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B-52s: The Plane That Refuses To Die

HughPickens.com writes: Dave Phillipps has an interesting article in the NY Times about B-52's and why the Air Force's largest bomber, now in its 60th year of active service and scheduled to fly until 2040, are not retiring anytime soon. "Many of our B-52 bombers are now older than the pilots who fly them," said Ronald Reagan in 1980. Today, there is a B-52 pilot whose father and grandfather flew the plane. Originally slated for retirement generations ago, the B.U.F.F. — a colorful acronym that the Air Force euphemistically paraphrases as Big Ugly Fat Fellow — continues to be deployed in conflict after conflict. It dropped the first hydrogen bomb in the Bikini Islands in 1956, and laser-guided bombs in Afghanistan in 2006. It has outlived its replacement. And its replacement's replacement. And its replacement's replacement's replacement. The unexpectedly long career is due in part to a rugged design that has allowed the B-52 to go nearly anywhere and drop nearly anything the Pentagon desires, including both atomic bombs and leaflets. But it is also due to the decidedly underwhelming jets put forth to take its place. The $283 million B-1B Lancer first rolled off the assembly line in 1988 with a state-of-the-art radar-jamming system that jammed its own radar. The $2 billion B-2 Spirit, introduced a decade later, had stealth technology so delicate that it could not go into the rain. "There have been a series of attempts to build a better intercontinental bomber, and they have consistently failed," says Owen Coté. "Turns out whenever we try to improve on the B-52, we run into problems, so we still have the B-52."

The usefulness of the large bomber — and bombers in general — has come under question in the modern era of insurgent wars and stateless armies. In the Persian Gulf war, Kosovo, Afghanistan and the Iraq war, the lumbering jets, well-established as a symbol of death and destruction, demoralized enemy ground troops by first dropping tons of leaflets with messages like "flee and live, or stay and die," then returning the next day with tons of explosives. In recent years, it has flown what the Air Force calls "assurance and deterrence" missions near North Korea and Russia. Two B-52 strategic bombers recently flew near artificial Chinese-built islands in the South China Sea and were contacted by Chinese ground controllers but continued their mission undeterred. "The B.U.F.F. is like the rook in a chess game," says Maj. Mark Burleys. "Just by how you position it on the board, it changes the posture of your adversary."

52 of 290 comments (clear)

  1. BUFF by queBurro · · Score: 5, Informative

    Shirley, that'd be Big Ugly Fat Fucker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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    sag
    1. Re:BUFF by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      Parent needs modded up. Now.

      ("...Fellow", my ass.)

      The only other valid nickname I can think it had was "Aluminum Overcast"

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  2. At some point by Schmorgluck · · Score: 2

    At some point they really need to send them all elsewhere. I suggest Planet Claire.

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    There's nothing like $HOME
    1. Re:At some point by captjc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or the Love Shack located smack-dab in your own Private Idaho. That is where I keep my Rock Lobster.

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      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  3. Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Works? by segedunum · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Having a plane that can be kept in the air as much as possible trumps technology every time.

  4. Where did it all go right? by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are a few examples of engineering projects where everything went right, or at least better than expected. The UK equivalent plane was the Vulcan bomber, which would have been a stealth bomber by accident: only the upright tail gives it away on radar. The AK-47 has it. The London Routemaster bus had it. The Soyuz lifter has it. The Panama canal has it too. Can you think of any others?

    More importantly, can we make everything work like that?

    1. Re:Where did it all go right? by shortscruffydave · · Score: 2

      Can you think of any others?

      Have to give a mention to the English Electric Lightning - one of the best planes ever produced by the British aviation industry. Very capable at the job it was designed for, and despite its age could still outpace most modern aircraft in a climb.

      The Chinook's a very able workhorse as well

    2. Re:Where did it all go right? by turkeydance · · Score: 2

      the underwire bra...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwire_bra

    3. Re:Where did it all go right? by stud9920 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are a few examples of engineering projects where everything went right, or at least better than expected. [...]. The Panama canal has it too. Can you think of any others?

      More importantly, can we make everything work like that?

      The Panama canal bankrupted thousands of French investors, killed thousands of workers, and ruined Gustave Eiffel's reputation for the rest of his life.

    4. Re:Where did it all go right? by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have an automotive example, so slashdot should love it: The Mercedes-Benz W126 body. Design finalized in 1978, they kept making cars based on it until 1992 worldwide, or 1994 in South Africa. It was Mercedes' first chassis made of 100% high strength steel. The car is literally 1,000 pounds lighter than its predecessor or successor, yet one of the most rigid chassis produced in the era. The handling is excellent even today, in fact it's far superior to most vehicles of any age. And they're nuts-simple to maintain.

      The Panama Canal, I'm sorry to say, is a very poor example. In spite of a retrofit which saves 1/3 of the fresh water they piss away into the ocean, they're still having trouble coming up with enough water to operate the canal... And about that retrofit, that took a damned long time.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Where did it all go right? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      The F-4, F-15, F-16, C-130, Nimitz class carrier, Saturn-V, Atlas, Titan, Delta, Bell Jetranger, Chinook, and the list goes on and on.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re:Where did it all go right? by MikeMo · · Score: 2

      The C-130 and it's variants (AC-130 and KC-130) are arguably the most versatile, long-lasting and best engineered platforms out there today. The A-10 would also be in the list of best-engineered airframes not the planet.

    7. Re:Where did it all go right? by invid · · Score: 2

      The A-10 Warthog. You can't take those things down.

      --
      The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
    8. Re:Where did it all go right? by Zobeid · · Score: 2

      off the top of my head. . .

      Douglas DC-3
      Dodge Power Wagon
      Mauser 98
      Colt M1911
      Browning M2HB
      Parker 51
      Lamy 2000
      Pentax K1000
      Unix
      LP records
      The Rolling Stones

    9. Re:Where did it all go right? by Sique · · Score: 2

      Ironically, you won't see any AK-47 around except at shows of historical weapons. The gun most people call the AK-47 is actually the AK-74. Yes, switched ciphers in the model number, pointing to a major overhaul of the concept in 1970, and the new gun together with a new type of ammunition, 5.45×39mm replacing the 7.62×39mm of the AK-47, got introduced to the Red Army in 1974, hence the name. On the other hand, even the AK-74 is also more than 40 years old now.

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      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:Where did it all go right? by nukenerd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the railway world :- years.

      1) The British High Speed Train (HST) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., mainstay of UK non-electrified Inter-City services for the last 40 years.

      2) London Underground "1938 Tube Stock". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Having spent decades as the workhorse of the extremely heavily used London Northern Line, six of them are still at work on the Isle of Wight line today. This is an ordinary work-a-day line, not a preserved heritage one, and ex-London tube stock was chosen to solve the problem of its close clearances. "1938" is when they were built, so over 75 years old and going strong.

    11. Re:Where did it all go right? by Zobeid · · Score: 2

      Not quite that simple. . .

      The original AK-47 was only produced for a few years because it was quite heavy and the milled receivers sometimes cracked. An improved version, the AKM with a stamped receiver, is what's been produced in vast quantities around the world. The great majority of AKs that you see are AKMs or some kind of variant of it. The AK-74 that you mentioned introduced the smaller caliber ammo (over Kalashnikov's objections, by the way!) and was intended to fully replace the AKM, but in practice it hasn't worked out that way. I'm not not aware of the AK-74 being widely adopted outside of Russia, and maybe some other former Soviet countries.

      The term AK-47, though, has become a generic term for the entire AK family of weapons, in much the same way that AR-15 has become the common term for the whole family of guns derived from it. It's not wrong to speak of it that way. You can usually tell from the context what is meant.

    12. Re:Where did it all go right? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      But it really sucked in range, sensors, and weapons. Great hot rod but really not a great interceptor.

      Not when it was built. But in typicla British fashion, the government decided for about 40 years continuously that there'd be something much better they could buy from America juuust around the corner and so never upgraded it.

      As for range... that's irrelevent if you can never catch up with your target in the first case. The Lightning was the only plane capable of catcing the Concorde in a stern chase (standing in for Blackjack of course).

      So it was an excellent interceptor, but would have sucked at almost anything else.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    13. Re:Where did it all go right? by argStyopa · · Score: 2

      The Mars Rovers certainly qualify.

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      -Styopa
    14. Re:Where did it all go right? by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 2

      You are talking about the first French attempt, where they shipped in people as they died from malaria. I was talking about the US one, where they cleared the banks of the canal and build mosquito-proof quarters and fever hospitals whoever they went. That one worked. At the time, there was enough forest to retain enough water. Now, the surrounding forests have been felled, and there is a lot more shipping, but that isn't the original designers' fault.

  5. If it ain't broke... by pr0t0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm sure things like avionics and perhaps engines have been updated over the years. So maybe the B-52's replacement should simply be a B-52 built out of more modern materials? Call it a B-53.

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    I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
    1. Re:If it ain't broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's not webified enough.

      It should be B-52.0

    2. Re:If it ain't broke... by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      The Air Force typically adds a letter to the next version. We're on the H model of the B52
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    3. Re:If it ain't broke... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Informative

      Simply updating the design with brand new materials is often as big a job as producing an all new design, as the current design is based around the strength, stiffness and capability of the material used - changing that material means revisiting every aspect of the design to ensure that the new materials characteristics handle all the stresses, loadings and movements without issue.

    4. Re:If it ain't broke... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are two reasons the USAF don't reengine the B-52 (and it has come up several times) - first is the fact that there is still a significant parts stockpile of engines already bought and paid for which are next to worthless on the open market, and secondly is the fact that by going from four engines on a wing to two, you have to drastically change the single engine out characteristics of the aircraft, which means a bigger tail to compensate etc.

      The USAF tankers and utility aircraft (E-3, RC-135s etc) have been reengined because they spend a lot more time in the air than the B-52s, and generally operate off of the standard USAF operational budget, whereas the B-52s typically operate under specialist budgets per conflict except for training flights.

    5. Re:If it ain't broke... by Talderas · · Score: 2

      In fact the only active model is the B-52H. All B-52Hs came into service between May 9, 1961 and Oct 26, 1962. Any active B-52 is at least 53 years old.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    6. Re:If it ain't broke... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      Haven't you heard? Minor versions are passé. That would make it a B-60.

      Or if we go at the same rate Google updates Chrome versions, it would currently be a B-412.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  6. Also, see the A-10 by Orgasmatron · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The A-10 isn't quite so old, having been introduced in 1977, but it too is uniquely successful at its job, with no practical replacement in sight.

    Ask any Army Soldier or Marine Rifleman that has seen combat and needed close air support what their favorite jet is, and you'll hear only one name.

    Rather than talking about retirement, we should be building more of these two jets. Yes, I know it would be expensive to re-create all of the tooling. In my opinion, new production lines for them should be established and maintained in perpetuity as national treasures, at least until suitable replacements are found and validated by real-world experience.

    (The C-130 should probably be included too, and would be much easier, since it is still in active production.)

    --
    See that "Preview" button?
    1. Re:Also, see the A-10 by pr0t0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed 100%. There does not seem to be a leap in technology that warrants a replacement of these aircraft. The machines are workhorses, and the only thing that really needs to happen with them is to maybe make them more efficient when possible (lighter, more fuel efficient, etc).

      For fighters, I think the F-16 and F-22 are well-regarded by their pilots; and the F-18 is beast on the Navy/Marine side.

      The JSF looks like an expensive complicated mess of an aircraft. I don't really follow aircraft news, but my impression is that they are throwing dump trucks of money at it to get it to perform at levels at our below our current arsenal.

      It would be nice if aircraft design and construction had a lot less to do with politics, job creation, and greasing palms; and a lot more to do with air superiority, capability, ease of maintenance, and cost.

      --
      I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
    2. Re:Also, see the A-10 by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For fighters, I think the F-16 and F-22 are well-regarded by their pilots; and the F-18 is beast on the Navy/Marine side.

      There's only one fighter plane thatll be my honey-bunny shnookielumps forever and ever, and that's the F-15 Strike Eagle, the greatest airborne weapons platform ever created. Be still mah heart!

      For everything else, there's the A-10, also known as the "make-them-shit-their-pants-in-fear" plane.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    3. Re:Also, see the A-10 by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      (The C-130 should probably be included too, and would be much easier, since it is still in active production.)

      Speaking of the C-130, if an AC-130 has a max T/O weight of 155,000 lbs and is as bad ass as it is, imagine what a gunship variant of a B-52, with a max T/O weight of 488,000 lbs, would be like. That thing would be a flying battleship. It probably can't get down to a slow enough cruising speed without stalling to be useful, but a plane packing 3 times the firepower of an AC-130 would have to be a beautiful sight.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    4. Re:Also, see the A-10 by inhuman_4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except the A-10 isn't successful at it's job, never has been.

      The A-10 was designed to strafe tanks during the Cold War, but never got used for that mission. They tried to use it to attack Republican Guard tanks during First Iraq War. But the A-10 proved too vulnerable to anti-air defences and the job was given to F-16s using laser guided bombs. The majority of ground attack missions in the Second Iraq War was conducted by F-16s and F-18s. The same is true for Afghanistan. The only reason the A-10 is still around is because congress won't let the USAF get rid of it. It's never been good at its job.

    5. Re:Also, see the A-10 by Major+Blud · · Score: 3, Informative

      "but never got used for that mission"

      I don't believe that's accurate. Straight from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      During the first Gulf War, the A-10 destroyed "more than 900 Iraqi tanks, 2,000 other military vehicles and 1,200 artillery pieces". Although 4 were shot down by missiles, it had "flew 8,100 sorties, and launched 90 percent of the AGM-65 Maverick missiles fired in the conflict.".

      Although the stats are pretty impressive, I hear mixed things from soldiers who had to rely on it for close air support. Some were displeased with it not having supersonic capabilities.....their argument was that it was better to have an F-16 or F-15E that could arrive at the battle much quicker. The other argument was that it was better to have a huge bomber, such as the B-52, that could loiter over a combat area for an extended period of time, and drop precision guided munitions as needed. The flip side is that the A-10 is much more durable than an attack helicopter, which is the Army's main method of providing close air support.

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    6. Re:Also, see the A-10 by bobbied · · Score: 2

      The A-10 isn't quite so old, having been introduced in 1977, but it too is uniquely successful at its job, with no practical replacement in sight.

      Then follows a rant about how the A-10 should be kept in service....

      I'm not going to debate the effectiveness of the A-10 at close air support, it was a great platform and served the guys on the ground well. We all morn it's loss. HOWEVER.... There are good reasons for the A-10's demise..

      Aircraft wear out. Airframes suffer from work hardening as they flex in flight and eventually they will start to fail. The more flexible the airframe, the quicker it wears out. The A-10 is a pretty flexible airframe and close air support requires a lot of varying loads on the airframe. You are pulling lots of G's to roll onto a target, then again to pull out of a strafing run. Carrying weapons on hard points makes it worse. Dropping gravity bombs, especially if you are lofting them (a hard pull up just before you release the weapon) puts a lot of stress on the airframe. Doing close air support well involves all of these things and more.

      The A-10 was literally worn out and we couldn't keep flying them safely. There where not enough airframes left with life left to keep the A-10 flying in sufficient numbers to be useful. Yes, we could build more airframes, but the manufacturing line has long since been shut down and the tooling gone so building new aircraft would be costly. So we literally used the A-10's up, wore them out, flew the wings off of them and didn't choose to build more.

      The reason why we didn't build more is largely political and partly practical. The military had planned the F35 as the close air support platform of the future. That's where the money went. You can argue the rightness or wrongness of that decision if you want, but if you look at the situation as it unfolded, with the planned replacement the F-35 behind schedule, sucking up *all* the spare change the pentagon could find in the couch cushions and the airframe of the A-10's in service totally warn out, it's not surprising they decided to ground it. They couldn't afford to buy new A-10's and the ones they had where no longer serviceable.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    7. Re:Also, see the A-10 by inhuman_4 · · Score: 2

      I think most pilots would prefer to not be shot at all.

      The problem with the A-10 is it's whole philosophy is low and slow. You can't build a flying tank. Sure can put some armour on aircraft, but it's a losing proposition. Armour is heavy, and heavy thing don't fly too well. It's also hard to upgrade the armour of a plane. Case in point is the A-10 which was designed to withstand the Soviets 23mm AA, to which the Soviets responded by upgrading their AA to 30mm.

      This is why every other plane flies high and fast. It's why everyone is investing in stealthier planes.

    8. Re:Also, see the A-10 by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 2

      C-130 stalls at 100 mph, the B52 at about 150. Not ideal for lingering over the battlefield. Plus lingering means "target", in the B52's case "very big, very expensive target". Plus its turning radius must be huge, combined with the higher speed you couldn't keep it targeted on a small piece of real estate. Just not the right tool for the job.

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  7. Scary looking things by fremsley471 · · Score: 2

    Only time I've felt terror from above was glancing up and seen five of these flying in close formation. It turns out their air base was having a long [runway] overhaul and they did a little tour of nearby cities as they departed. Had some evolutionary flashback to being some meerkat-like creature. Also appreciated why civilian jets are called 'wide-bodied'.

  8. Contested vs. uncontested sky by Spacelord · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The thing that makes the B-52 work is that it's a simple bombtruck that can carry an insane amount of ordnance. It's achilles heel though is that it is not survivable in contested skies. It's a big lumbering airplane and if your enemy has a somewhat capable air defense, the B-52 is going to get shot down. This rules out use against countries like Russia and China, or even Iran, at least in first wave strikes. Even relatively simple SA-2 SAMs managed to take out several B-52s in Vietnam.

    Its successors all tried to address the survivability issue. The B-1 did it by adding speed and low level flying to the equation, the B-2 by adding stealth.

    Luckily, most of the US' conflicts since the Vietnam war have been with adversaries that are not technologically advanced, so the B-52 is still highly useful.

    It has this in common with the A-10 by the way, very useful plane in the current context, but not usable against an adversary with an actual air defence system.

    1. Re:Contested vs. uncontested sky by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 2

      The A-10 is a CAS plane, and it was very much designed for use against "an adversary with an actual air defense system" aka the Soviet Union, who had the most extensive air defense system in the world at the time it was designed. There was no need to redesign or replace it, because it was never intended to penetrate that air defense network - it's a front line ground attack plane, not a deep strike bomber. It's certainly expected to take a lot of fire, whether from mobile AAA or from SAMs, but that's partly why it's so armored and survivable.

  9. It's true by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "...The $2 billion B-2 Spirit, introduced a decade later, had stealth technology so delicate that it could not go into the rain."

    I know someone who works with the B-2 Spirit bombers, and he confirms this. If it's more than a drizzle, they don't fly them (they won't even take them out of the hangar). Thank goodness our enemies would never attack us while it's raining.

    And don't even get me started on the F-35, also known as the "Little Plane That Can't". Can't fly, can't dogfight, can't turn, and can't land. Can't start the engine or takeoff if it's too hot or too cold, can't fly in the rain, can't shoot its gun twice in a row without jamming. As someone in the know once said, "It's like a $148 million garbage disposal for money." And that's the budget model, the Navy version (the F-35C) costs a staggering $337 million each.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    1. Re:It's true by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 2

      ""It's like a $148 million garbage disposal for money."

      That's not entirely accurate. It's more like a giant funnel for directing that money to the corporate profits of Lockheed-Martin.

  10. Peak Aeroplane by Catmeat · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The B-52 first flew in 1952,they only built them for 10 years, the youngest now flying dates from 1962. But this is a one-off. A combination of a robust design that's useful for a niche purpose, and the insane cost of a clean sheet, replacement. Note that the Vickers Valient, a similar British strategic nuclear bomber that dated from the same era, only lasted in service until the mid-60's as they were basically falling to pieces. That could easily have been the B-52, had it's designers made some bad decisions.

    It's interesting to compare this with the C-130 which first flew a little later, 1954, and is still being built. The time interval over which they have been building them is longer than the time interval between the Wright Brothers, and the first C-130 flight.

    This gives rise to the interesting thought that in certain niche areas (dropping insanely huge numbers of bombs, landing 10 tons of cargo on a remote dirt airstrip) we have reached "peak aeroplane" and did so decades ago. Essentially, spending a huge wodge of money on a clean sheet design to do those jobs will never result in benefits that justify the cost. Far better just to tweak the designs we have with a few incremental improvements.

    Civil aircraft don't seem to have reached peak as there are still improvements (in running cost) to be made, which justify new designs. "The average amount of energy consumed per mile, per passenger, fell by 74% on domestic flights in America between 1970 and 2010", according to The Economist. But presumably that will also eventually peak out in the future, eventually making brand-new civil designs pointless.

  11. A Pilots Joke by ausekilis · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was reading about the B-52 some time ago and came across this gem:

    "The B-52 has the power of 8 locomotives, 10 miles of wire, and enough metal to make 10,000 trash cans. That's exactly how it flies, like 8 locomotives pulling 10,000 trash cans with 10 miles of wire."

  12. Re:B-2 by BitZtream · · Score: 5, Informative

    No. Thats not the problem the post is referring to.

    The reference you're missing is that the rain actually damages the coating on impact when flying at speed.

    So the rain literally damages the stealth capabilities of the aircraft. Make a couple flights in the rain and you'll light up like a blinking christmas tree on radar even on a clear sunny day.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  13. Re: Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The summary is highly misleading. In fact, while the B-1 or B-2 may have been thought of as a possible replacement at one time, it was decided to only make a few of each and use their unique capabilities.

    The B-2 has come in very handy and can do things the B-52 cannot. It can't replace the B-52, but having a plane that is all but invisible in clear non-rainy skies is still a big advantage.

    Same wth the B-1. It's high-speed down-low flying makes it a good nuclear deterrent va the slow, lumbering B-52.

  14. Re:Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Works by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aside from the "because military contractors" excuse, I suspect that the very dumb, durable, reliability of the B-52 may actually contribute to a dysfunctional replacement-selection process:

    Since the B-52, while old enough that it could almost certainly be done better with newer engines, more lightweight composites, and whatnot, does what it does fairly well; which means that any bid of the form "Well, build basically the same aircraft; but with contemporary technology where applicable" will immediately be compared with proposals to just do more maintenance and some incremental system upgrades to the planes we already have.

    Any bids of the "zOMG, radical new bomber with sexy low-radar-signature geometry and stuff!" flavor, by contrast, aren't as vulnerable to "Or we could just upgrade the engines at markedly lower cost and within a much shorter and more reliable timeframe..." objections.

    In fairness to the "zOMG radical new bomber!" proposals, one of the reasons that the B-52 has remained in service so long is that it can be used to air-launch cruise missiles against targets that might actually have AA capabilities; and many of our wars largely involve pounding on hapless opponents who simply lack the means to shoot down anything other than low-flying helicopters, so its probably-dismal survivability against remotely competent air defenses hasn't been a serious issue. This probably also complicates the bidding for a replacement: If you decided to admit that "Yeah, this thing isn't supposed to go near actual air defenses, it's either a missile boat or for beating down soft targets", you could probably have the B-52++ sketched out relatively quickly. If you want similar payload; but in an aircraft that can actually survive hostile environments, it's much less clear exactly how you can do that. B-1s and B-2s are totally sci-fi; but I'd hate to imagine what building an aircraft like that on a scale large enough to match a B-52 would cost.

  15. Where old tech trumps new by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is one huge advantage of old technology over new one: Repairs. As any military mechanic will tell you, you're SOL with new technology and no spare parts. You NEED the correct spare for the job, you may be able to salvage one from another plane of exactly the same spec, but even that's not a given. You cannot simply "patch" it. The old joke about beer cans being used to fix leaking fuel lines was originally no joke. You could actually do that. Couldn't for the longest time now, but there were still a few things you could do without necessarily having exactly the right spare parts.

    Not with any modern jet, tank or other vehicle. And I'm not even talking about anything complex like avionics or electronics. Something as simple as a hole in the wrong section of the fuselage without you having the correct part to replace it grounds the plane.

    This is of course not a problem for an army with a logistic that overshadows its actual fighting staff. And bluntly, with the US military I often get the idea that the whole intent is to make it as un-repairable as possible to maximize profits for replacements. Well, you have to somehow, it's not like many of those planes are lost in a battle against an enemy that is essentially unable to put a dent into those birds. But that can be very relevant for an army that actually has to fight without more logistic staff than fighting staff. Being able to repair your weapons with minimal equipment is key to many armies on this planet.

    There's a reason Russian weapons technology is prized. Yes, it's ugly, yes, it's rather low tech, yes it's sometimes unreliable and less accurate under most circumstances. But it works in ANY terrain, ANY climate condition and most of all, can be kept operational with an absolute minimum of repair equipment and skill.

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    1. Re:Where old tech trumps new by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      The sloped armor was a mixed blessing. It made the armor more effective, but having it slope all around seriously reduced the interior space and fighting efficiency. From the Pz III on, German tanks were designed to make the crew as effective as possible. Later German tanks had better guns, and were generally better than Soviet tanks - and far less numerous. The T-34 was relatively easy to produce in numbers without a lot of highly skilled workers and fancy tools, and the T-34 with the 85mm gun had much better ergonomics than the original.

      An ME friend of mine looked over a tank museum once, making estimates of the tools and manpower it took to make things. The mantlet (turret plate they bolt the gun into) on Soviet tanks were cut with a cutting torch, very irregular, but doable with sketchy tools. US mantlets were cut with a bandsaw, which was the right way to do it if you weren't short on bandsaws. German mantlets were cut with a bandsaw, and then machined to a nice finish that added absolutely no fighting value but cost valuable machines and man-hours. If you look at the fenders (specifically, what goes over the wheels to cut down on splashing), Soviet were sheets of bent metal, easy to do, US were sheets of metal with a constant curve , also easy to do if you've got the tools, and the German had complicated double curves.

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  16. Doesn't die unless faced with air defense by dlenmn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The B-52 is great at bombing people back into the stone age, so long as the people were not that advanced to begin with (i.e. as long as the people can't really shoot back). This was evident even back in the Vietnam war.

    Want to bomb some insurgents in south Vietnam who don't have surface to air misses or fighter aircraft? No problem.

    Want to bomb north Vietnam, which has some fighters and reasonably good surface to air missiles? Danger!

    For example, look at operation Linebacker II, the American bombing campaign that "ended" the Vietnam War. The US used 207 B-52s, which flew 741 sorties during the operation. The North Vietnamize had 14 S-75 missile batteries distributed over their whole country. The S-75 design was about 15 years, so not super high tech even at the time. (The USSR had newer missilea, but they didn't give them to North Vietnam.) These 14 missile batteries shot down 15 B-52s. Granted, that's only a 2% loss rate per sortie, but imagine if North Vietnam had more than 14 missile batteries! Imagine that the missile batteries used modern technology rather than 1950s technology. The B52-s would be mincemeat even with more modern countermeasures. If the B-52 had a 2% loss rate in Iraq or Afghanistan, you would not be seeing the above headline.

    That's the fundamental issue with the B-52. It's not a threat to a modern and competent foe like China or even Russia. Iran just bought a bunch of modern surface to air missiles (with a ~250 mile range) from Russia, so who knows how B-52s would fare in Iran.

    Short version: The B-52 is great against people who wield AK-47s and drive around in Toyota pickup trucks. It's not clear how useful the B-52 is against a reasonably modern and competent military. I should add, rightly or wrongly, that is the logic for why the air force wants to ditch its A-10s, which fly at lower altitudes than the B-52 and are thus more vulnerable to man-portable surface to air missiles.

  17. Re: Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Work by stealth_finger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Gulf War clearly showed that stealth technology was clearly not needed.

    Not needed after they went in the first night and blew up all the radar stations and C&C you mean.

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  18. Re:Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Works by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I disagree with that sentiment. You don't just pop out new equipment on a short time frame to meet a current threat. You start a war with what you have and hope that you can hold your own until the projects that you started before the war can be finished.

    That idea may have worked out in the relatively lazy days of WWII, but even that is an aversion. Most of the best projects that were designed for WWII like your Tigers and your P-51 Mustangs were the result of programs that had started before the war, and in fullest anticipation of an upcoming major war with a known enemy. And they still took a couple of years to be produced, even with their programs working in overdrive on a Total War footing.

    That's not going to happen today. Even a major war in the present time is going to take a lot less time than you think. While it could bog down into insurgencies after the main battle, the clash of modern armies will be very brief. Iraq was run over twice, very quickly, and Iraq had a large, battle tested army in the first Gulf War to boot. While it was no Soviet Union, it did have some first line equipment for the time.

    Also, modern equipment takes longer to research and produce. What is really going to happen is that we manage to improve what we have already.

    However, if we only have B-52s to improve, then we're screwed because a B-52 isn't ever going to be able to do much more than it is doing now which is release lots of cruise missiles under cover of complete air superiority. There's no point in improving a B-52, it's doing about as well as it is going to do. The real advantage will come from wartime experience which improves platforms like the F-35 which are underwhelming, but have considerable room for improvement.

  19. Re:Because It's the Only Thing That Actually Works by eth1 · · Score: 2

    That idea may have worked out in the relatively lazy days of WWII, but even that is an aversion. Most of the best projects that were designed for WWII like your Tigers and your P-51 Mustangs were the result of programs that had started before the war, and in fullest anticipation of an upcoming major war with a known enemy. And they still took a couple of years to be produced, even with their programs working in overdrive on a Total War footing.

    Lazy?? They were popping out one B-24 EVERY HOUR AND A HALF at one point during WW II...

    And they were constantly popping out new variants of aircraft throughout the war, too, just as fast as they could figure out the improvements.