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Pfizer Blocks The Use Of Its Drugs In Executions

HughPickens.com writes: Erik Eckholm reports in the NYT that the pharmaceutical giant Pfizer has announced that it has imposed sweeping controls on the distribution of its products to ensure that none are used in lethal injections, a step that closes off the last remaining open-market source of drugs used in executions. "Pfizer makes its products to enhance and save the lives of the patients we serve," the company says, and "strongly objects to the use of its products as lethal injections for capital punishment." "With Pfizer's announcement, all F.D.A.-approved manufacturers of any potential execution drug have now blocked their sale for this purpose," says Maya Foa. "Executing states must now go underground if they want to get hold of medicines for use in lethal injection." The mounting difficulty in obtaining lethal drugs has already caused states to furtively scramble for supplies. Some states have used straw buyers or tried to import drugs from abroad that are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration, only to see them seized by federal agents. Other states have experimented with new drug combinations, sometimes with disastrous results, such as the prolonged execution of Joseph Wood in Arizona in 2014, using the sedative midazolam. A few states have adopted the electric chair, firing squad or gas chamber as an alternative if lethal drugs are not available. Since Utah chooses to have a death penalty, "we have to have a means of carrying it out," said State Representative Paul Ray as he argued last year for authorization of the firing squad.

566 comments

  1. Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just switch to nitrogen asphyxiation if you want a humane execution which isn't dependent upon strapping the condemned down to a table, having to have a non-professional put an IV in, trouble getting drugs, etc...

    The supplies can be had at any welding shop for not much money.

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    1. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They don't want humane executions, they want the condemned to suffer and writhe around in pain.

    2. Re:Let me be the first to say by Brett+Buck · · Score: 0

      1 round of 38 Special is pretty effective and cheap.

    3. Re:Let me be the first to say by Vrallis · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Unfortunately that would never happen. I'm sure it would be the usual setup of a physician ensuring the location of the heart is marked as a target, multiple people firing, probably with a couple pointless blanks (shooters can tell the difference, hence pointless). A single shot to the head would be too reminiscent of executions by dictators and terrorists.

      While I'm perfectly fine with execution when there is absolute proof of guilt there are too many people on death row under falsified evidence or just plain shit law enforcement or legal work. Right now incarceration for life is cheaper anyway.

    4. Re:Let me be the first to say by axewolf · · Score: 1

      Isn't that just giving people the bends in the most extreme way possible? Essentially causing the sensation of burning fire in every corner of their insides?

    5. Re:Let me be the first to say by DaHat · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it would be the usual setup of a physician ensuring the location of the heart is marked as a target,

      Why the heart? The ribs can do a pretty good job of deflecting a bullet away from it's original path, your brain however (despite being surrounded by bone) is a far better target... though does tend to prevent an open casket wake/funeral.

    6. Re:Let me be the first to say by Sir+Holo · · Score: 0

      Just switch to nitrogen asphyxiation if you want a humane execution which isn't dependent upon strapping the condemned down to a table, having to have a non-professional put an IV in, trouble getting drugs, etc...

      Have you ever seen a mammal die of Displacement Asphyxiation (via nitrogen, argon, or anything else inert and devoid of oxygen)?

      It takes a minute or two at the least. And the suffoccee will gasp ferociously while tearing at their throat during before unconsciousness ensues. It is a horror show.

      Sure, a few kids have sat themselves inside downed helium-filled weather-balloons, and have died. By the time they get done laughing at the change in the pitch of their voice, they are alive, but their brains have switched off. It's all autonomic reactions from there – and they are not pretty.

      No matter your view on capital punishment (pro or con), a death with such a dramatic behavior will scar those who see it – whether they are victims' relatives, or relatives of the decedent. If my child were the executed, I would ask why it is that I have to suffer for having given birth to a person who inherited genes for a sociopathic schizophrenia.

    7. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      No.

      See, in most people, the breathing reflex is triggered by the presence of carbon dioxide - not the absence of oxygen. You could walk into a room containing pure nitrogen, breathe away, and feel just fine - right up until you collapse because of a lack of oxygen (in fact, you'd stop breathing reflexively, because your carbon dioxide levels would fall too low for the reflex to kick in). The same thing would happen with pure helium, pure argon, pure sulphur hexafluoride, etc. Any gas that is inert to the human body will work for this purpose (which rules out chlorine, fluorine, and other reactive gases.)

      This isn't about forcing nitrogen into the body at high pressure (which is what happens as a precursor to the bends). This is about displacing the oxygen in a way that the body doesn't pick up on - it'd be like the executed victim just falls asleep and never wakes up.

    8. Re:Let me be the first to say by Imrik · · Score: 0, Troll

      They don't actually care if the subject is in pain, they just want the appearance of them being in pain.

    9. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the bends is when you get nitrogen bubbles from first absorbing nitrogen at one pressure, then redusing the pressure. Nitrogen is the largest component gas in air.

    10. Re:Let me be the first to say by PPH · · Score: 1

      Shoot straight you bastards. Don't make a mess of it.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    11. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're all a bunch of fucking idiots.

    12. Re:Let me be the first to say by Imrik · · Score: 1

      No, with nitrogen asphyxiation you replace the oxygen with nitrogen and the subject just passes out then dies from lack of oxygen. There's not even the sensation of choking to death that you'd get with CO2.

      The bends is caused by pressure differentials causing bubbles to form inside the bloodstream or other bodily fluids.

    13. Re:Let me be the first to say by compro01 · · Score: 1

      No. Bends is caused by a rapid reduction in pressure, hence its proper name, decompression sickness.

      Nitrogen asphyxiation wouldn't involve any such pressure change, as it would involve a normal air pressure chamber, just without enough oxygen.

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    14. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      You have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about.

    15. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Couple problems with what you said. First, the bends is caused by N2 'bubbling' out of solution in the blood due to a drop in pressure - at higher pressures more N2 will dissolve into water, and therefore blood. That's why you need to pause when rising from sufficient depth.

      Keep the pressure the same, no N2 bubbling will take place, and therefore no bends.

      Second, As the AC said, humans detect CO2 levels, not O2 levels. So what happens is that CO2 AND O2 will both tend to diffuse out of the blood - CO2 dissolves out and O2 in during normal respiration because O2 levels in the air are higher than in the blood, and CO2 levels are lower.

      Introduce a mix that's about 0% of both and both will dissolve out. Because CO2 levels never rise, you never feel out of breadth or anything. O2 levels leave so quickly that you lose consciousness very quickly. You'd last longer holding your breadth, but part of what I'd do is hit the person up with some Valium to keep them calm, and not tell them the precise time of the execution so they don't know when the switch is made.

      Perhaps have some warmed oil type incense so the condemned can't tell by smell changes or anything. You have to avoid burning incense because it'd go out with the switch.

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    16. Re:Let me be the first to say by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You know there's a youtube video called how to kill a human being where the pro death penalty guy is against nitrogen asphyxiation because it literally isn't gruesome enough.

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    17. Re:Let me be the first to say by Imrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without the appearance of pain, the execution doesn't satisfy the desire for revenge, which is the driving motive behind the death penalty.

    18. Re:Let me be the first to say by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This isn't about forcing nitrogen into the body at high pressure

      That would cause nitrogen narcosis, which would actually be a pleasurable way to die. I have felt it a bit when doing deep scuba dives, and it was a nice feeling. I have heard it compared to cocaine. Fortunately, I was still sober enough to start heading up before I did something stupid enough to kill myself.

    19. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shooting through the brainstem is hypothesized to be a painless way to execute someone. I believe it was used in some war crimes during WW2.

    20. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, let me say that the state should never have the power to kill legally because they obviously fuck that up constantly and kill innocent people.

      But... killing people is not that difficult.

      Morphine... I have a hard time believing it's patented in any way or difficult to obtain.

      Failing that, evidence lockers are full of heroine. I know from eye witness experience that that kills without suffering (it's OK-- I called 911 and she recovered).

      What is the problem?

      Why not just choke people out? I've been choked out (though not fatally obviously). It's like a hug, then things go dark. After unconsciousness, there is no suffering.

      But first and foremost, the state should not have the legal mechanism to kill people.

      Alcohol gastric tubes or enemas would work too. Ether? CO? This is a very strange problem to have.

      (captcha efficacy)

    21. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. Revenge one of the reasons that the death penalty is so childish and stupid. The second being that the people involved in the execution become no better than the person that they were murdering.

    22. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluelip · · Score: 1

      Save even more money. Just shoot them.

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    23. Re:Let me be the first to say by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      If my child were the executed, I would ask why it is that I have to suffer for having given birth to a person who inherited genes for a sociopathic schizophrenia.

      You could always not go. But from the perspective of the family of the victim, if they want someone to be killed, I don't see why they should be shielded from the consequences. Trying to cover up brutality by making it seem clinical just makes it more insidious.

      Saudi Arabia-style public beheadings are honest compared to what the United States does.

      --
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    24. Re:Let me be the first to say by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      It takes a minute or two at the least. And the suffoccee will gasp ferociously while tearing at their throat during before unconsciousness ensues. It is a horror show.

      This is wrong. Inert gas asphyxiation is quick and painless. The victim usually does not even detect that anything is wrong before losing consciousness. There is no sensation of suffocation because there is no CO2 buildup in the blood.

    25. Re:Let me be the first to say by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just switch to nitrogen asphyxiation if you want a humane execution

      Oklahoma has already legalized N2 asphyxiation as a backup to lethal injection. Oklahoma Governor Mary Fallin signed it into law last year. In other news, Mary Fallin is supposedly on Donald Trump's short list for VP.

    26. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      > Have you ever seen a mammal die of Displacement Asphyxiation (via nitrogen, argon, or anything else inert and devoid of oxygen)?

      Yes, in fact, I have. I've seen a human die of anoxia while diving with a rebreather.

      > It takes a minute or two at the least. And the suffoccee will gasp ferociously while tearing at their throat during before unconsciousness ensues. It is a horror show.

      This is patently untrue. CO2 buildup will cause the reactions you are describing- but not inert gas asphyxiation. Please provide a source your claims.

    27. Re:Let me be the first to say by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

      Your argument is simply stupid given the components of a lethal cocktail. The two first injections are given exactly for the opposite purpose you claim. Induce a paralysis state and decontract the subject sentenced to death. This is so, because the third injection is the actual lethal one and is actually very painful inducing a cardiac arrest.

      Btw, just in case you don't know about it, in countries where medically assisted suicide is legal, this is about the same cocktail they administer to patients. No one actually knows if the patient suffer or not, they simply know he/she is unable to manifest any suffering.

      --
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    28. Re:Let me be the first to say by plopez · · Score: 1

      Breaker Morant

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    29. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eeeeew. There would be blood. And the noise! So cruel!

      I prefer something nice and clean such as injecting a variety of untested chemicals for several minutes.

    30. Re:Let me be the first to say by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Just to be certain, nuke them from orbit.

      --
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    31. Re:Let me be the first to say by Malc · · Score: 2

      Perfect finale to 20+ years of psychological torture on death row.

    32. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just let them moderate Slashdot for a day then.

    33. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 round of 38 Special is pretty effective and cheap.

      40 feet of rope is cheaper still and can be re-used many times. Cheap, reliable and effective at minimal cost with no possible argument of being "cruel and unusual" since hanging was been among the most common forms of capital punishment for centuries now in many countries both past and present. Hardly unusual and no more cruel than any other common method.

    34. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or just strap them to a rocket. It's cheaper without the nuke.

    35. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 0, Troll

      I can't believe people think like you. Well i can but i just don't understand how they haven't killed themselves already from other stupid and illogical thinking.

      Murdering someone is the unjustified taking of their life. An execution or even self defense killing only shares the taking of life portion. In other words the difference between an execution and murder is whether or not it was justified. It certainly does not turn executioners into murderers.

      And before you argue about justify, the state determines that. With a big and powerful government, you don't get that ability to define justified. You only get the ability to protest their definitions.

    36. Re:Let me be the first to say by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is one reason why advocates of the death penalty tend to reject the use of nitrogen. They want to see the condemned suffer at least a little - if the condemned dies happily, then people will feel justice has not been done.

      Remember, people are basically bastards. Often 'justice' is just a polite veneer for 'collective revenge.' This person has made the group suffer, so the books can not be set straight until the same has been done to him.

    37. Re:Let me be the first to say by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When completely deprived of oxygen, loss of consciousness occurs within about 12 seconds, and death after about a minute. This is why the safety briefing aboard airliners says in the event of cabin depressurization you should put your oxygen mask on first, then your child's. If you try to put your child's mask on first, you'll likely go unconscious before you can get around to putting yours on.

      It really is the perfect way to painlessly kill someone. Which I suspect is why it's not covered more by the media (a huge majority of whom are against the death penalty). A large part of the opposition to the death penalty is based on potential suffering of the prisoner. Presented with a guaranteed way to avoid that suffering, that opposition evaporates.

      Disclaimer: I don't have a moral problem with a death penalty in certain cases, but I do not believe our current legal system is accurate enough to justify the use of death as a punishment. IMHO its irreversible nature disqualifies it from use in a justice system which has been proven to be error-prone.

    38. Re:Let me be the first to say by eneville · · Score: 0

      So killing Hitler is as bad as being Hitler then?

    39. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just argued that Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Un did nothing wrong.

      When "I am the law" a matter of fact, all killings that person does or orders are legal and thus by your definition justified.

    40. Re:Let me be the first to say by eneville · · Score: 1

      It isn't a perfect and reproducible method. Often the hangman gets things wrong and the condemned has a lengthy death. Second thoughts, it is perfect.

    41. Re:Let me be the first to say by eneville · · Score: 2

      Take away his knowledge of /when/ it will happen. Death row with PRNG selection.

    42. Re:Let me be the first to say by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Being a murderer isn't as bad as being a mass murderer, but it's still bad.

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    43. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A large part of the opposition to the death penalty is based on potential suffering of the prisoner.

      The opposition ought to be based on the perfect justice system not having been invented yet. Killing an innocent man is what a murderer does.

    44. Re:Let me be the first to say by Weirsbaski · · Score: 1

      And the suffoccee will gasp ferociously while tearing at their throat during before unconsciousness ensues. It is a horror show.

      Ironically, this doesn't happen but if it did then the "tough on crime" croud would probably embrace nitrogen asphyxiation. I couldn't say how many times I've heard them say that "we should torture/brutalize/sodomize/etc criminals", as if inflicting as much pain as possible before executing them will somehow right the wrongs they did.

      --

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    45. Re:Let me be the first to say by dave420 · · Score: 0

      The executioners are killing someone who poses no threat to them. The executioner isn't simply defending themselves. Your logic is infantile.

    46. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humane executions do not exist, by definition. Murdering people is never humane.

    47. Re:Let me be the first to say by dave420 · · Score: 0

      There is a large difference between someone choosing to be put out of their misery and the state killing someone for some sense of vengeance. If you can't see that, then I weep for you.

    48. Re:Let me be the first to say by Kokuyo · · Score: 0

      Depends. If you come across him before he gets the killing machine rolling full tilt and you have the chance to kill him but not many other options, then no, killing him is not bad.

      If you have him in custody and at your mercy and you start thinking about how you can make his execution a bit more painful yet then yes, you're in a similar territory.

      I could even argue that the Nazis were, usually, more "humane" than that because they optimized their gas chambers for efficiency, not maximum suffering. In my opinion, the gas chambers are not the main reason the Nazis were monsters. The work camps are much worse in my not so humble opinion and in that regard, the Nazis are hardly unique.

    49. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your opinion is fucking stupid. Slave labour and a hideous array of cruelties were integral to extermination camps such as Auschwitz, and death was integral to forced labour camps such as Ravensbruck. The gas chambers were designed for mass killing, but cruel mass killing. Go read The Last of the Just and visit Yad Vashem

    50. Re:Let me be the first to say by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      No, nitrogen narcosis requires a partial pressure of nitrogen of around 3 atmospheres, so you need a pressurized room. Decompression sickness (the bends) happens when ascending, as the saturation pressure of nitrogen is exceeded.

      Only challenge with nitrogen asphyxiation is warming it up enough where it remains humane... But I am sure that is still cheaper than lethal injection.

    51. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

      Why the need to kill them early? Leave them in prison until dead. Same result, except for the death penalty causing an early and painful death, purely for revenge. They are not shown to decrease crime,

    52. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The paralytic is because they know the person is suffering, and would thrash/object if they could. An N2 OD is more painless. Asphyxia without high CO2 is surprisingly painless and simple. Morphine OD is a common assisted suicide method. Take off the caps on morphine, and let the person self-medicate to death. Most "assisted suicide" are just that. They help/allow suicide. What you are talking about is legalized euthanasia, which is different.

    53. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

      Because CO2 levels never rise, you never feel out of breadth or anything.

      Sure you will. As you metabolize the O2 already in your blood, you'll build up CO2 in your lungs. As you die, the time to build up enough CO2 to generate the "need air" reflex will increase, but it will still build up, however slowly, until you are dead.

    54. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The supporters of the death penalty want the suffering as well, thus, both sides are against inert gas. Both want the suffering. One to watch the suffering, and the other to complain about it.

    55. Re:Let me be the first to say by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      I can't believe people think like you. Well i can but i just don't understand how they haven't killed themselves already from other stupid and illogical thinking.

      Murdering someone is the unjustified taking of their life. An execution or even self defense killing only shares the taking of life portion. In other words the difference between an execution and murder is whether or not it was justified. It certainly does not turn executioners into murderers.

      And before you argue about justify, the state determines that. With a big and powerful government, you don't get that ability to define justified. You only get the ability to protest their definitions.

      You can put whatever terms to it you want. Execution and murder are two different things, evidenced by the fact they came up with different names for them but what they both share in common is the intentional taking of another persons life. The executioner isn't a murderer but they are most definitely killers regardless of who's authorisation or justification they have.

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    56. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely just the knowledge that it /will/ happen provides enough mental torture that they've experienced the requisite suffering regardless of the execution method.

    57. Re:Let me be the first to say by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

      Your argument is simply stupid given the components of a lethal cocktail. The two first injections are given exactly for the opposite purpose you claim. Induce a paralysis state and decontract the subject sentenced to death. This is so, because the third injection is the actual lethal one and is actually very painful inducing a cardiac arrest.

      I never understood why not give them a big ol' dose of smack? I'm sure they have plenty of heroin in evidence rooms all over. They know what the lethal dosage is and can ensure they give double whatever it is. Shoot them up and send them on their way.

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    58. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd last longer holding your breadth, but part of what I'd do is hit the person up with some Valium to keep them calm, and not tell them the precise time of the execution so they don't know when the switch is made.

      Valium which Pfizer won't sell you. ;)

      Holding their breath won't matter at all. They can't do so for more than a minute or so, so even if they delay it by doing that it'll still be effective and it won't be any less humane.

    59. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even if it were completely painless I would still have a problem with the death penalty: there is no judicial system on earth that is completely error-free, so such a system will kill innocent people. Give them life without parole by all means: at least that way the punishment can be abandoned if it is discovered there had been a miscarriage of justice.

    60. Re:Let me be the first to say by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Save even more money. Just shoot them.

      Fuck that, take them to a cliff and give them a push. You don't even have to worry about what to do with the body.

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    61. Re:Let me be the first to say by michelcolman · · Score: 2, Funny

      The death penalty has clearly been demonstrated to reduce recidivism.

    62. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only difference between murder and execution is that the murderers ordering and performing an execution feel the need to whitewash their deeds by calling it an execution. It is framing; no more, no less.

    63. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      Not at all. Not all killing is murder. Please follow along. The state decides what is just killing and what is murder. If you think the state is wrong, change it by either a democratic process, force, or depose the state and insert your own authority which is what happened with Saddam.

    64. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Your ability to understand logic is worse. I never said the executioner was defending himself, i only listed self defense as another example. I said the executioner was killing someone but it was not murder because the state defines murder and excludes his acts.

    65. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I do not disagree with this. Revenge, deterrent, or perhaps society just deemed them no longer safe to be in society even if locked in a cell. I'm not against the death penalty but I'm not advocating for it either. I might have a different opinion if someone killed somebody close to me but as of now, I could do with or without it.

      If making them suffer was a motivation, I would imagine life in prison under harsh conditions would be better than killing them and putting them out of their misery.

    66. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Have you ever seen a mammal die of Displacement Asphyxiation (via nitrogen, argon, or anything else inert and devoid of oxygen)?

      Seen humans die from it, lab accident. You have to be careful about nitrogen, it's sneaky.

      And yes, death can take a while. Brain death will take some time. The trick is that you're unconscious within a few breaths.

      It takes a minute or two at the least. And the suffoccee will gasp ferociously while tearing at their throat during before unconsciousness ensues. It is a horror show.

      Are you sure that you didn't witness a case of CO2 asphyxiation? That's where you get the symptoms you describe. You must absolutely avoid CO2, as that's what the human body detects. For that matter, N2 asphyxiation doesn't work with most burrowing animals - they often have a working O2 level detection system.

      https://archive.org/details/go...

      No matter your view on capital punishment (pro or con), a death with such a dramatic behavior will scar those who see it

      What dramatic behavior? They go unconscious almost immediately, and there are no dramatic moments like clutching for the throat - Look up hypoxia sometime.

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    67. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I'd be careful about painting 'all' supporters of the death penalty with that brush, because I support the death penalty(in limited circumstances) but want nitrogen asphyxiation to be an option.

      And yes, quite a bit of the suffering from the death penalty is the fault of the anti-death penalty people, who want it to be as barbaric as possible so they can get it banned. If it's too clean they can't do that.

      --
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    68. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      But apart from the pros and cons of the actual death penalty (which I won't get into), if society has determined that someone has to die, why not make something useful out of it? Let the convicted choose from a "menu" of useful ways to die.

      - Help science cure a deadly disease (they'll actually give you the disease and then see if they can cure you)
      - Research the mechanics of dieing
      - Serve as a crash test dummy
      - Get blown up as a special effect in a movie

      The possibilities are endless! Maybe they can even throw in some money for your next of kin.

    69. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Sure you will. As you metabolize the O2 already in your blood, you'll build up CO2 in your lungs. As you die, the time to build up enough CO2 to generate the "need air" reflex will increase, but it will still build up, however slowly, until you are dead.

      Unless you're holding your breath, a pure N2 feed is going to have CO2 levels as negligible as O2, so you'll be purging the CO2 in your blood right along with the O2. Thus, you'll never get the 'need air' reflex because CO2 drops as well.

      --
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    70. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Thank you. That is more clear and to the point I was trying to make. They are only the same in killing someone. Not in the terms to describe the act of killing them. Both are not good but one is worse than the other.

    71. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      No, it increases recidivism. Yes, I know that the dead person won't offend again, but it doesn't decrease crime, and may actually increase serious crime, because if you are up for the death penalty, you might as well go out with a bang.

    72. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Cleanup costs are even more expensive. And we've gotten the 'manual of arms' for execution by firearm complicated enough that it's not really cheaper.

      Plus, well, messy body with blood splatter. You want to splatter possibly HIV positive blood around?

      I'd just put them in a relatively airtight room. In normal mode, the cell gets outside air pumped in through an array of filters. You have a glade plug-in or something in the air system to provide some smell.

      When the time comes, switch over to the N2 bottle, the glade plug-in covers any change in smell that might happen, and the prisoner doesn't know the time of the switch, so can't hold his breath. Hyperventilating will actually speed the process along. Done.

      I'll note that I'm examining this in a very technical way - not debating or considering the merits of the penalty itself at the moment, merely the technical challenges presented in carrying it out.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    73. Re:Let me be the first to say by EzInKy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not all killing is murder. Please follow along. The state decides what is just killing and what is murder.

      The same goes for stealing. The states decides which of your earning is theirs, and which of your earnings is yours.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    74. Re: Let me be the first to say by BurningFeetMan · · Score: 1

      I would like to subscribe.

    75. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      A generalization doesn't mean "all". But your take is quite rare. Most supporters of the death penalty want to use it as much as possible. Go read the posts here. I've seen more than one person indicate they would like to see it used against *everyone* caught selling drugs (often a quite minor crime), and other crimes one may think minor.

    76. Re:Let me be the first to say by cc1984_ · · Score: 1

      There's a video of this on Horizon:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    77. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that can't be right. I can hold my breath for a minute, let alone 12 seconds, without passing out.

    78. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So, as long as you are breathing, you'll not need to breathe. That's an illogical catch 22. If you breathe a little too slow, you'll get the urge.

    79. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      though does tend to prevent an open casket wake/funeral.

      You say that as if its a bad thing.

    80. Re:Let me be the first to say by michelcolman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So what you're saying is basically:

      - The death penalty increases recidivism
      - OK, maybe technically, recidivism is actually impossible
      - But: according to some alternative definition of recidivism which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual word, it does increase recidivism!

      I was going to just write "woosh", but apparently you did get the joke (as evidenced by the "yes, I know" part) yet still want to insist I'm wrong. Strange.

    81. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      While I'm perfectly fine with execution when there is absolute proof of guilt there are too many people on death row under falsified evidence or just plain shit law enforcement or legal work. Right now incarceration for life is cheaper anyway.

      That's really weak and logically inconsistent.

      Why is it OK to lock someone up for life "under falsified evidence or just plain shit law enforcement or legal work" but not execute him?

      Because it "is cheaper"?

      Let me guess - you think that because you can't "unexecute" someone.

      Well, guess what? If you lock someone up unjustly for 10 years, then set him free, you can't give him those 10 years spent not being free back either.

      So please don't use logically fallacious arguments like "there are too many people on death row under falsified evidence or just plain shit law enforcement or legal work" to argue against execution as a punishment. That argument applies equally to ALL forms of state-sanctioned violence and punishment from the lowest fines for jaywalking all the way up to execution.

    82. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't want humane executions, they want the condemned to suffer and writhe around in pain.

      That and the States want a clean execution so that attendees are presented with something clinical, pure. Something you can morally accept. Bring back the electric chair or the firing squad and people (even those that support the death penalty) will begin to question the barbarity of those methods.

    83. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      The same "urge" is the one that keeps us alive throughout our lives. It's not a painful or panicking event, like excessive CO2 buildup from trying to hold your breadth or breathing high co2 air will cause.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    84. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      Blocked in the USA, sadly. I think I've seen the video though.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    85. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Why is it then that the states are willing to break the law (and have) in order to get grey market prescription only drugs in order to use their cocktail rather than using nitrogen gas? Just abject stupidity?

    86. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without the appearance of pain, the execution doesn't satisfy the desire for revenge, which is the driving motive behind the death penalty.

      +100000
      Dealth penalty has nothing to do with justice. It's revenge pure and simple. Institutional revenge.

    87. Re:Let me be the first to say by jandersen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know there's a youtube video called how to kill a human being where the pro death penalty guy is against nitrogen asphyxiation because it literally isn't gruesome enough.

      Exactly - to all appearances, the American penal system is not primarily about justice or rehabilitation, but revenge and control. I don't remember how many times I have heard that "jail isn't supposed to be a holiday, it is supposed to feel like punishment". This fails to take into account several things - firstly that punishment to effective as a means of correcting behaviour must be accepted by the person punished as being reasonable and fair. Vindictive punishment causes resentment, which counteract any beneficial effect it might have had.

      Secondly, many offenders don't have a lot of education or self-esteem, and they may not realise that they could lead a much better life if they learned to do the right things. I think most young offenders fall into this category - they don't wat to be criminals, drug addicts, violent or anything like that, but all they have learned tells them that they are worthless. They haven't done well in school, perhaps because the teachers are crap, perhaps because their home environment doesn't support learning; what hope do they have? Crime can seem so easy in that situation. And then we punish them vindictively, which confirms that they are worthless to society, and that they might as well carry on - at least it feels a little like getting back at a smug and overbearing society.

      America is supposed to be one of the most religiously devoted countries in the developed world, but there seems to be little evidence of a willingness to forgive and get the best out of people. Perhaps this is because "religious" means "believing in holy scriptures rather than havingreal faith"; whatever the case may be, it is shameful.

    88. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Some people are basically bastards. Don't let them off the hook by claiming everyone is.

    89. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, my opposition wouldn't evaporate. I object on the basis that our courts get it wrong too often and there is no way to even begin to compensate the wrongly convicted if we kill them.

    90. Re:Let me be the first to say by Imrik · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't know that the death penalty significantly reduces recidivism when compared to life in prison.

    91. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I never claimed it was. You are arguing that your misinterpretation of what I never said could be construed as wrong. Take a deep breath, and try reading the thread again. What did I say that was so objectionable that you needed to argue about it?

    92. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to learn the difference between outright armed robbery and collecting service fees at gunpoint.

    93. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You know there's a youtube video called how to kill a human being where the pro death penalty guy is against nitrogen asphyxiation because it literally isn't gruesome enough.

      Exactly - to all appearances, the American penal system is not primarily about justice or rehabilitation, but revenge and control.

      It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty. Just like the police do not come until a crime is happening, or after the fact, a disincentive can not be given until someone is judged guilty by a jury of their peers.

      The police are not there to save you from a crime, they are there to clean up after the fact. The penal system is not enacting it's penalties with an aim to rehabilitate e.g. Jeffrey Dahmer, it's enacting its penalties to stop the next Jeffrey Dahmer from eating his first victim.

    94. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I expect their victims would want the person who was murdering them to suffer a painful death, you may not care about the suffering of VICTIMS, only that of murderers... What does that say about you?

    95. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you actually believe this? If you've ever read an account of lethal injection you'd see how incredibly wrong you are. Apparently watching lethal injection is about as gratifying as watching a person go to sleep, because that's exactly what it is. The first drug puts the person to sleep, the second paralyzes them and the third stops their heart. If the appearance of pain is desired, the method they use is horrible for achieving that goal.

    96. Re:Let me be the first to say by Rob+Lister · · Score: 2
    97. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And what's wrong with that? Have you ever lost somebody you love? Imagine what it's like if somebody you love is murdered by some smirking scumbag, who knows that nothing is going to happen to them - no pain, no discomfort, just a life in a holiday camp, no need to work, and then a painless death. It's completely natural to want revenge against somebody who kills somebody you love, what sort of reaction do you think we should have? Turn the other cheek? You're insane.

      But there is a VERY simple solution, and just thinking about this will prove to you that you are wrong:
      Everybody registers with the government whether they are in favour of, or against, the death penalty.
      Then split the country into two parts. In one part, you have the death penalty, by the electric chair. In the other, you don't have the death penalty.
      Guess which side all of the violent criminals would immediately move to. Guess which side would be the worst place to live. Guess what percentage of the population would choose to live on the side with the death penalty.

      But since you can't even THINK this through properly, you are incapable of having a rational discussion...

    98. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a large difference between someone choosing to be put out of their misery and the state killing someone for some sense of vengeance.

      I have to say:

      Someone who commits a crime for which the penalty is death has chosen to be put out of their misery. It's suicide by state, and in many ways is no different than suicide by cop or suicide by jumping in front of a BART train.

    99. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Disclaimer: I don't have a moral problem with a death penalty in certain cases, but I do not believe our current legal system is accurate enough to justify the use of death as a punishment. IMHO its irreversible nature disqualifies it from use in a justice system which has been proven to be error-prone."

      Agreed. Granted I don't feel jail should be about punishment but rehabilitation. I feel the only way the death penalty is warranted is if the person proves themselves irredeemable. Something like they're in prison already and while in prison they kill somebody or something similarly heinous. It's for when a person proves themselves to be nothing but a drag on society with no hope of ever changing, you kill them not as a punishment to them, but for the safety of others.

    100. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Why is it then that the states are willing to break the law (and have) in order to get grey market prescription only drugs in order to use their cocktail rather than using nitrogen gas? Just abject stupidity?

      Any form of execution, if it has not been used before, or has not been used in a long time, violates the "unusual" portion of the "cruel and unusual" clause of the Eighth amendment:

      "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted."

      One of the primary mechanisms utilized by death penalty opponents in many states is to get a moratorium declared on death penalty enforcement for long enough that the death penalty itself will be deemed "unusual". Of course, this has not been a success strategy so far, but hop springs eternal among those who believe even serial killers are somehow redeemable.

    101. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 1

      While I'm perfectly fine with execution when there is absolute proof of guilt there are too many people on death row under falsified evidence or just plain shit law enforcement or legal work.

      The purpose of execution, or even incarceration, or simple fines, is as a negative reinforcement for the behaviour for which the prisoner on whom the penalty is being enacted was found guilty.

      Negative societal disincentives work, regardless of whether or not the person on whom the penalty is being enacted is actually guilty.

      In a meta sense, it kind of doesn't even matter if they are guilty or not, since the purpose is neither rehabilitation nor vengeance; the purpose is social order.

    102. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and? I'm having a hard time building up any sympathy here.

    103. Re:Let me be the first to say by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps this is because "religious" means "believing in holy scriptures rather than havingreal faith"; whatever the case may be, it is shameful.

      Virtually everyone who is religious uses it as a rubber stamp, and as an excuse for their shit behavior. Real faith is about as common as good behavior.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    104. Re:Let me be the first to say by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Not all killing is murder.

      Yes, only the premeditated kind. Like the death penalty.

      Whether they admit it or not, everyone who is on a Jury which finds someone guilty when the penalty is death, and every prosecutor who pushes for the death penalty, is a murderer, as well as the people who push the button, set up the injection or what have you. There's no other word which fits.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    105. Re:Let me be the first to say by Kiuas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The penal system is not enacting it's penalties with an aim to rehabilitate e.g. Jeffrey Dahmer, it's enacting its penalties to stop the next Jeffrey Dahmer from eating his first victim.

      This is a giant strawman. The vast majority of criminals are not Jeffrey Dahlmer and are not serving a life sentence. This means that for MOST inmates the prison system is there to rehabilitate them to society.

      No-one's arguing that there aren't mentally unstable individuals who cannot be released and so on, but tehabilitation and making sure the inmates, once released, do not commit crimes again is the primary focus of any sane penal system. If you look at actual data and charts on reconviction rates you'll note they go up as the length of the sentence goes up. This means the more time the inmate spends in jail, the higher the chance of them committing a crime again is. The US is not the only country where this happens, but if time spent in jail increases instead of decreases the chances of a re-conviction, it ought to be clear that the system is faulty.

      Compare that to something like Norway which has one of the 'softest' prison systems and has no life imprisonment (technically, although with people like Brevik it's unlikely he will ever be let free, as they have to pass an assessment before release or the sentence can be continued, and even if he's ever released he'll probably be released into a mental institution) and has incredibly humane conditions (that is it allows for the inmates to live fairly normal lives within controlled conditions), the re-conviction rates are far lower because it turns out if you treat prisoners as people instead of cattle to be kept in small boxes and the released after several years with limited rights and next to no employment options, they actually for the most part turn out to become productive members of society.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    106. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop shilling for the prison corporations

    107. Re:Let me be the first to say by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      So killing Hitler is as bad as being Hitler then?

      If you can stop him without killing him, yes. Otherwise, no. Fire away. The only time violence is justified is when it will prevent more violence. The problem is figuring out when that is. As an act of self-defense counts, though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    108. Re:Let me be the first to say by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A large part of the opposition to the death penalty is based on potential suffering of the prisoner.

      That's one part, yes. The other part is that the death penalty is murder, and I am not a willing murderer. By killing people in my name, the state makes me that. Well, at least, it did up until 2006. California decided it was unconstitutional to murder prisoners then.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    109. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 1, Troll

      The penal system is not enacting it's penalties with an aim to rehabilitate e.g. Jeffrey Dahmer, it's enacting its penalties to stop the next Jeffrey Dahmer from eating his first victim.

      This is a giant strawman. The vast majority of criminals are not Jeffrey Dahlmer and are not serving a life sentence.

      Luckily, we are talking about the death penalty. None of the criminals on death row are serving a life sentence, either: they are serving a death sentence and awaiting execution.

      This means that for MOST inmates the prison system is there to rehabilitate them to society.

      No. It is there so that they can visibly be penalized for their crimes, to the benefit of society as a whole. They serve as negative examples.

      We kind of don't give a rats ass about what does or does not happen after they have served their sentence. They can choose to avail themselves of what resources are available (generally, support up through a bachelor's degree), so that they have some chance of coping once they are released. Or they can choose not to do so.

      If you look at actual data and charts on reconviction rates you'll note they go up as the length of the sentence goes up.

      Correlation is not causation.

      Perhaps people who are given longer penalties are more prone to commit crimes, thus deserving those longer penalties. In other words: it's the person who causes their own recidivism, and not the length of time they spend in prison on prior convictions.

      The numbers you supplied do not account for that.

    110. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Then how did the modern drugs get used at all. I'm pretty sure they didn't use KCl and barbiturates in the old west.

      Personally I oppose it because our courts haven't proven reliable enough to impose an irreversible penalty. There have been posthumous exonerations.

    111. Re:Let me be the first to say by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      You can put whatever terms to it you want. Execution and murder are two different things, evidenced by the fact they came up with different names for them

      So, if a Blade Runner "retires" someone or some henchmen "snuffs" someone, that is also something different because it has a different name?

      Look up euphemism. When someone claims that things are different just because of their names, someone is usually trying to BS you into something.

      --
      bickerdyke
    112. Re:Let me be the first to say by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The problem with gassing people to death is that gasses are hard to control. Typical control systems involve a room with valves that allow has to be pumped in and later removed, which require maintenance and careful operation. You also need some monitoring equipment in there so you can tell when the victim is dead, which has to be set up correctly etc.

      It's all possible to do, but it's not much easier than other methods and still prone to error when the operators are basically idiots. As is often the case, it's when theory meets practice that things start to go wrong.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    113. Re:Let me be the first to say by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Irrespective of the death penalty in principle, you should not be executing people with your courts' track record. The bias of juries and judges is fucking insane. You are highly likely to be executing someone who had fuck all to do with the crime in question.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    114. Re:Let me be the first to say by Kiuas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. It is there so that they can visibly be penalized for their crimes, to the benefit of society as a whole. They serve as negative examples.

      That as well, but also the point is to try and make sure they do not do those things again. If you're going to say it doesn't make a difference whether the reconvition rate is 15 % or 99 % then I don't really understand how you deem society benefits from high reconviction. It's obviously better the lower the re-conviction rates are, both for the inmate as well as for the socíety, so to argue that rehabilitation is not an important function of the system makes no sense to me.

      Perhaps people who are given longer penalties are more prone to commit crimes, thus deserving those longer penalties. In other words: it's the person who causes their own recidivism, and not the length of time they spend in prison on prior convictions.

      The numbers you supplied do not account for that.

      They do not account for that yes, that's one thing that surely factors into it as well, I should have pointed this out in my post, my bad.

      Still point being: prisoners released from the US system have significantly worse outlook than their western counterparts as the felony conviction pretty much makes it impossible to get employment, and in some states even blocks access to housing etc. If you keep people who're already violent/dangerous when they come in in rather inhumane conditions, then you release them with even less of a chance of making a living legally than before they went in, it should not come as a surprise that most of these people turn back to crime. Ex-inmates are societal outcasts, which make them a ripe target for organized crime tor recruit.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    115. Re:Let me be the first to say by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Someone who commits a crime for which the penalty is death has chosen to be put out of their misery. It's suicide by state, and in many ways is no different than suicide by cop or suicide by jumping in front of a BART train.

      So, no-one ever commited a crime not knowing they were in a death penalty state, or similar? Really?

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    116. Re:Let me be the first to say by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately that would never happen. I'm sure it would be the usual setup of a physician ensuring the location of the heart is marked as a target, multiple people firing, probably with a couple pointless blanks (shooters can tell the difference, hence pointless).

      Better way would be a chair with an adjustable-height barrel that can be moved to line up with the base of the skull and loaded with a .22. The prisoner is strapped down and the dive has 2 modes of firing that are activated at the same time: a button for the condemned to trigger himself or a timer(randomized or not) if the prisoner cannot do it themselves. This way no guard has to flip a switch or pull a trigger, death should be instantaneous, and it should be fairly clean. The use of a .22 means the bullet is cheap but it also should have enough force to sever the spinal column but not penetrate through the front of the head (would of course need testing to confirm this). I am pro-death penalty but as a form of punishment, not deterrent, and I feel that the end result, not the method, should be the punishment. IE, loss of right to life as opposed to making the end of that life as painful as possible. In that sense, "old fashioned" methods of execution such as firing squad, hanging, and beheading are actually best in that they are, if done correctly, swift and relatively painless-at most a few seconds in the case of firing squads and beheading, instant in the case of hanging.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    117. Re:Let me be the first to say by Maritz · · Score: 1

      People don't wanna see these guys go out with a smile on their face. That's for damn sure. ;)

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    118. Re:Let me be the first to say by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Most countries allow some sort of parole or release even on a life sentence.

      Here in Belgium, "life" means "30 years" and you can get out after half that time on good behavior.

      In the US, it depends on the state. Many allow parole after 15 years.

    119. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that what you tell yourself so you can sleep at night?

    120. Re:Let me be the first to say by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      you're talking about america. people would queue if given the chance to press the electrocute button.

      if i could pick how to be executed, my friend (A&E nurse) tells me insulin injection and subsequent hypoglycemic shock is as peaceful a way to go as it gets. i'm also pretty sure it allows for organ harvest which i'd definitely want.

    121. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds reasonable to me. When execution is truly necessary - I.e. for someone like a sociopathic killer. IMO, death should be inflicted only because allowing the person to live is simply too dangerous to the general public. Just like you must euthanize a rabies infected dog. Not because you hate the dog. Or even want to punish the dog. It's just to dangerous to allow it to live. And I don't go with "life sentence with no possibility of parole" because, quite honestly, I don't want to pay for such a person's food, clothes, housing, etc for however many years. I guess that's selfish of me. Too bad.

    122. Re:Let me be the first to say by Aruta · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Why the need to kill them early? Leave them in prison until dead. Same result, except for the death penalty causing an early and painful death, purely for revenge. They are not shown to decrease crime,

      Well, the difference is that, in prison, they are a drain on the taxes. Decent people work all their life to survive, yet criminals get all they need. What's more, exactly the same people who oppose death penalty are also very likely to make a fuss about prisoner's rights. Make criminals work for their upkeep, and make them work hard. If they don't, let them suffer and starve like normal people do when they don't work. And refuse them any benefits which would apply to non-convicts. They have thrown away their rights the moment they commited a crime. It's not about revenge. It's about punishment and deterrent, with minimum cost to the society.

      --
      This universe shipped by weight, not by volume. Some expansion of the contents may have occurred during shipment.
    123. Re:Let me be the first to say by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I don't know that the death penalty significantly reduces recidivism when compared to life in prison.

      Recidivism: is one of the most fundamental concepts in criminal justice. It refers to a person's relapse into criminal behavior, often after the person receives sanctions or undergoes intervention for a previous crime. Recidivism

      When your fucking dead, your not going to do it again; this ain't no zombie apocalypse movie we're talking about. If your in prison for life, there is always the chance that you'll kill our maim one of your fellow prisoners or a corrections officer. The death penalty is about a crime being considered so heinous that society will not tolerate any chance of recidivism.

      The only problem I have with the death penalty is they let people too stupid to get out of jury duty decide guilty or non-guilt. If you can prove your innocence you can at least get out if your still alive, but dead is dead.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    124. Re:Let me be the first to say by flopsquad · · Score: 1

      I've seen more than one person indicate they would like to see it used against *everyone* caught selling drugs (often a quite minor crime), and other crimes one may think minor.

      Try not to let the trolls skew your perception of humanity. Yes, there are a few people that truly do hold viewpoints like that, and they are fucking savages. But by and large people are not as bloodthirsty and vindictive as the trolliest trolls here would have us believe.

      --
      Nothing posted to /. has ever been legal advice, including this.
    125. Re:Let me be the first to say by budgenator · · Score: 1

      the Nazis were, usually, more "humane" than that because they optimized their gas chambers for efficiency, not maximum suffering.

      You don't know what you are talking about

      The victims were dead within 20 minutes.[39] Johann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw gassings, testified that the "shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives".[40] Zyklon B

      The only efficiency the German Socialists were worried about were economic.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    126. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 2

      It's obviously better the lower the re-conviction rates are, both for the inmate as well as for the socíety, so to argue that rehabilitation is not an important function of the system makes no sense to me.

      Lower recidivism is good, but rehabilitation isn't the only way to get there. For instance, you can increase sentence lengths dramatically... then when they're released, they've aged out of the criminal population. You don't see a lot of 65 year old gangbangers.

      Another effective technique is surgical castration. It lowers sex drive and aggression which would help people not recommit violent crimes including rape. It's pretty harsh, but I think if we made it a mandatory procedure for anybody convicted of a 2nd violent crime, A) it would reduce commission of 2nd violent crimes and B) it would dramatically reduce commission of 3rd violent crimes.

    127. Re:Let me be the first to say by budgenator · · Score: 1, Funny

      While I agree with you, the liberals would whine about heroin not being FDA Approved and especially not approved for that purpose, no assurances of purity, no assurances of efficacy and therefore an unconstitutional "cruel and inhuman punishment"

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    128. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      They might be ignorant of the law, but I doubt anybody has committed a crime for which the death penalty applies and not thought, "Boy, if this victim had the power, or their family, they'd probably kill me."

    129. Re:Let me be the first to say by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Air is 80% N2 anyway, you would be unlikely to notice a difference as 100%N2 would carry CO2 out of your lung as effectively as 80/20 N2O2 would.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    130. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Vengeance is one of the purposes, and is another one where the truth doesn't matter as much. If the family of the victim thinks the perpetrator has been executed, it doesn't really matter if it was the wrong person (unless the truth comes out later).

    131. Re:Let me be the first to say by rikkards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except that rape isn't about sex, it's about control. Castration has been found not to work

    132. Re:Let me be the first to say by backwardsposter · · Score: 1

      And according to most of the people posting here, that is an insightful position and Trump is smart for considering her.

    133. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      Inject ethanol.

    134. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 0

      First of all, no, rape is about sex.

      Second, nothing is foolproof except death, but I've read that castration results in much lower recidivism rates than other treatments. It's only really been done (in modern times) to a small population of very dangerous sexual offenders, and it's had a lot of success. I think applying it more broadly to violent crime would have a huge deterrent effect, as well as reducing recidivism.

    135. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Execution and incarceration are positive punishment, while fines are negative punishment.

      These things don't work, in that the target will attempt to find a way around the problem; however, humans are strong planners, and will analyze risks and avoid doing things if they can't find a way to avoid the risk, or if the risk outweighs the reward. Many animals are weaker at this, and will repeat the behavior if they perceive themselves to have found a way to avoid the risk--even if the risk is severe.

      Human operant behavior is confounded by human rational behavior to a much greater degree than in animals. Positive reinforcement generally works better, but that requires having alternative behaviors available which you can reinforce to a point of extinguishing the target behavior. That tends to be technically-complex and raise all kinds of weird social issues, e.g. rape behavior is largely avoided because of the positive reinforcement of social acceptance and the corresponding negative punishment of losing that, and some (much?) of the remaining rape behavior can be diverted by a society which is looser about sex (e.g. some European societies, Greece), making non-rape sex more available (especially if committing rape gets you rejected by future potential partners) at the expense of horrifying the moral compass of the existing society (because sex is bad).

      This is also why I make the weak argument that reductions in poverty draw reductions in crime, although people like to immediately claim there will still be some crime anyway (non-zero) and thus reducing poverty doesn't reduce crime (not all, thus not any). I tend to just assume those people are morons.

    136. Re:Let me be the first to say by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty.

      Which means that we will have a crime free society if the punishment for every transgression was immediate execution. How many of us will make it past potty training?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    137. Re:Let me be the first to say by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure 'retires' 'snuff' 'take care of' etc are not legally recognised terms. All of those at least are euphemisms for the same thing, murder. You should look up euphemism yourself, you don't seem completely clear on the concept.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    138. Re:Let me be the first to say by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2

      Luis Vargas and those like him might disagree with those castrations. Cleared 16 years after being convicted of 3 rapes. Our system is far too broken and will always be so to allow permanent things like that.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    139. Re:Let me be the first to say by GLMDesigns · · Score: 0

      Stop repeating that banal sh!t.

      A couple generations ago when people said it was all about desire they were wrong.

      Now when people are saying it's all about control they are wrong.

      Is theft all about control? No.

      It's you have what I want. (iPhone)
      I'm going to take it.

      You have what I want (sex)
      I'm going to take it.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    140. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is the profit in a peaceful society based on non-aggression and voluntarism?

    141. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a very long title. Even for Utube.

    142. Re:Let me be the first to say by mysidia · · Score: 1

      The supplies can be had at any welding shop for not much money.

      I can see it now.... chemical companies producing nitrogen raising prices and adding restrictions against selling Nitrogen and other gaseous products for use in executions.

    143. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much have you studied these claims? I don't care at all about your gut feeling. Gut is always wrong.

    144. Re:Let me be the first to say by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      You don't really need to fill an entire room. You could simply strap the victim to a table or chair, which many facilities already have. Then put a gas mask on them and pump it full of your favorite inert gas. If the room is ventilated at all you wouldn't need any special pumps or valves other than the shutoff valve attached to the gas canister. You could literally go buy a mask and duct tape at an army surplus store, pickup a small tank of helium, and some rubber tubing and be all set to conduct executions. Now that I think about it the mask is actually an unnecessary expense, you could just use a plastic bag. You only need enough helium to fill the bag or mask, and then a trickle to maintain positive pressure preventing regular atmosphere from getting in for the few minutes till death.

    145. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Castration [a] is obviously only suitable for males, [b] would be considered 'cruel and inhumane', and [c] requires life-long hormone therapy. You can't just stop having sex hormones in your body without serious medical consequences.

      If you really believe this is a good solution to social ills, I think you need to go find another society to be part of. Your views are not compatible with civilized society.

    146. Re:Let me be the first to say by operagost · · Score: 1

      Compare that to something like Norway [businessinsider.com] which has one of the 'softest' prison systems and has no life imprisonment (technically, although with people like Brevik it's unlikely he will ever be let free, as they have to pass an assessment before release or the sentence can be continued, and even if he's ever released he'll probably be released into a mental institution)

      Norway is cowardly. Claiming your term limit is 21 years, then codifying in law that it can be de facto extended indefinitely, would not pass muster under the US Constitution.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    147. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what recidivism means. Nice try idiot.

    148. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about the death penalty if the defendant pleaded "guilty", and life in prison if the defendant pleaded "not guilty"?

    149. Re:Let me be the first to say by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty."

      But that doesn't work.

      If you need a small incentive to not engage in crime then working on better socio-developmental environments for everyone is a better avenue.

      If you need a larger incentive to not engage in crime then going to prison doesn't deter you and can make you a better criminal.

      If you need a very large incentive to not engage in crime even the death penalty won't deter you, it might even make the criminal activity more exiting.

      But the worse socially is having the death penalty, or "punishing" sanctions, means you have a more cruel society which leads to more unrest and more crime.

    150. Re:Let me be the first to say by operagost · · Score: 1

      The same thing would happen with pure helium

      Make sure you have them read their final statement after the room has been filled for maximum entertainment.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    151. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, actually, you might look at civil commitment procedures in the US federal system...

    152. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I find this position ridiculous because people are quite happy to say, "We might kill an innocent man! Put him in jail and we can let him out in 20 years if we're wrong!" 20 years of isolation from your friends and family, who have ceased caring about you; 20 years without a job, without outside society's social interaction, and without financial growth; 20 years not pursuing your personal or professional goals, whether that's building a career or building a family. You are fucking dead, and you're walking around irritating the rest of us complaining about how your life is now useless; your only compensation is you still have a pulse, and maybe the state will give you some money so you can be miserable in an apartment somewhere.

      How about we try fixing our laws, our society, and our legal system? It's not just the courts; the entire social structure which demands action but avoids involvement results in more prosecution and less evidence. Bad economic policies result in more poverty than necessary (we can currently get this to effectively zero in the United States, but that's new--circa 2013 viability marker), leading to more crime, more isolate social group behavior (gangs), and more secondary criminal behavior, ultimately leading to more prosecution in a muddier environment. We can't fix all the problems; we're just lagging behind what we *can* fix now. Get to it.

    153. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The definition of murder is unlawful killing: murder is killing when the state says it's not okay.

    154. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a recently released federal inmate (bankrobbery, carjacking, gun charge) looking for a job, let me say you can't imagine the frustration. We talk about second chances, we just don't give them.

    155. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I looked up the name, he was exonerated for a series of rapes that he didn't commit. But he did rape his own girlfriend before that and served 3 years.

      That said, yes there are some innocent people who would be hurt by this. That sucks. Making it a punishment for a 2nd conviction would reduce that a lot. It could also be an option for 1st offenses that are incontrovertible.

    156. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bill Cosby

    157. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read 65 year old gangbangers and that is who came to mind

    158. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a straw man argument.

    159. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How could you possibly know that

    160. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yes, quite a bit of the suffering from the death penalty is the fault of the anti-death penalty people,

      That line of reasoning is beyond absurd.

    161. Re:Let me be the first to say by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      that can't be right. I can hold my breath for a minute, let alone 12 seconds, without passing out.

      When you hold your breath, the air in your lungs is about 20% oxygen. When you breathe pure N2, the air in your lungs is 0% oxygen.

    162. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all killing is murder. [...] The state decides what is just killing and what is murder.

      This makes no sense whatsoever, because the state does not define what words mean, let alone moral terms.

    163. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Michael Brown was just a case of assisted suicide? I like it.

    164. Re:Let me be the first to say by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      You can do it by scrubbing the CO2 from an enclosed space. They slowly use up the O2 but because the CO2 levels never rise they don't notice the falling O2 levels and hence the urge to breath. They just pass out and then die. Hypoxic hypoxia is I believe the correct medical term.

    165. Re:Let me be the first to say by TroII · · Score: 2

      Which I suspect is why it's not covered more by the media (a huge majority of whom are against the death penalty).

      It's kept out of the media to discourage suicide. People in general are not aware that there's a clean, fast, painless, and relatively accessible way to "check out," and this is by design. Especially with regards to the clean part. A surprising number of suicidal individuals don't go through with it solely because the more traditional methods (gun, knife, train, ...) would leave a big mess for someone else to deal with.

    166. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So hard a whoosh.

    167. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Ending the death penalty is hardly the ONLY needed reform and I'm rather certain I never said otherwise. But it is a part of the problem. Stopping the state from committing negligent homicide is just one step.

      Another would be actually attempting to compensate someone who was wrongly imprisoned to the extent that it's possible. Along with that (and perhaps spurred on by the extreme costs of proper compensation) prosecutorial reform and reforms in the courts to return to the idea of weighing the evidence and prosecuting the guilty. No more stacking charges with the intent to plead it down to what the prosecutor actually believes them guilty of. No more making a mockery of the right to an attorney by appointing public defenders too busy to learn the defendant's name before the first hearing. The list goes on.

      None of that makes wanting society to stop killing people ridiculous.

    168. Re:Let me be the first to say by Holi · · Score: 1

      so get generic diazepam, Valium's patent expired quite awhile ago.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    169. Re:Let me be the first to say by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Singapore comes pretty close to that. Not surprisingly, it is the safest country in the world for the law-abiding. Mandatory, unappealable death penalty for illegal drugs or possession of more than one illegal firearm.

    170. Re:Let me be the first to say by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Thirdly, because many of the people in jail or prison weren't actually guilty http://www.innocenceproject.or... , or were there because of behavior that shouldn't be a crime in the first place.

    171. Re:Let me be the first to say by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      It's not the point of my argument.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    172. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, it isn't. The state condoning it does not magically stop murder being murder.

    173. Re:Let me be the first to say by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Except that you can buy from numerous chemical companies. Hell, buy a nitrogen station. You can use it to fill up the tires of prison vehicles when you're not using it for executions.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    174. Re:Let me be the first to say by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Singapore comes pretty close to that. Not surprisingly, it is the safest country in the world for the law-abiding. Mandatory, unappealable death penalty for illegal drugs or possession of more than one illegal firearm.

      And no abuse of that power, I'm certain. That is always the issue with the type of world that some folks desire. When the criminals are also the people deciding hwo lives and who doesn't.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    175. Re:Let me be the first to say by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I could even argue that the Nazis were, usually, more "humane" than that because they optimized their gas chambers for efficiency, not maximum suffering.

      As part of the efficiency, they used a commercial preparation of cyanide. Zyklon-B contained an irritant to try to make sure nobody was going to hang around a leak, and deliberately made the irritant intolerable at lethal concentrations. They didn't optimize for maximum suffering, but the effect was much the same.

      Had they used pure cyanide, you might have a point. Not a good one, but a point.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    176. Re:Let me be the first to say by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Death by enema? Wow, now that's a death without dignity.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    177. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see it now, junkies committing murder for that one last final dose.

      "Make it 4x the amount doc, I got a high tolerance, trust me, better yet, make it 5x. Just to be sure."

      Just so no one bitches at me and says how dare you.

      Whoooooooshhhhhsh

    178. Re:Let me be the first to say by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Seems to me it would reduce recidivism. If applied to any but the very worst crimes, it would encourage crime. If I'm committing armed robbery, and am looking at five or ten years if I'm caught, and life if I kill the victim, I'm likely to not want to kill. If it's a death sentence either way, whether to kill or not depends on which way I'm more likely to be caught, and the police are not all that good at finding murderers that have no obvious connection to the victim.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    179. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeaaaaa because moving is that easy.

      Your strawman is stupid.

      I got one for you,

      Let's make heroin legal in half the state. I wonder which half the state addicts will move to. Hmmm no you don't say.

    180. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So let the victims simultaneously shoot them with paintballs while wearing oxygen masks?

    181. Re: Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't your mom ever tell you "two wrongs don't make a right"

    182. Re:Let me be the first to say by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sure. You build up carbon dioxide, you breathe. Carbon dioxide goes away. That's how it normally works, and breathing is not normally uncomfortable. The difference is that you're also losing rather than gaining oxygen, so you pass out pretty fast and die peacefully not too long later. I don't know if a person would get to the point of wanting to breathe again, but it remains a very humane execution method.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    183. Re:Let me be the first to say by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One problem with executing the wrong guy is that you've got a murderer around who's not only escaped conviction but scrutiny. Nobody's going to be looking for the real murderer, and even if some amateur finds the guy it's going to be awful embarrassing to prosecute him or her.

      This is one of the lessons of the French Dreyfus affair in the 19th Century: after he was convicted on really flimsy evidence, the army had to let the real spy, Esterhazy, go free or admit that they lied about Dreyfus.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    184. Re:Let me be the first to say by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty.

      And that's been so effective that US prisoners account for 50% of the entire world's prison population despite that fact the we're only 4% of the global population.

      If I could a a picture here, it would be the one of Bush in front of the "Mission accomplished" banner.

    185. Re:Let me be the first to say by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Too bad for you, we have a constitution.

      It's ironic you view prisoners as sub-human...
      guess why.

    186. Re:Let me be the first to say by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      citation please
      plus, your talking about sex crimes, what about the majority of crimes that are not sexual.

    187. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That'd be a real bitch for the unlucky sod who rolls "crucifixion".

    188. Re:Let me be the first to say by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Reduce, not remove. Sorry I realy dont want the state mutilating people in my name in any case, how long till it's in error how long till it's malicious?

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    189. Re:Let me be the first to say by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't you need some way to get rid of the oxygen and carbon dioxide? It seems to me that what fills the bag or mask is pretty much irrelevant.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    190. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Compensating people for wrongful imprisonment means taking money from other people. If you don't fix your legal system, you're using more than necessary of other people's money to do that; and, from a macroeconomic standpoint, you have a laborer who goes unused but who collects income, which is similar to just paying people to dig holes and fill them in again: more cost, less product, and the sum total of all consumer money (and thus any portion thereof) carries less buying power.

      The "to the extent possible" qualifier is a handwave against the *enormous* social consequences of imprisonment, which death-penalty opponents universally consider no big deal. Nobody cries out about the barbaric practice of imprisoning people in the first place--a much worse crime with many more victims than state execution, and that's not even including secondary victims from the economic impacts and the social impacts of manufacturing criminals by socialization to a prison environment.

      The huge movement against the death penalty is as ridiculous as if you started a movement against people causing psychological harm to their kids by buying them ugly goldfish to remind them they're ugly kids: that sounds terrible, and maybe you should worry about it after you start with child sexual abuse, violent physical abuse, drug households, and the broken foster care system that systematically neglects millions of children every year.

      Moral victories, though. It sounds better when you say "killing people is bad! We should put them in prison, then we could release them when we discover they're innocent and make amends!" and leave out that THERE IS NO UNDOING THE HORRIFIC DAMAGE YOU HAVE DONE TO THIS INDIVIDUAL AS A PERSON FOREVER. It's also a lot harder to make "prison is barbaric and we should minimize its use as a form of sentencing" sound meaningful, since people can't process that YOU DON'T COME BACK FROM PRISON; PRISON COMES BACK WITH YOU.

    191. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How could that work? The statement is specifically cruel AND unusual, not cruel OR unusual. Nitrogen asphyxiation may be unusual; but it's certainly not cruel. So it passes the check.

      (Unless you believe that *any* execution is cruel and unusual. But that's another discussion.)

    192. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      Compensating people for wrongful imprisonment means taking money from other people. If you don't fix your legal system, you're using more than necessary of other people's money to do that; and, from a macroeconomic standpoint, you have a laborer who goes unused but who collects income, which is similar to just paying people to dig holes and fill them in again: more cost, less product, and the sum total of all consumer money (and thus any portion thereof) carries less buying power.

      So you oppose compensation when an inevitable error is made? What's your alternative, kill them? Throw them to the wolves?

      The "to the extent possible" qualifier is a handwave against the *enormous* social consequences of imprisonment,

      No, it's a recognition that there is on;y so much that can be done given we don't have time travel.

      which death-penalty opponents universally consider no big deal.

      Universally? This very thread disproves that.

      In fact, as I have made clear, I favor judicial and prosecutorial reform as well.

      While not stated yet in this thread, I also favor prison reform. I don't see how putting someone in a screwed up environment like the current prison system and isolating them from society to the current degree is supposed to make them one day be ready to rejoin society and be a productive member. Especially when the evidence is to the contrary.

    193. Re:Let me be the first to say by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Death by enema? Wow, now that's a death without dignity.

      What a crappy way to go!

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    194. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course. I never understood the thing about 'humane execution'. People are only executed for really nasty stuff, so why not 'execution by log chipper' or 'burning at the stake'? We don't care about these people at all - why a 'nice kill'?

    195. Re: Let me be the first to say by budgenator · · Score: 1

      No just hang a IV and let it drip, sooner or later, no matter how much tolerance they have they'll feel all fuzzie and mellow, then they'll realize they are not breathing enough (I've been there at the burn clinic), after that they'll forgot to breath on purpose, then they'll stop breathing at all and a few minutes later they'll be dead.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    196. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or we can remove their arms and legs. You don't see a lot of quadriplegic criminals. Or we can just kill anyone who is convicted of a felony. Death is a very effective recidivism deterrent. Or we could just realize that punishment is largely pointless and virtually has no long term effect on recidivism or crime and that our penal system completely broken because it's is 100% based on a combination of political pandering, fear mongering and profitability.

    197. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Define Recidivism. "the chance a single person will re-offend" is your definition, but is not used. The statistic is aggregated and averaged over the entire population. So if recidivism overall increases from 20% to 50% with the use of a death penalty, you'd still say that recidivism drops because the dead guy isn't doing the re-offending?

      Also, when you define "recidivism" as a per-person statistic, why would you assert the the death penalty decreases recidivism more than life without parole?

    198. Re:Let me be the first to say by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      you never feel out of breadth

      That's the quote I objected to. And so far, everyone has agreed with me, but some in a disagreeable manner. You must still breathe or you will feel out of breath. I never said anything about comfort. Please read the thread and quote the line that indicates I indicated it would be "uncomfortable". I was correcting an incorrect statement about the metabolism, not commenting on comfort.

    199. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Hogwash. Murder has a specific definition and you cannot make your own up. Well you can but don't expect anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence to take you seriously.

    200. Re:Let me be the first to say by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, yes the state does. Murder is a legal term for killing someone.

    201. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Singapore is one of the least free countries in the world. Of course everyone law-abiding is safe - but most of the freedoms Americans take for granted would not be considered "law-abiding" in Singapore. Its drugs laws in particular are arbitrary authoritarianism and, like all prohibition, doesn't actually stop the trade, just up the stakes and the opportunity for profitable corruption.

      Since it's relatively tiny and culturally homogeneous - an ex-British trading hub in the style of Hong Kong which relies almost entirely on the resources of contries around it - it doesn't collapse up its own backside.

    202. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes

      In other words: control by fear. Doublespeak is not as effective as you think.

    203. Re:Let me be the first to say by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      Norway is cowardly. Claiming your term limit is 21 years, then codifying in law that it can be de facto extended indefinitely, would not pass muster under the US Constitution.

      I'm not Norwegian so I don't know the details of how it works exactly, but I think such a system is still superior to 'life without the possibility of parole'.

      The way we have it set up in here (Finland) is that we have a life sentence (which one can only get for murder, or treason/war crimes/crime against humanity etc), but as per law everyone has the right to apply for parole after 12 years, no matter the crime. The median sentence length IIRC is something like 16 years, and it seems to be working for the most part as only about 15 % of released lifers ever end up back in jail.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    204. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You might want to consider the slippery slope here: If you give someone a benefit from someone else's death, there may soon be something other than someone's crime deciding whether he gets life or death. Or, in other terms, "Judge? We'd currently be looking for someone to test our new drug, and that defendant would fit our profile just perfectly. Have you ever considered a new Ferrari?"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    205. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Singapore is about as safe as a well run prison can be.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    206. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty

      Not working. Never has never will. Two words are enough to explain to everyone here that even the most insane punishment for the pettiest crime never deterred anyone:

      Copyright infringement.

      I rest my case.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    207. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Extrapolation from experience. Either the devout and pious religious are hiding somewhere, huddled together and away from society or they are so rare that so far we haven't found them yet.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    208. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      In some countries this depends very much on the crime committed. Germany for example has the legal formula "Lebenslang mit anschließender Sicherheitsverwahrung" (translates to "life with subsequent preventive custody"). Because of the same reason, "life" means something like 30 years. There are crimes, though, where they do not want the culprit to go free again. EVER. NO chance whatsoever. So after he's done his "life" sentence, he's no longer imprisoned for life, he's just in "preventive custody". Which is pretty much legal mumbo jumbo for "you won't get out of here alive again, asshole!"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    209. Re:Let me be the first to say by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If you had killed Hitler in 1922, you'd have been hung for murder.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    210. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty."

      Considering that the USA has the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world, how is that working out for you?

      Just like study after study has show, higher penalties rarely result in lower crime. Criminals don't expect to be caught.

      The penal system should not be focused on vengeance (USA: "justice") or setting harsh examples. It should be focused on rehabilitation and stopping re-offending.

    211. Re:Let me be the first to say by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The only efficiency the German Socialists were worried about were economic.

      They weren't even worried about that. The first gas chambers just used truck exhaust, which is cheaper than building a chemical factory. They explicitly tried to find ways to make a more horrible weapon, and once they had it, they went ahead and used it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    212. Re:Let me be the first to say by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      The helium is lighter than air, so as long as you keep the only openings of the bag or mask on the bottom it should push all the regular atmosphere out the bottom opening. I'm not sure about the densities of other inert gasses that might be cheaper than helium. But so long as the other inert gasses are either heavier or lighter than normal atmosphere it is a simple exercise to provide for the gas to build up where you want it. You want inert gasses to be what the victim is breathing instead of oxygen because it would sustain life, and carbon because that would trigger the bodies asphyxiation panic mode and cause undue suffering.

    213. Re:Let me be the first to say by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "If you need a very large incentive to not engage in crime even the death penalty won't deter you, it might even make the criminal activity more exiting."

      Scrath "make the criminal activity more exiting", what I'm looking for is more along the line of: part of the motivation for incarceration and execution can by revenge, part of the motivation for crime can be revenge too.

    214. Re:Let me be the first to say by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      it's a recognition that there is on;y so much that can be done given we don't have time travel.

      The "only so much that can be done" is we burned down your house, murdered your family, and cut off your right hand, so we've given you this loaf of bread to help get you started out.

    215. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oklahoma, the bastion of freedom and constitutional laws. Aren't they about to lose a bunch of money on lawsuits regarding their new abortion law? Well I guess someone losing a bunch of money over lawsuits is perfect VP choice.

    216. Re:Let me be the first to say by sjames · · Score: 1

      If you know a proper way to fix that, I'm all ears.

    217. Re:Let me be the first to say by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The drugs used in current "leathal injection executions" are tightly controlled and tracked and there are only a handful of manufacturers for each drug. So a handful of manufacturers can put a spanner in the works.

      Trying to stop a US state getting it's hands on nitrogen would be much harder. It's about 80% of the air and pretty easy to seperate.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    218. Re:Let me be the first to say by tlambert · · Score: 1

      One problem with executing the wrong guy is that you've got a murderer around who's not only escaped conviction but scrutiny. Nobody's going to be looking for the real murderer, and even if some amateur finds the guy it's going to be awful embarrassing to prosecute him or her.

      I seem to remember that after OJ's exoneration, no one was "looking for the real murderer", even though he had been found not guilty.

      So the argument that the investigation would be pursued following a defendant being found guilty, and later exonerated, is even less likely.

    219. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure it's been tried as extensively as with sexual offenses, but studies do show reduction in aggression when testosterone is eliminated.

      What are you requesting a citation for? That rape is about sex? The most convincing argument I've read is in a book called "The Dark Side of Man." I'm not going to type it all up but basically the author looks at rape victim statistics among animals and humans and notes that the vast majority of rape is perpetrated against young women of childbearing age. If it's just about power and/or opportunity, there would be more rapes of young children and the elderly. While they happen, they are relatively rare and we see them as more deviant.

    220. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You're worried about errors and malicious actions done by the state, but you're only considering their actions towards suspects. The state has responsibility towards victims and future victims as well. It's clearly an error when the state releases a rapist who goes on to rape again and victimize another person, right?

    221. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your going to be the *first* person we castrate in this new system. You see you are committing a violent act against another human being and for that we need to castrate you.

      Stop the violence already. I'm sick of it. If government quit violating everybody's rights we wouldn't have near the problems we have. We have literally created our own problems by making it impossible to do productive honest work. If I as an educated person with a B.S. in Computer Science am legally prohibited from competing in the market place because of undue regulation that only mega-corporations can possibly begin to comply with then your going to see the majority committing more crime. I learned a long time ago that in business it's not about what the law says. It's about what you can get away with and what the risk is. If the risk is huge they penalty better be insignificant. If the risk is huge and the penalty significant the payout better be huge. etc. It's risk vs reward. The majority of small business owners which employ the majority of people in the United States are operating illegally because of the unbelievable amount of needless regulation. Regulation that hinders people from becoming productive members of society. It's not just convicted criminals that are committing crimes it's *everyone*. You only need to comply with laws when and where there are actually people enforcing them. Some laws matter more than others. For example tax law matters a lot. They come down hard on tax dodgers (well, if you don't pay any taxes, you can avoid tax to some degree). On the other hand the chance that the government is going to notice that the product I'm selling imported from China isn't certified... well.. that's another story. They might come down on me if I speak up about the regulations. If I STFU and mind to myself they'll never even notice because we don't sell enough to ever come across there raider. And by small I mean we're doing less than a million dollars a year small. That doesn't mean your not selling a lot of product. It means your less than a fraction of 1% of the market.

    222. Re:Let me be the first to say by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      New job opportunity: unemployed actors pick up gigs by simulating painful execution for public consumption.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    223. Re:Let me be the first to say by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Culturally homogeneous? Its residents come from three completely different religious backgrounds and many countries - Buddhist (from China and India), Islam (Malaysia and the native population), Christian (British / European). The strict laws against religion bashing are part of why everyone can get along (mainly because everyone who can't get along is in jail).

    224. Re:Let me be the first to say by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      It's actually considered the 8th least corrupt country in the world, between Switzerland and Canada. Source.

    225. Re:Let me be the first to say by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's actually considered the 8th least corrupt country in the world, between Switzerland and Canada. Source.

      Yay! Wer'e number 8, We're number 8!

      Smartassness aside, yes, that is pretty good. But it is a country ripe for abuse. It isn't always about the "right now" - it's about what can happen.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    226. Re:Let me be the first to say by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      That is not an error that is the default we built the system around. A conscious choice to let some people go free that committed a crime due to placing a high burden of proof on the state etc. I can choose to take matters into my own hands and accept the consequences for doing so in a corner case that I feel strongly about. It's a lot harder to correct state overreach and malfeasance than their failure to convict so it's sensible to balance things toward the people and not the state. It's always possible to take somebodys life you can never give it back.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    227. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that rape isn't about sex, it's about control.

      I imagine you parrot that a lot. Have you ever though about it? Questioned it?
      When a frat boy finds a passed out hot chick, do you think him raping her is about control? How much more control can you have once they are passed out. Drawing penises on a passed out dude's face, in permanent marker, is not about control, it is about what seems funny.
      I suspect that saying came from the same place that "rape culture" came from. A study on how MEN treat MEN in PRISON. ~0 applicability to rape between different genders outside prison (especially when none of them are violent felons).
      Victimists have rushed to make "Rape Culture" their own because it is horrible. It is dishonest, wrong, and sick and you should stop enabling it.

    228. Re:Let me be the first to say by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      Let's go back to the occasional Roman method of execution - by vivisection. Literally dissecting the condemned person while alive.

      Of course, this was millennia before the development of effective anaesthetics.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    229. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      It's still an error. You're forgetting that our system is also built around the possibility of making false convictions. Errors go both ways in our system, we've known that since the beginning. You remind me of people who think our system of justice requires "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt" -- that's not how it works.

      so it's sensible to balance things toward the people and not the state

      I'm talking about victims and potential victims, not the state.

      It's always possible to take somebodys life you can never give it back.

      You're still only looking at half the equation, and even that you're oversimplifying. You can't give back time, humiliation, the destruction of careers, or castrated testicles. So? People aren't perfect and neither are collections of people, i.e. the state. You can't let the possibility of death or anything else paralyze you from investigating and implementing smarter solutions.

    230. Re:Let me be the first to say by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I'm looking for any citations indicating castration reduces aggression in humans, but nice try avoiding the question.

    231. Re:Let me be the first to say by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Some feel that the death penalty is a mercy over a real life sentence having to live with the guilt on your conscience of what you did.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    232. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Umm, avoiding the question? It wasn't clear what you were referring to. Good job sounding like a complete douche.

      http://www.scientificamerican....

    233. Re:Let me be the first to say by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      and again... No citations, that answers my question.

    234. Re:Let me be the first to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ironically, those condemned to death by the court get to go out a lot easier then their victims.

    235. Re:Let me be the first to say by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Are you stupid? Did you not see the link?

      Bye troll

    236. Re:Let me be the first to say by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      it seems to be working for the most part as only about 15 % of released lifers ever end up back in jail

      So 85% do reoffend. You describe that as working?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. Red states don't care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll just have a compounding pharmacy make a batch of the same drugs off the record, or they'll send someone with a big sack of cash to drive out of state and obtain it illegally. I respect Pfizer for taking this stance, but the thirst for blood will sadly not be stopped.

  3. Nitrogen by Macdude · · Score: 1

    A simple gas mask and a tank of Nitrogen and you've got a guaranteed execution toolkit. There is no need for "exotic" chemicals.

    Search wikipedia for Inert_gas_asphyxiation

    --
    "Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
    1. Re:Nitrogen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember the monkey from the 'Andromeda Strain' movie?
      To get the monkey to go from calm, to hysterical panic, they filled the room with Co2, then opened his cage so he asphyxiated. It's not a painless or fast death:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSv380vBzPM

    2. Re: Nitrogen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was wit Co2. Your body doesn't have the same reaction to nitrogen.

    3. Re:Nitrogen by Imrik · · Score: 1

      If you use CO2, then yes, it's not painless. Using nitrogen instead causes the person to pass out and die.

    4. Re:Nitrogen by sirket · · Score: 1

      Yes- because they used CO2. CO2 forms carbonic acid in the blood stream which upsets the acid-base homeostasis. Our brains detect that imbalance which is what triggers the breathing reflex. The more CO2 you give them- the higher the level of carbonic acid- and the stronger the reaction. In other words- it's not lack of oxygen that causes us to want to breathe- it's too much CO2.

      If you fill a room with only Nitrogen, or just place a non-rebreather mask on their face and connected to a Nitrogen tank- they will simply fall unconscious and die within a couple of minutes. There is no pain, and no panic.

      It is, in fact, a painless and quick death.

  4. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't much care for drug companies, but I suspect it is a violation of the Hippocratic oath to kill your patient.

    1. Re:Good by DaHat · · Score: 1

      How many corporations (drug or otherwise) take the Hippocratic oath?

      I doubt Charles Pfizer did as he wasn't an MD, only a chemist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The current chairman & CEO Ian Read is also not a doctor, having a degree in chemical engineering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    2. Re:Good by dohzer · · Score: 2

      Isn't a patient someone who can be healed/rehabilitated?
      If they're up for execution, hasn't a decision been made about whether this is feasible?

    3. Re: Good by valdezjuan · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that's the case though, there are several diseases (both physical and mental) that simply can't be healed or rehabilitated and they are most certainly patients if they are in a doctors care. Now doctors administering the lethal cocktail, I would argue, *should* consider them patients since they are under their direct care (if only for that brief, if it goes correctly, interaction). The random experimenting of 'new' and untested (for this purpose) on inmates is a bit troubling. In the case of Joseph Wood, they used a combination of midazolam & hydromorphone (injecting him at least 15 times). As someone who has been on opiates (that exact one even) for 10+ years (10 knee surgeries + spine/back issues), I can relate my experience on dosage. It can vary widely from person to person and that seems to be a bit genetic and then tolerance over time. My first experience involved me taking several times the lethal dosage (was trying to make the pain go away, not just tolerable). That translated to 7200mg of OxyContin (back when you could chew them), 1200mg of Percocet and about 39,000mg of acetaminophen; in about 25-28 hours. I didn't die, wasn't high and was still in pain (my liver is amazing).

      My ramble is trying to make the point that just rolling the dice while trying to kill someone seems a little too much like torture and a hell of a lot like ignoring the oaths doctors take. The nitrogen options mentioned in these threads seems far more humane with a far less chance of it randomly fucking it up (except for that whole wrongful conviction, forced deals and the like).

    4. Re:Good by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I suggest you look into their dealings with Hillary Clinton if you want to see a real scandal instead of Party endorsed talking points for useful idiots, like the email storm in a teacup that you are so obsessed about.

    5. Re:Good by DaHat · · Score: 1

      I suggest you learn to read where I said I was familiar with the accusations, shame you are more interested in stalking than facts.

    6. Re:Good by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Which Hippocatic oath? It's been revised so many times that some variants no longer have any recognisable connection to the original. Really should take his name off it.

    7. Re:Good by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Stalking? It's entirely on topic since I wasted many posts attempting to get the Pfizer point across to you and then I saw your name here on this Pfizer article with a post not being critical of them in any way despite their bribery scandal with Hillary Clinton who you frequently demonize for trivia instead of several real crimes she appears to be guilty of.

      I suggest you learn to read where I said I was familiar with the accusations

      I did not read anything by you along those lines - link please.

      Is the evasion of this issue to avoid opening the bribery can of worms that may taint people you support or can you really supply that link and you have not been evading the issue, just ignoring me many many times when I attempted to bring it up with you?

    8. Re: Good by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      The nitrogen options mentioned in these threads seems far more humane with a far less chance of it randomly fucking it up (except for that whole wrongful conviction, forced deals and the like).

      To be fair, when I mention Nitrogen as an option, I'm making a technical assessment. I consider the steps leading up to actually conducting the execution a different process. If the thread had been about the accuracy of the death penalty, the process by which a death penalty works it's way to the execution, or such, I wouldn't bring up nitrogen at all. Instead I'd be talking about removing or restricting prosecutorial immunity and such. IE hold them responsible when they withhold exculpatory evidence.

      And yes, 'less chance of fucking it up' is a large portion of the reason that I support it. With N2, you're looking at maybe a couple valves. N2 canisters go here, canisters of regular compressed air there(if necessary), make sure the welding shop level equipment is working, that the N2 canisters are full of N2 when you begin, etc... There's no real medical knowledge necessary. No venipunctures to mess up.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    9. Re:Good by DaHat · · Score: 1

      I provided countless links in the previous discussion, all of which you ignored.

      Again, you are not worthy of my time.

  5. We need more executions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need more executions to reduce overcrowding in prisons. There are some people whose crimes affect thousands or even millions of people. Authors of malware and hackers who carry out data breaches can harm millions of people with one crime. There's no good reason why we should pay to incarcerate these criminals or release them back to society to commit more crimes. The best solution is to execute them. We should be increasing the number of executions, not phasing them out.

    1. Re:We need more executions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use a lottery as the prisoner enters the prison. Don't make it conditional on the crime they committed or apply any other requirements, just make the prisoner take a number. If that number comes up, smash the prisoner's head in with a big hammer.

      Adjust the probability distribution as necessary.

    2. Re:We need more executions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need more executions to reduce overcrowding in prisons. There are some people whose crimes affect thousands or even millions of people. Authors of malware and hackers who carry out data breaches can harm millions of people with one crime. There's no good reason why we should pay to incarcerate these criminals or release them back to society to commit more crimes. The best solution is to execute them. We should be increasing the number of executions, not phasing them out.

      Amen, brother!
      But why bother with petty criminals like these? Go for the real criminals: politicians, lawyers, marketing people.

    3. Re:We need more executions by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      We need more executions to reduce overcrowding in prisons. There are some people whose crimes affect thousands or even millions of people. Authors of malware and hackers who carry out data breaches can harm millions of people with one crime. There's no good reason why we should pay to incarcerate these criminals or release them back to society to commit more crimes. The best solution is to execute them. We should be increasing the number of executions, not phasing them out.

      Good stuff, the world needs less 'Murcans!

      Heres an even better idea; execute any 'Murcan who ever killed anyone, ever. The last person to die will be the executioner committing suicide. And then 'Murca will be at peace.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    4. Re:We need more executions by alexhs · · Score: 1

      From Franquin's Idées noires

      First panel:
      The law is clear: anyone who intentionally kills another will be beheaded. The executioner to do his office!

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
  6. get old sparky back and other inmates know when th by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 0

    get old sparky back and other inmates know when the lights dim that it went off.

  7. Corporation trumps government by Tough+Love · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I find these new adventures in controlling behaviour through fantastical intellectual property inventions deeply troublesome. Pfizer's moral concerns may indeed have merit, but in this case it seems to me that the end does not justify the means. If Pfizer wants to take a stand then they should should employ the means available to any other citizen. If Pfizer wants new law then they should argue for it with duly elected lawmakers, not presume to make the law themselves.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    1. Re:Corporation trumps government by DaHat · · Score: 1

      If Pfizer wants to take a stand then they should should employ the means available to any other citizen. If Pfizer wants new law then they should argue for it with duly elected lawmakers, not presume to make the law themselves.

      So rare I hear someone supporting Citizens United around these parts, bravo!

      More so, they are employing the same means available to other citizens... withholding consent.

      Not everyone servers on a jury, let alone a capitol case where the jury has the option to impose the death penalty... but those that do are able to withhold their consent to impose that sentence, either by squirting the person or imposing life.

    2. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But all they are doing is exercising their right to not sell you a product. There is no requirement for Pfizer or any other corporation to sell something to you if they don't want to. Of course you have the right to refuse to buy anything else from them and encourage others to do the same. But nothing they are doing is implicitly wrong.

    3. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find these new adventures in controlling behaviour through fantastical intellectual property inventions deeply troublesome. Pfizer's moral concerns may indeed have merit, but in this case it seems to me that the end does not justify the means. If Pfizer wants to take a stand then they should should employ the means available to any other citizen. If Pfizer wants new law then they should argue for it with duly elected lawmakers, not presume to make the law themselves.

      As opposed to the state forcing it to be complicit in state sponsored violence? The law already permits it to refuse to sell. The only change really needed is to provide a method to enforce its license terms not to use its products in state mandated killing.

    4. Re:Corporation trumps government by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      The government should pass a new law that says "companies that make $chamicals_suitable_for_execution pay 98% income tax by default, allowing to use said chemicals in execution lowers that tax rate to $normal".

    5. Re: Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worked with DUI limits and library censorship.

    6. Re: Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that the same right conservatives claim when not wanting to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding?

    7. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government should pass a new law that says "companies that make $chamicals_suitable_for_execution pay 98% income tax by default

      And when there's no more anesthetic available for surgery because it's not legal to produce it except at a loss of money, what then? We already have enough stupid politicians who have never studied economics and don't think through the consequences of their proposed laws. Think before you say something stupid like that. If the world was full of simple solutions to complex problems, we'd have long since been living in Utopia.

    8. Re: Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 2

      Yes and no. Yes it is technically the same right, however certain types of discrimination are unlawful. You cannot refuse to serve someone because of their race is another example of unlawful discrimination.

      However, if I sold hydroponics kit and you came to me wanting to use it for growing Pot I am within my rights to refuse you service. (Swap pot for tomatoes and the same rationale holds)

    9. Re:Corporation trumps government by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      So the companies move out of the state (assuming they have any presence there to begin with), no more tax leverage.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    10. Re:Corporation trumps government by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Do they actually have the right not to serve someone? What if the the state or the executioner is black or homosexual? Does Pfizer lose its right to participate in commerce or get fined?

      Back to reality now. This will blow up on them in the end. The feds execute people too. I expect to see fines and crap become enormous when a plant screws up or some drug has issues. I can see the ruling from a lawsuit too. How is a judge going to react in a product liability when some case he had or his pal had cannot be completed because the drug companies circumvented his ruling

    11. Re:Corporation trumps government by johanw · · Score: 1

      Then they would either move, or stop selling to the USA entirely. The issue is that the EU refuses to do buisiness with companies who sell stuff for executions, and they are a bigger market than the US. It is our way to bring those Yankee murderers some civilisation.

    12. Re:Corporation trumps government by johanw · · Score: 1

      Producing them in a state-owned company would be impossible I guess. Doing that is against the party-ideology in the US.

    13. Re:Corporation trumps government by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I live in the EU, but dislike this law. Those who commit certain crimes have, in my opinion, crossed the moral event horizon (no matter what they do from now on, they should never be allowed back to society), you might as well shoot them and save some taxpayers money (and use normal bullets, not the ones that cost more than feeding someone for 50 years).

    14. Re:Corporation trumps government by johanw · · Score: 1

      And when they later turn out to be innocent the judge and executioner will be executed too? I would support such a law, no judge would dare giving someone the death penalty.

      It's the same kind of mechanism that prevents EU companies doing business in Iran: the US is a bigger market so they can effectively enforce their sanctions over their border. Now they get a taste of their own recipe.

    15. Re:Corporation trumps government by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      And when they later turn out to be innocent the judge and executioner will be executed too? I would support such a law, no judge would dare giving someone the death penalty.

      Now be honest, this is just you not supporting the death penalty. There's nothing here saying that Pentium100 support the death penalty for all murders, much less all homicides. If the executed turns out to have been innocent, as long as they did their duty per the best of their ability, at worst it's manslaughter.

      Now if, for example, the prosecutor didn't disclose exculpatory evidence, like has happened in the past? Now I start thinking about introducing said prosecutor to the same chamber. Because that's premeditated murder.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    16. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course you have the right to refuse to buy anything else from them and encourage others to do the same.

      So, companies have a right to refuse to sell things and I have a right to refuse to buy things. That means I can refuse to buy health insurance from anybody, right? Oh wait, I can't. The government has already proved that it is happy to force both companies and people to do things they don't want to do/buy things they don't want to buy.

      Besides, I'm sure Pfizer is happy to sell products that are used in abortions. ".. enhance and save the lives of the patients we serve." Yeah, right. What Pfizer is doing is pure politics to appeal to liberals.

    17. Re:Corporation trumps government by sjames · · Score: 1

      They are just refusingly to knowingly participate in an execution, just like everyone else that objects to the death penalty. Note I'm not saying they took a moral stance, it's just that from a marketing perspective, their customers won't want to take "the execution drug".

    18. Re:Corporation trumps government by sjames · · Score: 1

      If they only refuse to sell to a black or homosexual executioner, they are in trouble. If they categorically refuse to sell when the purpose is execution, they are within the law.

    19. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Yes they have the right to not serve someone. Where they would fall foul of the law is if they served a Catholic executioner but refused to serve a Jewish executioner.

      As for penalties Pfizer are just the last major organisation to make this decision. All the others have already done it and European based companies are prohibited from selling drugs for use in executions in the first place.

    20. Re:Corporation trumps government by johanw · · Score: 1

      They "did their duty". Yes, unfortunately we in Europe have experience with this "befehl ist befehl" mentality. It's no0 valid excuse. It wasn't a valid excuse in the Neurenberg trials either.

    21. Re:Corporation trumps government by LWATCDR · · Score: 0

      " There is no requirement for Pfizer or any other corporation to sell something to you if they don't want to. "
      So you fully support places that do not want to sell services to gay couples getting married?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    22. Re:Corporation trumps government by stdarg · · Score: 1

      That is unfortunate. Luckily that's not really the way things work. I don't think, even in Europe, that prosecutors and judges go to jail when someone they locked up is freed on appeal.

    23. Re: Corporation trumps government by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1
      The bakers opposed to gay marriage refuse to sell cakes for purposes of a gay marriage. If a straight intermediary was buying the cake for a gay couple, the baker would still object. Conversely, they'd be cool with a gay intermediary buying a cake for a straight couple.

      The purpose, and not the person, is what these people are objecting to.

    24. Re:Corporation trumps government by jbssm · · Score: 1

      save some taxpayers money (and use normal bullets, not the ones that cost more than feeding someone for 50 years).

      If you live in EU, you should know we don't have life sentences here. Depends on the country, but maximum real sentence is about 25 years.

    25. Re: Corporation trumps government by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Is that the same right conservatives claim when not wanting to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding?

      Forcing someone to perform the act of baking is just cruel

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    26. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no requirement for Pfizer or any other corporation to sell something to you if they don't want to.

      That may be the case. But, if you set aside the context, that statement is utterly terrifying. When it comes to drugs, I would say that Pfizer does in fact have a moral obligation to either help (produce and sell their products to anyone who needs them, at a reasonable price) or get out of the way (surrender their patent rights so that other companies can do so.) The fact that this moral obligation doesn't equate to a legal one is a grave flaw in our patent system.

      In the present circumstance, of course, it can be argued (and I would) that selling drugs to governments that want to use them to kill people doesn't actually fall under the category of helping. But I have to disagree with the categorical statement above.

    27. Re:Corporation trumps government by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Lithuania is part of the EU and has the "lock you up and throw away the key" punishment reserved for very heinous crimes.

      I think this is good. I would not want someone who, for example, raped and murdered somebody to ever walk free (as I believe there is nothing you can do to "repent" for such a crime - if there is a god (not that I believe that), then he may forgive you, but I won't).

      Here's a short list of recent crimes that I believe the perps should never walk free again:

      A bunch of guys kidnapped a girl (she was waiting for a bus, they forced her into their car), raped her, then locked her in the trunk of their car and set the car on fire. The girl managed to call 112, but the cops could not locate her phone in time). They actually got sentenced to life in prison. Good. Their victim (what's left of her) rots underground, they rot in prison.

      A girl arranged with someone on Facebook to give her a lift to some city. However, he raped her, then tied her up and left her naked outside to die from exposure. Then he tried to get rid of his car, but since the conversation was on Facebook, the cops quickly found him. He got 20 years, so I guess after 20 years he can rape and murder again.

      There also were two girls who got a third girl (their classmate) to come to their flat, then murdered her, cut her body up into parts no more than a few kg and threw the parts away in multiple dumpsters (all parts were never found) - what gave them away was that they kept one part of the body (about 1.2kg) in their fridge for eating. They also got 20 years. The act was premeditated.

      Now, I believe that these people should never be free again. I sure as hell will never trust them to not commit such crimes again.

      Maybe a rapist (who did not kill the victim) in my opinion may be allowed back out after 20 years, but only without his "tools". Or he can keep his "tools" and stay safely away from potential victims, that is, behind bars.

    28. Re:Corporation trumps government by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Risk and punishment are more complex than most people want to argue. A few years back, someone started the argument over whether the death penalty does or does not deter murder. I went digging through data and got conflicting results: in some areas, a repeal of the death penalty didn't do anything; while in others, a repeal of the death penalty caused as much as a quadrupling of homicides in the following two years, and reinstating the death penalty immediately pushed those levels back down--not completely, leaving a long tail of normalization.

      I've since figured that there's confounding involved. In low-crime areas, the biggest fear is state retribution (you break law, you get arrested; people in upper-middle-class suburbs have historically associated committing murder with running from the law until you're inevitably captured and executed). In high-crime areas, gang crime will kill you before police; there's so much of it that they'll never find you, anyway, since you left behind just another dead body that anyone from any gang could have produced. Some areas have a sort of hostile-respect social behavior (Texas, where everyone wants to make it clear they're happy to shoot you for standing too close to their property); other areas are full of people who are scared of everything, inviting would-be criminals to do stupid things. Raising or lowering the purported consequences of criminal actions may have a large, small, or non-existent impact on criminal behavior, depending on these and other factors.

      From that standpoint, it's hard to make a decision on the death penalty. If you execute 14 murderers per year and 2 are innocent, that's a net-win if abolishing the death penalty results in 3 or more additional murders per year; the blood of the innocent is on your hands either way, so you should try for less blood. If the death penalty is a non-factor in gangland, then maybe you shouldn't bother.

      It gets more complex if you consider inmates not slated for execution as "innocent" when a murderer penned in jail for life realizes he's not getting any worse punishment, and so proceeds to stab someone in the throat because he doesn't like the guy. Then you have America: if you're convicted of child molestation or just possession of child pornography, you can go to jail for 8-40 years (!); and while in jail, someone will rape and murder you, and we as Americans tend to find this a good thing. Is that not as much blood on your hands as an execution? I wouldn't call it justice; if it were justice, we would be proud to do it by our own hands.

      Then you have the common opinion that we can put someone in jail for 15-25 years and then letting them out because we found out they were innocent. That doesn't absolve you of DESTROYING THEIR LIVES COMPLETELY. For many, even a few weeks in prison will destroy their finances and their careers, leaving their lives in shambles; a few short years destroys all your social connections; and after the 10, 20, or more years many inmates spend on death row before actually getting executed (average is over 15 years), you've missed your dating window, your career building window (in case you wanted to start a career or rebuild your broken one), and really have been excluded from everything people consider "living". Prison is cruel and unusual punishment, and the long prison sentences people swear you can just release an innocent man from after you realize you were wrong cannot be undone by giving the guy a house and a car and some money as an apology.

      But, you know. Moral victories. Even if you concretely proved that abolishing the death penalty in a given area directly caused some number of additional innocent murders per year, people would claim they're at least innocent of those murders and have washed their hands of the affair. No responsibility for the problems you cause as long as it's someone else's hands holding the knife. That's why nobody will admit jail time is disproportionate to almost all crimes; we can't even get them to admit 15+ years mandatory SERVED is ludicrous for minor possession of drugs.

    29. Re:Corporation trumps government by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Congratulations on the slippery slope Godwin.

      There was no due process in the camps. There was no due process with the kill squads. Why not hold the prosecutor responsible? He's the one pressing the charges, displaying evidence, and pushing for the death penalty, after fall.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    30. Re:Corporation trumps government by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Things may get complicated when Pzizer wants one of their drugs put one the States' Drugs approved for Medicaid list, and they've opted not to sell to that States Dept. of Corrections, most inmates are on Medicaid so DoC is a big customer.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    31. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So could a hammer manufacture require that no hammer are sold to black people because they are more likely to be used to kill someone. In the same vein Pfizer is saying that noone in the bureau of prisons can have their drugs, because they could be used to kill someone.

    32. Re:Corporation trumps government by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      And I get voted down for asking how refusing to sell based on a political or ethical view is different in this case vs gay marriage.
      Frankly I am anti death penalty but I am pro law.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    33. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      No I don't. But where I live it would be illegal for a company to discriminate on those grounds. Here we have a whole class of areas where discrimination is not permitted such as race, religion, political affiliation, age, disability, relationship status, status as a parent / carer, spent convictions, trade, or association.

      So in Australia the baker would not be allowed to discriminate based on not wanting to make a cake for a gay couple if they also made cakes for straight people getting married. They would, however, be within their rights to refuse to make cakes for any weddings.

    34. Re: Corporation trumps government by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Actually, you are only half correct. The objection is not to selling a cake or anything to anyone. The objection is to having to show up at the ceremony and coordinate with it.

      You see, unless you are holding your wedding at white castle or something, the wedding cake is not made and completed for someone to swing in on the way like for a birthday party or something. The layers are transported separate and assembled on site and the decorations and finishing touches are done on site but often due to the heat, needs to be done last minute else it melts into a mess.

      If the wedding cake was as simple as someone stopping by and loading it into a prius, the objections wouldn't be there. This is evidenced by the long standing commercial relationship with the gay people who filed suit I

    35. Re:Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or that patents for drugs needed for executions will not be enforced by the state in this case, allowing other companies or the state itself to manufacture the drug while letting the original company do whatever it wants.

    36. Re:Corporation trumps government by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      That is the law not morality. So if you can refuse to conduct a sale that is completely legal for moral reasons they why should you not be allowed to refuse sales based on any moral reason?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    37. Re:Corporation trumps government by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      That would be nice. After all, the purpose of patents is to allow the inventor to sell the invention without competition (for a while). If the inventor refuses to sell the product (for any price), someone else might as well do it.

    38. Re: Corporation trumps government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bakers opposed to gay marriage refuse to sell cakes for purposes of a gay marriage. If a straight intermediary was buying the cake for a gay couple, the baker would still object. Conversely, they'd be cool with a gay intermediary buying a cake for a straight couple.

      The purpose, and not the person, is what these people are objecting to.

      Replace "Gay" with "Black" or "Jewish" and see if it passes the smell test

      The bakers opposed to Jewish marriage refuse to sell cakes for purposes of a Jewish marriage.

      Nope, doesn't pass.

    39. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      I don't really know how to answer this as I feel it is kind of self obvious, but I'll try to explain my rationale.

      All of the things that are listed as things you are not allowed to discriminate on would result in sections of the community being ostracised. This will cause your community to begin to break down and will cause social tension. It therefore is in the interests of the greater good of your society to not have that type of discrimination, and depending on your moral compass that alone is moral justification.

    40. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      No but a hammer manufacturer could require that no hammer is sold for the purpose of killing someone.

      Also Pfizer are not refusing to sell to the bureau of prisons, they are refusing to have their drugs used in executions and will not sell them if they are for that purpose. This means that there will be a contract around the sale of the drugs.

    41. Re:Corporation trumps government by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      You may be forced to buy a particular class of product by law. But unless there is only a single monopoly provider you would not be forced to purchase it from a particular company. Ie you may have to have medical insurance but there is no reason you couldn't refuse to buy that from "Evil Insurers R Us"

  8. An alternative to the death penalty by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Informative

    Put them in jail instead.

    It's cheaper and a wrongful conviction can be reversed.

    The majority of countries no longer have the death penalty.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    1. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Put them in jail instead.

      Where do you think they are while waiting to be executed?

      More so, slow walking of executions ends up imposing a sentence "no rational jury or legislature could ever impose: life in prison, with the remote possibility of death"

    2. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where you're going with that, but the phrase you quoted argues against your position.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    3. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) Why?

      b) Can we do this to the people these states are illegally buying lethal injection drugs from?

    4. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget jaywalking. Gotta burn to death for jaywalking too.

    5. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why it would be more expensive to house a person than to get rid of them regardless of the reason. The drugs can't cost that much and they're otherwise just regular prisoners.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    6. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why it would be more expensive to house a person than to get rid of them regardless of the reason.

      1. Death penalty prisoners are usually housed separate from other prisoners. Usually, the conditions are better than other prisoners get. There is more security, because these people have little to lose.

      2. All those appeals cost money.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    7. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Jumunquo · · Score: 1

      The short answer is lawyer fees.

      More spent to defend the defendant, longer trial, and the thing that most people don't know - the taxpayer ends up paying for all their appeals if they are on death row. But life in prison, we are not on the hook for that.

    8. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Punishment severity should match the severity of the crime.

      Naturally, there are some moral implications to consider. But here's another:

      If you have the same 'maximum severity' for crimes that aren't equal, you end up in a situation where a criminal is encouraged to escalate a crime if there's even a slightly better chance of not getting caught.

      For example, if rape and murder are punished that same - you're effectively encouraging rapists to become murderers too. They have nothing to lose by killing their victim, and a dead person won't go to the police.

    9. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by valdezjuan · · Score: 0

      b) not only that but I would include the state officers (law, appointed, whatever) that are trying to procure the drugs. They are just as culpable as the dealer.

    10. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Put them in jail instead.

      On my planet we just fly them out to the nearest black hole and kick them in. It's essentially free, since we already make regular trips to dump our trash. Plus there's no escaping - even their ghosts can't get out for the trillions of years it takes the black hole to evaporate.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    11. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The costs of executing someone in as humane way as possible are high. And also, people watching the execution in modern western countries are revolted and appalled by watching a gory execution (head shots, botched electrocution, badly executed hanging).
      So lethal injection (after the victim's sedation really) was the preferred method of all the alternatives. With lethal injection, many quality control tests/checks have to take place before administering the injection.
      The reason that the death penalty is cheaper than life imprisonment in China is because of the limited opportunities for appeal, and the cheap (read inhumane) execution methods.

    12. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why a rapist should have his dick cut off and a murderer his head off.

    13. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has been proven many times over the death penalty serves no deterrence factor. In fact, based on statistics, it seems to increase crime rates.

      Victims have two choices, so long as they are required to pay taxes. Choice one is to pay less tax, by which I mean lifetime imprisonment as that is cheaper. Our they can pay more tax for a macabre show. That's choice two.

      Just because government can exempt itself doesn't solve the dilemma. If it did WWII war trials would have been awful easy.

      Your arguments just don't hold weight. Admit it, you feel good when you see someone you've determined to be scum suffer. Your only disappointment is that the deaths are not agonizing enough for your non-fictional gorn fetish.

    14. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I don't really get how, say, a bullet can cost more than keeping someone in prison for 50 years or so.

      WWII war trials were done by the victors. Both the USSR and Nazi Germany committed atrocities and killed millions of people (Stalin was not as picky about his victims though - anyone could be sent to the gulag, starved to death or just shot - it did not depend on being or not being a certain race or ethnicity), however, nobody put Stalin on trial. If the Nazis won the war, the communists would have been on trial.

      Even today, what is "legal" is dependent on the government. Whatever Kim does in DPRK is legal in DPRK and if other countries do not like it, they can impose sanctions (which just means that they refuse to trade or reuse to allow entry for certain people) or try to come by force (having nuclear weapons helps to prevent that).

      My belief is that criminals should suffer for their crimes and certain crimes (rape and murder for instance) should automatically mean that the perp will never be free again. I think that this is one of very few things the USSR had it right - when you got sent to jail it was not a hotel and you would not get such a nice cell as Breivik - you the conditions were bad and the ones with long prison sentences (or life in prison) were forced to work in dangerous environments (better that criminal dies than a hard working Party loving citizen).

    15. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Legal costs. The process for execution always involves lots of appeals - the defendant has nothing to lose, so they'll turn to every trick in the book and delay the process for as long as is possible. The prosecution can't risk losing because there is major and unacceptable political fallout to condemning a person to execution who is late found to be innocent, so they pull out all the stops and commit however much money and manpower it takes. The resulting legal fight can run for a decade and cost millions.

    16. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The extra cost is generally associated with needing extra security (what does someone knowing they are going to die have to lose) and extra legal work and appeals. Condemned prisoners get a lot more appeal opportunities due to the severity of the situation.

    17. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Sorry to be a pessimist, but has anybody ever really had a "major and unacceptable political fallout" due to executing a person that later turned out to be innocent?
      These types of legal murders apparently happen a couple times a year, yet few people seem to lose their job because of it.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    18. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by johannesg · · Score: 1

      Can it be reversed? How do you give back lost time, a stolen life? Letting someone walk free at age 70 after they were removed from society and locked in a box at age 20 is not "reversing the punishment", it is in fact making it a thousand times more bitter.

      And as for the death penalty being more expensive, I'm not sure what creative accounting nets you that result, but it cannot possibly be true. Bullets are cheaper than housing and food for an entire human lifespan.

    19. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by dwillden · · Score: 1

      The only reason it costs more is because a death penalty sentence, which used to take between 10 and 15 years tops to carry out, is now averaging over 20 years of lengthy and expensive appeals, often over the most ridiculous of minutia. Yes a strong an robust appeal process needs to exist because tragically mistakes have been made. But the process is too drawn out, allowing repeated appeal climbs up the ladder to the Supreme Court. One or two complete appeal cycles then get it done.

      There are many on Death Row who are likely to die of old age before they get to the actual execution.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    20. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > My belief is that criminals should suffer for their crimes and certain crimes
      You are an insane sociopath.
      Your views would be more acceptable in the 19th century.

    21. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Sadly it is true. And the appeals are the reason. Both a life sentence and a death sentence cost roughly 30k a year to house them The expensive part is the multiple, expensive appeals over every little bit of minutia. The actual execution is not what adds to the cost, nor is being housed on the so-called Death Row. But the repeated trips all the way up to the Supreme Court, all on the tax payer's dime are the real expensive part of the process.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    22. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      He who rapes a 5 year old, you should not get a work-free life in a nice hotel room (that he cannot leave for a while) with a TV and game console.

      If your criminals live in better conditions than poor (but law abiding) people in other countries (or even your own country), I think there is a problem.

      There was a bank robbery done by a homeless man - he asked for 1 euro or somesuch. Just so he could go to jail for bank robbery and live in a nice cell (and have three meals a day) instead of on the street.

    23. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You might want to base your opinion on capital punishment based on evidence, not gut feeling. The fact you think the USSR's stance on this was a good idea should tell you something about just how lacking your thought processes are on this subject.

    24. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

      One thing that other people replying to you have touched on, but haven't said explicitly, is that the appeals for death row inmates are automatic. Even if the person sentenced to death wants to die sooner, they can't.

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    25. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I think that any country or government is doing some things right and some things (sometimes a lot) wrong.

      The USSR did a lot of things wrong (not the least of which is incarcerating or killing people who did not deserve it). However, it did some things right, for example, making 11 year school education mandatory, allowing everyone (not just those of "noble" families) to get college/university education and the education was free.(depending on their grades and exam results), no need for student loans.

    26. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only "cheaper" because of bleeding heart liberals who let them live for twenty years longer than they deserve. Talk about setting up a strawman argument.

      Still, there is a very simple solution for the insane, bleeding heart liberals among us: instead of locking up murderers, build them an entire city with a minefield around it, with houses for each murderer, and the bleeding heart liberals can go and live with them, providing them with all the free food, healthcare, housing, clothes, clean water, sewage systems, electricity, heating, transport, telephone system, etc. that they need. That sounds fair, doesn't it.

      Oh wait... the bleeding heart liberals want EVERYBODY to have to suffer because of their insane ideology.

    27. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yes a strong an robust appeal process needs to exist because tragically mistakes have been made. But the process is too drawn out, allowing repeated appeal climbs up the ladder to the Supreme Court.

      And yet, we still execute people wrongfully.

      One or two complete appeal cycles then get it done.

      So just to be clear, although our current appeal system is inadequate, because we know we have executed the innocent under it, you want it to be more inadequate? Is that because you love murder?

      There are many on Death Row who are likely to die of old age before they get to the actual execution.

      This only further illustrates the injustice of even having a death penalty. It does not strengthen your argument. Telling someone you're going to murder them and then keeping them in a small box for the rest of their lives with that hanging over them is cruel by any reasonable standard.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Evidence? What kind of evidence? A person's support for the death penalty is simply part of their beliefs, not a matter of fact that is swayed by evidence.

    29. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      a)
      1. Deterrence. If even one person decides to not rape or murder because of the risk of getting slowly burned to death then it's good.

      It is never the prospect of the punishment that makes someone think twice about committing crimes.

      It is the prospect of being caught that makes them think twice. If they estimate their chances of not being caught are good, they commit the crime. You can make the punishment as gruesome as you like, it makes no real difference.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    30. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      The short answer is lawyer fees.

      More spent to defend the defendant, longer trial, and the thing that most people don't know - the taxpayer ends up paying for all their appeals if they are on death row. But life in prison, we are not on the hook for that.

      Right so the answer to that is to avoid the lengthy and expensive process of prosecution. Accusation should be enough, then its off to the nitrogen-filled room.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    31. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

      Put them in prisons.
      Make them do work. Sell said work.

      Community work is regular, but producing can be done even better.
      Just make sure said production is done in clean-room tier levels of preparation so nobody tries to sneak dodgy stuff in to products, or take them out like used to happen in prison workshops.

      Most criminals just want to be able to work, but simply do not get the chance because of hugely ridiculous demands for experience and lack of self-esteem and/or confidence, and the biggest one of all: government forcing them in to a blackhole they cannot escape.
      So many random trials of people hiring criminals from prisons have been a massive success for most of the inmates. Especially by building up their confidence on top of that.
      Quite a few of those people grew up to become popular and even celebrated, like Gordon Ramsay, fantastic chef, awards in cooking, TV chef shows, and he has himself repeated said work on hiring people from bad backgrounds with much success. Top guy.

      A lot of people would be happy with a (good!) prison setup where it is literally a hotel for workers. Work, all your meals, a decent small room to live in, shared communal space. That includes non-criminals! I'd go for it.
      It is common in a few countries where people stay at work dorms during the week to save on travel costs.
      Work dorms were very popular back in early last century, but for some reason they fell out of fashion. They are still common in medical and educational, but not the greater working industries.
      Perhaps because building costs ballooned due to density driving the prices up.
      As towns grew more dense, prices generally have always ballooned, which is a huge problem when they reach city status, where prices become so horribly high that you need to be making a small fortune in order to live there.

    32. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      The prospect of the punishment does make someone think twice about committing crimes.

      Take a petty crime for example, speeding. Increasing the fine does help reduce the speed for some people. After all, the cop with a radar could be hiding anywhere.

      Also, I read that in some country, petty crimes like theft were punished by flogging (a good punishment in my opinion - hurts the same whether you are rich or poor and does not fill up prisons with petty criminals), but it was later abolished in favor of a fine or prison sentence. The rate of that crime went up.

      Or, let's say that rape or murder was punished only by a fine, there would be way more instances of it than there are now. After all if I hate someone enough, I may save up the money required for the fine and stab him.

    33. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      After you've been in jail for 3-4 weeks, your finances are all fucked up. You've lost your job, your income stream has stopped, you're still paying rent or loans (mortgage, car), and your career is probably damaged.

      After you've been in jail for 2-3 years, your social connections are all fucked up. Any relationship you had is over. Your friends have moved on. Your family has started thinking about you as an accessory. Reclaiming these things is tough. Your finances are also drained, your career is horribly mangled, and you've lost your house and car and anything else you once owned. You've been desocialized, adapted to a life where you're always threatened, where you have to align with potentially-violent gangs to survive, you've potentially been raped, and you've probably performed sexual favors for protection.

      After 15-25 years of jail time (average time an inmate spends on death row in the US is over 15 years), you've passed the career development, relationship development, and family development part of your life. Actually being a human being is now hard; you're an artifact and a burden on society. Your ability to integrate back into society is hampered, as you've spent decades in a prison environment. Your friends have long forgotten you; and your family is uncomfortable at having to associate with you, because you're a stranger yet they're obligated to recognize what they logically (but no longer emotionally) understand as family under the social pressures society places on them.

      Tell me again how a wrongful conviction can be reversed.

    34. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Dead men tell no tales.

    35. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what of the wrongfully convicted? We know it happens, so you have to address the issue. Well?

    36. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      The prospect of the punishment does make someone think twice about committing crimes.

      Take a petty crime for example, speeding. Increasing the fine does help reduce the speed for some people. After all, the cop with a radar could be hiding anywhere.

      Yes, that would be under 'prospect of being caught'.

      In reality, its a combination; prospect of being caught plus punishment, but prospect of being caught is really the determining factor. People have a high prospect of being caught for speeding, so the punishment deterrent kicks in. For other crimes the prospect of being caught is the main factor.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    37. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Deterrence. If even one person decides to not rape or murder because of the risk of getting slowly burned to death then it's good.

      Aside from the fact that it doesn't work, if we kill even a single person who was innocent (and we know there are many), then we become just as bad as murderers.

      2. Not having the families of the victims (or victims themselves if they are still alive) paying for food and clothes of the criminal who will be let out of jail anyway.

      What they're paying for is keeping the criminals locked up, but I suppose the same rationale would apply to thieves and jaywalkers, right? We don't want to pay to keep them alive, so we'll let them die slowly of exposure and starvation?

      3. As for the method - well, the guys who raped a girl then locked her in the trunk of their car and set the car on fire didn't care for "humane execution", why should I care for their well being (other than ensuring there is lack of it)?

      Because we're not monsters?

    38. Re:An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      What they're paying for is keeping the criminals locked up, but I suppose the same rationale would apply to thieves and jaywalkers, right?

      A thief is expected to get out of jail someday (and is also expected to have learned his lesson and to stop stealing). A murderer will (should) not get out of jail ever.

    39. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I don't really get how, say, a bullet can cost more than keeping someone in prison for 50 years or so.

      WWII war trials were done by the victors. Both the USSR and Nazi Germany committed atrocities and killed millions of people (Stalin was not as picky about his victims though - anyone could be sent to the gulag, starved to death or just shot - it did not depend on being or not being a certain race or ethnicity), however, nobody put Stalin on trial. If the Nazis won the war, the communists would have been on trial.

      Even today, what is "legal" is dependent on the government. Whatever Kim does in DPRK is legal in DPRK and if other countries do not like it, they can impose sanctions (which just means that they refuse to trade or reuse to allow entry for certain people) or try to come by force (having nuclear weapons helps to prevent that).

      My belief is that criminals should suffer for their crimes and certain crimes (rape and murder for instance) should automatically mean that the perp will never be free again. I think that this is one of very few things the USSR had it right - when you got sent to jail it was not a hotel and you would not get such a nice cell as Breivik - you the conditions were bad and the ones with long prison sentences (or life in prison) were forced to work in dangerous environments (better that criminal dies than a hard working Party loving citizen).

      Let me get this straight; you believe that wacky tyrants and horrible despots can write laws at will criminalizing anything they want to; and criminals should suffer for transgressing against the laws. Basically, that's just a recipe for random torture of random individuals. And you're philosophically OK with it.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    40. Re: An alternative to the death penalty by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      No, I am just saying that the government of a country can write any laws it wants and they will be "legal" in that country. That is, there is no such thing as "government doing something illegally" - a member of a government can do something illegal, but not the government as a whole. The next government may declare actions of the previous government illegal and punish the members, but that would be the actions of the new government.

      I did not say that I was OK with torture of random individuals. The suffering must match the crime. However, if the law in DPRK says that it is illegal to insult Dear Leader, then, if you live in that country, you better not insult him, unless you want to be punished for it.

      Can laws be stupid? Yes, absolutely. Still, unless the people get together and change those laws either by democratic processes or force, the laws are still in force.

      And there have to be (probably unpleasant) consequences for breaking a law, otherwise, the law is pretty much non-existent. If a homeless man rapes somebody, you probably should not put him in a nice room with a nice bed and three good meals a day, he may consider it a reward, not punishment.

  9. one of two conditions has arisen. by nimbius · · Score: 1

    1: Millennials are now old enough to assume power of and chair their respective pharmaceutical boards, and they simply dont care for execution.
    2: Pharmaceutical corporations realize the likelihood that with the rise of Millennials and ever encroaching data breaches, they could be implicated in human execution and would face nontrivial political and legal backlash in the coming years.

    either way, well played.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:one of two conditions has arisen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or a 3rd option.

      The amount that their chemicals were used for executions had to be small. So small as to be a rounding error on an executive excursion.

      So they can say they are doing something. Sell the drugs to a 3rd party who then do the deed any on their behalf and they 'look good'. Remember this is one of many companies that manipulated the Oxy studies. They found the stuff was even more addictive than they originally believed and they buried it. Then when it was about to go generic they 'tweaked it' to make it 'safer' (no change) so they can continue with the glorious monopoly they had.

      I do not buy for a second they are doing this to be good. LOOK good maybe. But to actually be good? That gets in the way of profits.

    2. Re:one of two conditions has arisen. by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Probably mostly 2, though it's probably not millennials, but rather the EU. They've made their opposition to capital punishment well known and have already applied export restrictions to their own pharmaceutical companies regarding execution drugs. The next logical step is to apply them to non-EU companies that do business in the EU, under pain of being shut out of their market. "Oh, you want to sell them drugs for executions? Fine, we're not going to buy anything from you. Oh, and those patents You can forget about them.".

      And furthermore, making drugs for execution is not a high-profit proposition. You're talking about maybe 50 sales per year. That's nothing and is not worth annoying a supranational organization containing over 700 million potential customers.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:one of two conditions has arisen. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      3: They are neck deep in politics and are pushing the agenda of the person they are donating to.

    4. Re:one of two conditions has arisen. by dwillden · · Score: 1

      You grant a lot more power to the Millennials than they are due.

      The decision was by the CEO and current board. All mostly Boomers with maybe a few Gen X'ers. You also assume a universal opinion within said generation. And imagine legal backlash that does not exist.

      Simply put those at the top decided they don't like the death penalty (which is their choice). And acted in a way they can control to stop it. It won't stop it, other methods are available and will be used instead.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    5. Re:one of two conditions has arisen. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You missed one:

      3: The world has been moving away from capital punishment for decades, and some companies don't like being the ones providing drugs to a government to kill its own people against their will.

      Naaah. Just blame the spectre of "Millennials" - much easier.

  10. Inert gas asphyxiation? by TheSync · · Score: 1

    What ever happened to good old inert gas asphyxiation?

    It is an alternative execution method by law in Oklahoma.

  11. Corporate conscience by axewolf · · Score: 1

    Who is "we"?

    How can a corporation have feelings?

    Why is this utterly ridiculous kind of false expression accepted in society?
    I get that people love to invent reasons to feel good and lap this shit up, but surely there are enough people of intelligence around that could point out that this is completely false and insidious in intent?

    Corporations exist to nullify the interference of human emotion in business. That is their cardinal purpose. So be offended at falsehoods like this if you value your humanity.

    1. Re:Corporate conscience by DaHat · · Score: 0

      Who is "we"?

      Those speaking on behalf of the corporation?

      How can a corporation have feelings?

      It doesn't, it simply is a legal person.

      Why is this utterly ridiculous kind of false expression accepted in society?

      Because you are confused.

      Corporations exist to nullify the interference of human emotion in business.

      False.

      Corporations exist to reduce individual livability & allow a group of people to act as one under the law.

    2. Re:Corporate conscience by Imrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The real explanation, execution drugs make up a tiny amount of profit for them, the advertising and good image they project by making this declaration is far more valuable.

    3. Re:Corporate conscience by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How can a corporation have feelings?

      Because it's made up of people. Strange that you don't actually understand that. Here's an experiment for you.

      1) Start mowing lawns for some spare cash.

      2) Notice that you're good at it, and start landscaping for a living.

      3) Recognize that there are some good reasons to start functioning as a business, instead of having customers make out a check to you personally.

      4) Take on bigger customers now that you're not just Jimmy with a lawn mower.

      5) Grow to the point where you've got employees, a fleet of trucks, and customers who really rely on your services.

      6) On the advice of your lawyer and your accountant, incorporate your business so that it can do things like continue to operate even after you get hit by a bus, and so that if one of your employees crashes a tractor into a client's propane tanks and burns down their dentist's office, you don't lose your house.

      7) Congrats, you are now in charge of an Eeeeeeevil Corporation.

      8) Look in the mirror. Did you lose your "feelings?" Do you suddenly not care about all of the things you used to care about?

      Yeah. Funny about that. Consider forming your world view by talking to actual people instead of assuming that all businesses are run by comic book villains.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:Corporate conscience by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Corporations exist to reduce individual livability & allow a group of people to act as one under the law.

      More the latter than the former.

      Jeff's construction simply would never have the resources to put together a mega project like a large bridge, skyscraper, or dam, or what if Jeff died midway through the project and the company was dissolved and diluted through his heirs? And is anybody on the hook.. since the construction contract was with Jeff personally and he's dead now...

      A corporation exists primarily to allow people to pool capital and provide 'governance' for it that can survive an individual.

      Everything else is 2ndary.

    5. Re:Corporate conscience by axewolf · · Score: 0, Troll

      WOW

      Is this what you do? Whenever you are confronted with an opposing point of view you put on your blinders, ignore the other point of view, and recite your simple toy version of a point of view? Why do you bother responding? Do you think you're doing some kind of good deed by evangelizing your dogma? You are making absolutely no effort to reach the other side. You are simply wasting your time mentally masturbating and giving yourself credit for human interaction.

      You're a joke. Really.

      If you think a corporation like Pfizer is comparable to any small business you have a serious problem with your ability to think. Like cognitive dysfunction.
      Have you never noticed that patterns take on unique characteristics as they scale? Are you seriously denying this fundamental law of reality?

      Get help.

    6. Re:Corporate conscience by axewolf · · Score: 1

      Corporations exist to reduce individual livability & allow a group of people to act as one under the law

      And how is that not a subset of nullifying interference of human emotion?

    7. Re:Corporate conscience by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      > Corporations exist to reduce individual livability I hope that's a typo and you mean liability.

    8. Re:Corporate conscience by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Troll

      Is this what you do?

      You asked a snarky, ignorant question intended to push some agenda of yours that characterizes the people who own and run businesses as being unable to have feelings. That was an absurd posture on your part. I gave you something to react to. Feel free, instead of resorting to lazy ad hominem, to point out where in the chain of events you just read the transition occurs to the person running a business no longer being able to have feelings. Be specific, or consider no longer trying to paint that whiny Corporations Are Evil Robots image you were lamely hoping to get across.

      If you think a corporation like Pfizer is comparable to any small business you have a serious problem with your ability to think

      So, at what point do the people running the business stop being people? Be specific. Is it when the company is made of 2 people? 20? 200? 2,000? 20,000? Be specific about the number, and by what mechanism you think that the people making the decisions are no longer themselves, no longer able to consider their values, and no longer have feelings. Explain why one person LESS than the size you think is some robotic non-feeling entity is still able to have feelings, but one person MORE than that number no longer is. Talk about what happens when that one extra person comes on board. No, really. See if you can coherently explain your theory, and how it applies to one person more, and less than the number that you think scales human decision making from one mode to another.

      The truth is, you don't even know anybody who has successfully launched and grown a business to the point where there are hundreds or thousands of people involved. Because you can't rely on a personal experience of having sat down and actually talked to someone like that, you're conjuring up a fantasy notion of who they become, so that you have something abstract to hate, since that what makes you tick. That whole "get help" BS? It's called "projection," dude. Look it up.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    9. Re:Corporate conscience by dbIII · · Score: 1

      How can a corporation have feelings?

      You are looking at it as a monolith instead of an organ that obeys the will of a very limited number of people who have feelings to express. Sometimes it's only a single person using a corporation to express their will.

      Corporations exist to nullify the interference of human emotion in business

      Usually only in fiction. That's a common line to take for those who wish to evade responsibility though. It's kind of like blaming the gun and not the person who lined up the shot and pulled the trigger.

    10. Re:Corporate conscience by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Stupid Windows 8.1 browser not doing spell checking...

    11. Re:Corporate conscience by DaHat · · Score: 1

      And how is that not a subset of nullifying interference of human emotion?

      Given humans are fully in control of the corporations, not unlike humans are in control of governments and street gangs... and humans are emotional creatures... how exactly do you nullify interference from human emotion?

      When a company donates money to disaster relief... is there no emotion involved at all? Not even when the CEO sees bodies floating in a river?

      When politicians pass a law criminalizing an activity which many dislike is there no emotion involved at all? Not even when they tearfully pledge to outlaw ____?

      When a street gang decides to go to war with another street gang... is there no emotional involved at all? Not even when the brother of the leader got shot?

    12. Re:Corporate conscience by axewolf · · Score: 1

      humans are emotional creatures

      No no nononono no NO
      What is with this phrase? Why is it popular? Probably because it's the biggest easiest fucking cop-out in history.
      Animals are emotional creatures.
      What distinguished human from animal is reason. Humans are rational creatures by nature.
      Some humans act like animals and are completely immersed in their emotion at all times, always ignoring purpose and never reasoning. Not so much the ones that are successful. Not so much the ones that command corporations. And the nature of an industry-leading corporation reflects this.

      The only emotions that are valuable are those that support purpose. All other emotion is precluded by rules, protocol, and other concrete structures. The stuff of corporations. Humans are not fully in control of corporations. That is why corporations exist: to hold humans to their purpose, to their goals, so they do not err so much. To allow the best sides of each personality of power to attract each other to aid their common purpose. To create accountability. To create objectivity.

      *drops the mic*

    13. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The feelings mentioned in step 8 remains with the person precisely because he did not transfer them to the corporation at step 6.

    14. Re:Corporate conscience by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      instead of assuming that all businesses are run by comic book villains.

      With *fabulous* front yards.

    15. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The truth is, you don't even know anybody who has successfully launched and grown a business to the point where there are hundreds or thousands of people involved. Because you can't rely on a personal experience of having sat down and actually talked to someone like that, you're conjuring up a fantasy notion of who they become, so that you have something abstract to hate, since that what makes you tick. That whole "get help" BS? It's called "projection," dude. Look it up.

      The truth is, you don't know anybody who has denied any and all moral culpability for actions simply because it was more convenient than feeling guilt.

      Either that, or you don't want to admit it happens. Actually, that's more likely. Hundreds or thousands of people involved? No, it happens in Kindergarten. Or maybe sooner, depending on the point of being able to articulate your thinking.

      Maybe your experience varies, but a conscience? Lots of people lack that, amorality is all too common.

      And that's demonstrated in this, Pfizer is making a token show towards not supplying execution drugs? So what? That's few dozen people a year, at most.

      What about Pfizer's litany of real sins? Their actions in Nigeria, their marketing towards Doctors, their actions in India?

      No, no, don't buy this song, it's a useless canary distracting you from the vultures.

      Don't believe their self-effacing biographies either. They're bastards, and given the choice between a nickel and your life, they'd take the nickel. Think I'm wrong?

      Then look around yourself, look at your self.

      See what you'd do.

    16. Re:Corporate conscience by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      The truth is, you don't know anybody who has denied any and all moral culpability for actions simply because it was more convenient than feeling guilt.

      What does that have to do with whether or not that person happens to work for a business (as opposed to being self-employed, or a charity case, or anything else)?

      Maybe your experience varies, but a conscience? Lots of people lack that, amorality is all too common.

      Again, in the context of my comment and the comment to which I was responding, what does that have to do with how they are employed, or the size of the company they own or work for? How does that support the GP's people-who-run-businesses-can't-have-feelings BS assertion?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    17. Re:Corporate conscience by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      The real explanation, execution drugs make up a tiny amount of profit for them, the advertising and good image they project by making this declaration is far more valuable.

      Exactly. It's simply signaling, nothing more. They stand to lose a few bucks per year with this policy.

    18. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you holding the Microsoft corporation liable for your spelling mistakes now?

    19. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The truth is, you don't know anybody who has denied any and all moral culpability for actions simply because it was more convenient than feeling guilt.

      What does that have to do with whether or not that person happens to work for a business (as opposed to being self-employed, or a charity case, or anything else)?

      Maybe your experience varies, but a conscience? Lots of people lack that, amorality is all too common.

      Again, in the context of my comment and the comment to which I was responding, what does that have to do with how they are employed, or the size of the company they own or work for? How does that support the GP's people-who-run-businesses-can't-have-feelings BS assertion?

      Hmm, I don't know why you are asking these questions. Maybe you missed this line:

      "Hundreds or thousands of people involved? No, it happens in Kindergarten. Or maybe sooner, depending on the point of being able to articulate your thinking."

      I think it addresses your questions well enough. Was it unclear? I believe that bit would get the meaning across, though obviously the rest of the post further expounded to you on the issue.

      In case it didn't, I am challenging your bringing up the subject of personal experience, as your representation of it was something I found lacking. If you want to talk about something somebody else said, perhaps you can quote them, I quoted the parts of your post I found objectionable, and made my objections. Your relations on personal experience did not accurately reflect upon humanity.

      Hopefully you now understand what I said better.

      If not, please give me some feedback related to the contents of my words so I can further address whatever the problem is.

    20. Re:Corporate conscience by DaHat · · Score: 1

      No no nononono no NO
      What is with this phrase? Why is it popular? Probably because it's the biggest easiest fucking cop-out in history.

      Probably because for non sociopaths... it's true?

      Animals are emotional creatures.

      We call them 'instinctual' creatures, not emotional.

      What distinguished human from animal is reason. Humans are rational creatures by nature.

      Except for the fact that reason is not automatic. We are capable of rational thought, it does not mean we always use it... just ask my 4 year old, who like most kids under about 7 is somewhere along the sociopath spectrum.

      Some humans act like animals and are completely immersed in their emotion at all times, always ignoring purpose and never reasoning.

      Wow, a factual statement from you at last... I bet this isn't going to last.

      Not so much the ones that are successful.

      Note your use of the term 'not so much'... and not 'not at all shared with', so you acknowledge at least some successful people are driven by emotion, interesting.

      Not so much the ones that command corporations. And the nature of an industry-leading corporation reflects this.

      Organizations you have demonstrated yourself as not understanding the actual functioning of.

      The only emotions that are valuable are those that support purpose. All other emotion is precluded by rules, protocol, and other concrete structures. The stuff of corporations. Humans are not fully in control of corporations. That is why corporations exist: to hold humans to their purpose, to their goals, so they do not err so much. To allow the best sides of each personality of power to attract each other to aid their common purpose. To create accountability. To create objectivity.

      On it's own, there is nothing wrong with having some sociopathic leanings, and your belittling the nature of human emotion does out you as being on the less intelligent side of the sociopathic spectrum.

      *drops the mic*

      Given the push back against your illogical and only self reinforcing views, I really think you should reconsider that drop... like many other things.

    21. Re:Corporate conscience by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      If you want to talk about something somebody else said, perhaps you can quote them

      Well obviously my comments are part of a thread, in response to someone's rhetorical assertion that the people who form and own businesses can't have feelings ("How can a corporation have feelings?"), and that indicating otherwise is beyond the pale ("Why is this utterly ridiculous kind of false expression accepted in society?"). I responded to those silly questions with a rhetorical exercise asking the person holding that view to point out when people who happen to run a corporation can no longer have feelings because they are now running a corporation. That was unambiguously his point, and I called him on it.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    22. Re:Corporate conscience by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      The feelings mentioned in step 8 remains with the person precisely because he did not transfer them to the corporation at step 6.

      He's still running the corporation! He's making the exact same value judgments he did when he was mowing lawns without the "Inc" or "LLC" after his landscaping business name. Why would his feelings change just because he's structured his business in a more professional way? Please be specific. Did he love puppies while being a sole proprietor, but now that he owns an incorporated business, he doesn't care if puppies live or die? What are you saying?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    23. Re:Corporate conscience by axewolf · · Score: 1

      hahahahahhaha oh god
      you want an encore?
      *picks the mic back up again* .sociopath
      What is that? How is it defined? How do you make one? What is the specific pattern of events that causes one to reach this threshold? I mean seriously. You are a dang old joke. You can't use a label like that in your right mind. It's just a word that some people use for other people when they lose hard and can't handle the process of reflecting on their own failures. Just like all ambiguous labels. It is little small men who talk like this. Why don't you just call sociopaths 'doodybumbum peepants'? .We call them 'instinctual' creatures, not emotional.
      WHO IS WE???? WHY???? What is the connection between instinct and emotion? You are implying with your tone that there is none. .Except for the fact that reason is not automatic
      Actually it is. Everything you do in life is training your personal machine. If you enforce reason, you will become reasonable automatically. If you enforce emotion, you will become emotional automatically. The proportions of such responses according to various events depends on the pattern of enforcement of both.
      Simply put: to be rational or irrational is a choice. The ancestors that brought humanity to where it is chose reason. Those with free will choose reason.

      i can't even address the rest of your garbage. You're brainless. Absolutely brainless.
      If it's not what is popular, you won't adopt it. You won't try it. You will fight it tooth and nail.

      DO you have a brain? .brendansstudentloans.com
      I don't think that's ironic. Yeah, you probably don't.

    24. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to talk about something somebody else said, perhaps you can quote them

      Well obviously my comments are part of a thread, in response to someone's rhetorical assertion that the people who form and own businesses can't have feelings ("How can a corporation have feelings?"), and that indicating otherwise is beyond the pale ("Why is this utterly ridiculous kind of false expression accepted in society?"). I responded to those silly questions with a rhetorical exercise asking the person holding that view to point out when people who happen to run a corporation can no longer have feelings because they are now running a corporation. That was unambiguously his point, and I called him on it.

      Yes, all of this is what you've contended before, but my reply has been to you and your words.

      In particular:

      The truth is, you don't even know anybody who has successfully launched and grown a business to the point where there are hundreds or thousands of people involved. Because you can't rely on a personal experience of having sat down and actually talked to someone like that, you're conjuring up a fantasy notion of who they become, so that you have something abstract to hate, since that what makes you tick. That whole "get help" BS? It's called "projection," dude. Look it up.

      Notice how I didn't quote the other person, I quoted you, and I don't see any need to reply to what you've quoted, as you didn't ask me about anything, so I will simply restate my position which is, as I previously said to you, that being amoral is quite common in society, and thus I called you on it, since you brought up personal experience yourself, but with a flawed perspective, one I find to be quite incorrect, because knowing people? Will tend to reinforce the opposite conclusion instead.

      Like I already advised you, you don't need to look anything up, just look around you. They're already there.

      Or you can buy these crocodile tears, overpriced at a tenth the fee!

      Where is Diogenes and his lamp?

    25. Re:Corporate conscience by DaHat · · Score: 1

      i can't even address the rest of your garbage. You're brainless. Absolutely brainless.

      Coming from you... that means... absolutely nothing.

    26. Re:Corporate conscience by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      I liked that read, even though in real life you don't start with a lemonade stand and end up as a billionaire or whatever the story is :)

    27. Re:Corporate conscience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really that much advertising? Sure, here on Slashdot this is considered a good move, but is their target demographic pro-death penalty? Are their shareholders pro-death penalty? (Their non-US customers, non-US shareholders and their US medical profession customers are not, which is probably why Pfizer chose to stop)

    28. Re:Corporate conscience by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Is this what you do?

      You asked a snarky, ignorant question intended to push some agenda of yours that characterizes the people who own and run businesses as being unable to have feelings. That was an absurd posture on your part. I gave you something to react to. Feel free, instead of resorting to lazy ad hominem, to point out where in the chain of events you just read the transition occurs to the person running a business no longer being able to have feelings. Be specific, or consider no longer trying to paint that whiny Corporations Are Evil Robots image you were lamely hoping to get across.

      If you think a corporation like Pfizer is comparable to any small business you have a serious problem with your ability to think

      So, at what point do the people running the business stop being people? Be specific. Is it when the company is made of 2 people? 20? 200? 2,000? 20,000? Be specific about the number, and by what mechanism you think that the people making the decisions are no longer themselves, no longer able to consider their values, and no longer have feelings. Explain why one person LESS than the size you think is some robotic non-feeling entity is still able to have feelings, but one person MORE than that number no longer is. Talk about what happens when that one extra person comes on board. No, really. See if you can coherently explain your theory, and how it applies to one person more, and less than the number that you think scales human decision making from one mode to another. The truth is, you don't even know anybody who has successfully launched and grown a business to the point where there are hundreds or thousands of people involved. Because you can't rely on a personal experience of having sat down and actually talked to someone like that, you're conjuring up a fantasy notion of who they become, so that you have something abstract to hate, since that what makes you tick. That whole "get help" BS? It's called "projection," dude. Look it up.

      You mean, like would a corporation hypothetically produce cars that don't meet mandated emission standards and tweak the software to game the testing, and flounder around trying to find who is responsible for making that decision? Can't happen! Just because it's a Limited Liability Corporation doesn't mean the individuals who decide "We must produce a car with this basic design that meets the standards and I won't take no for an answer" and the guy trying to implement the decision who realizes "If this is doable it's not doable by this company, what was that Kobayashi Maru thing again?" might each feel like they're only doing what they have to do and neither foresees the end result, let alone takes full responsibility for it, the way either of them would if he was the only person in charge of running the operation, designing the car, building it, and testing it.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    29. Re:Corporate conscience by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Corporations exist to reduce individual livability & allow a group of people to act as one under the law.

      More the latter than the former.

      Jeff's construction simply would never have the resources to put together a mega project like a large bridge, skyscraper, or dam, or what if Jeff died midway through the project and the company was dissolved and diluted through his heirs? And is anybody on the hook.. since the construction contract was with Jeff personally and he's dead now...

      A corporation exists primarily to allow people to pool capital and provide 'governance' for it that can survive an individual.

      Everything else is 2ndary.

      Then why do they persist with this limited liability thing if the whole point is to organize massive projects? In China you see executives getting executed all the time for decisions which injure the public, here they lose their jobs, get a golden parachute, and get picked up in another corporate executive job when the fuss dies down,
      I do see your point about organizing massive projects needing an actual organization, but the insulation from responsibility is not required for that function.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    30. Re:Corporate conscience by vux984 · · Score: 1

      The limited liability intention is essentially that the investors that pool capital into an corporation aren't risking capital that isn't invested in the corporation. The notition that they can only lose at lost all what they put in is pretty reasonable on the face of it and a principle worth preserving.

      But its also been abused, and it needs re-working. The main solution; and you raised it in your post is that the top level executives aren't charged criminal for their actions. And the shares in the company belonging to C level execs should be fair game for seizure. Their options cancelled. There salaries and capital gains and dividends subject to garnishment, etc.

      Corporations don't break the law. People do. Go after the people. The corporations should be liable for the financial harm they cause. But individuals need to be punished as part of the justice system.

      There is nothing about the limited liability nature of the corporation that should prevent Cxx level executives being hauled up on criminal charges. That just shields investors personal assets from forfeiture to pay the corporations debts.

      C level execs on down the line should be jailed, regularly, for their actions. That would clean corporations up pretty fast.

      The other part to fixing corporations is getting rid of 'too-big-to-fail'; and cap the size of a company. Agressively force it to split into smaller companies the minute it reaches particular fraction of the GDP or something.

  12. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "In keeping with our mission of serving our patients, Pfizer also announces an immediate reduction in pricing of all of our drugs......NOT!"

  13. ha! PR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    like its drugs don't kill dozens each and every day!

  14. I live in Florida by bangular · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When the cost argument started to gain traction here in Florida, Rick Scott just tried to make it cheaper to kill people by speeding up the process. It's not about justice, it's about revenge.

    1. Re:I live in Florida by jordanjay29 · · Score: 2

      They're removed from society. They can't commit another crime against people like your daughter. That's not justice enough for you? You need revenge?

    2. Re: I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because an eye for an eye is not worthy a civilized society. Everyone actually deserves a new chance and the rehabilitation to become a better person.

    3. Re:I live in Florida by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Why do you think that not getting to live out your life for decades after you've

      Because living in a box for the rest of your days with nothing but your regrets and no freedom is not a life, it's being alive. What if the death peanalty is an escape for people who commit those types of serious crimes. Have you considered that they want to die and that their way of acheiving notoriety is by commiting grusome crimes?

      Have you considered that a punishment far worse than death is to let them rot in a cell for the rest of their days with only their sick thoughts to keep them company and no way for them to act out their impulses, even suicide? Or beaten up everyday for the rest of their live because the *other* prisoners despise them.

      Is it justice that the family of that girl gets to wake up every morning and look at her empty chair at the table before they head off to work to spend a bit of each day working so that some of their income can buy for her killer the breakfast she'll never again have?

      Nothing is justice to someone in that scenario. Justice is that the criminal will never do it again, that regret will tear them apart from the inside out, unless they are a sociopath who is simply removed from society to live their days out in frustration, forgotten and discarded. What if the father decided to save the breakfast money to pay someone to beat the shit out of the asshole once a month for the rest of their life. You ignore the possibilities that the death penalty denies.

      You're presuming that the justice system and policing is perfect, it isn't. Imagine the burden you have placed on that same family when the justice system returns to them and says "uuhhh, we executed the wrong person, but we're sure we will execute the right person *this time*. - do you want to watch - again. How about the criminal who set someone up for a crime so they get executed in a by-proxy state sanctioned murder? Two crimes for the price of one.

      How does brutalizing the familiy of the murdered girl bring their girl back? Have you asked the families what *they* consider justice to be? What about those who want to forgive the killers so *they* can move on?

      Spending decades providing food, medical care, education, housing, and entertainment for the person who, say, killed your mom with a knife in the gut in order to steal $5 from her purse - that's your idea of justice?

      No, just shelter, food and medical because it is saying that the society is stronger than the individual commiting the crime and risen above the calls for vengance. You judge a society by the way it treats it's most despised.

      Have you considered that some criminals view the death penalty as a *justification* for commiting serious crime? By reasoning "if the society is prepared to kill, then it is ok to kill and if it is ok for society to kill with brutality, then it is ok to kill with brutality."

      The death penalty is a flawed institution, because it forgets that innocent people actually get imprisioned and that justice and policing isn't perfect. Sure I'm going to get a lot of critcizm for pointing these veiws out however if the death penalty was such a perfect detterent, why are so many people waiting to be executed for those crimes? All it shows is that society is failing in so many other ways whilst unable to rise above the need for vengence. That society lacks the strength of character of it's convictions.

      Which brings us to the innocent person awaiting execution, they are the true victim of this revenge mentality. If just one innocent party is executed why aren't all those that call for the death penalty guilty of murder subject to the same penalty of death. Where is the innocent persons chance for redemption after they have been executed?

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    4. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They're removed from society.

      No, they're not. Or are you imagining some sort of dungeon they're thrown into until they starve to death after a few weeks? If you're not, then consider that such prisoners are actually part of a large culture within the facility where they're detained. Their needs are seen to by large numbers of people who are very much part of the wider society, and the wider society very much has to spend part of every day producing the goods and services needed to keep that person alive. If they were removed from society, then society would have none those burdens. And no, for many people, it's NOT enough to lock them up, because they still get to live and carry on and read novels and watch movies and be fed and cared for - possibly for several decades - while the person whose life they snuffed out cannot, and the lives impacted by that are forever robbed of what was taken. And yet they get to support the person who took that life, every day.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re: I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So, the person who has shown a willingness to break into a house, tie somebody up, steal their stuff, and then on the way out the door, decide to carve them up to death just for fun, and then hang around until the kids get home from school and kill them too ... and then expresses zero remorse for those actions - that's the person you expect to turn back out onto the street for another chance? No? How about in another year? Maybe ten years? What if that person has a history of doing such things repeatedly, and has never shown remorse or any inclination to change his ways? Which new chance is it that you think is going to make that person someone you'd send back out into the world?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need revenge?

      Yes I do need revenge. If the state would allow it, I'd pull the trigger, flip the switch or pull the lever to execute the killer personally.

    7. Re: I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we must do it for the family, then turnaround is fair play. A proven wrongfully executed man's family should be able to choose a member of the victim's family to execute to restore the balance, don't you agree?

      Otherwise they have to live with t the knowledge that there is a family or there that had someone from their family killed just so they could feel better about some unknown person having murdered one of their family members.

      These execution as justice circlejerks could end up really long. Might have to kill off entire family trees to reduce the suffering.

    8. Re:I live in Florida by jordanjay29 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And that's why we don't let victims play judge, jury or executioner.

    9. Re:I live in Florida by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      So you are arguing that allowing them to read novels and watch movies is wrong?

      Then this is about revenge, because inflicting additional suffering upon them achieves absolutely nothing to protect the public or to rehabilitate the offender, and it's not even an effective deterrent. You just want to see bad people made to suffer because it lets you feel a little bit better.

    10. Re: I live in Florida by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      That sounds like the actions of someone with serious mental illness. Sane people may commit murder, but generally not for fun.

    11. Re:I live in Florida by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Yeah? Then why do people still spend so much time avoiding jail if it was such a pampering experience?

      As for the rest of your argument - how is that different from someone who accidentally killed someone else, like in a car crash? Would you claim they similarly shouldn't have to be "pampered" by the victims and that they should be executed to alleviate the pain of their loss too?

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    12. Re:I live in Florida by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      And what if it turned out it was a wrongful conviction? Would you then allow that person's family to kill you out of revenge? After all, in this case, they KNOW who killed their family member.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    13. Re:I live in Florida by johanw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And then your state executes my relative who later is proven to be not guilty. For revenge, I will execute the judge(s) and executioner who murdered my relative. Is that OK with you?

    14. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The saddest part is that you do not even seem to be ashamed of being a bad person.

    15. Re:I live in Florida by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

      We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system. People don't get what they deserve, they get what they get. Life is unfair. Executing the person who raped and murdered your child won't bring her back, or make any suffering she felt any less so.

      The rest of us are supposed to be better than the people who commit murder.

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    16. Re:I live in Florida by sjames · · Score: 1

      And in ten years when new evidence shows that someone else did it, you will happily dig them up, resurrect them and then help them get re-established in society, right?

    17. Re:I live in Florida by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Your logic is infantile to say the least. Executions make the victims pay even more than just imprisonment. You are preaching revenge, not justice.

    18. Re:I live in Florida by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Why do you think that not getting to live out your life for decades after you've (for example) raped a child and cut her to pieces while she's alive isn't justice?

      Why do you think that murder is justice?

      Spending decades providing food, medical care, education, housing, and entertainment for the person who, say, killed your mom with a knife in the gut in order to steal $5 from her purse - that's your idea of justice?

      My idea of justice is a world that doesn't create quite so many rapists and murderers to begin with, and your comfortable life is predicated in part upon their creation. In order for you to flourish, others are made to suffer. It's the American way! Or, you might say, the Capitalist Ideal! A is A!

      People don't rape or murder because they feel good inside. And your happiness is predicated upon their unhappiness. Your lifestyle raped that child. Mine, too. Now you want to just murder someone because you find the natural consequences of that system difficult to live with. That doesn't make you a thrifty spender. It makes you a murderer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And that's why we don't let victims play judge, jury or executioner.

      Very well put. If someone killed my daughter, then yeah, I would want that person dead and I'd want them to suffer. But I am still very much opposed to the death penalty. The justice system should be based on reason, not emotion. It is not a revenge system, or at least it should not be.

    20. Re: I live in Florida by dave420 · · Score: 1

      As has been pointed out, you seem to not understand the idea of mental illness. Luckily we don't live in the 1700s any more, so ideas like yours can be discarded without any loss to society. No one is saying send them back out into society - you are assuming that, probably because the false dichotomy is the only way your idea makes any sense.

    21. Re:I live in Florida by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Nope. Any other questions?

    22. Re: I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Such people are routinely found to be NOT mentally ill, just cruel SOBs who really don't care what you think about what they do. Mental illness, per se, is rarely behind brutal killings (especially those of multiple people). We don't really consider sociopaths to be mentally ill, just a real pain in the ass. Some of them, just like some portion of people in almost every condition, harbor a world view that makes killing other people something they think they can get away with, or which they simply feel entitled to do. Lengthy article in today's WaPo, actually, addressing this specific issue (conclusion: most mass killers are NOT mentally ill).

      If the husband and wife who killed all those people in San Bernadino recently had been caught instead of shot full of holes, would you consider them to be mentally ill, rather than simply having chosen (as they proclaimed, and after lengthy planning and preparation) to be serving their religion?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    23. Re: I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would actually be a decent idea. If they aren't prepared to die then they shouldn't be killing.

    24. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Executions aren't expensive. Pointless decades-long appeals processes are expensive.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    25. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      What if the death peanalty is an escape for people who commit those types of serious crimes. Have you considered that they want to die and that their way of acheiving notoriety is by commiting grusome crimes?

      There are some (very infrequent) situations where that is clearly the case. But the vast majority of such offenders use every opportunity to drag out their appeals process and use every opportunity (even when they've completely confessed to the hideous crime that got them the death penalty!) to put that day off. Surely that doesn't surprise you. They'd rather live - even in prison - than not. They didn't give someone ELSE that option of course - they considered that innocent person's life to be disposable, even as they'd like to preserve their own. It's that very perspective on their part (generally, the demonstrated lack of remorse) that earns them the jury's fairly rare death penalty decision.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    26. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      Your juvenile notion that being prosperous can only happen when someone else is made miserable ... oh, never mind. You know that's complete crap.

      When someone decides to kill other people essentially for sport, they have waived any claim to continued life on their part. If they were killed on the spot while committing (or trying to) such an act, it would be considered entirely reasonable. Murder is what they are doing. Delivering to them the consequences of their assertion that they think other people should die for their amusement or trivial gain is not murder. It's consequence, and a direct result of their own assertion about the value of their own life, including their own. Demonstrate that you think you have the right to end someone else's innocent life for the sake of ending it, and you've abandoned any claim on your own future existence. Demonstrate to a jury that you have no remorse or prospect for redemption, and there's no reason they shouldn't take you at your word.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    27. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      We rarely impose the death penalty. That's the whole point. It's reserved for people who demonstrate not bad driving, but for purposefully and without remorse ending someone else's innocent life. Juries wrestle under very difficult conditions to make the distinction between someone who is, in your example, a bad driver ... vs. someone who is an unnredeemable, remorseless, purposeful taker of other people's lives.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    28. Re:I live in Florida by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Your juvenile notion that being prosperous can only happen when someone else is made miserable ... oh, never mind. You know that's complete crap.

      That's not what I said, and your reading comprehension skills are complete crap. I suspect you should have your knee looked at, you seem to be a jerk. What I said is that the lifestyle is predicated upon, not must be predicated upon. And in fact, it is. That it need not be this way does not change the current condition.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    29. Re:I live in Florida by flopsquad · · Score: 2

      It is rare to find someone so adept at building strawmen out of freshly picked cherries and emotional appeal.

      Here and elsewhere in the thread, you conjure up horrifying scenarios based on the most depraved exemplars you can imagine. Who could argue that such remoseless, rape-and-murder-for-sport serial mutilators deserve to live?!?! (And stowed away in the same rhetorical boat: Who could argue against torture if it was the only way to prevent a nuke from exploding under a stadium full of people in 4 minutes?!?!)

      You blithely sail right over all of the actual arguments about the death penalty. Some of them may not interest you, like whether or not the DP succeeds at meeting any of the consequentialist aims of our penal system, or the philosophical implications of state-sponsored killing, or whether the rejection by many DP proponents of more humane methods like N2 asphyxiation is attributable to base bloodthirst and desire to inflict suffering.

      But you ought to at least consider your statistically insignificant (but headline grabbing) worst of the worst thrill-killer examples in the context of the hundreds of people who have been exonerated either from death row or posthumously after being wrongly executed.

      Revenge feels great when the world you envision is your own personal little Minecraft server where The Very Bad Man is Irredemably Evil and you are 100% Certain He Did It. I wonder if it feels so great when you have to account for the very real possibility of throwing the switch on an innocent person not so different from yourself.

      --
      Nothing posted to /. has ever been legal advice, including this.
    30. Re:I live in Florida by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      But your previous comment doesn't address any of that. You concern was about the relatives of the victim and because they suffered the affects of the death, the person who did it should die for it. And you were more concerned that people had to pay to keep them in "cushy" conditions.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    31. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need psychiatric help, since you can't understand why a parent would want to kill the bastard who murdered their child. What's it like being a sociopath? Your sociopathy is obvious - you believe that the victim of a murderer is as 'good' or 'bad' as the murderer themselves. Thus you are a sociopath, and your PRETENCE that you actually care about other beings has become obvious...

    32. Re:I live in Florida by fonos · · Score: 1

      Are you arguing that an appeal for someone on death row is pointless? You do realize their have been numerous people put to death that were innocent completely.

    33. Re:I live in Florida by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Oh psh, if they displace the photographs and artifacts from their lives, they'll forget about their dead kid in a year or two. The memories of the events will remain, but the emotional attachment from a constant connection to visual cues of presence will fade. The social connection will fall away and they'll have a bad experience to retell as a story, just a warning to others.

      Don't be so melodramatic.

    34. Re:I live in Florida by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      If killing people is so expensive, where do poor people get the financial backing to commit murder?

    35. Re:I live in Florida by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Well, no. We'll dump them on the street into a ruined life, where they'll struggle to survive, develop new mental problems on top of the ones they got from prison, and possibly commit new crimes due to sheer inability to either survive (because of poverty not exempting you of the need to eat) or socially integrate (because you're fucked up in the head from prison). Then we'll put them back in jail in a year or so; or hopefully they'll die in an alleyway first and be not-our-problem.

    36. Re:I live in Florida by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We *are* better than the people who commit murder. There's 300 million of us to share the cost of roads, and we all pay pennies; there's *one* murderer, and he takes *all* of the blame for his crimes.

    37. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your parents beat you as a child didn't they?

    38. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      But your previous comment doesn't address any of that.

      Because that goes without saying. How can anyone be even involved in this discussion and not be aware of the basic facts? Nobody in the US is sentenced to death for causing an accident in a car. But they might be for deliberately aiming a car at their hated ex-spouse, running her over, backing up to do it a few more times, and then expressing no remorse in front of the jury.

      Surely you can understand the difference between a person who negligently fell asleep behind the wheel and kills someone, vs. someone who without remorse plans and sets out specifically to kill someone? I suppose there are surviving family members who might prefer that a poor driver responsible for a death get the ultimate punishment, but I doubt you'd ever find a jury to agree.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    39. Re:I live in Florida by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Are you arguing that an appeal for someone on death row is pointless?

      No, merely that it IS pointless in many cases. Especially the automatic appeals that are generated not by the convicted murderer or his counsel, but by state (or federal) law even when guilt is not only 100% established (say, video showing the unmistakable suspect beating someone to death) and when the murderer acknowledges committing the crime.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    40. Re:I live in Florida by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If you're cool with executing innocent people, I suppose you would see the appeals process as pointless.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    41. Re:I live in Florida by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If they're killed in the act, (a) we know they're guilty, and (b) the act of killing has an immediate beneficial effect, since you can't legally kill someone in the act unless they're being a dangerous threat.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    42. Re: I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just can't get away from the emotionally charged arguments can you? You must be a libertarian. When facts and data are used, you discard them and turn to emotional pleading and murder-porn style scapegoats.

    43. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the judge at least. We should hold our legal system more directly accountable.

    44. Re:I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to forget about people wrongly convicted, of which the number is most certainly not 0.

    45. Re: I live in Florida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why we have life without parole, or multiple consecutive life sentences.

    46. Re: I live in Florida by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      So, the person who has shown a willingness to break into a house, tie somebody up, steal their stuff, and then on the way out the door, decide to carve them up to death just for fun, and then hang around until the kids get home from school and kill them too ... and then expresses zero remorse for those actions - that's the person you expect to turn back out onto the street for another chance? No? How about in another year? Maybe ten years? What if that person has a history of doing such things repeatedly, and has never shown remorse or any inclination to change his ways? Which new chance is it that you think is going to make that person someone you'd send back out into the world?

      What do you know about such things? Do you have any actual experience with such people? Your imaginings exist within your own mind only. For all either of us know, he'll find Jesus in prison and come out and become a priest who works with inner city kids to keep them out of gangs.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    47. Re:I live in Florida by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      they considered that innocent person's life to be disposable, even as they'd like to preserve their own.

      Indeed, so how can we consider the lives of those who are wrongly accused, and you cannot deny it doesn't happen, disposable? I am certainly not implying that the guilty not be punished, I am saying those who are not deserve to have their lives valued as well, otherwise you are not only allowing the guilty to go free but add another victim of their crime.

      The death penalty is obsolete because justice can never be perfect.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  15. How noble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Of course factories and sales in some of the worst human rights abuse countries in the world are okay. I guess doing business with evil regimes is okay as long as they don't use your products for things you don't approve of. Let's see them stop all sales in China as a protest over Chinese government abuses. Or Turkey. Or Singapore. Or Russia. Not going to happen. This is fake morality. They don't care about right and wrong. It is just convenient, safe, and politically correct to attack the death penalty in the Unites States.

    http://www.fiercepharma.com/partnering/pfizer-building-plant-saudi-arabia

    http://www.ibtimes.com/saudi-arabia-executions-2016-beheadings-may-set-new-record-year-amid-western-pressure-2347203

  16. This is nuts by Trachman · · Score: 0

    So when the prisons start using firing squads, they will be accused of infringing the eighth amendment ("which bars unusual or cruel punishment").
    However the same bullets lawfully fired from the same weapon in any other situation would be ok.

    Could it be possible that in the next century, accused killers will be killed in their natural sleep, when their REM sleep phase is at the deepest sleep phase? Killing will be done by the overdose of the laughing gas.

    What the heck. Death penalty used to be cruel for a reason. As a deterrent to the other people, an entertainment and indelible memories of what happens for those who kill other people.

    1. Re:This is nuts by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      It's vengeance, pure and simple, and while I understand why people want it, if it is going to continue, it shouldn't be wrapped up in the language of crime prevention, because it doesn't prevent crimes. Allowing capital punishment to be justified in this way is simply a way to make it more palatable, and state-sanctioned killings should be anything but palatable.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:This is nuts by Dorianny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      It's vengeance, pure and simple, and while I understand why people want it, if it is going to continue, it shouldn't be wrapped up in the language of crime prevention, because it doesn't prevent crimes. Allowing capital punishment to be justified in this way is simply a way to make it more palatable, and state-sanctioned killings should be anything but palatable.

      Whether anyone is deterred by the possibility of a State Execution while contemplating an act that carries the Capital Punishment is debatable, once on Death Row they sure try mighty hard to get stay alive

    3. Re:This is nuts by LiquidAvatar · · Score: 1

      I agree that state-sanctioned killings are disgusting. What about state-sanctioned euthanasia? In addition to being an option for terminal patients, perhaps offer euthanasia as an option to convicts who are undergoing life sentences. I'm not personally sure which is crueler; taking someone's life or forcing them to live in a prison for decades, where they can not contribute to society or even take care of themselves in any realistic fashion.

      --
      It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.
      -Voltaire
    4. Re:This is nuts by Orgasmatron · · Score: 2

      You might want to look up "recidivism" in a dictionary, and then maybe some research into the "recidivism rate", which is not zero.

      In a universe that contains "recidivism", but does not contain "zombie crime spree", execution must, by the definitions of the words involved, deter and prevent crime.

      Q.E.D.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    5. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not a deterrent for you, if you think it is not a deterrent for every single person...

    6. Re:This is nuts by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      It's not zero, so it must be 100, right?

      Luckily, the universe doesn't work on definitions of words, but statistically.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    7. Re:This is nuts by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Recidivism is often caused by the conditions in (and after) prison. The better the conditions in prison, and lower prison sentences, the lower the recidivism rates. So the "tough on crime" people are making crime worse.

    8. Re:This is nuts by dwillden · · Score: 1

      That 8th amendment argument has been attempted and failed. It's not popular but the firing squad is a method that has withstood constitutional challenge, thus Utah's choice to reinstate it as a method if injection components are not available. More states ought to look to it. It's quick and sure.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    9. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how many lives does it save? Is it more than the number of innocent people incorrectly executed? Comparing murder rates between countries with the death penalty with those without it, suggest that the deterrence isn't that great to justify capital punishment.

    10. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's hard to say whether capital punishment is a deterrent, because the number of executions carried out is very small compared to the number of murders, even in the states that perform the most executions.

    11. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      ...

      I wonder what your take on stricter gun laws might be...

      "The threat of execution won't deter violent criminals, but if we make guns illegal, THAT WILL!!!"

    12. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital punishment isn't supposed to be a deterrent. It is a prevention. It prevents re-offending by preventing the person being executed from living long enough to re-offend. In cases where the crime is serious enough to warrant it, this should absolutely be an option. (Serial killings, for example.)

    13. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has anyone released from prison ever committed a crime?
      Has anyone IN prison ever committed a crime?
      Has anyone that has been executed ever committed a crime?

      The prosecution rests.

    14. Re:This is nuts by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      In the world of moronic comments, yours may be the most moronic yet.

      Study after study shows first of all that punishments that come long after the crime will not prevent other crimes. For any punishment to be an effective deterrent, it must come quickly. So, to my mind, if you want capital punishment to have a hope in hell of deterring anyone, have a swift trial, and then take the guy out into the courtyard and do the deed. Having a trial months or even a year or more after the criminal is caught, and then leaving the person on death row for years or even decades so removes the punishment in temporal terms from the criminal act as to utterly negate any deterrent effect.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    15. Re:This is nuts by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Locking someone up prevents them from killing to, so even if that's its purpose, it's a failure.

      But as I said, that isn't capital punishment's purpose. These are all just rationalizations. Capital punishment's purposes are revenge and catharsis. Everything else is just layers of justification to make people feel better.

      Frankly, I think executions should be shown. In fact, I think it should mandatory for the residents of every state where capital punishment watch at least one execution every five years. If the cause of capital punishment is so incredibly righteous, then how could this be bad?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    16. Re:This is nuts by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      It's vengeance, pure and simple..

      Not vengeance. It's justice. At least, if we're talking about a multi-murdering monster like, say, Ted Bundy, or John Wayne Gacy, then it's removing a piece of living, breathing feces off the planet so it can do no more harm, ever, nor unjustly cost anyone to support. Deterrence/prevention would of course be great but serial murderers aren't exactly in touch with reality anyway. That's not why this is done.
      Consider this scenario:
      1. Serial murderer lives two lives: has his own small family by day, but at night goes out and regularly preys on and kidnaps girls in their late teens, rapes them, murders them, and hey, maybe rapes them again.
      2. Young girls are someone's cherished daughter, or sister, or friend. Her violent and debasing end causes unimaginable amounts of pain, horror, and grief to parents, family, friends, etc...
      3. Serial murderer kills several more girls before being caught, tried, and with overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence against him, found guilty.

      IMO, here's the difference between justice and revenge:

      * Revenge: So that the murder fully feels the extent of the pain and suffering he's caused, in great anger, his own daughter is arrested, and then in front of him, butchered in the same manner as his victims. Weeks pass. Only then is the murderer is executed after having time to process and suffer the loss of his daughter. This is revenge, where an innocent girl (the murder's daughter) has been hurt in the name of an eye for an eye. Unfortunately, in olden days, vigilante mobs might've done something like this.
      * Justice: The serial murderer, who has no respect for life (other than his own or maybe his hypothetical daughter, who knows), who has murdered repeatedly, has thus forfeited his own right to live through taking other innocent lives where no provocation was extant; furthermore, he is a clear and present danger to society with no redeeming values and absolutely no chance of true rehabilitation. Instead of rewarding him by giving him 3 decent meals a day, access to a gym to ensure his good health, television rights, and quite possibly a lucrative book deal and media attention, while using tax money to support him, his person is eradicated from the planet so that he can positively never hurt anyone again, nor sponge off of them. The monster is simply gone. There is no joy, but there is relief in the certainty that he can harm no more (should a jail break occur, even).

      FWIW, I feel capital punishment should only apply in cases where:
      A) the evidence is incontrovertible, and
      B) the murderer is not someone who committed murder as, say, a one time act of passion (shit and mistakes happen), but is a proven calculating nutcase who has murdered helpless people repeatedly for the sheer joy of it, and who shows little to no remorse, a hollow shell who is devoid of empathy for his fellow man.

      Now go ahead and say I or the executioner in this case is no better than he, and I'll tell you that's absolute nonsense. He, unlike his victims and his own daughter, is NOT innocent of unprovoked murder. I would never, ever, advocate killing someone who was innocent of murder themselves, nor even just a "bad person". Serial murderers, OTOH, do just that, they target innocent people. They are inhuman, irreversibly broken. So in extreme cases, I would support capital punishment though it's still ugly. No, I would not like to be the one who presses the button or flicks the switch. But then I wouldn't want to be a cop either, but someone has to do it.
      I do tend to think though that the states that use CP tend to overuse it just because they allow it.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    17. Re:This is nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. This is why we must extend the death penalty to children, and for crimes as small as misdemeanors. Kids will know better than to skip school if a police officer can empty a magazine into them and leave them to rot in the street. What are you, a Stalinist?

    18. Re:This is nuts by Beeftopia · · Score: 1

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      So, lesser punishments like incarceration and fines are deterrents, yet the harsher sentence of capital punishment is not? That's not credible.

    19. Re:This is nuts by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      Erm...

      "Tough on crime" actually correlates with lower sentences, not higher. In typical liberal fashion, you are blaming the opposition for the results of your own policies. (And I apologize if you are not actually liberal, but merely using their tactics. I'm too busy to check your post history tonight.)

      Lower sentences also correlate with pro-active policing, and by policing, I mean the whole operation, from cops to prosecutors to judges to jailers.

      Imagine a hypothetical statistical quantity, c, which isn't measured directly, but correlates well with criminality, police involvement, prosecution, etc. This is similar to g which isn't measured directly, but correlates well with IQ tests, education success, job success, etc.

      c has some sort of distribution, probably similar to a normal distribution, with a big hump in the middle and small tails on each side. The big hump is normal people, the left tail is saints, and the right tail is cold blooded, casual multiple murderers.

      The crime debate can be summarized as where to put the c threshold for police involvement (and remember, I mean the whole justice system, not merely physical policemen). To the right, and only the most serious crimes are prosecuted. To the left, and more minor infractions are too. The "tough on crime" guys want it a little to the left of where it is now, the liberals want it a little to the right.

      By pushing the c threshold to the right, only the most serious offenders get into the system. Thus, higher sentences, worse conditions (who cares how murderers in cages live?), more recidivism upon release.

      Also note that this is a totally static analysis. A person turning to crime has a much better chance of straightening out if they encounter serious pushback from the justice system early on, when their crimes are still minor. A guy can come back from a year in prison for grand theft auto, or attempted robbery. Not so much after 20 years for home invasion with rape and/or murder.

      If you want to see this in action, check on any state or major city that has been under Democrat rule for more than a few decades. Hilariously, those are the same places where other Democrats are wagging their fingers because their prisons are nearly all black men. I leave the racial mystery as an exercise for the reader to solve. I'll give you a hint that it is the same reason why the Fields Medal is so biased.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    20. Re:This is nuts by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I must just be too old. I remember the resurgence in "tough on crime" in the '80s under Reagan. I lived it. 3-strikes, life for an ounce of weed, and other things were pushed through as "tough on crime", and anyone that pushed for the "more policing, less punishment" schemes were liberals who were accused of being "soft on crime".

    21. Re:This is nuts by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      You may indeed be too old, since you appear to have memories of things that never happened. For example, no states enacted 3-strikes laws in the 80s. Which means, of course, that none came during the Reagan era, nor even during his Vice President's single term as President.

      On the other hand, 24 states enacted such laws during Bill Clinton's Presidency, in the '90s.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    22. Re:This is nuts by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Except, of course, capital punishment isn't actually a deterrents.

      It's vengeance, pure and simple, and while I understand why people want it, if it is going to continue, it shouldn't be wrapped up in the language of crime prevention, because it doesn't prevent crimes. Allowing capital punishment to be justified in this way is simply a way to make it more palatable, and state-sanctioned killings should be anything but palatable.

      Whether anyone is deterred by the possibility of a State Execution while contemplating an act that carries the Capital Punishment is debatable, once on Death Row they sure try mighty hard to get stay alive

      Judging from the last few such cases here in Connecticut, they seem to request an end to appeals and that they be put to death at least as often as they try to get out of it.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    23. Re:This is nuts by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      You might want to look up "recidivism" in a dictionary, and then maybe some research into the "recidivism rate", which is not zero.

      In a universe that contains "recidivism", but does not contain "zombie crime spree", execution must, by the definitions of the words involved, deter and prevent crime.

      Q.E.D.

      Except where the existence of the death penalty has a causative effect on the murder rate. For instance, where the perp recognizes that he has to kill all the witnesses so he won't get the death penalty after one person gets killed. Or where they decide the best approach is to kill everybody up front so as to reduce the odds something goes real wrong during the crime and they end up captured and on death row. Or they get the clear message that it's ok to kill people who deserve it, and they can think of a few. Etc etc etc. See also "Why you can't end terrorism by just killing all the terrorists"

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  17. Except: it does by Texmaize · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the 1970's, the flower child generation spawned flower child researchers who used social "science" to arrive at flower child conclusions that they wanted. We are still feeling the effects of this bad research in many areas. This era was the plague that will not go away. Many of these are often discussed on these forums, I am looking at your gender wage discrepancy. There are many others.

    If you stop and use the smell test a bit, tie to you own life. Threat of punishment is always in the calculus of a crime. If you steal that post it note, and the worst you get is a cold hard stare from an HR lady, you may do it. If it leads to your immediate termination, you leave that note the hell alone.

    The death penalty will not deter a crime of passion. That is absolutely true. However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you.... Its a little different.

    Anyways, people resist these old studies, and they often find different conclusions. Here is one on this:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

    --
    "Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
    1. Re:Except: it does by famebait · · Score: 1

      However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you.... Its a little different.

      Yes, I can see it all so clearly now:

      "Well, I plan on getting caught, so if that would get me executed I would never do it. But if it's just three times life of being raped every day in an American hellhole prison hey, why the hell not?"

      Think you nailed it, there.
      Fucking barbarians.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    2. Re:Except: it does by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      The death penalty will not deter a crime of passion. That is absolutely true. However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you.... Its a little different.

      A murder typically is a crime of passion. Even in cases where people spend a lot of time thinking, they can still involve some kind of passion, like losing custody of the children. In the remaining cases where a person spends time thinking about a murder and it is not a "passion", they likely are psychopathic. None of these cases are deterred by imagining a needle waiting for you. Almost no one in their right mind would murder.

      Other cases of murder may involve accidental killings while engaging in other illegal activities like burglary. The death penalty would not deter these because they are reflex actions. And you won't deter burglary either since burglaries are symptoms of poor local economics.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    3. Re:Except: it does by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Severity of punishment multiplied by chance of capture.

      If the prospect of life or most of their life in prison doesn't deter someone, it's because they either do not care about the rest of their life at the time (crime of passion) or they are confident they will escape capture. Either way, the threat of execution is not going to be any more effective a deterrent.

    4. Re:Except: it does by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 2

      Nice theory, but the way people make decisions is pretty complex and influenced by many factors. Research does not support your conclusion: https://www.dartmouth.edu/~cha...

      --
      17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
    5. Re:Except: it does by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Simple observable fact shows that the death penalty is no deterrent. States like Malaysia have the death penalty for drugs smuggling; yet smugglers still get caught. Empircal evidence says you're just a bigot looking for an excuse for your revenge fantasies.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    6. Re:Except: it does by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      In the 1970's, the flower child generation spawned flower child researchers who used social "science" to arrive at flower child conclusions that they wanted. ...

      If you stop and use the smell test a bit

      So, you reject research because ad hominem, and prefer your highly scientific smell test instead. Not an entirely solid foundation for your argument.

      Threat of punishment is always in the calculus of a crime.

      It's a very small part of the equation. Most crime is committed because the person is desperate, has little to lose, isn't thinking clearly or feels they have no choice. Countries that have got rid of the death penalty and other extremely harsh punishments have not seem crime rates rise as a result. In fact of all the western nations with it, the one with the death penalty is one of the worst for murder rates.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Except: it does by dave420 · · Score: 1

      If only there were loads of countries with different governments in different parts of the political spectrum who have had decades of no death penalty. We could use their statistics to figure out if what you are guessing is actually true...

      Just admit it. You want to kill people. You find the idea of vengeance much more appealing than that of justice.

    8. Re:Except: it does by jbssm · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's why we have much less crime and violent crime in Europe and still don't have capital punishment. I guess it's the same excuse you give to legally penalize drugs in the UAS when in some countries in EU we effectively proved that making its consumption legal is the best way to decrease its use and addiction.

    9. Re:Except: it does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The death penalty simply does not deter these people.

      Honestly, something that MIGHT deter people is if they got caught, they were put through perpetual torture for the rest of their life.
      Coupled with feeding these people as healthily as possible to extend their torture as long as possible.
      There are many ways to torture people painfully but without impacting their ability to live for a very long time.
      Actually, there was even that one possible avenue for a drug in the future that could slow down a persons perception of time, but still be fully conscious (dream-like state where you are lucid, essentially). Just throw that in there and make people live out 10,000 relative years worth of torture.

      Of course, even that will not stop a lot of criminals.
      People snap for all kinds of reasons, even trivial reasons. These people are not of a sane mind to be able to comprehend anything past their current thoughts.
      A lot of people snap. A LOT. It is one of the biggest killers behind pre-meditated murder. And that is just murder.

      Revenge-based criminal treatment does not work. It has never worked. It never will work. Fucking grow up.

    10. Re:Except: it does by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Translation: I reject science in favor of my prejudices.

      If you have some studies that show capital punishment deters crime, then by all means provide it. Otherwise, you're just making shit up.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Except: it does by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      In the 1970's, the flower child generation spawned flower child researchers who used social "science" to arrive at flower child conclusions that they wanted. We are still feeling the effects of this bad research in many areas. This era was the plague that will not go away. Many of these are often discussed on these forums, I am looking at your gender wage discrepancy. There are many others. If you stop and use the smell test a bit, tie to you own life. Threat of punishment is always in the calculus of a crime. If you steal that post it note, and the worst you get is a cold hard stare from an HR lady, you may do it. If it leads to your immediate termination, you leave that note the hell alone. The death penalty will not deter a crime of passion. That is absolutely true. However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you.... Its a little different. Anyways, people resist these old studies, and they often find different conclusions. Here is one on this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      Yeah, I remember when Connecticut did away with the death penalty a few years back. Like everyone, I had been planning to kill a bunch of people but it was such a pain to get them on a bus and take them to Massachusetts or Rhode Island or someplace else without the death penalty; but now I can kill them right here at home, so much more tempting.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    12. Re:Except: it does by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Nice theory, but the way people make decisions is pretty complex and influenced by many factors. Research does not support your conclusion: https://www.dartmouth.edu/~cha...

      If the death penalty was an effective rational deterrent to murder, then the death rate from automotive travel would put the auto manufacturers out of business. The fact is the risk assessment gadget in people's brains is one of God's crappiest products ever.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    13. Re:Except: it does by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 1

      If the death penalty was an effective rational deterrent to murder, then the death rate from automotive travel would put the auto manufacturers out of business.

      I know I have 1% or so lifetime chance to die in a car accident. Using cars is a conscious choice I take. They increase the quality of life dramatically.

      --
      17779 eligible voters in a district, 17779 'vote' as one. This is Russia.
  18. Just use milk then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because an excessive amount of milk in your bloodstream does more harm than these chemicals.
    And you can purchase it everywhere.

  19. Moral trumps Americans by jopsen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not this case, there are many ways to kill people, none of them are humane...
    Capital punishment is widely considered cruel and inhuman punishment in violation of the human rights convention.
    The US and Japan is the last western countries to maintain this barbaric practice...

    No, I think it's alright for companies to stand up against this issue.. Seriously, European countries have threaten local companies that they could face criminal charges if they exported drugs intended to murder people.
    I'm not even sure that's so far fetched, when capital punishment is seen as a human rights violation, why shouldn't your company be held responsible for murder, if you export drugs for such purposes.

    1. Re:Moral trumps Americans by bug_hunter · · Score: 1

      Indeed,
      Architects don't want to be responsible for designing prisons with execution chambers and death rows.
      Builders don't want to build them.
      Now drug companies don't want to assist.

      It's effectively the rest of the world (and many of America's own people) putting sanctions on this. Regardless of legality executions are going to be a logistical nightmare.

      --
      It's turtles all the way down.
    2. Re:Moral trumps Americans by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Or maybe people will just lower their standards. Why do we need special prison designs to deal with execution? We don't. That's utterly retarded.

      We can always fall back to the old trick of putting a bullet in someone's head.. I seriously doubt gun manufacturers are going to ban sales to governments that enforce the death penalty.

    3. Re:Moral trumps Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess--you're perfectly fine with abortion and a womyn's right to choose, but removing a murderous psychopath from society is "barbaric," right?

    4. Re:Moral trumps Americans by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Not this case, there are many ways to kill people, none of them are humane...
      Capital punishment is widely considered cruel and inhuman punishment in violation of the human rights convention.

      I assume your from one of those countries that brought things like the Guilotine, drawing and quartering, flaying or necklacing into practice.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    5. Re:Moral trumps Americans by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Not this case, there are many ways to kill people, none of them are humane... Capital punishment is widely considered cruel and inhuman punishment in violation of the human rights convention. The US and Japan is the last western countries to maintain this barbaric practice... No, I think it's alright for companies to stand up against this issue.. Seriously, European countries have threaten local companies that they could face criminal charges if they exported drugs intended to murder people. I'm not even sure that's so far fetched, when capital punishment is seen as a human rights violation, why shouldn't your company be held responsible for murder, if you export drugs for such purposes.

      If they want to use the medical industry to execute prisoners, just admit them to hospitals for a while until they get a hospital-acquired infection. UTI, clostridium, pneumonia, RIP. Works for non-prisoners, don't see why it wouldn't work for prisoners.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    6. Re:Moral trumps Americans by jopsen · · Score: 1

      I assume your from one of those countries that brought things like the Guilotine, drawing and quartering, flaying or necklacing into practice.

      I doubt those were invented in Denmark... But quiet confident we imported many such customs back in medieval times. Particularly for hunting witches, etc..

      Honestly, though I don't feel honor bound by practices from hundreds of years ago.
      In fact I think it's quiet acceptable to change ones practices and opinions.

      So how is that relevant? (answer: it's not)

    7. Re:Moral trumps Americans by jopsen · · Score: 1

      Let me guess--you're perfectly fine with abortion and a womyn's right to choose, but removing a murderous psychopath from society is "barbaric," right?

      I'm not female so I reserve the right to not have an opinion about abortion.

      Obviously, there is a line somewhere between fertilization and birth, but where I have no clue. And I respectfully leave the technicalities of defining such line to domain experts. As for whether or not all abortion should be prohibited on a precautionary principle, I leave that discussion to women in general, as I will never have to face such a dilemma on my body.

  20. Guilty management. by jondeanmack · · Score: 1

    Maybe the board and management of Pfizer realised they are heading to being convicted of a crime that has the death penalty as punishment and are positioning themselves so that the tools to allow the punishment to proceed are not available.

  21. Not hypocritical by bug_hunter · · Score: 1

    Selling your drug to the citizens of a country that has leadership which performs horrible things or
    Employing people in a country that has leadership which performs horrible things
    vs
    Selling your drug directly to an organisation which will do horrible things with your product.

    The first part still isn't great, but there's still a world of difference.

    --
    It's turtles all the way down.
    1. Re:Not hypocritical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you exert influence on all the citizens to force a change. See South African sanctions.

    2. Re:Not hypocritical by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Selling your drug to the citizens of a country that has leadership which performs horrible things or Employing people in a country that has leadership which performs horrible things vs Selling your drug directly to an organisation which will do horrible things with your product. The first part still isn't great, but there's still a world of difference.

      Which leads us to "big software companies who have to kowtow to the whims of tyrannies to be allowed to do business with their billions of citizens"

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  22. Pkarma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pfizer's birth control polls are the largest cause of homosexuality, a prime source of suicides and AIDS deaths, so their products are a leading cause of homicides.

  23. Your sig gives a better answer by dbIII · · Score: 0

    Instead of treating guns as "a human right" how about keep some perspective about what they actually are. They are very good tools for killing and are used to humanely kill animals worldwide.
    So there you go - useful tool and not surrogate flag or ego booster.

    1. Re:Your sig gives a better answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're a good way for gun manufacturers to make money. Gun rights are also a good way for gun manufacturers to make money.

  24. rest of world vs USA by dr.Flake · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't want to be the one patronizing all you "helpful experts" suggesting wonderful alternative methods to get rid of (execute) your inmates. History has taught us endless options to end the life of fellow humans, there is no shortage at all, lest the need for more.

    But a large part of the rest of this planet frowns upon this fixation and desire to implement the death penalty. I wouldn't hurt to look in your mirror critically and realize in what good company you guys are (think Saudi Arabia, Iran north Korea etc)

    Please, use you're knowledge and good judgement, your academic independent view, to suggest options for the US to join the rest of the civilised world and to abolish the death penalty.
    What you guys really need is a more humane society, not a more efficient way to kill humans. You already excel in that subject.

    --
    Why are other peoples sig's always more witty ???
    1. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screw all that liberal crap, Pfizer is up 2% on this press release, aw yea.

    2. Re:rest of world vs USA by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Oh, my, the frowning voice of "the rest of the world" looking down on us Americans. Gosh, that hasn't happened for several hours now, I suppose it's time again. Yaknow, when international groups like Cirque du Soliel cancel their trip to Carolina and don't cancel the one to the Middle East where they use these wonderful tools of execution on gays, it kind of cuts the moral ground out from under you. It makes you look like a barking hypocrite. Here's an idea: work on your own societies until they're fixed, and then you can come around to looking down on the Americans again. Oh, but you won't because it's too satisfying. Carry on, then!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfizer blocks the use of its drugs In executions?

      I think that's great, it reduces the overall cost of executions.

      They're going to be buried after execution, right? Well then, Pfizer's saved everyone the time and trouble. I say we go ahead and bury them anyway.

      No, I'm not joking. Let's ask the victims of some of these people and see what THEY think. Oh, you can't; they're dead. Well, I'm sure they were treated nicely and very humanely killed by the criminals -- I'm sorry, the "justice involved". I'm sure the victims had no fear as their life ended, just because someone you don't know is where they shouldn't be, rushing towards you with an upraised knife, hammer, or brick.

      I'm sorry -- the death penalty needs to be very sparingly applied. You need to be 100% positive and allow the normal court appeals to play out. You need to make DAMN sure you've got the right person(s).

      Once all of that has been completely executed [made a funny] though, off to the box with you. You can think about the people you killed in the dark while your O2 runs out. Or just lay there screaming, crying, and pleading like your earlier victims, I don't care. If I was vindictive I'd run an air hose down and let you slowly starve to death. But like cockroaches, I'm really not trying to torture you: I'm trying to kill you with the least effort.

      Speaking of don't care: I'd log in but I've reset my computer and am too lazy to figure out my credentials. Complain a lot to this thread and I'll log in sooner than later and claim my prize.

      Finally, to those objecting to this comment: I've just killed your spouse / child / parent / friend / YOU in a most horrific way. You really want me in jail to think about my actions? I didn't care to start with, what makes you think I'm going to think about it afterwards? Repent because I'm bored?

      "Well it's better to have eventually saved one life rather than completely lost two of them." Sorry, but that's too expensive a price to pay for me. I'd rather take those upkeep costs and apply them towards trying to help a not-as-bad criminal.

    4. Re:rest of world vs USA by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I don't look down on the USA. I just laugh at it.

      Whenever want to persuade an American to my point of view, I simply start a sentence with "America has the best (fill in anything) in the world". Then I watch as their tiny, propaganda-dulled brains shut down, and they nod solemnly. Then they mindlessly slurp up whatever I present as just a tiny bit of tinkering to make something great even better.

      It never fails.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    5. Re:rest of world vs USA by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't know that on balance, it costs more to execute somebody than to keep them in prison for life.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    6. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please tell us - have you eliminated the death penalty for innocent citizens targeted by criminals? My impression is that there have been several mass-murder attacks in Europe by terrorists recently.

      Oops ... I guess you mean that you have abolished the death penalty for the perpetrators; not for the victims!

    7. Re: rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, that was exactly the point of the thread. Set aside your primal reflex Like the small child getting a finger.
      Step away, look around, open up, Explore, analyse.

      Could it be that 130 countries in the world are morally on a better path than those other 15? Imagine.

      Regretfull to see that this capability is lacking in you.

    8. Re:rest of world vs USA by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Russia stopped executions, is it bad not to be like Russia? China and India are populous and thriving countries that execute. When you talk about "rest of the world" you really mean Europe, which is on the way down. There are more people euthanized in Europe than there are criminals executed in other countries

    9. Re:rest of world vs USA by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Here's an idea: work on your own societies until they're fixed, and then you can come around to looking down on the Americans again. Oh, but you won't because it's too satisfying. Carry on, then!

      The main countries looking down on you already have a better system than you. You're not #1 in most things, no matter how many times you repeat it.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    10. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We'll ship all our most violent criminals to your country and you fine people can rehabilitate them.

    11. Re: rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please dont say you just compared the death penalty to euthenaesia? Dudes, you Guys are really sick.

    12. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait... the US even has a death penalty for victims? Well, at least they are consistent. Is American police officers regularly killing random innocent people part of the same scheme or are they technically violating the law, but not being prosecuted because the authorities do not feel like it?

    13. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I didn't know that pine coffins were so expensive.

      There's something wrong with your reply on the surface. I haven't looked at the costs, but that "it (routinely) costs more to execute someone than not?" Assumptions, cost measurements, or what: SOMEthing's wrong with that line. Doing a Google search now. Ahh, phrasing: you mean the cost of the legal proceedings, long and drawn out as they are for kill vs non-kill cases while I literally mean the cost to kill them, period; not the previous "set up" costs that must be incurred. Good point, they are different.

      If the death penalty was replaced with a sentence of Life Without the Possibility of Parole*, which costs millions less and also ensures that the public is protected while eliminating the risk of an irreversible mistake, the money saved could ...

      I hadn't considered that. And it does solve the 100% sure thing, as you don't kill someone, you just effectively "take their life away over a long period of time."

      So we'd need more jails if (as?) we get more permanent jail residents. Oh, and don't forget health care, even if they want to change their sex. And visitation rights, and guards, alarms, upkeep, training, and what-now.

      Vs an "Escape from New York" setup.

      So you take someone, put them in "The Big House", locked up with bars everywhere, ordered around all of the time, take care of them (not being sarcastic here) for as long as they live? I originally was going to say THAT sounds like "cruel and unusual punishment," just like living on death row for 20 years -- see Nathan Dunlap. But Food, AC, heat, dry, bedding, security, and medicine all provided? The more I think about it the more I think I want to go there myself -- everything's all done and provided for me. All I have to do is be there and complain if I'm bored. And as a bonus I even get to take out someone that I absolutely abhor? Depending on who it was: forget being regretful about it, if it was the right person I could have nice dreams about that every night.

      So once I cross some magic threshold all you can do to me is lock me up and feed me? For someone serving concurrent or even sequential life sentences: maybe that's all the judge can do, but it's ridiculous non-the-less. So James should have shot more, more "bang for the buck" as it were, right?

      And that permanent "without parole" line is so harsh, shouldn't we think of the poor victimized prisoner in the years to come?

      Taking someone life against their will should NEVER be an easy, dried and cut thing. That doesn't mean that you don't do it, though. And: let's ask the opinions of their victims. Oh wait, we can't. Their life was cut short -- do we "owe" them anything?

      Not all of them would agree with me, though. She's a better person than I.

      Then again you've got mob rules, but that's no good either.

      Hmmm ... Santa keeps a list of people, I guess I'll have to ask Jason if he's keeps one as well.

      -----

      NO I'm not going to go out and kill anyone. I don't hate anyone that much. If they do irritate me I just usually get away from them, or irritate them enough so that they move away from me.

      I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if is "cheaper" and nicer to keep most killers alive, it still seems l

    14. Re: rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But mooooom, everybody else is doing it!!"

    15. Re:rest of world vs USA by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      For starters, it takes, on average, about 10 years for a person facing the death penalty to exhaust all their appeals. And those typically involve a lot of court time (which costs a lot of money). And keeping somebody on Death Row is more expensive than keeping them in the general prison population. Ec cetera.

      Sorry, I really don't have time for a detailed response (truth, not bullshit), but I looked into this fairly deeply, and just about every reputable study on the subject came out the same. Nobody admits it, but there's far, far more bureaucracy involved in death penalty cases than those imposing multiple consecutive life sentences.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    16. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US is just a violent place. A large portion of the people here fetishize violence. That's why the murder rate is so much higher. Guns are legal in other places, yet the US has a higher murder rate than many of those other places.

    17. Re:rest of world vs USA by JudgeFurious · · Score: 1

      I learned that in the police academy. I went into law enforcement almost thirty years ago but didn't stay in it. I injured my back at home and couldn't continue that career path. I remember though when capital punishment was discussed and how surprised people were to learn that it costs a great deal more to get a person into that death chamber than it does to incarcerate them for the rest of their lives. They also went over how the death penalty doesn't deter anyone at all. Almost without exception prisoners on death row state that the possible consequences of their actions never entered their minds while they were committing the crime for which they faced execution. It might deter you or I but then most likely wouldn't do it to begin with so it's sort of like preaching to the choir. It provides a measure or vengeance or retribution for the survivors and/or victims but it doesn't undo what happened or bring anyone back. The only justification we were given for the death penalty was that it serves as society's ultimate penalty. It is nothing less than the human race saying that you are no longer fit to exist among the rest of us and that society has chosen to rid itself of that person forever. I'm OK with this. I do think that people get so wrapped up in applying this ultimate penalty that they discount the really terrible experience that life without the possibility of parole can be.

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    18. Re:rest of world vs USA by JudgeFurious · · Score: 1

      Nobody really gives a shit what you think about America. You laugh at them, they laugh at you and around it goes. That's a fine broad brush you have there though.

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    19. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russia stopped executions, is it bad not to be like Russia?

      The US could do with being a lot less like Russia in terms of human rights.

      China and India are populous and thriving countries that execute.

      Indeed. They are also pretty shitty places to live for the vast majority of their citizens.

      There are more people euthanized in Europe than there are criminals executed in other countries

      I am not sure that is even factually true, but if it is, what would be wrong with that? It's a shame some countries still won't allow people to end their live if they choose to do so.

    20. Re:rest of world vs USA by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      A broad brush is necessary to accurately limn such an enormous number of mouth-breathing, willfully-ignorant morons.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    21. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm, I do see you point; I hadn't thought of the legal proceeding costs. I knew they were there and that things seemed to drag on forever but hadn't combined the two together.

      So I'll Godwin the thread myself. Here's a guy who assisted with murder a few times -- 170,000 times. He didn't do it by himself by any means, he was ordered to, and I imagine was scared and went along with the flow.

      So now fantasy land -- he did it all by himself; HE'S the one responsible, and will be found guilty. (Fantasy, remember?) So, same thing -- it's too much to prosecute him, so lets let him live out his life in prison?

      It's either yes or no (assuming that he is found guilty.) We put him in jail for the rest of his life, feed, clothe him, keep him dry, way, and healthy? I'm sure his victim (or their 169,999 friends) would have liked have that opportunity.

      OTOH, if you say "Off with his head" then you're indicating that some crimes are worth the cost and effort. Hell, where I live that's the entire population of my city: Every Single Person.

      I really don't know. Costs and expenses are important, treating someone humanely is important too. But weren't those lives he terminated important too and need a response more than locking him in a room? Or could you (really) rehabilitate him? More importantly, how could you tell? You'd have to trust his actions monitored by trusted counselors and hope they're correct.

      I guess it boils down to "punishment for the crime", whatever that is. It's not the same person to person so we depend (allow, expect) our governing system to handle it for us, at least mostly getting it right.

      If costs become a limiting factor then in effect you've got a filter. You take total court expenses and look for ways to produce the largest savings, reducing somewhat the more extensive and time-consuming cases and possibly even refusing to prosecute low-level "gadfly" cases.

      I don't know -- "Justice" limited or driven by cost savings just seems to leave a bad taste in my mouth. OTOH, "mob justice" -- although easy, cheap, and fast -- doesn't work either. "Having the sentence fit the crime" is the ideal; I'd never really thought about the implementation costs.

      I'm still not-at-all convinced that ?always? minimizing (or just limiting) costs is the best way to go. I'll have to brood on it some more, thanks.

    22. Re:rest of world vs USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...they discount the really terrible experience that life without the possibility of parole can be.

      Agree, but the criminal has completely "used up" valuable resources by killing others. (Assuming a judge has sentenced him to death for it.) It may be a terrible experience to keep him alive but ostracized, but I'm not sure why we need to keep providing him with even MORE resources after the fact.

      Like earlier, this is not a drop-of-the-hat answer, you need to make damn sure you've got the right people and that crime justifies the punishment. But I think there are times when this is still the case.

      Off topic? (Atypical, but my point stands.) I heard about a guy who horribly killed his girlfriend in a barn. His entire defense was "I'm completely innocent -- Satan took me over and made me do it."

      IANAJ (Judge), and never will be. But I think the correct response should have been: "I agree: the accused is innocent of the crime, as he is obviously not responsible for actions of a God. But to keep this gaping meta-spiritual hole from continuing to damage anyone else, he will be put to death immediately. Next case, please."

      I would either be a really POPULAR judge, or a really UN-popular one. :-) 'Course i'd never get there; I'd be lynched somewhere along the way.

  25. Phoney quasi-morality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Questions we are not supposed to ask while we heap praise on them for their high-minded morals:

    1. Do they supply the sorts of meds that people get hooked on and ruin their lives using? Why, yes, they do. Do they track where it all goes to make sure eveyone with a legitimate use can get it but it does not flood the streets? Apparently not. Many addicts of such drugs were not violent criminals out abusing innocent people, but rather became addicts after using pain meds in a medical situation before eventually going on to die of overdoses. There's a lot of money made every year, however, by drug companies selling far more narcotics than the legitimate market demands. It's not really in their interests to know where all the excess is going since they make money on every bottle they sell. How many otherwise-innocent people are dying every year from their more-lucrative drugs? Hint: more than were being legitimately executed after being convicted by juries of committing some of the most evil violent crimes.

    2. Do they supply drugs for abortion? Why Yes, they do.

    Like many "progressives" they are opposed to executing violent convicted murderers who've had their day in court and exhausted all their appeals, but have no problem at all supporting the murder of the only human beings we are all certain are absolutely innocent, unborn children. To oppose abortion AND the death penalty makes rational sense as a total pro-life position. To oppose abortion and support the death penalty makes sense as a pro-innocent-life position and even a position that says "all life is precious, and so much that no murderer can pay for the crime with anything less than his own life". To support abortion (killing the innocent) and oppose the death penalty (preserving the guilty) is a complete inversion of the very idea of morality.

  26. Doesn't work like that by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

    However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you

    Do you really think a mugger or whatever is thinking that far ahead?
    Sure, it's going to stop the honest people who consider their actions and consequences but they already have plenty of things to stop them.

    Criminals have a bad habit of not doing what they are told to do so your "sending a message" is unlikely to work. Maybe those "flower child researchers", some of who served in Korea and Vietnam, fit your definition of "a real man" more than any of the readers of this website and thus did not arrive at "flower child conclusions". Criminology isn't for the faint of heart after all.

    1. Re:Doesn't work like that by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you

      Do you really think a mugger or whatever is thinking that far ahead?

      Yep, and it's easily proven. Look at the murder rate against cops vs. against the regular population - it's dramatically lower. And the punishment for killing a cop is dramatically higher.

      Yes, there is a cause and effect. Nobody says it's 100% perfect, but harsher punishment will result in lower crime in this case.

      I'm against the death penalty, but I will gladly argue from a fact-based position rather than emotion.

    2. Re:Doesn't work like that by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Yep, and it's easily proven. Look at the murder rate against cops vs. against the regular population - it's dramatically lower. And the punishment for killing a cop is dramatically higher.

      I don't know if your premise is right, but you didn't easily prove anything with that. You said the murder rate of cops is lower. You said the punishment is higher. You're connecting the two. Might be right, might not be. You have to eliminate potential confounds. Cops always have buddies with guns nearby, for example. That's just one off the top of my head.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    3. Re:Doesn't work like that by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      He provides no actual evidence, provides no alternative explanation, he just simply makes a claim.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Doesn't work like that by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      However, if you are thinking about murder, and you start imagining the needle is waiting for you

      Do you really think a mugger or whatever is thinking that far ahead? Sure, it's going to stop the honest people who consider their actions and consequences but they already have plenty of things to stop them. Criminals have a bad habit of not doing what they are told to do so your "sending a message" is unlikely to work. Maybe those "flower child researchers", some of who served in Korea and Vietnam, fit your definition of "a real man" more than any of the readers of this website and thus did not arrive at "flower child conclusions". Criminology isn't for the faint of heart after all.

      Considering how many murders are crimes of passion where the cops arrive and find the killer standing there over the body with the weapon still in his hand, having made no effort to evade capture or cover up his guilt at all.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  27. Economists - is there nothing they cannot do? by dbIII · · Score: 1
    From your link:

    "said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver"

    I think I'll go with the subject matter experts on this one instead.
    If it was global warming, astronomy, brain surgery or rocket science maybe - seems they are experts on everything according to some:)
    Maybe I'm wrong and a Turkish economics degree is equivalent to a doctorate in criminology elsewhere, but I doubt it and I'd trust someone with the latter instead.


    Where would an economist even start in researching something like this and who is going to pay them as they being themselves up to speed in a totally different field, and presumably spend the years required to get to the top of that different field?

    If you stop and use the smell test a bit it stinks does it not?

  28. Strategic move by hidflect · · Score: 1

    Pfizer scrambling for the moral high ground. Providing drugs to kill people damages their image and there's almost no profit in it so their PR flacks craft a nobly worded sentiment for their blurb. I worked for them through PhRMA and believe me, I saw no indication of concern from them for anything without a fcking $ sign in front of it. Evil people.

  29. Pfizer: by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    "Consult a doctor if execution lasts more than 4 hours."

  30. Just shoot them by DrXym · · Score: 2
    I've never gotten the reason for a lethal injection or some of the more exotic forms of execution. Strapping someone to a gurney and fiddling around for 20 minutes trying to find the veins to inject drugs and then watching for another 30 as they thrash around because it was botched is supposed to be "humane".

    If a state was being "humane" it wouldn't execute people in the first place. And that being so it should just drop the pretense and shoot them. Shoot them in the heart and they'll rapidly lose consciousness and die. It's quick, it's effective, it's cheap. And it could be done in a way that doesn't require a human firing squad if that's a concern.

    1. Re:Just shoot them by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I've never gotten the reason for a lethal injection or some of the more exotic forms of execution. Strapping someone to a gurney and fiddling around for 20 minutes trying to find the veins to inject drugs and then watching for another 30 as they thrash around because it was botched is supposed to be "humane".

      If a state was being "humane" it wouldn't execute people in the first place. And that being so it should just drop the pretense and shoot them. Shoot them in the heart and they'll rapidly lose consciousness and die. It's quick, it's effective, it's cheap. And it could be done in a way that doesn't require a human firing squad if that's a concern.

      Like going to the doctor to get a shot to make you healthy isn't aversive to the average person; getting an IV to kill you is supposed to be merciful.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  31. Prisoners can indeed commit more crimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can't commit another crime? Of course they can commit another crime. Prisoners have been known to murder other prisoners, to murder guards, and to escape (giving them the opportunity to commit any number of crimes on the outside). Smart escapees try to stay low, but there's a reason why the authorities get their panties all in a bunch whenever especially violent and psychotic inmates escape. Maybe an escapee who wants transportation decides to carjack a vehicle and to murder the driver to keep them from alerting the authorities.

    There's also the issue of attempts to progressively weaken the laws. For example, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that you can't execute juvenile murderers; this was generally a good ruling, although it spares some murderers who really ought to face full adult penalties. E.g., there was a teenager in NH who was about a month shy of his 18th birthday. He led an invasion of a random home whose purpose was the murder of everyone inside. He and his buddies hacked a mother to death, and left her badly-injured daughter (who survived) for dead. Afterwards he joked with his buddies that he wanted to ask the mother "How does it feel to wake up to being hacked to death by a machete? How does it feel?" At first, the courts gave this scum life without parole, in accordance with New Hampshire state law. Then the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that legislatures cannot mandate life in prison without parole for the little darlings. Judges must have discretion as to the sentencing, so they have the option of going easy on the convicts. So this murderer got a new hearing; presumably the judge reimposed the life in prison without parole sentence, this time on the basis of judicial discretion.

    Fortunately for the general public, the crime did not happen in Massachusetts. The Massachusetts state supreme court ruled that juveniles cannot be sentenced to life in prison without parole, no matter what they have done. Can you imagine the risk to the general public if a parole board let someone like this murderer, or the junior Washington D.C. sniper, back out on the streets?

  32. Let The Cops Use Them For Target Practice by charles05663 · · Score: 1

    I would let the cops use them for target practice. There are plenty of cops who have the experience of executing people already so no need to train them.

    Or I would use the guillotine. It worked extremely well during the French Revolution.

    Bottom line, there are many ways to execute someone but people want it to be nice. The pain and suffering is plain BS.

  33. My Way by JimSadler · · Score: 0

    Much like in an old horror movie I suggest a huge water tank made of very heavy steel be elevated to a height of thirty feet, filled with a few tons of water, and with the prisoner well chained to a large anvil like bed, the tank simply be dropped turning the inmate into a very thin person, about as thin as a sheet of paper. The water in the tank can be used on the lawn, the tank lifted up again and filled and ready for the next inmate. Or one can take the cheap route and simply insert the barrel of a 12 guage shotgun into the inmates mouth and pull the trigger. A shotgun shell is probably less than one dollar, and I am quite certain that death will be both totally reliable and sudden. We can turn a complex and expensive ritual into a trivially easy mode of dispatch. And i'll bet no prisoner ever complains about the process.

    1. Re:My Way by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

      Seems messy.

  34. Yes it is a deterrent by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

    It is a deterrent for the guy you execute. It will deter said person from ever killing again.

    1. Re:Yes it is a deterrent by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      So would a life sentence without parole.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    2. Re:Yes it is a deterrent by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

      Because murder doesn't happen in prison? Unless you put the person in solitary for the rest of their lives, which they are generally not allowed to do for simple murderers.

    3. Re:Yes it is a deterrent by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Don't pretend you care.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    4. Re:Yes it is a deterrent by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

      Where did I say I care? From my perspective this is a purely academic discussion.

  35. bring back good olde HANGING by laurencetux · · Score: 1

    its eco-friendly makes for a good "Show" and can be made Quick.

    just make sure the condemmed have big pockets to hold lead shot (amount TBA)

  36. A stupid form of protest by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    I laugh when I hear about drug companies taking the moral "high road" when it comes to these issues.

    This is an industry that has repeatedly milked every last cent out of life saving drugs. An industry that puts profit before human life has no moral ground to stand on.

    That said, this is an ineffective protest - states will not simply drop the death penalty when far cheaper and easier forms of execution exist. I suspect if these drugs can no longer be found the gas chamber and firing squad will be brought back. Bullets and hydrogen cyanide are pretty cheap and very effective.

  37. Only the modern death penalty by trout007 · · Score: 1

    In history executing a dangerous person was really the only option. Is a rural town supposed to have a prison guarded 24/7? The resources to do so aren't available. Take desert island with 12 people. If one murders another the death penalty is a moral action.

    But in modern economies we have the capabilities to lock someone away for life for not much money. This is preferable because there is always a risk the person is actually innocent.

    In reality the whole concept of the modern criminal justice system is flawed. The whole purpose should be to restore the victim as much as possible. Prisons should only be used to confine people to work off their debts to restore their victims. The problem with this is that it requires an actual victim which eliminates 90% of the crimes which are committed against the "state"

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  38. Bakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If bakers must provide wedding cakes to the perverts, why shouldn't a drug company be required to sell their drugs to the executioners?

  39. faster if you just hit him with the bottle by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 1

    Other states have experimented with new drug combinations, sometimes with disastrous results, such as the prolonged execution of Joseph Wood in Arizona in 2014, using the sedative midazolam.

    If you experience an execution lasting longer than four hours, contact your warden immediately.

    1. Re:faster if you just hit him with the bottle by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 1

      If you experience an execution lasting longer than four hours, contact your warden immediately.

      Dammit, fuzzyfuzzyfungus beat me to it.

  40. What bullsh*t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's just a posture to make them appear ethical to increase their profits. This does not address the havoc (and yes, death) their drugs wreak on their everday customers. Sickening and pathetic.

  41. Alternatives? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    CO

    Morphine (chops to all the other psoters, u wun)

    Heroin (redundant, I know)

    A multitude of anesthetics.

    Modern firing squad. Pros: Plenty of volunteers for the squad, trust me on this; no cost, the volunteers willingly undergo training and will provide their own approved ammo. Cons: Outrage from the many who will be offended by this; more outrage from the many who will be outraged by this; rampant misunderstanding of the process.

    Sadly, none of these will be simple to implement:

    - Testing. On animals. This will offend someone.

    - Developing the actual process. This will also offend someone.

    - Defending the practice of capital punishment.

    Is this permissible, that a drug maker should refuse to provide products for legal use? Seems they provide them for off-label uses, which are merely unapproved, not necessarily illegal. But it's their business.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  42. Politics, not deterrence by sjbe · · Score: 2

    It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty.

    No it isn't. The US has gone WAY beyond the level of penalties that have a beneficial effect in deterring crime. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation and yet it doesn't have lower crime rates. In fact the US has HIGHER rates of several types of violent crimes. No, the penalties that are handed out and conditions of the prisons has everything to do with politics and very little to do with crime prevention. Being "tough on crime" gets votes regardless of the effectiveness or morality of the actions that result.

    Just like the police do not come until a crime is happening, or after the fact, a disincentive can not be given until someone is judged guilty by a jury of their peers.

    Police routinely show up in places where a crime is reasonably likely to occur. Police being present in a location with no crime being committed mostly makes it less likely that a crime will occur. Happens all the time.

    Handing out increasingly disproportional punishments for crimes does nothing to improve deterrence of crimes further.

    The police are not there to save you from a crime, they are there to clean up after the fact.

    Incorrect. They are there for both purposes. Police are both a deterrent and and enforcement mechanism.

    1. Re:Politics, not deterrence by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Police don't enforce the law indiscriminately. Their presence might reduce some crime, but cause radically different outcomes for different people. One's minor transgressions are ignored, while another's are cause for he/she to enter the system where charges begin to pile up for minor transgressions. They eventually learn from others in the system and graduate to larger crimes.
      Our goal should be to keep people out of the penal system.

    2. Re:Politics, not deterrence by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Our goal should mostly be to keep people who don't belong into the penal system out of it. There are people who do belong behind bars because they are a threat to society. But, frankly, a lot of people sitting in the bin today have not really harmed anyone in any way.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Politics, not deterrence by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      It's actually about giving the rest of society an incentive to not engage in the same crimes for which someone else was found guilty.

      No it isn't. The US has gone WAY beyond the level of penalties that have a beneficial effect in deterring crime. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation and yet it doesn't have lower crime rates. In fact the US has HIGHER rates of several types of violent crimes. No, the penalties that are handed out and conditions of the prisons has everything to do with politics and very little to do with crime prevention. Being "tough on crime" gets votes regardless of the effectiveness or morality of the actions that result.

      Just like the police do not come until a crime is happening, or after the fact, a disincentive can not be given until someone is judged guilty by a jury of their peers.

      Police routinely show up in places where a crime is reasonably likely to occur. Police being present in a location with no crime being committed mostly makes it less likely that a crime will occur. Happens all the time.

      Handing out increasingly disproportional punishments for crimes does nothing to improve deterrence of crimes further.

      The police are not there to save you from a crime, they are there to clean up after the fact.

      Incorrect. They are there for both purposes. Police are both a deterrent and and enforcement mechanism.

      In considering our incarceration situation one must, like when considering our healthcare situation, consider the fact that we do both on a for-profit basis; and thus, actually reducing the rate of people who need either would wreck everything.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  43. US Justice System is a Farce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I personally do not think the United States deserves the death penalty. The US Justice system is so perverse and unjust that such life and death decisions should not be entrusted to it. The outcome of criminal trials has only to do with the wealth and/or political connectedness of the accused, and nothing else.

    Prosecutors, Sheriffs, and Judges are elected (or worse, appointed by politicians) and have to run for office (or appease their political masters), and that means killing a few black people to appear tough on crime to wealthy white voters who are scared of everything. That is not a justice system. That is a dictatorship.

    Third world countries like the US need more incentive to join the rest of the civilized world. Perhaps we should kick them off the security council and impose sanctions. I don't see why the UN Security Council should be entertaining the ideals of an archaic third world society anyway.

  44. They can just decide not to sell it? Wow. by LutherDRansomJr · · Score: 0

    Bakers don't want to sell a cake to gays for a wedding? Here comes BIG GOVERNMENT to force them to do it anyway... But a Drug Company can decide not to sell needed drugs and they get a pass?

  45. Generally not in our best interests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This approach is only feasible for those who will never be released. If you brutalize someone, eschewing rehabilitation for the sake of retribution and then let them out, you not only have a non-rehabilitated criminal, you have one who is angry and resentful and very likely to re-offend and escalate upon release.

    Because of this, your idea is a very bad one (although it certainly is one held by a lot of shallow thinkers, along with a bunch of other ideas with overall negative social impact.)

    The winners in your system are law enforcement and the penal system, both of which pick up direct financial windfalls proportional to crime rate; politicians also dip into the well for "tough on crime" rhetoric, which boosts their electability, and benefit via the lobbyists for the law enforcement and incarceration industries. The losers... that would be everyone else. Including the armchair droolers who think sitting around and shaking their fists in support of retribution makes creating harder and more resentful criminals a "win.

    For the rare death-penalty and life-without-parole situations, maltreatment may serve as a deterrent (although there's no real evidence of that. We certainly experience a continuous stream of new criminality at that level, and always has, so it sure doesn't look like it, anyway.) But at least it doesn't produce a (further) hardened criminal that the rest of us have to deal with.

    All of this, of course, is quite aside from the fact that life sentence w/o parole and the death penalty are already very high on any horrific penalty scale. Particularly when you add in prison conditions in general (speaking of the USA.)

    --fyngyrz
    anon due to mod points

  46. Send them to an island by NotARealUser · · Score: 1

    Rather than deal with the implications of the death penalty (moral and otherwise), revoke their citizenship and banish them to an island. It seems that they would either learn to work hard to survive, or they would die trying. Australia comes to mind as a success story in this method.

  47. Risk, benefit and reward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That logic fails to allow for the presumption by the criminal that they will not be caught; and if caught, they may not be convicted; and if convicted, they may not receive the death penalty.

    The very existence of, and huge participation in, lotteries should tell you without any doubt at all that people constantly do things with almost no chance at an outcome in their favor, because they are convinced that there is, in fact, a worthy chance at an outcome in their favor.

    TL;DR: People suck at figuring out risk, benefit, and reward. Also: If that doesn't apply to you, that still doesn't mean it doesn't apply almost everyone else.

    --fyngyrz
    anon due to mod points

    1. Re:Risk, benefit and reward by tlambert · · Score: 1

      That logic fails to allow for the presumption by the criminal that they will not be caught; and if caught, they may not be convicted; and if convicted, they may not receive the death penalty.

      This is a different matter.

      Now you are arguing about how effective a deterrent the penal system provides.

      I would claim that the period of time between arrest and the carrying out of the sentence bears strongly on the effectiveness of a deterrent. The way to correct that would be to reduce the time between the crime and the remit to sentence. The more swiftly it happens, the more of a deterrent it poses for potential future offenders.

  48. Opposition to the death penalty is barbaric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To oppose the death penalty is to say that a few years of a murder's life spent in a cell with access to TV and movies and books and with air conditioning and medical and dental care is equal in value to the entire life of one or more innocent human beings. The only way you can say that a decade in jail "pays the debt" for the murder of a child is to say that the 60? years violently taken from that child is equal in value to crimping the lifestyle of the murderer and that the violence and horror of the actual murder is equal to or less significant than the stress of the courtroom the murderer endured.

    I prefer to live in a civilized country where the life of an innocent is still considered more valuable than the life of a scumbag who preys on the innocent.

    1. Re:Opposition to the death penalty is barbaric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To oppose the death penalty is to say that a few years of a murder's life spent in a cell with access to TV and movies and books and with air conditioning and medical and dental care is equal in value to the entire life of one or more innocent human beings.

      No it is not. There is no possible comparison between the value of a human life and a sentence for a crime. Those are two completely distinct and unrelated concepts

      The only way you can say that a decade in jail "pays the debt" for the murder of a child is to say that the 60? years violently taken from that child is equal in value to crimping the lifestyle of the murderer and that the violence and horror of the actual murder is equal to or less significant than the stress of the courtroom the murderer endured.

      You seem to think that killing or locking up someone would somehow negate or compensate for the consequences of a crime. Please take a moment to realise that this is impossible.

      I prefer to live in a civilized country where the life of an innocent is still considered more valuable than the life of a scumbag who preys on the innocent

      So do I. I suppose that holds for the vast majority of people. I also prefer to live in civilised country that does not kill people.

    2. Re:Opposition to the death penalty is barbaric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, you are not even interested in the concept of justice, where offenders are punished proportionally to their crimes. Punishment not proportional to the crime, or worse the lack of punishment for crimes, is the opposite of justice. I guess classical education is no longer a thing.

      Your rant against the death penalty for murders leads me to ask: do you support abortion rights?

  49. Legal for off-label use by mveloso · · Score: 1

    It's funny, pharmas were just busted for promoting off-label use. Why isn't this considered just another off-label use?

  50. Down at the bottom of a very deep mine shaft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pfizer piles up a little moral dirt and then stands on it so they can brag about their moral high ground.

    "Pfizer makes its products to enhance and save the lives of the patients we serve,"

    Smoking kills a lot of people. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/dat... one out of five deaths that link says.
    Pfizer makes things like chantix, nicitrol inhalers, gums, and patches that do not prove very effective in stopping smoking. They are very profitable due to cost and customers coming back again and again. Pfizer also hates vapes because vapes just work.
    You look at the FUD aimed at the most effective smoking cessation tool ever and you ask "why?".
    Big Tobacco, Big Pharma (Pfizer front and center) and politicians (love the tax dollars and tobacco funds) hate something that actually allows people to quit smoking.
    So while there are decades of research on the vape "smoke" compounds, due to their use the theater and stage, now we get scare stories and bans. (If you were wondering the research says the vape "smoke" is an irritant for asthmatics and there are a grand total of 0 cancer deaths linked to it)
    When you call the American Cancer Society and say "I have tried everything to quit smoking and only vapes work, I should keep vaping right?" and they say "You should go back to smoking if that is the case." (I actually had this talk with them and I was completely stunned), try searching their site for "Pfizer" and see when the latest "donation" was.
    So Pfizer is working their hardest to ensure 500,000 smoking deaths in the US every year and 10 million world wide.. I don't want to Godwin this but that is LITERALLY (correct usage) worse than Hitler.
    So after that, they want to take the moral high ground about not helping with a handful of executions each year in the US?.. I do not know whether to laugh or to cry.

  51. Modern variation of the guillotine is the way by JudgeFurious · · Score: 1

    Simple and effective, reusable and quite painless if the condemned is first sedated on a gurney with common surgical anesthesia. Do not allow witnesses to view the beheading. Simply allow them to see the body from the shoulders down. Allow him to say his final words, knock him out with the drugs, then wheel him into the device face up so that his head goes through the opening. Begin the countdown and then have a doctor pronounce him dead once everyone sees his body shudder as the blade drops. Public spectacles were a mistake with the original guillotine and undermine it's simplicity and effectiveness.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
  52. Firing squads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Firing squads are inhuman and it should be required that a single person walks up to them and shoots them in the head. If no one wants to do that, then I guess they live to see another day. If someone wants to do it, they should have to get a psych eval first.

  53. Alternatives by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

    As alternatives go, I'm shocked (heh) that any state would use the electric chair in this day and age. That has got to be one of the more painful, drawn out, gruesome ways to kill someone. Firing squad or drop hanging would be a lot more humane.
    If they're going to execute regardless, for the most instant, painless, but messy execution, just put their head in a high power, high speed hydraulic press that slams down with several tons of force. They'd never even know what hit them. I'd hate to be the janitor though.

    --

    Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  54. Take example from Eddard Stark. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If think that the judge that issues the death sentence should perform the execution himself.

  55. If I'm Ever Executed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want it to be by having a vacuum hose shoved in my asshole to suck out all of my vital organs. That seems like the most dignified way to go.

  56. How does a company regulate how it's prod. is used by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I mean can a company that makes hammers somehow control who those hammers are sold to, and what they are used for?

    At any rate hammers kill more people than guns in the USA, so I think it is about time we started regulating hammers. The Bureau of Hammers, Alcohol, Tobacco, and firearms could run background checks on everyone purchasing a hammer. Of coarse nobody from the Bureau of Prisons would be allowed to own a hammer, because it theoretically could be used to impose a death sentence on someone that the state wants to kill, and the HATF wants to protect people who would otherwise be killed by hammers.

    Wouldn't it be cool if the HATF did a raid on a hammer manufacture, and the evil hammer lord was sentenced to death at the Bureau of Prisons. Unfortunately there were no hammers at the bureau of prisons, because they had all been confiscated by the HATF. The correctional institution could not of coarse shoot the inmate, nor electrocute, nor asphyxiate, nor poison with life saving Phizer drugs, because those methods are are cruel.

    This makes as much sense as anything else in the article. To me it is ridiculous that the state can not find a legal way to kill someone. I mean the state makes all the laws, and determines what is legal,and what is cruel and unusual. Just have Prez Obama hammer away an executive order requiring all death row inmates be humanely hit over the cranium with the 'hammers of love' until they become rehabilitated or dead. Re-pubs will love it because it kills people. Dems will love it because they love it every-time Prez Obama legislates reality in some bizarre and heretofore unheard of way through executive orders.

  57. None anywhere near my discussion with you by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Incorrect. I kept going on and on about the topic and you kept going on and on about the email triviality with some odd stuff about governors not having anything to keep secret.

    Are you mixing me up with a different person or being dishonest?
    Either way, it's a little odd that you are consuming more time claiming that you provided that information than the time it would take you for a quick cut and paste. Not a good look.

  58. Richard Nixon was a flower child? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    One more thing I thought of that should have been in other posts - by 1970 the death penalty had been suspended in the USA and it was only reinstated in 1977 due to a serial killer in Washington DC causing a change in opinion.
    Think about who you are calling "the flower child generation" - Richard Nixon and a bunch of criminologists who had built up their reputation before the flower children even turned up. Outside of political nepotism it takes years before a person is considered an expert good enough to listen to when setting policy - even more so in the conservative corridoors of power in 1970.

  59. A bottle of Monsanto's RoundUp should work by KayakFun · · Score: 1

    Despite claims that RoundUp is totally safe to drink (by a Monsanto lobbyist who was then offered a glass, and refused), they could let the person drink a bottle of Monsanto's RoundUp. It does not only clean up pavement, but society too.