Slashdot Mirror
Legal Loophole Offers Volkswagen Criminal Immunity
An anonymous reader writes: According to the Wall Street Journal (paywalled) a loophole in the 1970 Clean Air Act could make it impossible for U.S. prosecutors to subject Volkswagen to criminal charges over its use of standards-dodging 'defeat devices' in its emissions-testing software. Prosecutors are now reported to be considering alternative methods, including (considerably lesser) charges that Volkswagen lied to regulation authorities.
If they're already trying to worm their way out of this on technicalities then in my opinion that just makes the guilty look all that much more guilty.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
So long as the evil sociopaths who run the company are able to evade any meaningful censure, all is well! Doubtless some simpering worthless patsies will be found to take the blame while the real instigators are not only allowed to go free, but doubtless profit immeasurably.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
None of which explain what exactly is the loophole.
"There's a loophole there" - is all I could get. the WSJ article is paywalled.
Any ideas? IANAL so, to me, it's a mystery.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
If the rulebook says "When we plug in our testing machine, your car needs to be emitting X, Y and Z", then they were totally within the rules.
"the clause in the act indemnifies car manufacturers against criminal penalties". A non-paywalled linked with a bit more info: http://www.wsj.com/articles/vo...
It would have been more helpful if the summary had at least... you know... summarized what loophole actually was.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I still don't understand the furor about Volkswagen outsmarting the EPA. As I understand it, Volkswagen figured out a way to pass the EPAs bullshit tests (keep in mind, their cars are 100% legal in the much stricter European market) in such a way that they actually get better fuel economy (which is what we're going for, right?) than they would if they followed the EPAs regulations.
So now the EPA wants to make them burn EVEN MORE gas and waste EVEN MORE fuel.
And we all know the real reason the US government is going after Volkswagen: to give struggling US car companies a leg up. This is just the US trying to punish foreign companies for being more successful than US companies.
Beyond the emissions stuff what about their claims to the public?
Mileage. Emissions. All those consumers have valid legal claims that they were lied to. Regardless of cheating the emissions test, the consumers were told something that it turns out VW knew was a complete lie.
part of the deal to get the CAA passed was to eliminate criminal consequences for the car manufacturers. it was ALREADY known.
I knew that bull would never happen...
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
I'll bet l that California and the dozen or so other CARB states could still prosecute. At minimum they could change the smog test methodogy to defeat the defeat so that the cars cannot get a smog cert and could not be registered. This would open the door to civil suits for sure.
And is a VW emitting significantly more than any other car? Is it polluting more? No one is saying, even the "scientists" who made the original claim. No article I have read states how bad this is. Just that one of the world's best is not quite as good as they originally claimed. So what. Would you give up your car for a replacement that cannot achieve the original claim either? There is no point.
...has just been revoked
A very simple old concept we have had laws on for a long time. Nothing special needed.
For the Nixon administration.
Who wrote the software and who told him to write the software?
Here, fraud presents itself quite naturally and they can't seem to find it.
Perhaps they are worried that the US government could be charged with fraud too since it seems they passed an act which they said would make it illegal for car manufacturers to make highly polluting cars but which, it appears, does nothing of the sort.
They could juste pass a retroactive law!
And not because it lets the car companies get away with something.
The prosecutor is considering prosecuting Volkswagen for "lying to the authorities". "They lied to the authorities" is a catchall crime that the government often brings when it finds itself unable to convict someone for an actual crime. This is a bad, bad, thing because you can't just refuse to speak to the government, and pretty much anyone is going to say something when questioned by the government that can be spun as a "lie", even if they just forgot, were misheard, or told an actual lie but one that has no bearing on the case.
The people cheering for this are really cheering for the idea that the government can put anyone in jail at a whim, because that's what the crime of "lying to the government" amounts to. It makes a mockery of the idea of a fair trial, and the fact that in this case the government decided to use this trick on a deserving target doesn't make it any less horrible.
The assumption is you bought it because of it's pep and mileage. VW "fixes" the problem, both take a huge hit. Do you still want the car? Will VW buy it back? How about resale value? The Kelly Blue Book value just took a huge hit as the pep and mileage went way down. Who pays for that?
I for one am glad I didn't buy a diesel car in the last 10 years, sounds like a nightmare for those who did.
Who's worming their way out?
Sounds like the prosecutors are trying to make a case that won't get thrown out.
You can't just make up law as you go along because it's morally wrong.
You could send them to jail if you wanted to. Fraud, false statements to government, criminal conspiracy, etc...
Just maybe not under the clean air act.
Here, fraud presents itself quite naturally and they can't seem to find it.
Perhaps they are worried that the US government could be charged with fraud too since it seems they passed an act which they said would make it illegal for car manufacturers to make highly polluting cars but which, it appears, does nothing of the sort.
Congress has immunity from lying. No, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
VW is a rich corporation so all that will happen is a fine and you are bad don't do it again and poof it all goes away.
What if the US just banned VW/Porshe/Audi/Bugatti/etc imports and sales altogether?
How about that?
Or maybe they just pay the enormous fine, fix every car on the road that is fucked up, and never do it again. Fucking cunts.
who didn't see this one coming?
In a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king--and the two-eyed man is a heretic.
a legal loophole?
found by corporate lawyers?
I'm shocked. SHOCKED.
I'm going to go home, re-evaluate my life, and stop selling death sticks.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
This smells like Washington trying to find a way to avoid actually holding accountable for this fraud. Just because the Clean Air Act provides immunity from criminal liability for selling non-compliant vehicles, it does not provide immunity from fraud and racketeering.
It's not like the Justice Department would have done anything anyway. At worst the company would've have been on the hook for some big fines. Guess who would've paid those fines? Shareholders. The executives responsible wouldn't see their golden parachute's reduced by even $1 so who really gives a shit in the end? Newsflash. Nobody in a corporate boardroom gives a flying fuck if they break laws and the results are fines that shareholders have to pay. Start putting these pricks and their enablers in jail or making them pay out of pocket and then you'll start changing behaviours. Until then nobody cares.
But section 203(a)3(B) of the Clear Air Act is the one that mentions defeat devices.
and the punishment for violating that,
SEC. 205. CIVIL PENALTIES. .....
any person who violates section
203(a)(3)(B) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than
$2,500
No criminal charges, only $2,500 per car.
Germany is starting a criminal investigation of the former CEO : http://www.wsj.com/articles/ge...
They might be protected in teh US, but german politician and other german firms are hating right now to be associated with cheaters. Germany is a big exporting country. And VW is making them look very very bad. I am just guessing and a bit making a CT here but I would say the german prosecutor WILL have carte blanche to investigate this thoroughly and show the world they will not stand for it. Thus protecting the rest of their export industry. I am betting within a few month indictments will start falling onto folks at VW and associated.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Not surprised,
This is how this went down.. someone high up did the math.
A = Revenue selling cars in North America
B = potential liability under clean energy act for cheating emmissions
C = Percentage chance they would be caught and called out
A was far greater than B * C so the only wildcard remaining was the chance that some executives could go to jail. They had their lawyers check it out and were informed that they were in the clear so it was a simple business decision.
People who think corporations are driven by ANYTHING OTHER THAN PROFIT are stupid.
It's just what they do.
Not pretty, or elegant or sensible, let alone honourable what VW did. I wish for a better environment. VW sort of cheated and I'm not happy about it.
In a legal sense however VW committed crimes when and if they acted against the law. We know that law and common sense do not always coincide.
The questions I have not seen yet are to establish whether case will actually stick. Was it unlawful of VW to rig the tests the way they did? Did laws make make provisions for such rigging? Or did the law provide testing conditions that were actually all met by VW?
Don't want to blindly defend VW. But the lawmakers must also be scrutinised. Crappy laws lead to crappy cases. And in this case I can't see why laws were not there for random testing in normal, day to day circumstances. I mean even a kid could have come up with this.
And then apparently there's might be a loophole.
Everywhere around the world we the people pay lawmakers. We can expect of them that they do their work. No, demand!
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
If you prosecute every owner then they will turn around and sue VW. They will also kill VW in the marketplace. People won't like it, but they DID bypass emissions testing.
You know, Mercedes doesn't really sell many of their diesel passenger cars in the US like they do in Europe. I suspect the obstacle is the stringent EPA regulations limiting their ability to deliver a vehicle in the US with compelling gas mileage AND performance.
Mercedes management needs to be scrutinized by shareholders right now. While Volkswagen has been selling dozens of thousands of diesel vehicles in the US, Mercedes management should have been demanding their engineers create similar products. When the engineers shrugged their shoulders saying, "It can't be done without cheating the tests," Mercedes management should have conducted independent tests on Volkswagen TDI cars and alerted the EPA of the fraud. Where's the competitive research?!?!? Mercedes really has dropped the ball here.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
This is what happens when those who made the law receive hard money from the industry.
It's called lobbying, some countries accept it as normal, other countries consider it as a form of corruption.
Either way, it's the majority of citizens who lose.
Why not introduce some retrospective legislation for deliberately breaking the rules.
VW needs to be hammered to the wall for this to prevent similar abuses in the future.
Their board of directors also needs to be nailed up for condoning illegal activity.
All things considered, what will be better for the world: bankruptcy of Volkswagen and considerable upheaval in the european or even world-wide economics? In a time where there are enough problems as it is?
Or finding a way in which damage TO ALL CONCERNED will be minimized?
Paai
... retroactive laws are illegal. Something that has already happened cannot be later criminalized and prosecuted, at least not in the US.
There's a simple method of getting around the Wall Street Journal's paywall. Just Google the article title or the first sentence in the article. The resulting link from Google takes you to the full article.
for which VW is facing civil and criminal charges.
I wish I had karma to use.
If you're a software developer, you certainly understand that if you can't reproduce a problem, it's hard to fix, no matter how many resources you throw at it.
The Pinto, *that* fits your model. The GM switch I'll buy too. They ordered hundreds of thousands of replacement ignition switches before issuing a safety recall. But the Toyota accelerator?
Read the timelines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls#Accelerator_pedal_recall. It reads like a nightmare of trying to determine the cause of user error, to suspecting floormats, to suspecting sticky pedals (used by people who don't think to put their car in neutral), to acceleration overrides on the brake pedals, shaving the edges of accelerators etc, etc...
What would you *do* if you had 2 reports of cars accelerating out of control? recall millions to.... ... look more carefully?
There were also political motives at the time of the recalls. American automaker bailouts needed to be repaid, and Toyota's reputation was very, very good at the time. Knocking them down a peg was a good thing for the "domestic" brands.
50 states each charging the individual corporate decision-makers for "inducement to commit fraud" on the grounds that individual car-owners were innocently duped into defrauding the state by faking "passing grades" with their cars should get some attention.
The difficulty will be one of jurisdiction: Unless those decision-makers were in the US or US residents at the time, or in most cases, in the particular state or a legal resident of that state at the time, the state may lack jurisdiction unless it can prove that at least one non-innocent person was within its jurisdiction and it can prove a conspiracy between that person and those who weren't in its jurisdiction. Even then, dragging "extra-jurisdictional" defendants into a conspiracy where there is at least one "in-the-jurisdiction" defendant will be harder than if they were all within the jurisdiction.
In other words, if this had been Ford or GM and the state of Michigan wanted to prosecute for "inducing customers to defraud the state of Michigan" in Michigan state courts, the executives who lived in Michigan at the time couldn't claim "lack of jurisdiction."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The real problem is not so much with VW, but with the lazy government regulators that used the car computer results instead of doing their own tests.
They should not even be connecting to the test socket! 8-(
that would be an example of the terrible overreach of the tyrannical EPA that every Republican hates to the breadth and depth of his or her soul, that's killing jobs in America.
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
problem solved