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Bloomberg Predicts EVs Cheaper than IC Engine Cars Within 10 Years (computerworld.com)
Lucas123 writes: With the price of lithium-ion batteries continuing to plummet, already dropping 65% since 2010, electric vehicles will become cheaper to own by the mid-2020s, according to a new report by Bloomberg New Energy Finance. The report also forecasts that sales of EVs will hit 41 million by 2040, up from 462,000 in 2015. By 2040, EVs will make up 35% of new light-duty vehicle sales, even if the price of crude oil goes back up from $33 today to $70 in the future. The adoption of EVs will displace about 13 million barrels of oil per day by 2040, when the clean-energy cars represent about one-quarter of cars on the road.
EV batteries last a couple of thousand cycles at the most. Which might be 5 or 10 years worth of driving. After that they are recycled into stainless steel pans and other items that aren't batteries. It seems that Lithium ion batteries are harder to recycle back into batteries than for example lead acid or nickel iron (both impractical for powering cars).
So instead of eating into the world's supply of hydrocarbons we're eating into the world's supply of Lithium and a couple of other elements that there isn't all that much of once you start producing 10s of millions of cars. Great progress.
Of course there are ways of getting these metals in plentiful supply from seawater, asteroids and other sources but as with super-efficient solar panels, they're always 10 years away.
The problem there is shit motor controllers, not the battery chemistry.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Gasoline was $4.40 in 2008 and I just paid $1.65...what part don't you get?
Went to Catalina Island for a few days this week and on the way there, saw a sign that is repeated on this website: "Due to the lithium ion batteries Hoverboards are ILLEGAL to transport upon Catalina Express." Disregarding cameras, cell phones, watches, pacemakers, blah small electronics etc, anyone who has been to Catalina knows cars are scarce there (it's a 30 year waiting list to get a car permit) and everyone drives golf carts - which more and more use large lithium ion batteries now. I thought the sign to be really funny, yet sad (obviously). Hoverboards aren't banned because of the lithium-ion batteries, they're banned because they're 90degrees off and they're not hovering. Errr...they're banned because they were very cheaply manufactured, and have safety problems.
Fracking and alternative extraction technologies took the price of oil low enough that Saudi Arabia responded by dumping, to drive the new competitors out of the market.
I'm a libertarian, who will most likely vote for Trump
Fuck you, asshole.
I don't respond to AC's.
you're nuts to dump $30k on a new car to begin with...
I'm just glad a petrol powered car has never caught fire before.
- Chuq
So who's the bigger fool? Analysts who make SWAGs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_wild-ass_guess) about what the future will look like 25 years from now? Or the people who believe them?
The Nissan Leaf is one of the cheapest cars you can get that can blow away most other cars when accelerating from 0 to "legal in-town speed."
.)
If your commute involves stop lights and changing lanes, it is super fun to drive and a bargain. The general public still seems oblivious to its acceleration, which adds to the fun when you quietly blow past them when they try to cut you off in a "funny looking car" (while their ICE wails in futile protest. .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
fail
Have you ever heard about Ford Pinto?
You're gonna lose $10k within the first year, at this rate, even a re-registration fee of $500 is pretty cheap.
I predict that in ten years half the cars on the road today will still be on the road. I recall reading that the half life of a typical automobile is ten years or so, maybe as low as eight. So, even if the only factor in buying an electric car for the public was price we'd still be a long way from moving our national vehicle fleet off of fossil fuels.
I predict that in ten years the price of gasoline will be within 10% of what it costs now, not in dollars but in hours per day that the average working person works in a day/week/year. Dollars are a poor measure of wealth, productivity, or value. The value of a dollar is based much on what the government decides it does through mechanisms like a minimum wage, interest rates, and government bonds. What does not change much is how much is how much time a person is able to provide productive work in their life. Put the price of bread, gasoline, milk, or whatever is worth in hours worked and you have a measure that can hold up through time. There is a lot of oil still in the ground and we'll keep finding ways to drill for it.
I predict the government will still be transferring money from the poor to the wealthy so that they can buy shiny new four door penises... I mean electric vehicles. Who buys electric cars? It's not the plumbers, carpenters, and farmers in this nation. It's the DINKs (dual income, no kids). People with a lot of money to spend but not a lot of miles to carry tools, building material, salable goods, or kids. We'll be taxing those "rich" farmers that make $250,000 per year but have $240,000 in expenses to send their kids to college, put a new roof on the barn, and fix the "gas guzzling" truck used to haul livestock to market.
I'm sure second hand electric vehicles will make it to market for those less wealthy to buy, but then isn't this the "trickle down economics" that Reagan was pilloried over?
I predict that in ten years we will start to see a renewed interest in nuclear power. While this might seem like a way to make electric cars cheaper it has other benefits too. Cheap electricity means cheap aluminum, because aluminum refining is such an energy intensive process the price of aluminum is closely coupled to the price of energy. Cheap aluminum opens the door to lighter, cheaper, and more energy efficient vehicles. This benefits both EVs and dinosaur burners. A gas car has a large portion of its weight in the frame, engine, and body panels which are often made of steel, if made from aluminum that car gets much lighter. A big part of the EV weight is the battery, which does not benefit from cheap aluminum since they are not currently made from steel.
A huge problem with batteries is recharge time. Range limits alone would not be an issue if it only took five minutes to "refill" like a dinosaur burner. If for some reason my prediction on continued cheap oil fails then I have another prediction. I predict that we'll see cars fueled from ammonia, liquified/compressed air/nitrogen, or even wound up springs before electric cars win out. Assuming nuclear power makes gains in ten years (which I think is more like twenty) then what we will likely see is synthesized fuels. Synthetic fuel could be hydrocarbons, which is good for keeping some very expensive commercial airplanes flying. We could see synthetic ammonia as a fuel.
In warm climates liquified air can have longer range, shorter refuel times, better performance, and cheaper construction than anything electric. A bonus to driving a liquid air car on a hot day is that the faster you drive the better the air conditioning works.
In cold climates electric vehicles use a lot of range to heat the cabin. Liquid dinosaurs will reign in powering vehicles there. If we get enough nuclear power on line in ten years then synthesized fuels become viable.
If we are going to see a big shift in how we turn energy into transportation then we need to look at scales of thirty years. A typical commercial jet plane, ship at sea (cargo or military), and ma
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
That's the free market for you. Or don't you believe that a supplier has the right to sell their product at whatever price they wish, even if it is just to drive a competitor out of business? Business is business, right?
"Dumping" is just another way to say, "cut prices".
Or maybe you believe there should be laws regulating the price at which commodities can be sold?
You are welcome on my lawn.
You've gotta admit, people who will blame absolutely anything and everything wrong in their lives on Obama and the SJWs are nothing if not consistent.
"I have to vote for the fascist flim-flam man, because Obama and the SJWs have just pushed me too far"
There must be some small part of you that feels ashamed.
You are welcome on my lawn.
"Dumping" is just another way to say, "cut prices".
If the price of electric vehicles falls below that of dinosaur burners is this "dumping" or a "price cut"?
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
There isn't a single manufacturer that has any sort of a road-map for a 20-25 years time-span. When the manufacturers themselves don't even have the faintest of plans laid down, this prediction of where the market will be heading is a wild speculation at best
Fracking technology can be profitable as low as $36 a barrel, and the technology is still improving. So don't expect prices to go back to 2008 levels; they won't for a long time.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
His popularity is linked to the worsening situation and hopeless future of the white male lower and middle classes. White men have always had it better than other people of the same prosperity level and now they don't. This would be bearable if they where getting more wealth along with the country as a whole, but only the rich are benefiting from the current growth, if anything the poor and moderately wealthy are getting poorer in absolute as well as relative terms. So unlike previously disadvantaged groups within the lower and middle classes, who see rises in status offsetting static or decreasing wealth, things are only getting worse for white men, and this has lead to a backlash.
The solution to this is not to perpetuate sexism and racism under the guise of standing against "SJWs" or "political correctness" but to stop taxing the rich less than the poor in percentage terms and start engaging in actual "leftist" economic policies. Then people do not feel afraid of the apparently inevitable decline of everyone they know and care about, and don't need to lash out either. Hillary is too right wing to do this though.
Or we could just hand all the productivity gained from technological advances to the rich investors, while stripping jobs and wages from the poorer spenders who keep things moving, until the economy implodes due to customer shortage. Meanwhile beating on the most disadvantaged classes will help to vent the sense of impending doom the steady decline of everyone but the turbo rich causes.
The gains we've made in battery technology have been to improve on the cost, size, and weight of pretty much the same chemical reactions. At some point this technology will hit some very real limitations on improvements that can be made to battery technology. I wonder if we have not met those limitations already.
Like many technologies humans have made and improved upon over time the limits of physics start to come into play. At that point any gains start to come at a cost somewhere else. We might be able to make a battery that stores more energy but at the tradeoff that it stores it for a shorter amount of time, as a potential example.
I'm sure we'll see prices lower due to economies of scale but I think we've got about as much as we can from battery technology.
The one problem that is not likely to be overcome easily is the recharge rates of a battery. The faster a battery is charged the hotter it gets. The hotter it gets the more energy is lost as heat. If it gets too hot then it can be damaged.
A battery swap technique might work to address this problem on recharge rates but then we are back to the same problem as EVs have now, a shortage of places to recharge. A typical EV may have a means to plug into a common household outlet but that gives a very long recharge rate. A less common way to charge would be a plug much like one would see for a household oven or clothes dryer, those still take a long time to charge. A quick charge station will need a new kind of electrical plug and/or a battery swap mechanism. The cars would also have to support either, likely in addition to the common household charging plugs for the owner to charge at home, work, or wherever.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
This may well be true in 10 years. Predictions like these have a bad habit of failing. Will it be true forever? Maybe not. It depends on whether the economics work out. Currently the total efficiency just isn't favorable. The range isn't there and may never be there. My VW TDI (Yes, I know.) goes over 500 miles on one 14.5 gallon tank. Show me any EV that will go 500 miles on one charge and sells for under $30K. BTW I can do that and still have all of the power at the end of the tank as I had at the beginning. No need to drive 45 mph either.
I haven't heard what a new set of batteries costs for a Tesla but I bet it isn't cheap. Also Tesla has never made a profit and if it wasn't for government subsidies they would be out of business. It kind of reminds me of the ethanol scam.
I shouldn't need an overhaul for at least 500,000 miles. When I bought the car I asked the service manager how far the VW TDI would go before it needed an overhaul. He said, "I don't know. We've never had to overhaul one."
"Dumping" is just another way to say, "cut prices".
"Dumping" means selling below the cost of production, usually with the aim of driving competitors out of the market.
Dumping is hard to prove, and most accusations of dumping are just whining about competition. Saudi Arabia is NOT dumping because their cost of production is extremely low. They are still making a profit on every barrel they sell. Their objectives are more geopolitical than economic anyway, aimed at Iran and Russia, with Venezuela and American frackers as collateral damage.
"In the next few years, the total-cost-of-ownership advantage will continue to lie with conventional cars, and we therefore do not expect EVs to exceed 5% of light-duty vehicle sales in most markets -- except where subsidies make up the difference," Morsy said. "However, that cost comparison is set to change radically in the 2020s."
Subsidizing the dinosaur burning car industry is "corporate welfare" but subsidizing EV ownership is... what exactly?
I had my liberal friends tell me that the big automakers in the USA had to be bailed out years ago because those companies were "too big to fail". Now we have to subsidize EVs to compete with these companies. I say we would have had a lot more EVs on the market if we allowed the dinosaur burners to go out of business so that the EV makers could have bought up the factories at fire sale prices, re-tooled them to make EVs, and re-hired all those factory workers.
The problem is that EV makers don't seem to hire union labor. Funny that, we'll bail out the unions at the expense of the EVs. It will be interesting how this dynamic will play out. Liberals want to see the makers of dinosaur burners keep union workers working. Liberals also want to see the makers of those same dinosaur burners go out of business.
Get some popcorn, this is going to be a show as the liberals eat their own kind.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
On this site IC typically means integrated circuit instead of internal combustion. The former sounds pretty good, an engine with no moving parts.
I think it's doable actually, wrap the "rails" from a maglev train around the inside of the wheels. Use SCRs to electronically control the electro-magnetic field for propulsion... and there you go, and integrated circuit engine with no moving parts except the wheels.
EV's market share will remain marginal until a recharging infrastructure is built. People will need to see that they have a reliable means of charging their vehicles when they want to take any trip that is over 300 miles away from home.
This report is actually somewhat pessimistic, and makes the assumptions that the observed rate of cost reductions in lithium automotive batteries over the past decade will slow considerably. In recent years the rate of cost reduction has actually been increasing and stands around 14%/year over the past 3-4 years.
Their estimate of "average" cell prices is also somewhat high at $300/kWh for 2016 - Tesla is estimated to be in the $180-$200/kWh range today, and GM is getting a cell-level price of $145/kWh for the Bolt.
The crossover point for an equivalent--to-ICE performance BEV is two years ago for > $70k-class cars, likely to be 2018 for $35k-class cars, and 2020-22-ish for $20k cars. CUVs and Trucks may take a couple years longer as they need 30-50% more battery capacity to cover the same distance, aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance being real things...
CAPTCHA: Crucify. Seems fitting.
There is another term for that: "loss leaders".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Whether you use the term "dumping" or "loss leader" to describe what is basically the same exact thing depends entirely on your perspective. We were told that "global markets" were the solution to all our problems. Now that those same markets come back to bite us in the ass, there is a scramble to change the frame.
You are welcome on my lawn.
This is why we need a "None of the above" option where the election is pushed 2 years and none of the candidates from the current cycle are allowed to run again.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
I've taken a few multi thousand mile trips in my Tesla at a total cost of $4 for electricity. Are you telling me that this was all a dream and the thousands of worldwide Supercharger stations don't exist?
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Won't Electron Volt cars still have Integrated Circuits ?
There is another term for that: "loss leaders".
No. As your own citation explains, a "loss leader" means something different. A loss leader is an item priced low to draw customers to your business, so that you can sell them additional or alternative products. Example: Razor blade companies price the razor low to make money on blades, not to drive razor companies out of the market.
I think it's ridiculous that people have to worry about somebody policing who they can and can't marry; I think the war on drugs has ruined many more lives than it could ever hope to save and should be stopped; I think the death penalty is wrong. Point in fact, on most issues, I lean left. However, with the constant childish name-calling, spite-filled, intolerant, unadulterated hate that comes from the extreme left-wing in this country, I would never ever identify myself as a "progressive". What the left has become is to spit in the face of what true liberalism is about and many rational nominally left leaning people don't want anything to do with it.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
Oh yeah, Black Lives Matters oppresses you. Right. *yawn*
I don't respond to AC's.
We are a 2 car family. As I expect most families are. For me that means I can have the best of both worlds. I can have an ICE which I do longer trips in and an electric for the high frequency short trip.
When I compare the annual mileage of my two vehicles currently one averages about 22,500 km per year and the other only about 3000km. Of those 22,500km most are short trips, home to school, school to shops, home to saturday activity etc. Very few trips come close to more than 100km in any one go. Now that car is the nicer of the two vehicles but it wouldn't kill me to shift the say 2000 annual kms it does longer distance to the other car meaning it is left as an ideal usage case for an EV.
To be fair, it's possible to put out a petrol fire. A lithium battery fire on the other hand, there's pretty much fuck all you can do about it.
Their objectives are more geopolitical than economic anyway, aimed at Iran and Russia
And it worked like a charm. This is what makes the Saudis such good "allies". Anyone who says American foreign policy is weak, is talking out their ass. Besides, I still like to think that other energy sources coming on line in a big way is going to keep prices from ever rising above 60 dollars again anyway, so why not have a *going out of business* sale?
What becomes of an abandoned frack well? Are the frackers going to come out and clean up their mess? I don't think you want to hit that rusty old pipe with your new combine.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Maybe $30k is expensive for a new car in the States but $30k in Australia for a new car is quite cheap. As an easy comparison for you a new Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited Diesel is $68,000 drive away.
I've taken a few multi thousand mile trips in my Tesla at a total cost of $4 for electricity. Are you telling me that this was all a dream and the thousands of worldwide Supercharger stations don't exist?
It's more dream then reality. You are ignoring one, very important point: Most EV's can't use that Supercharger network
Look again. This is what my citation explains:
"ONE use of a loss leader is..."
That means there are others. Again, the difference is entirely in perspective. You're cutting prices in order to cause market disruption. Whether it's to take customers away from others, to draw new customers or to hurt the competition. Maybe we need to talk about what "competition" means in business.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Bloomberg is being very conservative on the date at which electric vehicles will replace liquid fueled vehicles. I also doubt that lithium ion will be the winner in the advanced battery contest.
Lot's of Li-powered cars already have. I don't understand why you Republicans hide the truth about how dangerous they are. Your kind puts profit ahead of people.
Okay, as a Republican, I'm sort of torn on this. Yes, I want the environment to be destroyed and for the world to choke in smog, but I also want to lovingly protect our billionaire businessmen and cartels who are producing these ultra-dangerous battery powered cars that may catch on fire. (nice!) The probably is that these things might inadvertently save the environment. (noooooooo!)
Maybe we can figure out a way for these electric cars to burn oil in some secondary capacity... Then they'd be perfect!
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
There's a difference between those excellent points and blaming "Obama and the SJWs" for the milk going bad.
Donald Trump is not the outcome of leftist policies. He's the result of a major political party riding the tiger of talk radio shock jocks who are all trying to be more horrible than the next one and calling it "talking tough". It's the result of the Southern Strategy, it's the result of creating a victim mentality among white working class people, convincing them that they're being oppressed. It's the result of a cheapening of discourse and the stoking of irrational fears - of xenophobia and plain, old bigotry. It's the result of the "bully effect", where weak-minded people feel empathy toward the strong papa-figure, as long as he sounds sufficiently like a hard-ass. It's the result of a fascism that's been dormant in the US for over a century and a half and really started to flower in 1980. The 20th century was stained with rivers of blood from what happens when that sort of ugliness takes hold in a portion of a society.
Don't blame some stupid college kids or feminists for the rise of the first candidate in decades that's been embraced by actual white supremacists and Nazis.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-...
You are welcome on my lawn.
What becomes of an abandoned frack well?
The frack wells are not being abandoned. The price of oil is still above the marginal cost of pumping from an existing well. Some frackers are even continuing to drill new wells. The technology is advancing rapidly, and the breakeven price is falling. Cheap oil is here to stay.
You know this only happens for the top 0.1% of income earners in the country, and that taxing them at a higher rate would not yield significantly more revenue for the US government?
The carried interest loophole definitely needed to be smoked out. That leaves muni bonds and capital gains taxes. (Interest on muni bonds is tax exempt based on municipality residence.) Since muni bonds fund public infrastructure projects, do you really want to cut the tax exempt status on those, or do you want to continue to let the 0.1% fund infrastructure projects? Capital gains taxes are 15% for lower income brackets and 20% for higher income brackets, so it seems like that's ok?
I don't disagree that there are some systemic problems in society - like there always have been and always will be, and it's worthwhile to try to fix them - but let's look at some correct facts and figures before deciding which group of people to behead first.
Yup, very flawed logic there, but they don't want to admit that low gas prices may keep their fairy tale of "clean cars" from happening. They also just want to look at the problem of pollution coming from gas cars but not the pollution created during the manufacturing of electric cars. And they live in the dream world where all future energy will come from clean renewable sources. If that comes to pass then they can gloat, but it seems more likely we will end up burning more oil to make electricity and transport and store it and use at low efficiency than we would just to burn the fuel in the car, not to mention the chances of using coal or nuclear to make a lot of that more demanded than ever energy to feed all of those EV's, with the extra pollution problems or the nuclear waste and safety problems.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Have you ever tried to put out a carbequeue?
I don't think you've even seen a car on fire to think you can put it out - fire departments don't even try. If there is somebody inside the car, they'll work at getting them out, but they generally just keep people back and wait for the fire to go out.
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
Nobody believes that Saudi Arabia is selling below cost. They can make money on their oil at 1/4 the current market price. The reason OPEC exists is to control production and increase prices - thereby increasing profits. This is a cartel and would be illegal if these were companies and not nations.
I don't know what you think is "biting us in the ass" - unless you were investing in shale oil in the Dakotas. Lots of people are losing their shirts because they need to make more than $65 per barrel to make back their investment.
Other than the collusion by some of the producing nations, this is how markets work. The price of the commodity got high enough that additional investment was drawn in and new technologies increased the supply. Nothing is being reframed. The Saudis happened to have a huge supply of easily obtained oil that allows them to turn on the spigot at will. At the same time they happened to have political interests in harming Russian producers and driving US Shale Oil production out of business. The long term impact of this new strategy remains to be seen.
I have to admit that I've warmed to the idea of an electric car, but it's not really ready for prime time (i.e. the 99%) yet.
Come see me when I get the same range as a gas-powered car, I can charge it relatively quickly (15 mins, tops), the number of publicly available charging stations is within a reasonable parity with gas stations, and desert heat won't destroy the life of the storage medium.
Until then, it'll take a hell of a lot more than price parity to get me in an EV... Like a Tesla Roadster for $25K. (Not gonna happen.)
Think about how cheap electronic stuff from China can be. Take out the shock absorbers and replace them with electromagnetic devices. Take out the brakes (apart from maybe a single use emergency brake) and use regenerative braking with reverse power for low speed braking. You are left with the most reliable moving parts, which cuts down on costs. The determinant is cheap battery manufacture at high economies of scale.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
They absolutely do try to put petrol car fires out, because they melt the tarmac underneath, and end up needing the road to be resurfaced if they don't get put out. They're relatively easy to put out - just need to throw foam at it.
Meanwhile, with lithium:
1) The fire burns hotter (around 600C rather than 450-500ish for petrol)
2) There's basically nothing you *can* put on it to put it out. Water will react with it, nitrogen will react with it, CO2 won't smother it, foam will react with it, dry powder can't smother it. About the only way you can put out a lithium fire is to bury it in sand, and that requires several dump trucks to somehow get near a 600C fire, and even then, you get a big blob of glass to clear up off a highway.
Fuck you, asshole.
(Score:3, Insightful)
Fascinating!
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Oh, "the Left". The oh-so-repressive Left. Yes, so much "hate" from the Left. Boy, that Bernie Sanders sure is hateful... [rolls eyes]
I don't respond to AC's.
Wrong. Class D extinguishers are meant specifically for metal fires like thermite.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
If you don't live in Europe you don't even know what "left" actually is.
In the US we have right and slightly less right.
Don't even start.
Also, what will television shows do with electric vehicles? They can't very well have them go up in a fireball like gasoline ones. Maybe an electrical storm?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
That was about the time engineers from Kodak started jumping ship.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
I shouldn't need an overhaul for at least 500,000 miles. When I bought the car I asked the service manager how far the VW TDI would go before it needed an overhaul. He said, "I don't know. We've never had to overhaul one."
Electric cars shouldn't need 'overhauls' either. We've had electric motors, individual ones, that use the same basic technology as is in an EV engine, running for darn near a century without needing major repair. You might need to open one up every few hundred thousand miles to replace the bearings and/or grease, but that should be about it. The drive train, minus the battery, should long outlast the interior.
As for the AC calling EVs a fad and Tesla disappearing, I figure that the worst we'll see for Tesla is it being bought by a major auto manufacturer and becoming their EV luxury line.
I don't read AC A human right
The amount of lithium available isn't the problem at all - it's more like the will to use it.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
A selection of random vehicles that just happened to be easy to find apples-to-apples 0-30 numbers for:
2015 Subaru WRX: 0-30 in 1.7, 0-60 in 5.1
2015 Volkswagen GTI: 0-30 in 2.3, 0-60 in 5.8
2014 Chevrolet Impala LT: 0-30 in 2.4, 0-60 in 6.0
2014 Volkswagen Jetta SE: 0-30 in 2.4, 0-60 in 7.3
2015 Ram 1500 Laramie Longhorn Limited 4x4 Crew Cab: 0-30 in 2.4, 0-60 in 7.4
2014 Mazda 6 Grand Touring: 0-30 in 2.5, 0-60 in 7.0
Nissan Pathfinder LE 4x4: 0-30 in 2.5, 0-60 in 7.5
2014 Kia Forte EX: 0-30 in 2.6, 0-60 in 7.3
2014 Mazda 3 i Touring: 0-30 in 2.7, 0-60 in 7.6
2014 Chevrolet Spark EV: 0-30 in 3.2, 0-60 in 7.9
2013 Nissan Leaf SL: 0-30 in 3.4, 0-60 in 10.2
In other words, unless you only "race" 1990's SUVs and minivans, actually you just drive like an arrogant jerk with a superiority complex and delusions of persecution.
I thought most all-American guys need 400HP for that!
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Also, what will television shows do with electric vehicles? They can't very well have them go up in a fireball like gasoline ones. Maybe an electrical storm?
Rather like the control panels on the U.S.S. Enterprise, etc.
Despite the fact that primitive 20th Century control circuitry generally operates off low power levels, leaving the heavy lifting (sparky) stuff down in the Engine Room.
Don't be upset. It's absolutely essential to burn petrochemicals. It is a well-known fact that only petrochemicals create jobs.
And we wouldn't want to interfere with job creation, would we? Where would American business be if it couldn't export jobs to China and India?
I'm not all that big a fan of EVs, but I feel compelled to mention that gasoline and diesel powered cars have been known to catch on fire as well.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Yes I know it's sarcasm above but it's worth looking up the number of wells running in the USA versus two years ago.
The Saudis have won.
The attempt at energy independence via shale etc failing due to the Saudis dumping oil has resulted in a lot of people getting driven out of business and a lot of jobs lost because they cannot compete against a cartel that has already paid for a lot of infrastructure and could afford to drive the oil price down to rock bottom for a while. It's a kingdom showing that an entire wealthy country under autocratic control can tell capitalism to fuck off and die - a ridiculous situation but that's why the jobs are gone and your post is a bit out of date.
Back to the main topic, having things such as electric cars in the mix puts us less at the mercy of foreign powers. If we do nothing it's not just the Saudis but the Iranians and Russians could have us by the balls in the long run.
It's not really a free market. It's a medieval kingdom telling capitalism to go fuck itself.
I've taken a few multi thousand mile trips in my Tesla at a total cost of $4 for electricity. Are you telling me that this was all a dream and the thousands of worldwide Supercharger stations don't exist?
It will be wonderful if it all comes true some day, but for now it is an expensive dream...
A car that doesn't make money, being sold for crazy high luxury prices, being recharged on "free" superchargers that future cars won't get for "free", yea, it is a dream for now...
Actually they are. I'm not sure where I read the article but if you look up the number of wells operating in the USA two years ago versus today it's a massive drop, something like 75% or more shut down.
> Also, what will television shows do with electric vehicles?
I imagine that for the first three or four decades of general EV use, "Hollywood" will do exactly what it does with conventional vehicles. Load the vehicle up with pyrotechnics and touch them off at the dramatically appropriate moment. Eventually, they may work out something else, maybe even something more realistic. But we're talking entertainment here, not reality.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Typically the entire point is to not have the pollution in mid-city so that's not considered anything other than a triviality for better or worse. You do have a point but it will usually be dismissed as irrelevant or scraping the barrel to find something wrong somewhere. It's better to argue on cost versus performance or other things that people consider more relevant.
A well educated brain twitches each time it perceives the "catch on fire" concoction. Something can "catch fire" and "be on fire".
The car companies will switch to renting the batteries, like Renault for example does it with the Twizy car.
Somebody crashed my Smart car (2. car in the family) and I wanted to buy a Twizy, but 50€ a month is too much, with my Smart I put gas for 25€ in it and I drive for 5-6 weeks, so this would cost me more than double the amount. So I bought another Smart.
I wait for the day that they claim that building your own battery will violate their 'copyright'.
This seems to get more common, I just read an article about the new Alexa movie camera (The Revenant f. ex) which can't be bought as well, the studios have to rent it for 2500€ a day. (It's a German company)
The attempt at energy independence ... jobs lost because they cannot compete ... can tell capitalism to fuck off and die ...
I think you're confusing some goals. Energy independence isn't very capitalistic. The market pricing out a subset of competitors IS very capitalistic.
That doesn't mean I think any of that is "right", but that's a different matter. We, the people, have allowed this to happen.
You know we have a libertarian candidate to vote for, right?
The longer that people pretend that elections are a choice between "two people" despite numerous candidates, the longer those two people's parties will have a stranglehold on our politics.
The Saudis won today sure but oil is a long term thing and the price of it ever creeps up above $50 a barrel means that those shale reserves can be reopened. Saudi doomed itself to long term failure its oil reserves won't last another 30 years as long as Saudi is the dominant producer. Once those reserves run dry they have nothing else to fall back on. Where as the USA us lots of things to fall back on and once the price goes up we have reserves.
Same goes for all sorts of rare earth metals. We use things break them and toss them in land fills when the price gets right we will extract those again and make a killing.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
There is no such thing as a free market. There has never been a free market. The free market is a fairy tale used to keep people in economic bondage.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Globalism. That's what's biting us in the ass.
You are welcome on my lawn.
No, that's just a symptom. A competitor selling a product for prices lower than you are (due to better technology or malice or whatever) so you don't have any sales is only a problem if you need sales to survive. I would say the real problem is that we are stuck in a system where most people are required to trade goods or services in order to obtain their basic necessities. That is, even if you've obtained the basics, you can't usually keep them unless you trade with others.
This means that, even outside "non-social" disruptions like a drought or something that reduces crop yields, you've got the extra burden of always having to trade to produce extra to pay taxes, etc.
This means that any disruption to your trade threatens survival - doesn't matter if it's due to globalism or the guy next door. Somehow we've got to make things more robust to changes in demand, so that standards of living can be maintained even if demand decreases.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
You raise interesting points. I'll have to think about this a little while.
If it's the guy next door, I can walk over and talk to him about it. If it's globalism, I can only slide downhill. Because there will always be someone in worse shape than you who will undercut your price.
I'm really starting to believe that we've reached peak uregulated capitalism some years ago. At least we've maxed out capitalism's capability to improve our lives. Maybe, like socialism or even communism, capitalism is only capable of taking your society from here to there and no further.
You are welcome on my lawn.
it's the result of creating a victim mentality among white working class people, convincing them that they're being oppressed
Between the war on drugs, the socialisation of risk and privatisation of profit, uncapping of political donationa and corporate protectionism masquerading as free trade, working class people are pretty much being oppressed.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Saudi Arabia thus has complete control about the oil price because they can sell at prices that would bankrupt everyone else and still make a profit. And Saudi Arabia waited long enough for enough companies to invest much money into shale oil and only then lowered the oil price to drive them out of competition when much of the money was burnt, but not much revenue yet generated. Investors for the next future will be very wary to ever invest in alternative oil sources again.
And the oppressing class is convincing them that they're really being oppressed by those dark-complexioned people over there. And feminists, of course, because nothing says "jack-booted oppressor" like some college girl who doesn't shave her armpits.
When Donald Trump says, "I love the poorly educated", he gave a glimpse into the mindset of the people who mean us absolutely no good.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
You are welcome on my lawn.
I sold something on Craigslist.com to a guy in the next town, about 15 minutes away via highway. He said that he would pick the item up right away, but he had to charge his car first (a Leaf) which would take an hour or so. That sounded comically backwards to me.
If you can't see how a President with no qualifications whose platform was "Hope" and "God Damn America" could set the stage for Trump your mind is warped by bias. Oh, and Obama is backed by extremist who have actually murdered people.
You do know that a Prius doesn't use lithium batteries, don't you?
Why not? Winters can be a bit nippy up here in Vermont and the prospect of freezing my derierre off for hours while I nurse the battery (which produces no waste heat and doesn't work so well in really cold weather anyway) on my occasional visits to civilization doesn't appeal. Might consider a hybrid when and if my 17 year old Camry dies.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
The only people creating division and polarization are Fox Propaganda, other right wing blowhards such as Glenn Beck, and Donald Trump. The Feelthy Queers are out to ruin marriage! The Scary Mooselimbs are out to kill us all! The Greasy Spics are coming to take our jobs! Smelly Hippies! Shameless Hussies! Union Thugs! OOGA BOOGA BOOGA!
Here's the bleeding obvious truth. If Feelthy Queers threaten your marriage, you need to get counseling. Random nutjobs with guns are far more likely to kill you than terrorists. Some good stiff fines will do more for illegal immigration than all the walls that the drug cartels can tunnel under. Get the Pill to any woman who has a vaild prescription, and you won't be spending so much on food stamps. And unions aren't worth a hoot these days, outside of certain industries.
Donald Trump is merely saying out loud what the Plutocrat Party has been dog-whistling since Saint Ronald at least. The mean old wiberals did not create Trump. Conservatives did.
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
You Hundred Percent Red Blood Americans have an entire cable news network dedicated to spreading your bullshit, and here you are upset about a few mouthy "SJWs"? How about you turn off Fox Propaganda and listen to what some actual "SJWs" have to say, instead of what Fox Propaganda says about them.
One, it *is* bullshit. If hard work got you ahead, then everyone who toils behind a McDonald's counter would be a millionaire. And these days, studying and bettering yourself may only get you four years older and deeper in debt, assuming you can find the time after working two jobs for bullshit pay. Donald Trump got four bankruptcies. Many a former student would like just one.
Two, they're *tenets*, unless they're paying rent. And if you have to call something a tenet, it's probably bullshit.
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
Class D fire extinguishers are holy shit toxic and very expensive.
So are standard hydrocarbon extinguishing foams. The ones that work anyway. The synthetic shit can't handle any level of alcohol including the 10% ethanol in your fuel tank.
I don't know what gives here.
The folks on (the late) Oil Drum were assuring me that the Saudi's were running out of oil?
They're relatively easy to put out - just need to throw foam at it.
I see you've never put out a car fire before. The wonderful thing about car fires is that a car is a very three dimensional object. Foam's use case is to smother a fire and prevent oxygen which makes a car pretty much the worst case scenario for a foam extinguisher. Also given the length of time and amount of foam a typical extinguisher can expel you're left with only one choice in a fully engulfed car fire scenario: Call the fire brigade and have them bring foam injecting branches and them cover the car in a metric shitton of foam. Real bonus points if the mag wheels catch fire in the process.
The idea that a lithium battery with it's VERY limited amount of fuel is harder to put out than the petrol car fire is absurd. Lithium actually has the nice benefit that by the time the fire department shows up they can just put water on it. It burns very bloody quickly and while a litre of fuel in a softdrink bottle can burn for a good hour a lithium battery pack the same size will vapourise itself within a minute or two.
Oh and lithium can be put out with Class-D, but it has the same problem in a car as foam does. It doesn't work very well on 3D surfaces, and doesn't provide any cooling so fires will re-ignite themselves after you put them out when they come in contact with air again.
It's not that the Saudi Oil would be cheap because the infrastructure is already in place. It's because you don't need much infrastructure at all to get it. The cost to get one barrel of crude ready for shipping in Saudi Arabia is about $3. Texan oil from oil wells cost about $16, shale oil and oil from oil sands about $60.
Saudi Arabia thus has complete control about the oil price because they can sell at prices that would bankrupt everyone else and still make a profit. And Saudi Arabia waited long enough for enough companies to invest much money into shale oil and only then lowered the oil price to drive them out of competition when much of the money was burnt, but not much revenue yet generated. Investors for the next future will be very wary to ever invest in alternative oil sources again.
Indeed! Good analysis. I think on this every time I still see those EnergyTomorrow.org spots talking up how we are soon going to be energy independent, (hooray!).
The game was well played by the Saudis. Kudos to them.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
There have never been more outlets for speech. Unfettered, unedited, free speech.
So what you're saying is, it's not the feminists, it's not the scary poor people, it's the kids these days who are oppressing the white male.
You've made my point.
You are welcome on my lawn.
In the US, seventeen gasoline cars catch fire every hour, amounting to 150000 cars catching fire per year. Here comes the new wave of electric car trolls.
This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
As you can all see, I didn't imagine this mentality. Obama caused Trump by exhorting people to hope. Oh, and Reverend Wright, who is his chief of staff.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I've followed EV development with interest, but the larger ecosystem needs to be sorted out. We need to generate electricity to charge EVs, and we need to distribute it where it's needed. Here in British Columbia we generate almost all of our electricity with hydroelectric dams, so I'm not worried about the carbon footprint.
I'd love to drive an electric car myself, and a Nissan Leaf would cover 98% of my driving. But I live in an apartment building, there are no EV facilities, and in the absence of incentives or legal requirements, the owners aren't interested in changing that.
...laura
Manufacturing pollutes. But not all pollutes the same. I've seen data that shows, when you look at the complete supply & production chain, that the Prius is a much dirtier car than similar size gasoline cars. Even the all electric (European) VW Passat GTE Plug-in seems to be dirtier to produce. Don't know about the Tesla yet but would love to see a thorough study.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Well, lefty, you're the one who said "Fuck you, asshole" for simply stating my opinion.
sig: sauer
The Saudi's haven't "won". They've just prolonged the inevitable. Which is really good for stability in the middle east in the short term. In the long term 70% of our oil is used for transportation. If we didn't use oil for transportation we could easily produce the requisite amount of oil domestically. At the peak of the shale boom we produced nine million barrels per day. The US daily consumption is 23 million barrels.
One of the "beats" at the Oil Drum was that of (at the time) 85 million barrels per day world oil production, 10 million came from Saudi, and fully half of that or 5 million barrels per day was from a single province called Ghawar.
It was said that the Saudis used to be able to drive down the price of oil at will by "turning up the spigot", but their prized oil field was "drying up" because they were water flooding it to maintain production. Although the Saudis "hold their cards close to the vest", it was said that the "water cut" -- the amount of water they had to separate from the oil they recovered on account of the water flooding to wring more oil production -- was increasing to alarming levels.
One of the main themes of the Oil Drum web site was that oil wasn't just about "reserves" or how much you had in the ground, it was also about how fast you could produce it, and also how fast you could produce it without wrecking the reservoir and leaving the remaining oil unrecoverable.
Limit to how far (the Saudis) can push (a price war)? The Oil Drum people were arguing that they didn't have the production capacity anymore to do what they are doing right now.
I'm a libertarian, who will most likely vote for Trump
Good on you sir! He looks like the best choice we're gonna have.
Just had to say that.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> You Hundred Percent Red Blood Americans have an entire cable news network dedicated to spreading your bullshit
Semi-balances out all the others......
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Saudi government is oil funded. That government has sunk costs and commitments that it must keep. Neither blowjobs in DC or plastique in Gaza are cheap.
Add that to the actual annual cost of oil production. Maintaining the Saudi state and royal family might as well be considered a 'fixed'* cost of the the Saudi national oil company.
* not actually fixed as largely unaccounted. Take a WAG at the #
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Above post is better if read out loud in the pregnant cop from the movie Fargo's voice.
dontyouknow.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You have not had modern electric motors or motor controllers for a century.
The controllers and motors in industrial machines last a long time. Between 'a few' and 'many' thousand hours of operation, with the usual caveats. 10,000 hours is about 2 years continuous operation.
The controllers run at fairly high internal voltages, caps are stressed in routine operation, cooling is critical.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
So you'll lose $20k the first year?
I'm from a part of the states where cars go to rust. I now live in CA where cars don't rust. The old cars here are great. $3k on the car, another $3k on race parts (maybe a little more, but not much more for a street driver) and you're golden. Much better than new. Better suspension, brakes and engine.
The ugly pealing clear paint makes the new car drivers get out of your way even faster. Fixing that would be cheap, rent the paint booth, $150/day.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
No you wouldn't lose 20k. Second hand 2014 models are going for $50k to $60k depending on odometer, condition and options. I'm looking at a 2nd hand 2014 with 47000km for 52500 atm.
In addition to this I have a 2007 Subaru Impreza which I paid $27,000 new for and am aiming to sell for around $10,000.
Plus also filling the jobs of all those people who used to operate them but were laid off.
It is a big deal.
Precisely.
Only this goes way beyond the usual.
It took well over a decade of work before they were viable in the first place. It will take less next time but it will still take years. It's not turning on a switch, it's assembling a group of people and equipment after securing the funds to do the task. Getting the funds is going to be difficult due to the previous failure.
I keep hearing that a lot but have not seen it in the last three decades. Even relatively trivial operations such as extracting from a coal fired power stations' ash dam do not seem to be happening.
It's not confusion it's why the shale companies got some government help in the early stages. While some may scream "corporate welfare" it was a manifestation of a policy to not be so much at the mercy of the actions of other nations.
It's often not expressed so plainly because Carter did so and lost in a landslide.
One of the interesting theories I've heard is that Saudi Arabia is scared that electric cars are the future, and when that happens they will be left sitting on a bunch of worthless oil. Therefore they are pumping out the oil as fast as they can to sell it while it's still worth something. Which is also why they are continuing, even now, to ramp up production even though they've already managed to drive the price way down.
Are you telling me that this was all a dream and the thousands of worldwide Supercharger stations don't exist?
Well if by "thousands" you mean 863, nearly all of which are in the US or Europe...
You have not had modern electric motors or motor controllers for a century.
The modern electric motors are just refined versions of the old ones. You have a point about the controllers - the AC frequency sets the speed at which they rotate at, and changing the AC frequency is how you turn them from a static speed drive as used in industry into a variable speed drive used in cars. So yes, the question as to how long the controller will last is a valid question, but I haven't heard of them going out all that frequently. As you say, cooling is critical, but they do keep them cooled.
I don't read AC A human right
Tesla has over 3000 charging stations. Plugshare has more than 50,000 charging stations. In addition, most EV owners plug in at home for convenient overnight charging. Electricity is everywhere and everyone has access at home ( unlike gas stations which require a large investment and rely on trucks to deliver fuel).
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Brushless motors have little in common with AC or DC motors.
They both use electromagnetic fields and windings. That's about as far as the similarities go.
No (very little anyhow) modern industrial equipment uses old school motors. They are pretty much all variable speed multi-pole brushless motors and controllers.
The day of just generating tons of hydraulic flow and pressure and wasting the part you don't need is over. There days many machines use brushless motors directly, where 20 years ago it would have been hydraulic.
In Industry motors and controllers are both maintenance items. But not all that frequent. You can get an idea of how many are sold by searching ebay for 'frequency drives' 'spindle controller' or any of a dozen other jargon terms for the motor controller.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Your "opinion" is stupid, wrong, and destructive. People who hurt other people (Trump voters) deserve derision and scorn.
I don't respond to AC's.
Maybe you should read the definition of opinion before opening your mouth.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Tesla has over 3000 charging stations.
rather than he said, she said, how about some references. Here's where I got my number: http://www.teslarati.com/inter...
Plugshare has more than 50,000 charging stations.
Not as convenient for the person on the go.
In addition, most EV owners plug in at home for convenient overnight charging. Electricity is everywhere and everyone has access at home ( unlike gas stations which require a large investment and rely on trucks to deliver fuel).
Yes but an investment which is already paid for, which actually makes a big difference.
I'm not knocking EVs, as soon as one reaches my price range and aesthetic standards (Apart from Tesla, why are they all so fucking ugly?) I'll get one, but I'm not going to pretend that they are as flexible as ICE for traveling out of town.
I'm familiar with it. Sometimes, opinions are just wrong.
I don't respond to AC's.
And the oppressing class is convincing them that they're really being oppressed by those dark-complexioned people over there.
You talk a good talk - link to your assertion above?
And feminists, of course, because nothing says "jack-booted oppressor" like some college girl who doesn't shave her armpits.
Link?
When Donald Trump says, "I love the poorly educated", he gave a glimpse into the mindset of the people who mean us absolutely no good.
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
You should perhaps reexamine why such an objectionable person is rising to power. Sure, constant name-calling is hardly "oppression", but it doesn't win you any friends when (for example) you punish people for saying #AllLivesMatter.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
So many logical mistakes... Amazing. It's staggering you don't choke to death when getting dressed every morning. I think the real problem you have is making massive generalisations about disparate groups of people - of course you will end up confused and bitter. Being able to understand the world around you relieves so much of that garbage, and you won't end up on Slashdot proudly proclaiming how scared and confused you are like it's something to be proud of.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11...
http://www.avoiceformen.com/fe...
You set 'em up, goose, and I'll knock 'em down.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You want a link that shows white people feel like they're oppressed by black people? Here, with plenty of links to particular surveys:
http://www.vice.com/read/white...
You know very well that there isn't a citation in the world that's going to convince you. You're just going to respond, "But that doesn't show what you said!" to everything I post. Because that's how you do.
You are welcome on my lawn.
It seems like the problem with fracking is mostly not the fracking itself but the disposal of excess fracking fluids by injecting them in dry wells.
So you plan on moving to Canada when Trump wins?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
ROFL thanks for proving my point! Lets see...you used ad hominem attacks, made yourself some lovely strawmen to attack (just FYI I'm a socialist, just not a racist like the SJWs) and the whole fucking time you pretended the whack-a-doodles which I clearly fucking showed you right there on camera don't exist!
Thanks to dumb fucknuts like you we are about to experience a harder right shift than the one which gave us Reagan. Congrats dipshit, hope you enjoy a dozen years of trickle upon economics and hard right policies brought about by dumb twats like you that refused to do a God damned thing or speak up about the insane-os that have been grabbing the mike from the moderate left for the better part of a decade..
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
You want a link that shows white people feel like they're oppressed by black people?
Yup. It's what you claimed
Here, with plenty of links to particular surveys:
None of those surveys asked white people "do you feel oppressed by black people?", so no - they don't support your factually incorrect statement. Rather, the survey in question reveals that whites think that "there is as much discrimination against whites as there is against blacks". Direct quote out of your own linked survey, which you really should have read before posting.
http://www.vice.com/read/white...
You know very well that there isn't a citation in the world that's going to convince you. You're just going to respond, "But that doesn't show what you said!" to everything I post. Because that's how you do.
It literally doesn't back up what you said! If your links do not support your assertion, what do you expect me to say?
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
As someone who lives in North Dakota, I know right away where your mistake is.
The number of DRILLING RIGS has dropped off a cliff, 75% is in the ballpark of what it has been. Drilling rigs and wells are not the same thing.
The only wells that have been shutdown are extremely old wells that have been exhausted/worn out and would have been shutdown anyway and wells belonging to owners who leveraged up too much and can't pay the bills. The latter is only temporary as the well gets bought up in bankruptcy court. The vast majority of operators are still profitable in terms of marginal cost, since the sunk cost of the well has already been spent.
What has happened is well operators slowing down the pumps; both to be more efficient in terms of electricity consumed by the motor and to better time the pickup schedule when the storage tanks get full.
Saudi Arabia will break before US oil producers do.