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Researchers: The Thermostat In Your Office May Be Sexist
sciencehabit writes: If you're constantly bundling up against your office building's air conditioning, blame Povl Ole Fanger. In the 1960s, this Danish scientist developed a model, still used in many office buildings around the world, which predicts comfortable indoor temperatures for the average worker. The problem? The average office worker in the 1960s was a 40-year-old man sporting a three-piece suit. But fear not, those for whom the 'work sweater' has become a mandatory addition to office attire: Researchers say they have built a better model.
I of course could strip down to my Mankini. The women would be distracted I am sure. Or them ladies might 'put on' some clothing. Amazing Cardigan or Scarf ....
I'm not allowed to be naked ... I tried.
Gritty.
Sounds more like "slashdot is shilling for clickbait." In other news, users continue to flee slashdot in droves, DICE perplexed as to why site is becoming massively unprofitable.
Om, nomnomnom...
Since TFS doesn't say, the old model says 21C is the best, while the "new" model says 24C is the best. The problem is, of course, that one can wear a sweater in colder temperatures, but it's difficult (or inappropriate) to cope with higher temperature.
As a young fat (by European standards, not American) male in a job with no format attire requirement, I usually wear a t-shirt and shorts in the summer, so there's not much left to take off. I'm still more comfortable at lower temperatures (22-23). I actually like wearing a hoodie, but I never do at the office because it's too hot there.
And no, opening a window (as suggested in TFA) is not a solution when there's 30 degrees outside.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
Even for a 40+-year-old male offices are too cold most of the time. And in southern Arizona the settings meant you hit a literally 40F+ wall walking out the building door. That isn't healthy. Although if you have to err it's better to have it set on the cool side, people can always add a sweater to stay warmer but you usually can't legally take clothing off if it's too warm.
72F is fine. Some like it hotter, some cooler. Gotta pick something, and 72F is a decent average.
They are just looking for reasons to save money. And be "green".
(And you wouldn't be so cold if you put on, you know, clothes. But that is "sexist" of me, so never mind ...)
In most offices it is very warm in winter, and very cold in summer. In winter, the heater is turned up too high, and in summer, the airco makes it way too cold. For the environment it's better to make the office just a little bit cooler than outside, and in winter, just warm enough to be comfortable. That will save a lot of energy, and prevent global warming. Which makes me think: is global warming sexist? Does global warming favor women?
no, I don't have a sig
The thermostat in my office is sexist by virtue of who controls it. It gets turned to minimum when some people in the office are too hot, and to maximum when those people are too cold. Were it not for equal opportunity policies, we could put it under control of a qualified individual who would set it to an appropriate temperature somewhere near the middle and leave it there (perhaps adjusting down in winter and up in summer to compensate for the type of clothing people prefer to wear in different seasons and also save some energy).
I've had to purchase woolen jumpers, business jackets, 220v heated floor mats and I wear a full length white undershirt under my shirt.
The only time I'm warm in the office is if I load up on a heap of carbohydrates or sugar (my metabolism is toasty when I overeat) besides that, it's often far, far too cold.
I find it quite frustrating, sure too hot will send you to sleep but too cold is also awful.
If 24C is a suitable medium and the men would prefer 21C, doesn't that imply that the women would prefer 27C - that's sounds pretty hot. Also I'm not sure that raising office temperatures from 21C to 24C will save energy the way the article suggests. It will in some places - indeed probably quite a lot of places in the summer, but overall I guess more places require heating. It is probably also more expensive to heat than to cool, since heating is at least sometimes based on direct heat generation whereas cooling is always based on a heat pump.
Owl tried to think of something wise to say, but couldn't.
because they turn off A/C over weekends and whatnot to "save money" where it's probably cheaper to just maintain the temperature rather than start having to cool everything again.
My apartment is rarely cool enough either because it's from the 60's and has shitty insulation and we've had it break consistently every year for the last 3 years. The complex is run by a corporate office out of another state and local management has changed 12 times in 7 years, so rather than replacing anything it limps along with duck tape and prayers. My electric bill was $190 last month, 960 sq feet should be easier to cool.
I'm a real man. I work outside doing manly work. All you pussies in your offices need to grow a pair and come outdoors.
Whining about how your little cubicle isn't just how you like it is not MANLY !
Come outdoors and meet the men's men !
It's 102 degrees in there, the women all have it adjusted to insane warm levels and are STILL wearing sweaters in the summer.
I swear that I saw a couple of geckos running across the floor last time I dropped off company credit card receipts.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I work in southern europe, and normally here people like it warm - so I am lucky I have an office mostly for myself. For me the comfortable settings in summer time are somewhere between 15 and 19. When I do get to go myself to communal areas, it is disgraceful, they like to run it at 25-26, and when someone is there alone and puts it colder, they passively-aggressively set the temperature to +30 afterwards when no one is looking.
Anyway, at temperatures below 28 deg c, simple fans can make people feel a couple of degrees cooler. Most offices do not permit space heaters, but I find people sneaking it in anyway, but small personal fans are usually permitted. I have always depended on these personal fans to control the micro climate of my personal work space. Can be used to deflect the air from the vent away sometimes, towards me other times, towards the office door to encourage circulation...
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
When we moved into our new building with sealed windows and a management system, I fiddled about with it a bit until everyone was generally happy with it. It's exactly 24 at my desk as I type this, so I'd agree with that being a sensible temperature. 21 sounds much too cold. We wouldn't put up with that for too long.
I used to own some snakes. The recommended practice was to put the heat lamp at one end of the cage, giving the reptile a choice of temperatures. Maybe there's a lesson here.
In most places I've worked have the thermostat locked behind a plexiglass enclosure.
Closer inspection, in every case, reveals that the lock is for show only; it having been jimmied long ago. Which is good since nobody has the key anyway.
And that's okay except for those who decide that since it is way to hot/cold for them, they'll turn it all the way in the other direction rather than to a temperature they prefer.
This article is implying that women need different temperatures. It is sexist.
Article implying that someone wearing a wool coat over a woolen vest over a long sleeve shirt over an undershirt prefers a lower temperature than someone wearing a thigh-length skirt and bare shoulders seems to be articulating basic thermodynamics. Clearly the solution is to popularize "basketball uniform" as masculine business costume, so we can all be comfortable at 24 oC.
Use to work with several menopausal women who wanted things noticable cooler than the others, and ultimately it was agreed that either the women could walk around near nude or the rest could wear sweaters. Sweaters were the easiest compromise.
So by the researchers findings, is that ageist or sexist? I see that attempting to accomodate with the least amount of fuss is far too difficult in this PC age, and now the battle of the sexes is even fought with the thermostat.
Imagine my surprise when they didn't differentiate between older and younger women, upbringing (feral children are known to run naked in the snow, delighting in the cold, and those in northern climates tend to prefer things cooler than those in the south), or any of the numerous other factors that affect perception of temperature.
Nope, just sexism.
Clearly the solution is to popularize "basketball uniform" as masculine business costume, so we can all be comfortable at 24 oC.
At 24C I'm not even comfortable naked and I'm pretty sure that nobody else would be comfortable with me being naked either.
"His name was James Damore."
I think it's clothing design that's to blame, not thermostats. Women's casual business clothes tend to be a lot thinner and flimsier than men's. Skirts are cooler than pants. Women's t-shirts have lower necklines and much shorter sleeves than men's. And women's clothes in general emphasize display more than comfort and tend to expose a lot more flesh than men's.
Regarding another poster writing about Arizona: Definitely! I was in Phoenix for a conference a while back and I happened to have a nasty cold. I had the choice of suffering in 38C heat outside or freezing at what felt like about 17C inside. It was crazy!
I'm pretty sure the answers are everything but sexism.
Let's start with differing official and fashion-driven clothing standards. Women and men dress differently. Women's clothes tend to made of more sheer material and they generally wear less of it, especially younger women. Women get to adapt to hot weather with skirts, light blouses, Even though many men don't have to wear suits, men are still expected to wear pants and in some cases jackets even if ties aren't required, but there are still places that require old-school suit and tie apparel.
Then there's HVAC systems that were designed for buildings or floors when they were built but not changed to new floor layouts. In those rare times where somebody thinks of the computer network and invites the network guy to a couple of remodel/new space meetings, I've heard building maintenance managers suggest changes to ducting and airflow balance and heard it rejected outright. So now you've got a redesigned/re-purposed space that has poor airflow characteristics -- some areas end up hot because they don't get good airflow, some end up cold because of it. Often the areas that are hot are more uncomfortable, so the thermostat gets changed to try to fix it when the ductwork needs to be changed instead.
And it wouldn't surprise me that in many buildings built before the desktop computer and the "open" office plan became commonplace that zoned heating can be tricked by having a bunch of people and computers concentrated in one place, locally heating an area near a temperature sensor that causes badly balanced airflow to over cool spaces further from the temperature sensor.
Then there's the fact that HVAC equipment doesn't last forever and I doubt that replacement and repair decisions are always made with ideal climate control goals. I'd wager that cost is almost always bigger factor, allowing the cheaper fix/replacement to get made, making the overall system somewhat worse than it was before.
And then there's the fact that no matter how good the HVAC system is tuned, some non-trivial percentage of people will be unhappy and some of these people will be the more dramatic types who amplify the perception that the space is too hot or too cold often leading to counter-productive changes.
As many have said, part of the problem is the acceptable business attire differences for men and women. The women where I work typically wear a thin shirt and a pair of shorts or skirt. Footwear is a pair of sandals.
For men acceptable attire is a shirt, over a T-shirt (I even got hassled because I was wearing a tank-top under my shirt one day), and a tie. The tie mandates that the shirt is buttoned up to the top. Then add long pants and full coverage shoes and socks. To top that off, we are "encouraged" to wear a coat when not engaged in physical activities.
It should come as no surprise that the men want the building a lot cooler; or allow the fashion to change so the men can wear lighter clothing.
Slapping the word sexist on everything just to keep up with modern trendes diminishes the value of the word. The dataset the thermostat was based off of is no longer relevant in a more balanced workplace. Also a workplace that no longer requires the 3 piece suit and tie. I too despise the arctic conditions the offices are kept at. Imagine the cost savings turning up a few degrees.
Last summer we kept our house at 78F (about 25C) but it was relatively dry. This summer we dropped it down to 74F due to an extremely wet June/early July just to get the moisture out of the air.
At work it is similar, I'm in a large open office area. Even if the temperature is reading 72F, you can feel immediately if it stops working because the humidity creeps up. It can get uncomfortable quickly in business casual dress. Of course there are a few women who constantly complain they are cold, walk around wrapped in blankets and wearing gloves with the finger tips cut off.. but overall it's not too bad.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
thus I fail to see what they are complaining about. Maybe put on some clothes so I can't see your breasts / buttocks / rough-sex bruises. --Legal.Troll
Exactly the same here. I lived in a house in Africa for 4 years and the AC in my bedroom was at 19 C 24/7.
Somebody would do a study saying the the high temperature is a sexist way to get women to show more skin. You just can't win in these situations. And I see nothing wrong with the work sweater. I'm a guy and I often carry one. Also on airplanes I'm always freezing in long pants and sleeves, although I see plenty of people in shorts.
The anorexic 80-lb female will finally be able to forgo her sweater, while every guy in the place will be sweating like a politician at the Pearly Gates.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
When you mention your weight, that actually brought up a good point. The increasing levels of obesity in this country probably means that those workers need a cooler temperature as well. Many large individuals don't seem to cope well with heat, probably because of their lower surface area to mass ratios.
Clearly the solution is to popularize "basketball uniform" as masculine business costume
So, would I be able to buy some new Jordans and write them off as a business expense?
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
Office thermostats are sexist?
Have I a story for you!!!
I put white bread in my toaster and it does not like that; the toaster makes the bread come out a darker colour. I can even put wholemeal bread in, and that is not dark enough for the toaster. Even when I put some of the bread back in the toaster after it has done its thing, it comes out even darker still. My toaster is definitely racist.
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
It seems like trend is way ahead of the news story on this one.
The office buildings I have worked in for the past several years seem to set to broil year 'round.
Yeah, I am an overweight 40yo male and I wish the thermostat was a few degrees more sexist....
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
If the average office worker was predominately dressed in a 3 piece suit then its not sexist its accurate for the time and probably out of date due to changing work place norms of various types.
There's no need to single out men. Put a woman in a three piece suit and she'll probably find 21-22C fairly comfortable.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The cooler the better.
You can always put on a sweater and layer up if necessary, there's a limit to how much you're allowed to take off to try and keep cool....
75F is fine...provided you keep the RH down at 40%. But that's expensive because you still have to remove all the latent heat. 70F and 80% RH is just cheaper.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Basically rehashes the Washington Post article from last week. Consensus: always possible to add clothes. Only so many clothes can be taken off, and it's not just men in 3-piece suits who sweat. Can buy personal heaters. Can't buy personal air conditioners. Deal with it.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Eh comrades? Eh?
PLEASE stop with this "everything in the world is sexist against women" horseshit. You're just making yourselves look like a bunch of jackasses.
"Stuff that matters", indeed.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Fuck your "Old White" shit! Suck my cock you nigger, spick, fuck-tard.
Triggered!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Men get warmer because we're doing all of the work.
=)
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Solution is smash the patriarchy!
23.5C (~74F) is the absolute maximum temperature for me to be comfortable...and it's not even the temperature that gets me. Here in Georgia (USA), when the thermostat is set to 23.5 the timing of the compressor is just shy of perfect. At just the moment when the humidity reaches the level where the sweat isn't being wicked away, the compressor will kick in and drop the dew point in the room below 50% humidity. I think if we ran dehumidifiers instead of AC around here, we could probably save a considerable bit on energy costs by setting the cooling system to 26-27C (78-80F roughly) and letting the dehumidifier keep the humidity 50%. Hell, use a clean enough system in the dehumidifying process and you'll get a decent supply of good distilled potable water out of it too.
That is all.
I was taught the 75 F/50RH in college years ago, as well as how to use charts that adjust for levels of clothing expected in space, gender and age to determine the optimum temperature and humidity goal for that space. This isn't new or news. My professor had been designing systems for that for years. Not new.
ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
If you feel suitably qualified, simply remove the battery (if remote controlled) or a connecting wire from the the controller.
My anectodotal evidence is that woman will invariably feel coder. I'm fine with heat, just don't like humidity. So even a quick blast in a sealed hotel room to scrub the air, will have my GF complaining in about 2 minutes.
The one woman in our IT department (of 12) will wear thin and skimpy, but will then (1) complain it is too cold when the temperature drops to just below the point of paper catching alight, and (2) start her own heater in the winter, thereby stopping the heating coming on for anyone else. She is always first in the office.
Actually, the problems is not if it too hot or too cold, or if the XX chromosomes feel it more or less than the XY chromosomes, it's GIVE MY A F$@3cking office of my own and I'll control the heating or cooling in the office. Open Plan office suck for physical and mental health and getting any real work done.
Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
That's precisely the sort of sentiment "post anonymously" was invented for. Bye bye Karma :)
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Also very uncomfortable and musky. We are taught in current state of the art HVAC design engineering that most office spaces and spaces generally should be designed for 75F, 50RH, which is reasonable, although a bit chilly, and we have standard AC units that cool the air to 55 degrees, giving a constant output to the room of 50RH and 75F. Any warmer and the AC isn't really cooling anyways, any colder and the air gets chilly feeling immediately. And it's been taught that way for at least a decade now, so this isn't new.
ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Some bosses aren't that smart.
Anecdote: I ues to work in an old, uninsulated cinder block building built in the 1950s. The temperature was kept at 80F all year. During the summer, I figured that this was to save on A/C costs (older buildings not having been designed with modern electrical loads in mind). But it was the same thing in the winter. And with no insulation, that mush have taken a lot of energy to heat. Cheapskate management would logicaly have turned the thremostat down.
Then, we had the Nisqually earthquake in the middle of winter. The facility was shut down for a couple of days while engineers assesed damage. And then we went back to work.68F in the morning, rising to about 72 in the afternoon. Not bad. The reason was that the gas boilers had not yet been inspected and authorized to restart. So we had not heat appart from that generated by occupants and equipment. A week or so later, when the boilers were fired up, it was back to 80F.
A few months later, I ran into one of the facilities engineers and asked him about this. It turns out that management did indeed order the thermostat setpoints up to 80F to save on air conditioning costs. But the HVAC plant was so old, the thermostats were single setpoint type. And when the A/C was cranked up to 80, so was the heat. nd management consisited of a bunch of 'Type A personality' assholes who wouldn't let the thermostats be adjusted or replaced with modern units without approval. And nobody had the balls to explain the systems opertion to them.
Have gnu, will travel.
I have seen some other articles that address the carbon cost of air conditioning, and some stating that air conditioning HCFC refrigerants are causing global warming.
I would not be surprised it this is one of many lead ups to "we must get rid or reduce air conditioning in order to save the environment" movement.
It easy to get warm by adding clothing than getting cool in a hot environment.
I have a suggestion, if they change the work place to suit women at the expense of men, men stop wearing deodorant.
After a while, the complainers will be begging for the thermostat to be turned down to get rid of the smell...
Jeeze! They could've just asked me. That's where I've always set my thermostat. Must be my feminine side acting out.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
It's the socks.
The real sexism seems to be that some businesses still require males to wear one or two layers of wool over a layer or two of cotton and the entire body except hands and face to be covered with clothing, while the female uniform is somewhere along the lines of "whatever, so long as we can't see nipple, but preferably thinner fabric and more exposed skin." Evening that out would go a long way to making everyone more comfortable at a given temperature.
They constantly move the thermostat up and down in large swings base don how they feel *RIGHT NOW*.
Only cool place in the building is labs and server rooms, so sometimes that's were I move when I work nights & weekends.
Seems about right for the bean counters. But we have the same battle at home. I'm perfectly happy to let the in-house temps drop to 58F in winter, and I do when my wife is out of town. It's perfectly comfortable to me, but my wife would stab me in my sleep and burn my corpse for warmth if I did it when she was here. In summer 74F is about the maximum I'd like my house to be, and even then my wife is wearing a sweatshirt.
Not everybody who works in an office is wearing a suit. The steady flow of delivery men, maintenance, security guards, server jockeys, etc must greatly appreciate it being at 68F instead of 75F.
If some women in offices, would actually WEAR CLOTHES, they wouldn't have that problem. Also, TAKE A SWEATER TO WORK. It's easier to ADD a layer of clothes, versus taking a layer off (although if women want to strip in the office, I don't have a problem with it). Quit bitching! One of the funnier parody videos I've seen in a while. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
your story reminds me of so many buildings with goofy HVAC systems especially older buildings when the boilers go down, building will get hot and humid. Or in winter very cold. Geez why not replace it. Whoa not so fast don't have the money (even though lots of budget for software licenses which total cost accumulates to sky-high pretty quick.) At a ASHRAE meeting talking with a few people I realized not many people outside that organization knows how to properly design HVAC systems. Or when it is done, there is a non-HVAC person will compromise original design.
mfwright@batnet.com
is a rack-mounted server, and getting an A/C balance that keeps the servers cool without freezing the humans is a problem.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
I go to work in shorts and a t-shirt, but just three computers in the office and it's suddenly 78F. I start feeling uncomfortable at 76-77. Give me 68-72F any day and I'll be much more productive. Those temperatures also include the winter months. Why turn the heat so high?
I'd love to believe in a cabal of evil sexist building managers setting temperatures to make men in suits comfortable and women cold. That'd be a fixable problem. But in every building I've worked in with central AC, the main system is either "off" or "on" (on a schedule) and blows very cold air through the main ducts. Then the individual thermostats control dampers for branches or registers (not necessarily in a sensible fashion, and some or all thermostats may actually be dummies). So why is it always cold? Because the system is typically either oversized entirely or is sized so it will work on all but the hottest days. So, usually cold.
Come on, people, isn't it obvious and consensually settled that unprecedented Climate Change is ultimately the problematic source of this unsustainable problem?
It's a nice comfortable temperature for the house in summer. As for winter, wear a coat during the trips to and from the car and wear summer like clothes underneath. Drop the requirements for formal wear from the office dress code altogether. In most cases, drop the requirement to go to the office altogether.
Dear researchers,
Never go full potato.
"On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
Give everyone in the office a vote every 30 minutes. The unused votes accumulate up to a months worth. The election determines if and how the temperature changes during that period. Add a time window during which there aren't normally workers in the office and set a baseline temp based on energy conservation, if there are any votes during that period the baseline is overruled and reverts to the last temp of "in office" hours for maybe 4 periods to be extended with any additional periods with votes.
The theromostat automatically drifts to the most stable temperature range everyone is good with and both accounts for empty offices and people working late. This minimizes people with big thermal swings causing big swings in office temp so there is no need for dummy thermostats.
Could we - just once in a while - maybe point out an obsolete standard without implying it's part of a vast secret male conspiracy to make women uncomfortable? 'Cause if that's really what is going on, somebody isn't tell me, and that's racist. Or sexist. Or somethingist.
At my former office we called the secretaries (all female) the lizard people. They liked it around 75-80 and brought their own heaters in.
An AC is a heat pump, moving heat energy from one set of coils to another. Typically there is a wall between the sets of coils. Gas expands and cools on one set of the coils, reducing the air temperature and causing condensation on the coils (removing water and humidity from the air).
The gas then travels through the wall where it compressed which heats it up (PV=nRT). The heat is dissipated in another set of coils/through a heat exchanger (radiator). With a dehumidifier, the heating and cooling sides are in the same room (no wall), so you have the effect of a cold coil that removes water (through condensation), but does not heat as any heat that is removed by the cooling coils is equalized by heat put back in through the radiator.
tl;dr: Dehumidifiers do not save energy compared with an AC only unit
Be sure to get the thermostat's consent before changing the set temperature. Not doing so may be more than just sexist...
now we will be all sweaty in our suits and trust me nobody wants that. just wear the damn sweater.
To quote a co-worker when the idea of raising the temperature in the office came up:
"You can put on a sweater, I can't take off my skin. Leave it cooler."
Actually this is it, 13c - 30c (~55f - 86f) is tolerable without caring, preferred right around 23c (73f). And I'm not terribly thin, bmi based I'm obese (okay I have ~24% body fat but that's still a bigger guy) 95kg @ 179cm (~210lbs @ 5'10).
Then again I live in Seattle which is apparently the land of no air conditioners even though this year it's routinely hit ~36c.
WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
Dew formation depends on dirty water. If you remove the impurities in the air, then your condensention efficiencies will go down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I would mod this up if I had points. The last paragraph is something everyone should take to heart. The situation in this country is insane at this point.
I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable here in my suit and waistcoat. ...
Actually, I'm working in shorts and a t-shirt. It's summer, for gosh darned sakes!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I have a much better answer. Recognize that 70F is too cold, and it should be 78F.
Oh, wait -- we are now being told that 78 is too harsh for the environment, and we need to raise our thermostat to 82F.
** But ... somehow, it's OK for an office to jump all the way down to 70F? And then pass those expenses on to the consumer? So I'm having to pay for your A/C when I'm forced into tier-3 rates when I cannot even get close to your "comfort" level? And it turns out that your "comfort" level is based on wearing three layers of clothing and finger gloves to stay warm?
Typo: the readership REACTED emotionally
Remember typing pools - oh that's right, you don't. There were a LOT of women in office workplaces earlier as well. It's very likely to have been a greater percentage of female office workers back then. Maybe this is a storm in a teacup due to the comfort of one Danish guy alone being considered thus just a very poor model to start with.