Slashdot Mirror
Windows 10's Automatic Updates For NVidia Drivers Causing Trouble
Mark Wilson writes: One of the features that has been removed from Windows 10 — at least for home users — is the ability to pick and choose when updates are installed. Microsoft has taken Windows Update out of the hands of users so the process is, for the most part, completely automated. In theory, this sounds great — no more worrying about having the latest patches installed, no more concerns that a machine that hasn't been updated will cause problems for others — but an issue with NVidia drivers shows that there is potential for things to go wrong. Irate owners of NVidia graphics cards have taken to support forums to complain that automatically-installed drivers installed have broken their computers.
You are all cows. Cows say moo. MOOOOOOOO! MOOOOOOOO! Moo cows MOOOOOOOO! Moo say the cows. YOU COWS!!
Usually the problem is something like, "it isn't giving me the newest driver" or simply the poor quality of the drivers in the first place. (For awhile there, if I clicked on the start button, it would cause my screen to reset!) And a lot of "your driver stopped responding so we turned it off, then back on again."
In some ways, I like that the drivers are being pushed to me automatically, but at the same time, if I'm doing multiple reinstalls in a single day, I've already downloaded the drivers... I don't need them to be downloaded YET AGAIN, every install...
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
These people are complaining that their BETA software broke their drivers. Yes. Because it's BETA SOFTWARE.
I'm sure something like this will happen eventually to someone when it actually gets released too. But, there are a million Grandpas out there who will be a lot safer with a fully up to date computer. If you want to defer your updates, get the Pro version.
...but an issue with NVidia drivers shows that there is potential for things to go wrong....
Given Microsoft's history of buggy Windows Update patches these past few months, I'd proffer that there is more than just a potential for things to go wrong. There is a likelihood that things will go wrong.
.
Microsoft really needs to up its game regarding the quality of the patches it is foisting upon the world.
If you're unhappy that NVidea didn't do it right the first time, complain to them or get a different video card.
I have absolutely no sympathy for those crying about wanting to disable automatic updates.
If you're a pro, get a pro version and run your own WSUS server on a VM.
If you're not a pro but want to delay or skip updates, you're likely part of the problem in delaying your updates too long simply because you don't want to select "Update and shut down" once or twice a month.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
I think we all knew this would happen. You push instant, automatically installed updates out you are going to bork a hell of a lot of machines, overwrite a lot of drivers and generally annoy the bajesus out of people who actually know what they are doing with their machines.
People who understand why this is a bad idea shouldn't have to fork out for pro just to have the option.
Personally, i check out every KB article and google each update before i install them thanks to the recent wave of kernal updates which caused innumerable problems. Also means i don't get crap like the windows 10 nagware.
You may as well buy a Yugo! The market is so submissive! Consumers need to demand better. And there is no damn reason we should tolerate any machine that is not fully operational within 5 seconds of turning the damn thing on! Christ! We had instant on TVs in the 60s!
Get off my goddamn lawn, you punks
Is for Microsoft to create two different streams of patches, just like they are in the current Windows Update:
- Security updates (updated auto, with intensive testing before being pushing)
- Optional updates (not automated, user must request the update - all drivers end up here, unless they are a critical security update on the driver, and in that case, only the related issue is fixed on the driver, and based on the current version of it)
Simple isn't it?
But will they listen?
This is exactly the sort of thing everyone predicted would happen with enforced automatic updating. It is exactly the sort of reason people argued against taking control out of users hands. I just didn't expect we'd see an example of it before Windows 10 was actually released though. For once Microsoft has proven itself to be ahead of the curve. Yay?
While Microsoft Update has generally been something good for Windows (and the Internet) by reducing the number of vulnerable machines, it has not been without its share of programs. There are countless stories of Update pushing bad patches and drivers, and quality-control at Microsoft has apparently taken a turn for the worse in the last couple of years. Nobody is arguing that Microsoft should stop pushing patches or even that the default - especially for home users - should be to automatically download and install the patches. But by removing the user's ability to ultimately accept or decline these patches benefits nobody.
But I guess Microsoft wasn't satisfied with just having a reputation for producing shoddy products that don't work as intended; now they seem to be working towards earning the reputation for creating a product that intentionally goes out of its way to break itself.
They were already a thing in the Technical Preview, where Microsoft forcefed us drivers through Windows Update, that are not even fully compatible with the hardware, causing blue screens after blue screens.
I'm all for Microsoft automatically updating their OS, but let me choose which Drivers I want damn it.
that's why I run a mac, no drivers to worry about. ever.
This is why the forced automatic updates are a horrible idea: one bad update adversely affects many machines automatically.
I wonder how many times this will happen before MS once again allows home users to choose how and when to update.
disenfranchising users and using them as exploitable cannon fodder to be sucked on!
Who owns and controls my computer?
Some dork in a far away country living out his/her power trips or is it the insatiable, money greedy, total out of touch, higher-upper robot-C?O acting in delusion what needs to be done.
For chrissake, if you want to do anything on the hardware and software I paid for, kindly ask me and give me a choice.
Run fiddler on startup and see who has his dirty fingers in the box in your room.
Is this just a bad dream and when will it be over?
And FYI they install automatically too on 7 and 8.1.
I only use the drivers from Windows update as the ones from ATI or NVidia are always buggy. Sounds like a bad time to fire the QA team and only focus on usage scenarios and feedback.
I personally will avoid 10 until redstone or the update after comes out ..,. and will use the professional edition.
http://saveie6.com/
I disabled the update that nags me to install Windows 10. No way, I have a laptop that is certified to run under 8, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend even one minute in driver hell. I uninstalled the update, and I think I told Windows Update not to install it again. I hid it, or something...I don't really remember. I applied some kind of solution I found from a message board. But whoops, there it is again after a recent reboot. It also demanded I activate Windows again after boot, which I've already done at least twice. Dicks.
This is why I am a late, late adopter. Hell, I didn't even want Windows 8, I only got it because I couldn't find a decent laptop with 7 when I bought three months ago. Let other people spend hours figuring out how to get their systems to work again. Me, I'm going to be poolside, with my laptop that works, and after 2-3 years when I get another one, the problems will have been fixed by then. Maybe.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Uncontrollable updates. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck that.
There are several methods to turn off automatic driver updates in Win10:
SearchOrderConfig=0
See subject: It's usually always this way, especially w/ drivers, @ least initially - funniest part is that NVidia's GENERALLY "dead-on/top marks" w/ their drivers in my experience thusfar!
Well - except when OS undergo ANY *major changes* at "low levels" of operations!
Such as when GDI + Win32 where put in 'second place default' vs. transitioning to say, AeroGlass & shunting graphics duties over to vidcards (just doing what GDI/Win32 could, but faster - transparency was always there even in the older subsystems) & THEN, they did away with it - wtf!
(Or even moreso/worse, evidencing my points above: During the Win9x -> NT "exodus" that started w/ Windows 2000 & REALLY 'took hold' w/ XP - then, it was "driver hell" in video for a GOOD bit there... this is the price, of TOO MUCH change, too fast...)
* I see something from MS though - a GOOD thing: They learned they CAN'T say "want to know what's good for you? let US show you and you'll like it, since WE said so!" with VISTA/Win8.x & the STUPID default phone interface!
That backfired on them, large...
(... & all they had to DO during install was allow users to choose their default shell really, OR, allow it during operations if you bought a preinstalled systems setup the 'default' dumbass way...).
What I've heard is they're going for what Apple has going & trying to be GOOGLE @ the same time - advertising power, more than anything else... stupid.
They learned you can't grab the public tiger by the tail & wag it... it's the OTHER way around. For a pack of intelligent people, their moves in those OS versions were ANYTHING but intelligent. They were arrogant.
A good product sells itself. Guess what VISTA - 8.x were? Not good, obviously.
APK
P.S.=> I also didn't like what I'd heard that Windows DEMANDS you now logon w/ some sort of "MS Account" (ala like how hotmail/outlook.com works) - anyone care to "set me straight" vs. the rumor mill out there on how THAT allegedly really works? Documentation/citation to back you would be necessary though (even if it comes @ my own expense in being 'wrong' here on this - no loss of face on that note whatsoever imo, as I can stand to be put right or corrected & learn by it as much as the next guy can)... apk
Can cause all sorts of conflicts because it does not remove previous versions completely when driver is updated by windows, i would certainly prefer to manage my graphics drivers independently from windows update as to avoid these potentially frustrating issues.
Before I switched my file server over to FreeNAS and a motherboard with an AMD video chipset, Ubuntu would automatically install the Nvidia drivers for the Geforce 6200 video card and FUBAR the entire Linux installation. The fix was to re-install Ubuntu. What a PITA!
I remember this nonsense in college 15 years ago. Windows updates were a joke back then - surely the worlds largest software company has had time to sort out this issue.
I went from being a "windows guy" in college to the "anything but windows" guy now. Our company does run some windows servers in very limited roles, but everything else is Mac OS, Linux, or Chromebooks. We have 4 desktops running windows due to applications that only run on windows.
I put my family members on Mac OS or Chromebooks - and life has been much easier on me. No family members call me for help any more - it's fantastic.
Windows users need to take a hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they are running that stuff. It most cases it is simply not necessary any longer.
I'm not saying the this was planned, but apparently MS and nV got together
this idea to "encourage" people to "upgrade" to Win 10 Pro (where users can
elect when they want to update their software) for forcing the application of
updates that may break their world. Seriously, nobody cares about their video
card's driver bricking their computer - better get "Pro" so I don't haveta worry
'bout how the poor people are running their software after that last "update"...
CAP === 'scuffle'
Wasn't Win10 the system where you can't turn off updates? Now, how does that work out for you?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I am surprised no one is taking about the Microsoft’s grab of free use of your up-link bandwidth for its patches. Thief of service comes to mind, since it is hidden from view and behind multi-screens to even see that is switched on.
This is spot down in Windows update that allows them to push patches from your machine to others. So they are using your month payment of internet and using it to off-load from from their LARGE server farms.
"Updates from more than one place" ... PC's on my local network ... PC's on my local network and PC's on the internet.
Off/On (switch is labels are backwards.
Get update from Microsoft, and get updates from and send updates to:
Nothing like getting on P2P bandwagon.
PS: I love MS default avatar for a user. A sad Cyclops. Explains the use of Windows completely.
Well, it only took 2 years for NVIDIA/ Microsoft to acknowledge the blue screen update to windows 8. Guess I'm getting smarter in my old age. Remember - service pack 2 , or it doesn't happen.
c'mon, 2 stories for M$ on the FP?
does /. really need M$ stories every fucking day?
I normally spend my time on my computers in the company of a Linux distribution, but since I'm a retired "Windows Janitor", I get bugged a lot to "take a look" at friends/neighbors machines. Since the last version of Windows I spent any great amount of time with was XP, I figured I'd better see what all the hoopla was about Windows 8/8.1. I came into a retail copy of 8.1 instead of $$$ for some work I did on a neighbors system, so I figured I'd grab a spare laptop drive and install it so I could get familiar with it, so as not to come off as derpy when the inevitable calls on 8.1/10 start hitting my phone. The install was as smooth as silk, and the system looked/worked fine, after installing the MANDATORY ClassicShell. The inevitable WU notification came and told me I had 100+ updates, so I turned it loose to do its thing.. Once the updates installed, and a reboot, I logged into the system and KABLOOOIE.. right after login, one of the new-style BSOD's telling me there was a video_tdr_failure in one of the pieces of the Nvidia driver that WU forced down my systems throat.. After some googling to find that MS, in its infinite wisdom, had changed the old "F8" to get to safemode, I managed to figure it out and installed the latest/greatest from the Nvidia website, which made the Quadro FX770M in my system happy... Now I hear that MS, once again, in its infinite wisdom, is gonna take away the capability of permanently skipping crap updates in Windows 10, I'm getting close to the point of heading back to Linux, and telling friends that "if you want my help, you get rid of Windows and use Linux"....
THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
It sounds awful. Automatic updates sounds great, because it's a default. And you can turn it off. Windows 10 moves heaven and earth to remove the parts that let you turn it off. How does that sound great to anyone, at any point, ever?
Yup. The current "preview" build, 10240, is the RTM build. For all intents and purposes, Windows 10 is in its final release form.
In any case, given the history of these things, it's inevitable that Microsoft is going to push out an automatic update that massively screws up millions of machines. At the point, the very next update they're going to push out is an update that disables automatic updates.
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
Drivers have always been iffy on windows update.
Some times they try to install older ones on top of newer ones / try to install basic ones that lack CCC for AMD or the NVIDIA tools.
Try to install non working ones for some Intel nic cards.
Why make drivers forced ones? In the past some where auto picked and others where not.
OS X and iOS constantly nag users to update system software and user apps. Sometimes an app is really improved, but far more often the update includes adware and other crap. There's no way to know because those 'enhancements' are not mentioned when you are asked to update. It's best to look around for other users who updated and reported on the result--if you have lots of time on your hands...
...omphaloskepsis often...
See subject: I take it that every time you logon then, MS knows you have... THAT, I don't like or agree with, personally.
Especially that I've heard it lets MS know WHEN YOU ARE LOGGED ON TO YOUR SYSTEM.
That's nobodies' business but your own imo.
* However: To each his own - you seem to gain perceived benefits by that system... & they sound pretty ok from your perspective @ least.
APK
P.S.=> In any event, for the reasons I've noted (the least of all is this logon one, though I do NOT like that really)? I'm going to wait this out - Win7 is a FINE OS (only thing I don't like is how Ms took out 0 as a valid blocking IP address in hosts in 7 onwards, thru VISTA, into 8.x, & undoubtedly into Win10 as well) & 7 works JUST FINE for me ... apparently, those "early adopters" amongst you (some for kicks, others for trying the new stuff, & some for work + support familiarity with it etc.) aren't seeing that with drivers... this is, again, NOTHING NEW & happens with newer OS models & drivers from various hardware OEMs drivers (especially vidcards) - so, I'll wait it out, & see how the new hotness, Win10x, pans out, first... apk
On a daily basis I have to fight with Windows Update updating the ATI/AMD driver on my switchable graphics to something that it thinks is 'newer', but is actually totally incompatible with my machine due to the delicate balance needed between the Intel and ATI drivers.
I don't mind Windows Update auto-updating drivers, but I *need* a way to blacklist certain drivers.
The annoying bit, is that I'm using the 'Pro' version of Win10, and have disabled every place in registry and Control Panel I can find that says "auto update drivers for me"
See subject: 1st of all, why not?? Secondly, you should keep abreast of what "the competition" is doing... heh, to be quite honest?
THAT used to be my ONLY reason for coming here to /. - to see what's going on in the world of "Open SORES" etc. - et al... yes, to keep an eye on something that *MIGHT* one day supplant the KING of OS on PC desktops + servers combined (Windows, @ ~ 94.5% of the desktop market & 50% of the server market worldwide...).
Even Rome didn't last forever, in other words (neither did the horse & buggy vs. combustion engined vehicles).
---
Besides: I used to be one of the VERY few, if not THE, "poster child for Windows fanboy" on /., & I've learned to respect & TRY the "other sides' stuff" (mainly Linux, which I spent 1/2 a year on in 2010 in KUbuntu 10.04 - 10.10 & actually LIKED it...)
Put it THIS way - IF I can't get a FREE license for Windows, or I just decide to ditch it rather than spend on it? I'd be on Linux like "white on rice"... but, per this article's points??
THIS is a MINOR issue & common occurrence with Windows, often SOON CORRECTED... it makes sense since IT IS AN AREA OF STRENGTH FOR MS - driver compatibility AND availability for hardwares of various purposes.
It's an area MS cannot afford to F'up on, & neither can device makers with their driver programs... why? What I said above - BIG share of market, lots of consumers with HIGH EXPECTATIONS - especially of "it just all works" (& that is drivers to a tee with hardware).
APK
P.S.=> "Keep your friends close, & your enemies closer"? Sort of - but I suppose Sun Tzu put it better really: "Know thyself, & KNOW THY ENEMY - & you will NEVER lose in a 1,000 battles"... apk
Irate owners of NVidia graphics cards have taken to support forums to complain that automatically-installed drivers installed have broken their computers.
That would be 17 posters on the NVIDA GeForce drivers forum. Windows 10 Display Driver Feedback Thread
Interestingly the problem has also been experienced by Forbes contributor Paul Monckton who has done some digging and explained to me that the fault lies in a conflict between Windows Update and Nvidia's own driver and software management tool the 'Nvidia GeForce Experience'.
Many PC components and peripherals come with bundled software that automatically manages driver updates already. PC makers also often bolt on driver update management software onto their PCs (Lenovo is a notable example) which then has the potential to conflict with driver updates delivered by Windows Update.
''It looks like driver version 353.54 [the latest at time of writing] is available only via Window Update,'' Monckton told me. ''The problem is the Nvidia GeForce Experience then tried to downgrade that to the previous version while claiming the previous version was actually newer.''
The problem is compounded by the fact that Windows Update doesn't actually reveal driver version numbers prior to install or warn the user in advance so pinpointing something that has suddenly caused problems can be hard to identify.
Given Windows 10 updates cannot be stopped the most obvious solution is to uninstall third party driver management and hand it all over to Windows Update to avoid clashes. This potentially simplifies matters by providing an all-in-one update service, but it does mean taking away control from specialist companies over their own products.
Windows 10 Automatic Updates Start Causing Problems
Always going to the most recent Nvidia drivers has been a risky proposition for years, on Win 7, Vista, XP etc.
Nvidia put out a lot of driver updates tied specifically to newly released high-profile games. In some cases, performance in those games will be pretty shocking if you don't move straight to the latest drivers. The PC release of GTA5 (in most respects a solid release) is one example. Sometimes, the drivers are fine. More often, they cause issues with a range of older applications and games. One recent driver update caused massive issues with .mkv playback, for instance (though a workaround was discovered fairly quickly).
The sensible thing to do is to upgrade your drivers only every few months and only move to versions that are generally recognized as stable and whose known issues have well-tested workarounds. Automatically moving to the latest version is a mug's game.
Sometimes the whole thing goes amusingly wrong. When id Software released Rage, it had horrible texture pop-in issues on most PCs with Nvidia cards. Why? Because id had expected Nvidia to put out a particular driver update in time for launch and Nvidia had gone with a different one instead.
https://twitter.com/i0n1c/stat...
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.c...
I did look in the mirror after my exwife asked me why I kept using this linux system that kept beingh broke by updates. She ran Vista and didn't have these problems? I switched to Windows 7 in 2011 and never looked back.
http://saveie6.com/
So you went from preferring vagina to hairy men's assholes. Well, lots of people go through big changes in university. I've never had a problem with Windows update on any of my machines (too many to count), nor did I see problems with it when I actually worked in the field. I've heard stories from stupid motherfuckers like you, but never saw direct evidence. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that like most things, it's overblown by people like you who blame your shortcomings on anything but yourself.
This is yet another an example of the industry trend to make all personal computing devices, from desktop workstations to wrist-band gadgets, merely "dumb terminals" that are completely beholden to a distant server. Software will inevitably become a service that will be metered out by a distant authority like water or electricity.
Isn't this what RMS and the FSF have been warning about for many years?
I. for one, will now be giving more support to the ideals of RMS. This blatant expropriation of software and computing freedom by desperate corporate interests has got to be stopped.
Sorry, Microsoft, but I am the owner of my machine and not you:
sc config wuauserv start= DISABLED
CSC manages our company's computers. They update just about every week, removing features, adding security, and breaking our software.
Automatic updates are stupid, ill advised and can bring down entire production systems.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Mesa/nouveau are released under an MIT license. Any time MS want to hire their core developers, the option is there.
Look, I simply do not trust Microsoft to force updates on their timetable and without user consent.
They've had far too many incidents of demonstrating they absolutely suck at doing it, and there's far too many configurations of machines for this to work without leaving a wake of crap behind it.
Sorry, but this is just more Microsoft thinking they know what is best, being assholes about, and being fucking wrong about it.
If Microsoft is going with a model of "it's our computer and we'll break it if we want to" they can fuck off and watch people get away from Windows.
If I have to simply block Microsoft at the firewall level and deal with a less secure OS, I'd rather do that than put up with the bullshit of Microsoft incompetently deciding I must take their updates so I can be their fucking beta testers.
Every thing about the way Microsoft is doing this screams "assholes who incorrectly think we should trust them to have final control over our computers.
Not fucking happening.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I have a GTX 560 ti, and a couple of years ago, Nvideo released a driver that hosed that particular card with occasional lockups and general meltdowns. Hardware acceleration in Firefox, for instance, would cause the driver to glitch badly enough to require a reboot. Although Nvidia eventually did track it down and fix it, it took quite a few months to do so. I had to monitor their user forums to wait for a fix, and only then could I safely patch once it was confirmed by testers.
My computer would have been near unusable had the latest updates been forced on me. Microsoft really needs to rethink this. Patching automatically works fine as a default for home users, but there HAS to be a way to defer, roll-back, or opt-out of specific patches - especially anything that isn't security-related, like drivers. Patching an entire OS is not as simple as patching a browser. You know they're looking at the Chrome model here, which was actually somewhat controversial when it launched. This is a "we know what's best for you, so you don't have a choice anymore" model, and while it will be fine for *most* people, we've already seen that it can cause problems for *some*.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Also, remember - sharing your wireless connection with the world is awesome
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Note: I saw an AC mention you could turn off automatic downloading of drivers, so I checked it out. Keep in mind my Windows 10 version is out of date, though. so the RTM may be different.
Go to Control Panel -> System, then click on "Change Settings"
Under the Hardware tab, you can click on a button called "Device Installation Settings"
You're then asked "Do you want Windows to download driver software and realistic icons for your devices?
* Yes (recommended)
* No
Unless this changes for launch, it looks like people will have a way to opt out of automatic driver updates, so that's a good thing. Still, damn... they really buried that setting deep.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Drivers can be related to security; even graphics ones. Usual bullshit like sending specially crafted/malformed data to then execute something arbitrary can possibly happen.
A better answer would be "LTS drivers" that receive security updates (and some compatibility updates) and that does exist, but it's the legacy drivers. e.g. 30x.xx for geforce 6/7 hardware.
Currently running Windows 7, I allow Microsoft to notify me about updates; but I block them from downloading or installing. But that is how I handle all software. The only automatic updates that I allow are virus definitions for my anti-virus application, and updates to that application itself are also blocked until I am ready to download and install them.
For Microsoft updates, I wait at least a week after they are released. I read news reports and the alt.windows7.general newsgroup to see what others have experienced with those updates. I try to read Microsoft's "details" about its updates, but those are generally so vague that I cannot tell whether an update benefits me or benefits Microsoft. I reject any Microsoft updates for applications that I never use (e.g., Outlook, Silverlight) and any updates that facilitate installing Windows 10. I also reject Microsoft updates for non-Microsoft products. (Because I bought Acronis True Image, I get notices about updates directly from Acronis. I rejected Microsoft's recently released Acronis updates.)
In all cases, I want to delay any updates to any software on my PC until I know the process will not interfere with other tasks to which I have assigned a higher priority. Microsoft might release its updates on its own schedule, but I will install them on my own schedule.
All this means I certainly will not be updating Windows 7 to Windows 10. Another reason is that I have applications that run on Windows 7 -- some that I originally ran with Windows 95 -- that (1) are no longer being developed or even available but still serve my purposes and (2) Microsoft admits will not run with Windows 10.
Windows 10 (or even a later Windows) might be in my future only when I need a new application that will not run on any earlier version of Windows. Given that I am already 74 years old, my Windows 7 configuration might last longer than I will.
Download the latest windows 10 driver for your card from the nvidia website, run it and select clean install. It will fully uninstall and reinstall with the latest version of the driver. Windows update seems to recognize it as the latest version and doesn't replace it. Worked for me, totally fixed my issues.
When I read this my immediate thought was the somewhat old answer to "How do you fix a Windows machine? ... Install Linux", I'm here till thursday, try the veal.
You would expect that forced automatic updates be limited to Microsoft code. Unless they want to take on the job of testing the 3rd party updates, this seems not only reasonable, but wise. This should be an optional setting and they should just make 3rd party security updates be flagged aggressively, but still place the ultimate decision up to the user.
I haven't done much research, so I guess there is alot about Windows 10 I don't know. For instance, do these 'automatic updates' for 3rd party apps also include non-security components? If so, talk about a recipe for disaster. I know that avoid updating many of my apps on my phone because they work just the way I like and previous bad experiences have given me an aversion to doing so. Removing functionality, breaking, ruining/changing interface, whatever...they run the gamut.
I'm holding on to Windows 7 for as long as I can.
My Dell XPS 15 laptop running Windows 7 has an Nvidia graphics processor as well as Intel graphics. A choice can be made as to which processor to use for any application. I wonder if this is why I haven't seen the Widows 10 update Icon that invites me to reserve my update to Win 10. Maybe it's something else. A desktop computer I built running Win 7 does show the update icon.
Like many who have posted above, I have disabled auto updates on both these Win 7 computers and wait for a week to find out if there have been problems with any second Tuesday updates before installing them. I'm waiting to see if some auto update to Windows 10 bricks 10% of Win 10 computers and nothing can be done to use a restore point installation because there's no way to boot without a bootable disk or image. That is even if a restore point created. Even then restoring to a previous set up would just auto update to the faulty configuration because there's no way to turn off auto updates. This is going to be a mess.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Seeing users having issues with broken drivers may cause Microsoft to reconsider and allow more control over updates.
I think Microsoft makes too many blanket "we know what's best" decisions. I do think auto updates are fine for many and its probably a good ideal for those who don't want to deal with maintenance. But its not without problems and if Microsoft begins pushing recommended updates as well as required security updates.
This will create problems for Microsoft. I am feeling less and less inclined to embrace Windows 10 every day.
...if I'm doing multiple reinstalls in a single day...
...you've got major problems with your OS. Why do you keep reinstalling the same borked version of Windows when you know it's not going to work for you? That's pretty much the classic definition of insanity!
Good, inexpensive web hosting
Yeah, it's usually been a bad idea to let Windows update it's own drivers. They have a bad habit of downgrading things like Video drivers with older "Microsoft Certified" versions, and break/remove a bunch of features in the process.
Almost every other Windows version treats driver downloads as "optional" so they aren't automatically installed even if Automatic updates are on. Has this changed with Windows 10?
I turned off automatically updating of NVIDIA drivers after I found out it broke either DDC or EDID. Whichever it broke it caused Windows to default to a screen resolution / refresh / something much larger than the screen was capable of. Took a while to diagnose boot into safe mode and roll back the driver. Trying to figure out what's wrong with a computer when the screen doesn't come always results in a bad day.
It appears there's no notion of "optional" updates anymore, at least for the consumer version of Windows. Instead, as I mentioned, there's a checkbox buried deep in system settings to prevent drivers from getting upgraded. Also, there's a separate checkbox on the Windows Update settings page to determine if you'd like Microsoft applications to automatically be updated. I'd guess this would control whether things like Office are updated automatically as well.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Microsoft has had some really bad track records with patches as of late. They've trashed Outlook 2010 no less than four times this year, it's gotten so bad we've had to disable updates company wide. I actually had one use request a downgrade to Office 2007 since Microsoft didn't seem to break that one. After the third mass break this year it's gotten to the point that I outright ban any patch labeled Outlook when I update a system with 2010 on it.
Come on Microsoft, I didn't have a huge amount of trust in you to begin with. Publicly address this chain of fail and promise you'll cut it out to restore some faith.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
It appears there's no notion of "optional" updates anymore
there's a checkbox buried deep in system settings to prevent drivers from getting upgraded
?
Not sure why the question mark. What don't you understand?
The category of "optional" updates has gone away, and is instead replaced with the ability to disable driver or application downloads. This is roughly the same in practice, but is slightly less flexible.
The disadvantage with the new mechanism is that you can't pick and choose among the "optional" updates. Say you wanted to update your audio and mouse drivers, but not your video drivers (since you prefer to update them using Nvidia's app to do so).
The advantage of the new system is that you can choose to automatically update what used to be an optional update, and those had to be manually applied, if I remember correctly. Some people may also prefer to have both their drivers and applications automatically updated. It's a bit friendlier for typical users at the expense of the power-users.
I'd like to see that "driver downloads" setting moved to the main Windows Update settings page, where people are more likely to find it.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
And a lot of "your driver stopped responding so we turned it off, then back on again."
That's the infamous nvidia TDR problem, and has been plaguing their drivers and cards since the very early R.208.xx series drivers. Said TDR problem has been so bad that ~4 years ago they were paying to ship PC's to California for testing to determine the cause of it. It's been on-going since 2008 and they haven't fixed it, or have been working on 'trying to fix it' since then.
The last time nvidia fixed it in mid 2011, it was due to the cards throttling the core voltage down to control the amount of heat being generated. This caused problems in a lot of cards, especially cards which had flaky GPU's that didn't handle voltages well. Well it was fixed for all of about one driver release then it was right back to where it was again.
Om, nomnomnom...
Not with Windows. Sometimes insanity is the only way to get a Windows machine or server running properly.
Before people come after me, No, I don't use Linux at home or in the work place. I work as a Windows SA.
Well, shit. Someone else informed me that the option to disable updating of drivers is ONLY when you insert new hardware. So, you typically wouldn't want to disable this.
It looks like this may still be an issue then. Damn, that's a really misleading setting name. Sorry for the misinformation.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Well, whatever they want to label it as now it's still optional.
The reason it's probably buried is to keep your average person poking around and messing with things that they don't understand. I think the automatic update changes will be a good thing for most people while those of us who know how will still be able to stop them.
I have an AMD APU under the hood here, if Microsoft manage to override my preference for manufacturer reference drivers over their DX Certified crap and fuck my machine up in the process of rendering my 7 Home Premium licence useless for reinstalling 7HP, I'll be making the immediate and permanent switch to an alternative kernel.
I mean really, only Microsoft could manage to fuck up what is essentially a toaster as far as me, an end user, is concerned.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
No doubt peripheral manufacturers will take advantage of this to silently install shovelware on users' machines, like Logitech's "Download Assistant". This will be the new avenue used by advertisers to install themselves in the system tray or browser. Microsoft themselves have endorsed this by silently installing a Windows 10 nag using Windows update.
The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
Considering that this happened even once, I'll never update to a driver that hasn't been out for at least a few weeks. If Win10 doesn't give me that option, then it's a no go from the start.
That's awfully close to the definition of insanity that goes: Doing the same thing under different circumstances and expecting the same result.
Question: Who owns the device drivers for hardware?
In the Linux world, the h/w vendor publishes specs, or conforms to standards, so the kernel guys write drivers and merge it. The distributors like RedHat keep sending updated drivers.
In the Windows World, Microsoft seems to have deep distrust of h/w vendors, despite not making any hardware by themselves. MS does not enjoy any h/w vendor having control of the OS internals, but such control is essential for the h/w to work.
If MS published interface or device driver standards, and adhered to them, then again the device mfrs wouldn't have issues. But MS keeps changing WDDM, DirectX and other interfaces, very often and without prior notice to h/w guys.
Atleast in Linux, if somebody wanted to use a display h/w with just some poor standard such as VESA without any fancy acceleration stuff, they can get it without instability and proprietary shims and stuff. Windows users are doomed by design.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
First thing I did when I installed Windows 10 was set Updates to notify before download and install. It's still in the same place in Group Policy Editor.
"Well, whatever they want to label it as now it's still optional."
Well, it is, but there is a huge difference between pick and choose what driver update you want, and enabling or disabling all driver updates. The former is OK, the latter is bollocks.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Automatic updates are fine in principle.
But every update breaks 1% of the things it hits. It's as simple as that.
For home users, that wasn't a problem, because they have one machine so might survive hundreds of updates before anything goes wrong.
On networks, it's a damn nightmare. Even with homogenous environments, you're looking at one thing broken every update, or thereabouts.
The problem with forcing auto-updates is that it doesn't solve the reasons people turn auto-updates off. The main reason? People have suffered breakage like this of previously perfectly working systems. And to the point they get BSODs or complete failures to boot, not just "oh, something's slightly slower or they moved an icon around".
To a professional environment, it's a 10-minute re-image. To a home user, it's days without the machine while they pay someone to look at it, who does two seconds work and charges a fortune, for something that they aren't likely to understand (and if they tried it themselves, might well end up breaking more than they fix).
It's the wrong way round.
I get that you want to keep thing secure, but breaking graphics drivers for EVERYONE isn't the solution there. In fact, more of a risk is some virus getting on the machine and crippling auto-update anyway. I see that as the only way for the virus to survive any length of time - if it allows random patching then it's entry method will fix itself.
So, auto-patching by default doesn't solve the problem there - malware will still stop them happening and so persist security risks. But users who are following all the guidelines are getting BSOD's and crashes and unbootable computers because of the quality of the updates, not to mention the junk shoved into them (malware scanners, adverts for the next version of Windows, etc.). That's just backwards.
The one thing that annoys me about any software is lack of choice. Why CAN'T I have the old start menu back if I want? It's really not that difficult to supply it as an option. I will go out of my way to reintroduce those options if necessary. I don't care what you want as the default, I care about being able to select MY CHOICE.
And that's what they are planning with Windows 10 updates - removing the choice such that you can't stop a known-bad update propagating to your machine unless you spend lots more money on enterprise-level versions of the OS and dedicate a server to the task. Given the number of bad updates pushed out in just the last year, it's a disaster waiting to happen.
I can, and will, find the option to disable it, just because you MADE me do so. If you'd just put the option as default (like it's always been) but allowed me to disable, I could at least say "Woah, there's a dodgy update for Windows 10 making the news - I will stop it until I'm sure MS has fixed the problem". The alternative is really VM'ing it and rolling back - and if I'm going to have to do that, fuck Windows, basically.
It's a nice sentiment, but MS has proved that it can't be trusted to not put tons of junk into "critical security updates" which it doesn't label properly (and puts in adverts for Windows 10 that you then struggle to rid yourself of into such updates). As such, I can't leave them to make the decision as to what's critical for security and should be forced to my machine, and what's not.
And if an nVidia driver - whether or not it can be fixed by a clean install - might just one day get forcibly updated and cock up a machine, that's not something I want to have on a games machine which has only the barest of connections to the net behind a firewall. It really doesn't need all the latest Windows Updates if all it is is a games machine with, say, Steam, and doesn't download third-party shit and just plays games and goes out on a handful of high-numbered gaming ports. Especially if the risk is some random nVidia driver being shoved onto the machine and breaking it (hell, some drivers for nVidia will ramp up the temperatures etc. on you
The automatically installed amd drivers update is causing problems also. At least for me. If youtube/pandora are open in chrome a full compy lock is incoming. however it does play games without a problem. So I'm upgrading to play games then rolling back to watch youtube. It's a pain in the ass but it makes it work somehow.
you are supossed to remove your drivers and reboot every time the computer ask you, actually you are supossed to remove all the nvidia garbage, then the audio garbage, then the physics driver, and finally the driver itself, in that order, rebooting everytime the computer asks, and then and only then install the new ones, from the desktop and with admin rights to make sure you dont have weird permissions stuff happening, marking clean install box in the installer so it removes more garbage it lets behind. with this process never ever had problems with an nvidia driver, EVER, in my entire life. All of this with ethernet cable removed so windows wont try to fuck your computer with a retarded driver when you restart without one, yes, you will see the desktop in the lowest possible ressolution, for a minute until you install the actual driver
Some peeps even clean up the registry before installing the new ones, Yet this assholes will simply install drivers on top of each other and since windows is magical it will magically work
guess what, it wont, it really wont, it might work for a particular version, but sooner or later something will change in the way they do it and it will break
if i were nvidia i would remove drivers from windows update, because the only way an nvidia driver is going to give you trouble is when you fuck up yourself the install process, but with ati no matter what you do, the driver will ALWAYS stink, its not that their cards stink, is just that their drivers are TERRIBLE. This level playing field of infinite suckness is bad for nvidia, it puts their drivers on the same boat as aids infected ati drivers, and thats reaaaaally baaaad
That is not the definition of insanity and repeating that makes you a moron.
There appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding - on the part of Microsoft - just what a computer is for.
I have a Windows 7 PC which I fire up a few times a month to perform specific tasks. Those tasks are the reason I bought the OS in the first place. I did not buy Windows 7 just so I could install Windows patches. Yes I had automatic updates turned on until a few months ago (The tasks I perform on that machine tend to be towards the end of the month, so the worst turkeys are gone by then) but some security update caused a major update-reboot-fallback loop on my dual-boot machine when I needed it in a hurry so now I only apply patches when various sources indicate they have seen no problems with them.
From what I hear of Apple, they are not much better.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
" Patching automatically works fine as a default for home users,"
I beg to differ. I'm smarter than a loaf of bread and don't need the Dilbert(TM) model of computer with one giant button that's already pushed at the factory. I'm thinking that perhaps they should put out something like Windows Basic edition. It's set up with almost everything on it set to automatic and can only be serviced by Microsoft. THEY can do the tech support for the loaves of bread out there. Give the rest of us the non-idiot edition and let us do things correctly. I'd been contemplating switching to 10, now I'm REALLY happy I didn't. This auto update bullshit was going to fail from the start, Microsoft has been notorious about their 'updates' breaking shit since the 90's! NO WAY I'd put anything for them on automatic.
Your mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's been opened.
Simple really. Once the machine is installed and working properly, block the update server in your firewall.
The sensible thing to do is to upgrade your drivers only every few months and only move to versions that are generally recognized as stable and whose known issues have well-tested workarounds.
That's what the Windows Update drivers are supposed to be. It's Nvidia's fault for not following the Microsoft guidelines, and I hope MS comes down hard on them for this. Same with FTDI, they should have been severely sanctioned for bricking hardware with a driver update.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
"Always going to the most recent Nvidia drivers has been a risky proposition for years, on Win 7, Vista, XP etc."
Bull. Shit.
I laugh at all the idiots that purchased Windows 10
You do understand that this automatic update is only for the Windows Home version. The Pro version (which is what I would guess most people reading this will be using) doesn't have the automatic update with no way to disable 'feature'. That being said I do think hiding the way to disable driver updates so far down the menu stack is a bad idea. The only people looking for likely have some idea what it does and disabling driver updates isn't likely to cause a serious issue since the user can always manually download and install those same drivers or newer ones.
Hai nVidia!
You can haz driver update!
No more cheeseburgers!
(Tried in all caps, but slashdot faeries didn't like it)
MS changed their mind and will now allow you to hide/block driver updates: https://support.microsoft.com/...
Perhaps she is trying to capture installation instructions and test them? There is no way to know what testing Snowgirl is doing, but it is very likely there is a good reason for multiple reinstalls.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Yeah, I occasionally have this issue during gaming. I always assumed it was some temperature throttle, but it does sometimes happen early in a game session which would point to it not being thermal.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Obviously the push is on to sell more copies of the professional version rather than the home version. Either get to play crash test dummy for M$ or pay the extra $99, bwa hah hah, suckers.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
go out into it once in a while , no really , while out pay those bills ...be sooo safe
Just another reason to NOT run Windows.
MS seems to have released a troubleshooting tool to block these kinds of updates: http://www.zdnet.com/article/m...
This should be on NVidia, not Microsoft. Their latest drivers often don't play nice with other hardware components and you can't fault MS for that. Suppressing automatic video driver updates and letting people go directly to their site to load the drivers would cause the same issue so I don't see how this is Microsoft's fault. Driver updates have always been a finicky process and always will be. Also I'd love a detailed explanation on how a video driver can "break" a computer.
Why would you want the Pro version except for the privelege of paying more for it?
Also, the idea that you need to run the "Pro" version of anything just to have some measure of control over your consumer goods is just assinine.
The main thing you seem to be getting here is the same interface that existed for updates in the previous "consumer" release.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Ive
Never had these
Issues with an apple.
Yeah no the rage issue happened on ATi cards aswell. It was due to their mega texture system pushing huge textures to the gpu.
It appears there's no notion of "optional" updates anymore
there's a checkbox buried deep in system settings to prevent drivers from getting upgraded
?
Get the popcorn and Good and Plentys in hand, This is going to be fscking awesome! Stuff quits working, people gnashing teeth and tearning clothes, and the Shills going shrill blaming it on the victims.........
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You do understand that this automatic update is only for the Windows Home version. The Pro version (which is what I would guess most people reading this will be using) doesn't have the automatic update with no way to disable 'feature'.
Well Thank God!
There's some more info in that EULA too:
Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice. I added the emphasis - interesting stuff this. Are they saying that unless they are authorized, you can't update your programs? I have a lot of programs that are updated on a weekly basis - sounds like a problem in the making.
BUt back to the problem at hand.
Note that Windows Pro does not escape unscathed:
Windows 10 Pro users will have a little flexibility; they'll be able to switch from the mainstream release to the Current Branch for Business (CBB). This will give some control over when updates are deployed. While the CBB will essentially track the consumer release, it will allow feature updates to be held back for some amount of time; Anderson quotes a Microsoft executive saying that companies will have around eight months to prepare for each new feature update. Delay the feature update any further and they'll also be prevented from receiving security updates.
Windows enterprise is the only version that approaches the present situation.
If someone wants to pretend that the vast majority of users are just going to sit back and cheer when their computers quit working, or that nothing else exists outside the enterprise, well, okay, but that's still just pretending.
And if Enterprise can still operate the same way as before, isn't that just saying the other systems are working on a pre-broken paradigm?
I suspect the future will look like some of the Windows 7 updates in the past year or so that bitched up people's computers, than the patch had to be patched, and fun fun fun.
There are still some Windows 7 patches that have to be blocked from many computers. Is Microsoft Windows 10 so stable now that this sitution will no longer exist? That after every update/patch, everyone's computers will work 100 percent? A complete turnaround, I'd say.
Which is why I say grab the popcorn and Good 'n Plenty's folks, this is gonna be a fun movie. The Blockbuster of 2015.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Why would you want the Pro version except for the privelege of paying more for it?
Actually, the pro version only grants you a little more time before you update or are shut off.
If you want the good old days, ya gotta go to the Enterprise version.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Hosts files are, as you know, the best way to block ads served from remote adservers.
This is a long story, I will try to keep it short.
I gave away a bunch of modern (but older and not in use) hardware to the CompSci department at a local elementary school. I even transfered all licenses to them (which meant I had to do some work because most of the boxes had an MSDN install on them). I shoved all of my keyboards out the door and my mice and all of those things. Well, pretty much all.
Then, on a lark (I was not even drunk) I went on a rampage. I installed every single flavor of the top twenty listed at DistroWatch. I did this all in VMware first. Anything that worked got stuffed onto at least one computer around the house. I am a geek - I have a lot of computers including a whole lab and server room in my basement.
So, happy as a clam I meandered from room to room and computer to computer to configure and play. I happily got VNC working on pretty much all of them (I have not found a BSD that makes me happy and CentOS is really bloated. Ubuntu is not cool. I need to try some other desktop environments in Ubuntu. I love Mint with Cinnamon.)
So, happy as a clam... I finally discover, to my dismay, that I have but one Windows system left. Not to fear... I root around and find a second one that missed my manic upgrade. Now I have a Windows desktop. The trouble is, my desktop is Vista... Now, Vista is awesome after SP1 and even better after SP2. It is on great hardware and it runs fine.
So, keyboard time... Umm... I gave those away! Damn it. Well, I have others...
Now I could swap them out but, keep in mind, I am inherently lazy. I wish this were not true. I worked hard so I could be lazy. I would drive to the kitchen if I could. Oddly I am not fat but I digress.
So I root around and find a keyboard. It is a COMPAQ branded critter. It is older than I expected, I suppose. It must be as I can find not one driver for it. In fact, it doe not appear to need a driver. Yet, every time I have since started this system it happily asks me for a driver. By happy I mean it insists on one. If I tell it to go find one, tell it where one is, or anything it spits at me and calls me names.
However, if I let it do its thing UNTIL it spits at me of its own volition and just close the damned thing then it not only works just fine but it also has the added functionality of all the other keys. Every generic keyboard driver, and I have tried more than a few, is spit out as being not made for the device and no - no I can not tell it to use it and like it.
Now I could, and likely will, swap it out with another that does work. I have yet to get around to doing so and figure that it may be a bunch of effort finding one that Just Works®. I could also buy a new one but, as I mentioned, I just got rid of a bunch of stuff just to be rid of it. I accumulate way too much stuff and the larger the house is the more I will accumulate. I have storage spaces scattered to the four winds and own more superfluous junk than any human should. The only thing stopping me from being a hoarder is the fact that I hire someone to clean my house and I hate clutter for very long so I keep things organized, otherwise I'd be some embarrassed gent on the television in one of those night time reality shows.
My point is that the Windows driver process is broken. I used to be able to tell my computer to use the driver I specified even if it did not match what it was expecting. Now? It just so happens that the driver it bitches about not having (and checking drivermgmt.msc is not listed) is not needed because the damned thing works just fine without it. Why can I not save it in that state? Even the function buttons work - such as volume up and down. All while it claims to not have a driver and only after letting it do its thing and then quitting in the middle of it when it says it can not find the online driver and wants me to specify a volume to look for it. The process is broken and broken at a number of places.
I say this as a huge fan of Microsoft. I honestly feel that they have driven inn
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I like to play a bunch so I have owned an MSDN subscription for many years now. I buy the top-most subscription because I want access to all of it. I tend to pick and choose across the spectrum. This is, obviously, not a solution for everyone but it works for me. AFAIK (and this is actually trickier than one might expect) I only have two Windows-based PCs in the house. I still keep my MSDN subscription though. (I do have bare metal restore options that let me put a Windows OS back on the PCs pretty quickly should I ever have a need to do so.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You're right it's a voltage throttle.
Om, nomnomnom...
They did do that. They call it "Home Edition." The phraseology may be confusing but it is essentially what you are requesting.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The FAIL FAST paradigm taken to a whole new level.
Not true. Automatic updates can be disabled permanently in Pro via GPE.
it is not only game apps that are interfiered with , i'v had ms update something in 7 only to have this update chrash my pc cos it clashed with another ms program within windows 7
the power of men in charge of words over men in charge of machines surpasses all wondering S WEIL