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Texas Plumber Sues Car Dealer After His Truck Ends Up In Videos of Syria's Front Lines (mashable.com)
New submitter hydrodog writes: A Texas plumber traded in his truck, which ended up in ISIS videos showing his logo and phone number. Now he is getting hundreds of harassing phone calls for 'supporting ISIS' and is suing the dealership for not taking off his information before selling it. He is seeking more than $1 million in damages. According to Mashable: "According to the complaint, filed last week, a salesman at the dealership, Edgar Vasquez, told Oberholtzer 'not to worry about the decal,' saying that peeling it off would 'blemish the vehicle paint.' 'At no time did Vasquez or any other agent, servant, or employee of the Defendant tell Plaintiff that Defendant would leave the decals on the truck, which would be transferred in some fashion to international jihadists conducting warfare upon innocents in Syria,' reads the complaint.
Applying Hillary Clinton logos and decals to my car and trading it in.
BRB.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/66d1d3ec-2f19-11e0-88ec-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3uLdcGolO
FTFA:
In a statement...Toyota added: “It is not our proudest piece of product placement. But it shows the Taliban are looking for the same qualities as any other truck buyer: quality and durability.”
That's a bold pivot to a positive message. Maybe the plumber can lean in and tell customers if he can put up with ISIS's shit, he can put up with theirs.
Dance like you're hurt, Love like you need money, and work when somebody's watching.
-Scott Adams
never retires.
A better question is how the hell this vehicle somehow ended up being shipped to the middle east where it could be sold to ISIS?
Not so much the unfortunate plumber, but good old American capitalism is equipping the bad guys.
After all, wouldn't you rather drive a Ford?
Because the dealership specifically stopped him when he started to do so, and promised to remove it themselves before they resold it?
That is very likely. Dealerships contract out people all the time to install pin striping and other specialty logos. Remember all those fancy graphics on Toyota trucks in the 80s? They didn't leave the factory like that, I worked in a dealership then. These guys know exactly how to remove the old sticks from other dealerships or company logos without leaving a film or scratch. The dealer just got lazy and wholesaled it out. It probably isn't illegal (although it probably was a lie), but it is very bad business.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
It was supposed to have been sold at auction and imported to Turkey.... then sold again across the border... but that doesn't seem quite right. Turkey gets cheap second hand cars from Europe, to Europe spec.
But it could simply be that someone is pumping us with propaganda and took the photo in Texas and didn't think to check the truck they bought.
That second option seems the most likely.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2632442/texas-plumbers-life-ruined-by-isis-after-selling-his-truck-takes-dealership-to-court-video/
The complicated and implausible explanation of how his trucks goes from Texas to Syria could have been added later when the problem was spotted.
How come *you* didn't RTFA before posting?
'Cause they explain that part.
Did the summary change since you posted your question?
The obvious answer to the phone calls: "Why are you watching ISIS videos? Are you a fan? Glad you noticed my business, though. Call any time."
Blame ever stricter diesel emissions standards and all the extra crap required to meet those standards.
Why do you think old-model diesel Toyota LandCruisers are so popular out in the Aussie Bush? They have engines that can generally be fixed by any bush mechanic with a set of hand tools.
These days you need sophisticated computer gear just to find out what's wrong.
The Confederate battle flag was a dead giveaway.
Best way to remove a decal from a vehicle is to use a hair dryer. It heats up the glue enough to loosen it, then once removed, apply/remove a coat of wax to get rid of any residue left.
Because Land Rovers cost a LOT more. For those that don't know better I don't mean a Range Rover, I mean something simple and solid like a Defender.
How is this frivolous? The salesman said that they would remove the logo because the former owner would damage the paint doing it himself and failed to do so.
My first thought was that he should have worried about the logo before selling it. Evidently, he did worry about it and was supposed to be taken care of by the dealership as part of the sale (trade in is a sale in its own right but was conditioned on the purchase of a different vehicle linking both )
Or at least that is the plumber's side of the story.
The defendant, however, says he mentioned it 2 or 3 times.
Who is damaged if an asset tag or logo is found on a device a decade later?
Who benefits from resale of used product a decade earlier?
Who should bear the liability? Who got the profit, of the logo in original use, of the device at auction?
"Kids, put your name on it, but remember to take your name off when you resell it." Putting that liability on the auctioneer raises insurance costs we all bear.
Gently reply
In his defense, the explanation is not in the title of the submission.
So is the US Treasury. They are actively investigating why ISIS has so many Toyota's. There are so many of them, this is a quote from the article: “Regrettably, the Toyota Land Cruiser and Hilux have effectively become almost part of the ISIS brand,” said Mark Wallace, a former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.
Whenever I see another one of those Daesh videos, I have always wondered where that rogue Toyota dealership is so we can wipe it out. Who know that it was in Texas?
Dealers tend to have full disclosure of transactions. Normally there's a document called a "Due Bill" or a "We Owe" that specifically states that there are no promises or additions made or included that are not written on said document. The same document usually includes language stating no oral additions or deletions will be honored. At the point the seller transferred ownership of the purchase vehicle and the buyer transferred ownership of the trade, the transaction was complete.
Had the customer wanted to sell his trade without the markings, he should have removed them (before transferring) or had the removal listed on the due bill.
It is not reasonable to assume that the dealer would have any idea the trade would end up with an organization US traders are precluded trade with.
Regardless of how reprehensible of a situation the customer now faces, I doubt the dealer will be held liable. It's quite possible that the wholesaler that made the ultimate sale to the current owner is, or the person that transferred it to that seller is, but I would think liability issues would be the least of their concerns.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
When your HDD fails under warranty, most manufacturers just have you send it in and they send you a refurbished drive. Then they go about fixing your drive, and will send that out as a refurbished drive to replace someone else's failed HDD.
I've always wondered - what about the data that was on your failed drive? Do they just do a quick format? A full format? Or do they do a secure erase on the drive (overwrite every sector with zeros) before sending it back out? If the person who receives your old drive manages to recover your data from it, can you sue the HDD manufacturer? If you were selling the HDD, you'd secure erase it yourself before shipping it. But when the drive fails, that usually makes it impossible to do a secure erase on it.
If you have sensitive data on the drive, your only choices seem to be to send it in under warranty and hope the HDD manufacturer acts responsibly and secure erases it. Or to play it safe and destroy the drive, giving up the warranty. It seems like there should be some middle ground between those two extremes.
If you have a somewhat successful business where you can afford trucks and employees, you could easily rake in 1M or more in a year. If your business goes bust or you have to invest into a media campaign or change your phone numbers or even a major decline in customers due to someone else's major fuck-up (if not plain illegal actions, trading with those nations in the US is strictly forbidden), 1M is not too little to ask.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
ISIS is suing him back: his repairs failed and their pipes leak.
Table-ized A.I.
I think it's obvious where he'll be sending that million...
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
The amount being sued for doesn't make it frivolous. The amount is just ridiculously high on an otherwise non-frivolous lawsuit.
You can find examples of RORO shipments that go from US to ports in Turkey every week or two, so there are plenty of vehicles going there. These are much cheaper in bulk, when you're doing the shipment yourself or the shipment company instead of hiring a service intended to make money off people sending a small number of vehicles. $1400 is even an overestimate for that, as the site you used had a $1000 option to Turkey if you change the US port. And RORO tends to be much cheaper than container shipping of vehicles if there is a regular route.
I think it would be difficult to lose $1M in business over this. There is the set of people who have seen this video. There is the subset of those people who are motivated enough to connect that truck to a particular business. There is a further subset of people dumb enough to assume that this company necessarily supports Isis and/or is not able/willing to discover that the previous owner of this truck is not an Isis supporter. Then there are the set of people who are this company's current/future customers. What is the intersection of these 2 very small sets of people?
In 1997, Robert Fisk interviewed Osama bin Laden in the mountains of Afghanistan, as described in his book The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East. But first, he had to get there.
And let me guess: his name is Streisand
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
A shame I can't +1 funny that.
In small town USA? I think it was today here on /. there was an article about the entire town being up in arms against the cancer-causing, photosynthesis-stopping solar panels. The guy got not one call but thousands of calls and death threats from people. Never underestimate the stupid following sheepishly in the media frenzy a Fox News anchor can whip up.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Because Land Rovers cost a LOT more.
If only I had mod points: +1 Funny.
Unless you were being serious? ... yah, not so much.
British cars might be "simple and solid" but "reliable and easy to work on"
What are you trying to say? That the used car dealer was dishonest?
Wow. What is the world coming to.
It's not ridiculously high. The man and his business's reputation cannot be restored to its former state and other than suffering a monetary slam, the dealer can do nothing to help with that.
I imagine quite a few people will see that video, around the world. It's essentially free to call anywhere in the US now, from anywhere. He might have to change the numbers just because of the harassment.
Besides, this seems like a definite case where punitive damages are in order. The dealership screwed up massively, and should be punished for it.
He is asking $1 million because his business lost money and he received threats. The money he is asking for is not to replace the fucking truck, you moron. Do you know how the world is working or what? You ask a compensation for damages and here it is obvious the damages value is much more higher than the original value of the truck. The dealership failed to fullfill his part of the contract. Too bad for him.
Achille Talon
Hop!
How about the legitimate customers who were afraid to use his business because of what their neighbours might think? It takes a lot less than "Oh, is that the ISIS guy?" to kill a business in small town America. And what about the customers who tried to get through, but due to the hundreds of crank calls, couldn't get through and switched to another plumber, thereby losing current and future business?
Most small non-internet businesses are basically out of business without usable phones, and if this business is anything like my plumber, his number is stickered to every single piece of major work his company has done since 1984, and changing his number would undo all of that marketing effort. I'm certain I'm not the only one that calls the company that did the installation when I need service, at least if I'm happy with the original work -- Even if it's not a warranty issue, I know they deal with all of the brands of equipment installed, and they aren't going to claim the original installation was defective and charge me an arm and a leg fixing made-up issues with the original installation either.
$1M isn't much actual damages for current and future business, and some punitive damages would seem to be in order if the dealership failed to remove the logo as contracted, if that was part of the arrangement (which, admittedly, will likely be difficult to prove)
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
Alice wants something done and pays Bob to do it. Bob subcontract to Carol, who subcontracts to David. David doesn't do it or botches it. Alice is upset and sues Bob. Bob says "It isn't my fault, sue Carol instead". What happens?
What looks to me to be the sensible solution is that Bob petitions the court to have Carol added to the suit, but Bob can't be removed from the suit unless Alice agrees. Carol then has David added to the suit. Assuming that Alice wins, David is liable, but if he cannot or will not pay, Carol has to pick up the tab, and failing that Bob. Alice gets paid so long as Bob, Carol and David collectively can come up with the awarded penalty.
Does the law actually work like this? Alternatively, Alice sues Bob who has to pay. Then in a separate suit, Bob sues Carol for Bob's penalty plus legal costs. Then Carol sues David, by which time a decade has passed and legal costs have dwarfed Alice's original damage.
(In the case in hand, Alice is the plumber, the "something done" was removing the decals, Bob is the dealer Alice dealt with. The rest of the chain only occurs in this case if the exporter who the dealer sold to had some obligation to the dealer to remove the decals - probably not the case here.)
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
That reminds me of the guy in California named "Al Nino" who used to get hateful calls every time the weather forecasters started talking about how "El Nino" might ruin crops this year or whatever. Seriously, people would call him and curse him out for "fucking up the weather".
And also, there was that poor bastard named "Al Cayda", who's received a similar boatload of shit for the last decade or so.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
innocents in Syria
We've already been told by all the people running for the GOP nomination to run for POTUS that there are no innocents in Syria, and roughly 30 US governors (including many who are not running for president) have said the same. Clearly, they must be right and samzenpus just did a shitty job of editing that last line.
You fail, "failure machine" samzenpus.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I didn't say "reliable". Also Land Rovers are very simple compared to the British cars that have the reputation of being hard to work on. Many owners typically do work on them themselves.
I don't worry so much about the decals, but it's bordering on irresponsible by the dealer to not remove the plumber's machine gun before reselling the truck.
LMAO Non paywalled link: Wade Hoyt, Toyota's spokesman in New York, who put the best corporate spin on the situation this week. "It is not our proudest product placement," he said. "But it shows that the Taliban are looking for the same qualities as any truck buyer: durability and reliability." http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11... http://www.bloombergview.com/a... Top Gear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
You can keep the Land Rovers.
The problem with European makes is that they assume that one is going to have a garage with the exact tools needed to do upkeep, the exact spec lubricants, and that everyone who works on the vehicle has been to the factory to take training and certification courses. The concept of a "shade-tree mechanic" is not in their playbook.
But in the real world, that can't be done often. In general, American and Japanese cars are engineered to be more forgiving if the right tool isn't in place. For example, on an old US brand pickup, the headlight assembly dim and faded. $50 later, I had a pair of OEM spec assemblies, and it took lifting a single lever and tugging on a cable to replace both of them. If I wanted to do that with the nearby German car, it would have cost thousands and required a shop visit.
Even a battery change. Chevy? Yank cables, pull out old battery, put new one in, put cables on, it starts. One European make, I found out the hard way that if the battery ever gets disconnected, the vehicle will not start and has to be towed to the shop for the battery to be "registered" with the vehicle's computer.
Nothing wrong with European vehicles. You buy a Mercedes, you pay Mercedes prices for parts and labor. However, European vehicles have no tolerance for oddball stuff. For example, one European make will void the warranty if more than 5% biodiesel is run. However, here in the US, it can go up to B20 without any notifications, with B10-B12 being the norm. So, pretty much, every make of that diesel vehicle has no engine warranty. Domestic brands can swallow B20, no issue.
"I don't see how it is a so good question"
Look, we have a crap truck, its in Texas sold at auction, so far so believable.
It next appears in a photograph, on twitter from Caleb Weiss of "The Long War" journal, which says it featured in an ISIS video.
So I then want to verify the data in the story for plausibility and thus verify that its not just propaganda. ala 'weapons of mass destruction'.
Whenever I see bad guys dressed in black, or props (like a truck) that shouldn't be there, I always want to check it, and I expect to always be able to show a reasonable line of evidence. It's clear to me you don't understand shipping. Really this story isn't right and the shipping is just the tip of the problems.
I then search on "Foundation for the Defense of Democracies" the company behind "The Long War" on Sourcewatch and there's an issue with this group:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Talk:Foundation_for_the_Defense_of_Democracies
"The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies (FDD) is a neoconservative think tank aand lobbying organization that claims to conduct "research and education on international terrorism — the most serious security threat to the United States and other free, democratic nations. FDD produces independent analyses of global terrorist threats, as well as of the historical, cultural, philosophical and ideological factors that drive terrorism, and which threaten democracies and the individual freedoms guaranteed within democratic societies." Their work is closely linked with that of the National Endowment for Democracy.[1] FDD was created two days after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Ever since its creation, FDD has pushed for US wars against Iraq and Iran – Eli Clifton states that "In recent years, FDD has become one of the the premiere DC organizations promoting more aggressive actions against Iran."[2] Clifton adds:
"While FDD has a 10-year history of engaging in alarmist rhetoric and fear mongering — e.g. in 2002 FDD aired a series of ads conflating Osama bin Laden, Yasser Arafat and Saddam Hussein — and helped promote the “Bush doctrine” which led to the invasion of Iraq, its donors have, for the most part, hidden behind their anonymous contributions to the organization. The new documents should permit for greater scrutiny of the interests and individuals behind FDD’s hawkish presence in the Washington think tank world."[3]"
-----
Someone seems to want that page buried, its been challenged on weak specious grounds, but if anything that just makes me more suspicous of that source of information.
LOL - I suggest you set eyes on a Land Rover in the real world, you'll never compare it to a Mercedes after that.
The long story is that it's a British upgrade of a wartime Jeep and it hasn't changed a lot since.
You do realize that the same procedure and costs apply to new cars as well? I have moved my car from US to Finland and the process sounds similar, most of the paperwork was managed by the company I hired to do the move. Over all I saved $10000 when I did the transfer. Car value in US drops much faster than in developing countries as well, it's because in US people can afford letting go of used cars and get new instead. Taxes on cheap cars are less than taxes on new cars because the tax is percentage of the value.
That's for individuals relocating to Turkey and wanting to bring their vehicles along with them. "One car per family" isn't applicable to importers/dealers.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
His life and his family's lives, and his business have all been put at risk. Tell us why you think the amount is frivolous? Oh, you meant frivolously low.
Just another day in Paradise
Contractors frequently have deals to do work with other businesses. Imagine he has a contract to take care of the plumbing for some local hotels. Hotel management gets wind of the story, and even though they know he's innocent, but in light of the negative publicity, don't want anything that could tarnish their own reputation, so they cancel his deal.
Yes, that's totally made up, but it's not difficult to imagine other scenarios.
Just another day in Paradise
So trace the calls and arrest all the violent, clueless bastards who were calling in threats.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
As I have said in this thread. I think it's a perfectly non-frivolous lawsuit. I just think the dollar amount is ridiculous.
And think about all the people who already did business with him. They were customers of a business that supported Isis. How will their reputation ever be restored? They should all get $1M as well.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
There are plenty of people whose lives are actually at risk. I think I'd rather my company's name show up randomly in one Isis video rather than spent one single day in Iraq or Syria. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve anything. I'm saying he doesn't deserve what it takes an average American to earn in half their lifetime. The family of a soldier that actually dies in combat only gets like half a million.
So yes, I think twice as much as what a dead serviceman's family gets is a little too much for maybe but probably not incurring some actual risk to your life.
No, because you can only blame yourself. Or al-Baghdadi, good luck in suing him.
I have a pretty good imagination. I can imagine the hotel that blacklists him getting negative publicity, and having their reputation tarnished to the point where they also need $1 million, and so on.
Not to mention not only do trucks get less stringent emissions standards in the USA by being listed as work vehicles but many of these have parts that are interchangeable for sometimes better than half a decade. F150,F350, Ranger, you can buy a half a dozen of 'em that are years apart and if one breaks down? Use it for parts for the others.
So it makes sense they are buying trucks from the southern USA, they are plentiful, probably cheaper than anyplace else (in my area you can get damned nice running trucks for $3k-$5k all day long) and if they stick with one or two makes they can keep 'em on the road by using a couple for parts.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
This is America, surely I could sue the makers of the shirt, or facebook. You just have to have a little creativity.
How is 1 million ridiculously high when his life is now in danger and he has to walk around armed?
His business reputation (even if he wins) is now in ruins. He will have to rename the company and start build clients again from scratch, PERHAPS a few of his steady clients will understand and move to the new business, but a lot will simply pick another plumber.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Soldier's death benefit is only $100k http://www.military.com/benefi...
But that's completely unrelated to this story. Soldier's volunteer...I did without any expectation that should I lose my life, my family would get more than enough to bury me ($20k back in my time).
There's plenty of precedent for paying more than $1M in cases similar this.
Just another day in Paradise
You're pitting the wrong parties against each other. Yes, the families of fallen servicemen get screwed. No, a million dollars is not crazy for this suit.
You have the damages from failure to perform, and you have the punitive damages from negligence. Penalties in these rare cases are high, in part, to prevent others from acting recklessly. Add in the fact that a lawsuit is, sadly, like a negotiation when you factor in the all-too-common out of court settlement, and you have a cool million. $1.1MM send more thought it, though...
A. I am not convinced his life is definitely in danger. It could be, but there are people who lives are actually definitely in danger on a daily basis.
B. The families of soldiers actually killed in combat only get about half a million dollars.
I understand that soldiers volunteer to have their lives be put in harms way, but I find it very hard to believe that $1M is a fair amount of money for what I consider to be a relatively small injury compared to the sacrifice of others have had to make for much less compensation.
His business reputation (even if he wins) is now in ruins. He will have to rename the company and start build clients again from scratch, PERHAPS a few of his steady clients will understand and move to the new business, but a lot will simply pick another plumber
Or everybody will simply forget this ever happened once the next round of stories hits cable news.
I am not saying I don;t think he is harmed at all. I am saying I don;t think this is going to cost him $1M in business nor mental anguish. $1M is what it takes an average American half their working life to earn.
If given the choice, between "working for 20 years" and "get a few death threats from dumb people too lazy to do any research" to earn the same amount of money, I think a lot of people would justifiably choose the 2nd. I would also like to point out that most people who get death threats are not killed or even almost killed. It's not like the kind of danger you might be in if you were actually captured by Isis.
It's not nothing, which is why I think he deserves to be compensated. I just can't convince my conscience that he deserves twice what a war widow gets.
There is a $400K life insurance policy that goes with that $100K.
There's plenty of precedent for paying more than $1M in cases similar this.
I'm not saying there isn't. We have a society very heavily steeped in litigation. I am speaking about what I think someone like this deserves compared to what his "damages" are and relative to the what other people are compensated for their "damages", and I subjectively feel like $1M is an utterly ridiculous amount of money.
I think people would be signing up to get death threats if they could get $1M. Which to me is an economic indication that such an award is too high.
And I am not even opposed to high amounts being awarded in lawsuits, especially when victims have large expenses like medical bills, and actual suffering they must endure.
I don't think I'd want to trade places with lots of people who win multimillion lawsuits for things like having the wrong leg amputated or something. I am not sure I'd want to trade places with this guy either, but I think a lot of people would, and I would definitely take him over lots of other people.
You're pitting the wrong parties against each other. Yes, the families of fallen servicemen get screwed. No, a million dollars is not crazy for this suit.
I don't think a million dollars is crazy in the sense that I think it is pretty likely he will get it. We live in a very litigious society.
And I do think it's important to have the tort system act as a deterrent to bad behavior. That said, I don't think $1M is a reasonable punishment for failing to scrape a logo off a truck. Having that truck end up in an Isis video is not really an outcome that a person could reasonably be expected to anticipate.
The other day I accidentally blocked someone's driveway. I inconvenienced that person. I had to pay a $60 fine. I'm ok with that. If my blocking this person's driveway caused their name to end up in an Isis video by some crazy set of circumstances, I don't think I should be fined $1M. I think a $60 fine is perfectly effective at preventing intentional driveway blockage.
I had an Isis (International Secret Intelligence Service) T-shirt that I bought before Isis (Islamic State in Iraq and Syria) existed. There are photos of me in this T-shirt all over social media. My reputation can never be restored to its former state.
Good thing that you didn't wear the Female Body Inspector T-shirt in those photos.
Lock the wife and the dog in the boot of the car.
Return one hour later.
Who's happy to see you?
Ah ! So in those hands does the "non lethal aid" to "moderates" in Syria ends up in to !
I don't remember their full username but there's someone here on /. who's using the name Isis.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
There is a $400K life insurance policy that goes with that $100K.
There's plenty of precedent for paying more than $1M in cases similar this.
I'm not saying there isn't. We have a society very heavily steeped in litigation. I am speaking about what I think someone like this deserves compared to what his "damages" are and relative to the what other people are compensated for their "damages", and I subjectively feel like $1M is an utterly ridiculous amount of money.
I think that depends on where most of that money goes--for example, how much will it actually cost for a family that has a small business to sufficiently change their identities? It'll include a lot of legal paperwork, and if renaming and relocating is insufficient to cut the connection, the business itself would have to be liquidated and then rebuilt. In some cases, it may not be possible for it to just sell its assets to its successor in order to make the switch.
It may also be that the costs expected are under $1M, but the amount was chosen to deter future such hijinks by dealerships--in which case I tend to favor those who admit it up-front and openly plan to donate the difference to charity.
Now that he's made the papers and news, he'll get more attention as a side-effect and get companies due to the sympathy dollar. He shouldn't change his business name at all or at least make sure the old number is forwarded to his new number. He's accomplished the goal given to him by his lawyer and, likely, crisis management/PR advisor he's hired for just this occasion. Those two are the first two calls you should make when something like this happens and both are available at fairly low prices with the latter working on contingency.
He's not going to win this amount of money. He's not going to collect much of what he does win in a timely fashion. His lawyer's going to take a good portion of this money. The winnings, because they're substituting income lost, will probably be considered taxable income. The suit's got not a damned thing to do with winning dollars. Even if he changes the business name, that too will get loads of publicity and the old number will probably stay working and listed. He's gonna be just fine and is doing the "right" thing.
If you get bad PR you call a lawyer and you call a PR or reputation manager to come advise you - even if you're not going to sue, you want a lawyer. You want a PR advisor because they'll help you get out from under this or, in many cases, spin it to a positive. In this case, it's very clever spinning but rather run of the mill. I've never had to deal with it personally but I have some peers who have - you see it sometimes in local restaurants and things of that nature. It's usually a bit more low-key than this but reputations are much easier to repair than people on Slashdot seem to think.
An example might be that I try to avoid all Sony products knowingly. I have since the rootkit days. Yeah... That's doing me a lot of good. Boy, that really harmed that company. Six months later, people saw a Sony product and didn't even think about why they'd heard the name before. They just remembered that Sony was something that someone was talking about so it must be good. We're humans. We're not reason machines but we're pretty good at reasoning. This company has far more advertisement and far more effective advertisement than he could ever hope to pay for. He's either a genius or has paid for a professional. There's a slim chance that he's gotten shit lucky but I'm almost certain that this smells like a professional reputation manager's work.
It's truly brilliant work on their behalf and a good indication of why you should hire one if you're having issues. Some of them are quite good. A restaurateur friend of mine, to go back to the beginning(ish), had a power outage and the generators did not kick in. This went partially unnoticed and the walk-in thingy (not quite a walk-in with a door but has plastic flap thingies, got warmer than it should have. He ended up shutting down because they found maggots in the food - none were served as far as anyone knows. Anyhow, the press had a field day and it was a few days cleaning and getting things squared away. But, he stayed closed just a wee bit longer than he needed to... Why? Well...
He hired a professional, as advised by his lawyer, and they changed the seating arrangement while giving out $5 coupons to the first 50 people to visit the following Friday night. The place was packed, the average entree was like $15 at the time, and was a hit not long after that. The coupon AND the obvious change (the seating) was enough for the customers to assume something was different and changed. Reality was, just the generator had been fixed, cleaned the freezer and bleached it out, and gave his staff a couple of extra days to get a few other jobs done while the place was empty. It worked wonders and, really, the only thing he did was clean up the mess and get the generator fixed.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
These law suits are not really so frivolous, because customer protection is generally low.
US = good service, lousy consumer protection laws, ridiculously high damage compensation
Europe = bad service, excellent consumer protection laws, ridiculously low damage compensation
Or at least, that's how I always understood it.
I, the High Priest of the Temple of the Mother, will sue your blasphemous ass for sullying the name of our beloved Goddess Isis!
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Google his company, "mark-1 plumbing". Four images come up showing his company truck with a mounted gun. The first search result is a yelp review, the second his facebook page, and every other result after that is news articles about his truck being used by ISIS. I would say the set of people affected by this is any person who would use the internet to look up a company prior to hiring them and didn't care enough to research the full story because they are trying to deal with a plumbing problem.
I don't follow how it would make financial sense to take truck from TX and ship it to the middle east.
likely this truck has very high miles on it. It had been used as a plumbing truck and most of them get used to the point where they don't have a lot of usable life left in them. The sale price of it, probably is less or close to the the cost of shipping it overseas..
I would think for what would be spent in purchasing and shipping, a much better local truck could be acquired.
to me... something sounds a bit off with this...
The difference is you didn't tell that person you would move your car, and then not follow through.
For example, say the owner of the driveway came out and said, hey my wife is expecting, we need you to move your car please in case her water breaks and we need to leave at a moments notice. You then say OK sure, but NEVER move your car. A day goes by, and you get a ticket. Another day goes by and you get another ticket. On the third day with your car there, her water breaks and because of your car in the driveway they have to drive around it and destroy their lawn. YOU would be liable for the damages that were caused to their lawn, and they have every right to sue you for those damages.
It sounds like he started to do it after he sold it to them, they are way better equipped to do that than he is (given that he is a plumber and doesn't work in a body shop).
The only promise worth anything is those on paper. At least you can use it to wipe your ass.
You're comparing an old Chevy to a modern European. You will have all of the same problems
Replacing anything on a '80s VW? Just as simple (if not easier, IMHO) than a Chevy. It helps that VW has used the same bell housing bolt pattern since the first water cooled engines.
A 80s Mercedes Benz diesel engine is the textbook definition of a shade-tree car. I could do 90% of the work on my 90s VWs with a 10 mm, 13 mm and 15 mm wrench
If I wanted to do that with the nearby German car, it would have cost thousands and required a shop visit.
Where are you getting this stuff? It would have required just as much of a shop visit that your newer Cadillac would require. If you are competent to work on your own vehicles no visit necessary.
American manufactures are just as on top of requiring special lubricants and 'certifications' in the latest 2015 models. And part of that is being driven by EPA requirements.
So, pretty much, every make of that diesel vehicle has no engine warranty.
Except it does. Until B20 was mandated in some states only B5 was covered. Now that B20 is mandated in some states B20 is covered under warranty.
"At no time did Vasquez or any other agent, servant, or employee of the Defendant tell Plaintiff that Defendant would leave the decals on the truck, which would be transferred in some fashion to international jihadists conducting warfare upon innocents in Syria," reads the complaint.
He has to prove that the dealership knew it was going to terrorists. I believe from what I remember, the dealership sold it at a local auction to an individual (not another company). From there the individual sold it to someone else. After that, it was shipped overseas. So the dealership could not have known it would be sold to jihadists unless they had some sort of omnipotence. The only thing the plaintiff might prove is that maybe there was a pattern that the dealership should have been aware although it is unlikely he can do that.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
How about the legitimate customers who were afraid to use his business because of what their neighbours might think? It takes a lot less than "Oh, is that the ISIS guy?" to kill a business in small town America. And what about the customers who tried to get through, but due to the hundreds of crank calls, couldn't get through and switched to another plumber, thereby losing current and future business?
Well speaking for myself: those people are idiots. The first thing I thought was it was a used truck: Common sense would say a Texas plumber is not likely a sponsor of ISIS and would proudly have them display his business on one of their trucks.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
My 12 year old step daughter's name is Issis. It has really turned into an unfortunate name.
If he wanted the logo removed he should have done it himself.
At the very least, if he was worried about damaging the paint then get a can of black spay paint (Krylon fusion) and paint over the decal (masking off the painted part of the truck around the decal so as not to mar the paintwork).
about an hour of work all said and done and then even if they don't remove the decal, you are fine and you haven't marred the paint by trying to remove the decal.
People just always want to blame other people. In this case, there is a reasonable course of action he could have taken which would have solved all the problems.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Except that it was an easily avoidable situation.
He was selling his car WITH HIS LOGO ATTACHED... how could he think something WOULDN'T go wrong? You don't know who is going to get that car or what it is going to be used for.
He should have taken the completely reasonable action of either removing the decal himself or defacing/redacting/painting over the decal without removing it.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
So we are going to give the Fatcat Corporate whore Car Dealership a free pass and rag on the poor plumber trying to feed his family and keep his employee's employed? The Plumber is getting 100's death threats, his poor receptionist is going to have PTSD from this ongoing harassment. I'll never figure out how you liberals think
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Exactly!
You jest, but everyone knows this.
How could he, a responsible business person, trust a car dealership to remove his logo?
He is obviously trying to "defend" his business now that it is under attack, but he was not too worried about defending his brand enough to be bothered with simply painting over the decal or removing it despite what the dealership said.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
He's suing because that car salesman lied to him by saying they would remove the decals and they didn't; his Son was starting to remove the decals himself and the salesman told him to stop. If your going to assume responsibility for doing something, then you should whine about being held responsible for it.
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I think you missed the part where this texan plumber's truck was featured in the Colbert Report, a segment which was rebroadcast primetime during the emmys, therefore making the subset of people who watched the video and and connected the truck to the business into the millions.
The article also mentions that Homeland Security and the FBI met with him and advised him to carry a gun due to the hundreds of daily calls and threats he was receiving. There is cause for him to be concerned with his safety here.
A. I am not convinced his life is definitely in danger.
You know the funny thing about assuming the death threats are not serious is you only have to be wrong once.
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there will always be some dumb Fox News viewers that will think I support Isis.
But of course, you limit yourself to Fox News viewers as if MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, or any other news program's viewers aren't just as dumb.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
He is talking about this smear job:
http://politics.slashdot.org/s...
I highly doubt the arguments that were made were fairly summed up in that summary, as I highly doubt that a whole town could be that ignorant.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
The difference is you didn't tell that person you would move your car, and then not follow through.
That is not really a relevant difference. There is an implicit promise of members of society not to park in front of people's driveways, and the fine is the punishment for breaking this promise.
For example, say the owner of the driveway came out and said, hey my wife is expecting, we need you to move your car please in case her water breaks and we need to leave at a moments notice. You then say OK sure, but NEVER move your car. A day goes by, and you get a ticket. Another day goes by and you get another ticket. On the third day with your car there, her water breaks and because of your car in the driveway they have to drive around it and destroy their lawn. YOU would be liable for the damages that were caused to their lawn, and they have every right to sue you for those damages.
I will pretend for the sake of argument that tow trucks don't exist, because I don't think it's that important. I will even assume for the sake of argument that you are liable for damage to the lawn. What if it takes 20 minutes to maneuver over their lawn around my car and the woman dies during childbirth? Am I guilty of manslaughter? premeditated murder? How far can you take this line of reasoning?
The same thing is true about assuming you will get to work without being in a fatal car accident. Life is full of risk.
Fuck his business reputation, its not actually tarnished.
That said....fuck the car dealership too. The real issue, to my mind is.... how much do you have to make a dealership pay so that they, and all the other dealers who might tell such lies think twice about which lies they tell next time?
1 million? Maybe that is enough, a good start for a warning.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
He thought he was selling the truck ASIS
Changing identities? I really don't think that's necessary. There are always going to be some dumb people who do dumb things. But honestly this is such a small blip on the radar of even crazy people. They will call and make death threats, and in a couple days they will move on to the new thing. There is no reason to enter the witness protection program and say good bye to your extended family because a few idiots sent you some death threats.
That's not to say that I think no death threats are credible. There is a difference between being targeted by religious extremists or a state intelligence agency or a criminal syndicate, and some random idiots who are only targeting you because they are belligerent and stupid.
The car salesman didn't necessarily lie (i.e. intend to deceive the plumber). It could just be that they intended to remove the decals and neglected to actually do it. But all that is irrelevant. What is for certain is that the car salesman did not intend for the plumber's company's name to show up in an Isis video, nor is that an eventuality that one could reasonably expect.
f your going to assume responsibility for doing something, then you should whine about being held responsible for it.
What if some idiot does kill this plumber and his whole family in a mass shooting. Should the car salesman be tried for murder, since his actions lead to the death of a whole family of people? No, because not pealing the logos off a truck after you promised to do it (while bad) is not something that would normally lead to a mass shooting.
It is also a Toyota truck. I surely will not be buying any more cars from an evil terrorist auto manufacturer that produces trucks to be used to kill American soldiers. Or maybe most people realize that Isis just ends up with a bunch of shit in a way the previous owners may not have intended.
"Some people are really fucking stupid"
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that."
-- George Carlin
You're right, but just the same, it's hurting his business -- Even if it's just the denial-of-service attack on his phones, it's hurting his business.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
You see it on MSNBC's commentary shows. Fox does it during their news shows. They were actually sued for this. It's not legal to pass commentary off as news. They successfully defended themselves by declaring they were not in fact a News Channel and were an entertainment network.
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Changing identities? I really don't think that's necessary. There are always going to be some dumb people who do dumb things. But honestly this is such a small blip on the radar of even crazy people. They will call and make death threats, and in a couple days they will move on to the new thing. There is no reason to enter the witness protection program and say good bye to your extended family because a few idiots sent you some death threats.
That's not to say that I think no death threats are credible. There is a difference between being targeted by religious extremists or a state intelligence agency or a criminal syndicate, and some random idiots who are only targeting you because they are belligerent and stupid.
Witness protection programs cover a lot more and you don't pay for them; they're for when you're very sure that your death threats include somebody with the resources to follow you through changing your name, address, and phone number. The latter--which is what I was talking about--is all that's necessary when it's most likely people harassing you for the lulz.
The reason that is necessary? It only takes one person with the ability to get shit somewhere to kill a person. Yes, most of the threats probably will be 'random idiots,' but the main way to tell 'random idiot' from 'murderous crazy' is somebody gets seriously hurt. This is precisely why the behavior you're talking about is against the law--the 'intent to cause fear and terror' requirement is almost certain to be met here.
I think most people can appreciate that not all things with the same name are related. I remember the band Anthrax considered changing their name after 9/11 when all the anthrax letters were being sent to congress and news stations. They ultimately decided to keep their name, and that decision was regarded as a stand against terrorism (although it later turned out to be just a guy that worked for the US government, and unrelated to the 9/11 attacks).
Issis is still a nice name, I think she should keep it so the terrorists don't win.
How do you know the car dealer is rich and the plumber is poor? Also, try to find where I said the car dealer should get a free pass. I think the dealer should be penalized. I just don't think $1M is a reasonable penalty for a simple fuckup that lead to a ridiculous not possible to anticipate scenario.
I'll never figure out how you liberals think
Get your generalizations straight. It's the conservatives who are always whining about tort reform. Well here's your chance.
I think you missed the part where this texan plumber's truck was featured in the Colbert Report [cc.com], a segment which was rebroadcast primetime during the emmys, therefore making the subset of people who watched the video and and connected the truck to the business into the millions.
I think you missed the the part where I specifically refer to the subset of people who are aware of this connection of the plumber to the Isis video and *don't* realize the plumber is not intentionally supporting Isis.
The article also mentions that Homeland Security and the FBI met with him and advised him to carry a gun due to the hundreds of daily calls and threats he was receiving. There is cause for him to be concerned with his safety here.
I agree there is a cause for concern for his safety. What I don't agree with is the rationale "There was cause for concern for your safety, therefore you get $1M".
Yes I limited myself to the dumb viewers of the cable news outlet that specializes in Islamophobia. I totally agree that people who watch other news outlets are dumb as well, but Fox News is the gold standard of stupidity. If stupid news viewers were baseball teams, Fox News viewers would be the Yankees.
CNN is pretty amazingly Islamaphobic as well, I can't say for the other stations though as I never watch them.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
The reason that is necessary? It only takes one person with the ability to get shit somewhere to kill a person. Yes, most of the threats probably will be 'random idiots,' but the main way to tell 'random idiot' from 'murderous crazy' is somebody gets seriously hurt. This is precisely why the behavior you're talking about is against the law [criminalde...lawyer.com]--the 'intent to cause fear and terror' requirement is almost certain to be met here.
That's the "better safe than sorry", Pascal's wager type mentality that I don't agree with. You will *never* be sure that someone isn't out to get you. The standard should not be "the probability that a murderous crazy person might try to kill you is greater than 0" because that is always true for everyone. I think it makes much more sense to just analyze the risk and determine a reasonable response.
I think a reasonable response would be to hire a security guard for a few weeks until this all blows over.
Certainly the people calling in death threats should be prosecuted harshly if they can be caught.
I just don't think we should be able to sum up all this stuff into a $1 million award to the plumber and a $1 million fine to the car dealer for a relatively small fuckup that got blown out of proportion by some pretty unlikely circumstances.
CNN is a joke. But I wouldn't say that Islamophobia is part of their propaganda machine. It's just something they do out of desperation for ratings. With Fox News, spreading fear in general and of Islam in particular is like part of their implicit mission statement.
And don't get me wrong. I am under no illusions that Islam is a misunderstood religion of peace. I think all religions suck. I just don't feel like singling out Islam and peaceful muslims as *the* boogyman is intellectually honest or helpful.
Not true at all. See: "Historic" tag.
Another facet this is that I don't think a person should be held responsible for the death threats that others make, regardless of the ability of law enforcement to actually catch those making the death threats.
If I call Donald Trump an asshole, and someone who hears me decides to send Donald Trump a death threat because of what I said, I shouldn't be held liable for that.
Given that those people aren't actually harmed... Quit trolling?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
Given that those people aren't actually harmed...
Obviously...
Quit trolling?
It's not trolling. It's sarcasm. Or if you want a more formal definition, it's a "reductio ad absurdum".
It's not ridiculously high. The man and his business's reputation cannot be restored to its former state and other than suffering a monetary slam, the dealer can do nothing to help with that.
Realistically he should have removed the logo himself (or saw too it that someone else did it) before selling the car.
This would be laughed out of an Australian court because it was the business owners responsibility to remove the logo and all used car sales are "as is" so conditions cant be imposed after the sale.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
The car dealership in this story is being held responsible because there was a contract (verbal or paper, it doesn't matter) that stated they would take care of the decals, and they did not do that. Because they didn't do it, it caused this man's business irreparable harm, which was the reasoning behind him asking them to remove the decals in the first place. It doesn't matter if it is ISIS, or if it was a teenager getting in a massive accident with the decals still there, it was foreseeable that selling the car on with a business's decals could cause harm to the business. In this case, it also involves death threats due to the ISIS angle, but I am not sure that even figures into the $1 Million figure, as that could easily just be damage to the business's reputation. I didn't see anywhere that the size of the plumbing company was indicated, it could easily be a 10 man (or larger) operation, in which case, it would be entirely possible to cause a million worth of damages to the company.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
The car dealership in this story is being held responsible because there was a contract (verbal or paper, it doesn't matter) that stated they would take care of the decals, and they did not do that.
Ok so lets assume there was a contract. Does this contract define what the consequences are for breach of the contract? Does it specify what is to occur if the decals show up in an Isis video?
Normally when you want to invoke breach of contract (which clearly occurred in this case), you simply arrive at the terms of what the contract prescribes in the event of a breach. Does the contract define a $1M award in the event of a breach, or unlimited compensation for any potential damages?
How much money do you think the car dealer should have to pay if due to decals not being removed, a teenager almost got in a potentially fatal car accident (e.g. life was put at risk but without any actual harm)?
So what you're saying is... stronger emission quality regulations are fighting terrorism. Got it.
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