Is $699 Too Much For a 13.3-inch Android E-ink Reader?

Robotech_Master writes: GoodEReader editor Michael Kozlowski is running an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign to sell a $699 13.3" Android e-ink tablet. The campaign seeks $42,000--enough to fund the 60-device minimum order set by the OEM. But is it really a good deal for that much money? As an early-adopter or business-class device, it very well might be.

Comments

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject

Re:Yes

[naughtynaughty]

How fast do you need the ink on your documents to move?

Re: Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

When Chinese companies are making e-ink Android tablets for a fifth of that, yes. It's ridiculous. People need to stop pretending e-ink is a premium product - it doesn't cost that much to manufacture, and it's inferior in every way except battery life and contrast. Eventually these companies are going to conclude nobody wants e-ink instead of concluding there's a market at smaller margins, and that'll be the end of e-ink.

Re:Yes

[Qzukk]

The 12" iPad Pro starts at $799ish, so the question basically boils down to "Do you want an iPad Pro sized e-Ink display for $100 less than the iPad Pro?"

As the other people pointed out, ongoing support will likely be a problem, both in terms of warranty replacement (with only about 60 in existence) and software updates.

Personally, I *DO* want a reader this size and I'm considering getting this one. For $699 I'd kind of like a color display, but it looks like all of the eink triton displays on the market have an extremely gray base so I think color eink just doesn't work yet.

Re: Yes

[peragrin]

Exactly. What get me is why isn't there more e ink being used?

I have been waiting for an link GPS device for years. GPS mapping and guidance can deal with the lags of updating GPS positions, e ink has high contrast works great outdoors, and vastly increases battery life which is essential in a mobile electronic map.

a 5-6 " eink android tablet with built in GPS and go for broke and put a solar panel on the back. You could hike for days without needing replacement batteries or a dedicated charging system.

instead we have massive color displays that suck down batteries like there is no tomorrow.on tiny screens that can't give you a good overview of the area.

Re: Yes

[beelsebob]

An eInk display that updates every few seconds will not save you any power. These things only save power when you only turn the page every minute or two.

Re: Yes

[tsa]

What is the difference between reflected light?

Re: Yes

[Nethead]

That's a lot of work to replace a paper map and compass.

Re: Yes

[slashping]

A paper map and compass don't tell you where you are.

Re: Yes

[zugmeister]

instead we have massive color displays that suck down batteries like there is no tomorrow...

Ah, but that pretty looking color display looks great on the showroom floor, especially when placed next to an e-ink reader for contrast. Check out the tablets next time you're in a Best Buy.

Re: Yes

[meerling]

e-ink/e-paper is really cheap to make, and yes, it does have some advantages for certain things, like viewing in sunlight, and it also has disadvantages, but that's another thread. The problem is it's new and marketing is getting themselves all worked up with the hopes of a premium profit orgy since this is new tech. Thus you have to pay utterly stupid prices to get your hands on it.
It's too bad really, if they put it at a more realistic pricing, it would have already taken over the display world for various purposes. (Not video, it currently doesn't do color video worth a snot.)

Re: Yes

[meerling]

Reflected light and what?
    Refracted light?
    Backlight?
    Self illumination?
    Quantum Superposition?
    A Chihuahua-Mart?
    Your mom?
    Bananas?

Your sentence really kind of needs to be completed or some people will be lost, and others will go places you never imagined. ;)

Re: Yes

[beelsebob]

So then... it would be useless for a GPS ;)

Re: Yes

[Nethead]

They might not tell YOU where you are, but they sure can tell me where I am if I've just been hiking around. Besides, just turn on your phone for a few minutes and get the lat and long from it if you want to be lazy about it.

Re: Yes

[Bartles]

Actually, contrast sucks compared to amoled.

Re: Yes

[jtownatpunk.net]

Three.

Re: Yes

[KGIII]

Hmm... I refreshed the thread. I half-way expected them to reply with something like, "If you don't know, I'm not telling you. You're too stupid to understand."

No, I really was expecting that. In short, as near as I can tell, they mostly spouted gibberish, shit in their pants, and then donned their Burger King crown and sat there looking proud as if they'd accomplished greatness.

Re: Yes

[KGIII]

They certainly do if you're properly equipped and know what you're doing with them. Yes, yes you can put me into an unknown area with just a map and a compass and I will shortly tell you where I am. I can then give you an estimate as to how long it will take me to reach the destination, plot a route, follow that route, and check to make sure that I am on that route. I can probably even accomplish this after dark but that will slow me down a bit.

A map does, when it's a decent map, tell you many things - including where you are. It's not always instant. You may have to move to find a place where you can say you know for certain where you are - in other words, if you magically appear somewhere and didn't look at the map to get there then you may need to move, find something you can pinpoint, and then you'll know where you are as well as where you were when you didn't know where you are. Fortunately, the world is not magical and it's unlikely that you'll just magically appear somewhere.

Given the content of your comment... It's obvious that you haven't a clue how to use a map and a compass. A good compass is important. A good compass will enable you to quickly shoot a rather precise azimuth and, from there, you can figure out a lot of things - you may need to get to a point of elevation. Once I can see, or even feel - in the case of elevation differences, I can figure out where I am and the route I need to take to reach my destination.

Don't let it smash your ego - most people don't have a clue. They probably won't ever need to. They don't know how to properly read a map. They don't know how to navigate with a map - except, maybe, a route map. So long as they stay in their safe spaces and everything works out then they'll never need to know. Chances are really good that they'll never need to know.

And no, don't argue... Really, don't... Unless you've got some contrived situation then maps and a compass are all the navigational tools one needs assuming you're not retarded in the first place. Yes, that includes a featureless desert. It even includes the North Pole or Magnetic North where the compass is of less value. A good map, some knowledge, a little effort, and you'll know exactly where you are soon enough. Don't panic and turn the map right-side up.

Hmm... I'm not entirely sure how to type out how to properly use a compass. I'm not that articulate. So, go take a course with the Cub Scouts or something. They could use an adult's help and attention. In return, they'll teach you how to use a map. No, I'm not kidding. Give it a shot, you'll like it. It's obvious you've no idea what you're talking about. You can make-do without a compass, usually. That's not recommended. If you know where you are, you needn't a map nor a compass - depending on your goal. But, a map be used to figure out where you are - often within a few feet if you've got adequate maps.

You know... What do you think we did before GPS? Have you ever heard of "orienteering?" Good maps AND knowing how to use them are great. A real compass, one with which you can shoot azimuths, is a great tool in the right hands. I've mentioned this before, I'll mention it again... The first half of my first four years enlisted were in infantry. Yup... I was nothing more than a straight-up rifleman. Things like navigation are essential tools and reliance on technology without the basics was not considered good form. Then again, we didn't actually have GPS. It was there, we didn't have it. I'm not actually sure how much of it was in place at the time. It didn't matter, we didn't have it. I do still have my compass. It's somewhere packed away unless one of my kids absconded with it.

Re: Yes

[KGIII]

They won't tell you where you are if you're an idiot, that is correct.

Re: Yes

[dbIII]

Exactly. What get me is why isn't there more e ink being used?

Licensing issues.
Annoying as fuck.

They want "high value products" instead of making a killing as millions of really cheap low end tablets flood the global market.

Re: Yes

[dbIII]

The updates don't consume a lot of power in comparison to LCDs either.
Debian on a Kobo by default has a clock that counts in seconds on the X desktop, so one refresh per second, but it still lasts a few days on a charge. That's nowhere near as long as if the screen had not been refreshing every second of course, but the power cost of each refresh is not huge.

Re: Yes

[dbIII]

Before GPS I remember a long discussion with six other very experienced hikers as to where exactly we were, and seven different opinions as to what the location was :)

Re: Yes

[dbIII]

Yes, but try that in actual sunlight :(
Eink doesn't fit every situation but it does have a niche.

Re: Yes

[Bartles]

Yep, the it's better to look at a frontlit screen for hours on end niche.

Re: Yes

[dbIII]

Eink is way, way, overpriced and keeping themselves out of markets due to greed, but what can you do? Hardware costs are very low. Licensing not so much.

Re: Yes

[Nethead]

Yes, and that's what made hiking fun! (As long as you didn't have to wait for the local SAR to find you.) But see, you still remember that day. But if you had all just whipped out your iThings and looked down and stared at them... opps, that's getting into bear porn now.

Re: Yes

[arglebargle_xiv]

What is the difference between reflected light?

One of its legs is both the same.

Re: Yes

[gordguide]

As someone who used paper maps and compasses daily in the wilderness for more than a decade, I can assure you they most definitely tell you where you are, as well as provide all the information you need to determine all the features a GPS offers (such as how to get where you want to go from where you are), except the exact time of day.

Well, OK, the clued-in would also have a straight edge and a pencil or pen. Yes, you can get ones that write on a wet paper map. Which you won't need, since you were clued in enough to paint your paper maps with Thompson's Water Seal, which waterproofs them for a full season in the elements in the really worn parts (the seams you fold the map at) and for years in the least worn parts (the map portion not on a folded seam) before you need to re-apply it, and readily takes pencil and pen marks.

What you meant to say, perhaps, is a GPS can display a map to someone who has no clue how to actually use a map, and as a bonus, tell them where they are.

Re: Yes

[gordguide]

For clarity, I should have added to my post (quoted below) that I do use a GPS today for what I formerly used paper maps and associated tools (compass, straightedge, marker) on land and water; plus while piloting VFR aircraft we are now or were until recently (depending on the jurisdiction) required to carry paper maps and cannot legally rely on a GPS, although it is (now) legal to mount one in the cockpit (it was prohibited for a long time after GPS units became affordable; thus only "portable" [handheld] GPS's were sold with aviation-specific software).

A GPS is easier than paper maps in most ways, but maps still have the advantage when it comes to displaying the area you find yourself in, which in itself is an aid to navigation.

As someone who used paper maps and compasses daily in the wilderness for more than a decade, I can assure you they most definitely tell you where you are, as well as provide all the information you need to determine all the features a GPS offers (such as how to get where you want to go from where you are), except the exact time of day.

Well, OK, the clued-in would also have a straight edge and a pencil or pen. Yes, you can get ones that write on a wet paper map. Which you won't need, since you were clued in enough to paint your paper maps with Thompson's Water Seal, which waterproofs them for a full season in the elements in the really worn parts (the seams you fold the map at) and for years in the least worn parts (the map portion not on a folded seam) before you need to re-apply it, and readily takes pencil and pen marks.

What you meant to say, perhaps, is a GPS can display a map to someone who has no clue how to actually use a map, and as a bonus, tell them where they are.

Re: Yes

[slashping]

As someone who used paper maps and compasses daily in the wilderness for more than a decade, I can assure you they most definitely tell you where you are

I assume you've never been in the middle of the ocean with a paper map and a compass ?

Re: Yes

[KGIII]

;-)

Hmm... Find a spot where you can see. Find two objects on the map that you can see. Shoot azimuth. Triangulate. Tada! There you are. I'm not articulate enough to describe it in text. It's really not hard. Maps are meant to be written on. You want a compass that has a funny looking cover in it. This cover has a wire that runs down through a "sighting hole" which has a name but I forget it. That will show you, very accurately, the azimuth. Plot and draw the line and where the lines intersect, there you are. Now you know where you are, go somewhere. Make sure you mark where you go. When you get to the next spot, make sure you check - again - to see if you're on your route.

It's not hard. It really isn't. Give me an afternoon and I'll show you and then I'll have us dropped off in the woods, with the appropriate maps, and you can navigate us back to my house.

Re: Yes

[suutar]

TLDR: A map doesn't tell you where you are; a map helps you figure it out yourself.

Many people will (have, in fact) disagree with this, but I think they are conflating two (or three) different things.

Someone skilled with a map can use it to track their location over time. Someone skilled with a map can identify visible landmarks and thereby determine their current location. But a GPS doesn't help the user determine their location, it determines the location itself and hands over the result. Not the same process (for the user) at all.

Yes it's too much

[ickleberry]

I could build a decent PC for that and it will last me years, the Android reader will probably stop getting updates after a year or two and then become a paperweight

Re:Yes it's too much

[Ecuador]

I could build a decent PC for that and it will last me years, the Android reader will probably stop getting updates after a year or two and then become a paperweight

Wow, that completely misses the point of e-readers.

Anyway, me and my wife use e-ink (Kindle) readers for a few years now and love them, but she needs to read a lot of pdfs as well, so she uses a 9" tablet for those. She'd love it if she could have a big e-ink display and she'd gladly pay a premium, but $699 is a bit too much, we had actually discussed it a few months ago and she asked me if there was something up to $400. Of course she was thinking about 9-10", but still, $699 is a lot for a reader. I assume thought that this will get funded, since they are only asking for 60 people to sign up...

Re:Yes it's too much

[AmiMoJo]

A better comparison would be the large format eReaders that Brother used to make. Maybe 8 years ago when epaper was brand new, Brother produced an A4 format device for business use. Cost about $500 as I recall. Probably only ever sold in Japan.

So based on the fact that that device was cheaper 8 years ago and failed in the market place, I'd say this is overpriced. The low volume is probably the reason why.

Re:Yes it's too much

[thegarbz]

Android reader will probably stop getting updates after a year or two and then become a paperweight

That's funny because Slashdot is advocating staying with a 7 year old operating system and forgoing updates on very desktop PCs you are talking about.
So why does your Android device suddenly stop working if you don't install an update again?

Re:Yes it's too much

[arth1]

Wow, that completely misses the point of e-readers.

So does 13.3".
E-readers are replacement for paperback books. Small enough that you can keep one in your jacket pocket (or purse, if so inclined), and hold one-handed, even if not strong and healthy.

I have the first Nook-e-reader, which I didn't use as much as I could have, because it wasn't very ergonomic. My Palm (remember those?) saw a lot more book reading use. And so did books.

Re:Yes it's too much

[slashping]

So why does your Android device suddenly stop working if you don't install an update again?

You may have a well known security problem which is only fixed in newer versions.

Re:Yes it's too much

[PolygamousRanchKid]

What does Betteridge's law of headlines say . . . ?

But is it 3D printed, and can you buy it with Bitcoins, and is it MDsolar powered, or powered by nukes . . . ?

Correlation is not causation!

I have been reading Slashdot too long.

Re:Yes it's too much

[turbidostato]

"I have been reading Slashdot too long."

In Soviet Russia Slashdot reads you for too long!

Re:Yes it's too much

[Dunbal]

Take your desktop to the toilet so you can read while you shit, I dare you.

Re:Yes it's too much

[thegarbz]

Oh noes, someone will get at my books!

Speaking of aren't those same people not running windows 10 also not running windows update?

Quite frankly the security concerns for a device calling itself an e-reader are somewhat overblown.

Re: Yes it's too much

[Type44Q]

Wow, that completely misses the point of e-readers.

That certainly settles it, then; clearly no one would want a larger one. Ever.

Re:Yes it's too much

[slashping]

It's not an e-reader, it's an Android tablet with an e-ink display.

Re: Yes it's too much

[mwvdlee]

I'm sure there are a few people who'd like a 0.2" e-reader.
But, like a 13.3" e-reader, the market may be too small to make it a viable (and thus actively supported) product.

Re:Yes it's too much

[sumdumass]

And I miss the hot grits. .. or was it Natalie Portman? Btw, can I subscribe to someone's newsletter.

Re:Yes it's too much

[naughtynaughty]

"The Brother SV-100B will land in Japan on June 1st, priced at $1,450"

What you recall isn't always a fact.

http://www.slashgear.com/broth...

Re:Yes it's too much

[thegarbz]

with an e-ink display

Which is inherently limiting.

Re:Yes it's too much

[golgotha007]

In Soviet Russia a naked and petrified Natalie Portman pours hot grits down YOU!

Re:Yes it's too much

[slashping]

If you have enough time to read while you sit, you should eat more fiber.

Re:Yes it's too much

[chihowa]

E-readers are replacement for paperback books.

That's a little myopic. E-readers could serve many purposes and there is definitely a market for more than just replacing paperbacks.

I'd love to be able to read all of my scientific papers on an e-ink display instead of printing (and carrying) reams of paper or having the weight, low battery life, and transmissive screens inherent in tablets and laptops. Many students would love to replace all of the textbooks that they lug around with a lightweight, battery-sipping e-reader. These uses would greatly benefit from a letter/A4 sized screen as they have fixed layouts.

Re:Yes it's too much

[arbiter1]

here is what 700$ got me, Dell 15 inch laptop with gtx960m and a core i7 6700HQ.

Re:Yes it's too much

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

I would also love to get a letter-sized e-reader for PDF datasheets.

Re:Yes it's too much

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Stop eating fiber you idiot! You're the reason I keep losing my internet connec54#@%$#@A~_NO CARRIER

Re:Yes it's too much

[Nate the greatest]

Son'y device was marked down, and now sells for $800. And another similar model is up for pre-order.

Re:Yes it's too much

[Ecuador]

Wow, that completely misses the point of e-readers.

So does 13.3".

Well, no, I wouldn't say that. It definitely is not a replacement of a regular e-reader, you just can't beat a 6" e-reader for convenience when reading e-books, but it is about the size of a printed page so it would be an excellent PDF reader and would fit your briefcase, messenger bag etc wherever a stack of A4 papers would go. So while I think a 9-10" device would be more convenient even as a PDF reader, I can see how a 13.3" would still be useful. As long as you get to keep your 6" $100 e-reader for when you don't need to read pdfs or cbrs...

Re:Yes it's too much

[slashping]

Not limiting enough that you couldn't lose money to a hacker. For instance, it could spend money in the google play store without your permission.

Re:Yes it's too much

[jordanjay29]

Sure it is. It just doesn't necessarily have to be true. Fact != truth.

Re:Yes it's too much

[jordanjay29]

Actually, it looks to be a rebranding of the Onyx readers, and one fitting the exact bill (9.7", ~$400 price range) you mentioned is already available" at their store.

Re:Yes it's too much

[AmiMoJo]

Good find. They must have slashed the price because I remember considering one for about 50,000 yen.

Re:Yes it's too much

[bemymonkey]

You can't have it both ways - either you use a smart operating system like Android and open yourself up to vulnerabilities as soon as the manufacturer stops supporting it, or you use something dumb(er) that'll last for a looooong time - like what's on the traditional Kindle devices.

As for PDFs... high-res, full-color backlit seems much more useful. It's not like tablets have problems with battery life these days.

Re:Yes it's too much

[Solandri]

There are reading applications where you want bigger images and a lot more space than a paperback book page. A 13.3" e-ink display would be a wonderful alternative the huge stack of music books I have next to my piano.

Re:Yes it's too much

[samwichse]

I work in science, you insensitive clod.

The 13.3" diagonal on this thing puts it at the same size as journal page. I would love to have this to read journal articles as my current options are: print everything out (best for me, super wasteful), read them on a computer monitor, or squint a bit at a smallish backlit LCD tablet.

Re:Yes it's too much

[Anne Thwacks]

eink is also brilliant for reading data sheets and schematics, but 7" for schematics? Arrrghhh!

13" sounds good to me! But what I want is 23".

Obviously not for $699 - this is supposed to be cheap technology!

Re:Yes it's too much

[angel'o'sphere]

But:
It does not run Android.
It has no eInk display, so reading stuff at the beach is out of question.
Its battery lasts ... 2h? ... so reading stuff at the beach is out of the question.

Re:Yes it's too much

[KGIII]

I'd like something in the 19" to 24" range. I want to be able to mount it on its side and have it backlit with variable lighting. I want it to sit on a stand both vertically and horizontally. I want to be able to put two texts side-by-side on it when it is in horizontal mode. I want it to set securely in its stand and be easy to take with me - with a hard case. I'm fully aware of the size it would be. I'm also cognizant of the weight factor. If someone wants to build them, let me know. I'll probably take ten. No, I am not kidding. I have some other things that I want with it and some rules. That's basically it, however.

Re:Yes it's too much

[KGIII]

Nice. I am not alone. I want 19 - 24" as I said above. I want to be able to split view in horizontal mode. I want a stand and a hard case - ruggedized is preferred. I don't want it to have fancy shit. I don't need WiFi with it but that's fine. I'd rather just hook it to USB and treat it like a dumb USB file share, mounted as an EXT4 file system. I don't need or want bluetooth. I don't need a cellular connection nor do I need a web browser but one might be cool if done right - then throw in WiFi of course. I might even take one up to 30" honestly. It'd get mounted vertically next to my monitor. It needs to be backlit. It should handle vector graphics well and zooming. In split view, I need to be able to scroll up and down on either side and have it change only one book at a time. It needs to remember where it was opened and support bookmarks and notes - notes in a few ways would be good - including being able to edit them on the computer and push the edits back to the device.

I'll buy ten. Two for me, two for backups, and the rest as gifts. I might even go with 16. Make them 30" and I'll pay $1200 for it. I expect quality, longevity, replaceable batteries, and some level of ability to repair it. Open source is preferred but not a requirement - if it works well. It should probably have a decent API and extension ecosystem so that others can add to it. They might be more creative than I and I might want to use their extensions without needing to use a whole new ROM. Yeah, I'll buy 10 to start with. Let me know before you get it built and I'll give you what input I have, if you want. I can probably sell them out at $1400 to $1600. I know where the market is for these. It's definitely an untapped market, I'm not sure how much it's worth but if you make something like that available for me, I'll buy it and I know a hell of a lot of others who will buy it too.

If you can make it stand up well in fairly rough environments then it's even better. Input should be with stylus, finger, though I guess being able to plug a keyboard in would work. I don't want bluetooth but it might work - it's gonna eat battery though. I'd make that optional and make sure to make a version without it. I can see it in places like retail, academia, factories, automotive repair shops, etc... Someone mentioned GPS earlier. GPS (it sits in a halter most of the time) and you've given UPS a new toy to aspire to. There are all sorts of ways to use something like this, if it's well done.

Hell, if someone really knows what they're doing and has some idea and history with it and wants some capital to get a business started... Well, no... Actually, I just might - depending on who the person was. There's some smart people here. Here's your million dollar idea (or more). You need startup costs. I've done similar things for friends but not with this. Maybe I should put this out to some of my friends? I think I will. If something comes through, should I let you know? If you find anything, my email is available.

Re:Yes it's too much

[KGIII]

Then don't install it with the Play Store to begin with. Tada! (Seriously, I wouldn't want it - somebody else might but I'd not want it in there nor would I want any of the Google Play Services.) Why have 'em? It's an e-ink device. 'Snot like I'm gonna game on it.

Re:Yes it's too much

[KGIII]

I am hot grits, you insensitive clod!

Re:Yes it's too much

[dbIII]

Not just for paperbacks. I have a ten inch Boox that is very good at displaying full page documents if I put it in landscape mode and look at half a page at a time. It's also very good for displaying web pages that have a lot of text while the small ones are not very good for that situation. A huge device would work for that as well, for work or for comic/manga fans, but not really for portable casual reading. I have a pocket Kobo for casual reading in situations where lugging around a bag is annoying.

Re:Yes it's too much

[dbIII]

The Boox almost gets there since you can turn it's 10 inch screen sideways and look at half of a page at a time in landscape mode.

Re:Yes it's too much

[dbIII]

Speaking of aren't those same people not running windows 10 also not running windows update?

The upgrade update can be disabled and there are choices other than fully automatic update as well.

Dislike of Win10 aside, when the software that the computer was purchased to run will not start on Win10 that's a compelling reason not to upgrade.

Re:Yes it's too much

[dbIII]

Yes - not a device to play movies on. Just as limiting as a screen you can't use in direct sunlight if that's where you want to use it.
Right tool for the job and all that.

Re:Yes it's too much

[Hognoxious]

I'd like a 12" mini laptop with a flippable display - normal on one side, eInk on the other.

Re:Yes it's too much

[PolygamousRanchKid]

In Soviet Russia a naked and petrified Natalie Portman pours hot grits down YOU!

"Nudes for Nerds . . ."

Re:Yes it's too much

[KGIII]

I could have sworn someone announced a device that had e-ink display (outside - I think?) and a color display inside - like a clamshell laptop. I seem to recall that there was a second flap that opened and revealed an e-ink display when the device was closed. I just did a search and I'll be buggered if I can find it. :/ It might have only been a concept but I thought it was announced at the CES show back in the late 2000s.

Re:Yes it's too much

[david_thornley]

In my experience, those publications tend to have diagrams, which turn out badly with eInk. (You may be reading different sorts of papers, or have less trouble with eInk diagrams.) I have two eReader use cases: fiction and light non-fiction, which generally come in ePub (or something easily convertible), which I read on my Nook, and PDFs, which I read on a cheap Android tablet with a large screen.

Android 4? Really?

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

You lost me at Android 4.04. Ice Cream Sandwich was released in 2011.

Best,

Already (nearly) exists?

[fluffydemon]

Onyn Boox Max

Re:Already (nearly) exists?

[jordanjay29]

It's likely a rebranding and a small discount for a bulk rate (the guy in the video says they need 60).

Yes way too much

[technomom]

For that price I can pick up 12 Fire tablets and just rotate between them when the batteries go.

Re:Yes way too much

[K. S. Kyosuke]

That's 3.7 kg, though. Wouldn't a battery bank be more lightweight?

No color

[slashping]

13 inches is nice for reading PDFs and technical documentation, but for a lot of those documents you need full color. So I'd rather get a regular tablet.

Re:No color

[Luthair]

Yea, I was pretty surprised that at this price it wasn't even a colour e-ink.

Re:No color

[SNRatio]

Bingo. PDFs of scientific journals and other technical literature: can't shrink to a smaller screen because the subscripts/superscripts are already tiny and they matter , also can't shrink it because ideally you want to be able to read it while it is sitting on your desk, not holding it a foot from your face. You also can't set it to just display 1/2 page because then you are constantly switching views to see both halves of a figure or graph. Plus while black and white photocopies are the traditional way to read scientific lit, these days so much information is displayed via color (especially in biology), going without is a dealbreaker. For $700-ish: buy a 12-13" laptop with 1080p or better resolution, maybe a convertible.

Re: No color

[GrantRobertson]

Came here to say exactly the same thing. I would buy it in a heartbeat if it was color. Even crappy 4096 colors color. And I am definitely NOT one of those fat-wallet early adopters. I have just been waiting for exactly this, in color, for years.

I don't read paperbacks. I read scientific papers. So the large screen would be a godsend. Also, a lot of technical books have many diagrams that you really need at least some color, a large screen, and decent resolution to interpret correctly. It would be such a luxury to be able to look at a diagram and read the accompanying text AT THE SAME TIME.

Re:No color

[ceoyoyo]

Hm.... My favourite way to read scientific literature is on a first gen iPad mini, preferably with my feet up on something. I generally read portrait, full page width, but if it's something with lots of sub-subscripts I might go landscape.

Re:No color

[SNRatio]

iPad was really the first device that does it well. But a convertible laptop works well and is more versatile for other tasks.

Re:No color

[ceoyoyo]

I used to use a full size iPad (1, then later 2) to do it. I thought the larger screen was essential. It's not. I won the mini at a conference and when I started using it I went back.

I certainly have a notebook, but I read papers almost exclusively on the iPad mini. It's light and easy to hold. A convertible notebook isn't the same.

Re:No color

[dbIII]

Colour eink is disappointing in released products, sort of like old newsprint if you can remember. The JetBook Color has it if you are looking for videos of what it looks like. The JetBook Color is actually far more impressive when showing something without colour since it has a very high resolution for the size (1600x1200). If it didn't have slooooow WinCE on it (which makes it not very useful with some PDFs) the device would be impressive for B&W, but it disappoints with colour.

Re: No color

[dbIII]

Colour on these things is currently very pale, not bright like the emitted light from LCDs. Think of old newsprint. So while manufactures have ticked the box marked colour it's not something that's going to appeal to many people. Graphs with red and blue lines are going to be that, faintly, but not enough to stand out and work as intended.

Too much?

[c]

It could be argued that $700 might be too little for a small production run unless they've found a way to really, really cut corners. I suspect they'll have to take an existing 13.3" tablet design (with all the case tooling, logic boards, etc already available) and just change out the display with no other hardware modifications and more or less no requirement for software QA. If that's the strategy, then the fact that it ships with Android 4.0.4 would imply it's several generations old hardware... In which case, $700 actually might be ridiculously overpriced on the buyer side of the equation.

Re: Too much?

[ZFox]

They can't cut corners. If they did they would run afoul of Apple's design patent.

Re:Too much?

[dbIII]

In which case, $700 actually might be ridiculously overpriced on the buyer side of the equation.

Sadly that's E-ink for you - licensing costs and the level of tight control seems counterproductive.

The link is not to the supplier but to someone crowdfunding to get a bulk order via Alibaba or something. The product is from Onyx Boox and is a larger model of an existing product line.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[thegarbz]

And what functionality is it missing for an e-reader?

Re:Flagrant Spam?

[Dunbal]

You're probably the only one reading the summary and article, yes.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[Luthair]

Basically what AC said, they're bragging about access to the Google Play store & millions of apps, but with an API that old its pretty hard to see it.

Hell YES it's too much

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

For $700 I could buy 3 full-featured Android tablets and have money left over for a cheap not-so-full-featured tablet.

Seriously, $700 for an e-reader? If you're going to buy one of these, spend that money on an MRI instead to find out what kind of brain injury you have.

Re:Hell YES it's too much

[naughtynaughty]

There you have it, nobody needs anything more than a smaller, heavy, power hungry color Android tablet.

Re:Hell YES it's too much

[Anonymous Coward]

For $700 I could buy 3 full-featured Android tablets and have money left over for a cheap not-so-full-featured tablet.

Seriously, $700 for an e-reader? If you're going to buy one of these, spend that money on an MRI instead to find out what kind of brain injury you have.

"JustAnotherOldGuy", but not old enough to have vision or eyestrain issues yet apparently. LOL

E-ink is worth the money until the quacks find a way to replace eyeballs for less than $700. Now get off my lawn, kid.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[OolimPhon]

It's an e-reader.

You aren't going to be loading apps on it, you're going to be loading documents like .pdfs or .epubs.

If you want something that can run apps, buy a tablet!

WAY too much

[FudRucker]

go buy an android tablet and install FBreader https://fbreader.org/ FREE FOSS

Niche Product

[Stephen Chadfield]

As this is such a niche product - I certainly have no interest in it - I guess the price is okay for whoever really needs such a device.

I am still content with my old Kobo touch. The battery life is still okay and it is in great condition considering I take it to work with me every day. If it broke I would almost certainly replace it with a newer Kobo model as I have got such great value from my current one.

Re:Niche Product

[dbIII]

The downside with the small devices only really hits when there are illustrations or diagrams in the text or if what you want to read is a PDF. I started reading Greg Egan's "The Clockwork Rocket" on a Kobo but then switched to the Kobo app on an android device when I found it had a few diagrams that looked like blurred postage stamps on the Kobo. Similarly with things like "Roughing It" by Mark Twain with illustrations.
That's why I have a small device to carry around (Kobo Pocket) and a larger one to lug around on occasion.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

What functionality is it missing?

Um....security updates? Bug fixes? Someone else mentioned access to Google Play...etc.

There's no way I'd buy a NEW device running a 5 year old Android...even if it was 1/2 or 1/3 of the price discussed.

large eink screens

[slazzy]

I'd love to see some large, low cost eink displays come on the market. Imagine a 20" eink calendar on your wall? Awesome!

Re:large eink screens

[jordanjay29]

That's actually a good idea. A monitor-sized eInk screen that would need refreshing only once an hour or so (even a refresh every minute would be more power saving than any current monitor technology), but with the ability to respond when you need to pull up more detailed information. I do wish some companies would recognize eInk's viability for kiosk displays like that.

Re:large eink screens

[dbIII]

They recognised the viability years ago but the patent holders decided they would try to make a killing and priced themselves out of the market. No e-ink monitor for us as a consequence of that.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[Luthair]

Don't look at me, they're the ones claiming millions of apps.

Paper-sized paper to read and write on

[Blaskowicz]

I would think one obvious application for tablet-like computers is to be able to write on hundreds of virtual sheets and recall them, be it notes, essays, whatever. Most people have spent one or two decades in school doing just that on paper. It's fairly ridiculous to sit there with so many gigahertzes and gigabytes, but unable to just take a pen and write because there's no paper sheet around and then, what to do with the paper? can't put it in /home/$user/Documents, email it to yourself, save it to a NAS, scp it to a host.

The only issue is you would need two of the things, one for reference material and one for writing (or reading your own notes, or reading something hard while trying to make sense of it from the other material). While low priority, some software support for that will be useful (sharing of context and documents between two units)

One suggestion : most everyone with this will also have a desktop or laptop and some will be old fashion fucks so please have a full size SD slot and provide a USB to SD stick-adapter in the package. Or a long USB cable for once - have both long and short. (with wifi, people might be using a hotspot so there's no easy networking between the PC and the tablet thing)

On the wish list : this kind of hardware is one more reason we need an "Android LTS" sort of OS (or an OS that piggybacks on Android linux kernel + proprietary drivers like FirefoxOS and Ubuntu Phone do/did). Don't care if it's frozen to the stone age but getting 10 years of updates just for the security flaws, encryption protocols etc. like you do on Windows or a few other ones would be fine.
Afterall, for $700 you could buy a desk, some other furniture and stuff to store and organize a lot of paper, as well as considerable writing supplies. That would last for decades. But if all that stuff were electronic it would be more mobile, shareable, safe from fire, vandalism, eviction etc.
Last note : can't be really done without a version 2.0 model but such a tablet would be most impressive with extremely low pen input latency.
Also, for fun it would be interesting to be able to render previously entered notes/drawings with varying thickness or brush effects.

Re:Paper-sized paper to read and write on

[KGIII]

There's no place like ~/!

Re:Paper-sized paper to read and write on

[dbIII]

It turns out this one (it's an Onyx Boox) has something like that and calls it OnyxScribbler, and the previous model has an SD card slot (not sure about this one).

Yes

[MPAB]

It's a shame e-reader development suffered death by tablet. Paperback sized ones are extremely cheap but seldom work as readers for anything else. I got myself a a Samsung Galaxy Pro 8 inch in order to read technical and medical books, but I know an e-ink version would be lighter, with more battery time and easier on the eyes.

OEM hardware is step 1: they will fail.

[mveloso]

Just because you get hardware from an OEM doesn't mean it's ready for production. Most likely the software on it, well, sucks, and needs to be brought to a level of functionality that people accept.

95% of the time the OEM will just build the OS and see if it works. It's up to you, the vendor, to ensure that the OS and whatever else there is works the way it's supposed to. That includes updating, performance, power management, UI, drivers, correct build options, etc. You have to test to make sure that everything works, that everything works the way it's supposed to, and works the way that you want it to.

Getting a box from the OEM is only one step in a long process.

If they're only covering the hardware cost, this project will fail like that cooler/blender thing. I mean, just shipping from the US to everyone will cost at least $20-25. Did they even factor that in? How about, you know, a box and documentation? That's another $15-30/device. What about power cords and adapters?

TL;DR: There's a huge amount of work needed once you actually get the hardware, because the software probably will suck. They didn't account for that, and the project will fail.

There is one already, by Sony, 800$

[Kartu]

13.3", 800$ price tag, built by Sony (that, sadly, quit 6-9" e-reader market thati has actually pioneered)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/...

Re:There is one already, by Sony, 800$

[hvdh]

That Sony model was mentioned in the second link. It can only display PDF, nothing else.

Re:There is one already, by Sony, 800$

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

hvdh: It's perfect to datasheets though.
Kartu: Thank you for the link.

Re:There is one already, by Sony, 800$

[Nate the greatest]

I've got a similar 13" ereader. I really don't think it's any good for reflowable formats. A device that size is less an ereader than it is a document display tool, if that makes any sense.

Solution already exists (almost)

[Anonymous Coward]

This is silly. For $100 dollars more, you can already get the SONY DPT-S1, which is a digital steno pad.

https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-DPTS1/

I use this device daily, for hours a day. It is perhaps one of the best hardware devices I have ever bought. The v1.5 firmware is a significant improvement over v1.3, including the ability to rectangle select and drag reposition/cut/copy/paste, although the software overall is still SONY braindead (often laughably so). It badly needs to be jailbroken. It can only read PDFs, but I hacked together some tools to convert DJVU with metadata into PDF with metadata, so it covers almost all of my use cases. The battery life is excellent, though SONY exaggerates it: at 6hr/day use it lasts me about 3-4 days inbetween charges, which take about 1-2 hours at outlet levels. The device is unusable when connected to a computer: it enters HD mode (like old versions of Android, which it is indeed running, some sort of API around 8) and cannot be made to leave HD mode. Attempting to twiddle bits on the /sysfs side can *almost* free it while keeping juice flowing, but not quite.

The origin of the high price for this device seems to be the eInk Mobius 13.3" flexible screen. I worked hard to find something cheaper, including having my friend in Taiwan (who is fluent in Mandarin) call the factories making these things and get a price. It was around $550, when sold in naked form to OEMs. So SONY really isn't charging anything unreasonable here (much to my surprise). I do know there are competitor products in the pipeline already, you might want to look around for progress on these.

Like I said, the biggest downside to the SONY device is that they try to keep a lock on a key on it. There were rumors of a guy in Mainland China would root them. This required sending the physical device to him, and paying in addition. Altogether, it sounded like an idiotic scam.

Specialty items ...

[MacTO]

Personally I wouldn't, but I understand why people would pay a steep price for such a device (having spent nearly $200 on a 6.8" device myself). While most tablets are fine for most readers, e-Ink is better at handling most lighting conditions while e-readers tend to place much more emphasis on battery life. Things like the screen refresh rate does present a major drawback. Yet the inability to scroll through a page effectively is a big part of the reason why certain people are demanding a larger screen.

At the end of the day, this ability to handle certain corner-cases better while being less useful as a general purpose device will make it a niche product. That will drive up the price. This is realistic. The people who pay that much are sane. If you want to question the price of items, perhaps it is best to look towards rebranded mass produced devices.

Holy overpriced batman!

[Lumpy]

If you want a large E-reader buy a used Kindle DX. they work great and are massively cheaper.

Re:Holy overpriced batman!

[Bite The Pillow]

In 2009, new, the DX was $240 for 9.7 inches. With a few additional features, I wouldn't pay more than $300 for a large screen.

More space than I need, plays audio, has 3g if you're into that. The page turn is slower than I'd like, but 7 years of tech research should pay for that. I'm keeping mine till I break it.

It struggles with complex PDFs, but that's just code. Only 2 had problems. Image only or magazine layout display fine.

Re:Holy overpriced batman!

[Lumpy]

Complex PDF's can be fixed. I use linux PDF tools to strip out the useless background images on a lot of gaming PDF's so that my DX views them nicely. Side effect, those Gaming PDF's now are 1/3rd the size with all the useless art gone.

It's a Flex campaign

[SkOink]

That means that the lister will get the money even if it doesn't hit its funding goals. Shouldn't that be incompatible with the video's statement that they need to hit a certain minimum order quanity?

I would love to own a 13" eink reader, but this has scam written all over it.

Its not like you don't have a choice

[future assassin]

and are forced to purchase it. So what if someone wan's to pay $1000 for that tablet.

Sony has a 13.3" reader

[Anonymous Coward]

that's been out for a couple years, but is over $1000:

http://anandtech.com/show/9860/sony-digital-paper-system-dpts1-review

I like the idea but it's too expensive for me. Also I'd rather just run a plain Debian system than a crapware container like Android.

They are selling the Netronix device

[ziliac]

Please don't be fooled. This crowd funding campaign is merely selling a pre-made, year-old device from Netronix. See here: http://armdevices.net/2015/01/... http://blog.the-ebook-reader.c... http://goodereader.com/blog/el...

Here's the Netronix e-reader they are selling

[ziliac]

They did NOT manufacture this device! Netronix did: http://www.netronixinc.com/pro...

Re:Android 4? Really?

[squiggleslash]

Google put a lot of effort into future revisions reducing memory and power usage, both of which I'd say are important for an e-reader.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[jordanjay29]

Maybe I want to run the Nook or Kindle app so I don't have to carry two devices to read my books? There are also comic book apps and newspaper apps, there's plenty of good print content that an e-reader could take advantage of through the Google Play store.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[Robotech_Master]

It's going to be open-source, and letting people who buy it upgrade to a later version of Android is explicitly given as a reason for that on the Indiegogo page.

In any event, for the kinds of simple e-reading tasks the device is meant for, 4.0.4 should still run pretty much any e-reading app on the market. With only 4 GB of internal storage and a slow-updating e-ink screen, it's not really meant to be a media tablet.

Limited Market

[khelms]

For text only books, I find a regular 5/6" Kindle works fine and is comfortable to use for hours. I can set the font size to whatever I find easy to read.

For books with graphics or color, I use a 10" Android tablet. The battery life is good enough for a couple of days use.

I don't see how this product could fill more than a small niche. There are other tablets that you can draw on. How many people need a device that has such a large screen but only renders in gray scale with no color?

Re:Limited Market

[xvan]

All the academy community still stuck on A4 pdf papers. Though, eventually, they'll have to migrate to a reflowable format.

Not with those specs.

[jtownatpunk.net]

Needs to be color and higher PPI. If I'm going to carry a device dedicated to a single purpose, it needs to blow my multi-purpose devices out of the water. My 10.5" tablet has an OLED display at 287 ppi. Color content looks amazing. It's like I'm holding a [slightly small] printed magazine. The text is sharp and crisp, the photos rich and vibrant. For plain text, I use white text on a black background which looks great on an OLED display. Because of the way OLED works, this greatly reduces the amount of emitted light compared to a backlit LCD display. I do most of my text reading on my phone at 518 ppi, also an OLED display. It's almost as big as a small dedicated reader but it's not an extra device I have to carry around just for the purpose of reading. I always have my phone with me.

I've had eink readers but they've always been a couple steps behind what I wanted. Small, low-contrast, low-resolution screens. They're much better now but they're no longer the only game in town for handheld reading.

$699 too much?

[JustNiz]

Waaay too expensive for what it is.
At that price it would definitely need to be color E-Ink before I seriously considered it, but even then I'd still think it was priced at a premium.

Re:$699 too much?

[dbIII]

If you'd seen the state of colour e-ink I doubt you or anyone else desiring colour would still seriously consider it. Since there's no backlight and for a variety of other reasons it looks like faded newsprint.
Also eink IS priced at a premium, the licensing costs appear to be insane, pricing it out of a lot of markets and creating a situation where only major players getting a bulk deal (eg. Amazon) and those hanging on in tiny niches can operate. Check out the price of e-ink displays that work with the raspberry pi for an example of how insane it is.

Re:Android 4? Really?

[dbIII]

Since it's got bluetooth for keyboards and you can even download vim for the thing not a lot.
I don't know what the ACs are going on about because my current smaller Boox has access to download android applications and this looks like the same environment.

Try a bit more than a guess

[dbIII]

Following the links above it's the new larger model of the existing Onyx Boox ereaders with the same software as the smaller model (which I have and use daily) and apart from the larger screen very similar hardware.

Re:WAY too much

[dbIII]

From looking up what this really is (Onyx Boox) it already has FBreader on it without having to download it.
The "WAY too much" bit comes from having an e-ink screen. Sucks but that's the way the patent holders have licensed it.

Maybe if it is color e-ink

[rhyous]

If it is just black and white, the answer would be maybe for a very small niche (which just might be enough for his crowdfunding campaign).

If it were color e-Ink, then it would be quite worth it.

Wait a minute...

[Puppet Master]

Isn't $699 what SCO was charging for a Linux license? Something smells rotten in Denmark.