Slashdot Mirror
Carbon Dating Shows Koran May Predate Muhammad
HughPickens.com writes: Brian Booker writes at Digital Journal that carbon dating suggests the Koran, or at least portions of it, may actually be older than the prophet Muhammad himself, a finding that if confirmed could rewrite early Islamic history and shed doubt on the "heavenly" origins of the holy text. Scholars believe that a copy of the Koran held by the Birmingham Library was actually written sometime between 568 AD and 645, while the Prophet Mohammad was believed to have been born in 570 AD and to have died in 632 AD. It should be noted, however, that the dating was only conducted on the parchment, rather than the ink, so it is possible that the Koran was simply written on old paper. Some scholars believe, however, that Muhammad did not receive the Koran from heaven, as he claimed during his lifetime, but instead collected texts and scripts that fit his political agenda. "This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran's genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven," says Keith Small, from the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library. "'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged," says Historian Tom Holland. "and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions."
Update: 09/01 17:32 GMT by S : There was a typo in the dates used by the original linked article — in the press release from the University of Birmingham, the date range given for the parchment is between 568 AD and 645 AD, which overlaps more closely with Muhammad's lifetime. The dates and link have been fixed now in the summary. Historians say this new information highlights the uncertainty surrounding the emergence of such religious texts, rather than being a major upheaval.
Ooops.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Death threats.
"Some scholars believe, however, that Muhammad did not receive the Quran from heaven, as he claimed during his lifetime..."
My brain died a little bit just from reading that.
Science debunks religion once again.
I am sure that this time those religious folks will come around...
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
ok first off, i am not islamist, fuck muhammed and fuck allah.
however, a. carbon dating is not that precise. as much as koran and muhammed is bullshit, this report is also bullshit. the shit could have been written in old paper, or simply the carbon dating maybe was not that precise.
we all know all the prophets including mohammed and jesus and david, ate some schrooms and climbed on the mountain and thought they were downloading some shit from god, but not true.
be modern, and dont believe in all this bullshit kids.
thank you
Religion fiiiiiiight!!!!
"545 AD and 568"
1) This was a typo. It was between 568 and 645 AD.
Here's the original article:
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/ne...
2) They dated the paper, not the ink. It was common to scrape and reuse paper. It also only dates the time the plant or animal died.
"545 AD and 568"
Can carbon dating be that precise?
The Daily Mail link has "Carbon dating found the pages were produced between 568AD and 654AD" which seems like a more reasonable range.
Hope you don't get shot or blown up by followers of the "religion of peace" for your work.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Go ahead, show me that a plurality of Christians believed that all non-believers should be put to death.
So it's more like the Bible, then?
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
People believe what they want to believe – this will make no difference. While the carbon dating is somewhat ambiguous (and gives more than enough wiggle room for believers), this will similarly give those who don’t believe in Islam, the complete certainty this completely disproves Islam without any further consideration.
I myself do not believe in Sky-Faeries, and many here will rush to blame Religion for most of mankind’s woes (or perhaps more specifically Islam more than most) but the real problem is adherence to any ideological Dogma and cherry picking or distorting facts to fit your Dogma.
Don’t be expect to win any friends or converts by trying to push this down Islam throat as proof Mohammad is not divine. It will be seen as a Zionist/Christian/American plot to deceive the faithful.
Letter To Iran
Pretty sure Muslims worldwide will claim these findings are offensive and disrespectful to Islam and as such we will put them aside and pretend they don't exist. Which is pretty much the modus operandi from the West for anything that might offend Muslims.
So they set up double-blind studies where half the group is given a placebo prayer and the other half is given a real prayer?
I think the fact that the pages of the Koran do not glow with unearthly swirling lights or set fire to the hands of un-believers is a better indicator it did not come from heaven.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I wonder how many people will die over this revelation?
I haven't commented in a long time, but the reporting on this subject is heavily biased to support the pre-determined conclusion that the manuscript predates Mohammed (pbuh). The Daily Mail is guilty of this (shock! horror!) and so is the summary with its strategic "typo".
From the Mail article, Carbon dating places the manuscript between 568 and 645AD, while Mohammed is thought to have lived between 570 and 632AD. Most intelligent persons would take a quick glance at those dates and be able to dismiss the headlines outright. The range on the dating is nowhere near precise enough to make such a bold statement which is obviously meant to be inflammatory.
Also, as others have rightly stated, the dating is for the parchment, not the ink itself. It is perfectly possible for the parchment to have been produced and not been used for a length of time. Writing paraphernalia was extremely precious at that time; they may have been saved for something important.
Finally, while it is correct that the FULL Quran was not compiled in written form until after the prophet's death, and was primarily stored in memory of the followers, that does not preclude writing completely! The discovered script contains only a couple of chapters, and is not a complete version.
tl;dr: inaccurate and sensationalist headline and reporting on results which may actually point to the opposite.
Well, in absence of scientific evidence, if you just read the thing and have to decide between:
- The guy made it up to fit his political agenda
- The guy got it from a superpowered entity
Honestly, there's no way you can find the later simpler and more plausible. Especially after reading that part where men are allowed to marry up to four wives except the prophet who could marry as many as he wanted...
But it is always cool to have scientific evidence when you can get ones.
Video of some good progressive thrash music
Muhammad had horrible handwriting so Allah had to ghost write it for him and all he had lying around was a decades old ream of paper.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
... that a key tenet of the Muslim faith is that the Koran is the unaltered word of God. This belief is perhaps even more immutable than the proscription against the iconography of Mohammed which has led to so much violence. Do not expect these findings to be accepted or go down lightly in the Muslim world.
Which is why the Orthodox Christian (e.g. Catholic) Old testament contains more books than the Hebrew Bible.
I thought it was because their signal-to-noise ratio was lower.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Really? This would come as a surprise to all the Jews READING the Torah in their synagogues at the time of Christ.
Um, no. No portion of the Old Testament was an oral tradition at the time of Jesus. As a matter of fact, the New Testament tells us that Jesus read from the book of Isaiah. There are manuscripts which are copies of various Old Testament books which still exist today which were written before Jesus.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
The flying spaghetti monster is NOT going to like this.
Dead Sea Scrolls. Ever heard of them? They include a fair chunk of the Tanakh ("Old Testament" to Christians) written down as much as 400 BCE (before the birth of Jesus). The Ketef Hinnom silver scroll from Jerusalem dates from 600 BCE, and is clearly part of a long established written tradition. The Israelites/Jews were writing down their religious history for a thousand years before the Christians (we have religious inscriptions in Hebrew that are that old).
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
The articles are clear about the fact the parchment is from during life of Mohammad. The writing of the document would have happened *much* later. Makes sense considering scarcity of parchment in the region at the time. This feels like another anti-Islam piece.
Palimpsest.
Even if the carbon dating is right, all we know is the sheep (or goat) on which it was written died before Mohammed was born.
Bad science journalists! No biscuit!
You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
Most scholars don't think that the Talpiot Tomb has anything to do with Jesus. For exampel, Géza Vermes says the arguments for the Talpiot tomb are not "just unconvincing but insignificant" (see the Wikipedia page). Also, Christian theology does not depend on whether or not the shroud of Turin is real.
I'm not muslim, but even the summary notes a perfectly reasonable explanation - the parchment could be an old one. And frankly, I'm skeptical that the carbon dating is that precise; carbon dating depends on a lot of assumptions that can easily be false in specific circumstances. (Yes, radioactivity decreases at a fixed rate... but you have to make BIG assumptions about its starting value.) So while this article makes for a good headline, the current actual evidence is rather worthless.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
However the written form of Koran known to humans was the revelations as recorded by Abu Bucr. If there were versions of written documents that pre existed Koran it would cause a stir and most Muslims will just ignore the finding and whatever else needed to be ignored.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I mean, hold on a second. Slashdot links to an article that copies from another article a report of carbon dating of "545-568" for a piece of parchment from a codex of the Qu'ran. People in this thread immediately act all smarmy about religious folks and their crazy beliefs. Some even claim historians will "just give you the facts" or some horsecrap. Here's what a historian does: A. Looks at article. B. Follows link to article they stole that from. C. Follows their link to the article they stole it from. D. Hits a paywall and goes to Wikipedia. E. Finally gets the point: two bifolios of a really old Qu'ran were discovered (by Alba Fedeli) in a Birmingham codex, Radiocarbon analysis (by the University of Oxford's Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit) dated the animal from which the parchment came to between 568-645 with 95.4% confidence -- in other words, there's a 19 chances of out 20 that the animal was alive when Mohammad was. The verses were copied onto it sometime after the animal was killed. This should all be backed up by consulting the sources linked in Wikipedia, but I'm doing this for an internet rant, thank you very much. So, guess what? If you actually study the sources, you find that 1) no "scholar" has produced a coherent argument using this evidence as the key proof that the Koran predated Mohammad, 2) Antetexts are an entirely different matter, 3) plenty of people are willing to blindly follow their faith on this matter. Most of those seem to be those who proclaim the loudest about the superiority of "science" without having any knowledge of what "science" is and a fundamental confusion of what constitutes faith and what constitutes reason. Hint: if you believe it, 'cos you read it on the interwebs and it matches what you think of the world, it ain't reason.
Caused? This was the religion of their time. I highly doubt whoever was in power would of behaved well if they were following another religion. Also your comment shows a poor understanding of other cultures and religious beliefs and how they were used to manipulate people.
love is just extroverted narcissism
First, no, they believe that the parchment may have been made between those times.
Second, this is carbon dating, and we are talking about drama involving a couple decades.
From most to least likely, as best I can tell:
1- The carbon dating is off by a couple years. This is extremely likely, especially given that Islamic events *mostly* take place in the light of history (with the typical religious spin regarding their accuracy, of course). They did not date the ink itself, something that the scientists point out but gets lightly treated in media.
2- The parchment, a very valuable and frequently reused substance, was around a few years before being written on. This assumes that the carbon dating is totally accurate. Remember this isn't the difference between something being ten million years old and some guy claiming the earth is 4k years old- this is not a very long time at all. Nor is it like from 200 AD or anything, either.
3- Some parts of the Koran predate Mohammad Since this is just a very small part of the Koran, this is the most interesting claim, but neither is it as the headline is spinning it. While Muslim fundamentalists will fight this conclusion, they have a pretty reasonable leg to stand on- so far, at least. Even if they are wrong and parts of the Koran were repurposed to back some new militant religion, is that really that surprising to the rest of us?
Certainly interesting, but nowhere near as impactful as the headlines sound on this.
Also note, their p is that 5% thing- they are 94.5% sure, meaning they are wrong 1/20th of the time. That means that out of all the 95% confidence claims, 1/20 are wrong- and those would always be the most sensational.
Hey, speaking of sensational, why is the link to daily mail? This is all over the net, is that the best source?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07...
Also, I'm still not sure what dates are being claimed- each article seems to have slightly different ranges?
That IS Arabic, a very old form of it that didn't use the dots we use nowadays to denote say a Ba from a Ta or a Nun
The article and summary are bogus.
The parchment carbon dating gives a range on when the animal (sheep, goat, camel) died, not when the actual writing was done. But it does establishe an "parchment made no later than X" and a "writing can't be earlier than Y" scenario.
Muhammed died in 632 AD, and the parchment is dated up to 645 AD (latest). So it is most likely a copy written by a companion of Muhammed, possibly in his lifetime, or shortly after.
What this dating refutes beyond a doubt are the now discredited theories about Muhammed being a mythical figure, and the Quran invented in the late 7th century. For example, the Hagarene theory by Crone and Cook and the Nevo-Koren Crossroads to Islam theory are untenable now. This manuscript is earlier than all these theories claim.
It is written in the Hijazi script with no dots or diacritics. This script originated in Hijaz (Arabian Peninsula west coast), and was dominant in the few decades following the death of Muhammed, before the Kufic script dominated (from Iraq). The amazing thing is that I can read most of it, almost 14 centuries later!
By the way, I contacted Dr. David Thomas, one of the researchers, to ask if the ink was carbon dated, or just the parchment. He said just the parchment, so as not to affect the writing. I also asked if this was a palimpsest (older parchment that was washed and written over at a later date), and he said that it is not, since there are markings that show in that case.
So, this is as early a written copy as can be.
The interesting part is that the 645 AD date pre-dates the standardization of the Quran that was done around 650 AD by the 3rd successor to Muhammed, Caliph Uthman. Research shows minor variations, but nothing significant.
Here is his full reply:
In later emails he says that Fedeli's thesis is due to be published soon.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Perfectly legal if you meet 4 of 12 fuzzy criteria from the IRS. See the John Oliver show for recipe.
It's worse than that. The Koran contains stories that are based on common at the time mis-translations of the Jewish books.
Just like the book of Mormon, it contains proof of being the work of men, by virtue of the mis-translations included.
I'm sure the same would be true of the Jewish and Christian books, but their predecessor books aren't readily available.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Might want to read up on the council of Nicia. Where the new testament was edited by a politically appointed committee.
Old version of the books aren't common, but they are common enough to see that edits were made for consistency in the four official gospels.
They still haven't released the dead sea scrolls. Because the differences between them and modern versions would cause all kinds of strife.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'