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Microsoft's Mission To Reignite the PC Sector (nytimes.com)

HughPickens.com writes: Sales of personal computers have been declining for so long — 14 consecutive quarters — that it's hard remember a time when PCs ruled the tech world. Now Nick Wingfield writes in the NY Times that Microsoft is leading the way on a mission to re-ignite the PC market by taking the once-unthinkable step of competing with its hardware partners. This week, Microsoft dived even further into the business with a laptop device, the Surface Book. The stated reason that Microsoft got into the PC hardware business three years ago, with the original Surface, was not to put PC companies out of business — but to better illustrate the capabilities of its software, providing devices that would inspire PC makers to be more innovative.

One of the most remarkable things about Microsoft's growing presence in the hardware business is that it has not led to open revolt among its partners. Initially, many of them were not happy about Microsoft's moves, complaining in private. "It's positioned as a laptop, very squarely against the MacBook Pro as an example. But that could also be extended to a Dell XPS 13, or an HP x360," says Patrick Moorhead. One reason there hasn't been more pushback from OEMs is that Microsoft's Surface business is still relatively small. Another is that the money Microsoft has poured into marketing Surface has raised the broader profile of Windows PCs. While Microsoft obviously risks alienating its partners, it's doing so with a much bigger fight in mind. "Right now Microsoft really believes that it has to have a combined hardware, software, and services play to go up against the likes of Apple," says Moorhead. "That's why it's doing this. That's why it's taking such an aggressive stance now, moving to laptops."

267 comments

  1. Burn Baby Burn by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    ignite or ignore. either way works.

    1. Re:Burn Baby Burn by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 1

      what i DO hope this toy achieves, is nervousness among OEMs. those shittards who still spew out 15.4 inch screens at 1366x768 need to be shaken a bit. full hd should be the minimum, 3x2 ratio preferable. and while we're dreaming, why not dream big - the year of gnu/linux desktop could be upon us!

  2. Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales like the KKK "lights" a cross.

    OK, that's a bit over the top; but *nothing* MS has done implies that they're attempting to drive PC sales. They're doing everything they can to kill the PC; to transform it into an iPad that just happens to be sitting on your desktop. They're pushing spyware on it, making it a fascist data collection device instead of the PERSONAL computer that WE OWNED. Get it, MS? If you want this "ignition" to be something other than a funeral pyre, you need to get back to your roots.

    1. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're pushing spyware on it, making it a fascist data collection device instead of the PERSONAL computer that WE OWNED. Get it, MS? If you want this "ignition" to be something other than a funeral pyre, you need to get back to your roots.

      That is a concern of the fringe minority, those who post on Slashdot perhaps, but it isn't a major concern of the average Joe.

      If Snowden's NSA revelations didn't cause mass riots, nothing MS does is going to do so.

      Besides, Google has been doing it for years, and look how popular Android is.

    2. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're pushing spyware on it, making it a fascist data collection device instead of the PERSONAL computer that WE OWNED.

      I've got some sad news for you.

      People love spyware. People love giving up ownership of their devices.

      If they didn't, they would not have made Apple, Twitter, Google, and Facebook into the juggernauts they are today, giving over the highest level control of their data and devices.

      You are seriously misinformed if you think people want "open computers they own". People HAD that, and they gave it up in exchange for locked down spyware-infested systems.

    3. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot isn't the only blog with an extremely paranoid comments section. The far-right-wing propaganda blogs are even worse. A lot of people are losing their minds just like the cranks that inherited Slashdot when all the smart people left.

    4. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And a convertible laptop isn't a concern of the average Joe either.

    5. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is a concern of the fringe minority, those who post on Slashdot perhaps, but it isn't a major concern of the average Joe.

      Assuming only people who are into computers care about being spied on seems rather silly. Seems more likely perceived lack of concern is driven by ignorance not indifference.

      Thankfully polling has been done on privacy issues with results freely available to all:
      http://www.pewinternet.org/201...

      If Snowden's NSA revelations didn't cause mass riots, nothing MS does is going to do so.

      I forget, how many billions of dollars was Snowden revelations estimated to cost US tech companies?

      Besides, Google has been doing it for years, and look how popular Android is.

      Android is an open source Linux based operating system free of Google spyware. Spyware comes separately with google play services or with installing just about any app from the cesspool that is the Android app store.

    6. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      Those companies did a lot of stuff right though, that couldn't be had anywhere else. This is like saying people don't want an open source Photoshop alternative because look at the GIMPs adoption rate. People *would* like that, but they aren't willing to wade through the GIMPs shortcomings in order to make a political statement.

      I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think there would be a market for an open tablet/smartphone with iPhone level hardware design and a polished OS to match. They just aren't going to put up with unpolished clunky UIs in order to not be tracked and monetized, which is sad, but I understand it.

    7. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot cracks me up. There is less hatred directed towards Chrome Books than Windows 10, and the Chrome Book literally has all your data sitting in an ad networks cloud.

    8. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The average Joe is a moron. I'm not.

      Microsoft can keep their spyware and advertising. Once the Steam machines hit later this year, it will be the beginning of the end for Windows.

    9. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you just have selective memory. I see lots of bad things posted about both Chrome OS and Android. The reason it might not be as bad as for Windows is because there are free, open alternatives for both Chrome OS and Android (Chromium OS and AOSP).

    10. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 2

      Hmm... Not sure if serious...

      I had a lower UID and forgot it. It was from back when I had my company and would sometimes talk about it so I didn't use this nick. I mention that because what I have to say comes from years of watching this site.

      So, let me begin.

      1. Slashdot has always had its share of tin foil hat wearers. Otherwise those memes wouldn't exist - I'd say they're a pretty large percentage so not really subjected to scorn so much as they might be elsewhere.

      2. Yes, mandatory labeling implies fear and there's no scientific reason to fear them.

      3. Vaccinate or sterilize. If you're not going to vaccinate your children then get yourself sterilized.

      4. Slashdot is, like any other community, subject to the echo chamber effect but I think you'll find that it's more diverse here than in other communities. See Reddit, Fark, Voat, etc. as examples where the hivemind rules the roost.

      Perhaps you mean:
        - Elder FUD

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      What I always find interesting is how people can read what they want to read, rather than what was written.

      People claim in polls to care about privacy, but actions are worth more than words, and people's actions indicate they don't really care.

      The NSA is still here, still spying, and life marches on.

    12. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 2

      Thankfully polling has been done on privacy issues with results freely available to all: http://www.pewinternet.org/201...

      Here's the problem with the poll - they ask people about privacy, security and surveillance - but they don't test to see if people understand those topics, or how much they REALLY care about it.

      For example, people claim they care about things being made in America - http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/01/gallup-60-percent-of-u-s-willing-to-pay-more-for-american-made-products/ - However, one look at how much we import from overseas, and it is obvious how much they (don't) care.

      Here's a (bad) car analogy - if I asked, "Do you want cars to be safer?" Most people would probably answer, "Yes." However, if I followed that with, "Do you want cars to be limited to 35 MPH?" Most people would think I'm crazy.

      Here's the reality - even people who are aware of their data, how it might be shared, and are actively trying to protect it, are leaking data like a sieve. Most aren't willing to go to the lengths necessary to protect their information properly. Using gmail or any web mail provider? You are leaking information. Buying something online? Name, address, credit card info. Carrying a cell phone? GPS location and contacts. Using iCloud, Dropbox or any online storage service? I hope you have everything encrypted - and I mean your encryption, not their baked in service. I also hope you have never accidentally clicked a link or ad you didn't intend to (or even intended to) - because that info is going all over the place. See the complexity of ad networks here: http://www.lumapartners.com/resource-center/lumascapes-2/

      You might claim you care about privacy, security and surveillance; but how much effort are you really putting into protecting it?

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    13. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How often do I read a completely asinine post and look who wrote it and it's flyhelicopters?

      You are a special type of dickhead.

      That is a concern of the fringe minority, those who post on Slashdot perhaps, but it isn't a major concern of the average Joe.

      Where are you gathering your fringe minority statistics from exactly? Do cite. Again, do cite. Not just saying this for the beauty of fonts. Do cite. Lying bitch. I see all over the internet on the daily people saying Fuck Microsoft Spyware.

      If Snowden's NSA revelations didn't cause mass riots, nothing MS does is going to do so.

      Because people didn't snap and riot doesn't mean they didn't get the message. Where do you get this "nothing MS does is going to do so"? If the public doesn't literally riot then Microsoft's global backstabbing piece of shit virus-ridden-since-inception OS is somehow ok?

      Besides, Google has been doing it for years, and look how popular Android is.

      Cite where Android or Chrome keystroke log you or hot mic you or give Google permissions to access all of your local files via convoluted click-to-accept Privacy Agreement. If you encrypt your Android, Google doesn't get the keys. Microsoft Bitlocker-on-a-year-1993-NTFS-filesystem gives Microsoft the keys.

      There is no precedent of any company in the history of Earth pushing a bundled OS on OEM retail PC's that is complete malware. This is a total global backstab. Now I'm not saying if you wanted to install some spyware you couldn't... but if you don't want to install some spyware and Microsoft lies to your fucking face that it's just a few telemetries here and there and some innocuous metadata... unless you read a long ass "privacy agreement"... the OS should be blacklisted and sold as spyware or a botnet OS.

      Avoid all that and just consider Windows a sneaky ass lying piece of shit unstable OS that you have to buy a third party anti-virus suite to even pretend you are secure. Here's the joke. No matter how many anti-virus suites you install trying to "protect your data", your shit is hosed the day you boot up Windows 10 or install any of the backported MarkMonitor spy shit updates in 7/8/8.1.

      I will expect more dickhead comments from you, and the shills will mod you up like the whores they are.

      For everybody but flyhelicopters un-fuck your PC like this.

      http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/microsoft-has-no-plans-to-tell-us-whats-in-windows-patches/
      http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/leaks-show-that-microsoft-writes-release-notes-so-why-cant-it-publish-them/

      https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html
      http://www.computerworlduk.com/blogs/open-enterprise/how-can-any-company-ever-trust-microsoft-again-3569376/
      http://www.networkworld.com/article/2956574/microsoft-subnet/windows-10-privacy-spyware-settings-user-agreement.html

      http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/08/22/nsa-windows-8-exploit/
      http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/07/11/microsoft-gave-the-nsa-direct-backdoor-access-to-outlook-skype/
      http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/how-stop-windows-10-upgrade-downloading-your-system
      http://www.extremetech.com/computing/195592-with-windows-10-microsoft-could-move-to-a-subscription-based-model
      http://www.extremetech.com/computing/205320-microsoft-windows-10-will-be-the-last-version-of-windows
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GU5uv28a3I
      http://techrights.org/2015/07/31/vista-10-anticompetitive/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwRYyWn7BEo
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gghj03J_ri0
      http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
      http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/28/microsoft-intensifies-data-collection-on-windows-7-and-8-systems/

      THESE
      https://gitlab.com/windowslies/blockwindows
      ^(have to uncomment the #'s on two url's in the hosts file per latest change) Just put the hosts file where it goes and follow inst

    14. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The completely absurd idea that "That is a concern of the fringe minority, those who post on Slashdot perhaps, but it isn't a major concern of the average Joe" is just so patently absurd. Hint FUCKING Hint, the cheetos crowd do not buy PCs, they buy smart phones and game consoles (they do buy notebook for the equally techno limited children for school use) but they are not PC buyers now now will they ever be PC buyers (some of them were for a short while but that was because it was all the market had to offer).

      The PC market is shrinking back to business and computer geeks and nerds, the consumer PC market, Big Screen PCs, tablets, smart phones and game consoles are the larger but significantly different market. M$ is hugely fucking up by trying to force computer nerds and geeks into the cheetoos crowd market, empty consumers of palp rather than who they are. It is mind bogglingly stupid by M$ to fail to produce Windows secure edition for computer geeks and nerds because they will retaliate and ruthlessly attack M$ for their abuse of the privacy of computer geeks and nerds and, they will spread that attack as far and wide as they can (that being of course a consumer style boycott attack and counter marketing).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    15. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      You can't trust people with low UIDs!

    16. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      +1 Insightful. The way to ignite PC sales is to treat them like a PC, not to pretend they're a cellphone. To date 100% of my friends-and-family circle that I support IT-wise have decided to stick with Windows 7 because it's Windows, not some bizarro hermaphrodite Windows/iPhone crossbreed.

    17. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Time will tell... I don't agree with your viewpoint, but only time will show who was correct...

      I'm in the "computer geeks and nerds" group and I have no problem with what Microsoft is doing, so there you go...

    18. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      LOL It's nice to see some of the "old timers" stick their heads in once in a while. You can tell the ACs that are fairly new but want to appear old. They talk about when /. was old and how it was good back then. No... Slashdot was never good. ;) I mean, they let me join! Can't possibly have been good. I think my older ID was Unknown***** or the likes. I really can't remember. I also no longer have that email. It was tied to a domain name that I no longer control. I guess I'm SOL.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    19. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      What I always find interesting is how people can read what they want to read, rather than what was written.

      People claim in polls to care about privacy, but actions are worth more than words, and people's actions indicate they don't really care.

      There is a difference between not caring and not knowing. For example the fact millions of people have unintentionally been suckered into installing malware/spyware or conscripted into a botnet army does not mean millions of people don't care about having their systems compromised.

      Just because a repairman takes advantage of the ignorance of a customer does not mean people don't really care about getting ripped off.

      Just because an electric utility massively hikes service rates does not mean people who pay the new rate don't care about getting ripped off.

      There is no equivalence in your conclusions. No way to draw a direct line between what occurs and what people think. The real world is more complex than such a simple view allows.

    20. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Besides, Google has been doing it for years, and look how popular Android is.

      Actually, Google works hard to make sure that users *do* own their own devices, or at least can. All Nexus devices are unlockable, and Google encourages OEMs to allow unlocking as well. Plus the whole open source thing.

      Also, the common /. meme that Android reports on everything you do is simply false. Android the OS doesn't talk to Google at all. Google apps do, to the degree that you want to use them.

      (Disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer, I work on Android, but I'm speaking only for myself, not for Google. Google has PR people for that; they pay me to write code.)

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    21. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The thing is that both GMO and vaccines are just tools and science doesn't say much besides that as tools they work.
      GMO can just as easily be used to design a deadly organism as a beneficial one and vaccines can be taken to the extreme where a vaccine for the common cold has a 10% chance of preventing a cold and 10% chance of killing the recipient.
      The problem is in trusting those who are using the tools and those who are double checking the use and the fact that people, especially in committee (corporations, government), can be dishonest or just willfully blind when there are large rewards or even ideology on the line.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    22. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      While that is all true, it ignores the real world...

      The Samsung Galaxy line for example, comes with all kinds of stuff installed... like the Google Play store, GMail, Maps, etc...

      Do you honestly think very many people do anything with a Galaxy other than run what comes on it from Google?

      Open source sounds nice, but what percentage of Android phone users run a truly clean copy of Android?

    23. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in the "computer geeks and nerds" group

      No you aren't. Not even close.

    24. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Here's the problem with the poll - they ask people about privacy, security and surveillance - but they don't test to see if people understand those topics, or how much they REALLY care about it.

      Here's the reality - even people who are aware of their data, how it might be shared, and are actively trying to protect it, are leaking data like a sieve. Most aren't willing to go to the lengths necessary to protect their information properly. Using gmail or any web mail provider? You are leaking information. Carrying a cell phone? GPS location and contacts.

      Lets say I was born in North Korea in a forced labor camp under three generations of punishment rule. While I may not be willing to make little flags or mine coal in a way that violates every possible OSHA rule on the books you can bet I'll be doing it anyway.

      Obviously circumstances and environment in which people find themselves can depending on forces within or beyond their control which differ by any value between 0 and infinity. Generating specific examples of this concept don't communicate much in the way of falsifiable information.

      What really matters to me is what people want technology to do or not do vs what they are now today actually stuck/forced knowingly or not to live with. The greater the distance the greater the opportunity for change. It will always be true as long as there isn't a viable alternative to product x that does y people will tend to use x even if doing so makes them sad. In my view we have all spectacularly failed users. Those willing to hide behind today's reality to justify more of the same are only fooling themselves.

      You might claim you care about privacy, security and surveillance; but how much effort are you really putting into protecting it?

      Not Sayin Anything... :)

    25. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You're usually more rational than that. Hmm... I'm not sure how to reply?

      Yes, yes those could both be used for evil. No, they haven't been. Yes, those could be things prone to errors done in ignorance. However, I don't think anyone is suggesting that they be done without oversight or without regulation.

      As for GMO... I'd say that if a company wants they can put "GMO Free" on their packages (so long as they're honest about it). Putting "Contains GMO" implies that there's something wrong with it so I'd see the GMO Free much like I see "organic." I can't conclude what others would think but that's my opinion.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    26. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Mostly I mean that we have to keep vigilant. Vaccines seem to have been much more beneficial then harmful but things like the flu vaccine are more questionable for a healthy person. There's always the danger that in search of profits we may get vaccines where the harm vs benefit ratio is not beneficial.
      GMO are worst as what is beneficial depends more on viewpoint. Is it more beneficial to have a beautiful tomato that sits on the shelf for a week looking good but has no nutrition? Is it beneficial to have a roundup resistant crop that allows massive use of roundup for a few years until the weeds become roundup resistant and everyone has to buy a more expensive herbicide?
      It's not clear cut and I agree with you about oversight and regulation and allowing companies to put GMO free on their products with the only government oversight is making sure they're honest.
      I do worry that we'll get complacent and automatically trust things, especially things put out be companies whose primary motive is making money.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    27. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by shione · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't buy a microsoft pc because they have a locked bootloader preventing you from installing other OS. Fair enough that ms doesn't want you installing other OS but when they cancelled windows rt and gave their own customers no way out to keep using their hardware, that was a dick move.

    28. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      If you had previously used WinCE or WinMobile, or indeed, any previous portable device with MS software anywhere near it, you should have seen this coming.

      Shafting their customers is what Microsoft do!

      WinPhone users can expect the same shafting any day now.

      Meanwhile, MS have gone into the machines belonging to Windows users and fucked with the systems. This is a criminal act in most jurisdictions, which has been cited as the reason why MS had not previously made any serious effort to stop viruses, and why third parties cannot release "good" viruses that clean up PCs infested with bad ones.

      MS is like a rogue TLA agent that is on a killing spree. Sure, the average Joe has not yet understood what is going on. The average Joe is they guy next door to me who normallysays "They are a huge company - they would not be allowed to do this/never get away with it". However, he understands what VW has done (cos he owns a VW) - and now realises that big companies can do anything in Europe and USA, and they no longer need to bribe enough people to do it (like in the old country).

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    29. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly; what GP said was a little misdirection.

      What he said may have been *technically* correct however, in reality, there are a BILLION Android devices in the world that are reporting a lot of data back to Google HQ.

    30. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I personally know many people who do not like this privacy invading technology and also avoid using them. And these are not only technical people, but just the average person. And I do know people who don't care, and these are not only the technically challenged people, but also people who know how stuff works.

      But maybe that's because we in Europe had a history of central private data collection that went wrong when our dear German neighbors invaded our country back in 1940. Especially the older generation (45+) have been taught about how easy it was for the German to single out potential anti-Nazi's and put them in concentration camps without trial. This was minority report, but Nazi style and to prevent anti-government movements. The data wasn't collected by the Nazi's but by the governments long before the ware to give a better service to the population (like what religion, what political orientation, what language, ...)

      In Europe many people are afraid of entities that collect private data, and that's why you see even in the EU parliament anti-data collection sentiments. Of course if it were up for the politicians and central organizations, they would gladly ignore any concerns of the average person and just go one with the data mining. It is only the democratic voices that you hear and that sometimes manage to let the highest authority question some data mining company. But rarely something is really done about it. It gets some media coverage and people think something is done about it and get quiet again.

    31. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      Besides, Google has been doing it for years, and look how popular Android is.

      You have a point. But I've already opted in to Google services - so I'm getting something in return for access to my info (and I'm pretty much okay with the way they use it - though I'm occasionally creeped out when I go to google something I've been emailed about, and the auto-completion is way ahead of me - but apparently, that's a feature, and I suppose it is useful...).

      But I haven't opted in to Microsoft's services. I don't use Bing or Outlook or Office 365, and I don't want to use them. So I'm not okay with them having my info, and I haven't done any research into how they use it. I use Windows because I have to use it sometimes for work (and I only use it rarely, since I only rarely have to - I use Mint most of the time). I paid for my copy of Windows 7, and haven't taken the 'free' upgrade to Windows 10 - but apparently Windows 7 is now collecting info too. If they want my info, offer a service I want - not just a clone of Google services. And make it optional - if I use the service, I ante up my info; if I don't use it, no dice.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    32. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      But those Android users bought their devices largely for those Google services. They could've bought Windows phones and gotten Microsoft services, but they chose not to. The problem is that they didn't choose Windows on their PC's - there is still not a reasonable way to buy a PC without Windows, unless you consider Chromebooks to be equivalent. They didn't choose Bing search - it's being foisted on them. I don't know how completely stuff like Bing and Cortana can be replaced with something else, but I suspect it's not easy or obvious to do. You may think this is all fair game, but Google came by their search dominance honestly - and their championing of the web (the standard web, not the bastardized 'standard' version MS tried to use to hold on to it's control) is the primary reason we're even talking about Microsoft alternatives today. Microsoft has quietly waited out the antitrust remedies of the past and is now trying once again to use what's left of their desktop monopoly to

            1) succeed in a business that they were late to recognize and unable to succeed in on the merits
            2) siphon off Google's revenue stream to weaken the main driver of the industry away from Microsoft and their desktop dominance.

      All things being more or less equal privacy wise, that's more than enough reason for me to opt for Google over Microsoft - and should be for most people.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    33. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      Interesting that this seems to be what was behind the shift in Windows 10 to allow BIOS's that don't support disabling secure boot. It's Microsoft that wanted to build those machines, not the other OEM's. I suppose it could still be possible to install a Linux distro with a secure boot shim onto one of these machines, though I haven't seen that verified anywhere.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    34. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by swillden · · Score: 1

      While that is all true, it ignores the real world...

      The Samsung Galaxy line for example, comes with all kinds of stuff installed... like the Google Play store, GMail, Maps, etc...

      None of which send anything to Google unless you use them, and none of which send anything privacy-impacting to Google unless you choose to give them permission to. You can set up a throwaway gmail account, install apps and navigate, etc., as much as you like and Google will never learn anything about you from your phone. Your phone will be less useful than if you provided it with all the information to make Google Now work, etc., but that's up to you. If you want, you can even disable all of the Google apps and install some other app store and some other set of apps.

      Open source sounds nice, but what percentage of Android phone users run a truly clean copy of Android?

      Are we talking about what Google does or what users do? Can you install Microsoft-free Windows at all?

      You're conflating two issues: ability and interest. Android provides people the ability to modify their software in whatever way they like (at least on unlockable devices like the ones Google sells). The vast majority have no interest in doing that; they just want something that works, and Android plus the Google suite does an excellent job of that. Similarly, the vast majority of Windows users have no interest in modifying, or even understanding, their system... the difference is that Microsoft doesn't even provide the option.

      Your claim was that Microsoft is starting to do what Google has been doing, but that's simply false. Windows has never been as open as Android, and that is not changing. Further, it appears that Microsoft has added user data-gathering which cannot be turned off (see previous articles about how there are controls but they appear not to work), which Google has never done.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    35. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't buy a microsoft pc because they have a locked bootloader preventing you from installing other OS. Fair enough that ms doesn't want you installing other OS but when they cancelled windows rt and gave their own customers no way out to keep using their hardware, that was a dick move.

      While that is a fair point, and if it is a concern to you, then yes, you should not buy it.

      However, I would ask... can you install another OS on an iPad?

      I do get that you probably wouldn't buy one of those either.

    36. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Spyware comes separately with google play services or with installing just about any app from the cesspool that is the Android app store.

      In other words, the spyware enters the android system within the first ten minutes of use by the average user.

      WTF was your point, eh?

    37. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      But I haven't opted in to Microsoft's services. I don't use Bing or Outlook or Office 365, and I don't want to use them.

      Fair enough...

      I went the Office 365 route because of the benefits, but it isn't for everyone.

      Having 5 accounts, one for each of us, plus unlimited OneDrive storage, plus synced Windows desktops that log in anywhere, is nice.

      I use Windows because I have to use it sometimes for work (and I only use it rarely, since I only rarely have to - I use Mint most of the time).

      Fair enough, and this is not an attack, but you are way, way, way outside of "normal" when it comes to PC usage if you're running Linux. That is something I think that gets missed among techies who run Linux, is that they do not represent the bulk of the consumer PC market.

      I paid for my copy of Windows 7, and haven't taken the 'free' upgrade to Windows 10 - but apparently Windows 7 is now collecting info too.

      One of the biggest benefits to Windows 10 over 7 is the unified, synced, log in. At least from my point of view. I can sit down at any of our computers and they are the "same". They all sync to my Microsoft account. I can log into a new computer and poof, my desktop looks and acts like I'm used to.

      This is a benefit to me. It may not be to you, and that's ok, but I like it. We have multiple computers in the house, they each have a login and remember what is what for each person. My daughter's start menu is setup for her, my son's for him, and so on.

    38. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      As for your worries that we become complacent, that's applicable everywhere and with almost everything. These are no different and suffer the same potentials - namely harming people due to ignorance or greed or whatnot. This is true in most everything. Even too much oxygen is deadly. Most anything can be used to kill and we must always remain vigilant.

      I see no evidence to suggest that the two in question are remarkably dissimilar than others and I see no reason to hold back progress just because people are afraid. There's lots of things we've done, as a species, that would have never been done at all if the people who were afraid were in control. There were people who decried the telephone, the automobile, the computer, the internet, singing, dancing, music, etc... Yet we can say that they've all been of benefit to more people than they've harmed.

      It's not that I want to change your mind (who the hell am I to do that?) but that I don't understand you and usually I do. It's like finding out that someone you know is actually a believer in Scientology and yet you've known them for years. Something like that, at any rate.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    39. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      It is mind bogglingly stupid by M$ to fail to produce Windows secure edition for computer geeks and nerds

      Nerds have always secured their PC for themselves. It has never been Microsoft's job to do so for them.

      I mean, get a clue.

    40. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Great, so putting "Kelloggs" , "5% protein", " best before 15 DEC 2015", "made in USA" - they all imply there is something wrong with it?

      And mandatory labeling need not be as useless as "contains GMO", it could specify the exact species, strain, GMO identifier or something useful like this.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    41. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      And exactly how does the fact that you like and use these services address my point that I don't want to - and don't want my info collected just because I was forced to buy Windows with my PC? If the services are good, then let people opt in to them. Signing in to Microsoft's online world - for email, Office or whatever, should suffice. But don't collect from me if I don't sign in. And don't count the Windows store as an opt-in - since that's the only way to load 'modern' apps on these things.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    42. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      And exactly how does the fact that you like and use these services address my point that I don't want to - and don't want my info collected just because I was forced to buy Windows with my PC?

      Well... you're not really forced to use Windows, are you?

      There are Macs, and then you can install Linux on almost anything...

      I'm honestly not trying to argue, I'm simply pointing out that you have options. MS has clearly decided to go down this path, for better or worse. If you don't like it, don't use Windows. My point is that I don't think the majority of consumers care all that much. Even those who claim they care, won't change their behavior when the rubber meets the road.

      Keep in mind that you can't opt-out of the data collected by your credit card company about your purchase habits, and that data is then sold. Retailers do the same thing, both with and without loyalty cards. Companies keep track of what the same CC number purchases over time, attach the name to it, and sell that data.

      If you truly want to be private, you'd be shocked at what you'd have to do to make that happen. Most people are kidding themselves when they think they are really private.

    43. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales like the KKK "lights" a cross.

      OK, that's a bit over the top; but *nothing* MS has done implies that they're attempting to drive PC sales. They're doing everything they can to kill the PC; to transform it into an iPad that just happens to be sitting on your desktop. They're pushing spyware on it, making it a fascist data collection device instead of the PERSONAL computer that WE OWNED. Get it, MS? If you want this "ignition" to be something other than a funeral pyre, you need to get back to your roots.

      Is there no shortage of knee jerk dolts like you on Slashdot ?

    44. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It implies it so long as you lunatics keep running around claiming it is evil and the dooming of humanity.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    45. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Then the lunatics imply, not the label.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    46. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Public perception is influenced by lunatics. Personally, I'd be in favor of them labeling them. However, look at society... Yeah... We don't have informed people. We have hysteria, FUD, and media-influenced people who are too lazy to do their own research. I can understand and support not forcing it onto the label at this time. I wish things were different, they are not.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    47. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Specifying strain and/or identifier protects from lunatics with effective* IQ lower than about 120. Which is roughly the universal set of lunatics.

      Protection happens by way of unpronounceable technical names of even non-GMO strains, and lunatics' unwillingness to inform themselves.

      * by effective IQ I mean IQ multiplied by a coefficient of interest & willingness to learn in the subject.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    48. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You might be on to something. It's like security through obscurity... I'll have to mull that one over. Currently, and this is short term thinking on my part - I've not really done any real thinking on this idea you present, I'd expect News At 7 to have a full half hour devoted to telling those afore mentioned lunatics what to look for so that they too can avoid the evils of genetically modified food!

      And then an ad for broccoli.

      Actually, I don't think I've ever seen an ad for broccoli. It'd probably help if I watched television. Well no. It wouldn't help. But that's what I imagine television to be like after having seen it in the past.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    49. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      You're missing my point. Credit card users use their credit card for the service it provides. Yes, there are Macs, but I don't want one. I want a PC. I'd probably prefer that I could buy it without an OS - since I do spend most of my time in Linux. But I bought the PC, and was forced to pay for Windows, and I didn't opt in to their attempt to steal Google's business by leveraging their OS monopoly - yes, it still qualifies. Google can't force you to 'opt in' on a windows PC, but Microsoft apparently can.

      There is no question about it that Microsoft would love to 'suck the air out of' Googles business model. And if they degrade Google's business enough, that removes a significant innovator from the tech landscape - and replaces it with... what? A once-again dominant Microsoft who happens to have a nice new business that they cloned from those who created the category. All through the magic of monopoly leveraging. So, it's less about my privacy (to the extent that that exists once you go online), than about preferring a tech landscape where there are viable options like Linux, ChromeOS, Android, and, yes, even iOS and OS/X (both of which, frankly, would not be enjoying their current success had Google not pushed the web to the point where a large segment of the population can meet their computing needs without Windows). You may be a Windows fan - but even you should not want to return to the former level of Microsoft dominance - under which 'innovation' only led where Microsoft wanted it to lead (from your pockets into theirs).

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    50. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      You may be a Windows fan - but even you should not want to return to the former level of Microsoft dominance - under which 'innovation' only led where Microsoft wanted it to lead (from your pockets into theirs).

      I can agree with that... monopolies are generally not a good thing.

      Frankly, the part about Windows that I'm such a fan of is that I can install it on any PC I want, including one that I build. You say that you were "forced to pay for Windows", but you really weren't. Not only can you build your own PC without Windows, but there are multiple companies online that will be happy to do it for you and ship you a built and tested machine with just a formatted hard drive.

      Linux is never going to be real competition to Windows due to its business model and how fragmented it is. It'll always be 1-2% of the desktop PC market because of that.

      OS X COULD have been a serious competitor, if Apple would sell it and allow you to install it on whatever you want. I'd have given it a serious look years ago if they had done that, but Macs are just so expensive that it isn't worth considering, which is why it has 5% of the market, give or take. That also won't change unless they change their prices/hardware policies.

      So you have a defacto Windows monopoly. There ARE other choices, but not ones that give you the kind of choice that we COULD have if we had competition that had 25% of the market. If OS X could get to 25% of the PC market, you'd see serious development for it and then you'd have real competition.

      At 5%? Not really...

    51. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OS X COULD have been a serious competitor, if Apple would sell it and allow you to install it on whatever you want. I'd have given it a serious look years ago if they had done that, but Macs are just so expensive that it isn't worth considering, which is why it has 5% of the market, give or take. That also won't change unless they change their prices/hardware policies. So you have a defacto Windows monopoly. There ARE other choices, but not ones that give you the kind of choice that we COULD have if we had competition that had 25% of the market. If OS X could get to 25% of the PC market, you'd see serious development for it and then you'd have real competition. At 5%? Not really..

      How many years will it take to dispel the "Macs are SO expensive" Meme?

      Feature for feature, spec for spec, it has been proven time and again that Macs are often equivalent, sometimes marginally more expensive, and sometimes even cheaper than other "reputable brand" "Wintel" PCs. "White box" DIY systems don't apply; because they have no "added value" costs. And in the case of OS X, we're not talking about a drive stuffed-full of Crapware; but rather (no flames, please!), at least moderately-useful-to-many-Users' Applications.

      Sure, Windows is slowly-but-surely "catching up" with SOME of that stuff; but nobody else still ships an OS that comes pretty much read-to-use out of the box.

      So, at least some of that stuff has value.

      I could go on, but it's just going to generate more hate-posts, and people crowing about how they can put together some shitbox, no-warranty desktop computer for 3 cents that blows the doors off of a Mac Pro, blah, blah.

      But one thing the DIYers can't really do is laptops. And that is one market where most reasonable people agree that Apple rules.

    52. Re:Microsoft is "igniting" PC sales... by shione · · Score: 1

      If apple did what microsoft did with the surface rt? yes.

  3. Why you need profits to motivate innovation by west · · Score: 1

    My suspicion is that there just wasn't enough profit in the non-Mac PC world to motivate PC makers into taking the risks that innovation requires.

    Kind of sad, really. The fact that PCs are affordable means they're doomed to be... kind of boring. (At least until Microsoft's money shakes it up.)

    1. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think PCs are boring, no more than your average Mac, which is the same thing.

      There is nothing overly special about a MacBook, other than it costs a lot and says "Apple" on it.

      If you want the ultra light, ultra thin formfactor, sure, go for it... but frankly you can get a really nice PC for a whole lot less money and it works just fine.

      I'm typing this reply on an ASUS 15.6" Core i3 notebook that was $349.

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...

      4GB of RAM, 500GB HD, AC Wi-Fi, DVD burner, 1080p display, Windows 10.

      The only upgrade I did to it was replace the 500GB SSD with a 256GB Transcend SSD that I picked up on sale from Amazon for $72.

      Turns the machine into a rocket for basic tasks. No, it isn't a gaming machine, but it runs everything else as fast as is needed, for less than $450.

      If that is "boring", I'll take it.

    2. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      My first ultra light, ultra thin laptop was a Sony from 2001.

      Everything that Apple has done with it's PCs was done by someone else first. That includes weird WTF form factors for workstation class machines.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      PCs *should* be kinda boring. They're like shoes. It's not what you have, it's what you do with it.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were profits to be made. It's just that the PC makers are too stupid and incompetent to earn those profits.

      Did anyone like the garbage that Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. were churning out in circa 2005 or so?

      The stuff those bozos were selling is typical of a company run by MBA drones. They're in a race to zero to make the cheapest, crappiest product and investing nothing in R&D. (Many years ago, I had a Dell management drone proudly proclaim that they spent almost nothing on R&D.) The drones have absolutely no imagination or capability for independent thought.

      Apple made it clear (even though it was already obvious) that there is a market for gear that's not utter crap.

    5. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Bullsh*t.

      Dell doesn't do any R&D because they put together someone else's parts. So does Apple oddly enough. They use the same collection of spare parts as Dell does. Some models of Mac are so much like their PC counterparts that you use the same installation and debugging instructions if your running the same OS on both.

      Apple has great marketing and has done a good job at convincing people that their version of part X is somehow magically better than Dell's.

      They also fixate on these marginal form factors to the exclusion of all else.

      They also have a captive market of MacOS users. If you despise the black trashcan, what are you really going to do? Flush tons of money spent on Mac software? Probably not.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      True, most of what Apple does was done by someone else... Apple has better PR and marketing however...

      The iPod was not first, but it ran off with the market...

    7. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      The problem with your argument is that you think anyone who owns a MBP wants a cheapass plastic laptop with a crappy display.

      If they did, they wouldn't have spent 6 times as much to get high quality polished device.

      Your argument revolves around comparing a Rolex to a gas station kids 'digital' watch and pretending the kids watch is better in every way. Its certainly cheaper, but by pretty much every other aspect, its shit.

      Turns the machine into a rocket for basic tasks. No, it isn't a gaming machine, but it runs everything else as fast as is needed, for less than $450.

      So ... you can find a cheaper machine but it doesn't perform as well ... do I need to show my shocked face? Do you think your Toyota is the same as a Lotus too?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    8. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      And Apple stuff basically works. Like the trackpad. Come on world, is Apple the only company that can make a really good trackpad? You'd think so. I'm typing on a 5 year old MacBook Pro 17" with a great trackpad and bulletproof construction. It's been over much of country, part of the planet and the only thing that's gone south is the video, which Apple fixed for free - out of the warranty period.

      Yes, in a lot of ways it's a bog standard Intel box, but some of the smooth edges (and not just the rounded corners) and good system integration just really hasn't been duplicated by anybody else. My 2014 Dell XPS 13 is a nice machine, but Windows is still clunkier than OS X and the fucking trackpad is a POS. The keyboard is only a bit better. Why can't Dell fix those two rather important little bits? Beats me, but they haven't.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      So why do Apple's trackpads work and Dell's don't?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    10. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the trackpad. Come on world, is Apple the only company that can make a really good trackpad?

      Apple drones like you are always fabricating shortcomings in other companies where there is none. I have owned and worked on many laptops that had trackpads and I can't think of a single time when I thought "this trackpad really sucks compared to other trackpads". They are just capacitive touch sensors. You can't really improve upon that for their purposes.

      Maybe I should say that all Apple touchscreens suck because they don't have integrated active digitisers.

    11. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best part of a PC is that I can build a computer for nearly half the price of an equivalent mac and with some effort turn it into a hackintosh. Only, it's not the equivalent spec. its better because I can put a proper cooling system on my CPU so the processor isn't constantly thermal throttling and it has a full power desktop GPU, not some weak mobile version.

    12. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      So ... you can find a cheaper machine but it doesn't perform as well ... do I need to show my shocked face?

      Yes, you do... since it DOES perform as well, and frankly better than a MacBook does in most respects. Not as well as a MBP, but close enough to count.

      Do you think your Toyota is the same as a Lotus too?

      I imagine you meant Lexus... and frankly, they are usually more or less the same with some badging and trim differences.

      To my mother's annoyance, her Lexus RX is really a tall Toyota Camry station wagon... or a shorter Highlander, take your pic.

    13. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your problem is assuming that non-Apple laptops aren't made well. I can tell you right now that my laptop, an Alienware 17, has better build quality and performance than any Macbook. In fact, whenever I use it out in public, I ALWAYS get people coming around to ask me about it and remark on how cool it is. Many of those people are Apple users.

      Also, a gas station digital watch is cheaper, more durable and probably has more functions than a Rolex. It is better in every single way, unless you're an idiot with too much money.

    14. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      The problem with your argument is that you think anyone who owns a MBP wants a cheapass plastic laptop with a crappy display.

      I think the $350 laptop will far outsell the MBP, it does what people need for a whole lot less money.

      If they did, they wouldn't have spent 6 times as much to get high quality polished device.

      There are machines that are $500 less than the cost of a MBP that are of the same quality. Apple is really expensive.

      Your argument revolves around comparing a Rolex to a gas station kids 'digital' watch and pretending the kids watch is better in every way. Its certainly cheaper, but by pretty much every other aspect, its shit.

      That is a terrible example. Very few people buy a Rolex to tell time. They buy it to show off and look "cool".

      Are you suggesting that is why most people buy a MBP? To show off and look "cool"?

    15. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by BitZtream · · Score: 1, Interesting

      No it doesn't. I assure you, your i3 with 4gb doesn't perform anywhere near the same as an i5 or 7 with 16gb. Are you stupid? Just because you use it for basically nothing and can't tell that its performing differently doesn't mean it isn't.

      I imagine you meant Lexus

      Okay, you are stupid. No I said Lotus, I meant Lotus. You're comparing bargain basement to high end. There are many other brands I could have picked from, but Lexus is Toyota which means you clearly are utterly failing to understand that you aren't buying the same thing. But even Lexus to Toyota is more appropriate t

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    16. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by BitZtream · · Score: 0

      Your problem is assuming that non-Apple laptops aren't made well.

      Wrong.

      My assumption is that a $350 laptop doesn't compare to any Apple laptop sold.

      My assumption is that a $350 laptop is not well made.

      I can tell you right now that my laptop, an Alienware 17, has better build quality and performance than any Macbook

      Yea? How's the price comparison at that point? You didn't pay $350 for that Alienware, did you? I'm not arguing that Apple is the best choice, I'm simply arguing that Apple doesn't sell any laptop that comes anywhere near being comparable to any $350 laptop you buy.

      You can argue that 'for you' the $350 is the same functionally, because you don't use anything more, but from a technical perspective it falls apart.

      You want a $350 laptop? Good for you. I use a $250 one in my boat, and don't care if it dies. Works GREAT for that purpose. My MBP stays home or at the office on a nice comfy desk or on my lap, is at least 16x faster according to benchmarks, turns into a small heater when under load, and has more ram than the one in my boat his storage space. I'm not trying to claim that the $250 is the same as the MBP though.

      Also, a gas station digital watch is cheaper, more durable and probably has more functions than a Rolex. It is better in every single way, unless you're an idiot with too much money.

      Yea, that was a shitty example.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    17. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by captjc · · Score: 1

      Says someone who has obviously never used Synaptics touchpad. Cheap, small, and terrible and seem to be on just about every low to mid-end laptop.

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
    18. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are machines that are $500 less than the cost of a MBP that are of the same quality. Apple is really expensive.

      Your argument revolves around comparing a Rolex to a gas station kids 'digital' watch and pretending the kids watch is better in every way. Its certainly cheaper, but by pretty much every other aspect, its shit.

      That is a terrible example. Very few people buy a Rolex to tell time. They buy it to show off and look "cool".

      Are you suggesting that is why most people buy a MBP? To show off and look "cool"?

      I know a little something about the quality of laptops, especially in the $1500-$2000 range. I buy PCs for work and I use Macbook Pros for home. Compared to the other business and engineering machines that we purchase The Macbook is the best laptop on the market bar none.

      At work, we are constantly looking at various vendors and specs for whenever there is a new PC refresh. Lenovo is a joke that is running on what little grace the Thinkpad name has left in corporate America. The build quality is terrible, and their drivers are horrendous. We have a running gag that you can always tell who has a Lenovo because they always carry their laptop with the screen open because there seems to be a bug that if you close the screen there is a 40% chance that when you open it it will freeze. Don't get me started on their USB 3 drivers.

      Dells notebooks have the worst body construction imaginable. We leased a batch of 15 of which only 3 didn't develop cracks in the plastic within the 12 months timeframe. They also use the synaptics trackpads which are just plain bad. HP is OK, just don't go for their aluminum cases which are flimsy as hell and dent easily. Also try to make sure they have a matte screen option as their screens are shiny as hell.

      Currently, procurement is dictating a company specializing in Lenovo but we do have Macs as a "specialist" option (mostly for the art and marketing teams and some of the managers). Of the 30-some we have deployed, we have only had hardware issues with 2 which is well below the average of what we have with other brands. Outside of some problems with the display drivers involving multiple monitors and problems with Exchange and shared folders, we don't really have much problems with the Macs. We also don't get the kind of complaints from the Mac users as the Windows users give either, so either the users are just not as vocal or the machines have a better quality.

    19. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Marginally related...

      I haven't *had* to buy new hardware in years. Literally, years... I don't game. I don't work on graphics. I don't edit movies or sound. I use Linux and never reboot or reboot only once in a while or when I'm tweaking. I still buy at least a couple of new computers, desktops, every year and I don't have to. I'm not even sure, at this point, that I really notice much of a difference between them any more.

      I was one of the early adopters to put my OS on an SSD. (Oddly, those drives are still probably functional but I do tend to replace stuff often so they've not had a hard life.) I was one of the earlier people to go to 8 or 16 GB of RAM. These days I think everything has 32 GB of RAM in it - I even have a laptop with that much RAM in it.

      I've got a whole house full of computers that don't get used - I regularly go through (like twice a year) and collect them and donate them to the local elementary school. The IT guy there loves it and is grateful. They only have 56 students so I pretty much take care of the whole thing for them - I even got them all iPads and a few spares a couple of years ago. Well, no, technically "Santa" did as it was at Christmas time. I might refresh them over the holiday season this year and the students can keep their existing devices and the new ones will be used. I've yet to talk it over with Matt.

      Anyhow, I think a lot of it might be there - to follow your idea... It was all done before and we have it all already. Everything is a copy of everything else. Everyone has the devices they need and, really, they simply run fast enough now. Only a few of us, comparatively, are still interested in keeping up with the edge of the wave and the rest just have devices that already work for them and they don't even have to replace or upgrade them often.

      I imagine that Windows 10 would, for instance, run "okay" on 4 GB of RAM on an old 2.8 GHz, dual core, AMD from say 2007 or so. I imagine it would... I know I sometimes pull out older hardware to play with and stuff still runs fine once it is loaded. If you've got RAM then it's usually just fine and RAM is cheap.

      So, nobody needs new copies of older stuff that's just polished and has the features hidden in new menu locations. That's what I'm thinking, at least.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    20. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No R&D? You mean doing in-house design of the PCBs, in-house design of the case, etc. isn't considered R&D? Why were the no R&D crap companies' notebooks so much thicker and heavier than Apples'? Why not just say to Foxconn, "I want the nice, thin notebook"?

      Notice I didn't mention the IBM ThinkPads. Clearly, IBM had spent time and money to design a notebook that people would want.

      When I said that Dell did no R&D, I meant the only thing they might have done is specify the color of the exterior. But they left everything else to whatever company (Foxconn?) was doing all of the manufacturing. As of today, I suspect Dell does have some sort of R&D since at least their XPS line is far nicer that the junk they used to sell. However, that's only after they saw someone charging a lot for a computer (which is, at heart the "same collection of spare parts as Dell") and making a profit that they started doing something different.

      Do you really think that the outsourced manufacturers are willing or capable of doing this kind of R&D? Then why would they continue to stay near the bottom of the value chain and cede that extra profit to others?

      And while I went off on a tangent on the issue of R&D, my point was made in response to the post I replied to. The crap companies were too stupid to realize that there was a market (a profitable one at that) for a better computer. The market doesn't have to be a race to zero where every product has to be absolute garbage. There are enough people with money who care enough about quality to pay more for a better product.

    21. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      I assure you, your i3 with 4gb doesn't perform anywhere near the same as an i5 or 7 with 16gb. Are you stupid?

      No, but clearly you are...

      On basic Windows tasks, yes it does perform about the same...

      A Core i3 with 4GB of RAM opens Chrome, Word, Acrobat, and a bunch of other basic programs at about the same speed as a i5 or i7 does.

      Of course it shows better numbers in a benchmark, but those don't translate to the end user experience in a way that matters.

      Okay, you are stupid. No I said Lotus, I meant Lotus.

      Then you're just silly... A Lexus would make for a much better comparison... Lotus? What the heck does that have to do with Toyota? It would have made more sense if you said Porsche or Ferrari... Lotus? Really?

    22. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      I was one of the early adopters to put my OS on an SSD.

      I remember that... Paid $550 for a 160GB Intel SSD about 5 years ago... Thought it was a decent deal at the time! :)

      I still have that drive, it is in something around the house. Still works perfectly.

      I imagine that Windows 10 would, for instance, run "okay" on 4 GB of RAM on an old 2.8 GHz, dual core, AMD from say 2007 or so

      Actually, it would run very well. I have Windows 10 on a 2007 Core2Quad Q6600 and it runs perfectly well for day to day Windows tasks. Everything from Chrome to Office to basic games work like clockwork. Everything I've tried from the Windows App Store works perfectly.

      Frankly, compared to my 4790K Haswell refresh machine, there is very little difference for light Windows usage.

    23. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Most of the touchpads I've used are Synaptics. I have never had a problem with any. Some of the old laptops had smaller touchpads, but I don't have fat fingers so it never mattered.

    24. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what he means with 'marginally better'.

      It's almost like: 80% of the work is done in no time, the last 20% take more R&D. Dell doesn't really care for the 20% of the polish and stop at 95%. Apples tries to go to 100% and get the polish up to 99,9%. Only marginally better, 4,9%. But still a world of difference.

    25. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My assumption is that a $350 laptop doesn't compare to any Apple laptop sold.

      My assumption is that a $350 laptop is not well made.

      I would say a $350 laptop is good enough for most people. The only people who could really use more are professionals, nerds and gamers. There would be no need for the average person to buy a Mac and a cheap laptop can last for years.

      Yea? How's the price comparison at that point? You didn't pay $350 for that Alienware, did you? I'm not arguing that Apple is the best choice, I'm simply arguing that Apple doesn't sell any laptop that comes anywhere near being comparable to any $350 laptop you buy.

      My Alienware cost $1200 last year. It was replacing a $1200 ASUS. Both are solid machines.

      Yea, that was a shitty example.

      In that we agree. :)

    26. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I think my first one was 32 GB and my second was actually a hybrid. I don't know if they even make those any more. I think it would be neat to have internal SSDs that just skipped trying to fit into a single bay and were one giant chunk of flash memory chips that would take up a couple of bays. I am also curious about the trend to make everything smaller.

      If we can fit a bizillion instructions into a 1x1 CPU why not cram all those into the same size CPU socket we were using before? Imagine how many instructions could be processed today, on a single chip, inside the old form factor like the P3s. Obviously lots would change, we'd still need the increased I/O, but there'd be loads of room for more chips. It's not like my desktop is going to run out of space - we worked just fine with those sizes in the past. There could be like 64 discrete i7 CPUs inside that old form factor. Also, this is probably why I'm not a CPU architect.

      But the trend to make stuff smaller is cool and all... I understand, I guess. But all that space that's now freed up could be filled with useful stuff like dozens of discrete CPUs for me to play with. Heat? Heh... I live in Maine, I'll stick it outside. Power? I get most of my power from solar and wind now. I actually make enough power to send some back in to the grid.

      And the kicker...

      I'm not actually sure what I'd do with the afore mentioned hypothetical 64 CPUs crammed into an old P3 slot (occupying the same space, not the same connection obviously). I really don't need faster hardware. I simply don't. I'm not sure when I realized that. I haven't stopped buying new hardware but lots of people seem to. I don't know that many people who bought new desktops lately, I don't know any off the top of my head and they'd usually tell me or ask my opinion. Well, I have. I am not counting me, I'm not normal. I really can't think of anyone that has bought one in the past year.

      I'll almost certainly get one of these Surface Pro 4s provided it isn't locked or unable to be unlocked. I don't want to run Windows on it. It looks like really nice hardware. However, I absolutely do not need it. I don't even have much use for it other than to use it to replace something that's already doing its job just fine.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    27. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you're just silly... A Lexus would make for a much better comparison... Lotus? What the heck does that have to do with Toyota? It would have made more sense if you said Porsche or Ferrari... Lotus? Really?

      Uhh... do you know what a Lotus is?

    28. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      If we can fit a bizillion instructions into a 1x1 CPU why not cram all those into the same size CPU socket we were using before?

      Heat, cost to make large dies, and various other reasons...

      Such larger chips actually do exist, try an 18 core Xeon... expensive however...

    29. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Funny that you bring up 4GB vs 16GB ram issue. Get a new mac with 4GB : then you're fucked. It's soldered down. You can only upgrade by changing the whole motherboard.

    30. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the equivalent spec. It is running software in an unsupported configuration, may be using unsupported hardware/drivers, you're taking a large risk every time you update anything, you can't get it repaired, and it probably looks like ass.

    31. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, but a macbook doubles as a fashion accessory, or so i think as i can't see why otherwise normally bright people would pay their prices for such anemic specs.

      the surface book is in the same boat sans fashion accessory. given the memory 1GB gddr5 it's probably an anemic 940m for more than double sager np7339 w/960m, better cpu choice expandable ram, anle to support 2 hdd/ssd... at $1k

    32. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      You're right. Not all PC hardware was boring. Windows was boring, though Windows 10 is pretty attractive looking. PC OEM's did try their hand at designing high-end kit to compete with Macbooks. The problem is that they didn't sell. Given the choice of a cheap PC that does everything the high-end one does for 1/3 the price, customers went with the cheap one. Apple didn't have that problem, because they only made high-end (or at least high priced) stuff. So Microsoft can wade in and produce some expensive high-end stuff to try to get some Apple-level buzz, but the PC market will always be dominated by cheaper stuff - because it exists. MS, Dell, et al may even make some money selling their fancy stuff to status-conscious business traveller types that can get their companies to pay for it, but tech wants to be cheap. Apple fans would be buying cheap kit too, if they could...

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    33. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I suppose I should have been more clear. We do have them but not in workstations or home PCs for the most part. And we can deal with the heat - I'm assuming. We're already pretty good at that? We've been dealing with heat since the mentioned P3 was hot enough to warm a small house. :D

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    34. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is nothing overly special about a MacBook, other than it costs a lot and says "Apple" on it.

      The alternatives blow. This trope is old, and fortunately, largely died years ago.

    35. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Besides the benefit of online account sync, the other feature I'm excited about with Windows 10 is Cortana.

      We have iPhones, and use Siri every day. I use her to set reminders, make appointments, call people, text message people, do math, etc.

      I want that same feature in Windows, but always on and with a good mic that picks me up across the room.

      Frankly, I'd like to see the option to remote mic and speaker the house, so I can talk to her anywhere and have it be more like in Star Trek: TNG when they could just talk to the computer anywhere.

      That day is likely coming, but I get that not everyone will be so quick to embrace it.

    36. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      We don't have them in our home or workstations because we don't need them.

      Oh sure, more power is nice... but it isn't needed... how many people are willing to pay for it?

      It is a small market, thus it costs more. Even today's machines are largely more powerful than most people need.

    37. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Voice recognition sucks compared to keyboard. The only reason people use it on phones is because the touchscreen is an even worse input device.

      When it comes to my PC, I can type 120 WPM without errors. You can't do that with voice.

    38. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by KGIII · · Score: 1

      While certainly true (and I somehow closed this window and am now retyping this) there is so much potential there. Obviously it would need to be affordable. I do understand the trend towards miniaturization. I'm just pondering what might have been or what could be.

      A long time ago I had a couple of towers. One was from Cray (that same company) and another from Digital. (It even had a modem.) Both of them were huge. Absolutely huge. They took three men and a boy and had things like the "bigfoot" hard drives in them. At least that's my memory of those heady days. Well. a limited subset of those memories.

      Anyhow, can you imagine how much compute power we could fit into those today? We could cram everything PLUS the kitchen sink into them. We might even have an OS designed to take advantage of that while still being a desktop(-esque) system and we probably would if they were available and relatively inexpensive.

      Can you imagine what the creative people could do on something like that? Need? No, we don't need it. It would still be nice to have. Properly cooling and managing the power would help and I'm sure that people smarter than I could make it work.

      Actually, I bumped into an application yesterday. It's even free... Here:
      http://www.cgal.org/

      On that page, just on the front page, there are a few pictures of things people have done with that application. Imagine, if you will, it having enough raw horsepower behind it to have nearly infinite data points. Imagine, if you will, that running in real time (or at least damned quickly).

      And you're right - I don't even come close to using the resources I have. I don't even bother with a swap partition. Half the time I don't even install the OS but run from a live disk. I understand there's no need. But I can imagine the possibilities if it existed and was common. I can imagine the many ways that people would/could take advantage of those resources.

      Even ten years from now, I'll still wonder the same thing. It could also be said that I'm curious if we'll ever start clustering and off-loading compute cycles on a regular basis and with the home PC market in mind. I'm neither qualified nor able to make such but I can imagine what might have been had we just kept up the density while keeping the form factor the same.

      Hopefully that explains my thinking better. We've interacted enough to know that I'm not so very good at articulation. I am verbose, there's that. Can you imagine what might have been? Need? Nope. Want? Well, at least as a choice and at a reasonable price. I don't have the power to control anything. I don't know how I would use 64 discrete CPUs, specifically on the desktop, but I believe someone would show me how.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    39. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows is still clunkier than OS X and the fucking trackpad is a POS. The keyboard is only a bit better. Why can't Dell fix those two rather important little bits? Beats me, but they haven't.

      Because Dell doesn't know the difference between "Price" and "Value". So, when you use whoever's parts ar cheapest this week, like Dell, you end up with a POS that breaks in two years, and never worked very well even when new.

      What's funny is that when it came out, Windows 7 was clunkier than OS X of the same period; but, even with the mild "iOS-ification" of the OS, OS X has just gotten less and less "clunky" over time, while Windows has gotten more and more "clunky".

      I use pretty much every version of Windows at work, both Desktop and Server, from WIndows 7 forward and Server 2003 forward, every single day, and have used OS X from 10.0.0 to 10.10 Yosemite on a daily basis at home, and there are VERY few things I would like to port from Windows to OS X, but a metric buttload of stuff from OS X that would be nice to have in Windows.

    40. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the trackpad. Come on world, is Apple the only company that can make a really good trackpad?

      Apple drones like you are always fabricating shortcomings in other companies where there is none. I have owned and worked on many laptops that had trackpads and I can't think of a single time when I thought "this trackpad really sucks compared to other trackpads". They are just capacitive touch sensors. You can't really improve upon that for their purposes.

      Maybe I should say that all Apple touchscreens suck because they don't have integrated active digitisers.

      It's not just the trackpad itself (although Apple has that aspect, hands down, too!), but it's the software that interprets what you are doing on that trackpad. And sorry to burst your bubble; but when it comes to trackpads, Apple rocks, and everyone else can just GTFO.

      Don't know why no one else "gets it", but they just don't.

      Maybe those trackpad companies are filled with people like you.

    41. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, you are stupid. No I said Lotus, I meant Lotus. You're comparing bargain basement to high end. There are many other brands I could have picked from, but Lexus is Toyota which means you clearly are utterly failing to understand that you aren't buying the same thing. But even Lexus to Toyota is more appropriate t

      Give up on those retards. You'll never educate them.

      People with that mentality never get the difference between price and value. To them, they are synonyms. But of course they aren't.

    42. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny that you bring up 4GB vs 16GB ram issue. Get a new mac with 4GB : then you're fucked. It's soldered down. You can only upgrade by changing the whole motherboard.

      Guess what?

      LOTS of Wintel laptops (and even desktops) are doing that now, too.

      Funny how that works...

      Having said that, I don't like it much, either.

    43. Re:Why you need profits to motivate innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple has great marketing and has done a good job at convincing people that their version of part X is somehow magically better than Dell's.

      What you don't get is that a computer system is much more than just a box of spare parts.

      Windows takes that box of spare parts and makes it into something that, although serviceable (mostly), in no way speaks to the user's "soul". Apple's products just do. Silly enough as it sounds, there are things that you use because you have to, and things that you use because you like to.

      And the difference is impossible to explain to someone who has never let themselves experience it.

      That's not the Kool-Aid talking, it's decades of daily experience with both alternatives.

  4. Dumb Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are plenty of innovative designs out there. Microsoft's machine is clearly targeted to be a MacBook killer but I doubt that would really move the market.

    1. Re:Dumb Article by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      Enh. I have a feeling that the MacBook isn't a big seller because it's a better product, it's a big seller because Apple has been, and still is, really brilliant about developing "mindshare" amongst enough people to make a substantial profit. So they don't have to deliver a new product that's substantially better, because their followers will upgrade merely because it's new. Even when that means learning to do without some things they used to have (firewire).

      It's *way* too late for Microsoft to build that kind of following. And this leaves them nowhere to go. Microsoft's machine is not a MacBook killer for one simple reason -- it doesn't have the Apple logo on it. And that's enough. They can't do it on specs, because there just isn't enough technical differentiation anymore to really swing people one way or another.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:Dumb Article by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Using mindshare to sell your products means you aren't going to expand your market significantly. MacBooks obviously have qualities that appeal to people, or they wouldn't sell. Apple works on making them nice and easy to use, and many people are willing to pay for that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    3. Re:Dumb Article by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Using mindshare to sell your products means you aren't going to expand your market significantly. MacBooks obviously have qualities that appeal to people, or they wouldn't sell. Apple works on making them nice and easy to use, and many people are willing to pay for that.

      But seriously... What's the real functional difference between the Lenovo X series and the Macbook Air? Besides the logo?

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Dumb Article by GreatDrok · · Score: 1

      "MacBooks obviously have qualities that appeal to people, or they wouldn't sell."

      Indeed, and it isn't price. Start with a well built case - I know the guts are the same as any PC but Macs are incredibly well put together compared with the typical cheap PC and to get a PC that competes with a Mac for build quality you actually spend more because those PCs don't sell in the same volume as the Mac does. Go figure, the Mac is cheaper.

      Then you add an operating system that is solid and stable and designed for the machine it runs on rather than being a combination of drivers from various vendors to run whatever the currently cheapest components are stuffed into a box all on an operating system that just doesn't know what it wants to be - desktop, tablet, phone. Choose one MS. Seriously, Windows 10 is still a huge step backwards from Windows 7 even if it is better than Windows 8.

      The SurfaceBook looks interesting but it isn't reigniting anything. If I want to spend that sort of money, I'm not buying a Windows box, I'm buying a Mac and if I want a Windows box, I'm not paying that money, I'll take the cheapest crap Dell and co are putting out. There's the crux of the problem. All the money is going to Apple even if MS and co are getting the volume. Making little money on high volume isn't a good business to be in because you have a lot of customers to support and insufficient cash coming in to do it. The result is your software appears buggy and you appear unable to deal with it. Sound familiar? Worse, if I wanted something really cheap, I would look at a Chromebook. MS is getting squeezed at both ends and they don't have an answer. Windows 10 certainly isn't it.

      We're witnessing a change that has been brewing for a long long time. The roots of things change date back into the 90's and the momentum is now so great that MS hasn't got the power to push back. They can either accept it and restructure around the new reality where PCs and Windows aren't the centre of the computing world, or they can die.

      --
      "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
    5. Re:Dumb Article by blindseer · · Score: 1

      I also saw this in the 1990s. Microsoft has long been an anomaly. It's been rare to see an operating system be developed separately from its hardware. Think of all the different operating systems you have used, and paid for, and tell me which ones were not developed by the same people that built the hardware.

      I think back and there was Commodore, Atari, SGI, Apple, Sun, DEC/Digital, and I'm probably forgetting some. All of them had the same company build the OS and the hardware. Some of them tried to survive by separating the OS business from the hardware business but none were successful with competition from Microsoft, Apple, and (IMHO largely) Linux.

      Free operating systems like Linux killed a lot of unix-like operating systems, leaving the desktop to be split between Microsoft and Apple. It seems it's quite hard to maintain an operating system on your own without hardware profits to keep it funded. I'm amazed Microsoft has survived as long as it has without a large hardware division to fund their software development.

      My predictions of Microsoft no longer licensing their OS and make their own hardware like Apple may come true, I'll only be off by a decade or two on when that happens.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    6. Re:Dumb Article by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I plan on buying the Surface Pro 4. Of course, I plan on putting Linux on it - probably Lubuntu but maybe Debian or Arch. Maybe Elementary but that'd not be a long-term install by any means. The form factor looks interesting and it's got nice specs. I really don't need yet another computer but that's never stopped me before. In fact, that's kind of been a problem in the past. I have hardware still in boxes. I have a variety of hardware that spans the ages and I do get rid of it over time but I also like keeping a little from each generation to save for posterity.

      Anyhow, I don't want to admit this but I did look at the article(s). I didn't read them, calm down. I looked at the pictures. I did read the words under/in the pictures and kind of skimmed a paragraph. Yes, I'm aware that I almost broke the rules but I felt it necessary and think the end result is good. Meaning this...

      If this pisses off the OEMs and they don't have much in the way of recourse - maybe they could start offering more Linux desktops? You can generally find a few, here and there, but I can't say that I've ever once bought one just to have Linux installed. I generally buy white boxes or see something on sale that catches my eye and buy that. I can get an OS installed and generally don't like what it came with so that doesn't stay installed at all.

      But, if they want to swing back at MS for this then offering and heavily promoting Linux might actually be a good way to do it. Don't mistake me for a zealot, however. I don't generally recommend people use Linux unless they have a compelling reason to switch. I'm the jackass that suggests people use what works best at allowing them to accomplish their needs with the least amount of effort. For most people, currently, that's Windows on the desktop. If they want something different (or better, in my opinion) then Linux it is... Or BSD... Anyhow, the OEMs could offer it, promote it, and whatnot... That's one way of swinging at MS and at least giving them a bloody nose before MS kicks the shit out of them. I mean, if you're going to get your ass kicked then you might as well fight back.

      I don't know what they'll do and that's not a prediction - just a possible turn of events. It'd be interesting to hear people talk about the new Dell commercial that is advertising compatibility with Linux and coming installed with Ubuntu on it.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    7. Re:Dumb Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh? I've bought a Macbook in 2009 and I'm still using it. It is now faster than originally with the latest OS because I installed an SSD and added memory. I'm not constantly buying new Mac's because I'm an Apple sheep. I bought a Mac because I was fed up with all the Windows issues, and the slow downs from the moment you add an anti virus. And especially because I've a linux like terminal. I almost never use my Linux desktop anymore, because the Apple OSX gives me everything I need thanks to the port tree.

      That's not because I'm an Apple fan boy, but because I like a good working product. I've always been a buyer in the high end market. But I've noticed that Apple is cheaper/higher end than their Windows based competitors.

      Another problem is that I would like a high end Linux laptop, but there are still issues with Linux on a laptop. Especially the battery life is problematic. That's my greatest wish: a company that designs a high end laptop that runs and supports Linux with open source drivers and with the same battery life as a Macbook.
      By the way, I still do 7 hours with my 6 year old laptop on one battery charge (originally only 6 hours, but several updates have made OSX less power hungry), so I can work all day on battery when I want to.

      So there you have it, I've bought a Mac because it is a better product than the alternatives. I don't want to run Windows. Unfortunately Linux still hasn't the hardware makers support in the laptop world. But that isn't even a surprise. I don't know many laptop makers that innovate. All the innovation has to come from MS, because MS has created a market where hardware makers have to use Windows and can only compete with each other on price and not features. When a hardware feature is added, and Windows doesn't support it, than that feature will not work like it should.

      Investing in supporting Linux is risking that Microsoft will step up and punish you. When Microsoft doesn't, it means higher R&D costs that have to be earned back with higher prices and loosing the race to the bottom.

    8. Re:Dumb Article by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      There was a precedent with CP/M. CP/M was a boring OS running on very boring and generic hardware (you have a 8080 or clone, text mode and floppy drives) made by many companies or possibly hand built by an individual.
      MS-DOS was more of the same on IBM and compatibles, but easier - a standardized BIOS, floppy formats, keyboard interface, graphics standards etc. Around 1993, Commodore and Amiga were killed off and around 2000 the Unix workstations (that weren't even marketed to the general public) died off too.
      Eventually smartphones followed that model : everything uses Android. That's when smartphone adoption skyrocketed. (there was Windows Mobile before it, funnily)

      If you weren't around using computers in the 80s or the very early 90s, you are likely to only ever have used MS-DOS, Windows and maybe Linux. Some people had a computer that didn't run an OS (Commodore 64 etc.). I had gaming consoles that didn't have an OS (that was the norm in the 80s and 90s)

    9. Re:Dumb Article by Archimonde · · Score: 1

      But seriously... What's the real functional difference between the Lenovo X series and the Macbook Air? Besides the logo?

      Not OP but, I had some time to play with a x1 carbon (first version) two years ago and it was definitely much worse than my then 3 year old macbook air.

      For start the trackpad was unusable. Yes it was that bad. Keyboard was definitely better than Air's but not *that* much of a difference. I never saw a laptop with a keyboard which was unusable though.

      Display was not so much better, cannot remember anymore. And I hate 16:9 screens.

      Battery life was poor. Windows performance was also not as expected because it was full of Lenovo programs.

      So yeah, I definitely can say that the experience was not so great. I hope the last gen is better though. The second gen had strange keyboard layout and non-physical F buttons (which is a bad joke). And also terrible trackpad IIRC.

      --
      Trolls are like broken clocks. They show the truth two times a day. The rest of the day they talk nonsense.
  5. That's one way to do it by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

    This is an interesting way for Microsoft to throw away bags of money for nothing. PC sales are declining for a reason. It's interesting to see how they've become exactly like IBM.

    1. Re:That's one way to do it by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 5, Interesting

      PC sales are declining for a reason.

      You make a statement, but don't give the reason.

      IMHO, one of the biggest issues is that PCs have been "good enough" for some time now for everything but games, and even then they haven't been growing much.

      Office 2016 doesn't run noticeably faster for 95% of what people use it for on a 6700K Skylake than it does on a Core2Quad Q6600.

      Windows 10 also runs just as well on a Q6600 as it deos on a Core i7 whatever. Oh sure, it IS faster on the newer machines, but not by so much to make millions of people throw them out.

      I have a dozen computers of various power levels, ranging from the above Q6600 up to a Haswell i7 4790K refresh, having recently retired the last Athlon X2 5000 machine a year or so ago (it was just so old that it wasn't worth testing against anymore, if you're using something 10+ years old, it is time to upgrade).

      Windows 10 runs beautifully on all of them, and while I can see a difference when they are side by side, on a stand alone basis, they are all "fine".

      That is the real problem, IMHO.

    2. Re:That's one way to do it by BaronM · · Score: 1

      Yep - nailed it.

      I'm shopping for a new laptop now for homework (elementary school), replacing a 2006 Dell D620 (C2D, 2GB RAM, upgraded to SSD). The only reason I'm replacing it is that it died. Otherwise, for what it did, it was still 'good enough'.

      I'll grab another business-class laptop (yes, they are worth the premium IMHO), probably a factory refurb, and I bet that will be 'good enough' for schoolwork until the day it dies.

    3. Re:That's one way to do it by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      Stating the obvious shouldn't require a reason.

      Back in the day, PCs are all you had. So if you wanted to connect to AOL in 1993 you had to have your PC. Since then, a vast majority of consumer tasks have moved from the PC to the laptop and now to the tablet or other consumer electronic device. Sure, there is a need for desktop machines in some work environments but even those are being supplanted by laptops in most companies. Hell, a lot of the modern PCs aren't all that far removed from laptop class hardware but with a bigger box, more monitor plugs, and a built in power supply. And in the home, the clunky desktop machine is vanishing altogether. Even the laptops are giving way to tablets and TVs that do all of your media streaming by themselves. Gaming has moved from the desktop to the laptop or game console. And at some point, it will be in the domain of the tablet/console. The PC simply has no future. There just isn't any reason to invest any resources in trying to revive a dying segment of the market. You'll never recover your investment.

    4. Re:That's one way to do it by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      The faster based on specs fuel innovation is looking at it thru a 1990s glasses. PC makers don't get it.

      What is innovation? Apps that do new things, smaller, power efficient, shareable work flows, cloud integrated, high dpi, more mobile, better asthetics, etc

      Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      Office 2016 you quote? HUGE upgrade. Shared editing in real time with integrated Skype and chat is sweet for college students and groups. You can write a paper in real time and see others writting while having a video conversation. Functions are now searchable too. Yes Google Docs ripoff. :-)

      I own a surface 3 pro which slashdot tees LOVE to bash as the coming of the anti christ with systemD as it's prophet. Truth be told it is night and day compared to a bulky core laptop with battery life and boot up time thanks to ssd and efi booting. Metro actually works. Lenovo yoga, HP convertables, and surface pro rock.

    5. Re:That's one way to do it by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The primary differences between tablets and PCs are the fact that the PC is an open platform and PCs use different inputs. Most PCs are also vastly more powerful than their tablet counterparts but most people don't care about that.

      A tablet simply isn't suitable for all tasks. At some point you want a proper graphics terminal. At that point, it doesn't cost much more these days to just include the PC parts.

      Tablets provide some relief for those that thought they were trapped with Windows but the form factor is still going to be a problem in a lot of situations.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:That's one way to do it by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      Microsoft: Yesterday's technology, tomorrow!

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    7. Re:That's one way to do it by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      PCs are faster and bigger in all respects. That includes displays, storage, CPU power, and just app/gaming potential. Phones are terribly limited. The one key advantage they have is portability. They're ubiquitous. Beyond that, they're actually pretty crappy.

      Phones are just (crude) terminals really and sooner or later you need a real machine of some sort to support it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:That's one way to do it by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The PC isn't going away any time soon, but I don't see sales rebounding for a long time. There are things best done with more powerful systems like desktops and laptops. There are tons of software written for Windows and maybe Mac, and that's not something to throw away lightly. There's lots of roles for computers with good keyboards and good screens.

      IBM still sells mainframes, the hardware alone bringing in about $20 billion in first quarter 2015. That's not peanuts. Mainframes are expensive, but very useful for things like transaction processing that has to be extremely reliable. PCs are going to stabilize at some number considerably above that, I'd think.

      Microsoft's still in trouble long-term, despite everything they're going to do to push PCs.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:That's one way to do it by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Ask a Mom or Joe six pack which he uses Facebook more on? The answer is their phone followed by an ipad.

      Better graphics, battery life, starts instantly etc. MS has to make the surface and surface laptop which has ssds, thin, boots quick, has 200 dpi, and modern chips are more power efficient.

      Sorry phones are innovation. PC is mainframe and lame for the users.

    10. Re:That's one way to do it by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      IMHO, one of the biggest issues is that PCs have been "good enough" for some time now for everything but games, and even then they haven't been growing much.

      I also see a major reason is that for a long time, PCs were the only way to do things. Want to see videos, read email, visit a website: You had to have a PC as smart phones/tablets sucked. So people had to get a PC. Really the average consumer didn't need it; they just needed something that would work and PCs were the only solution. These days tablets and smartphones fulfill what your average consumer needs. Add to that other features that PCs are not good at doing: ebook reader, jogging tracker, etc, its not surprising why many people are not getting PCs. For example, many parents were set up with PCs for a decade and barely used them. Most of the time we had to clean up a lot of infections. They both got tablets and use them all the time.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re:That's one way to do it by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The SSD is the last most "amazing" upgrade IMHO for PCs in awhile...

      It brought back to life a number of machines that felt "slow".

      Put a SSD in a Core2 machine and suddenly you've removed the major bottleneck for a lot of things.

      My Mother-in-Law has a 2008 era AMD notebook, it runs some dual core something or other (I haven't looked at it in about 2 years). I dropped a 120GB SSD into it 2 years ago and she sees no reason to replace it, it is "Fast enough".

      She uses Facebook, the web, plays solitaire, etc. She recently upgraded it to Windows 10, runs perfectly.

    12. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is innovation? Apps that do new things, smaller, power efficient, shareable work flows, cloud integrated, high dpi, more mobile, better asthetics, etc...Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      So, you basically want a closed-architecture device whose producer decides what you can do with it, whose computing power is 95% lower than a PC, and that sends all of your private data straight to advertisers and the NSA ("cloud integrated"...).

      Congratulations, you're "the average joe", one random idiot. Enjoy the next episode of Keeping Up With The Katrashians.

    13. Re:That's one way to do it by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      Gaming has moved from the desktop to the laptop or game console.

      That comment has been made before... many times...

      You know what? The irony is that a PS4 or XBox One is really a desktop PC, abit one that you can't modify or upgrade much.

      Yes, much of what the average person does with a computer works fine on a tablet or laptop, nothing wrong with that. The one area that will have problems for a long time to come is games.

      And by games, I don't mean solitaire or candy crush, I mean Call of Duty type games. Those need lots and lots of power, something you can't get in a laptop due to size/power limits (there are rare expensive exceptions, but a desktop is still the best choice for those.

      Yes, game consoles play many modern games as well, but they have the benefit of fixed hardware that can be optimized in a way that PC gaming cannot be, but that is also their limit.

      The PS3/XB360 were great at launch, but REALLY out of date by the later years. The PS4/XB1 are fine today, but already they are behind a decent PC's performance.

      4k gaming will require a whole pile of GPU resources the current machines do not have and it may be 7+ years before we see PS5/XB2.

      The PC desktop market will never again be what it was in the 90s, but it isn't going away either.

    14. Re:That's one way to do it by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Gaming has moved from the desktop to the laptop or game console.

      Uh, no. One might temped to think so with Best Selling Video Games, but the PC Market is holding its own.

      Some genres are significantly superior on PC.

      i.e. Let me know when I can play Starcraft 2 on a console.

      > The PC simply has no future.

      Content creation isn't dead.

    15. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is innovation? Apps that do new things, smaller, power efficient, shareable work flows, cloud integrated, high dpi, more mobile, better asthetics, etc...Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      So, you basically want a closed-architecture device whose producer decides what you can do with it, whose computing power is 95% lower than a PC, and that sends all of your private data straight to advertisers and the NSA ("cloud integrated"...).

      Congratulations, you're "the average joe", one random idiot. Enjoy the next episode of Keeping Up With The Katrashians.

      Not at all. UEFI is an open spec. Newsflash the latest phones have the power of a high end 2007 era core2 with 2 gigs of ram and a dedicated gpu. UEFI, nvme, usb, and other technologies are open.

      My phone and surface are readible in the sunlight. Is your dark 100 dpi bargain basement part HP/Dell laptop work in the sun as well? How quick does it boot?

    16. Re:That's one way to do it by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      Who gives a flying toaster about useless gimmicks? You know what really sucks? Squinting at a tiny little display while trying to enter text into worse than membrane class on screen keyboards. Phones are better than nothing when your on the move..otherwise a torturous waste of time.

      What is innovation? Apps that do new things, smaller, power efficient, shareable work flows, cloud integrated, high dpi, more mobile, better asthetics, etc

      Innovation is monetizing the user.

      Office 2016 you quote? HUGE upgrade. Shared editing in real time with integrated Skype and chat is sweet for college students and groups.

      If people actually cared it would have existed a long time ago. See also google wave which nobody gave two shits about either.

      Truth be told it is night and day compared to a bulky core laptop with battery life and boot up time thanks to ssd and efi booting.

      When people mention boot up time I tune out. Who turns off their computers? So it boots a few seconds quicker who gives a shit? My laptop boots once every month or two to install patches otherwise suspend to ram or disk.

    17. Re:That's one way to do it by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf . Bulky plastic, mechanical disks, etc

      Not really sure what purpose more than 100dpi would solve on my 2560x1440 monitor, but then again, I sit further from my monitor than I use my phone. It makes much less sense to have 100 dpi on a monitor, and less still to have it on a TV.

      And what? Mechanical disks? You're aware that flash disks for PCs are a thing, right?

      Shared editing in real time with integrated Skype

      What on earth is the point in that?

      I've done lots of shared editing with completely unintegrated voice clients. It's not like you can't copy/paste from the chat either. I can't see what integration buys you.

      I own a surface 3 pro which slashdot tees LOVE to bash

      No you don't. I've never seen anyone bash a surface 3 pro here. Ergo you don't own one that slashdot loves to bash. You just own a regular one. They look quite nice. I'd rather like one. I don't much care for touchscreen stuff, but a proper graphics tabled input would be nice. The weight is nice too. Looks like the run linux well enough as well.

      Truth be told it is night and day compared to a bulky core laptop with battery life and boot up time thanks to ssd and efi booting

      1. The surface 3 pro is a core laptop.
      2. Can you even buy laptops with mechanical disks any more?
      3. you reboot? Why on earth do you do that? On my linux laptops, sleep works flawlessly. They generally wake up in a couple of seconds at most. Plus of course running a solid OS means rebooting is never necessary unless I want to install a kernel upgrade. Maybe you should try upgrading windows to ubuntu or something.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    18. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again looking at it thru the 1990s lenses and missing the leaves from the forest.

      Phones are going metal ,goriila glass, gps sensors, have more apps, can do health monitoring, 11k resolution (google this for Samsung), metal finish, viewable in sunlight, etc.

      Besides Apple what has the pc market done? Oh yeah have cost accountants race to the bottom for everything. Yes MS is doing new things with the surface laptop to play catchup.

      If the phone is sooo horrible why do users browse the web and use facebook on their phones preferably over their pcs?

    19. Re: That's one way to do it by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      That's because Windows loves to thrash your hard drive and the SSD removes all the random system slowdowns and freezes that that causes.

    20. Re: That's one way to do it by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      And every other OS is different?

      Do any MacBook's come with HDDs anymore?

    21. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at all. UEFI is an open spec. Newsflash the latest phones have the power of a high end 2007 era core2 with 2 gigs of ram and a dedicated gpu.

      NEWSFLASH: we're in 2015, IDIOT. PCs' computing power is now roughly 5X-8X bigger than in 2007, your smartphone is just a toy in comparison. Plus, either you root it or you cannot even change the OS. Finally, most importantly, the baseband - which is entirely closed source and full of security holes - has direct access to RAM, basically NSA's dream.

      But all these things are too much for your brain. Enjoy some trashy TV shows in the evening.

    22. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have an old C2Q Q6600 machine. I upgraded to an i7 3770K a few years back, and let my mom use the old system. Then I got her a tablet, and she doesn't use the Q6600 anymore. I'm about to repurpose it into a pfSense machine. It should be plenty to handle gateway/firewall duties and even a decent filtering proxy for my house. Win10 telemetry won't get past my gateway.

      If it weren't for that Q6600 machine, Win10 wouldn't run beautifully at all! And it's totally fine!

    23. Re:That's one way to do it by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You type pretty well for someone in elementary school. Your UID is awfully low too. Are you using your dad's account (or your mom's) perhaps? It's a sad state of affairs when elementary school kids get so much homework that they need to buy their own laptop!

      *giggles like little schoolgirl*

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    24. Re:That's one way to do it by msobkow · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting people choose a device based on whether they can use Facebook on it?

      I feel oh so very sorry for anyone who lives such a shallow content-consumption life. :(

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    25. Re:That's one way to do it by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      It struck me that you seem to be making a distinction between "PC" and "laptop", whereas most discussions I've seen tend to lump them together. For instance, in the article listed, Microsoft is not building desktop machines. They're building laptops or hybrid laptop/tablets. The article is still calling those PCs.

      So, even substituting "desktop PC" everywhere you said "PC"... I agree with everything except your conclusion. The PC (both desktop and laptop) isn't "dying". It's market is shrinking, but that's a far different thing, even if the curve looks the same. And add to this that hardware speeds have largely leveled off, no longer prompting sales to replace older "obsolete" computers.

      The PC is now much more of a niche product, of course, in that it's mostly used by gamers, tech enthusiasts, content creators, businesses, and so on. There's a lot that PCs can do that no other form factor can do as well, and as long as that's the case, the PC will still have a home with those people.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    26. Re:That's one way to do it by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Because they're users and not makers. The more I think about this, and I've been lurking in this thread pondering and searching for an hour or more now, the more I realize... Good. I'm glad they have devices for slurping up data. Get them, and their retarded questions, off the internet. Hell, let them build a whole new protocol for mobile morons who can't figure out how to keep their PC safe.

      They didn't really belong on a desktop anyhow. They still don't. Maybe we can go back to having desktops be places where you go to get shit done. This trend, this moving the consumers to small-screen mobile devices that are limited and disposable might actually be a good thing. This might be the end to Eternal September and that's a good thing.

      It's okay to use those devices. Absolutely. It's okay to even like them and geek out on them. But if it moves the consumer to mobile friendly sites and keeps them from asking questions about various things then I'm sort of liking that idea. You can even use both in your life but it may not be a bad idea to encourage these people to select mobile devices like phones and tablets. Let them compute there. They're already gaming there. They're already browsing there. Good. Keep them there.

      There are still plenty of us that want enough compute power to do something (should we want) and plenty of people who game or the likes. There are still those who want a full keyboard. I have a tablet. I kind of hate it. I have several of them - I've tried a bunch more. I'm just not into it.

      Hell, encourage grandma and grandpa to get a tablet. They won't be calling you to add RAM. They won't need to have you fix their malware. When the device breaks they can chuck it in the recycling bin and upgrade like a good consumer because that's all they use a computer for - consumption. And that's okay, there's a place for them. Make them less of a hassle and it's all good.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    27. Re:That's one way to do it by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I've been running Lubuntu lately so, of course, that means I've been helping them out on their forums and SE site. Please, stop encouraging the idiots to use Ubuntu. We've got enough already. Today I had someone tell me that the listed stats (at ever site) were wrong and that Intel was wrong and that their CPU from 2004-'05 was 64 bit - which it could have been except nowhere on the internet indicated that this was the case and every site agreed it was 32 bit. As in, this was a fairly popular model and the entire internet didn't notice that the OEM and Intel were wrong so they were silent. So this person was really, really, unhappy that their Kubuntu 64 bit didn't actually work very well. Imagine that... They were quite certain it was 64 bit.

      Please, don't send more. ;) Send them to DSL, Puppy, or Elementary, or maybe Arch - Arch is always wanting new users, right?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    28. Re:That's one way to do it by DomainDominator · · Score: 1

      How come Mac sales keep increasing quarter after quarter if software is running just "fine" on older hardware? People want to be delighted and Microsoft has awoken to that with Surface Pro 4 & Surface Book.

    29. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better graphics

      LOL

      battery life

      And worse performance per watt.

      starts instantly

      Really? When I power on any phone or tablet, it takes a while to boot. My PC is much faster.

      MS has to make the surface and surface laptop which has ssds, thin, boots quick, has 200 dpi, and modern chips are more power efficient.

      I have a 4K display on my computer. Which phone or tablet has that? And what are "modern" chips? As far as I know, the most modern computers in the world use Intel chips, which is what most PCs use.

    30. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point. Would you force someone that only needs a scouter to commute to work in to buying a Lambo?

      "PC"(whatever this term means nowadays) as a mainstream consumer device are marketed entertainment and communication tools. If an iPad can do that better, easier and cheaper than a PC, then the iPad will win. Some applies to consoles versus gaming PCs.

      Average Joes and Moms don't give a flying fuck about programming or modding or customisation or any of those things. They have a very limited set of applications in mind and whatever does those tasks more efficiently is what they are going to buy.

      The only reason PCs, as in Windows x86 desktop and laptop computers, boomed in the 1990s and early 2000s was because those were the only digital devices that could do what the mainstream consumer market wanted. There were some other competitors like Amiga and Mac and mainframe computers, but those didn't have all the mainstream consumer apps or were too expensive. Nowadays that everything has a full blown SoC computer inside and can do most if not all the basic apps that the mainstream wants, there is zero need for the average person to buy a traditional "PC".

      The "PC" market will always exist for enthusiasts and professionals that need one, just like you still can buy mainframe supercomputers. But it's stupid to expect "PC" to be a mainstream commodity.

    31. Re:That's one way to do it by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf .

      Are you buying shit screens and then complaining about the result? Also do you sit 6in from your 24" monitor?

      Bulky plastic,

      Huh? Wtf are you buying?

      mechanical disks, etc

      No! STOP! Really just stop!

      Get out of the second hand thrift shop and actually go to an electronics store.

    32. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know, I like my 8 core 16GB of ram machine with it's 4k monitor and TBs of disk space.

      To each his own.

    33. Re: That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuckinlinuxtwit. You know jackshit. Please STFU.

    34. Re:That's one way to do it by chooks · · Score: 1

      Given a choice between browsing on a phone vs. a desktop? You have gotta be kidding me. Desktop. Every. Single. Time. Input devices that work well and a LARGE screens (multiple). Given a choice, desktop, every time.

      Now the reality is that there ISN'T a choice between phone and desktop in most cases. On the bus: phone. At a conference: phone. On the can: phone. It's great for checking up on things, facebook and whatnot, and reading limited amounts of information. But there is no way I am using that in preference to a dual 26" monitor setup with average desktop hardware if I have choice.

      --
      -- The Genesis project? What's that?
    35. Re:That's one way to do it by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Compared to phones pcs suck!! 100 dpi in 2015 wtf .

      Are you buying shit screens and then complaining about the result? Also do you sit 6in from your 24" monitor?

      Bulky plastic,

      Huh? Wtf are you buying?

      mechanical disks, etc

      No! STOP! Really just stop!

      Get out of the second hand thrift shop and actually go to an electronics store.

      You proved my point and the article :-)

      Only MS and Apple make pcs that rival phones in terms of quality and innovation. Any Best Buy will have thick bulky plastic pcs, mechanical disks, race to the bottom screens, etc. Phones will be nice and shiny. Consumers ntice and prefer phones as a result. A high end laptop? Same junk with a faster cpu and now 17 inch display that is not visible in sunlight.

      Surface is top grade.

      MS needs to awaken the industry and stop the race to the bottom.

    36. Re:That's one way to do it by bungo · · Score: 1

      Windows 10 also runs just as well on a Q6600 as it deos on a Core i7 whatever. Oh sure, it IS faster on the newer machines, but not by so much to make millions of people throw them out.

      What may me throw out my Q6600 and similar generation CPUs was the power consumption. A Core i5 was faster and used less power and needed less cooling.

      The operating system wasn't ever a consideration.

      --
      "The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
    37. Re: That's one way to do it by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about other OSes. I'm talking about Windows and Windows does this.

    38. Re:That's one way to do it by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      While you're correct that the older Core2 systems use more power per watt, they also already exist. Buying a new computer involves a lot of carbon production and waste production, if that is a concern of yours.

      It would likely take many years of use before the replacement of a Core2 with a modern machine would "pay" for itself in terms of environment impact.

      That being said, I keep the Q6600 system around, not because I need it personally, but I use it for testing on multiple OS. While it does have Windows 10 installed, it also has Windows XP installed on a second SSD, it is the last machine I have for testing XP since I replaced my older Athlon 64 x2 5000+ machine a year or so ago.

      Now THAT was ancient. :)

    39. Re:That's one way to do it by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Actually you just proved mine. Go into any Best buy and the most heavily promoted item you'll see is a Surface. Not to mention the large number of mag-alloy laptops with SSDs, IPS screens and the like.

      You have blinders on. There are plenty of laptops that are nicer than the Surface at a reasonable price too. If the Surface wasn't also a tablet I wouldn't have bought it. As a laptop alone it certainly didn't top the price / performance / quality list when I bought it.

    40. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shared editing sounds sexy until you realize that it only works with the *personal* OneDrive. Businesses are stuck trying to use the abomination that is OneDrive for Business, which is just the database-backed SharePoint dressed up in new clothes. Which means it still doesn't scale past a few thousand documents, doesn't handle file formats that are not Microsoft Office, and suffers huge performance issues if you try to use it like you would the personal OneDrive.

      We evaluated OneDrive for Business again this year, after hearing that Office 2016 would allow collaborative editing. The result is a shambles and falls far short of the promise.

      (Google Apps does a far better job of collaborative editing. But paying another $4/user/mo is a hard sell to people who have bought into the Microsoft Office 365 paradigm.)

    41. Re:That's one way to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an interesting way for Microsoft to throw away bags of money for nothing. PC sales are declining for a reason. It's interesting to see how they've become exactly like IBM.

      "PC" (Wintel PC) sales have been declining. For a reason (actually several).

      However, Mac sales have been advancing at substantial rate. In fact, Apple is the only PC Manufacturer to see an increase in sales, year-over-year.

      And you can't say it's Mac fanbois; because a sizeable chunk were formerly Wintel owners, or how else could you achieve such impressive market expansion relative to the "Windows" PC market?

    42. Re:That's one way to do it by macs4all · · Score: 1

      How come Mac sales keep increasing quarter after quarter if software is running just "fine" on older hardware? People want to be delighted and Microsoft has awoken to that with Surface Pro 4 & Surface Book.

      But please tell my why anyone would want a Surface Book that only runs Windows 10 (and maybe Linux if you're really resourceful/persistent), when they can get a MacBook Pro for a thousand dollars less, and be able to run OS X, Windows and Linux on it, plus have that famous Apple build quality?

  6. Microsoft is KILLING the PC Sector by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With most PC sales being mobile devices, and virtually ALL mobile devices using UEFI-SecureBoot WITH NO option to support legacy BIOS, it is killing an open PC platform... With Windows 10 MS will "allow" OEM's to lock the OS's(those who are going to get breaks on licenses); The end is near...

    With Apple, Google and MS obsessed with data collection on their minions, from the perspective that a persons data, buying preferences, habits, location, should remain their own, THEY ARE ALL OUT without modification.

  7. Reignite the PC industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mainstreaming $1000 video cards was a bad idea.

  8. four simple words by paiute · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Day late. Dollar short.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  9. Microsoft deciding copying Google was a good start by JoeyRox · · Score: 0

    Like adding privacy-violation features such as Window's 10 telemetry. They must have figured if it worked for Google why not for Mr. Softee too?

  10. Dang by 0123456 · · Score: 0

    And, on reading the subject, I thought they'd just announced they were scrapping Windows 10 and starting over with a new OS derived from Windows 7 that's actually designed for desktop use.

    You don't 'reignite' the PC market by shipping expensive tablet/crappy laptop hybrids that hardly anyone actually wants. The reason their 'partners' don't care is because they know those products won't affect their markets.

  11. Re:Microsoft deciding copying Google was a good st by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Big difference between tracking you when you go to a web page versus having the entire OS send tons of tracking information.

  12. 3.5 years by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

    Sales of personal computers have been declining for so long â" 14 consecutive quarters â" that it's hard remember a time when PCs ruled the tech world.

    "Please, Old One, tell us again of this wondrous age of 'Early 2012', when the great 'Peesees' roamed across the tops of the desks all over the world."

  13. IBM tried that by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 2

    IBM tried to compete with hardware using the proprietary Microchannel buss to replace the ISA/EISA buss. IBM refused to release documentation on the buss and sought to profit on licensing the standard through a certification program. Third party OEMs scoffed. IBM permanently lost market share as 3rd party MC cards, developed from unofficial specifications, proved to be incompatible which drove customers away from IBM towards clone makers such as Compaq and Gateway who stole the market with non-MC systems. The MC debacle ushered the end of personal computers for IBM.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
    1. Re:IBM tried that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your story is in no way analogous.

    2. Re:IBM tried that by KGIII · · Score: 1

      curl -s slashdot.org|sed -e 's/.*Interesting stories from crazy graybeards reminiscing: //' -e 's/ /n /n.*$//'

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    3. Re:IBM tried that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IBM freely released the info on the MC bus, however they had patents on the thing and you had to sign a patent licence agreement with IBM to get a license to use it. The cost of the license was 17k USD and that covered *all patents* IBM owned, it was not until Gerstner came that IBM started to license patents individually. Note that at the time to build a PC compatiable motherboard or use a other form of a fast bus you had to license (or sub-license) patents from IBM anyway so you probably had the license already.

  14. the coming content-creator vs consumer split by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For a few decades, it transpired that content creators and content consumers were both using the same kind of device: the desktop PC. But content consumers never, ever wanted that kind of device. They wanted a media consumption platform they didn't have to understand or think about. Basically, they wanted TV 2.0.

    Content consumers, on the other hand, wanted a powerful and open computing device.

    So these two camps want very different things, and we're seeing the start of a market split into those camps. It is inevitable that when the PC market falls down below a point, economies of scale won't be there and the prices will rise, but there WILL still be a market, because content creators are not going away. It just means that, like in the 1980's, if you want a heavy-lifting creator device, be prepared to shell out for it. Most of the world is going to mobile, and that is where the economies of scale will be found.

    Think that won't happen? Well, guess what? You have good company! The mainframe guys thought Unix workstations could never undercut them in the market. Then the Unix workstation guys thought the PC could never undercut them in the market. Just as now, some PC people think their cushy little world will carry on forever as it was. Just as then, there will still be PCs just as there are still mainframes today. But the market moved on, just as it will now, and not all the naysaying in the world will stop it.

    1. Re:the coming content-creator vs consumer split by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Think that won't happen? Well, guess what? You have good company! The mainframe guys thought Unix workstations could never undercut them in the market. Then the Unix workstation guys thought the PC could never undercut them in the market. Just as now, some PC people think their cushy little world will carry on forever as it was. Just as then, there will still be PCs just as there are still mainframes today. But the market moved on, just as it will now, and not all the naysaying in the world will stop it.

      The problem isn't hardware it is software. Nobody will be mad when their current desktop PCs some day fit snugly in their pockets as their old unix workstation does today. What people are objecting to is vendor bullshit. Unnecessary SOFTWARE restrictions, walled gardens, spyware and associated invocation of the word "cloud" as excuse for treating people like shit. The baseline capabilities of devices have improved to the point where it is now viable to have a single operating image address needs of consumption oriented mobile devices, workstations and servers at the same time.

      For a few decades, it transpired that content creators and content consumers were both using the same kind of device: the desktop PC. But content consumers never, ever wanted that kind of device. They wanted a media consumption platform they didn't have to understand or think about. Basically, they wanted TV 2.0.

      Content consumers, on the other hand, wanted a powerful and open computing device.

      So these two camps want very different things, and we're seeing the start of a market split into those camps.

      The problem has got nothing at all to do with hardware. Usability is entirely a UX/software issue. There is no coherent reason why systems can't be designed to scale.. to fulfill both roles simultaneously. This is the trend Linux, MS and others is perusing.

      Much of economies of scale are locked into fabrication capability and production of components that don't give two shits how they are used. These days automation in design tools and manufacturing options allows small organizations to mass produce millions of fully functional computers on a tiny little board for $35. Hardware is already a commodity... only a matter of time before general purpose operating systems get there.. dragged kicking and screaming but it will happen.

      It just means that, like in the 1980's, if you want a heavy-lifting creator device, be prepared to shell out for it. Most of the world is going to mobile, and that is where the economies of scale will be found.

      I'm curious what you think all of these lite-lifting consumption only devices are communicating with? Do you imagine they are talking to data centers full of racks of smartphones and tablets with an infinite number of usb cables strung haphazardly all over the place?

      Today we have hardware vendors who traditionally produced graphics chips for kids to play video games supplying critical components of tomorrows supercomputers with very similar IP between them. As baseline capabilities improve the easier and cheaper it becomes to scale to meet specific demands.

    2. Re:the coming content-creator vs consumer split by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      As long as it's easier to fill out an excel spreadsheet, type emails and communicate with people on a PC, there'll continue to be a PC in every home. Typing on a tablet for an extended period isn't fun for most people, and forget pecking at a phone. Yes cue the obligatory obsessive-compulsive who hasn't wearied of it yet, but let's not fool ourselves.

      I met a middle aged American gent a couple of years ago looking to rent out a room. No matter what else, he had to have his bigscreen TV in the room with him. Why don't you just use your laptop to watch your shows like the rest of the tenants, I asked, but nothing would budge him. I got the impression it was some sort of status symbol or cultural icon.

      And this is the false dichotomy you've created. The world isn't divided into content creators and consumers anymore, there are many shades of grey. At one time in the past it would have been true but as that generation gets older it becomes less and less so. Mainframes and Unix workstations NEVER had a foothold in the mass market and NEVER had the everyday utility that PCs bring so that analogy likewise falls short.

  15. I think they're missing the point by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think what Microsoft may not be understanding, or may be trying to ignore, is that people aren't buying new hardware because their old hardware meets their needs. In the early days, there were two major factors that drove the PC industry -- (1) low saturation. PCs were a relatively new thing, and there were a lot of people who didn't have one yet. (2) PC hardware and software were in relative infancy -- we were on the steep end of the curve -- and resources didn't meet the needs of what people were trying to do. Software drove hardware in that each new release of the OS needed faster hardware and bigger disks to run reasonably. UI was still on the steep end of the curve, with new features coming out that were actually -- you know -- relevant, and not just eye candy.

    All of that is long past now. Microsoft doesn't understand that the UI curve has flattened out, as their recent attempts to make the UI Really Different hasn't met with a lot of enthusiasm. About the time PCs routinely sold with quad core processors and terabyte drives dipped under $100, hardware stopped mattering for most people. What people could *do* with these resources started mattering more than the resources themselves. Hell, I do compute intensive work on a motherboard from 2005 sitting in a case from 2000, (running Win7 Pro) and I have no desire to upgrade anything except perhaps disk space. I do vacuum it out once in awhile.

    So, Microsoft tries and fails to develop the hipster mindshare of Apple, so they need to try something different, and they see an over-saturated market, with a plethora of hardware overdesigned for most people's needs (given that "most people" do web browsing, facebook and email and other social media, and maybe a game or two, and perhaps a movie, and that's pretty much it), and decides that's the field they need to go into.

    So... wow... I mean,... How is it they're still alive?

    Someone I know works for Microsoft, and he's really been crowing about Microsoft's new laptop and how it's the greatest thing since, I dunno, Windows for Workgroups. And I look at it, and you know... it's just a laptop.

    In summary, "reigniting the PC market" is problematic because the PC market is already saturated and over-built, and has been for years. It's like, when toasters first came out, everyone had to have one, and growth was steep. But now, everyone already has a toaster, and we only replace them when they stop working. Sorry, that's the nature of industry.

    You want to create a new market, make apps for content creation on tablets (as opposed to content consumption) and maybe tablets will see a new renaissance. I don't own a tablet precisely because most of what I use a PC for is content creation, and the apps aren't there on tablets even now.

    But PCs? They're toasters. Pick a size and a color.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:I think they're missing the point by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Basically the only thing that the average Joe might be doing with his PC where the machine he has isn't by default "good enough", no matter how old it may be, is playing games. Everything else Joe Average may be doing with it is nearly certainly going to run sufficiently fast and stable on whatever crate he has.

      It's been that way for quite a while now, actually. Since XP there has not been any big step ahead that the average person would notice in his (Windows) OS.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I think they're missing the point by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Basically the only thing that the average Joe might be doing with his PC where the machine he has isn't by default "good enough", no matter how old it may be, is playing games.

      The funny part is that few modern PC games need fast hardware because most of them are designed for consoles. Microsoft's push into the console market killed the need for PC upgrades by crippling PC gaming to the level of a five-year-old PC.

      Pretty much every time they've tried to control the market, they've just ended up screwing themselves.

    3. Re:I think they're missing the point by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      I think what Microsoft may not be understanding, or may be trying to ignore, is that people aren't buying new hardware because their old hardware meets their needs.

      Their old hardware meets their needs for now but wait till everyone and their brother wants portable augmented reality in their pocket and fully interactive VR rooms in their homes. I was hoping to see Linux become the dominant platform for this emerging scene but politics prevailed (Linux support from Oculus/Facebook has obviously taken a back seat to DirectX); there'll come a day in the not-so-distant future when families will be getting second mortgages to finance upgrades of their Microsoft Home Worldservers or whatnot...

    4. Re:I think they're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Granted, even rather cheap computers can play games that were designed for consoles. And yes, it happens much less often these days that you need to upgrade your machine in order to play new games, because CPUs aren't becoming more powerful very fast. But...

      Consider the alternative universe in which Microsoft never made the Xbox. Sony would have the gaming system on which gamers spend most of their money. It's not like PC games would be more profitable if there were no Xbox. Altogether, there would just be less money in gaming. As it stands now, game companies can invest in AAA titles, because they know they will make back their money through playstations, xboxen and wiis. Given this calculation, they throw the PC community a bone and make a PC port. Because MS increased the size of the gaming sector, it means that there are actually more games for the PC. Nobody would be making even Skyrim-scale games if they were counting on the PC market to make back their money.

      And because the DirectX department at MS is actually doing a pretty good job, all the gamers are going to be forced into Windows 10 in the next few months, because DirectX 12 will be indispensable and it only works on Win10. What I'm saying is that in the big picture, MS played their hand pretty well. They just aren't holding very strong cards. They missed the boat on mobile hardware, but they didn't completely screw up on games. The fact that people have run out of reasons to upgrade computers is not something that MS can fix.

    5. Re:I think they're missing the point by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I think what Microsoft may not be understanding, or may be trying to ignore, is that people aren't buying new hardware because their old hardware meets their needs.

      Their old hardware meets their needs for now but wait till everyone and their brother wants portable augmented reality in their pocket and fully interactive VR rooms in their homes. I was hoping to see Linux become the dominant platform for this emerging scene but politics prevailed (Linux support from Oculus/Facebook has obviously taken a back seat to DirectX); there'll come a day in the not-so-distant future when families will be getting second mortgages to finance upgrades of their Microsoft Home Worldservers or whatnot...

      Too much Science Fiction in your statement. VR has been out for quite a while in TVs. Sales of these never spiked, and people don't run out and buy 3d movies. Soldiers use some of the augmentation technology, but that is a very special case market. Joe Coder, Chef Jane, and Pat the Welder don't want or need VR and/or augmented information. Well, Joe the coder might want a nice eyeball display, but that is only for the pr0n and not because of work.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    6. Re:I think they're missing the point by blindseer · · Score: 1

      I was going to post something very similar. There's a reason why Microsoft is having a hard time getting people to upgrade their OS and is now effectively giving it away now. With Windows XP people got most everything they need to run their computer today.

      There was a time when I'd have friends and family give me their old, yet quite functional, computers just to get them out of the house. Computers got real cheap, real fast. I noticed that at some point no one would give me a working computer any more. I'd get half way working computers, like laptops with busted displays, but none that are fully functional. No one has given me an even half way working computer with anything newer than Windows XP on it. Not only are computers cheaper but they are better built, they last longer than they used to.

      I regularly use computers that are close to ten years old. I have more than one computer at home, of course, the newest is three years old. I have one that I'm not sure how old it is that I use to play StarCraft (the first one), run a serial console for my Cisco rack, and a few other odd tasks. I have no desire to replace them so long as they keep running. I may add another to my collection out of a desire to run some new software, which may include Microsoft's operating systems. With what I do I highly doubt that any new operating system or tablet from Microsoft is going to compel me to buy what they are selling, I'll just replace those computers that break.

      Another thing that is likely slowing new computer sales, and is quite outside of Microsoft's control, is the economy. I'd like a new "toy" if work was coming in like it used to but until work picks up I'll be satisfied with what I have now. I suspect I'm not alone, until people start making more money they are not likely to replace a working computer.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    7. Re:I think they're missing the point by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Sony would have the gaming system on which gamers spend most of their money.

      Uh, you do know that the PC gaming market is larger than the console gaming market, right?

    8. Re:I think they're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may be true. But, why are all almost all major pc games just shitty ports of console games now?

    9. Re:I think they're missing the point by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      That may be true. But, why are all almost all major pc games just shitty ports of console games now?

      Because porting a shitty console game to a PC is much easier than porting a complex PC game to a console with 1/4 the power.

    10. Re:I think they're missing the point by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Too much Science Fiction in your statement. VR has been out for quite a while in TVs.

      There's at least one difference between you and I: you see what is and I see what will be. I'm not wishing for it nor am I imaging it; it's where we're headed and all your reasoning and justifying won't make the least bit of difference. In fact, this greatly reminds me of a conversation I had with a camera shop owner in '94 when I warned him what the coming of digital would mean. Like you, he articulated all the "valid reasons" why I didn't know what I was talking about."

    11. Re:I think they're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3D is not VR.

      I wouldn't describe the display as the only component of a VR system. So far only decent VR display I've seen is the Occulus Rift, and so far they've only released dev versions of that.

      Personally I still don't see it being a big market, but it is inaccurate to say it's been available for some time. That market is still very immature.

  16. Laptop... with removeable keyboard! by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, a laptop with a removeable keyboard!

    So unlike the old Surface, the tablet with an attachable keyboard...

    Not only that, but "it’s impossible to close the laptop all the way." Just what I've been looking for!

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  17. reignite? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    oh god they are going to burn it all to the ground like they did back then with the 286 and msdos

  18. Game mods? by tepples · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even the laptops are giving way to tablets

    If you want to type anything longer than a paragraph, you need to add a keyboard, which turns your tablet right back into (yes) a laptop.

    Gaming has moved from the desktop to the laptop or game console. And at some point, it will be in the domain of the tablet/console.

    Let me know when tablet or console games have (legit) mod support nearly as thorough as that in PC games. If your answer is Super Mario Maker, let me know when it has tools to create new block types or new enemy types.

    1. Re:Game mods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what is the market for mod making pc's? Hundreds of millions potential mod makers?

      What Facebook user types more than 2 paragraphs? How many Facebook users even want to read more than 1 paragraph?

      Most people had a PC because it was the only way to communicate over the internet. Now they no longer need a PC for that. You might be surprised how little people actually need Office, the main selling point of Microsoft: Office on the desktop,laptop, tablet and phone! What a productivity!

      But nope, the old powerpoint mails no longer exists, they are on social media now. The invoices in pdf are now openend in a web browser. Filling in details in excell cheats is no longer needed, it is gathered and automatically synced on the cloud on a smartphone.

      A desktop is slowly becoming a niche product, and in a market of niche products the race to the bottom doesn't exist. Those who really need a desktop spend money for good quality and support. They don't need that desktop for some chatting and social media, but to do their main job. That's why you see so many Macs in some professions: accountants, lawyers, designers, photographs, ...

    2. Re:Game mods? by danomac · · Score: 1

      If you want to type anything longer than a paragraph, you need to add a keyboard, which turns your tablet right back into (yes) a laptop.

      Sorry, but no.

      Biggest problem with this (and yes, I have tried it myself) that if you actually want to sit a tablet and keyboard on your lap to work it's too damn flimsy. At least with a proper laptop the screen they keyboard and screen doesn't want to tip in pieces off your lap.

      You can get wireless versions - I found these are harder to use as per my comment above. You can get cases that kinda-sort-of connects the tablet and keyboard together but again, too damn flimsy to use.

      And with most tablets lacking local storage (and being heavily cloud-dependent) and having really crippled apps compared to desktop versions if you want to do any real work you need a real laptop. Otherwise if you get spotty LTE service/wifi you're really screwed.

      I have helped a couple people I know who run their own business who bought tablets thinking they'd be great for work use were very disappointed. They said great if you need to look something up on the fly while out and about but for real work they're not very good.

    3. Re:Game mods? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      That's why you see so many Macs in some professions: accountants, lawyers, designers, photographs, ...

      And new, startup businesses of all shapes and sizes are predominantly Mac-based for their business PCs.

      Watch "Shark Tank" sometime. When they do one of their "Let's see how they're doing" segments, the businesses are almost always Mac-based. It's actually amazing the ratio of OS X to Windows in these new businesses, that don't have legacy "Exchange" baggage.

  19. Now that the PC is a surveillance device... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... how can anyone expect us to embrace them more?

  20. Secure Boot vs. Restricted Boot by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    virtually ALL mobile devices using UEFI-SecureBoot WITH NO option to support legacy BIOS

    Secure Boot is a UEFI feature that requires bootloaders to be digitally signed with a certificate stored in the PC's firmware. But there are two ways to implement it: normal or forced. With normal Secure Boot, the owner of a PC can replace the certificate or turn off the feature entirely. Forced Secure Boot, sometimes called Restricted Boot, cannot be disabled, much as in iOS devices and major video game consoles. In the Windows 8 (x86 and x86-64) era, Microsoft required normal Secure Boot for logo certification; it forbade Restricted Boot. As of Windows 10 (x86 and x86-64), Microsoft has changed the policy to allow either normal or forced Secure Boot. In theory, PC buyers could just avoid PCs with Restricted Boot, so long as they don't greatly outnumber PCs with normal Secure Boot. Have x86-64 PC manufacturers actually started to implement Restricted Boot widely?

  21. What do People need? by decipher_saint · · Score: 2

    My parents use their computer to browse the internet, connect with people via social media and play browser based games. All these things are achieved with an average smartphone / tablet.

    I use a computer to make software, do business, make artwork, play video games. A phone is nice but it will be along time before I'm running Visual Studio off it, a PC fits my needs.

    I'll take a wild ass guess that most people don't need a desktop computer to do what they need, and that's why there is a shift, and why there is no need to realign them.

    There is a market for desktop computing, it's just not nearly as big anymore.

    --
    crazy dynamite monkey
    1. Re:What do People need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed!!

      The PC will never die completely since there are those that need it to do specific work that is best done on a PC (at work or home), but most others had a PC to access the web, check email, and use social media. They can do all that on their phablets now, so they don't see the need to have a box sitting somewhere plugged into a wall to do it.

      Ever since my wife got a 4.7 inch or larger screen on her phone, she hasn't touched her laptop in over two years...which reminds me I need to sell it on eBay.

  22. Simple by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Sell me an OS instead of using the OS to sell me.

    Somehow people don't wanna be a product, ya know...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Simple by vandamme · · Score: 1

      We'll do better than that. We'll GIVE you an OS that's safe from malware, and doesn't phone home to the NSA or Microsoft.

      With your choice of a dozen desktops.

    2. Re:Simple by iampiti · · Score: 1

      I think like you but, sadly, we're a minority. I'd buy a version of Win 7 with the updated internals of Windows 10 but with nothing of the spying crap, forced integration of MS's services and metro/mobile apps and UIs in a heartbeat, and I'd pay good money for it, but they're just not interested in that.

  23. 14 quarters by ISoldat53 · · Score: 2

    14 quarters of failing to meet the expectations of their customers.

  24. Windows 10 by Dracos · · Score: 2

    Wasn't there an article the other day about the PC sales slump continuing because Win10 got pushed out as a free upgrade? Anything MS is doing with their own hardware isn't a market rejuvenation, it's a land grab. I predict within 2 years Redmond will outright buy an OEM, possibly with a Nokia-style Trojan executive scheme.

  25. Memo to fascist Microsoft Corporation: by kheldan · · Score: 0

    You want to 're-ignite' the PC market? How about you start with not trying to take complete control of our computers, which by the way we didn't get handed to us for free, we PAID for them, and furthermore stop spying on us and leave us the hell alone!

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Memo to fascist Microsoft Corporation: by KGIII · · Score: 1
      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  26. The OEMs did revolt by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 1

    First they refused to go along with windows rt and undercut win8 every chance they could. Then they shoveled a bunch of crappy chrome books out the door. None of that helped, though they were right about winrt. So now they have nowhere to go. It's not like Apple will let them ship osx so what are they supposed to do? Ship Linux systems? Good luck with that...

    Nope. They're still hitched to windows because that's what people want, especially now that Win10 is a huge hit.

  27. No, No, and No again! by s.petry · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It is not a fringe minority on Slashdot by any stretch of the imagination. The Snowden leaks have had legal ramifications world wide and changed how US companies have to do business across the globe. Even the nanny State of California just had to sign a No SPY-ON-US bill because even the far left is afraid of the behavior demonstrated by the NSA. (And of course the turds holding office that are allowing and pushing this behavior.)

    Because people were not out burning buildings and killing people you believe there was no impact? I'll give you that the legal process is not fast, but there has been some ground made. Not a lot, and not enough.. but some. Further, I'd almost consider what we see in politics as a mass riot. The entrenched are having a really hard time and I don't see it getting any easier for them (even though the media is pandering it's ass off)

    What Google did and does is not the same as MS having a build in keylogger sending your Keystrokes to MS. I'll give you partial credit for that, but have to point out that you are completely ignoring how bad Windows 10 is. Why are they getting away with it so far? Well it's a few months in and it's a "free" OS. People have figured out how to turn things off already, and I'm sure this will get better over time.. That "better" has nothing to do with MS however, it's intelligent consumers circumventing MS.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does Windows 10 really include a keylogger? (Spoiler: No)

      Conspiracy theories sometimes take on a life of their own, independent of the facts. Here's how this one got started.

      http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/

    2. Re:No, No, and No again! by s.petry · · Score: 0

      You, an anonymous person on Slashdot, are a higher authority than the people who make and market the software? Really? The installer has an option defaulted to "ON" which states very plainly "Send your keystrokes and typed information to Microsoft and third parties".

      I don't need a 3rd party to interpret English, I speak it and read it just fine.

      Note that this "option" gives no method of tuning or controlling what gets sent or to who it gets sent to, at least during the install.

      No, I refuse to do the work for you. I gave you the method of proving my statement true. I have installed Windows 10 on 3 separate VMs so far (no physical machines) and each time used the custom option to disable that 'feature' (and several more) .

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    3. Re:No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't ask you to do anything for me, nor am I claiming any authority.

      You're just rambling and spouting FUD, so I called you on it.

      I run Windows 10 and have never encountered this key logging, nor have I ever been prompted to send keystrokes anywhere.

    4. Re: No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Help me! I just sent my keystrokes to /.

    5. Re: No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irony is apple, android, and blackberrys (sprint only) got busted with key loggers in 2013 and 2014

    6. Re:No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      LOL! ZDNet? Really? They're some of the biggest MS shills on the net.

      I and many others can PROVE that there is a keylogger with a simple packet analyser. Everything you type into your start menu gets sent to MS.

    7. Re:No, No, and No again! by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 0

      It is not a fringe minority on Slashdot by any stretch of the imagination.

      Yes it is... Outside of tech sites like this, I have heard no one mention it, much less care...

      The Snowden leaks have had legal ramifications world wide and changed how US companies have to do business across the globe.

      I think you read more into the news about all that then there really is.

      It is a lot of noise, shouting back and fourth, but it is just a distraction. Even the Germans didn't really made a deal out of our spying on their PM. Oh sure, they shouted about it in the media for a week, then life moves on.

      I'll give you that the legal process is not fast, but there has been some ground made.

      The legal process doesn't have much to do with an illegal act, now does it? Much of what the NSA has been doing is already illegal, so a legal process is just theater.

      have to point out that you are completely ignoring how bad Windows 10 is.

      But that is the part you're having trouble with. I'm not ignoring anything, I don't honestly have a problem with what Windows 10 is doing.

      I'm not ignorant of the situation, I just don't care about it. So they are tracking what programs I run, what web sites I go to, and what searches I do. Ok... good for them.

      Why are they getting away with it so far?

      Because the majority of people shrug their shoulders and move on, not worrying about it. People are not concerned that MS is going to hack their bank accounts, or steal their CC info, or randomly mail their nude pictures to people.

      That is all people really care about, that stuff.

      People have figured out how to turn things off already

      You must be joking... your average person wouldn't know how to run Windows Update, much less mess with privacy settings. Why do you think MS went the "Windows Updates can't be turned off" in the Home version? Because people don't do it...

      That "better" has nothing to do with MS however, it's intelligent consumers circumventing MS.

      The percentage of people who mess around with the settings is always going to be a low number. I know how to do it, but I don't care to do it.

    8. Re:No, No, and No again! by s.petry · · Score: 0

      I am telling you what the Windows 10 installer, from Microsoft, states in plain English. I have no idea how many hells of denial you are in to claim "Nuh Uh" when their own installation tells you what it does. Good grief, run a CUSTOM INSTALL. Or don't, but troll elsewhere.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    9. Re:No, No, and No again! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      In Canada there was a huge public backlash when the government wanted to start spying on our internet activities. Took 3 or 4 tries before they could sneak the law through (on the pretense of stopping bullying) and the mother of the girl who they used as the victim was actually crying while saying that she did not want this. The problem is the government is more focused then the citizens and they just keep trying while most people are just trying to get by.
      Bill C51, our equivalent of the patriot act, is an election issue but so are other things and with the right more united then everyone else and also being good at pressing hot button issues, they are likely to continue their tyranny of the minority.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    10. Re:No, No, and No again! by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Our media even talked about the renewal of the Patriot Act, and it renewed anyway...

      Frankly, having two or more parties is just about keeping people happy with thinking they have a choice, I don't like any of them anymore.

      But it is our own fault for electing them.

    11. Re:No, No, and No again! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Frankly, having two or more parties is just about keeping people happy with thinking they have a choice, I don't like any of them anymore.

      Generally I agree but Harper has taken Canada in a whole new direction that the majority don't like.

      But it is our own fault for electing them.

      It's an interesting election here with currently a 3 way tie. 2/3rds of the voters are against Harper but he is likely to get in again

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    12. Re:No, No, and No again! by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      It's an interesting election here with currently a 3 way tie. 2/3rds of the voters are against Harper but he is likely to get in again

      So don't elect any of them, write in someone else's name.

      Heck, write in my name, I'm American, so I have no prior bias! :)

      All kidding aside, if I could be the President of the US tomorrow, lord... I don't know how long I'd last, given that my simple directive would be "do the right thing for the citizens of this nation".

      Other nations, corporations, special interests, all come second.

    13. Re:No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EULA says there's a keylogger. Also says they will disclose to third parties the contents of files in private folders. MS will have to make some MAJOR changes if they ever want to make a sale here ever again. It will take a LONG time to regain my trust, should they ever care to try.

    14. Re:No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are also taking your private files stored locally.

    15. Re:No, No, and No again! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      No write ins here. I have often voted for the Rhinoceros Party, even if they are a bunch of Marxist-Lennonists but I've always liked Groucho and John and their promises were more realistic. Fix the environment by banning it, get rid of crime by getting rid of all laws. Annex America and make them a territory. And of course repeal that pesky Law of Gravity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Sadly last election there were only 3 choices on the ballot where there used to be at least a dozen.

      Being Canadian, if I could be PM, my simple directive would be "do the right thing"

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    16. Re: No, No, and No again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are referring to this for Apple's "Keylogger", you're really stretching a point.

      Apple was warning the USER that a "Custom Keyboard" in iOS COULD send User's Keystrokes off to some unknown server for "further processing". Well, Duh!

      At least it was nice enough of Apple to warn the User that that COULD happen. And the big difference is that (I think) it only applies to 3rd-party Custom Keyboards. But quite frankly, I'm not sure that ANY App on ANY Platform can be stopped from being a "keylogger" in its spare time.

      Microsoft's "keylogger" is somewhat different, in that it is baked right into the OS. BIG Difference.

  28. last time i looked in the store, shelves were bare by kenj123 · · Score: 1

    I looked at the store in windows 8 and most of it was boring to scary (viruses). They need to get interesting app. ms office just isn't going to do it.

  29. Microsoft partners will ditch them soon by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft entering hardware business will lead to bad blood between HP Acer Asus Dell Samsung and the like and Microsoft. No matter how much it assures the partners, things will sour. The culture in Microsoft, the incentives it sets up, the way it administers incentives etc leads all the Microsoft employees to game the system and get any advantage they can get from other divisions to win over the competition. That tiny division will have some VP who would do things to get an edge over the rivals, and it would snowball. Microsoft does not know how to play nice.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Microsoft partners will ditch them soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where have you been? MS has been a major player in the hardware market since at least the mid-90's and a lot of their hardware is very good (way better than MS software, for sure).

    2. Re:Microsoft partners will ditch them soon by KGIII · · Score: 1

      They do make good keyboards and mice.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    3. Re:Microsoft partners will ditch them soon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Acer, samsung and asus would hurt alittle but Microsoft would use their other products too. Dell and hp well they are dinosaurs.

  30. microsoft needs to start with itself! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't blame hardware manufacturers when its your bloated windows software that started it all. What a mess that is!

  31. The shrinking of the PC market... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... has made it difficult to purchase a Linux machine in certain configurations.

    While a Linux PC can be bought somewhat easily, notebooks took a nosedive and the only ones we can find over here are the cheap ones -- little RAM (typ. 2GB), slow CPUs (Atom, Celeron and the like), standard (low) resolution: 1366x768, not ultra-lightweight but weighing 2kg+ etc.

    There are less Windows notebooks to choose from, less variety (W8 mostly upgradeable to W10) and the Linux offers also dwindled.

    Whether this will be reversed or not is secondary. We should be seeing Linux tablets and smart phones, but it seems we won't (*). I think Android is (not GNU but is) Linux; that said, there are other things that make Linux interesting, like distributions, constant updates, vulnerabilities being patched in hours, Firefox (too heavy for phones) to cite a few.

    I'm worried about that: I need Linux on my devices, but can't have it.

    (*) Why not? Because phones are a powerful tracking device and Linux makes that harder to do. Also, how can you sell a new phone if the user upgrades the software of an old, perfectly working phone?

  32. A PC is required for content creation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you do any sort of content creation of importance or serious gaming you will need a PC, period. Mobile is fine for consuming and clicking like on Fecebook. The thing is, we are no longer in the 90' when your PC was obsolete before you could bring it home from the store. I have a PC from 2009 and even though I'm a heavy user, it is still more than adequate. I will probably build a new system in 2016, but only because the current CPU's use much less watts.

    The reason for the declining PC sales, is simply becauses they become obsolete much slower than earlier, and not because everyone is suddenly happily programming, editing videos and doing spreadsheet work on a walled garden amputated mobile platform.

  33. I want a pc that fits in my pocket and has a touch by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 2

    I want a pc that fits in my pocket and has a touchscreen. It needs to be able to make phone calls and receive texts. It would be nice if I could also listen to music and if it could connect to things via bluetooth. Wi-fi would also be a good feature.

    Someone told me that such a PC might already exist.

    But in reality there is a PC that I would like that is close to the above. I want a PC basestation that is effectively my phone. Something that is just a keyboard, mouse and monitor but gets its computing power from my phone. I would snap the phone in and boop, I have a good computer, I pull it out and I have a good phone. Ideally though when it was a computer it would actually be a computer with proper mouseclicks, complicated interfaces, and whatnot. But when it was a phone it wouldn't be a crappy little computer but a good phone. But the real killer is that the basestation would not be proprietary to just that company or even just that phone series but general to all makes and models that supported the standard.

    Oddly enough one of the things that has hurt the PC market is that about 8 or so years ago most cheap laptops and desktops were good enough for most people's purposes. They could watch 1080 videos without stuttering, they could connect to Wi-fi faster than their ISP would feed them data, and the USB standard means that few devices shortly before or anytime after wouldn't work. Unlike the 90s when this year's computer could do things that last year's couldn't we have nearly a straight decade where 99% of people don't need more power than is available in any of the latest machines.

    We are now crossing that threshold with phones. They are crossing a power demand for most people. More than 1080 on a typical phone is nonsense, more than a quadcore 1.5ghz processor is nonsense, more than G wi-fi is nonsense, more than LTE data is nonsense. The few features that people really want are more battery, more durability, and lower price.

    So why not take this ever growing pile of power and combine it with the generally minimal needs of the laptop/desktop world?

    With a proper keyboard, mouse, and interface tied into a smartphone I know of few people who would need anything more than that.

    Then the era of the PC would simply have a new chapter.

  34. I got a great idea! by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    1) Stop shipping U.S. jobs to india and replacing those here with H1B's. H1B's should be reserved for brilliant and rare candidates who are truly in short supply.

    2) Stop being so evil with Windows 10. Seriously- rip a lot of stuff out.

    3) Develop something cool that actually needs more power. My computers have been at 5% to 10% CPU for the last 15 years except when playing currently released video games.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  35. Aps might eventually do it in the long run by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1

    Apps for Window Phone and Windows 8+ will take a long time for a adoption. But once some good ones are out there, people will like Windows for its ability to run apps without getting a virus. If Microsoft designed Windows98 from the ground up for the Internet, they could have made it so .exes could have been run safely without getting a virus. I'm surprised they waited 15 years before making the apps that are run unable to give the computer a virus. It should catch on eventually, but adoption is slow.

    1. Re:Aps might eventually do it in the long run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when did you write this? 2008?

  36. Re:I want a pc that fits in my pocket and has a to by garethjrowlands · · Score: 2

    Sounds almost like you're asking for this: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us...

    But that can't be right!

  37. Hot Rod Dinosaurs by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1
    The PC has it's place, but basically when you have near the power of a laptop at your fingertips with broadband speeds, things that you would normally go "check on the computer" just aren't done any more.

    Sure when you have work to do you need an actual workstation but the days of the Desktop (Personal Computer) let's not forget what PC stands for... are gone your real "personal computer" sits in your pocket.

    If MS really wants to reignite the PC industry they need a compelling reason for you to sit your @#$ down... and take it seriously. In other words, focus on BIG things that your phone just can't do... markets evolve, and companies need to evolve with them. Who would have thought that in 2015, the OS debates would be centering around Google and Apple, and that they would be about MOBILE OS'.... and that MS would be the one that everyone predicts the "Death of" at least in the mobile space.

  38. Microsoft No Longer Led By Engineering Genius by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft took a nose dive when Bill Gates left and put that marketing baboon in charge, Steve Ballmer.

    Their current maangement do not understand we want an OS that is optimized for performance and does not get in your away.

    Windows 10 gets in the way, looks aweful, destroys privacy and is super annoying to use. This marketing approach to designing OS has led them astray and I hope they die now... and I was a 100% Microsoft programmer from the early days... C/C++/C#/.NET etc.

    Microsoft have a real stink about them... I'm pretty sure if they had a leader like Elon Musk, sales would be super high, and we would all be joining them on the next adventure...

    RIP Microsoft. - Linux Mint its the sweet spot for me, and I'm really looking forward to Vulkan.

  39. oh boy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could it be because the majority of people don't need PC's and they are happy with their mobile phones? The only people I could think of that need pc's are programmers, graphic designers, engineers,scientists, pc gamers which is something like 0.08% of u.s population. People still physically shop at retail stores and don't need stuff from amazon. PC and internet technology is overplayed and they will continue to decline. I prefer DVD's/Blue-Ray's over streaming services. The U.S internet will continue to be a big joke.

  40. Imagine if someone said, by jpellino · · Score: 1

    "Hey! Cars aren't selling! We'll try making some too!" "They'll also have a bicycle and roller skates and a jet pack built in!" You would walk away from them very fast.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  41. MICROSOFT by rawtatoor · · Score: 1

    Why don't you stop trying to feed me. Finish your stupid shitty software.

  42. But on which side are college students? by tepples · · Score: 1

    content creators and content consumers

    The use of the loaded terms "content", "consumer", and "creator" is slightly confusing. I prefer "users who create works" ("authors") for short and "users who view works created by others" ("viewers" for short). But terminology aside:

    So these two [author and viewer] camps want very different things, and we're seeing the start of a market split into those camps. It is inevitable that when the PC market falls down below a point, economies of scale won't be there and the prices will rise

    At first, I sort of agreed with your core sentiment that the economies of scale for devices for creating works may evaporate as walled garden mobile devices continue to gain popularity among pure viewers. But there will still be a need for devices on which university students can prepare homework, and a locked-down walled-garden device such as an iPad isn't quite ideal for a freshman computer science course. On the one hand, this means that at least university students will form a market for PCs. On the other hand, it could justify overcharging for PCs the way publishers overcharge for textbooks.

    Slashdot users' opinion on this issue appears split. Some users, such as betterunixthanunix and one Anonymous Coward, think children will be harmed by lack of access to devices designed for creating works. Others, such as geekoid and another Anonymous Coward, think used laptops and Raspberry Pi single-board computers ought to be enough for anyone.

  43. Well Duh, Unified Extensible Firmware Interface by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

    The field has changed, anything they make can be made to run only what they expect and nothing more.

    I have a Laptop with an UEFI I can't access it to change it, so it's stuck to 8.1; a worthless POS, I dislike very much.

  44. Replace laptop when it stops working by tepples · · Score: 1

    It's like, when toasters first came out, everyone had to have one, and growth was steep. But now, everyone already has a toaster, and we only replace them when they stop working.

    But in this market, even replacements can often be hard to find. I have a 10 inch Dell laptop running Xubuntu that I use to work on hobby coding projects while riding public transit to and from my day job. But since December 2012, it's hard to find a 10 inch laptop. With what should I replace it once it stops working? I looked around, and unfortunately, the 10 inch 2-in-1s such as ASUS Transformer Book don't seem to work well with any X11/Linux distribution that I'm aware of.

    1. Re:Replace laptop when it stops working by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Replace laptop when it stops working by JanneM · · Score: 1

      The Panasonic Let's Note series has 10" display models, and they've always worked quite well with Linux. Not cheap, though the quality is really good.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    3. Re:Replace laptop when it stops working by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1

      Not specifically what you're looking for, but have you looked at some modern PC tablets? I am currently typing this on a keyboard attached to my Dell Venue 11 Pro... about the same form factor as the Surface Pro it replaced (though smaller than the Surface Pro 3/4. Great screen, ridiculous battery life... and yes you can put Linux on it.

      I am currently in Windows 10 because I use OneNote a lot... but I have this set up to dual-boot to Linux as well and it works fantastically well.

    4. Re:Replace laptop when it stops working by tepples · · Score: 1

      the 10 inch 2-in-1s such as ASUS Transformer Book don't seem to work well with any X11/Linux distribution that I'm aware of.

      have you looked at some modern PC tablets?

      Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "modern". I looked at the ASUS Transformer Book, and all sorts of things are broken in Linux.

      and yes you can put Linux on it.

      Do Wi-Fi and suspend work? They do on my current machine, and I want them to work on any replacement once my current machine suffers inevitable hardware failure. I haven't seen one web browser whose capability to restore the previous session after a PC restart includes the content, not just the URL, of web pages open in tabs.

  45. That's like saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I don't think PCs are boring, no more than
    > your average Mac, which is the same thing.

    > There is nothing overly special about a MacBook,
    > other than it costs a lot and says "Apple" on it.

    That's like saying there's no difference between a Yugo and a Porsche. Sure, they'll both get you there, but they're NOT the same thing!

    Yeah, they'll cost you more, but add in all the antivirus, and time wasted with support, etc., etc., etc. Sure there are other issues, but calling them the same thing is balogna.

    1. Re:That's like saying... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      No but, to use your example, I can buy a BMW for much less than a Porsche and have something functional, stylish, more than able to keep up in the real world, and actually get stuff done without having to worry about arguing who is and who isn't right on the internet.

      Also, antivirus and support? Do you know where you are? We *are* the support and we don't need antivirus because we don't run Windows.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  46. What a farce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The stated reason that Microsoft got into the PC hardware business three years ago, with the original Surface, was not to put PC companies out of business — but to better illustrate the capabilities of its software, providing devices that would inspire PC makers to be more innovative"

    ....which required a lot of OS support... How were 3rd parties expected to accomplish this without heavy OS modification that is much easier for MS to do? Part of why Windows 8 was designed that way was due to MS's Surface initiative, and I don't think the desires of a 3rd party wishing to " illustrate the capabilities of the software" would have been able to pull it off (although that is up for debate) without the ability to modify the OS, shell, and underlying APIs in the way MS could.

  47. Cooked the goose that laid the golden egg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No doubt they are oblivious to the damage they did so will be unable to undo it. Good ridence.

  48. driods circling.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This may be why they suddenly have a small swarm of droids walking the floor of my local big box electronics store. Funny how people are generally avoiding the laptop area.......
    { I have an "upgrade" to suggest myself, go to linuxmint.com }

  49. Re:I want a pc that fits in my pocket and has a to by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 1

    Actually other than it being by Microsoft that is pretty damn close. The key is that the docking hardware is of such a common standard that I could hook up my iPhone, android, MS phone, etc and they would just go, "Oh look a docking station; now I'm a desktop,"

    If I had to make a prediction this hardware probably costs way too much and thus it would be cheaper to go get a halfway decent laptop and/or the thing is going to be so proprietary that it will only work for even a limited number of MS phones of a single brand let alone other OS based phones.

    Yet this would be a brilliant thing for them to licence to the other companies, they could have the standard on connecting phones like this.

  50. Re:I want a pc that fits in my pocket and has a to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are now crossing that threshold with phones. They are crossing a power demand for most people. More than 1080 on a typical phone is nonsense, more than a quadcore 1.5ghz processor is nonsense, more than G wi-fi is nonsense, more than LTE data is nonsense. The few features that people really want are more battery, more durability, and lower price.

    802.11ac has quite a few advantages over G, besides speed. But I agree with pretty much everything else you've said.

  51. Re:Microsoft deciding copying Google was a good st by KGIII · · Score: 1

    You know that Google makes one of the most popular OSes on the planet, right?

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  52. Wow... by DomainDominator · · Score: 1

    Tough crowd in here. If MS survival came down to Slashdot population it would be out of business in 30 seconds.

    1. Re:Wow... by messymerry · · Score: 0

      Yes, and rightfully so. M$ has done some truly awful things, like willfully and maliciously trying to get people to format ext drives when they are plugged into windows machines. Furthermore, after my experience trying to load LInux on the ASUS X205-TA, I will never ever do business with ASUS again. ASUS, I hope you enjoy being M$'s bitch. My clients will get other manufacturers machines. M$ is nothing more than a big bloated infantile thuggish brat. A Baby Huey if I may say so. Without big Govt. and Big Business support, they would shrivel up and blow away. I fired M$ in 2006 and never looked back. The devil had to enlarge the 9th level of hell to accomodate the whore M$ and all her sycophants.

      --
      Dear Microlimp: I give you 2 valid product keys for win7 and you reject both of them. Piss off you wankers!!!
    2. Re:Wow... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      If MS survival came down to Slashdot population it would be out of business in 30 seconds.

      Whereas it will probably take 30 months. Win10 looks like a whole pallet of coffin nails to me.

      Surely PC sales have shrunk cos everyone who needs one has got two, and what most people actually need is a tablet and/or phone and they have that already too.

      And the people that actually USE PCs sure as hell do not want Windows - as they are rapidly learning.

      Stop with the buggy whips already!

      OK, I ignored he Apple users. They are on a different planet.

      Disclaimer: my family have been computer users since the IBM709.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    3. Re:Wow... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      OK, I ignored he Apple users. They are on a better planet.

      FTFY.

  53. Re:Microsoft deciding copying Google was a good st by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same thing. Big difference between tracking when you are using an application versus having the OS itself spy. You can run Android without gapps perfectly fine.

  54. PC sales were never bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this ideal that PC sales is terrible is ridiculous. Just look at how just in a couple months more PC's run Windows 10 that's just Windows 10 then all Mac's running any kind of OS X. That's the real magnitude of how big Windows is and how the expectations of PC sales is always much higher. I think in general we saw a faster turn over rate in PC sales before other devices started taking disposable income away from people buying PC's. Smartphones, tablets, the recession. They all contribute to a inability to keep selling huge numbers of PC's. Even Mac sales are now falling not rising albeit at a slower pace. No doubt for the same reasons. People don't need to keep replacing Mac's any time a new model comes out. The advances in technology have slowed and a 4 year old PC can still run Windows 10. I certainly do not see Apple Mac sales taking away PC sales in the least. With Microsoft distributing Windows 10 for free I don't see PC sales making a huge comeback in sales until that free one year period is gone. Then you'll see more people buying new hardware when the option to upgrade will cost them. This is also affecting Mac sales as OS X is also freely distributed and El Capitan runs well on even 4 year old hardware too.

    1. Re:PC sales were never bad by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      there's more windows 10 cause MS gave it to you in a download, not becuase people bought new PC's the two are completely unrelated as it is very much possible to be runnung a 5-6 year old rig with windows 10 and never even notice a difference tween that and a brand new machine for most average applications

  55. Are laptops "desktop" or "mobile"? by tepples · · Score: 1

    And what is the market for mod making pc's? Hundreds of millions potential mod makers?

    It's not only the thousands of mod makers but also many millions of mod users. Unlike PCs, locked down platforms such as iOS and video game consoles have cryptographic mechanisms to prevent the owner of a machine from installing and using mods created by other dedicated amateurs.

    A desktop is slowly becoming a niche product, and in a market of niche products the race to the bottom doesn't exist. Those who really need a desktop spend money for good quality and support.

    In this respect, is a laptop "desktop" or "mobile"? It's battery-powered like a mobile device, but it runs desktop applications on a desktop operating system. And a lot of these desktop applications are used by millions of university students on millions of laptops. For example, good luck finishing "Intro to programming and problem solving with C++14" on an iPad.

  56. To me, "working" includes suspend by tepples · · Score: 1

    From the linked article by David Elner about dual-booting Ubuntu on a Surface Pro 3: "Sleeping the system while running Ubuntu does not work. (Instantly wakes up.)" In a Disqus comment to that article, Emre Erenoglu called lack of suspend a "deal breaker." It is also a deal breaker for me. I want my session to be restored when I come back to the machine after having taken my seat on the bus, and I want pages open in tabs in the web browser to still be open and loaded even if I have no network connection. Shutting down in a desktop environment that supports session restoration and starting the computer once I have taken my seat is not a substitute, even if it is faster on SSD than on an HDD, because tabs open in the web browser reload to "Problem opening page: You are offline". The buses in my city do not provide Wi-Fi to riders. Has suspend on the Surface Pro 3 improved since December 2014 when the article was published?

  57. Is Panasonic's warranty valid outside Japan? by tepples · · Score: 1

    This page says they're exclusive to Japan. I don't live in Japan. Is the warranty valid outside Japan?

    1. Re:Is Panasonic's warranty valid outside Japan? by JanneM · · Score: 1

      I have no idea. But they are aimed at business users, especially for frequent traveller-type people. I would not be surprised if they're covered worldwide. Send Panasonic in your country an email and ask.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  58. PCs still rule the tech world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's hard remember a time when PCs ruled the tech world

    PCs still rule the tech world. It's just that they're so ubiquitous that we don't notice any longer that they're still there.

    Kind of like the way we don't notice the air.

    Where I work, most people spend 7+ hours on their PC every day, but maybe 30 minutes or so with their smartphones. It's blindingly obvious which device rules the workplace.

    1. Re:PCs still rule the tech world by neminem · · Score: 1

      That and PCs are so good that we don't need to keep replacing them every year or two just to run software, as opposed to only replacing them when they're actually unfixably broken, which is not that frequently, since they're also generally pretty good at not breaking.

      So basically Microsoft's mission to "reignite the PC sector", sale-wise, would have to be, "get PC manufacturers to sell us suckier computers that break more often". Great.

  59. IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Basically, MS is IBM, but they want to be Apple.

  60. It's easy to remember, it's today! by The+Real+Dr.+Video · · Score: 1

    "it's hard (to) remember a time when PCs ruled the tech world" Really? We (a small Consultancy and VAR serving professional offices and SMB) have had record hardware sales this year both in servers and client machines. Guess what? In several hundred client computers sold only one was a convertible/tablet type of form factor. Most were desktops and a handful were laptops. I have noticed a shift to smaller machines, for example most of this year's desktops were Lenovo Tinys since they take up very little space and have the same capabilities as a full sized tower or desktop form factor (minus the card slots which nobody in business ever uses). I'm going to assume that the creator of this article is talking about the consumer market since the business market doesn't resemble these remarks in any way.

    --
    Officially a geek since 1984
  61. Microsoft needs to: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Forget hardware and to concentrate on it's lacklustre operating system which has taken an incredible hundred steps backwards and reverse cliff dived from earlier revisions of Windows, and on top of that OSX is just killing it as to what an OS is and SHOULD be doing to aid the user of the device (Look up "Define", Keychain, Spotlight etc).

    Windows 10 settings are as confusing as hell with Control Panel settings and PC Settings conflicting with each other. Control panel used to be where you could find everything to change what you needed. Now one is not sure if the setting there is overridden by PC Settings and vis a vis.

    Displays, SCALE ALREADY. Windows epic fail and OSX picks up the pieces.

    Microsoft is losing its software, and playing with hardware is the LAST thing it needs to be working on right now.