heavens from a more spiritual point of view. Fuck the observatory. Just go camping, get back in balance with nature.
The Cat should make short work of the piled-up rocks, and the high-pressure hoses would be ready in case the demonstrators start throwing anything.
Now that science itself is under attack, we need to be prepared to defend it.
The scoops are coming. The scoops are coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
What law gives the government the right to destroy sacred land?
From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
Scientists would love to go to the moon, build a telescope, and use it there.
So you had to walk uphill in the snow both ways to and from school, so everyone else has to too?
Exactly. Win-win. Give the scientists the funds to do it; have the Fed finance it with created money. It's in the General Welfare, why would it cause inflation?
I live in california where we always have some group of hairy drugged out morons protesting something. And the construction companies out here just expect it.
They plan for it... they say"well, we need this much cement, this many men, so many machine... and oh yeah, bolt cutters and an overtime budget to bring people in at midnight to do the job when all the hippies are sleeping.
The college campuses for example can't knock down trees on the premises during the school year. So they wait until the summer break then knock the trees back. The hippies come back and possibly see a stump. No discussion. No protest of consequence.
In Canada they had a bridge that needed to be widened. And some trees to the right of the bridge needed to be taken down. Of course the fucking trees were swarming with dreadlocked buffoons. So the city said "you win, we won't take the trees down, everyone go home"... hippies cleared out... and at midnight that very night the city just cut all the trees down that were in the way of the bridge.
And this is what the social discussion is at this point.
The stupid mountain in question is covered with fucking telescopes. Go up there and look at it. There are loads. Saying "oh not one more or it will anger our impotent god!'... please.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Nope.
Just asking honestly - when people are driven from their lands from 1920 to 1948 and lose everything, and in my case lose an uncle to drowning and another uncle sent to siberia - and have a portion of my family deported to australia during that time - I'm asking an honest question as a first generation American.
How does my family get everything back in Lithuania? Why do the people protesting a telescope refuse to care about my families plight, and with that asked and answered - why should I care about theirs?
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
Chowing down on dozens of pounds of pork, spam, and pineapple and turning your body into a quivering tub of flaps of lard is no way to go through life, son.
Enjoying yourself isn't the way to go through life? Considering you only have one life to spend why shouldn't you want to enjoy it?
wow..
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
And guns protect scientific truths? If my gun is bigger than yours, you have to believe in what I say? Poppycock. We are mere stewards of the land, and the native americans were better stewards.
Tautologies are neat that way. Ancient Greeks were great at mathematics...so modern day residents of Athens shouldn't complain if a nuclear power plant is built on the Parthenon! To supply energy to people who don't even live in the city!
That's a bad argument. The US says they annexed Hawaii and built military bases there. Nobody stopped them. Ergo, Hawaii is part of the US.
Russia says they annexed Crimea (with a popular vote even [allegedly]) and built military bases there (technically already had military bases there). Nobody stopped them. Ergo, the Crimea is part of Russia.
Actually, the Russian claim to the Crimea goes back far longer and probably has more substance.
Native Americans and Native Hawaians aren't really related. But they both caused lots of extinctions when they arrived, and if they did less than the West it's largely because they had less capability to do anything. What makes you think either was a good steward?
They're not preserving nature with this act. Nature will be just fine even after the construction. This is just as it has always been - an excuse to get paid off.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
You really are a monumentally stupid cunt, aren't you?
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
If the native americans had invented mass-production and industrial machinery first, they would have been just as destructive.
You're not alone in those observations. People say it is against Hawaiian culture and/or religion, but they never explain how or give any historical basis, and it seems like you're just not supposed to ask if you're not 'local.' I think it is funny that this protest really kicked up during the last Merrie Monarch festival, named for King David Kalkaua, who supported astronomy in Hawai'i. It really reeks of the whole 'there are parts of the Bible I like and parts I don't like' kind of hypocrisy that some groups like to use to justify whatever their present course of action happens to be.
you're comparing an ancient manmade structure to a fucking volcano?? How does that work again?
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
awesome. So the police should know who to arrest, and just go do it already.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
Technically, the acquisition of Hawaii was botched and it is not legally part of the United States. This may sound preposterous but it has been reported on. Essentially the United States to control of Hawaii in the same way that Russia took control of Crimea.
Almost, usually it's the last line in the article you read, it was annexed to stop the depression cheaper sugar caused.
Around 1893 "Without Presidential approval, marines stormed the islands, and the American minister to the islands raised the stars and stripes in Honolulu. The Queen was forced to abdicate, and the matter was left for Washington politicians to settle. "
"Hawaii remained a territory until granted statehood as the fiftieth state in 1959."
First hit, they are all the same http://www.ushistory.org/us/44...
Guam, Marshall Islands, Johnston Island, there are a lot of US territories, as you were referring to.
Find out what person or group benefits from this charade and eliminate their incentive to protest the telescope. Debunk the mystical nonsense that they use to indoctrinate their followers. In most (all?) cases the followers are motivated by fear, and the leaders are experts at exploiting that. Empower these ignorant people to understand the real world, which may not be quite as scary as they think.
And why the first thing the Americas did were to send Christian missionaries everywhere to educate the heathens (one must know of god before being allowed into heaven - the key). The Spaniards sent Catholic missionaries, who had the backing of the pope and power, (Why in South America to this day east of a latitude one speaks Portuguese to the west Spanish, all to end a squabble.
All sent to debunk existing thinking, and to what was the truth (to most), but it's a timely process. Christians practice peace so a long time, the Catholic's were mostly converted warriors spending little time explaining what was very important to them, by setting examples; faster but still taking generations.
You're not supposed to understand their objections, just nod your head in pious assent. That's how most religions work. And in this case the protesters have a little "white guilt" to mix in, which generally goes a long way.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
except Hawai'i isn't at a plate boundary, in fact it's two thusand miles from the nearest one: this is pure volcanism, Hawai'i is riding a mantle plume which is currently 25 miles to the South East of Loa, under the Loihi sea mount.
Citation: Jackson et. al., 1972
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
Oh, and the chain actually starts in the Aleutian group, several thousand miles to the North.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
http://www.civilwar.org/educat...
The specific primary issue was whether or not slavery would be prohibited in new territories when they became states, changing the balance of power between slave-holding and non slave-holding states. Prior to the election of Lincoln, the balance was maintained by inducting one non slave-holding state and one slave-holding state at the same time (paired statehood grants).
The South was not fearful of the existing slave states losing their slaves, they were fearful in a change in relative power between the two power blocks, and the election of Lincoln made this inevitable.
Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was in fact a punitive action relative to the secessionists only, and only applied to the ten states then currently in rebellion. It is widely regarded as the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back", and was issued under the president's war powers, and thus necessarily excluded those areas not in rebellion. In other words, of the 4 million slaves currently held at the time, about 1 million of them were *not* freed by the proclamation, as they were within states not in open rebellion.
But nice try on your straw man argument.
Note: as a technical note, free persons who commit criminal acts *could* in fact be made slaves today through court action, since you may deny someone their liberty through due process of law. We just don't use this particular loophole within our justice system.
If my church were being torn down for a telescope, I would of course protest.
However, I would protest when they were first tearing it down in 1967, and not wait until 37 years later, in 2004, to start protesting.
They've only been protesting about how holy the site is since about 2004. When it benefitted them in ways other than piety for them to do so. This is about trying to garner international attention for the monarchist movement in Hawaii, who would like to bring back the Kingdom of Hawaii, and are still pissed off about the deposition of Queen Liliuokalani, and the effective annexation of Hawaii in 1893.
Protesting a telescope gets media attention, even though there are already 13 telescopes on the site, operated by 11 nations, and they are in fact already the largest astronomical observatory on the planet. The only thing new about this one is that it was easier to latch onto the media attention, since the telescope in question was going to be very large, and was therefore already getting media attention.
Of course, assuming this was granted (thus setting the precedent for all non extinct indian nations to reclaim their lands within the U.S. as well), there would immediately be internecine warfare as to *who*, of the 10 groups claiming to have the "rightful" king or queen among their members, got to be the "official" one.
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
What law gives the government the right to destroy sacred land?
I had to study law just enough to survive, and did rather well, I came across a statement I can't remember in it's entirety (I'm old and can get away with it) but there are two things law can't make you do, one is to decide who you are to marry, and one other I just can't come up with. and the first one is debatable.
Three cities make up here, Lewis and Clark passed this way (You could walk on the backs of Salmon to cross the river), any island you dig on your most likely going to hit Indian artifacts, The Kennewick Man was found here by two sneaking unpaid into an event. -In effect the entire area is sacred land.
Don't get me wrong I agree with where your going with this. The cities were here long before I was.
Custer surely would have never ever gotten that far. It takes a telescope to rile them up. Blankets? Do they need blankets?
Depends upon how far back you wish to go.
Hawaii was found by Polynesians who's DNA has proven them the discovers of America, I figure Columbus was the last person to of set foot on it's shore, yet gets all the credit.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matte...
From South America they migrated along it's coast, to Central America, and spread out into North America, becoming the Indians we know today.
This still agrees with the land bridge theory, yet A Clovis point was found to be allegedly older than possible by a land bridge crossing.
http://america.aljazeera.com/a...
The Kennewick Man was found so far out of place (and not and Indian), that made him so special. No reason there wasn't a spread of information by just that sort of person. History refuses to acknowledge the transfer of knowledge rather than inventing themselves.
While mayhaps a bit off your topic, an interest of mine that I couldn't help but reply to.
Okay. We've sued and lost.
We've sued again and lost.
We've appealed to every political figure available and lost.
We've tossed up every roadblock imaginable and lost.
So now, despite what the law says and the fact that it's obvious other people want this, we're still going to interfere and be assholes because we didn't get our way.
At this point, I'm with the social darwinists. Just roll over the fuckers. You'll be doing the species good by ridding it of obvious mental defectives.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
This is exactly what happened. When everyone was spaced out and staring at the star-filled sky one scientist said: "Dude.... what if we build a telescope right here?".
The rest is history.
Ain't you afraid of some slippery slope here? What if the "first nations" decide that, hey, all of the US, Canada and so on is actually ours, GTFO assholes!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The fact that the government makes the laws. Don't like it, vote it out. Can't vote it out? Then I guess the majority doesn't give a shit about the pebble.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You say that as if you thought it actually mattered.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And it's not like it would be any kind of miracle considering the tectonic activity in the area.
So if mommy goddess doesn't like use building telescopes in her sacred resting place, I guess she wouldn't have a hard time telling us in no uncertain terms.
But she's oddly silent. Guess she doesn't hate people who follow in the footsteps of her own children, who were watching the skies keenly because it was a life-or-death matter to them to know the stars and their position because they were dependent on them for navigation. Maybe she even LIKES the idea that we put her creation to the purpose she originally intended? Because why else would she put a huge mountain on an island if not as a tool to make navigation and star observation easier?
It's so terribly hard to really understand the will of the gods...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The standard punishment for violating kapu (taboo) was to have your skull broken with a large club.
buy a couple of those armored bulldozers the Israelis use to flatten Palestinian houses.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
" Send em to the moon."
Hawaiian Culture Troll, meet Space Nutter Troll.
One small problem: anti-science wackjobs are just as much against space programs as they are against other applications of science.
How do you know you're not just as wrong now as scientists were about tectonic plate theory?
We could be. So we construct telescopes to observe and get closer to the truth.
Tomorrow you might suddenly find out the Native Americans are right after all.
If someone looks through the telescope and sees the goddess holding up a sign that says, "Get off my mountaim" we will comply.
Have gnu, will travel.
Maybe you consider it unfortunate, but throughout human existence (longer than recorded history) the people with the bigger guns got to decide events and the outcome of disagreements. That is why the mid-20th century cultures of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany no longer have any say in world affairs. It is still true now and will remain so that the cultures with the smaller guns (or none) continue to exist only at the forbearance of the stronger cultures. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is, it's practically a natural law. Now what gave the European societies of the 15th through 20th centuries their bigger guns? That would be their continuous development of technology during that time, all kinds of technology, including bigger guns. Their pursuit of knowledge about the natural world and its forces (science) is what enabled the technology. Technology and those who wield it will have the final say in how things come out -- you can't rail against that any more than you can rail against gravity. And for "stewards of the land" -- the Land couldn't care less, it was here before the Native Americans and European Americans were here and will be here long after people are gone. It was here during the Cretaceous and saw the dinosaurs and their entire ecosystem wiped out -- the Land doesn't care.
There is nobody for whom the summit of Mauna Kea is their "backyard", so this isn't NIMBY. There are sincere religious and political reasons for opposing this.
Imagine yourself in their position. If a conspicuous structure on the summit of Mauna Kea offended your religious sensibilities when the first one went up, then you're not going to feel less strongly about the thirteenth or fourteenth to go up. Likewise spreading the development to a second, pristine sacred site wouldn't placate you.
The position that nobody's religious views should ever matter is one most people wouldn't agree with, but at least it's a principled position. Claiming (without proof) that views that stand in the way of something you want are insincere and should be disregarded strikes me as dishonest.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I really really don't think this is true. ..., zero, ... incredibly accurate calendars (and not just in Mesoamerica), many of the commonest vegetables at the market, lots of useful animal breeds in general, not just rubber but vulcanized balls, sandals, balloons, rubber syringes, bigger cities than Europe, canals, lots of agriculture... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"...smelting, soldering, annealing, electroplating, sintering, alloying, low-wax casting, and many other metallurgical techniques independent of any Old World influences",
Western European belief systems, by and large, gave the okay on all sorts of conquest (for god and salvation), whereas native American mythos by and large speak of a relationship with nature. That's not to say that there wasnt plenty of millitant behavior in the pre-Columbus Americas. But it looks like overall, the natives of North and South America were more interested in making lots of food and medicine than making bigger weapons and ships.
Apparently there aren't enough protesters to kill this development project, you know what might help? More well funded people that don't want development. But where do you find people that want an area clear of unnatural smog, light polution, and people? Astronomers? No clearly we just saw from Karmashock's post that they only want to ruin the island with their giant ugly telescopes.
This is new to me. What extinctions did the arrival of the first Hawaiians cause?
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
We already decided that and have treaties for it. Now if you will uphold the treaties we will be all set. Thanks. (Otherwise we will be forced to take your money via Bingo and building casinos. We have the technology.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Strange assumptions. One you are assuming that nobody cared or were somehow obligated to go to your homeland and get your land back for you. Even stranger is that you assume that your opinion matters because you think that you had something happen that was similar but was in no way related. Even more odd is that you assume that something that happens inside of the US is going to help you regain property lost to the USSR. You could potentially get your land back but it would likely mean you would have to purchase it. It may not be for sale. The land in this situation neither belongs to you nor does it belong to the scientists.
However, having thought about this, there are already telescopes there. I am not entirely sure what difference an additional telescope is going to make at this point. This does not, of course, get you "your" land back. You will have to seek assistance in another country, a country that is not the United States - the country that took the land is the one you want to approach, for remediation. This may be a difficult situation for you to understand but the US is not responsible, it is not in the US, and the US is not obligated to assist you in getting your land back. Perhaps your relatives should have fought or purchased land in Siberia? Then you would not have to worry about it or you would, at least, be closer to the source of your ire.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Grab the protesters and throw them over the side.
This is not new, and happens everywhere. It isn't so much a protest is it is an negotiation tactic.
You just want to do a giant selfie don't you?!
Which means that the majority can just trash on the culture of the minority. Considering what happened to Hawaii and its previous culture, I can't blame the descendants for being sensitive.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
http://planetsave.com/2013/03/...
I love that this comment got +4 Insightful.
When else is calling someone a "monumentally stupid cunt" ever going to be so insightful again? Probably only in the comments on a vaccine story.
Thank you for the link. I am inclined to believe your link's information as I have not done any additional reading on the subject. Thank you for understanding that it was a legitimate question. We could question what is and what is not 'natural' with this. As humans are creatures created by nature and doing natural things, like eating and creating habitats, this extinction could be considered quite natural. However, that is not important really.
The person who made the claim was saying it with the connotations that it was a bad, pertinent, thing and I suppose it is something we could argue about but it has nothing to do with the actual topic, it is barely tangentially related. I was actually just curious about which species had gone extinct and how they drew the conclusions that humans were the cause. It seems there are some assumptions being made in the research and some extrapolation going on (favoring a larger result, no less) but, again, that is not relevant.
So thank you, again, for the link and it was an interesting read. I will probably look into it more later and see what else I can find.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You are being purposefully obtuse. They are American hence their culture and religions are also American, not my definition of what is or is not American culture, theirs. They are American hence their culture and religions as also American. It is obvious that the only American culture celebrated in America is immigrant culture and native culture is excluded from public recognition and celebration. Every time they challenge actions based upon their native culture and religion, it is emphatically rejected by the majority of Americans and the American government as not being American. Nothing to do with what I define as being elements of American but everything to do with 'ALL' immigrant nations and how native culture, religion and history are not accepted as being the countries culture, religion and history but being separate from it.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I am a non-native Australian and hence things like a 'Fair Go' http://www.theage.com.au/news/..., supporting the 'Battler' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., cause me some problem with regard to the treatment of the 'adjective' people of Australia (adjective as the Australian government refers to them via an adjective rather than the names of their appropriate nations) and just like other countries their culture and religion are somehow considered foreign to Australian religion and culture. So it is not the question of a particular cultural or religious element but how it is refereed to as not being part of that countries culture and religious elements.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Even more fun is the huge die-off that occurred when humans first arrived in north america. Not just birds there, but many large mammals too.
It has always tweaked my brain if that is a "natural" extinction event too. I lean toward "yes," as the humans back then were basically hunter-gatherers. Then again, even spears and pit traps are technology...
Sam
If a bird uses a stick to get a piece of fruit is that not natural? This is, at this point, purely philosophical and has no bearing on the subject at hand.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
No bearing on the subject? Didn't you say this: "We could question what is and what is not 'natural' with this."
Yes but our line of conversations (is interesting) has damned little to do with Hawaii, and some folks trying to save their sacred mountain, at this point. We could say, I am not sure that we should say, that pollution is man-made, man is natural, what humans do is thus natural - even if it means using tools, and thus conclude that pollution is natural. That was what my line of thinking was. I was not very clear about it, I suck.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The point
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Your head