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Short Sleepers Might Be Benefiting From a DNA Mutation

An anonymous reader writes: As someone definitely not in that category, I envy people who can get along with little sleep. I have sometimes secretly believed they're exaggerating. Maybe not. The BBC reports on DNA research that says there might be a genetic basis for the very low sleep needs that some people have. The article says that UC-San Francisco researchers "compared the genome of different family members. They discovered a tiny mutation in a gene called DEC2 that was present in those who were short-sleepers, but not in members of the family who had normal length sleep, nor in 250 unrelated volunteers. When the team bred mice to express this same mutation, the rodents also slept less but performed just as well as regular mice when given physical and cognitive tasks." If it's stuck in the genes, though, I guess I'll still want more hours in a row if I don't want to start hallucinating. So how many hours do you need? I seem to get along with six or seven, but sleep past noon on the occasional weekend day. Update: 07/09 19:24 GMT by T : The latest Freakonomics podcast has some interesting things to say about the economics of sleep, and hours-per-night is a big part of it.

159 comments

  1. Five is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Five hours seems to do it for me, but I've had many partners where they couldn't function on any less than 7-8. Annoying case, it is...

    1. Re:Five is plenty by Dishwasha · · Score: 4, Informative

      When I was young I definitely required a full 8 hours of sleep. For some strange reason, almost immediately after I had my first child (I'm male) I developed the super-human ability to function quite well on 3-5 hours of sleep. Three years later I'm gradually regressing and currently seeing the need for 5-6 hours of sleep.

    2. Re:Five is plenty by Rasperin · · Score: 2

      4 - 5 hours, but sometimes I'll sleep 6-7. I kinda let my body dictate it's own rhythm and wake up when it tells me to (which kinda sucks because it typically alternates between 4:30am and 5:30am even though I don't need to be at work until 9am). So I wake up, catch up on my news in bed while I shake off the last bit of sleep then roll out of bed and do calisthenics. Shower, then walk into work. Because I have the time, so why not?

      --
      WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
    3. Re:Five is plenty by freak0fnature · · Score: 2

      ...says the guy with an espresso machine on his desk.

    4. Re:Five is plenty by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I need at least 7-8, but 9 is optimal.

    5. Re:Five is plenty by Quirkz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I had a similar discovery with kids, although I concluded it wasn't so much that I was functioning normally as I just didn't feel the pain or notice the fog anymore. As they've gotten older and I've started getting more sleep, that imperviousness to the discomfort of being short on sleep has disappeared again. (I can remember one night, rocking an angry child at 3 a.m. where I thought to myself, "I slept from 11 to 3, so that's 4 hours. Even if she takes forever to go back to sleep this is already a pretty good night!" Yes, I did immediately realize that sounded pretty absurd.)

      Outside of the newborn months, I like 8 if I can get it, but 7 is just fine. 6 leaves me tired, and anything under 5 makes me feel foggy. One very occasional night of 5 isn't too big of a deal as long as I get rest the next night, but two in a row of less than 5 and I feel pretty wrecked.

    6. Re:Five is plenty by AnontheDestroyer · · Score: 0, Troll

      Me too, man. My solution is to date one night owl and one early bird, then sex them both before and after I sleep. So I do sex like twice and then my donger is so big I can often fit in a nooner, but the gas bills for my sports car add up. I'm a millionaire but it's the principle of the matter. Annoying case is right.

    7. Re:Five is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If your like any of the other new parents I know, you only believed you were functioning quite well... To the rest of us you looked like a sobering idiot, Sure you didn't crap your pants or drool on yourself so compared to your first born you were a high functioning human, but compared to others your age without children you appeared to be a complete idiot.

    8. Re:Five is plenty by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      There is definitely some "new parent no sleep superpower" that develops when you have a baby that screams to be fed/changed/just because every 2 hours*.

      I would take "the night shift" and let my wife sleep. (Besides, if my wife tried rocking them to sleep, my kids would smell milk and decide it's feeding time. With me, no milk smell = time for sleep.) As my kids got older and slept through the night, we got more sleep. My oldest would wake up at 6am sharp every morning no matter what. School, vacation, weekend, he would wake us up at 6am to ask if it was ok to go to the living room and play. Now, he still does this, but at least knows enough not to wake us just to tell us he's leaving his bed now.

      * For non-parents, it's not every 2 hours. That would be too regular. It's more like an hour, then 20 minutes, then three hours (during which you're too worried that something is wrong to actually sleep), then 5 minutes, then 30 minutes, etc. You get your sleep in whatever tiny chunks you can.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    9. Re:Five is plenty by hodet · · Score: 2

      The Palm sisters?

    10. Re:Five is plenty by Moof123 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sadly, not in my case. If not for those first 3-4 months I would probably have a second kid, but I really became an exhausted wreck until things got more regular and fell into a (mostly) once a night feeding schedule. Our coping mechanism at that point was that we traded nights to get up with him and I was only a zombie every other day at work instead of a constant zombie/a-hole.

      The USA really needs to have much better maternity/paternity leave than we do. 2 weeks (burning through all my meager vacation) was not enough. My wife at least was able to get some cat-naps during the day, not so much for me (no, she didn't have it easier, but she did get more sleep from weeks 2-12). It is pretty darn hard to come home after working all day as a zombie and have to take over because your wife is an exhausted wreck, all knowing that the cycle won't have a break until the weekend.

    11. Re:Five is plenty by eulernet · · Score: 2

      I use different sleeping cycles.
      During the workdays, from monday to friday, I sleep between 3 and 4 hours, but I meditate during 2 hours and I don't nap.
      During the weekends, I sleep from 5 to 7 hours with some napping, because I meditate a lot less (probably 15 minutes).

      Several years ago, I was sleeping 6-7 hours every night, but I was always tired.
      I started meditation 4 years ago, and everything changed from this moment: I'm never tired, I listen to my body (no abuse), and I have a deep sense of joy.

      Deep meditation is equivalent to sleep.

    12. Re:Five is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not age related at all for me.

      But I've discovered I could function with no problems on 4 hours of sleep for months, or 9-10 on others. Never in between. Sleeping only 5 or 6 always left me more tired than I was before going to bed.

      Problem is, there's a creative side to my job, and the lack of sleep is severely felt.

    13. Re:Five is plenty by Serenissima · · Score: 1

      I read a long time ago (so, I don't have a source and I don't even know if it's right) that your REM sleep cycles are around 90 minutes long. If you wake up in the middle of a cycle, you're super tired and groggy. If you hit it between cycles, it's fairly easy to wake up. If you vary both the time you go to bed and the time you wake up, you may be able to hit between those cycles. For a while, I had the stride set at going to bed at 10, and naturally waking up about 15-25 minutes before my alarm went off. Then I started reading Game of Thrones again and stay up well past 11 reading. Now I've been barely able to wake up when my alarm goes off. So, the sleep cycle thing at least FEELS like it's true! :D

      --
      Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. But light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
    14. Re:Five is plenty by weilawei · · Score: 1

      My sleep schedule tends to rotate if I don't have any fixed obligations (say, on vacation). I'm naturally a night person (worked overnights for years and really enjoyed that), but I tend to have a daytime awake phase and a nighttime awake phase.

      With my current work, I'll go to sleep at 0000-0130, wake up from 0530-0630, work until 1600, come home, nap from 1900-2100, read the news, putz around, and start all over again. One day out of the week, I work from 0730 to 2000, with a couple of 30 minute breaks at 1230 and 1600.

      If I don't have any obligations, I tend to sleep 4-5 hours when I get tired, wake up, and work for 6-8 hours, and then go back to sleep and do it again. This causes my sleep/awake times to rotate around, which I don't mind, but other people think I'm crazy. I'll also tend to wake up with the sun and go to sleep when it gets dark, which causes me to be awake much longer during the summer than the winter.

      4 hours of sleep is enough to function on, but I prefer 5-6 hours if I have to be awake for an extended period, need to do heavy thinking or strenuous work. I can't sleep for 8 hours at a stretch. I'll just keep waking up every half hour.

    15. Re:Five is plenty by weilawei · · Score: 1

      Er, one day a week, I work from 0730 to 2200. Stupid typos.

    16. Re:Five is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your like any of the other new parents I know, you only believed you were functioning quite well... To the rest of us you looked like a sobering idiot, Sure you didn't crap your pants or drool on yourself so compared to your first born you were a high functioning human, but compared to others your age without children you appeared to be a complete idiot.

      Let's change the context:

      When I was 25, I worked out hard at the gym and ate right to look good. Now that I'm fifty five, I've come to realize that I'm more attractive than ever, even though I've stopped going to the gym, gained 75 pounds, lost my hair and a few teeth while enjoying off-brand import Snickers bars.

      The kid didn't make you super human, it made you delusional.

    17. Re: Five is plenty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you recommend any resources to get started meditating?

    18. Re:Five is plenty by pepty · · Score: 1

      Actually 7-8 is optimal. More or less than that is associated with increases in all-cause mortality.

    19. Re:Five is plenty by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I have been diagnosed with severe chronic insomnia, I have had it my whole life. I stay awake for days and then sleep just a few hours though I sometimes crash hard and sleep or a whole 24+ hours (not in a while though). My problem is that if I wake up then I am awake. I had a hell of a time getting to sleep and if something wakes me up just a short time later I am done sleeping. I spend a lot of time with my eyes closed but fully awake. It is good for introspection but the mind dwells on some pretty stupid things that can not be changed.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    20. Re: Five is plenty by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    21. Re:Five is plenty by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      Five hours seems to do it for me, but I've had many partners where they couldn't function on any less than 7-8. Annoying case, it is...

      That's about what I get. I don't know if it's genetic or just environmental but my siblings, my mother, and many other relatives all get little sleep. My mother said she was an insomniac - but she insisted on going to bed at a "normal" time, getting up early and then complaining of lying awake all night. That meant that she was always getting up through the night to cook, clean and read - which may have created a pattern in her children's sleep habits (the washing machine was right next to our bedroom wall). The rest of us just say "polyphasic".

      My aunties, and uncle, and my grandfather were all "nappers". Likewise my brothers and I. My sisters are "insomniacs". The go to bed when their husbands do and complain of difficulty sleeping - or take sleeping pills.

      Yeah - it can play hell with relationships, but it's not something I have a choice about. I can either stay up very late and wake early, which I prefer not to do; or do what suits me best when life allows it - go to sleep when I'm tired (and fall asleep instantly) and get up when I wake up (usually about an hour and a half later). Sleeping in a single block leaves me feeling sluggish in the evening, napping leaves me feeling sharp all the time. My brothers and I all agree that's the main reason we've never liked working for other people - because it forces a sleep cycle on us we don't like.

    22. Re:Five is plenty by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      I have been diagnosed with severe chronic insomnia, I have had it my whole life. I stay awake for days and then sleep just a few hours though I sometimes crash hard and sleep or a whole 24+ hours (not in a while though). My problem is that if I wake up then I am awake. I had a hell of a time getting to sleep and if something wakes me up just a short time later I am done sleeping. I spend a lot of time with my eyes closed but fully awake. It is good for introspection but the mind dwells on some pretty stupid things that can not be changed.

      Have you tried just going to bed when you're tired, and getting up when you wake? Or won't your lifestyle allow it? It does mean changing a few other things - like when you eat and the size of your meals (3 -4 smaller meals eaten shortly before sleeping).

    23. Re:Five is plenty by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I am retired so, yeah, I pretty much sleep when I want to sleep. I probably get four hours out of every day on a good day. The thing is, I really do not get tired until after that day is over. Even then when I do get tired and go to bed I end up sitting there, thinking, trying to ignore everything. I meditate sometimes, that helps at times but not always. Sometimes just a short spell of meditation makes me feel refreshed and then I can not sleep again for another 20 - 30 hours.

      I did a 3 day sleep study at a specialist's facility out on the other coast. They prescribed me a bunch of sleeping pills. Those just make me more tired and I do not sleep. Then when I do sleep they make me go down for a little longer and I wake up as groggy as a bear coming out of hibernation. I guess I also have sleep apnea and even the sleep I do get is of low quality as I do not get to enter the REM stage very often or remain there long. I go as long as a couple of minutes without breathing and then breath again. A CPAP did not help me sleep - too damned noticeable and uncomfortable.

      So I do not take any medicine for it. I used to drink and I did a lot of opiates (I do neither any more) and those put me out. I ended up horribly addicted and needed rehabilitation and am still on Suboxone today but that does not make me sleep. (I had a huge tolerance.) I did opiates for years but was a functioning addict for most of forty five years. It started at 13, I got cluster headaches and they gave me codeine. I have used daily until just recently and that includes Fentanyl extraction for IV use. I functioned fine until I retired then I went out and had a hell of a good time. I was already drinking by that age. Ah well. I had a hell of a lot of fun and what else is life for? Not many can honestly say their life is complete and they are content. I am lucky.

      Anyhow, so no... I do not sleep. I can usually tell when my body is going to want to sleep and I will drink a couple of chamomile teas in the hours leading up to it. Then I just crash when I crash. I am not scheduled to do a whole lot so it is not as if it effects me much any more.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    24. Re:Five is plenty by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      I am retired so, yeah, I pretty much sleep when I want to sleep. I probably get four hours out of every day on a good day. The thing is, I really do not get tired until after that day is over. Even then when I do get tired and go to bed I end up sitting there, thinking, trying to ignore everything.

      The active mind bit is familiar - when I used to try and sleep in a single block I had that problem. The only way to get around it and avoid involuntary all-nighters (sometimes two in a row) was to exhaust myself mentally and physically, ensure that mental stimulation (conversation and noise) as well as bright light was avoided for an hour before bed (which didn't make relationships easier). Any light at night was enough to make sleep difficult.

      I meditate sometimes, that helps at times but not always. Sometimes just a short spell of meditation makes me feel refreshed and then I can not sleep again for another 20 - 30 hours.

      Sounds similar - the biggest problem I found with that was loss of productivity. Instead I try and spend a couple of hours a day, in smaller chunks, doing mindless tasks. Household chores, driving the tractor, walking, or weeding the garden all seem to help (active meditations?) - anything I can task to muscle memory while I concentrate on breathing to demand. I do feel benefits but don't know if it comes from breaking up longer tasks or the meditation process.

      I did a 3 day sleep study at a specialist's facility out on the other coast. They prescribed me a bunch of sleeping pills. Those just make me more tired and I do not sleep. Then when I do sleep they make me go down for a little longer and I wake up as groggy as a bear coming out of hibernation. I guess I also have sleep apnea[...]

      Everything but the apnea is similar - though as I explained in an earlier post, I have a polyphasic family history.

      So I do not take any medicine for it. I used to drink and I did a lot of opiates (I do neither any more) and those put me out. I ended up horribly addicted and needed rehabilitation and am still on Suboxone today but that does not make me sleep. (I had a huge tolerance.) I did opiates for years but was a functioning addict for most of forty five years. It started at 13, I got cluster headaches and they gave me codeine. I have used daily until just recently and that includes Fentanyl extraction for IV use. I functioned fine until I retired then I went out and had a hell of a good time. I was already drinking by that age. Ah well. I had a hell of a lot of fun and what else is life for? Not many can honestly say their life is complete and they are content. I am lucky.

      Apart from a relatively brief period of my late teens (foolishly thinking I was Keith Richards) I've steered clear of opiates - unless you count a dozen or so opium sessions over almost 40 years (when in places that offer it). Cannabis and booze was another story - that I did use for a long time to help me sleep. Cannabis (indicas) worked well - still does, but it's a waste of good weed (and I prefer the stimulation of sativas) if you sleep through most of the effects (and makes it difficult to deal with business at all hours), and it leaves me stoned the next morning. I still enjoy both, just not as regularly, in the same amounts, or for the same purposes. I got selfish in my old age and prefer to only enjoy the best - and when I do I don't want to compromise the enjoyment by doing so when I have to do other things better done with a clear head - especially the next day.

      Anyhow, so no... I do not sleep. I can usually tell when my body is going to want to sleep and I will drink a couple of chamomile teas in the hours leading up to it. Then I just crash when I crash. I am not scheduled to do a whole lot so it is not as if it effects me much any more.

      That's um, relatively good then. I guess I'm lucky that I've found a way not to be tired anymore. No more s

  2. I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by turp182 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I really can't sleep more than 6 hours. And I usually wake up automatically (before my alarm clock) around 4AM. I've been this way for decades (back in high school I could sleep in).

    If I get less than 5 then I suffer that day. It seems like my sleep needs are just being met, and if I fall behind at all then I feel like crap that day and need to go to bed early that night (and then I just wake up earlier the following morning, but rested).

    I perform best, by far, before noon, but that could be the nature of the work (mind grinding).

    I do enjoy a nap in the afternoon when I can get it (Saturday afternoon sometimes). There's actually not much nicer than a good afternoon nap.

    --
    BlameBillCosby.com
    1. Re:I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would be nice if North American business instituted "siesta time" across the board. A nice 20-40 minute nap after lunch would really improve productivity in the afternoons.

    2. Re:I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by turp182 · · Score: 1

      Yep, we are a nation of "afternoon yawners".

      And of course most of us need additional caffeine in the afternoon to not yawn too much.

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    3. Re:I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I'm not getting much exercise, doing repetitive tasks (non-creative), and watching TV in the evening, I need a lot less sleep (5-6 hours).

      As soon as I do anything that tires out muscles or I have to think, I need 7-8.

      I would guess (for me) it's a function of how much recovery, maintenance, and repair my body needs.

    4. Re:I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by corychristison · · Score: 1

      I'm in a similar boat. 5-6 hours seems to be perfect. I typically go to bed between Midnight and 1AM. My alarm is set for 6:30AM, some mornings I am up before it, sometimes I hit the snooze button for that extra 7 minutes it gives me.

      There is the odd time I go to bed between 3AM and 5AM, and still up before 7:00AM. I will admit those days are not a walk in the park, but I certainly don't go about my day like a zombie. I'm still functioning and get my work done, though I may be a little more irritable than normal.

      For what it's worth, I'm in my mid-twenties. It's possible I'm still too young to value sleep.

    5. Re:I'm a short sleeper (6 hours) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before modern lights we used to get up in the middle of the night for an hour or two. It sounds like you have a natural sleeping pattern but are staying awake rather than going back to sleep (too much light, too much thinking, too much activity, or out of habit). Napping roughly 12 hours after that early morning wake period is normal too.

  3. 6 hours for mental refresh, by Aero77 · · Score: 1

    6 hours for mental refresh, longer if after a full day of physical activity.

  4. you are not superhuman by faway · · Score: 1

    geeks these days are always trying to pretend that they're somehow special. it's simply not true.

    1. Re: you are not superhuman by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      Statistically some will be "special". Just because you are not doesn't mean they won't be.

    2. Re: you are not superhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Statistically some will be "special". Just because you are not doesn't mean they won't be.

      Oh I'm "special" all right. Just not in any way that could be construed as positive.

    3. Re: you are not superhuman by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Being the smartest kid in the shortest bus doesn't make one "special" all on its own. Now, also being captain of the AV squad... now THAT is special.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re: you are not superhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Join the club, you anonymous pussy cat.

    5. Re: you are not superhuman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah? I never needed much sleep, even as a teen. 4 hours would do it. The other kids would cry about only getting 7. Wimps.

      Suck on that, you extroverted feeler. Your kind will be replaced via attrition. Fear us!

  5. No fewer than 7 by magsol · · Score: 1

    ...and 8+ is ideal. But between being a full-time developer and running marathons, I figure whether it's due to the lack of a genetic mutation or simple necessity is, bluntly, irrelevant. If I get fewer than 7 hours of sleep, I suck at everything, physical or mental.

    --
    "I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
    1. Re:No fewer than 7 by magsol · · Score: 1

      But I should mention that I absolutely envy colleagues of mine who regularly function on 5-6 hours of sleep. I could get quite a lot more done with the extra 2-3 hours.

      --
      "I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
    2. Re:No fewer than 7 by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      What this sort of study can't tell you is if those mice actually do something useful with their additional wakefulness. Look for escape routes? Solve puzzles for treats?

      Or just go round and round on the wheel.

      Think about it for a moment. Careful what you ask for....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  6. Re:Acquired skill by itamihn · · Score: 1

    I agree to this. Until high school I used to sleep 7 to 8 hours every night. During my bachelor studies I was studying, working part time, and doing some graphics programming until late at night. After a few years like that, I got used to sleeping 4 to 7 hours per night. Now I can't go to bed before 2AM, or I'll be like O_O

  7. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Disagree. I was in the military so the early mornings and short sleep schedule were part of the job. I never got used to it even after years.

  8. Nine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I have fewer than nine, I'm always groggy getting up, and it's slow going for the first half hour or so. With six to eight, I'm okay once I get going, but I feel pretty tired getting out of bed.

  9. NFL coaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    NFL coaches are legends for being workaholics, and many seem to get ridiculously small amounts of sleep. What to they do with their time? A lot of it is spent reviewing game videos of their own team and those of opponents, very slowly with lots of stop action, to assess as precisely as possible the strengths and weaknesses of different players, team units, and schemes. Then they have to come up with plays and new variations of plays, and new practice drills. And of course, people management.

  10. Typically, 6 hours. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But that's because I can't help tinkering with all my gadgets around the house.

  11. I think it mostly comes down to discipline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I prefer 7-8 hours a night.

    That being said... In college, I learned how to survive on little sleep. I kept doing this all through my 20s and 30s. Now I've gotten to the point where it's physically draining, but going wthout sleep is mostly a matter of willpower and caffeine. I start hallucinating after about 24 hours without sleep, but this can be solved by taking small 5-10 minute naps from time to time. I found out the hard way that eventually you burn out from going without sleep for long periods of time, but it doesnt' require special genes.

    These days, I just do a better job of setting expectations and agreeing to longer project schedules so I can get the job done without killing myself.

    1. Re:I think it mostly comes down to discipline by basscomm · · Score: 1

      I prefer 7-8 hours a night.

      That being said... In college, I learned how to survive on little sleep. I kept doing this all through my 20s and 30s. Now I've gotten to the point where it's physically draining, but going wthout sleep is mostly a matter of willpower and caffeine. I start hallucinating after about 24 hours without sleep, but this can be solved by taking small 5-10 minute naps from time to time. I found out the hard way that eventually you burn out from going without sleep for long periods of time, but it doesnt' require special genes.

      These days, I just do a better job of setting expectations and agreeing to longer project schedules so I can get the job done without killing myself.

      I also need 7-8 hours of sleep a night. I've tried getting by on less, and I can do it for a few days, but I eventually need to repay that sleep debt. Caffeine does nothing for me, so fighting tiredness that way is a non-starter.

      --
      http://crummysocks.com
    2. Re:I think it mostly comes down to discipline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds more like it mostly comes down to *stimulants* - think how much more productive you'd be with crystal meth :P

    3. Re:I think it mostly comes down to discipline by codeButcher · · Score: 2

      Sounds more like it mostly comes down to *stimulants* - think how much more productive you'd be with crystal meth :P

      I still think melatonin and serotonin are some of today's most underappreciated stimulants... All-natural, too.

      --
      Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
    4. Re:I think it mostly comes down to discipline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  12. But does it favor natural selection? by dorpus · · Score: 1

    People who don't sleep much may annoy their partners and have fewer babies. Similarly, there is no selective pressure against Parkinsonism, diabetes, or heart disease, since people rarely die from them before having children.

  13. Poster Needs More SLOW sleep by Yergle143 · · Score: 1

    ...genetic basis for the very SLOW sleep needs...
    Please get more sleep...and I can recommend the fast kind.

    1. Re:Poster Needs More SLOW sleep by timothy · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that was a typo, and Yes, perhaps it was generated by a lack of sleep ;) I've fixed that now, and Mr. Anonymous can complain if he meant "slow" instead.

      --
      jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  14. Sleeping is different. by skgrey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been a different sleeper for years. I used to think I was an insomniac; I would have trouble with not being ready for bed, then would lay there for hours, then finally get a few hours of sleep as I thought I *had* to get 8 hours to be healthy. I averaged between 3 and 5 hours of sleep a night for many years. It was cyclical though; sometimes it would be multiple weeks of 3, then multiple weeks of 5. I used to get upset that I wouldn't get 8 hours of sleep ever. I was still dreaming, and waking up recharged and refreshed.

    I've learned over time that it's almost impossible for me to get 8 hours of sleep unless I've worked for multiple days in a row. I've done data center moves or had a crisis with production where I was up for somewhere around 48 hours or more, but when I went to sleep I would only sleep 8 hours before my body would wake me. I would then sleep again "for the night" in a shorter range of time (something like 16 hours of being up rather 20), but then I'd re-regulate after that.

    I do kind of wish I slept more though. I don't think my brain feels as awake as it could if I had slept more.

    1. Re:Sleeping is different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I can't sleep much at night (only a few hours), but can sleep all day. As I got older this became more and more debilitating until I had to start working my own hours. Many sleep problems are probably people incompatible with 9-5 schedules and waking to the terror of alarms going off (tigers in the cave).

    2. Re:Sleeping is different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I do kind of wish I slept more though. I don't think my brain feels as awake as it could if I had slept more."

      I hear you there. I probably sleep between 4 and 6 hours per night before I just wake up. I almost always feel like I need more sleep, but if I try, I can't get it. The weird part though is, a little caffeine, and I'm talking like the amount you get from a cup of green tea, and I do feel fully awake for like 6 or 7 hours.

      My dad and brother are the same way.

    3. Re:Sleeping is different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever done manual labor for a full day (8-12 hours)? If so, did you sleep well then? Summers in college when I worked construction is probably the best sleep I've had due to just plain being tired. Sitting in a chair all day certainly makes it harder to fall asleep at night (at least for me).

  15. Different even in my own family by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I might require seven hours, but my younger brother needs twelve.

  16. I'd trade with my cat... by enterix · · Score: 4, Funny

    16hrs of napping a day plus athletic abilities of felines? Plus aren't we all more happy dreaming anyway? There was one of scenes in Inception that group of sleep drug subjects preferred dream reality from awake one... what's reality anyway...

    1. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      If that's the case (happier asleep than awake), you need to find a way to improve your life. Seriously.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you? suicide prevention??

    3. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by enterix · · Score: 1

      "If that's the case (happier asleep than awake), you need to find a way to improve your life"

      What are having only zombie nightmares?

      Thank you for misreading... that was supposed to be zen metaphor... you've just spoiled with your correct but very flat existential point of view :) but wow! you got 5 score for that!

    4. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What are having only zombie nightmares?

      Good dreams, if you ask me! Pass the shotgun.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by enterix · · Score: 1

      > Pass the shotgun.....

      People who sleep happy and have good dreams do not pick shotgun fights with strangers for no reason. Why are you so against people who like to sleep longer and nap happily as a cat?

      When 900 years old, you reach Sleep as good, you will not.

    6. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I do not pick shotgun fights for no reason. I will not shotgun fight you........unless you are a zombie.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not a zombie. I am a zombie. Bring it on.

    8. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      zombie.

      I really enjoy our exchange... I would write something, but what's the point... you just gonna ignore it, pick the word zombie, and make some other off-topic mildly-funny comment.

      I'll give you back your shotgun and all the ammo -- have fun, just clean up after you done.

    9. Re:I'd trade with my cat... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      have a good sleep

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  17. Short sleeper by Dave+Hodgins · · Score: 1

    I rarely sleep more than 4 hours at a time, though I'll often have a nap for an hour or two in the afternoon.

  18. Five to six hours by BabaChazz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I discovered that when I tried to sleep the eight that was supposedly required, I would either wake up at 0300 and not be able to get back to sleep for an hour and a half, or I'd sleepwalk. I read a book a few decades back that suggested that by gradually decreasing your nightly sleeping time, you could find the amount of sleep you really needed (it was some decades back, sorry I can't remember the title now) and I tried what it suggested. Found that I'd wake up decently rested at 7 if I went to bed at 2.

    On weekends, I wake up at 8 without the alarm clock. Weekdays, even holidays and when I forget the alarm clock, I'm up at 7. Habit.

    My wife hates it.

    1. Re:Five to six hours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard something about sleeping in two 3-4 hour segments with six to eight hours awake in between, instead of sleeping for an entire 8 hours at once. I think it is very naturalized behavior for humans to associate night time with the right time for sleeping, but it seems like we are not suited to sleep an entire eight hours either.

  19. Sleep is when the transcription takes place by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
    I think our brains have enough short term memory to go through a day chasing zebra in the African plains. And when we sleep the short term memory gets transcribed into long term memory. Brain is quite plastic and we have stretched it to last a whole day in this modern lifestyle.

    Short sleep might restore the muscles and other organs and prep them for another day. But "doing physical and cognitive tests" as well as well slept mice says nothing about the long term memory of such short sleepers.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Sleep is when the transcription takes place by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      I think sleep allows the brain to repeat experiences, but otherwise isnt all that special as far as learning. For those that don't know, the primary learning methodology of the biological brain is known to be hebbian which can be summed up quite succinctly as "neurons that fire together wire together." Sleep allows experiences to be repeated, increasing the strengths between neurons that otherwise rarely fire outside of those experiences.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Sleep is when the transcription takes place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably much more importantly, during sleep the body is much more efficient at flushing away metabolic waste products. Perhaps sleep is principally the result of needing to attend to the molecular-environmental needs of a very complex and very active organ. Over time evolution then found various ways to make maximal use of that period without adversely effecting the principal function.

      Sleep might not be the _only_ way to achieve that result, but it might be the most economical in the general case, all other environment pressures considered.

  20. I'm getting 8 hrs, but my body wants 9 - 10 hrs by Walking+The+Walk · · Score: 1

    I have three little kids, the youngest not yet one year, so I'm unable to get all the sleep I'd like. I make do with about 8 hours a night, sometimes only 6 or 7. But on the very rare occasion that I'm away from the kids, I naturally sleep between 9 and 10 hours (and feel much more awake in the morning.)

    Of interest might be my kids' sleep times: 9 hours for the six year old, 10 hours for the four year old, and 7 hours plus multiple naps for the infant.

    --
    A recursive sig
    Can impart wisdom and truth
    Call proc signature()
  21. No amount of practice will allow me to short sleep by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Like most abilities, getting only a few hours of sleep and feeling fine the next day is an acquired skill.

    Disagree. I'm fairly disciplined in my sleeping habits these days but if I get less than 7-8 hours I am absolutely going to feel it and my performance will degrade some. I won't be a vegetable but I won't be feeling fine either.

    Yes, it requires time, discipline and willpower, but blaming your genes for being a lazy bum is not an excuse.

    Good sleep hygiene requires some discipline but no amount of discipline is going to let me get away with sleeping only 4-6 hours per night. Some people clearly can including some in my family but speaking only for myself I cannot get away with that little sleep for more than a day or two and I feel the effects immediately. I know for a fact that most people need more sleep than just a few hours and no amount of discipline will change this.

  22. Re:Acquired skill by coldsalmon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Like most abilities, getting only a few hours of sleep and feeling fine the next day is an acquired skill. Yes, it requires time, discipline and willpower, but blaming your genes for being a lazy bum is not an excuse.

    This would seem to be refuted by all of the literature I've ever read on the subject, as well as my own experience. I used my discipline and willpower to sleep less, and all it did was make me a low-functioning zombie at work. After a few months, I had to give up and get my 8 hours every night.

    But even assuming that you can train yourself to be a more efficient sleeper, there must be a limit to that as well, which may vary by person. So some people may "enjoy" 8 hours but only "need" 5, and others may "enjoy" 10 and "need" 8.

    I will go along with the idea that you can get better sleep quality and thus require less total sleep, but there is still a wide genetic variation in the amount of good-quality sleep that particular individuals need. Even if I get perfect-quality sleep, I still need 8 hours. I wish I didn't but at this point in my life I know better than to get less. Based on what I've read, there are other people who only need 6 hours or less of perfect-quality sleep, and I can never be like them. I'm no expert on the subject, but I've never read anything that seriously claims you can train yourself to need less sleep (as opposed to increasing the quality of your sleep).

  23. Genetic, backed up by research by Overzeetop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The military has studied this quite a bit, and there has been no way to achieve a statistically significant reduction in sleep requirements over long term studies.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Genetic, backed up by research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      their sample size is too small

      They have an entire fucking army that reports for duty every single day at 0fuckyou hours.

    2. Re:Genetic, backed up by research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, because the study results don't line up with your delusion, the study must be flawed.

    3. Re:Genetic, backed up by research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is coming from one idiot on the internet who's got a single entirely anecdotal piece of evidence...

    4. Re:Genetic, backed up by research by AnontheDestroyer · · Score: 1

      Don't worry...I got it. :-)

  24. 7.5 is ideal, 6 for several days by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    7.5 is about perfect for me on an ongoing basis. I'm just as productive / alert after 6 for periods of a 5-10 days, but then it starts catching up with me. My wife needs 9, and anything less than 7 for more than a single night is asking for trouble.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  25. Interesting sociological study by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    1) Pick some rare advantageous trait (e.g. short sleepers, super multitaskers)
    2) Post a story about it on Slashdot
    3) Observe the large number of posters who claim to have the trait

    Optionally:

    4) Cross-correlate these posters against list of posters claiming to possess a different rare advantageous trait in previous Slashdot discussions

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Interesting sociological study by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

      Throw in some control traits that are weird, but not "advantageous" per se. For example, I am a supertaster. Sure, technical it makes it much harder to poison me. But it also means I am surrounded by food that has been over-seasoned for my taste and I have to keep telling people "NO SAUCE", and I can't enjoy a 'good' beer, wine, coffee, etc.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    2. Re:Interesting sociological study by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      I am a supertaster.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    3. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Pick some rare advantageous trait (e.g. short sleepers, super multitaskers)
      2) Post a story about it on Slashdot
      3) Observe the large number of posters who claim to have the trait

      Optionally:

      4) Cross-correlate these posters against list of posters claiming to possess a different rare advantageous trait in previous Slashdot discussions

      5) Slashdot story get clicked and shared by all those who aspire for said rare advantageous trait
      6) Profit!

    4. Re:Interesting sociological study by AnontheDestroyer · · Score: 1

      You're leaving out the part about my 12 inch wiener.

    5. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's weird. I seem to have every super-human ability ever brought up on Slashdot. I also have a wicked snarky sense of humor and am prone to being racist/sexist.

      Sincerely,

      A. Coward

    6. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My trait is being exactly normal to mess with study results. I require precisely the recommended daily amount of sleep.

    7. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      My voice is not affected by helium.

    8. Re:Interesting sociological study by AshFan · · Score: 0

      Cant you see this for what it is?! Lets see... 1) Post about a mutation 2) catalog everyone who admits to having it 3) Present this list to the public, creating a huge scare 4) Then notify the public of other super mutants, such as baldness, color blindness, red hair 5) After mass hysteria, declare martial law 6) Get the mutant registration act passed Its all Halliburton you fools... HALLIBURTON!!! Its the government tricking you fools into being enteremutant registration act!

    9. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the problem with this particular one though. I don't think living on less than 8 hours of sleep per night, and in some cases significantly less than 8, is particularly rare. Every male in my family rarely sleeps through the night, and I know a non-trivial number of people who are the same.

    10. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people need only 6 hours (myself included). The study says the "special" people need only 4. Now, that is outside of my abilities.

    11. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then update the article afterwards stating that individuals with the trait also are rather idiotic, although they claim to be and feel that they are intelligent. ;-) Watch the mayhem ensue.

    12. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cannot breathe air. Only helium.

    13. Re:Interesting sociological study by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Haha, as a fellow supertaster I hear that one -- I've got to where I say "no sauce" as if by reflex, and dislike a lot of "good" stuff as being the wrong kind of bitter. OTOH, I have often refused to eat something that tasted wrong to me, and meanwhile my fellow diners are busy acquiring food poisoning.

      As to sleep, dogs vary wildly in their sleep needs, but it's most obvious with pre-weaning puppies. Most sleep a lot; some slow-developers do almost nothing but sleep. But a few are up and at-em very early in life, and sleep very little then or ever. The most freakish I've seen was active 8 hours a day already by age 2 weeks, and her physical development was miles ahead of normal across the board. (Normal 2 week old puppies can at best stagger around for half an hour before they get tired and fall down asleep; she could already *gallop* back and forth, with good coordination and balance, for hours on end.)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    14. Re:Interesting sociological study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5) Drive a 1993 Escort Wagon.

  26. So how many hours do you need? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I need about 1-2 more hours than I get.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  27. Jeb Bush Supports Gene Mutation for US Workers by Overzeetop · · Score: 0, Troll

    No sense in missing an opportunity to get those lazy Americans a few extra hours of productivity, amirite?

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Jeb Bush Supports Gene Mutation for US Workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Governor Jeb Bush rigged the Florida elections in 2000 to give the presidency to his dunce brother. Proven fact... uncovered by Greg Palast and never reported on the US mainstream media.

  28. Exactly 8 by neminem · · Score: 1

    Down to the minute - I find I'm most rested if I sleep *exactly* 8 hours. I can go a long time on 7 before it starts catching up to me (which is good, because that's how much I often get these days, because my brain has now decided that I really want to get up when the sun comes out even though no I totally don't), but I'm happiest if I can consistently get 8, exactly.

    1. Re:Exactly 8 by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      To time it that well, you must be able to go to sleep pretty quickly? I know there are people like that out there who can lie down and be out in less than 5 minutes, but it's alien to me. I'd say 15 is a minimum, 30-45 minutes is typical before I actually fall asleep. On rare occasions when I'm desperately tired and start to fall asleep in less than 5 minutes, the rapidity of descent actually startles me and tends to wake me up.

    2. Re:Exactly 8 by Quince+alPillan · · Score: 1

      I'd say probably.

      I'm the type of person that can be asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow (less than a minute, tops). I also sleep like the dead and will sleep through anything, including being physically assaulted and natural disasters, until morning.

  29. last time i researched natural human sleep cycles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was amazed to learn that before the advent of artificial lighting the common human sleep pattern the world over was to sleep in two ~4hr shifts with an hour or two break in between in the middle of the night. The commonality of this is evidenced partly by various allusions to it in literature--as if it were simple, common knowledge. Some articles mentioned that some people go to the doctor thinking they have a sleep disorder when they continually wake up in the middle of the night, only to learn that their body is simply reverting to its own natural sleep cycle.

  30. Beggars in Spain by jacksdl · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Good science fiction story form 1993 by Nancy Kress about finding the genetic basis of the need for sleep. Among the ideas in the story is that sleep is only needed to dial back metabolism at night, thus conserving energy. Evolutionarily useful when calories are scarce -- not so much now. When the genetic need for sleep is removed, a group of super-productive people is created. Food for thought...

    1. Re:Beggars in Spain by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Sleep helps the body, but its primary benefit is for the mind. If you think of the mind as a computer, sleep is when it performs all of the needed maintenance tasks that it can't do when you're awake to keep the computer operating at peak efficiency. If you don't sleep enough, you can get by for awhile, but your brain will become more and more muddled until you can just barely function. Removing the genetic need for sleep wouldn't be a simple procedure and would likely have some very ugly consequences.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:Beggars in Spain by jacksdl · · Score: 1

      You're probably right. But I wonder if we don't do that important maintenance while we're sleeping mainly because there is nothing else going on. Kind of like scheduling indexing and garbage collection on a computer when it is least burdened...

    3. Re:Beggars in Spain by Falos · · Score: 1

      There was an article a while back about how it's a chance to detox, kind of like a reverse dry docking.

      http://science.slashdot.org/st...

      iirc TFA says the circulatory system doesn't really penetrate to the cranium's innards bc space is a premium in there, and that means a loss in waste removal. Says during sleep the spinal fluids rise up and flush the brain, in lieu.

      That alone would still be a physical, chemical demand, which hypothetically could be subverted somehow. But I still expect there's mental processing that's done during sleep; rearrangement, defrag, long-term memory writing. Yes, indexing. Things that can't be done while the brain is "on".

      Cheating the sandman is almost up there with immortality and uploading myself.

    4. Re:Beggars in Spain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're probably right. But I wonder if we don't do that important maintenance while we're sleeping mainly because there is nothing else going on. Kind of like scheduling indexing and garbage collection on a computer when it is least burdened...

      during Michael Bay movies?

  31. Re:Acquired skill by war4peace · · Score: 2

    Sleeping is a very complex process, and the duration of sleep could be genetically altered by compressing various stages of sleep, e.g. making the transitions more efficient, etc.

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  32. Well obviously. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It takes about nine months for that mutation to gestate. As soon as it manifests, blammo, goodbye sleep.

  33. Thyroid by digsbo · · Score: 1

    Thyroid levels and other hormones affect this. I'd be shocked if the mutated gene didn't affect the metabolizing of one or more of those hormones. I'm falling off a cliff of being able to function normally on 8 hours of sleep as my thyroid levels (affected by medical issues early in life) are finally falling below the normal range.

  34. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds to me like you have been genetically favoured with a low requirement for sleep but are also predisposed to laziness thus requiring will power to take advantage of it.

  35. 2 hours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have sleep apnea - and consequently spend an inordinate amount of time in bed not asleep (having been woken up by lack of breathing, etc.). I've had a FitBit and a MS Band - both tell me that I am actually sleeping anywhere from 1.5 - 3 hours even though I am in bed for about 7 hours a night. On one of my best weekend nights I had 59 minutes of "restful sleep", 5 hours of "light sleep" while in bed for 9 hours. Wake ups were only 19 times that night! Generally it is much worse.

    1. Re: 2 hours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I suggest you always wear your sleeping mask, and try not to get too drunk. I had a friend who died from sleep apnea because he was drunk and did not wear his mask that night. Sad story,
      Father of 2 And only 42 years of age.

  36. Re:Acquired skill by mongothesecond · · Score: 1

    Completely disagreed. I forced myself to six hours a night, and drove myself into a depressive episode. After I recent, I examined details of exercise, diet, stress levels, then tried the same experiment and again got the same result. I need 8.5 a night.

  37. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nope. Getting up early in the morning is an aquired skill. Anyone can learn to do that, and work early morning shifts. But that just forces them to bed earlier in the evening too. Some need 6 hours, some need 8 hours - anyone have some amount of sleep they need.

    Dicipline can make you quit wasting time in bed, and jump out when the clock rings. You can even train yourself to wake up 5min before the clock rings. But dicipline can't reduce your need for sleep.

  38. Re:Acquired skill by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

    That's a really bold, totally untrue assertion.

  39. 6-8 hours by Greyfox · · Score: 1
    I can get by on 6 more or less indefinitely. Some nights I feel like I'm tossing and turning and not getting to sleep all night, but if I get up on those nights I'm even more of a wreck the next day than I would be otherwise. I'm pretty sure I'm just getting a few minutes of sleep each hour punctuated by moments of conscious awareness. So I'm sleeping-ish, but it doesn't feel to me like I am.

    Oddly the time I get up also makes a difference. I've found that if I set my alarm for 6 AM, I'll usually wake up a few minutes before the alarm goes off and be ready to go. If I set it for 6:30, I won't want to get out of bed at that time. I figure I'm usually cutting off a deeper sleep cycle at 6:30, which makes it harder to get going. At least that's my hypothesis.

    I've found a 20 minute power nap when I'm feeling really tired can keep me going another 4-6 hours, too. I read a study a while back that put forth the idea that you could get by indefinitely on a 4-hours-up cycle with a 20 minute nap between each cycle. Life circumstances usually make that difficult to test, and I'm almost completely positive that strategy wouldn't work for me anyway.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  40. I never sleep in by eepok · · Score: 1

    I sleep (typically) from 9:30pm to 6:00am when I have work the next day. I also bike commute and don't eat breakfast, so I need the sleep when I'm not eating before the ride.

    On Friday and Saturday nights, though, I tend to go to sleep around 10:00pm and wake up around 4:30am or 5:00am. Weird, I know, but for some reason, I wake up with the thought in my mind, "This is my time! I'm not sleeping through it!"

  41. I saw a documentary about sleep by shoor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's been awhile since I saw it, but I was struck by one thing in particular. One of the researchers talked about a period of 4 hours during the sleep when participants usually could not remember dreaming, but apparently they were. They could be awakened during this time and recall their dreams. The researcher would also disturb the sleeper somehow without completely waking them up but it would still disrupt their sleep somehow. When the subjects woke up they believed they had gotten a good night's sleep and felt fine. But cognitive tests showed they were not operating at maximum potential.

    Generally sleep is poorly understood, but it seems to be an almost universal phenomenon and need in the animal world. Muck with it at your risk.

    --
    In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
    1. Re:I saw a documentary about sleep by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of something else I often wonder about myself. Many (most?) people seem to say they don't dream all that much, or never remember them. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, where I could swear I'm *always* dreaming, and assuming I don't have to rush, whenever you wake me up I could tell you about the dream in great detail. I cannot remember a time when I woke up and didn't think I'd just been dreaming. I've often wondered if somehow I'm not getting into the deeper sleep that other people do, or what exactly is going on with me.

  42. ".. but I usually have an afternoon nap." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why say this? Why?
    You think that sleep doesn't count for something?
    You think it is outside the realms of sleep?

    A nap IS sleep.
    You will nap for as long as your body feels is necessary, unless you get woken up by environment.
    20 minutes in, your brain has been cleared of a reasonable number of transmitters that have gathered up over the day and left you tired.
    110+-20mins will be a full sleep cycle for the average person.

    Really though, if there was a way to give this to people through gene therapy, holy crap. Work hours would become even more awful than they are now.

  43. Polyphasic Sleep by MagickalMyst · · Score: 1

    Animals - and apparently some humans - can function completely by taking short naps (10-20 mins) repeatedly throughout a 24 hour period without having an hours long sleep session. This phenomenon is termed polyphasic sleep.

    It is also interesting to note that the practice of lucid dreaming (having conscious awareness during a dream while it is happening) happens during REM sleep - which increases in frequency and duration throughout the night (or sleeping time) - with the majority of REM sleep occurring with in the last couple of hours before waking.

    Thus, one method for inducing lucidity involves waking up a couple of hours early and staying awake for an hour or so and then returning to sleep, quickly entering into the REM state. Napping is also very conducive to lucid dreaming and REM sleep.

    This makes me wonder if people with the DEC2 gene would have a better chance of entering REM sleep (and thus have more opportunity to become lucid) than someone without the gene. Logic would seem to dicate so.

    --
    Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
  44. Combination by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

    As with most things, I suspect there's a certain amount of this you can "learn" and beyond that is where genetics comes into play. Even as a kid when my twin sister went to bed I was allowed to stay up and read for 3 more hours until my parents went to bed. For about 6 years I was sleeping 3 hours per night but it wasn't enough and I'd come home after work and crash for a 40 minute nap. My former room mate used to ask how I got so much stuff done but he slept 10-12 hours a night, which is the opposite end of extreme. I now sleep about 5 or 6 hours per night (when exercising regularly 6-7 hours when I'm not regularly exercising) and it's perfect for me. Any more than that and I actually feel more lethargic. I wouldn't say I'm a "short sleeper" in a genetic sense but I definitely enjoyed the productivity I had when I was trying to be one.

    --
    "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
  45. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's risky

  46. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes Ms. Thatcher, we hear you. This study shows you're full of shit.

  47. Short and insomniac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I rarely need more than 6 hours. On top of that I'm an insomniac that goes up to 3 days without sleep and it really isn't until that last couple of hours before I get to sleep that I even feel like I'm tired. Even more is that if I tell myself before I go to sleep that I need to wake up at 5 and that isn't before the 6 hours I would normally sleep, I'll wake up a half hour before that time, the time it takes me to fully wake up and get cleaned up. That latter I attribute to discipline, one of those people that doesn't need an alarm clock.

    Doctor's have been stumped on what the cause of my insomnia is so it's possible it could be a side effect of something like what's discussed. Have been for all sorts of tests both physical and psychological trying to determine the cause and all the doctors could conclude was that ordinary causes have an effect but aren't the cause.

  48. Re:Acquired skill by cyberchondriac · · Score: 2

    Similar here. I usually get about 7 to 7.5 hours of sleep during weekdays, but I'm all in for 9 hours on weekdays if I can do it. Too much is a bad thing too, but 6 hours is just not nearly enough for me. I wonder what a long term study - something like 25 years- would reveal? Do people who "need" less sleep tend to age quicker, or become more susceptible to any autoimmune deficiencies, or cancer, etc.. ?
    I believe those who say and live by the motto, "I'll sleep when I'm dead" will find themselves getting that sleep a little sooner than they anticpated.

    --

    Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  49. Re:No amount of practice will allow me to short sl by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    I'm experimenting. I sleep 6-9 and 2-6, or try to; I'm a late chronotype, which means those 10pm-2am hours are fantastic and otherworldly, but those early morning hours... let's just say I am fucked up as hell if I stay up until 1am and sleep until 6am, but can stay up until 5am and sleep until 10 and feel refreshed and god-like. I tend to sleep 6-10 and then want to sleep 2-10 anyway.

    Shortening that first sleeping span seems possible, if I can get more REM. I've seen strategies of napping 20-30 minutes 3 times for REM and taking a 3 hour deep sleep segment; I've also considered trying to take 2-3 solid hours of sleep, and then throw some cholinergics and a deep sleep suppressor for the 4 hour segment, in order to buffer more REM into the second span.

  50. Re:Acquired skill by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    Depression and laziness are in your head; sleep requirements are in your fucking biology. You can treat your depression and laziness with cognitive therapy; you can treat your sleep requirements with drugs, maybe, and that's not proven yet.

  51. Headaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to sleep long at the weekends, but for the last few years (since maybe age 37) I find that if I sleep much more than 8 hours, I get a migraine that feels more or less like a hangover minus the body temperature fluctuations. At worst, I have to stay in bed until the late evening until I can function normally again (i.e. keep my eyes open without throwing up).

    For a long time, because I'd only get it on a Saturday, and more usually after a bit of drinking, I just thought my hangovers were getting worse. But after cutting out the alcohol it was still happening, and I realised that the alcohol was just making me sleep longer, and it was the sleep that was the problem.

    So now I just stick to the workday routine, and all is well. I've since discovered others get this too to some extent (headaches rather than migraines), noticeably moms who have to do kid stuff on a Saturday morning.

  52. Does less sleep == full recovery? by kheldan · · Score: 2

    As an amateur athlete, I understand well the importance of getting enough quality sleep. The question I have here is, if you have this 'genetic mutation' and naturally sleep fewer hours, does your body fully recover, day-to-day, or are you perpetually feeling sleep-deprived regardless? To put it another way, is your body recovering/recharging/(re)building faster and more efficiently, therefore less need for sleep, or are you just incapable of sleeping 8-10 hours at a time? If it's the former, then I'd sign up to have my DNA resequenced to have this trait, if such a thing were actually possible.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Does less sleep == full recovery? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strictly based on anecdotes, I know a guy who allegedly sleeps very little. He's a top student in my cohort and when I met him again in university, he was doing so well, he was a TA for some of the notoriously difficult CS subjects. On top of it, he rows dragon boats as well (which is essentially canoeing except with a drum) and does a lot of exercises. The downside of this: He allegedly has depression and is a bit mentally unstable. Then again, this is all hearsay and the depretssive episodes were more isolated so we can't really tell.

  53. Re:Acquired skill by Bengie · · Score: 1

    If I get fewer than 7 hours of sleep, yes even 6 hours, for more than 7 days in a row, I start to get dizzy spells, numbness of limbs, muscle twitching, migraines, strange distortions to my vision, hearing strange sounds, confusion of where I am, I can feel my pulse throughout my body, random weakness in that may cause my legs to give out, my head to suddenly tip, or my hands to lose grip.

    I assume this is bad, so I make sure I get at least 7+ hours. Of course I can handle 1-2 days of almost no sleep with almost no issue if I'm "caught up" on sleep.

  54. Experimenting with sleep by sjbe · · Score: 2

    I'm guessing you are fairly young compared with me if you have the flexibility to sleep odd schedules like that. I used to do all sorts of weird sleep experiments too but such things aren't really compatible with most jobs and family responsibilities. I know it's possible to do successfully do some very unusual sleep schedules but it's hard to reconcile those with societal expectations. My work hours aren't especially flexible and my wife would be pissed if I was asleep between 6-9pm every day. I'd basically never see her.

    Sleep is interesting and I REALLY wish I could get away with sleeping less. I consider it 1/3 of my life utterly wasted but there isn't really much I can do about it.

    1. Re:Experimenting with sleep by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I'm like 30. Most people are just stupid; I'll fix that one day, too, and it'll probably be more piecemeal than solving poverty. After that, people will find more inclination to adapt to novel situations, instead of just shitting their pants and forgetting to wear their helmets. Human intellect is, fortunately, completely mutable.

  55. No one believes me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Until they live with me, or work with me. I sleep between 2-5hrs a night and average about 4/night per any given week. Given that I'm bipolar too I cycle a small bump into the mania section monthly and usually don't sleep at all 1 - 2 nights per month. None of which has any ill affect on health or functionality. When I get distracted by a project or my art, I will often just work a straight 18 - 20hrs without even thinking of sleep (food gets low priority too then). As a child I never napped past 6 months and by the time I hit 1st grade my bedtime was (begrudgingly) 10 - 11pm. By the end of first grade my parents gave up enforcing it and set the rule: "If you're grumpy or in a bad mood of any kind in the morning or have to be forced out of bed, you get an 8pm bedtime." I'd be up prior to my family any weekday morning.

    As much as I have tried I am unable to reset my internal clock and find mornings tedious. My natural rhythm is to goto bed about 6am waking at 9 - 10. I am functional in the am, but get creative about 2pm and stay in that cognitive mode until sleep. I drop into REM almost instantly, less than 10 min. Been used in a few sleep studies because that REM mode is apparently rare. I suspect it's why I don't sleep much.

    1. Re:No one believes me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Given that I'm bipolar ... None of which has any ill affect on health or functionality."

      I suggest you look up 'sleep hygiene'.

  56. 10 hours by Atmchicago · · Score: 1

    I sleep 9.5-10 hours when uninterrupted. If I get less than 7.5 then I need an afternoon nap. I envy people who can get by with less, for the cumulative extra hours spent awake add up to a lot.

    --

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

  57. I'm an odd one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When I was under 7, I needed the normal 8-9 hours of sleep.

    During the summer of my 7th, we moved a fairly long distance - and I stayed up until 4AM, then slept til 7AM.

    AFTER that, I found I couldn't sleep until 3AM or so, woke at 6 as usual, and had a "normal" day. I would read 4 to 5 books a night.

    I got classed as a borderline epiliptic, and was put on sedatives to make me sleep a more normal period, which I still do, mostly. After 18 I was off the drugs (finally!), but still sleeping relatively normally, though there were times I have pulled a 23 hour shift, then returned for a normal day following a 3 hour sleep.

    Now, over 60, I can sleep at the drop of a hat for 10-15 minutes - or even all day.

  58. Odd number of hours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Noticed in college when I was trying to get by on less and less sleep that if I slept an odd number of hours, I felt more rested that if I slept an even number of hours, even if that gave me an extra hour of rest. It was completely an accidental realization, but when I started sleeping 5 or 7 hours instead of 6 or 8 I did notice a difference. It seemed to break down at 3 hours... probably just not enough time. I always assumed it had something to do with hitting a sweet spot in the various sleep stages.

  59. Re:Acquired skill by Moof123 · · Score: 1

    When forced into it (new baby, long crunch times at work) I have found that it is not an acquired skill. After more than even a couple weeks of only getting about 6 hours I end up miserable, constantly groggy, slow to recover from exercise, and with impaired complex reasoning.

    Back in college I lived in Alaska. Over summer I worked in a student lab with near constant daylight. I found that my happy spot was to work about 16-20 hours, then sleep for about 10-12. It was not uncommon to sleep for 7-8, get up to eat something, then go back to sleep for another 3-4. It is not that I was being lazy, I was in fact working 60-80 hours every week and loving it.

  60. Re:Acquired skill by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 1

    And nothing to do with all that coffee you're guzzling.

    Oh, I can get by on 3-4 hours a night too! Hell I can do it without caffeine. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking we're functioning perfectly fine on this little sleep. The legendary short sleepers the article is talking about don't ever sleep in and they don't set alarms to wake themselves up. You jumble up their circadian rhythm and they'll still be paddling along just fine. They don't wake up tired; they wake up refreshed.

    One of the things scientists found when they studied this was that a lot of people (like yourself) claimed to be short sleepers, but were, in actuality, just suffering from chronic sleep deprivation. You grow so used to feeling tired that you acclimate to the feeling. That's all it is. You're definitely not performing at peak capacity.

  61. Indoor/outdoor difference by temcat · · Score: 1

    I normally need 8 to 9 hours when sleeping indoors, but only 5-6 hours outdoors.

  62. Re:Acquired skill by umghhh · · Score: 1

    That is correct. At least as far as I can observe on myself, my family, friends and from what I read. Assuming it was possible for general population to get people to get less sleep and function properly the armed forces including air force pilots would not have to resort to drugs to keep going without enough sleep. This of course does not mean that with some discipline you cannot forgo sleep for one night but there are limits to this too. There are people that sleep less. Some of them suffer from - everybody is like me (but are to lazy to be as successful as me) delusion.

  63. 3-5 are enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could survive with even less. For a short while 1.5-2 hours a night would be manageable even if a bit uncomfortable with a longer brain start up phase.
    Got no sleep at all for 96 hours once (no pills involved), still alive.

    No. Not exaggerating.
    No. Not lying.

  64. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your implication that Depression and Laziness are similar is completely unfounded by the science.

    You can be completely manic and be lazy or horribly depressed and while tired, not desire to slack off.

    One is a personality trait, the other is a biological condition.

  65. Re:Acquired skill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those statements are true to a point.

    Yes, you can treat depression with therapy, to some amount of success

    Yes, you can treat sleep requirements with amphetamines.

    Yes, laziness is in your head because the term doesn't describe any problem precisely other than catatonia.

  66. At what price, a higher alzheimer's risk? by dsmatthews9379 · · Score: 1

    There has to be a catch, some cost that undermines the advantage, otherwise it would be more common surely?

  67. As someone who is vertically challenged... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finally a study that goes my way!

  68. Age related? by Necron69 · · Score: 1

    I'm guessing the submitter is a lot younger than I am.

    When I was in college, I could (and did) easily sleep to noon or 1pm on weekends when I didn't have to work. Now in my mid-40s, I usually wake up around 5am without an alarm clock, and average at best 6-7 hours per night. I would love to sleep more, but I just can't.

    Meanwhile, I have a hard time getting my teenage daughters out of bed before 9 or 10am on the weekends. Grrr.

    - Necron69

  69. Sleep habits run in the family by Winkkin · · Score: 1

    I'm 61 years old and in moderately good health. A lot of people say that I don't look a day over 45. I have slept no more than 5 hours a day, on more than 90% if the days, over the last 45 years. I usually sleep about 3 hours at night (actually, early morning, I work in a bar) and get in a 90 minute nap before going to work. Alert and active daily from 9AM till 7PM and work from 10PM till 4AM. Rinse and repeat. Had similar sleeping patterns over 30 years while I worked a 9-5. My father used to work 2 full time jobs and slept about 3 hours per night. Would leave for work at 5:30AM and come home at 12:30AM, the next day. Made ice cream in the morning and ran an overhead crane in a foundry evenings. Did it for 23 years. I'd bet DEC2 is capable of being passed on. Dad lived to be 93. Hope I have that gene too. Wonder if they'd like a DNA sample.

  70. Cancer by mundlapati · · Score: 1

    Can DNA mutation be used to cure Cancer?