Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Getting My Wife Back Into Programming After Long Maternity Leave?
An anonymous reader writes: My wife has been on a maternity leave for three years, now. She is starting to think about refreshing her coding skills and looking for a job. Before, she worked as a Java developer for around two years doing mostly Java Enterprise stuff. However, she is not very eager to go back to coding. I think she has the right mental skills to be a developer, but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general. On the other hand, it's relatively easier to find a job in IT than starting a new career.
We live in Spain, and with the current economic situation, the market for software developers is not great — but it's definitely better than other jobs. I there anything else she might do, ideally Java (but could be anything IT related) that would be easier and more fun than the typical Java Enterprise stuff, while also giving her a good change to find a decent job? (I'm a Java developer myself with many years of experience but mostly doing boring Java Enterprise stuff.)
We live in Spain, and with the current economic situation, the market for software developers is not great — but it's definitely better than other jobs. I there anything else she might do, ideally Java (but could be anything IT related) that would be easier and more fun than the typical Java Enterprise stuff, while also giving her a good change to find a decent job? (I'm a Java developer myself with many years of experience but mostly doing boring Java Enterprise stuff.)
It feels like you're trying to push her into a career she doesn't really want to be in. If I was you, I'd respect her wishes and instead support her while she finds something she's passionate about.
This signature can save you $400 on your car insurance!
Two great careers for software developers who don't really like writing software are project management and business analyst. Both are very necessary in almost any IT group, and having software development experience will be an asset in both. Analysts that can write SQL and fully understand object modeling are rare and valuable, as are project managers who understand the software development life cycle from the viewpoint of developers.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
....why go back to a job she has no passion for? There's a lot of tangential work that can be done, or maybe it's time for a navel gaze and something entirely new.
My wife was out of the programming workforce for about twenty years, and worried that her FORTRAN skills were no longer needed :-)
I encouraged her to take some Java classes, she liked it a lot, found an interesting job and several years later is loving it.
The thing is, do the research to find an *interesting* job -- yeah, it may be just "Java Enterprise stuff", but if it's an interesting project, and something you believe in, with good people, it's worth doing. My wife's team is a crazy bunch, and she enjoys their interactions (and telling me the wild stories) a lot.
She's been able to learn a lot of useful side technologies (XSLT, Databases, basic web stuff, etc.) so she'll be able to find a new job if the rumors of them moving the project she's on several hundred miles away pan out.
Anyway, with you working, she doesn't have to settle for the "first available" job, look around a lot, interview a bunch (if nothing else, to hone interviewing skills).
Good luck to you both!
"but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general" I think you can answer it yourself.
If you don't enjoy programming or technology, go find something else you are interested in. All the good programmers and IT people I've met have enjoyed what they do. The ones that don't are usually dragging down the rest of the team.
Presumably because they need the money, and as was pointed out by the OP, it's easier to break back into a field you were already in, than a new one. Breaking into a totally new field not right out of college *is* kind of difficult, after all, especially if you've been totally out of the workforce for 3 years (but even if you haven't).
My wife is also looking towards completely changing career paths entirely out of IT (where she's been for a few years). I totally wish her luck, but it's not the easiest thing to do, and she knows it.
That said, yes, it is kind of silly that it was the husband posting this to /., and not the person who is actually looking for advice.
Maybe she should try a different programming language? Python is still object-oriented, but without the need for an IDE and eschews a lot of the conventions that many people complain about having ton write Java day-in and out.
I know developers who have loved writting Python code having been long time .Net developers.
Her life choices are putting unfair stress on her husband and eventually, her child. If a man chose to take 3 years off to raise a child and clean a house, we'd castigate him. But because it's a lady, we have to respect her life choices? Baloney. She needs to get her mopey ass out of the kitchen and into a real job. She needs to assume her position as a productive adult and not a stay at home child.
Sometimes the reality of needing to eat and have housing supercede what people are passionate about. He's not asking for marital advice, he's asking for options hat she might enjoy more that will still put food on the table.
I see another "poster girl" raising awareness of the "pay inequality" in the making...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
She is starting to think about refreshing her coding skills and looking for a job
Doesn't sound urgent or like they need the money.
Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
You said what she doesn't want to do, but gave no indication of what she wants to do. There may be a not-terribly-difficult way to get from programming to what she wants to do, but without knowing what that is it is impossible to say.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
You listed a bunch of strengths:
1) she has J2EE experience
2) she lives in Spain where the developer job market sucks
3) she has the talent
4) she'd like to move up to a better job
So, how about she goes and finds un/under-employed local programmers, sets up a syndicate, and manages outsourcing jobs for enterprises in areas where the labor market is tight?
That will gain her marketable sales and management skills which she can then parlay into better career opportunities. Maybe even sell the company once it's successful.
I'm assuming she can speak English about as well as you can, which is plenty good (I can't tell if you're native or not).
Here's the thing that bothers me most about your post, though: she's of child-bearing age, so I'll assume under 40, and you say doing IT is better than picking up a new career now. Don't fool yourself - she'll be working another 40 years (unless the AI's take over) and so she's less than 1/3rd of the way into her career. If you love her, you'll want her to be happy for the next 40 years, and you'll support her in finding/creating something that supports her passions and can pay the bills. So, if she really hates IT, ignore what I wrote above and work hard to help her find her purpose.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
First answer why does she want to go back to work? Is it because your family needs a second income, is it because she's bored at home and being a full time mother is not what she wants to do, something different, maybe she's looking for part time work. All of these are equally valid options, but before she decides to do something, she should understand why, to ensure that she's actually fulfilling those goals.
Unless your family absolutely needs the extra money, and there is no option for any other employment why try to have her go into programming?
She only had 2 years experience to begin with, so she's still an entry level developer. Basically that means going back to programming might as well be entering a new career as well.
If she doesn't enjoy or want to be a developer it's more likely she's going to be very dissatisfied and not fulfilled.
My suggestion would be to have her apply for a number of different types of jobs. Some that fulfill the reasons that she wants to go back into the work force that could be built into a career that she wants to be in, and maybe, developer positions as a last resort.
The traditional career forks for developers are the obvious options for someone with coding skills, but not coding desire. Someone often acts as an interface between the software developers and the users of that software. This is a path that allows her to use her old skills, develop new skills, and gives her an option to move into a more generic career later.
It has been my experience that many women enjoy and are actually better than men at UX design. The best books I have are authored by women and when I pass ideas or problems by others, women often bring better insights and ideas than men.
how do you know they only had one kid during those three years?
It's a huge wave that will continue to grow. Knowing Java already, it won't be like she'll be starting from scratch. She might even be able to do some work from home and start part time.
I guess things really are different in Europe with respect to employment. I understand Spain is having economic troubles now, but you are very lucky your wife has the choice. In the US, most women who take time off to take care of children are branded unemployable, and often treated worse than a non-mother with a long-term gap in their employment.
It's a legitimate concern for my wife and I. She has a good job that pays well, but is very inflexible and involves a long commute. My oldest kid is going to be entering school next year, and the younger one is only 2 years behind that. I would love for her to have the choice to stay home and work a more flexible job or just take care of the kids. The problem is, once she pulls that trigger and decides to leave, getting comparable employment again is extremely hard. We could get by on one income, but frankly having the financial cushion allows us to actually save, and enjoy life at the same time. Without that second income, there would be some pretty deep cuts since we live in an expensive area and have other high fixed costs. So yes, we've definitely talked about it and are both coming to the same conclusion -- that leaving is a one-way choice and it would severely reduce our retirement savings, etc. Not that she won't eventually do it...the sad thing is that it's a permanent reduction in income.
Whether she wants to go back to coding, or do something different, she should be happy she has this choice. If she doesn't like development, a systems analyst or PM would be a good choice. An analyst with half a clue on how some of the stuff she's specifying works is a huge plus.
It feels like you're trying to push her into a career she doesn't really want to be in. If I was you, I'd respect her wishes and instead support her while she finds something she's passionate about.
Let's be honest, writing enterprise Java is enough to kill anyone's passion. That stuff sucks your soul out until you make it to architect level (then you spend your time sucking other people's soul out).
She should find a job that interests her more (while lets be honest, work is called work because it's not fun). Then, if that job happens to be embedded programming, she get a raspberry pi and work with it for a while. After a couple months she should be more than proficient enough to find a job in embedded.
In any case look through job postings until she finds something interesting. Once again, work is generally not interesting.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I got back into programming after a 7 year hiatus during which I went to law school and practiced law. I spent about 3 months writing apps to refresh my skills and then took the first job I got offered a few weeks after posting my resume. I am now back to senior developer status after 2 years, making good money. I was 8 years in to my career before I went back to school and I continued to do development work here and there (ie personal programming projects) while I was out of the industry.
The big problem here is your wife's lack of passion. If someone doesn't want to code, you're fighting a losing battle. It takes at least 5-6 years of intensive development experience before you start becoming genuinely good at coding. You need to see lots of problems and solve them. You need to fuck up at least a few times and learn from your mistakes. You need to overengineer something by accident at least once and learn from your wasted effort. You need to overcommit to a project and burn out. You need to make assumptions and then get burned when they turn into defects because it turns out you aren't a mind reader. You need to work with lots of developers that are better than you and learn new ways of doing things.
Suffering through that pain and humiliation for years takes a real passion for programming. If you aren't passionate about it, you aren't going to keep coming back to it again and again.
Or you can look at the reverse... Those of us having children are the only ones helping you have all the social welfare programs (pensions and Social Security, etc.) after you stop working.
So, yes, I am getting a raw deal because I am raising kids that will contribute to me and to you and you are getting a free ride by having no kids.
Ask Slashdot was useful once, but in the last few years it's just become an opportunity to abuse the questioner. Okay, sometimes the questions are really dumb, but how about we try to assume good faith and not expect them to write an essay covering every possible objection first? You know, kinda like Stack Exchange or something.
In fact, screw it, Slashdot is dying. I recommend asking the same question on Stack Exchange, you will get more helpful answers.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
3 YEARS of maternity leave?
Sure, why not? Raising kids is a lot of work and pretty important to the well being of our species. Why not allow people the time to do it well? Honestly I'm fairly disgusted by how little help is given to new parents here in the US. (close to none)
Seriously, maternity leave is like a year, more than that is taking time to spend with a kid as a stay at home mother (which is a good thing generally)
One year is as arbitrary as three. And you admit that spending some time with the child when they are young is a good thing so what really is your problem with maternity leave? Just because it isn't the amount you are accustomed to doesn't mean it is wrong.
Pensions? Social Security? Really, at my age, I will never have a pension when I reach old age. It's what I can save away in my retirement funds and build into a nest egg.
I don't expect to receive any free govt. hand outs. Nor do I expect to need it.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
What part of
makes you think she wants her husband to be the sole provider? Is there something wrong with wanting a rewarding career that you're passionate about?
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
Although I agree with your sentiment, Slashdot is dying. It was painfully clear in the thread about James Horner. However I did want to ask: When did Ask Slashdot EVER produce no criticism? I remember ten years ago when the big complaint was that people would ask any question at all when there was the magic Google around.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Not only do we have to respect her life choices, we need to make sure that once she does choose to go back to work, she starts off with pay not equal to where it was when she left but equal to where she would be had she not left and continued to receive COLAs and promotions, etc. Or are you really stupid enough to believe that the woman sitting next to you doing the same work as you at the same level as you who has never had children and worked reduced hours and taken maternity leave, etc. really is being paid less than you?
I can sympathize with not wanting to be a Java programmer in the enterprise space. Perhaps that's what makes the prospect of programming seem boring to her.
Different programming languages involve different thought processes, and work better in certain domains than others. If she's retooling anyway, perhaps she should look at other languages. I'm not sure what's hot in the Spanish job market at the moment, but perhaps looking for job listings from the type of company or organization she'd like to work for would give a hint as to what language to learn. If you want a few generic recommendations, then the ubiquitous Javascript (some modern style, not going to advocate for or against a specific framework or library), or the JVM centric Scala, or the niche-pervasive Python come to mind.
I'm going to avoid the sweeping generalizations about gender that seem to epidemic, and just suggest that the focus should be on the organization and problems to be solved, and not on the technology. If you like those, the job has potential to be interesting - and if the organization is any good, they'll have chosen a language that fits their problem space well.
That's not rhetorical. She isn't posting this; you are, and there's a reason.
You've already established that your wife doesn't want a 'job' in IT.
Go listen to her and find out what she wants. If she wants your help, help her.
"...it's relatively easier to find a job in IT than starting a new career..."
comes off a "IT folks and my wife can handle jobs, not careers".
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I don't know the woman, but calling someone who has been chasing a toddler around for 3 years "lazy" is probably why. It might not be skilled work, but it is exhausting.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Of the programmers that I have worked with, it's easy to pick out the ones that are not passionate about the work.
They invariably produce substandard work that gets shoehorned past acceptance testing due to late deadlines and overly-forgiving (forgotten?) standards. No one wants to work with them or maintain their leavings because the poorly crafted code shows failings in all ways possible.
It's rarely easy to explain to decision makers the true cost of efforts by the others trying to make up for the poor decisions in design, lack of reasonable planning, lack of analysis.
Oddly I am now reflecting on how many of them will even openly say how much they hated programming but they do it because they're "good at it" (they *NEVER* really are) and they can't afford to change career tracks. It's sad that they're only stuck in it because of their own illusions.
Help her find what she's good at and what she loves, or she'll be miserable.
Slashdot.org - News for lost souls and drifters in life who can't decide what to do with themselves.
Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
How about Android? Use all those mad Java skills, but skip all the "Enterprise" BS. Might be fun.
Maybe because being a full time mom is a perfectly valid option? And also, for many people going to work instead of staying home with the kids is the lazy option.
If she's thinking about it, why are you the one asking about it?
Sounds more like she's thinking about not trying very hard to get back into it ... You ever consider that she doesn't actually want to? Maybe you want her too? Maybe she's only trying to put forth enough effort to appease you but not actually enough to get a job?
Something is wrong if you're asking for her.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
To me it does not look as if he is pushing her anywhere. She wants to do IT, but not Java or coding in general. He is trying to help find a solution.
As somebody else suggested, Project Management or Business Analist.
OTOH the information is extremely limited. What she should do is write dwn what does DOES like and what shoe does NIOT like. Brainstorm. Perhaps she lies to be more social and then she could perhaps help elderly about the Internet. Or she perhaps she wants to do more networking or she likes more tinkering with the hardware itself.
Does she really want to go into IT, or is that 'just the best option' to get a job? For all I kn ow she likes to give guided tours for tourists in her city.
So she should first see what she REALLY wants to do and what she really does NOT want to do. This is a process that needs a lot of thinking and hard work as you need to re-thik everything and it is hardest on the partner to accept that change.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
In the beginning, there were hobbyist magazines such as Byte and Compute!. Through the early 80's. I spent my lunch money on these, reading them cover to cover about a dozen times between issues. They were what would be considered today hard core, with pages of byte and machine languages to be typed in along with corresponding circuits to be soldered . Then computers started to become mainstream and content was slowly reduced to make room for more advertising I forget he name of it, but one issue of a computer magazine in maybe late 80's was over 1,000 pages of PC clone adverts. This was around the peak. Magazines, instead of be educational or a place where you could teach yourself a million dollar career, became a place where you could learn to change the color of your windows background or why windows was the best thing ever and so much better than various unnamed 'competitors'.
All the techy people who made the magazines interesting to nerds packed up and left like the Bar-ba-Loots. As the magazines tried to remake themselves into something else (usually Windows tips and Easter eggs), they declined and went out of business.
They were destined to die with the advent of the www, but their death was 15 years premature.
At what point do you think raising and monitoring a 3 yr. old ISN'T a full time job ???? I'd imagine the lady is looking forward to getting back to work and getting some rest. As for going back into computing and programming I can't blame her, the industry SUCKS. IT companies expect you to give them your entire life while they lowball your salary, try and get you to work overtime for free, biatch and moan when you take your vacation days, and generally take advantage of you as much as possible, while complaining all the time that you cost too much and always looking for a way to cut people rather than produce a superior product.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I do not know you financial situation at all. But my wife and I were in a similar situation a couple of years ago. And it basically boils down to two things:
1) You are parents. That means sometimes doing things you do not particularly like to make sure that your kids will have a reasonably stable upbringing - aka you can pay for stuff.
2) Regardless of what you do, it is easier to get the next job if you are employed.
No matter how you end up dealing with your situation, remember your wife. Help her, listen to her and be there. In a year or two you will have moved on, and this will just be another story to annoy your kids with.
Best of luck!
To be fair housewife isn't exactly equivalent to coal miner or roofer. On the other hand they likely made a decision that their child would be best served by being cared for and getting one on one attention from her rather than being tossed in a daycare.
You say your wife doesn't seem to be into dev anymore. Have you even THOUGHT about asking *HER* what *SHE* wants to do?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Programmers aren't engineers, or otherwise they'd all go bancrupt or be in prison for delivering faulty products in no time.
I can't speak for either of those professions, but I stayed home for about 6months with my two toddlers (honestly easier than one because they play together), and trust me, it isn't easy. If you actually parent/clean/cook and don't just screw around watching tv and facebooking all day it is pretty constant physical and mental labor. By the end of my run, I was ready to get back to programming. On top of that it really is a thankless job with criticism when you are having a bad day. At least when you are having a bad day programming, you just open up slashdot and slack for a few hours. Do that when you are at home and the house is trashed. Then it becomes mentally debilitating because it's a job that is never done and if you are consistently doing it 24/7 it all goes to hell.
In regards to coal miner or roofer, again I can't speak to those professions, I can say as a person who worked in construction for 5 years during school, I'd rather be doing that then chasing kids around (if only it was just that).
Oh and nap time is the time to get shit done, it aint rest time. There are no breaks. And when you are the SAHP your the primary care giver and the other person disconnects so instead of working 40hours a week like your spouse you work essentially 7 16hour days.
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
Gaa, your post was a PTSD trigger for me... make it stop! Oh wait, kids are grown. Ah, nevermind.
Beat her with a stick until she realizes its for the greater good. All must bow to the great diversity or be publicly shamed and beaten. We can have it no other way.
People like you are the problem with society today. The early years of a child's life are the most important for development of their personality for the rest of their life. Both parent's bond is needed.
FTFY
Ours tend to have graduated up through the ranks from dev, so to me it sounded like a fair suggestion.
However there's wide variance between companies - I've incredulously interviewed people unable to do a join..
So that nest egg... is it invested into stocks that require workers younger than you? Is it invested into government bonds which require taxpayers younger than you? Is it invested into banks which require people taking and paying loans who are younger than you? Are you going to spend them at stores staffed by people younger than you, with things made by people younger than you, and delivered by people younger than you? Without young'uns being born at a pretty consistent rate, you'd see some piss poor returns on your investment.
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
This is actually true. The looming problem of not enough young people is going to hit most developed countries pretty hard. Luckily we are largely immune to it in the US due to our high immigration rate. Of course immigration comes with it's own problems like crime and increased reliance on those same social programs... it might be preferable to increase our fertility rate in the middle and upper middle class.
You have never been in a european country, have you?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Last time I checked, Spain was in Europe.
Maternal leave is regulated by law.
Why the *fuck* - excuse my language - should she take less maternal leave than either is *offered* by the law or even *demanded* by the law?
Grow up, and understand that not all countries have a political "we don't care' attitude about families.
In Germany we have on top of forced maternal leave/vacation (demanded by law) an optional 12 month vacation for one parent, or of both take it, in total 14 months.
Everyone who takes that and does not take all 14 is basically dumb.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
He hasn't verified that she really did that. She could have been a really crappy mother and housekeeper for all we know.
If she is still into IT, then either planning/management stuff might be interesting (BA=Business Analyst), or probably operating, second or third level support might be interesting.
I once worked for a bank in operations, very well payed, but boring as I had not much to do. That was 90% Calypso related (a trading software) and SQL on Sybase and a little bit of Solaris/Unix work.
Bottom line I was there 8h a day and worked like 1h - 2h per day, you could read books or surf the internet.
Actually a sign of a smooth running data center that the people working there spend more time reading than "working".
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
A lot of people are commenting about her deserving a fulfilling career or about children needing a parent around and all sorts of stuff like that. That's all well and good, but I am assuming a little differently.
The fact that he is bothering with this at all makes me think it is possible that the family simply NEEDS the money. Maybe he is just being the financially responsible one and she is not.
Sure it would be great if she could find a new career which she would love. But.. if they NEED the money now and she already has the job experience, knowledge and skill in a specific, decently paying job market then maybe the responsible thing is for her to just suck it up and take one for the team.
As for staying home.. Hopefully if he is considering talking her into going back to work he has already thought about who will take care of the kids. Maybe they have grandparents around. Maybe, based on when she worked previously he expects the cost of day care to be worth it.
BTW, as a working Dad I can tell you that you can have a full time job and still have a ton of influence in raising your child. It's all in what you chose to do once you get home.
Anyway, he could just be being greedy but we don't know that. Maybe they need some more income to take care of their family.
He said she should have the power to choose a career for herself. Where is the inequality?
Before, she worked as a Java developer for around two years doing mostly Java Enterprise stuff. However, she is not very eager to go back to coding. I think she has the right mental skills to be a developer, but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general.
So let me re-phrase things for you: I think you have the right mental skills to be a good partner/husband, but you keep saying stupid things like that. Keep it up and and enjoy your divorce... :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
"Give a woman a child" - You're an asshole. A rational man doesn't give his wife a child, they share one. My daughter was the best thing that ever happened to me and I don't regret any 'inconvenience'. I pity any partner you end up with because you obviously only see them as that wallet you referred to.
I am a performance tester, where we, you guessed it, test the performance of applications and environments. You write scripts using specialized software (the major ones being LoadRunner or even Visual Studio Ultimate) to record the scripts. After the scripts are recorded you can go back and change the scripts to do specific functions, which is where the coding skills come in. It is definitely more interesting than programming, and in lots of jobs can be done via telecommuting.
For more info, check out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
If she is a decent writer, she could parlay her programming experience into a technical writing position. Many require programming experience. The hours and work environment are more like a regular job.
Yes, she could have. But per-emptively assuming that to be the case will get you called out.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
She could get into Android development but that's not something she could just jump right into, even with her Java background
You're projecting (or just trolling). The OP didn't indicate that her staying at home was causing "unfair stress". And plenty of us are not sexist enough to castigate a stay-at-home dad like you say you would.
Also, it's sad that you think that taking care of one's own children is not being a "productive adult", but rather being a "child".
So mine are 3 and 5 and nap time got renamed to "30m quiet time" after lunch, in their beds, which 70% of the time turns into 2 hour nap time. Luckily my wife and I switched our roles again so after work I cook/clean. Seeing both sides of the fields I no longer pull the "I'm too tired" shenanigans. If I do, I do "dad cooking" by ordering pizza and breaking out paper plates. Either way, my wife needs her evenings off. It really did take me being at home with my kids to see my wife as not lazy and just over burdened.
People, when you are late-20-something mid-30-something, you still need "me" time no matter who you are (I believe this applies no matter age, but there seems to be a perception to the contrary). As I said, I take the evenings after work with the child care so my wife can get her 'me' time, then Saturdays I go hike a mountain for some relaxing times, Sundays we do family events. Sometimes it's precleaning for the week, sometimes hiking a trail as a family and teaching the boys about plants and edible berries, sometimes it's city walking and shopping, sometimes it's doing nothing but catching a movie and detoxing. Either way, we are constantly trying to balance family, work, and ourselves time. And schedules are never locked, they are fluid. Sometimes I need to work late, sometimes I need to go have drinks with co-workers, sometimes she has Saturday plans. We work around it together.
Oh shit I've gone preachy, carry on... (my wayward son)
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
Luckily we are largely immune to it in the US due to our high immigration rate.
lol Far from it. http://mercatus.org/sites/defa... BTW, the "trust fund" is just special bonds currently held by the US Treasury. Those bonds are then sold along with the regular Treasury bonds that are issued to make up the regular "national debt".
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
No, she doesn't. He specifically said:
"but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general."
So yes, it does look like he's trying to push her. Most women I know take a few months of maternity leave, not a few years, so maybe that is why he is pushing, but he's pushing her in the wrong direction.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
So, yes, I am getting a raw deal because I am raising kids that will contribute to me and to you and you are getting a free ride by having no kids.
Are your kids using public education? Using public playgrounds? Are you getting a tax break for more dependents?
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
All her most recent experience is in childcare. You should take advantage of that and hire her as a full-time nanny.
I forget he name of it, but one issue of a computer magazine in maybe late 80's was over 1,000 pages of PC clone adverts.
Computer Shopper! I remember it well.
Slashdot ebbs and flows, and as old readers and commenter move on, they feel it is dying (it is really just their interest is dying) and new readers and commenter try to shift it's content. Paid trolls of course abound, more in registered users than in actual individuals but they tend to fail and give up but they always return.
It seems like that coder because they obviously enjoy coding fails to grasp that many coders abandon coding because they do not like it. Those coders go on to sales and support and they do a good job because of they coding background. This does not stop coders from looking down their nose at those ex-coders now sales people.
Likely his wife in learning how to interact with her child had picked up skills and abilities that will help her deal with the typical troublesome customer.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I'm still trying to understand what the heck Slow afterhyperpolarization is and how it affects parenting... but it sounds difficult! My condolences.
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
Position description of a Business Analist: When it comes to business time, someone who gets the big jobs through the back door.
Dear Santa Claus,
I have been exceptionally good this year so I think I deserve a wife for Xmas that like computers that:
1) Like BIG DATA problems.
2) Doesn't do Windows but loves little Penguin OS's.
3) Like to write C and JAVA. (No DOT Net please...this women should be respectable.)
PS: Please include instructions for the wife as I hear they do other things, not related to programming. Thank you.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
To be fair housewife isn't exactly equivalent to coal miner or roofer.
No. Quite right. It's harder, more exhausting, requires a broader range of skills, and isn't paid at all.
Hence, don't get married. Ever.
Wrong. You'll get screwed even worse if you're having a kid outside of marriage.
You don't want kids? Just as bad - you'll be considered married in CoP if you simply live with her for a long time[1]
Marriage with iron-clad prenup and no kids is currently the least screwed-over option for men. Take it.
[1]Length depends on jurisdiction
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Yes, she could have. But per-emptively assuming that to be the case will get you called out.
I've spent time at home with my kid when he was born. To be perfectly honest if she was in any way at all attending to the kid, cleaning/cooking as well as making sure that the child was properly stimulated, carefully watched, reasonably socialised, etc then she'd be dying to get back to work. The fact that she isn't so passionate about leaving the house say's that she was probably getting a lot of "me time' in those three years.
Hell, after a few months of stay-at-home, I was looking forward to working only 60-hour weeks. The fact that she appears to be wary of 40-hour weeks tells me that she is/was/ working significantly fewer hours than those as a stay-at-home mom. OP should clarify.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Pensions? Social Security? Really, at my age, I will never have a pension when I reach old age. It's what I can save away in my retirement funds and build into a nest egg.
I don't expect to receive any free govt. hand outs. Nor do I expect to need it.
If people stop having kids, have fewer kids, etc, then you must also expect to have no healthcare, no food and no life. The ones having kids today are ensuring that you'll have a doctor on call when you are older.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Ask Slashdot was useful once, but in the last few years it's just become an opportunity to abuse the questioner. Okay, sometimes the questions are really dumb, but how about we try to assume good faith and not expect them to write an essay covering every possible objection first? You know, kinda like Stack Exchange or something.
In fact, screw it, Slashdot is dying. I recommend asking the same question on Stack Exchange, you will get more helpful answers.
He is trying to get her to do something she (apparently) doesn't want to do - "she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general", but because that "something" aligns with your ideological and political interests you whine about abuse. What *is* borderline abusive is the fact that he is probably going to get her to do something she doesn't appear to have an interest in doing.
If you want your messages to be logically consistent with themselves you should rather be pointing out that artificially limiting her choices is sexist. You won't though. Your ideology is more important to you than fairness to women.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
This appears to be the writing style of the last psychiatrist.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
If she's skilled in java but doesn't love Java Enterprise stuff and the only jobs she can secure are related to Java Enterprise stuff, why not create her own company ? Maybe she can learn the Androïd SDK and do mobile apps ? Or whatever she wants as long as she's motivated by it. I have no idea of how favorable or hostile the spanish economic climate is for entrepreneurs, but this is the solution I applied to myself and I live in France of all places...
In general, finding a job with decent working conditions, reasonable colleagues and a moderate level of interest is the best you can hope for.
There seems to be a lot of entitlement with people these days. Not only does the world not owe you a living, it absolutely doesn't owe you an interesting one.
If you're living somewhere like Spain with high unemployment, you should be grateful for a half decent job, however "boring" it may be.
I don't suppose this will go down well with the special snowflake crowd on slashdot, but if she was some sort of passionate creative genius, by the time she reached the age where she's had 3 years maternity leave she'd already know it.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I'm getting downvoted because I said she should get off her ass adn go back to work? After THREE YEARS of maternity leave!? What in the actual fuck.
Apart from the US, most civilized countries allow a decent amount of maternity leave. At three years, toddlers are generally able to go to nursery and thus allow the carer the ability to work more or less full time.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Exactly. What all the misogynistic trolls here seem to forget is that the kid is both parents' responsibility. If you don't want to have to worry about one parent dropping out of full time work, don't have children.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Hence, don't get married. Ever.
But yes, she should get off her lazy ass and go back to work.
The couple decided between them to have the kid, you fucking moron.
The amount of teenage level fear of women and responsibility here is staggering.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Not weird. There is no rationale in having kids. My ma was angry when i told her that longvtime ago (as 18yo). I was tricked intonhaving kids by my wive. She just lie about taking the pilll. I love my kids but hate the bitch for ruining it for me.
You are an idiot.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Hell, after a few months of stay-at-home, I was looking forward to working only 60-hour weeks.
Being proud of regularly working more than 35-40 hours a week is a largely American thing.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I don't expect to receive any free govt. hand outs. Nor do I expect to need it.
As with affordable health care, that's what everyone says until they do, in fact, need it.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
What is a pension by the way? I thought that term disappeared in the 50's.
As with social security, most civilised societies decided some time after the Second World War to provide a safety net for the poor paid for out of taxation.
Yes, it's essentially socialist.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
No wonder Spain is quickly approaching economic collapse. A company would be stupid to hire a woman younger than 40 if they can get pregnant and leave for THREE YEARS.
The company is not paying her salary for those three years, so why should they care?
Unless you are in some incredibly fast moving and specific field with an unswervable career trajectory, taking three years out of work doesn't make a lot of difference. Someone who is 50 isn't necessarily any better at their job than someone who is 47 and had a three year break.
I know everyone on slashdot expects to work 24/7 and be a billionaire by the time they're 25, but in the real world most people trundle on quite happily at work despite having distractions like children, friends, family, hobbies and so on.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Your powers of psychological insight into a total stranger's marriage are incredible.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Hell, after a few months of stay-at-home, I was looking forward to working only 60-hour weeks.
Being proud of regularly working more than 35-40 hours a week is a largely American thing.
I was perhaps not being clear; let me retry: "After a few months of stay-at-home I was looking forward to working fewer hours each week, because even 60 hours incl. overtime a week is still less than staying at home with a small child."
FWIW, I'm a firm believer that I top out at 40 hours/week, and would very very rarely work extra hours.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
If a man chose to take 3 years off to raise a child and clean a house, we'd castigate him
No, you would castigate him. i don't see what the problem is, if the woman has a better paid or more interesting career.
You're just showing your insecurity.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I have absolutely no interest in technology, computers, programming or any of that nerdy stuff but I would inexplicably like to work in some sort of programming/developer/IT role anyway. Any suggestions?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Why don't you go out and get a job, and your wife can stay home and look after the baby.
He already has a job, genius, and it's pretty obvious his wife either wants or needs a job instead of staying at home looking after the kid(s).
Truly outstanding reading incomprehension.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The number of extremely overweight housewives in the US would disagree with your statement.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
"My wife doesn't want to do something, but I'm pretty sure I know what's good for her better than she does. How do I mansplain to her simple woman brain that she needs to get back in the kitchen and code me a recipe database?"
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
He's an idiot for not wanting to flush his life down the toilet? Having kids means MASSIVE unnecessary expenses (current average for middle class families in the US is ~ $250,000 PER KID - and that's NOT including college!) , no more free time, less sleep, a worse relationship (this is well documented by researchers and we even touched on it in Economics classes in college / grad school - for "normal" people who do the "born, go to school, get a job, get married, pop out some brats, slave away until retirement, die" routine have a U shaped curve for their level of happiness - it drops once the first kid is born and doesn't get back to pre-children levels until after the last kid is out of the house and you're retired), etc. Once you factor in the massive overpopulation of the planet as well, there is no rational reason to have kids.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Don't cave! I got a vasectomy in my 20's and when people get offended after finding out, I tell them "You only get one life - I intend to enjoy mine".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
You don't want kids? Just as bad - you'll be considered married in CoP if you simply live with her for a long time[1]
Not in the US. Almost all states in the US have eliminated "common law" marriage (though existing ones aren't nullified).
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The couple decided between them to have the kid, you fucking moron.
Sometimes. More times than not it's the woman saying "We're having a kid or I'm divorcing you and taking everything" or, more commonly, she just stops taking her birth control without telling him and then "Wow, I can't believe this happened!".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Those of us having children are the only ones helping you have all the social welfare programs (pensions and Social Security, etc.) after you stop working.
Ahahaha. First off, those programs are pyramid schemes and unsustainable. Secondly, if those of us who choose not to have kids weren't forced to subsidize you (schools, tax credits / deductions, etc), we could invest it and earn far more than we'd ever potentially see from mismanaged entitlement programs.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
I hate to break it to you, but that's not - nor has it ever been - how Social Security works. It's not a "fund" you pay into and collect from, it's literally straight up wealth redistribution from those who work to those who don't work.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Ah yes, and I'm sure you think a law forcing everyone onto insanely-high deductible plans (thus ensuring that you'll almost always pay everything out of pocket) is "affordable".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
She's acting like a child by expecting him to pay for her while she refuses to get a job. If the genders were reversed, you'd be telling "her" to divorced "his" lazy ass for refusing to get a job.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The fact that men don't even get the option of "sit on my ass and force my spouse to pay for everything".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
First, it is Spain. Second, I would think that a fat person chasing a toddler would be even more exhausted than a skinny person.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The absolute best was the period of time between the start of daycare and when my work ramped all the way back up. And frankly, then when the economic crisis hit and I found myself with half of the work. Lots of "me time" :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
First, do you really think the necessities of being a stay at home mom differ that much between first world (if Spain can still be called that) countries? Second, I think it's been a long time since you had kids - most toddlers these days are plopped in front of a TV / iPad while mommy goes on Facebook.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
So he has two children to support - the toddler and his wife. Yeah, I'm sure that'll work out wonderfully for the relationship.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
No I mean being Spanish she's probably not too fat.
TV has been a bad mommy's best friend for a long, long time. In the 80s we used to keep "TV logs" at school to show how much time we were watching and to try to encourage less viewing. There was even that infuriating period with "educational" VHS/DVDs for infants.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
He might be an idiot if we take the meaning of life to spread our genetic code. However, I have always personally felt to each there own, I was surprised by my first kid but I _we_ had been ready for a couple of years preparing for it. I've always wanted to be a father and to teach my skills to the next generation. I am hoping to raise my kids to be the next major breakthrough in the world.
But keep in mind, I have the ability to give my children quite a few opportunities that most often don't get. I was born living out of a truck and on a native american land reserve. I worked my ass up to programmer purely through passion as a kid (I didn't have a computer but the library did). I was obsessed with math and the principals of physics, computers were my practical outlet.
Which leads me to my last retort, choosing to not reproduce means potentially cheating the world out of it's next superstar. But again, those are odds not worth playing if you can't feed and cloth the child. So I go back to "to each there own".
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
The fact that men don't even get the option of "sit on my ass and force my spouse to pay for everything".
If you think there are not arrangements like that, you are mistaken.
Ad it should. But so should assuming the opposite! I just noted that a lot of commenters were taking her side when she very well could have been in the wrong.
One little poke and she'll be back on maternity leave.
Anybody want a peanut?