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Tesla: Journalists Trespassed At Gigafactory, Assaulted Employees (teslamotors.com)
An anonymous reader writes: Telsa Motors has published a blog post saying that a pair of journalists from the Reno Gazette Journal trespassed on the grounds of the company's new Gigafactory and attacked security workers with their vehicle when confronted. "As the Tesla employee attempted to record the license plate number on the rear bumper, the driver put it in reverse and accelerated into the Tesla employee, knocking him over, causing him to sustain a blow to the left hip, an approximate 2" bleeding laceration to his right forearm, a 3" bleeding laceration to his upper arm, and scrapes on both palms." Officials from the Sheriff's Department arrived shortly after this happened and arrested one of the trespassers for felony assault. The RGJ has a story about the altercation as well, confirming there was an altercation, but also noting, "The newspaper's vehicle was damaged in the altercation. A rock had been used to shatter the driver's-side window and the driver's-side seat belt had been cut in half."
I would have thought this place would have had security cameras everywhere. Elon, you need better security staff or did you outsource it?
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Your vehicle was damaged in the course of committing criminal trespass and vehicular assault? Count your blessings that you aren't being charged with attempted murder.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
They were Journalists from the Reno Gazette-Journal. This looks to me like neither side is telling the whole truth.
Even with HD cameras, making out a license plate at any distance can be difficult. Try it sometime. Put your phone up at an angle a security camera might be, and see how readable things are at a distance. To do a good job of reading license plates you either need something mounted specifically for that (at a gate or something) or you need really high rez cameras, like the still cameras used at red light cameras.
General security cameras aren't much use for license plates.
Your vehicle was damaged in the course of committing criminal trespass and vehicular assault? Count your blessings that you aren't being charged with attempted murder.
I dunno, depends on circumstance. If the employee broke the driver side window and tried to wrestle the driver out by cutting the seat belt, then a reasonable driver might fear for his life.
I'm going to wait a day or two and see if more facts come to light, before I make any judgements.
(Of course, *you* are welcome to make judgements any time.)
A Harley biker is riding by the zoo in Louisiana when he sees a little girl leaning into the lion's cage.
Suddenly, the lion grabs her by the cuff of her jacket and tries to pull her inside to slaughter her, under the eyes of her screaming parents.
The biker jumps off his Harley, runs to the cage and hits the lion square on the nose with a powerful punch.
Whimpering from the pain the lion jumps back letting go of the girl, and the biker brings her to her terrified parents, who thank him endlessly.
A reporter has watched the whole event. The reporter addressing the Harley rider says, 'Sir, this was the most gallant and brave thing I've seen a man do in my whole life.'
The Harley rider replies, 'Why, it was nothing, really, the lion was behind bars. I just saw this little kid in danger and acted as I felt right.'
The reporter says, 'Well, I'll make sure this won't go unnoticed. I'm a journalist, and tomorrow's paper will have this story on the front page.
So, what do you do for a living and what political affiliation do you have?'
The biker replies, 'I'm a U.S. Marine and a Republican.'
The journalist leaves.
The following morning the biker buys the paper to see news of his actions, and reads, on the front page:
U.S. MARINE ASSAULTS AFRICAN IMMIGRANT AND STEALS HIS LUNCH
A journalist is an Activist now? I would imagine he doesn't like ANY trespassers on his property, no company does, it has all sorts of liability issues combined with the potential mischief that they are up too. smashed window and cut seatbelt sounds like security dragging these people from the vehicle to detain them (well within their right to do so).
Seems a little severe for an infraction that cannot carry a jail sentence, to me.
Of course, if they tried to run down security, at that point, yes, they should have been shot.
Well, having read both articles, both sides are telling the same story; if neither are telling the whole truth, they're both hiding the same information and/or telling the same lies. What to make of that...
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
They are excavating a spaceship, not really building a factory ;-)
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Tried to see what kind of newspaper it was. Its cartoons all tend to be liberal. Anti gun, anti GOP mostly. But it is recycling editorials from USA Today. So all my mouse-click investigative journalism to unearth deep plot by Koch Brothers has come to a naught :-)
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
By the provided accounts, they were being detained by the security guards, which in many cases can legally do so if someone is caught on the property they're supposed to protect. Hostage-taking is when there's no legal reason to prevent someone from leaving in the first place.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
smashed window and cut seatbelt sounds like security dragging these people from the vehicle to detain them
Yes.
(well within their right to do so)
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooope.
6 Months in Nevada for regular trespass, NRS207.200
As we're still dealing with "reporters" around sandy hook I much prefer texas if you dont think they are kids shoot them.
No sir I dont like it.
On many construction sites there are "safety managers". Most of their job is walking around the site making sure everyone is following safety rules. The other part of their job is documenting safety violations. They are managers because they need the authority to tell any worker on site what they need to do to follow safety rules. What would you call someone like that if not "safety manager"?
I believe these were construction site workers, not security guards. Safety (including ensuring everyone on site has checked in, and is wearing safety equipment at all times) is a big deal on modern construction sites. Not waring a bright orange safety vest makes you stand out like a sore thumb, and somebody will confront you about it when the see you. The "security managers" were different people than the "safety managers" who stopped the tresspassers. If their job was "mange the safety of the construction site", the title probably makes sense.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Jail time or not, there's still little reason to kill someone over tresspassing, or even theft or vandalism of physical property. In any case, I find the lack of heavier security surprising. Even for a straight up company like Tesla, this is a factory pretty much deciding the near-future of clean energy, and, at the very least, of +1Billion USD of taxpayer money. It could even be Big Oil trying to undermine the place by acquiring intel ffs. Not being protected by armed personel (and I mean SMGs and above), along with them bigg ass signs stating "Tresspassers will be shot", is a clear lack of responsibility by itself. Such measures have worked for the military - I bet you can count with one hand the number of tresspasses on continental US military bases (excluding of course: kids, drones, acts of war and the obvious crazy person that is clinically diagnosed with lack of common sense).
So in your world only the police should be able to do anything about crime?
They saw them committing a crime, it's reasonable for them to believe they committed/were committing a crime, they instructed them that they believe they had committed a crime and that the police had been summoned. It seems very reasonable that they detain them.
If somebody snatches some grandma's purse I have a moral obligation to stop that person if I can reasonably do so. If the law fails to allow for that it is broken and needs to be repaired.
No sir I dont like it.
There's no reason to kill them. There is plenty of reason to stop them. Stopping someone from committing a crime, and punishing someone for committing a crime, are *completely* separate concepts.
Don't want to get stopped from doing the wrong thing in a potentially deadly fashion, don't do the wrong thing. Seems simple enough.
As I understand it (having never experienced it) that's the justification for the detention of shoplifters by those that are not deputized law enforcement. I expect it falls into the realm of what legally constitutes a citizen's arrest.
If the journalists were caught trespassing, being journalists does not give them any kind of extra protected class against such a charge. If it's true that the guards were only attempting to prevent their departure after informing them that police had been summoned, they probably would have been 'trespassed' off the property by law enforcement and warned that a future incident would result in arrest, unless they'd already been trespassed off the property by police previously, in which case they would certainly be justifiably subject to arrest.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
If neither side is telling the truth then the one thing that can probably be verified is the actual location of the incident.
If the incident with the vehicle occurred on private property, then they were trespassing, and those entrusted with the defense of the private property have at least something of a degree of latitude in protecting that property.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Dead people are generally pretty peaceful.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
Around here at least, the use of terms like manager, superintendent, and foreman are more meaningful in the trades and in construction in general than they are in other arenas. Either the person is an actual manager that oversees people and doesn't do labor, or the person manages a specific aspect of a job and is basically empowered to stick his nose in everyones' business on that aspect, even if he's hourly, and he's not doing a general-purpose labor job.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I think that's actually only true in a small handful of the US states. In most of them you still have to prove you were acting in self-defense, and in some of them you further have to prove that your action was proportionate to the level of actual danger.
But if you are planning to run away with police hot on your tail, it is better to be on a fully fueled Jeep. It sucks if you have to plan your escape hopping super charger to super charger station.
Elon Musk is not going to taking it lying down. Next soft update will allow you to easily access "being chased by police, plot best route using super charger" mode. Time is the essence in those situation, you don't want this buried three levels deep in menu. You want a hot one-click icon prominently in the opening screen.
You'll never out-last the police in a sustained chase, you need to out-accelerate and out-maneuver them before they have a chance to identify you and/or call in more chase vehicles or air support.
Ok, I guess its more than I thought, roughly half of them now, notably including Nevada: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs...
You're right, then the security guards would have shot the armed trespassers.
Although trespassing is one thing they could be charged with, an industrial espionage charge might work as well. It's a federal crime.
Bruce Perens.
That's why they say "rest in peace"
There's no reason to kill them. There is plenty of reason to stop them.
Enjoy jail, and maybe a lawsuit from the family. The law only permits you to use deadly force when defending yourself (or others) from imminent death or grievous bodily harm. Even then, you better have been unable to satisfy any applicable duty to retreat, have eyewitnesses on your side, and hope the cops who show up feel instinctively friendly to you.
Don't be this idiot.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
You don't shoot people for trespassing unless it's in your own house**. You don't need heavily armed guards. In fact, you don't want heavily armed guards because it is rather easy to make a fatal mistake. Bad juju, that.
But don't worry, I rather doubt Elon will hire you on for the security detail.
** And you live the following US states: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas,Tennessee or Washington.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
NOBODY should be permitted to assault another except under attack.
actually i disagree, i support EXISTING USA law that says you can shoot and kill without warning anyone that tries to enter your property (tresspass)
I would actually sue this security guards for every cent they own, because they did not kill criminal tresspassers on spot.
You think the guards own the Tesla factory? Do try and keep up.
And get a spelling checker while your at it.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
What would you call someone like that if not "safety manager"?
The jerk?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Regardless of whether they were trespassing or not (it certainly sounds as though they were), the journalists clearly assumed they were being detained illegally and were thus allowed to drive in the manner they did. However, the Tesla employees were clearly up to the chase, to the point of being willing to literally block the journalists' vehicle with their fucking bodies (WTF?!) and then there's the automobile vs ATV vehicle warfare... As to whether the damaged window happened during or at the conclusion of the chase is debateable; the seatbelt is clearly not.
They all come across like a bunch of fucking assholes.
"Trespassing is trespassing."
In the words of Sergeant Hulka: "Lighten up, Francis."
Not taking sides until more info comes in. But interesting is the blog's use of the word "safety manager" for the guys who temporarily detained the journalists. So know everybody's a manager: sanitation manager (janitor), information manager (reporter), image acquisition manager (photographer) ...
Title inflation. It's often easier to give someone a more impressive title and pay them less than the title warrants had they really been doing work to justify the title. That's not to say the security managers weren't managers, but I've been at enough companies that had VP's, managers, and engineers where the jobs they do aren't really what the title implies.; and have had managers (real ones) say they give employees title promotions because it is cheaper than a real promotion.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Having read Tesla's, the RLG, and the LVS's accounts (which basically was the sam as the other 2), it seems to me the situation escalated to the point it got out of hand. If the guard was writing down the plate I would find it hard to justify hitting the guard with the Jeep.Given the photographer was told the sheriff was on the way it seems to me the reasonable thing to do was to wait and let the sheriff sort out what happened. I doubt the sheriff's response time would be anything but quick given Tesla's clout.
What I don't understand is why the photographer felt it necessary to climb a fence to get a picture. I've shot photos through a fence and wonder what required getting closer? A 200mm tele give you good reach even at a distance. More to the point, most companies will give journalists tours and access to a site, even though you'll get a PR dog and pony show in most cases. But, as a journalist, you need to develop sources if you think something bad is going on. Someone will generally be willing to talk, if off the record, without you needing to trespass and then try to get away. I've cold called companies to get information and it is surprising what people will tell you. You just need to start putting the pieces together, ask more questions, and build a story.
It will be interesting to see what happened as more details come out.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
"I'm going to either assume you're paranoid euros who are afraid of firearms or don't know how to properly aim."
*snerk* Wrong on both counts.
And, obviously you've never been trained in combat marksmanship. You always aim center of mass.
> NOBODY should be permitted to assault another except under attack.
There are two injured guards here, which neither party disputes. There are no allegations of injuries sustained by the reporters just yet (they allege that a window and a seat belt were harmed, though).
> The security guards were not likely to be being attacked by the journalists thus the only defensible position is in the journalists favour.
That is contradicted by the injuries sustained by the two guards. Neither party disputes the injuries and the police who have investigated this believed there was sufficient evidence to arrest the reporters for causing those injuries.
The guards may have also done something wrong, but we do not have undisputed evidence of this yet.
That depends on whether trespassing is a misdemeanor or an infraction. Which can be very, very fuzzy in some states. In California, you don't make a citizen's arrest on trespassing, which is a traffic ticket. Holding them against their will becomes unlawful imprisonment, a misdemeanor in its own right. Holding them and moving them elsewhere becomes kidnapping, a felony, which justifies the use of deadly force in self defense.
And Tesla's own account says their security guards tried to detain the trespassers, but not that they made a citizen's arrest. And even if they did, a citizen's arrest on a misdemeanor doesn't justify the use of deadly force, and breaking a window and using a knife to cut a seat belt off the driver becomes a felony assault in its own right, which does justify running them down to get away.
But we don't know who did what, or in what order it happened. And those are both very important factors. We can presume that the cops found the security guys' account more plausible, since they arrested the trespassers. But you have to keep in mind, the security guards work for a billionaire who is brining hundreds of millions of dollars and who knows how many jobs into the county, and the cops are going to be very inclined to arrest somebody just to separate the combatants, and the ones who were clearly trespassing are the easiest to drag off at the time.
And the press isn't capable of accurately reporting on any story that involves one of their darlings, which Elon Musk is. The only credible source of details is the trial transcripts. In the meantime, adjusting one tiny little detail changes it from a felony on one side to a felony on the other, or to nothing at all.
That depends on whether trespassing is a misdemeanor or an infraction. Which can be very, very fuzzy in some states. In California, you don't make a citizen's arrest on trespassing, which is a traffic ticket. Holding them against their will becomes unlawful imprisonment, a misdemeanor in its own right. Holding them and moving them elsewhere becomes kidnapping, a felony, which justifies the use of deadly force in self defense.
Depends on the state, situation, and location...
Here in Texas, even with our gun culture and self-defense viewpoint, you cannot detain someone (or shoot them or threaten to do so in any manor) if they are simply walking across your property. You can verbally inform them they are trespassing and you'll call the cops if they don't leave.
However, if they attempt to steal your property, if you see them pickup something like a generator off your land and try to leave with it, then you can shoot them.
I'm from Texas, I've been shooting and carrying guns all my life.
You are completely correct... deadly force is only to be used when defending yourself...
The irony is that in Texas, you're allowed to use deadly force to protect your property as well... however most people I've talked to have told me they won't shoot someone over "stuff".
I know I wouldn't... only to protect another person or myself...
Guns are not toys and you should never use one casually. That idiot you posted about... lord that it someone screaming for a Darwin award...
The main reason one should never flee a store when being detained for shoplifting is simple logistics for the accused.
Unless, of course, you won't get caught as a result.
It isn't the law in most places. The law is that you are likely will get life sentence if you shoot somebody just for trespassing. Just entering without invitation do not pose a danger to you.
Please, please tell me you deliberately mis-spelled "your" for ironic effect.
It's more than that. Dragging the driver out of the car is the equivalent of knocking the knife out of the assailant's hand. They were trying to prevent the driver from using the vehicle as a weapon for a fourth time.
>Insane to hit people
not that insane when people jump under your car
>were told police is coming
they could be told Santa was coming, wouldnt change anything. Some janitor 'manager' has no business detaining people
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
As I said, seems way off to shoot someone for trespassing. But making it look like you will shoot them with 5.56mm caliber, that's a whole 'nother story. Those can (actually should) be rubber point rather than FMJ if you're worried about "mistakes". Any security company will tell you 95% effectiveness comes from appearance of force, and the other 5% to actual application of force. If you're the type of guy who develops and names a "bioweapon defense mode" in a car, you're the type of guy who is aware of certain dangers of society, and worrying about public opinion on the security of something everyone knows will be heavily scrutinized by fossil fuel lobbying, seems to me much like worrying that the earth is round.
It's just going to be some big building with a car park, roads and other facilities around it. It hardly seems worth the bother of trespassing to take photos of that.
After the reporters hit the security guard, they locked the doors and refused to get out of their Jeep. The security guards then broke the window and cut the seat-belt to extract the attackers from their vehicle.
... or shoot them or threaten to do so in any manor ...
So I can 'shoot them or threaten to do so' as long as my abode is humble? Where's the dividing line between a mansion and a manor?
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Using lethal force while committing a misdemeanor is gonna raise that charge up to felony status right quick.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
I dont see anything about the security guards attempting to use lethal force. The reporters did.
My comment was about "reporters" the sort that hop fences and go running at 6-10 year olds playing in their backyards to interview them about a mass shooting they were involved with. Mind you this is after being told no they can't several times.
No sir I dont like it.
Ok, that was kinda funny... I'll give you a 5/10 for that one. :)
I just want to thank you for being a reasonable gun user.
Thanks. :)
I'm trying really hard to teach my kids non-violent conflict resolution. If there is anyway to avoid a fight, do so. Back down, walk away, talk it out, whatever.
I am trying to instill in them the concept that if we are to call ourselves civilized, then the violence against our fellow humans has got to stop. It is a really crappy way to solve problems.
Maybe we need to focus on teaching how to resolve conflicts and disagreements peaceful and respectfully in school, since it doesn't seem to be happening as much at home anymore. Provide kids the knowledge and skills to work out differences without resorting to hitting, kicking, etc.
Anyway, thanks. :)
You are an idiot. Even "non-lethal" weapons do kill people with enough regularity that they are always called "less-lethal" nowadays. Use of a weapon is always potentially deadly, most professional users of weapons (excepting most soldiers) are trained to only use them if absolutely necessary. Even a shot in a leg/arm can be lethal even with professional care right away - heck, one can die from a near miss or from shock.
Well a protected civilian object isn't a combat zone and even for military objects the guards aren't usually ordered to shoot to kill. I was trained to shoot to incapacitate if an attacker were enough threat to me/others to require force to stop but not enough a threat to stop permanently.
Clueless much? Citizen arrest - stopping someone from leaving a crime scene even with some amount of force is okay. I don't know of any country that doesn't have some kind of support for that, guess North Korea could be one though.
Self-defense cannot be used as your legal defense if it was done while committing a crime. The journalists don't have a leg to stand on.
Which has more power: the hammer, or the anvil?
You can't shoot to incapacitate. You can wind up incapacitating but not killing someone you shoot, but it's not going to be reliable. If you need to incapacitate but not kill, you use something less lethal like a Taser.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
>When there is close to zero chance of weapons involved, the big people break the heads of whomever they want. You may argue that "well it's not a death". Casualties are casualties.
You describe a world that is completely unlike the world I live in.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
...Just let the security guards get a free crack at knocking over the reporters with their jeeps and call it a day.
Who the heck trains to shoot to incapacitate? Unless by "incapacitate" they mean "it doesn't matter whether they're dead or not, as long as they aren't moving".
The military used to be trained to shoot to wound, because for every enemy soldier you wound, it usually takes two others out of combat to take care of him (if you're in a combat situation where the soldiers are actually trained to take care the wounded, and not a bunch of suicidal terrorists). But they don't really expect it to happen that way all the time.
Police are trained to shoot to kill. One of the reasons is that there's a good chance that, regardless of where you try to aim, they'll die anyway if you hit them. Using a firearm is always considered lethal force. Another good reason is that you may miss your target completely unless you aim for the center, which just happens to be where all those vital organs are.
I recall reading an article, many years ago, saying that a study of gunshot victims had found that most of them should not have died from the wounds sustained by the gunshot. There was some speculation that there may be something psychological about "Oh my god, I've been shot!", that negatively affects their ability to survive.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
Of course the exacerbating point here is that the journalists may have photographed something secret, or even have stolen something containing a secret.. That could be highly valuable or damaging to the company. In no way is it comparable to stealing say food from a supermarket. It is more comparable to espionage, it might even be classified as useful in potential terrorism. In the post 9/11 world doing something like this could even potentially get someone shot.
Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
Yeah, the jerk who does things so OSHA does not close the site causing everyone to lose their jobs.