Microsoft Backtracks On 'Nasty Trick' Upgrade To Windows 10 (bbc.co.uk)

Reader Raging Bool writes: Days after angering many users with its so-called "nasty trick", Microsoft has reversed its crazy decision to infuriate users by upgrading them to Windows 10 automatically. Users were angry that clicking the cross to dismiss the box meant that they had agreed to the upgrade. Based on "customer feedback", Microsoft said it would add another notification that provided customers with "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade". Microsoft told the BBC it had modified the pop-up as a result of criticism: "We've added another notification that confirms the time of the scheduled upgrade and provides the customer an additional opportunity for cancelling or rescheduling the upgrade. If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed."

Comments

Malware trick

[Anonymous Coward]

A typical malware trick, make the close button install the stuff.

Criminals.

Re:Malware trick

[Infiniti2000]

Agreed. Fuck you, Microsoft. I had already trained my 9yo son to press the X to close the upgrade window whenever he might see it (he uses my computer more than I). Saturday morning, Windows 10 was installed. Goddamn it.

Re:Malware trick

[wkwilley2]

Almost seems like they were betting on the vetted response for popups, which is to hit the X immediately after it pops up.

Re:Malware trick

[The-Ixian]

You mean they had telemetry which told them people's behavior? On Windows 7? But I thought Windows 7 was safe!

Re:Malware trick

[mlts]

This is common across the ad industry now. Either a fake "X", that takes you to some shitty app or website, or the "close" button brings up AdChoices's "is this ad bad?" menu. This started back in the days of Bonzi Buddy, and is a common trick. Ad blocking extensions have stopped that problem on the desktop, but it is a chronic thing on iOS.

Re:Malware trick

[RavenLrD20k]

Nah...Going after the Windows 10 team would be about as effective as taking down the street thug running a loansharking op. The mob just pulled in more muscle from the streets of Queens, Brooklyn, Chicago...or Sicily if need be. MS would do about the same, albeit skipping the local streets and getting their thug muscle from India. Fighting the symptom but not doing a thing against the disease. A better bet would be using something like RICO to take out Nadella in about the same way they brought down the Gambino family.

Re:Malware trick

[JohnFen]

Microsoft retrofitted much of its Win 10 spyware into Windows 7 updates a while back.

Re:Malware trick

[NatasRevol]

That no matter what they do, Microsoft will try to screw them?

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Agreed. Fuck you, Microsoft. I had already trained my 9yo son to press the X to close the upgrade window whenever he might see it (he uses my computer more than I). Saturday morning, Windows 10 was installed. Goddamn it.

Doesn't Windows auto-generate a System Restore Point when you do an "Upgrade"/"Update"?

If so, I would imagine you can change your mind pretty easily.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Microsoft retrofitted much of its Win 10 spyware into Windows 7 updates a while back.

How can I check to see if I was infected with this Windows Malware in my Win 7 system?

And second, if it did do that, is there any way to throw the genie out of the bottle? (Get rid of the spyware?)

Re:Malware trick

[ColdWetDog]

With your nic you might be forgiven for thinking that a "System Restore Point" actually did something along those lines.

The Rest of Us know better.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Nah...Going after the Windows 10 team would be about as effective as taking down the street thug running a loansharking op. The mob just pulled in more muscle from the streets of Queens, Brooklyn, Chicago...or Sicily if need be. MS would do about the same, albeit skipping the local streets and getting their thug muscle from India. Fighting the symptom but not doing a thing against the disease. A better bet would be using something like RICO to take out Nadella in about the same way they brought down the Gambino family.

Ok, howabout a nice Grand Jury subpoena for Satya and whoever is head of the "Windows Experience" team? THAT might turn a few heads...

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

This is common across the ad industry now. Either a fake "X", that takes you to some shitty app or website, or the "close" button brings up AdChoices's "is this ad bad?" menu. This started back in the days of Bonzi Buddy, and is a common trick. Ad blocking extensions have stopped that problem on the desktop, but it is a chronic thing on iOS.

Might be one of the reasons why Apple is stopping iAd.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Coward]

While I think that the way M$ is pushing Windows 10 is unscrupulous...

Why do you allow your son to have administrative privileges on the computer if he is not qualified to make administrative decisions about it?

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

With your nic you might be forgiven for thinking that a "System Restore Point" actually did something along those lines.

The Rest of Us know better.

Thanks for the snarky, but uninformative, response.

And I am (rather obviously) no friend of Microsoft; but isn't there an "uninstall upgrade" that is offered for some sort of limited time, like 30 days?

Ah yes, here it is.

Thanks for NOTHING, smartass. You were so proud of yourself riffing on my username that you completely ignored my question (Can you roll-back from Windows 10).

Good Job!

Re:Malware trick

[dreamchaser]

You were being trolled. It's not hard to roll back the upgrade.

Re:Malware trick

[PRMan]

Actually, though, System Restore Points used to be great but now are completely useless as they hose your system beyond repair.

Re:Malware trick

[GreatOldOne]

At which point the user can still cancel. The summary on this is really misleading, claiming it automatically upgrades, which would be much, much worse. MS was out of line, but a person would have to be an idiot or a child to accidentally upgrade.

I always thought that was the Microsoft target demographic. Yeah, I have a Windows PC, so I guess I have to admit to being an idiot.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Does your system run any MS OSes newer than DOS? Then you have Windows Malware.

I was hoping that, in the context of the current discussion, you would understand that I meant the "Telemetry" malware that comes from MICROSOFT.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no way a 9-year-old should be on an Internet connected PC unsupervised, anymore than they should be in a big city on their own.

You can easily roll back to your old OS. Google rollback win 10 install.

Re:Malware trick

[oh_my_080980980]

At your own risk: ""My attempt to roll it back to Windows 7 resulted in the blue screen of death and a dead PC. I now have to reinstall my home computer from scratch because of this so-called 'free' upgrade."

RTFA.

Re:Malware trick

[JohnFen]

Unlike with Windows 10, with Windows 7 you actually can remove the spyware. Check out this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmas...

Re:Malware trick

[bondsbw]

I rolled back the latest Windows Insider build just a few days ago. It works just fine, even in the bleeding edge versions.

Re:Malware trick

[wonkey_monkey]

The summary on this is really misleading, claiming it automatically upgrades

Unless you cancel, it will upgrade. That's pretty automatic.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Actually, though, System Restore Points used to be great but now are completely useless as they hose your system beyond repair.

Not to start a Platform War; but it's actually too bad Windows doesn't intrinsically have something like OS X's Time Machine.

Yes, you have to be using it; but you can completely restore an OS X system to a point in time with pretty fine granularity (every hour), even across an OS Upgrade. Several OS X users who were displeased with the latest El Capitan Update were able to "uninstall" it through Time Machine. Some even opted to go back to the previous OS version. In fact, long story, but I had a friend that reverted his El Capitan install back to Snow Leopard last weekend using Time Machine. Worked perfectly. Then he was able to move forward to the OS version he wanted to upgrade-to in the first place (Yosemite).

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

At your own risk: ""My attempt to roll it back to Windows 7 resulted in the blue screen of death and a dead PC. I now have to reinstall my home computer from scratch because of this so-called 'free' upgrade."

Nice. Thanks, Microsoft!!!

Re:Malware trick

[ITRambo]

Windows 8 and 10 have File History that backs up your data files automatically to an SD card, USB or network drive. Few people know it exists.

Re:Malware trick

[cfalcon]

Correct. Copypasta from the reddit link, user /u/qua-z:
(so a copy is here)
-------
KB3068708 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB3022345 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
KB2952664 Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7
KB2990214 Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows
KB3035583 Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1
KB971033 Description of the update for Windows Activation Technologies
KB3021917 Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements
KB3044374 Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to a later version of Windows
*cmd:

sc stop Diagtrack

sc delete Diagtrack
*Task Scheduler Library:

Everything under "Application Experience"

Everything under "Autochk"

Everything under "Customer Experience Improvement Program"

Under "Disk Diagnostic" only the "Microsoft-Windows-DiskDiagnosticDataCollector"

Under "Maintenance" "WinSAT"

"Media Center" and click the "status" column, then select all non-disabled entries and disable them.
*services.msc:

"Remote Registry" to "Disabled" instead of "Manual".
----end copypasta---

In general, this is current for how to make 7 and 8 safe for now. Remember that future kbs may bundle these or otherwise list then as required, or may have different telemetry. You must manually vet every kb to some extent that you install onto Windows from here on out, to make sure it doesn't add telemetry.

Re:Malware trick

[ITRambo]

I suspect that a threat from the EU would carry more weight than any US grand jury would. Microsoft has too much power on its home court.

Re:Malware trick

[The New Guy 2.0]

Reply to This Parent Share (with law enforcement!)

Re:Malware trick

[Hognoxious]

It sure as hell looks as if it's installed it though. It says it's upgraded, and it shows the password screen for the last user, except it's different; the picture is circular, not square. You have to logon before it gives you the decline option.

And as the last person to use my wife's laptop last night, that makes it all my fucking fault, of course.

Re:Malware trick

[NeutralSolution]

Here are a couple lists I found googling:

https://gist.github.com/xvital...

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmas...

There are a couple utilities floating around that blocks most/all of the M$ telemetry IPs by dumping them into the hosts file. A few months ago I was able to revert a Win10 upgrade back to Win7; not sure if it lets you do that anymore.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

In general, this is current for how to make 7 and 8 safe for now. Remember that future kbs may bundle these or otherwise list then as required, or may have different telemetry. You must manually vet every kb to some extent that you install onto Windows from here on out, to make sure it doesn't add telemetry.

Thanks for putting that into the Thread. Easier for me to go back and find

Ewwww! Right...

So, I can't simply scan-for/remove these "Updates" and then turn my Windows Update Service back on? Sigh.

And people around here think Apple is Teh Evilz...

Too bad I work writing software for a place that writes Windows Applications. At least they humor me and let me keep my WIn 7 laptop...

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Windows 8 and 10 have File History that backs up your data files automatically to an SD card, USB or network drive. Few people know it exists.

Data files only? That's like OS X's HFS+ File Journaling, only not as fine-grained. Time Machine backs up EVERYTHING.

In fact, you can literally take a bare, unformatted drive, boot an OS X Install disc/USB Stick, choose "Restore From Time Machine Backup", and in a couple of hours (depending on drive size), you will be EXACTLY back to where you were. I did it with a friend's iMac, and both of us were mightily impressed...

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

Unless you cancel, it will upgrade. That's pretty automatic.

If you enable automatic updates, that pretty manual. That's what's happening here. Users who have opted to automatically install recommended updates are being notified that there is a scheduled update to Windows 10. Clicking the "x" on the notification doesn't stop the scheduled update, it only closes the notification window -- which is what the 'x' is supposed to do.

It's like a notification that pops up that says "you have new email". You wouldn't expect the system to delete your email if you click on the 'x' to close the notification, would you? Of course not. Well, this is a notification that tells you that there is a scheduled update going to happen. Clicking 'x' closes the notification. If you don't want the scheduled thing to happen, change the schedule.

The issue is NOT that "clicking the x performs the update", because it doesn't. The issue is that Microsoft made Windows 10 a recommended update, which is catching people who have automatic updates turned on.

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

Why do you allow your son to have administrative privileges on the computer

What administrative privileges does it require to close a notification window alerting you to the fact the admin has allowed automatic installation of recommended updates and that a major one has been scheduled to take place?

It wasn't the fault of the non-admin 9 year old that the admin turned on automatic updates. It's the fault of Microsoft for making Windows 10 a recommended update, although I don't know who would be deciding an update is "recommended" other than the source of the update itself. "Unwanted" is a different word.

Re:Malware trick

[Agent0013]

Yep. Install from a pirated copy of Win7 and DO NOT install any updates from MS ever. That is how my system stays safe and secure.

Re:Malware trick

[Gr8Apes]

In short, install W7 from a known "clean" source, as much as that exists, and then manually download and update only those pieces that you deem necessary. There's a list out there somewhere with what you need.

While I may be flippant above, it actually is the right answer for 99% of windows users, including most admins. If you're running any still supported windows, you will need to expend significant effort to ensure that you are both "safe"* and not subject to those "bad" updates.

I say this from the POV of someone that has gone through that process with NT/2K/XP/2003/2008/2008R2 in stripping down the OS to only what was needed, removing large amounts of useless (to me) and insecure components and only keeping those that were needed updated. The first step in any of these processes is to remove Windows Update entirely from the system. The second is download all updates you need. If you're lucky, a service pack can be used and then stripped down post install. In others, be prepared for a couple of days of fun getting everything packaged up. Slipstreaming an install disk used to be the way to go. With the latter few OSes we didn't have to install much, because those were appliances that were heavily restricted and cordoned off from just about everything with only 2 services really available. Keeping up with the updates is a different story though, that's almost a full time job.

* "safe" means you have the updates necessary for security for those components you have running, as much as windows can be made "safe". You'll note elsewhere that my opinion on windows (in)security can be summed up as "a castle built on sand". Everything you code in windows has to design around the masked security tokens they use, where each process must have a maximum permission token for the process with permissions masked for anything you wish to reduce. There is no permission elevation, only removal of mask(s). This is why every buffer exploit in windows is a potential System level process, since just about every process starts with System when it's spawned.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

While I may be flippant above, it actually is the right answer for 99% of windows users, including most admins.

I suppose you are right, thanks; but I was really only wanting to know about the Telemetry malware.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It's like a notification that pops up that says "you have new email". You wouldn't expect the system to delete your email if you click on the 'x' to close the notification, would you? Of course not.

I also wouldn't expect the e-mail client I've been happily using for years to one day automatically schedule an update that reorganised its whole UI, started randomly cancelling e-mails I was in the middle of writing to reload itself every now and then, started quietly forwarding my mails to some unknown third party, and corrupted 25% of my saved mail if I tried to back the update out, and then just pop up a random notice not even asking for my active consent to go ahead but just telling me how I'm going to be screwed unless I click the tiny text hidden in the middle of the dialog instead of any of the controls I've been using for those past few years.

Re:Malware trick

[Darinbob]

Nonsense. Why technically clicking cancel did not cause the install (which was pre-scheduled), the effect ws intended to be the same. By having a big button that lets up upgrade immediately they trick people into thinking that anything else stops the upgrade. Once you see the notification, the upgrade is *already* scheduled and *will* happen unless you take action to prevent it. This makes even very smart people able to make mistakes. It is easy to mistake this for yet another Windows 10 advertisement and unless you read and understand every word in the notification you can easily be misled.

Let's make this clear: You will automatically be upgraded to Windows 10 if you do nothing, you will automatically be upgraded if you ignore that notification, you will automatically be upgraded if you reboot your computer. The only way to stop the upgrade is to OPT OUT.

There are three buttons on that notifier, but you only see two. Two buttons are in standard Windows notifier style, the third is in Metro style and is a single word in a small font colored blue, and that third easily overlooked "button" is what must be pressed to cancel the scheduled upgrade.

This current turn around is false. They say "If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed." This is the same behavior as the notification people are complaining about! If you close this second-chance notification by clicking on "x" then it will still install Windows 10 according to the schedule! Theyve given no hints that they will make the second-chance notification be clearer and less ambiguous than the first notification! And they've got the journalists duped as they're reporting a Microsoft "backtrack" when they're still going full speed ahead into the iceberg.

Re:Malware trick

[Darinbob]

Some people have ended up broken when trying to revert and had to reinstall W7 from scratch.

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

I also wouldn't expect the e-mail client I've been happily using for years to one day automatically schedule an update that reorganised its whole UI,

It's not your email client that scheduled the update, YOU told it that it could automatically install any recommended updates that were available. YOU gave it blanket permission to update based on what other people thought you ought to have.

You also propose an email client that makes massive updates and THEN notifies you that it is going to happen. That's not what is happening here. You're being told about the update ahead of time, that is scheduled to happen and you can stop it, and you clicked on the "dismiss this notice" option -- choosing to do nothing to stop what you've previously chosen to do.

If nothing else, this shows the danger of letting other people decide when your software should be updated.

Re:Malware trick

[Darinbob]

The notification will install Windows whether or not you have administrative privilege. That notification basically says that you WILL be upgraded unless you take active steps to stop it, administrator or not. Windows is scheduled to be installed and it will install even if you do nothing at all! This will happen even with a guest user account! Though I suspect you do need administrative privilege to cancel the upgrade...

You're still stuck in the mode of thinking that Microsoft is doing everything properly, or that only idiots can misunderstand a notification designed to fool people, or naively assuming that Windows would never upgrade itself without opt-in permission.

Re:Malware trick

[Gr8Apes]

FYI, IIRC, there's at least 3 KBs related to the W10 update "virus" which as of just recently added Windows Update itself as a 4th with the recommended setting for W10. There's at least 10 related to telemetry junk. I have not kept up, because I took my own advice years ago and switched to alternative systems where ever possible, and am actively moving those that request my support to alternatives as well. No one has been upset that has moved. That says something about the level of pain that MS is inflicting on people. Of my last 3 holdouts, 1 is actively looking to switch, 1 is pretty open to it, and one is of the opinion that they'll pry XP out of their cold dead fingers.

Re:Malware trick

[Darinbob]

Actually that "X" is legitimate. It does exactly what any "X" does and closes the notification. The snag is that Windows 10 upgrade is already scheduled to happen even if you do nothing and click on nothing! The way to stop it is to click on the "here" in the sentence "Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel scheduled upgrade." In other words you have to click on something that is not a button.

The "X" button is probably the only innocent thing in that notification.

Re:Malware trick

[fnj]

It wasn't the fault of the non-admin 9 year old that the admin turned on automatic updates.

No, it's the fault of the lazy, thoughtless bastard who turned on "automatically install recommended updates". I assume that wasn't the son?

If somebody with clear ulterior motives decides to "recommend" that you take a teaspoon dose of the contents of a plain white box they mail to you, do you do it? What if they send you a sheet of paper saying "for description of contents, go to this site to read bulletin"? That description might or might not reveal that the contents of the box are potassium cyanide, and what the effects of ingesting potassium cyanide are.

Re:Malware trick

[jez9999]

Here's my personal page I follow for avoiding Win10 & Telemetry:

http://game-point.net/misc/dontEnableAutomaticUpdates/

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

If somebody with clear ulterior motives decides to "recommend" that you take a teaspoon dose of the contents of a plain white box they mail to you, do you do it?

You've already said that you will automatically ingest any contents of any box they send you when they recommend that you do it. That's what "automatically install recommended updates" means.

What if they send you a sheet of paper saying "for description of contents, go to this site to read bulletin"?

I don't think anyone who is complaining that Windows 10 was installed "without their permission" has any need for a paper telling them to go to some other website for a description. I think they're pretty clear on the concept of what Windows 10 is and that they don't want it. The only problem is, they told their current OS that it was ok to apply updates that were recommended, based on the precedent that "recommended" didn't include free updates to a different OS.

Since the update is free, there is no reason why MS couldn't say it was recommended. "Recommended" is the opinion of the source, not the recipient.

Re:Malware trick

[dead_cthulhu]

Time Machine saved my arse countless times in the past, and it the thing that I miss most about Macs. However, at least (circa 2010 or so) there was no mechanism for choosing an update schedule. And it takes a bit more knowledge than most users possess to google the command to run it manually from the CLI and create a cronjob.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

That's cute, but for nearly 10 years the recommended default for non-technical users, both according to Microsoft themselves and according to most people who knew about IT, was to enable automatic installation of recommended Windows updates for security reasons. Microsoft don't get to dramatically alter what "recommended" means and how the system works after all this time, present the information in a way that anyone with five minutes of UI design experience could tell you would be confusing at best, betray the trust of all those users who followed their long-standing advice, and not get criticised for it. The fact that they've already back-peddled on this whole mess today, in the face of criticism that made the front page of not just the tech news sites but major general news outlets, suggests that even Microsoft are well aware that their position is untenable at this point.

Re:Malware trick

[dpidcoe]

Doesn't Windows auto-generate a System Restore Point when you do an "Upgrade"/"Update"?

Two problems with this:

1) The installation and subsequent restore take a significant amount of time (we're talking 2-3 hours on a laptop hdd). My mom experienced the joys of this when her computer spontaneously decided to update in the middle of her typing a report for work. It took 2 hours to install windows 10 (no way to stop it once it starts), and then another 2 hours to restore back to windows 8.1 when I declined the windows 10 EULA.

2) If the computer can't boot to windows 10 after the "upgrade", restoring it back to the previous OS as if nothing ever happened gets complicated (if not impossible). I haven't experienced it firsthand, but other slashdot users have reported windows 10 spontaneously installing on older computers that couldn't support it and basically requiring a clean reinstall in order to work.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

FYI, IIRC, there's at least 3 KBs related to the W10 update "virus" which as of just recently added Windows Update itself as a 4th with the recommended setting for W10. There's at least 10 related to telemetry junk. I have not kept up, because I took my own advice years ago and switched to alternative systems where ever possible, and am actively moving those that request my support to alternatives as well. No one has been upset that has moved. That says something about the level of pain that MS is inflicting on people. Of my last 3 holdouts, 1 is actively looking to switch, 1 is pretty open to it, and one is of the opinion that they'll pry XP out of their cold dead fingers.

Fortunately for me, I am only inflicted with Windows on my work machine; so it's more of an academic exercise that I watch with bemusement than a "OMG" thing for me.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Does doing an install/restore from a Time Machine backup still break things in weird and wonderful ways? I did an install/restore on to an old MacBook of mine and it permanently disabled FileVault for that install. I had to do a clean install followed by a restore to get it working again.

I don't know; but it has gone perfectly for the two machines I have seen it tried on.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Here's my personal page I follow for avoiding Win10 & Telemetry:

http://game-point.net/misc/dontEnableAutomaticUpdates/

Thanks! And I didn't get you anything... ;-)

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Time Machine saved my arse countless times in the past, and it the thing that I miss most about Macs. However, at least (circa 2010 or so) there was no mechanism for choosing an update schedule. And it takes a bit more knowledge than most users possess to google the command to run it manually from the CLI and create a cronjob.

There is at least one free haxie (probably a GUI-wrapped AppleScript application) that lets you change the schedule

Re: Malware trick

[macs4all]

Install linux

Work computer, smartass. And my work is unfortunately developing Windows Applications.

Re:Malware trick

[rock_climbing_guy]

I know that Google will find you a list of Windows Updates to avoid, but you will know for sure if you run a free tool called "Fiddler" that is meant to be used to debug web applications. It will log all those calls to Microsoft's telemetry servers. Many of them begin with vortex.data.microsoft.com

Re:Malware trick

[SeaFox]

Microsoft retrofitted much of its Win 10 spyware into Windows 7 updates a while back.

How can I check to see if I was infected with this Windows Malware in my Win 7 system?\

And second, if it did do that, is there any way to throw the genie out of the bottle? (Get rid of the spyware?)

Yes, there is.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

I know that Google will find you a list of Windows Updates to avoid, but you will know for sure if you run a free tool called "Fiddler" that is meant to be used to debug web applications. It will log all those calls to Microsoft's telemetry servers. Many of them begin with vortex.data.microsoft.com

Interesting, thanks!

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Thanks!

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I'm sorry, but you are defending the indefensible. If Microsoft were being as reasonable and transparent as you suggest, it wouldn't be literally front page news that they've upset so many people who were surprised at what happened, didn't want it, and in particular explicitly thought they hadn't agreed to it.

The behaviour we're talking about, installing recommended updates automatically, is the default. It's what someone gets if they don't know to actively change it. If someone didn't install Windows 7 themselves but instead bought a PC with Windows pre-installed, it's unreasonable to assume that they would have any idea there was even anything to change. And for about a decade, the default policy was sensible, because it meant users who didn't know these things still received important security and stability fixes.

Suddenly making an entire new OS (let's not insult anyone's intelligence by pretending it's anything like a normal Windows 7 upgrade, please) recommended is a drastic change in the expected behaviour.

Turning back on various updates that users have explicitly and actively declined previously is a drastic change in behaviour.

Bundling nag messages about the update within otherwise unrelated security updates is a drastic change in behaviour.

You can dress it up however you want, but the end result is still the same: users are being tricked into upgrading, and many of them very clearly didn't want to be and didn't intend to make the choice you blame them for. Microsoft's reputation isn't going to do any better because of the dubious technicalities you're basing your argument on. If this winds up in a court, it's unlikely those types of argument will do them much good either.

Re:Malware trick

[wierd_w]

Yup. Paid close attention to the dialog last night.

My shiny new SSD arrived from Amazon for my upstairs gaming PC, so I decided it would be a good time to do a fresh reinstall.

Did the base install, installed SP1, installed IE11 (Because so much shit wants IE for who knows what gods awful reason), installed security essentials, did the "takes forever and uses lots of ram to check updates" manual update, did the convenience rollup, then checked for updates.

Yup, GWX showed up in an even nastier form than before. It told me proudly that I was scheduled to upgrade on saturday at 11:00am. THERE WAS NO CANCEL BUTTON. I dug through the settings and menu choices. There was no option to cancel the upgrade. The window was just a notification that it had set up the hidden automated task, and when it would happen.

I had to install GWX control panel and use THAT to cancel the update, and remove the GWX components.

From the sound of the summary, microsoft still has "upgrade by default! We KNOW you secretly want it!" as the default, and closing the notification does not cancel the upgrade. They have just begrudgingly added a cancel button, in the disused settings menu, behind a sign that says "beware of the leopard."

It's almost like they simply refuse to accept that what is angering their customers is the "upgrade by default!" behavior, and are acting confused why people dont want to switch.

Re:Malware trick

[dbIII]

If you enable automatic updates, that pretty manual

It's the default choice of a new install.


At least over the last few days I now have learned some valid reasons not to upgrade to Win10 - half a dozen applications that just would not work after the accidental upgrade. All are either niche, do deep networking stuff (openvpn would definitely need a reinstall after such a change but the user didn't know that and blamed MS) or inhouse stuff from a developer with a skillset that may not be up to scratch - but lots of stuff they needed to use went from working to not. MS has just shaken loose a couple of rusted on fanbois and they are now taking me seriously when I suggest that MS is not perfect.

Re:Malware trick

[AmiMoJo]

I also wouldn't expect the e-mail client I've been happily using for years to one day automatically schedule an update that reorganised its whole UI

I wish someone has told Mozilla that.

Re:Malware trick

[AmiMoJo]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (I don't agree with or defend what Microsoft are doing, I'm merely trying to understand their logic because "evil!!" isn't a satisfactory explanation to me), it seems like they are just going what many other companies already do. The main difference is that they are doing it on PCs people use for work all day, and it's upsetting them more than when say their phone updates automatically.

I imagine they saw how Apple aggressively pushes OS updates, even to older devices that can't really handle them, and then shortly afterwards removes the option to downgrade again. Or how Android auto-updates apps, including ones providing fairly basic functionality like the launcher (the main "desktop" screen) without warning or opportunity to cancel or easy downgrade path.

But computers are not like phones and tablets. Well, Microsoft thinks they are, hence Surface and Windows Phone. But people like their computers to be stable and consistent because they use them for serious work every day. People complain about phones not getting updates and manufacturer installed skins, but actually a lot of users like that precisely because it doesn't change.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

Agreed. Fuck you, Microsoft. I had already trained my 9yo son to press the X to close the upgrade window whenever he might see it (he uses my computer more than I). Saturday morning, Windows 10 was installed. Goddamn it.

Well then you done fucked up. Teach your lad to actually read the boxes and you'd notice that it's telling you it's scheduled it not asking you to schedule it. Clicking the red x does nothing but dismiss the window like it always does, same way closing an explorer window doesn't delete your files. I'll agree it's shady as fuck them scheduling it on their own but if you'd only read the box you could've easily stopped it.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

A typical malware trick, make the close button install the stuff.

Criminals.

Close button does nothing but dismiss the window, same as it ever did.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

Almost seems like they were betting on the vetted response for popups, which is to hit the X immediately after it pops up.

Well that's the fault of all the twats who don't read what they say. The same ones who just click next on any crap they install and end up installing 10 things for every one they want.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

Does your system run any MS OSes newer than DOS? Then you have Windows Malware.

I was hoping that, in the context of the current discussion, you would understand that I meant the "Telemetry" malware that comes from MICROSOFT.

He was probably hoping in context you'd realise that meant no.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

It's like a notification that pops up that says "you have new email". You wouldn't expect the system to delete your email if you click on the 'x' to close the notification, would you? Of course not.

I also wouldn't expect the e-mail client I've been happily using for years to one day automatically schedule an update that reorganised its whole UI, started randomly cancelling e-mails I was in the middle of writing to reload itself every now and then, started quietly forwarding my mails to some unknown third party, and corrupted 25% of my saved mail if I tried to back the update out, and then just pop up a random notice not even asking for my active consent to go ahead but just telling me how I'm going to be screwed unless I click the tiny text hidden in the middle of the dialog instead of any of the controls I've been using for those past few years.

To be fair it's not like ms have been all that secretive about it. They've been making a big deal about getting everyone on 10 for a while. They announced they'd made it a recommended update and it would auto push out to everyone with auto updates on. The big pop up boxes telling you exactly when it's going to happen. If it gets you it's your own fault. If I tell you I'm going to punch you, remind you that I'm going to punch you, tell you exactly when I'm going to punch you, is it really my fault if you get punched?

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

So do I. :-(

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

They announced they'd made it a recommended update and it would auto push out to everyone with auto updates on.

I think the important question is whether they announced it to the people who actually needed to know, in a way those people would understand, so those people could choose to act on that information by declining the update it if they didn't want it.

If I tell you I'm going to punch you, remind you that I'm going to punch you, tell you exactly when I'm going to punch you, is it really my fault if you get punched?

Well... Yes. Yes, it is.

If you try to do that, you shouldn't be surprised if I defend myself and/or call the cops.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

They announced they'd made it a recommended update and it would auto push out to everyone with auto updates on.

I think the important question is whether they announced it to the people who actually needed to know, in a way those people would understand, so those people could choose to act on that information by declining the update it if they didn't want it.

If I tell you I'm going to punch you, remind you that I'm going to punch you, tell you exactly when I'm going to punch you, is it really my fault if you get punched?

Well... Yes. Yes, it is.

If you try to do that, you shouldn't be surprised if I defend myself and/or call the cops.

They announced it all over the place, including on peoples computers, they can't force the information into peoples heads. Making it a recommend thing in the first place is dodgy as fuck but they did what they could to let people know.

And of course if I said I was going to punch you in the face you would do something to stop me (unless you wanted it of course) but it would go something like

Me- I'm going to punch you in the face, if you don't want me to say "Don't punch me in the face"

You- Don't punch me in the face

Me- Are you sure you don't want me to

You- Don't punch me in the face

Me- Are you really sure

You - Don't punch me in the face

Me- Ok, I won't punch you in the face

That's essentially the conversation you need to have with windows except replace punch in the face with install win10.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Yes, you have to be using it; but you can completely restore an OS X system to a point in time with pretty fine granularity (every hour), even across an OS Upgrade.

Back to classic MacOS? Because Windows 10 is Microsofts attempt to be like OS x (hence the name Windows 10).

No, back to a previous version of OS X. Time Machine didn't exist until OS X 10.5.

And Windows copying OS X happened WAAAAY before W 10.

Re:Malware trick

[Gr8Apes]

Fortunately for me, I am only inflicted with Windows on my work machine; so it's more of an academic exercise that I watch with bemusement than a "OMG" thing for me.

As of yesterday, I am down to the 1 holdout, and fortunately the W10 thing doesn't apply to that one :)

Re:Malware trick

[Duhavid]

"If I tell you I'm going to punch you, remind you that I'm going to punch you, tell you exactly when I'm going to punch you, is it really my fault if you get punched?"

Yes, absolutely yes, it is your fault.  The punch was thrown *by you*.  Telling me about it ad nauseum *does not* remove your responsibility.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

Fortunately for me, I am only inflicted with Windows on my work machine; so it's more of an academic exercise that I watch with bemusement than a "OMG" thing for me.

As of yesterday, I am down to the 1 holdout, and fortunately the W10 thing doesn't apply to that one :)

Looks like you dodged the W10 Support-Bullet with your name on it, then... Good Job!!!

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

But if you know something bad is coming that you are able to avoid but don't. That's on you. Sure I'm in the wrong for throwing the punch to begin with but you could've easily not been punched.

Re:Malware trick

[nmr_andrew]

I probably shouldn't reply to ACs, but you can't necessarily cancel, especially if you never saw the notification in the first place. We had one computer here upgrade itself fully last night - walked in this morning to see "Welcome to Windows 10". Not my PC, and AFAIK it was set to automatically apply Windows updates. I spent a good part of the morning walking my supervisor through disabling most of the phone-home stuff and "acclimating" him to some of the bigger interface changes.

Re:Malware trick

[nmr_andrew]

No, it's the fault of the lazy, thoughtless bastard who didn't change the default setting to "automatically install recommended updates". I assume that wasn't the son?

FTFY

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

I'm sorry, but you are defending the indefensible. If Microsoft were being as reasonable and transparent as you suggest

I'm sorry, but you're making things up. I'm saying that "clicking the 'x' causes an unwanted upgrade to Windows 10" is a lie. I'm saying that "clicking the 'x' on the scheduled upgrade notification window is a change to the meaning of 'x'" is a lie. And I'm saying that "clicking the 'x' and getting upgraded is Microsoft not understanding what 'no' means" is a lie.

Clicking the 'x' in the notification does exactly what clicking the 'x' in any other window does: close this window and take no action. The notification is not "do you want to upgrade to Windows 10?", it is a statement that the upgrade has been scheduled and you need to do something to stop it. Clicking 'x' means "take no action", and thus you've taken no action to stop it.

Why was it scheduled? Because you opted to allow Microsoft to control what software is installed on your system. They define "recommended" and always have. You accept recommended updates without question. You said "yes, install recommended things".

The behaviour we're talking about, installing recommended updates automatically, is the default.

Which YOU CHOSE TO KEEP. And which you CHOSE NOT TO CHANGE when you were told it was going to result in an upgrade to Windows 10.

It's what someone gets if they don't know to actively change it.

And that's what the notification told them.

users are being tricked into upgrading,

"Yes, Microsoft, please install whatever updates you deem necessary and recommended."

If this winds up in a court, it's unlikely those types of argument will do them much good either.

If this ends up in a court of law, all Microsoft has to do is say "it's an optional upgrade, the user has the choice of refusing all recommended upgrades, and they were notified in advance that the upgrade was part of the recommended upgrades and HOW TO STOP IT IF THEY DIDN'T WANT THIS SPECIFIC ONE." I'm sorry, but the fact that people knee-jerk click 'x' on notifications without reading them isn't a basis for a lawsuit. It just isn't.

Now please, go after MS for any of the real things they do that are wrong. This isn't the molehill to base your outrage on.

Re:Malware trick

[Obfuscant]

The notification will install Windows whether or not you have administrative privilege.

The notification installs nothing. The Windows Update system that you told to "automatically install recommended updates" does the install. The notification is telling you it has been scheduled to happen and how to stop it.

That notification basically says that you WILL be upgraded unless you take active steps to stop it, administrator or not.

Well, yes. You need to take active steps to change a setting that authorizes automatic installation of recommended upgrades.

Windows is scheduled to be installed and it will install even if you do nothing at all!

I think that's what "automatic" means.

This will happen even with a guest user account!

The nature of the account using the system at the time of upgrade has nothing to do with it happening. The admin account set the upgrade policy. I've had systems reboot after updates while users were in the middle of a computation -- them being logged in and using the system didn't change the admin policy (which got changed right after that.)

Though I suspect you do need administrative privilege to cancel the upgrade...

Yes, you do need admin privileges to change update policy. That's to keep guest users from changing that policy. I LIKE that limitation, because it keeps my users from turning automatic updates back on and getting their systems broken by Microsoft.

You're still stuck in the mode of thinking that Microsoft is doing everything properly

Hardly. I'm stuck in a mode of the admin has some responsibility for the upgrade taking place, and that 'clicking the "x"' isn't causing the upgrade to happen. I've never said that making Windows 10 a recommended update was a good thing, or that Microsoft is not out of line for the measures they are taking to remind people to upgrade. I find it reprehensible that they install an "update" that includes a demon that does nothing but keep reminding me that I can get a free upgrade (GWX), that takes special actions to get rid of. But once I've removed it, it doesn't come back. And it never appears on systems where automatic updates are disabled. And even moreso are the mandatory updates for Windows 10.

or that only idiots can misunderstand a notification designed to fool people,

People who think that clicking 'x' to dismiss a window will change a system policy set by the admin are the foolish ones.

or naively assuming that Windows would never upgrade itself without opt-in permission.

Setting the automated update policy is opt-in permission. And the notification was specifically intended to tell people how to change that permission.

Yes, it is naive to believe that Microsoft would never upgrade something in a way that you didn't like after you give them blanket permission to upgrade anything they want to. It's naive to believe that ANY company or software source won't upgrade things in a way you don't like when you allow them to upgrade things for you. There are too many examples of Android apps that I've stopped updating because the latest versions are unusable, or Android itself, or Firefox on Linux, to ever go back to the trust model of updates. But it is also naive to see a notice of a scheduled upgrade and dismiss it with no action with the expectation that dismissing the notification means stopping the scheduled action.

Re:Malware trick

[beastofburdon]

If you have been installing the security updates, then yes, you have been infected by this malware.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

You seem to have some non-standard definitions for words.

I didn't mention anything about deleting e-mails, hyperbolic or otherwise, so I'm not sure which of my points you intended to refer to there. If it was the one about corruption, then there most certainly have been cases where backing out the Windows 10 update hasn't restored everything properly; numerous stories are yours for the price for a Google search.

What App Stores automatically update apps without the user's consent? None of the ones I use do.

As for active consent, your argument is like saying someone consented to give up their first born child because somewhere on page 74 of some minor software EULA it said so, in completely different words that mean the same thing if you squint just right and hire the more expensive legal team. In particular, I fail to see how "reserve" means anything like "in a few months, go ahead and replace my current OS with the new one without any further consent". Apparently quite a few other people don't see that either, judging by the number of complaints by people who seem very clear that they didn't want and don't think they gave permission for the update to be installed.

Re:Malware trick

[beastofburdon]

Apple is evil. When you look at them side by side with Microsoft, however, Apple looks like a mere jokester.

Re:Malware trick

[Darinbob]

The problem is that you're calling people who are being conned by Microsoft idiots. They usually don't have sysadmins looking over their shoulder at home. The computer "experts" they know say to always accept recommended updates, even the sysadmins at work require that. Now they get a notification that looks very similar to all the other junk advertisements that Microsoft has been shoving out and they click the "x" to dismiss it - without reading every word on it. That's a normal response and not something that only idiots do. Their mistake is in not being paranoid enough.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I'm sorry, but you're making things up.

For the record, at no point in this discussion have I repeated any of the claims you listed after that statement.

My objection here is to the premise -- which you have supported repeatedly throughout this thread -- that users have knowingly chosen to allow this update and so deserve what they get. Clearly very many people who have been updated did not think they had done so, because that's why this is an issue at all. And clearly the tactics Microsoft have used in their UIs have been actively designed to encourage users to upgrade even when they don't actually want to.

The notification is not "do you want to upgrade to Windows 10?"

No, but it should have been. If Microsoft had offered a simple yes/no confirmation before updating the whole OS in a completely different way to how automatic updates had ever worked before, they wouldn't be in the mess they are stuck in now.

The next several parts of your post keep referring to things the user has opted or chosen to do, but as I pointed out before, the automatic installation of recommended updates was the default behaviour. It's entirely possible that most Windows 7 users, who received the OS pre-installed on a new computer they bought, didn't even know this setting existed, never mind what its implications were.

As for the warnings Microsoft has given since, even if a user turned off the automatic installation and actively chose not to install certain recommended Windows updates related to GWX, Microsoft have been turning those updates back on later. You can't credibly argue that this is in any way respecting users' choices or not actively trying to trick them into doing something when they have clearly chosen that they don't want to do it.

I'm sorry, but the fact that people knee-jerk click 'x' on notifications without reading them isn't a basis for a lawsuit. It just isn't.

This is perhaps the most telling part of the entire thread. These deceptive UI practices, where you train users to work one way and then pull a fast one by reversing a convention, or you set something up as the default behaviour and make it difficult or confusing for users to achieve another outcome, are very well understood. There's even a term that's been adopted for such shady behaviour in UIs recently: dark patterns.

They have been so effective and so damaging that we're not talking about lawsuits now but actual statute laws being implemented right across Europe recently to totally prohibit some of these practices under a wide range of circumstances. Those particular rules were aimed more at upselling during a new sale rather than updates of pre-installed products as we're discussing here, but it's very clear which way the thinking was going, and I wouldn't expect courts to have much sympathy with the argument you made.

After the Windows 10 debacle, as well as some questionable practices about software updates from other big tech firms like Apple in recent years, it wouldn't surprise me to see another round of consumer protection legislation that explicitly extended the principle of active consent and opted-out-by-default to software updates some time in the future.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Making it a recommend thing in the first place is dodgy as fuck but they did what they could to let people know.

Really? Because it seems to me that this entire fiasco could have been completely avoided with the following words:

Microsoft recommends that you update your system to Windows 10. Do you want to do this?

Yes, update to Windows 10

No, keep Windows [7/8/8.1]

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

If you have been installing the security updates, then yes, you have been infected by this malware.

I disabled ALL updates on my Win7 laptop a couple of months ago, as soon as I heard that MS had back-ported Telemetry to Win 7; but I don't know whether I did it in time to avoid those "(in)Security Updates". That's why I asked the original question.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

You are completely correct and don't get me wrong I'm not trying to justify their behaviour in the slightest. All I'm saying is the fiasco could have also been avoided if people read the messages.

Re:Malware trick

[wierd_w]

To be perfectly frank, I didnt feel like digging through 170 "recommended" updates that have boilerplate descriptions of "solves an issue with windows 7" for a short list of KBs that may or may not be fully comprehensive, considering that MS seems to rebadge the GWX update every update cycle.

On a fresh install there are nearly 20 kbs now that either install the GWX malware, or install the backported telemetry from win 10, and that number is only growing.

Rather than going blind and wasting 30 to 40 minutes of my time dutifully examining each and every update in the list to block installation, I ran with it fully expecting the GWX shit to install, and then spend significanly less time uninstalling the unwanted "updates" after the fact. The issue is mature enough that there are automated tools to assist me with that, so why do it manually?

It also gave me the opportunity to personally verify the recent claims about the GWX app, so I rolled with it.

I have skill sets that normal people dont have. (Most people lack good tech skills, and so would be unable to prevent the upgrade like I did.) The dialog lacked a clear and easy option to decline the "generous offer." The windows update that contains GWX is essentially trojanized with its boiler plate description, meaning a typical user wouldnt know it from a proper security patch.

Saying it is my fault for not sanitizing my updates in a painfully laborious process is something I can partially see, given that I do indeed have the skillset to do so. (I elected to allow the GWX malware, both because the automated removal is effective and convenient, and because it would allow me to see the new version everyone was compaining about.) That argument does not hold for basically 99% of the population though. I am unwilling to manually sanitize my OWN update list on each and every patch set released-- I sure as hell am not going to do that for all the non-tech people I know.

The dialog was offensively presumptuous in how it simply told you it was going to upgrade and when. Useless in that it provided only the "Do it NOW!" button, but neglected to offer a "No, I would like to decline this offer" option.

MS is being disingenuous that the upgrade is a scheduled update-- it isnt, it is a seperately spawned scheduled task that only uses the windows update agent as the delivery mechanism. Removing the scheduled task does not require turning off windows automatic updates. The fact that MS KEEPS ON PUSHING NEW KBs FOR THE SAME SHIT, is the only thing implicating windows automatic updates, aside from MS branding the update as recommended.

My solution to the "constantly new KB numbers" problem is to put onerous filesystem ACLs on the folders and registry keys implicated in the GWX bullshit, so that additional updates cannot be installed, because not even SYSTEM or TrustedInstaller have any rights at all to the empty, placeholder locations on the drive and in the registry. The "updates" simply fail. Does not matter what MS names, or how critical they claim the update to be, the place the files are to be stored is a no-man's land. Installation fails.

Not everyone has the skills to do that, and it isnt something that can readily (or safely) be given an easy button for those that dont. I cannot expect hundreds of thousands of people to use a similar cock block strategy.

You shouldnt either.

Re:Malware trick

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

All I'm saying is the fiasco could have also been avoided if people read the messages.

I'm sure that's also true, at least up to a point. However, I'd expect a company with as much UI experience as Microsoft to know very well that most users won't read that kind of message, so I'm unwilling to give them the benefit of the doubt about their intentions in this particular case.

Re:Malware trick

[Infiniti2000]

Agreed. Fortunately, he doesn't get on the internet unsupervised. He was playing Pirate 101 or Autcraft. Both have been vetted. Is it possible he's surfing while I'm not there? Perhaps, but I check the browsers' histories regularly. He either doesn't browse the internet or he's good enough to clear the history or run in private mode, in which case he should not have fucking installed Windows 10 when I told him not to. Windows 10 is functional, and I don't plan to take the time to roll it back or risk that it will puck the remaining life of my already-old PC.

Re:Malware trick

[Infiniti2000]

Bullshit. I wouldn't even have noticed it and don't give me more bullshit about being some sort of non-technical guy. That isn't the problem here. I wouldn't have read the fucking the popup and neither would you. You're full of shit if you say otherwise. A popup shows up, you hit X and you're fine. Except in this case where Microsoft fucks you over like malware. You don't need admin privileges or anything. He simply got on the computer after finishing his homework and eating his vegetables, hit the X, played Pirate 101, and then got off a half hour later. I never got on the computer and in the morning, boom.

Re:Malware trick

[macs4all]

I'm sorry that most things in life require you to exert at least a little brainpower. As an Apple user, I know it goes against your lazy and entitled nature.

40 years employed as an embedded Dev. Got tired of chasing Contract Work. Currently employed writing some Windows ERP Stuff.

Lazy and Entitled; that's hilarious! I haven't taken a vacation in about a decade.

Now kindly PISS OFF.

Re:Malware trick

[Infiniti2000]

You are simply being ignorant. You have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly haven't even looked at the popup in question nor do you understand what is happening. The upgrade was forcefully scheduled by Microsoft (this is the issue, in case you can't figure it out). You have to read the fine print in the center and click a link ("Click here") to go do a bunch of more work to cancel something I never fucking scheduled in the first place. By all means, start clicking all the "click here" messages you see. Keep defending this practice, you shill.

Re:Malware trick

[stealth_finger]

I know exactly what it says. It's had enough fucking coverage. I'm not trying to defend it. It's dodgy as fuck what they did and they way they did it. It was a dick move on their part, no argument. But you just said yourself there's a thing in it to reschedule or cancel. Clicking on a click here message from a windows notification is a bit different from clicking one from a website. By all means fuck off internet popups straight away but system messages can be important. Case in point.

Class Action Lawsuit time

[Anonymous Coward]

For all the people that were already tricked or forced into the upgrade. I know of several people who said no each and every time they were prompted for the upgrade, and yet, when they came back to their PC after being away a few days to find that their PC was now on Windows 10 waiting to show them "all the nice new unwanted telemetry, spying and all-around ass-hattery" that M$ had forced on them.

"an additional opportunity"

[mrchaotica]

Microsoft says they'll give "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade" -- because respecting the user's choice the first (or second, or fifth, or 20th) time clearly isn't considered by those assholes to be an option!

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[chispito]

Microsoft says they'll give "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade" -- because respecting the user's choice the first (or second, or fifth, or 20th) time clearly isn't considered by those assholes to be an option!

You clearly could not be bothered to read the article. The pop up stated that Win 10 is now a recommended update, and that the user set their computer to install recommended updates automatically.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[DigiShaman]

Why the sudden push before the free Windows 10 upgrade campaign expires on July 29, 2016?? If they're really afraid people aren't adopting the "upgrade" fast enough, I don't see why Microsoft can't just push the date back to the Fall or next year. In fact, they might even.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[Z00L00K]

One day someone will get so pissed at Microsoft that they are going postal there.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[ITRambo]

MS has already announced that the free upgrade to Windows 10 will continue to be available past July for users with Accessibility options enabled. How they will pull that off isn't yet known.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[Darinbob]

You get to see the same tricky dialogue the second time. Microsoft is NOT backtracking. They are saying that if you click that "X" button then Windows will be upgraded, they've not said that they will make the second dialogue easier to understand. But the journalists are naively buying into this and thinking there is an apology. Just like many customers they don't expect Microsoft to be evil and so are easily fooled.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[fnj]

One day someone will get so pissed at Microsoft that they are going postal there.

That is certainly a possibility, but it would save people a lot of grief if they simply stopped using Windows. There are far superior alternatives, some of which are free as in beer.

Re:"an additional opportunity"

[nmr_andrew]

Microsoft says they'll give "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade"

And that helps anyone who was automagically updated (whether they they wanted it or not) how, exactly?

I'm pretty sure my supervisor would prefer going back to Win7, but with the various reports I'm seeing of rollbacks leading to BSOD/reinstall, the risk of data loss is probably significantly worse than just going forward with Win10. We may have upgraded anyway before the free period expires, but we were certainly planning of a full system image/backup first which we never got to do because the OS updated itself overnight without notice.

Re:Duh

[evileeyore]

They're not the market leader anymore, they don't have the advantages of monopoly,

While i agree with your overall sentiment the above is not even close to true. Microsoft has a stranglehold on the PC market as it pertains to OS. https://www.netmarketshare.com... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Bad to worse

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing is certain, the people at Microsoft are extremely disrespectful to their users. They just don't care. I wonder how many users were tricked with this little stunt? I wonder how many of those people had their computer broken by it? How many of them just bought new computers? A new computer is a terrible way to get people to switch to Windows 10!

Re:Bad to worse

[cfalcon]

> I wonder how many users were tricked with this little stunt?

Given that they disabled it, the answer is "enough". They knew from the start that this wouldn't fly- the question was how many people they could trick. Clearly, since it happened to everyone all at once, they have achieved their desired percent penetration.

Re:Bad to worse

[NotAPK]

"they have achieved their desired percent penetration."

Just the tip?

Class action please

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are the lawyers ? this clusterfuck has cost their "customers" millions in lost productivity and repair costs to right this fuck up, and for what ? so you can have a phone interface that less than 1% have but in 4K HD ?

not to mention antitrust issues surrounding Edge/Store/Advertising

Re:Class action please

[ITRambo]

I don't think there is a single class action law firm in the world with enough money or balls to take on Microsoft over this. Their Windows EULA has always allowed them to make changes to your computer based on whatever they feel like. It always seemed sleazy to me. But, it was never a cause for concern until this year. Still, the EULA makes all their bullshit legal as you license the OS, you do not own it.

to hell with microsoft

[FudRucker]

i will buy an android tablet or chromebook before i buy any more MS_Windows products

Re:Duh

[Anonymous Coward]

They will always have a free teir.

Windows 10 IS kinda free now, unlimited time on activations with personalisation disabled.

This is GOOD for VM users.

It took the BBC to do this?

[ITRambo]

Why did Microsoft ignore the tsunami of complaints about the definitely tricky upgrade pop up box? Did the BBC embarrass them into submission? This is quite strange. And fuck you Microsoft. That is all.

Re:It took the BBC to do this?

[Darinbob]

No, if you look closely there is no apology or backtracking. They are offering a second chance notification that will probably do exactly the same thing.

"If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed."

In other words, if you close the notification then you'll be upgraded to Windows 10. No where have they said that they'll make it easier to opt out, and the statement above means that they will not go to an opt-in process and are still relying on the strategy of fooling the users.

Next, Try this with MS Server, Microsoft.

[zenlessyank]

Just start upgrading everyone's 2k3 & 2k8 to 2016 Server.

Re:Next, Try this with MS Server, Microsoft.

[swb]

The licensing is so bad with 2016 that I know places that would spin up farms of 2k8 if it meant getting free upgrades to 2016.

Per core licensing, sold in 8 core increments. Got a 10 core CPU? You just bought 4 more cores worth of licensing than you wanted.

Re:Sadistic fucks

[SeaFox]

Seriously, what kind of sadistic fucks come up with these idiotic schemes?

The marketing people, likely under the pressure of getting adoption rates up to the C-levels' expectations.
What happened here was they crossed a line into doing something that was directly comparable to malware, and I bet their legal department stepped in to say this was a bad idea.

People keep asking in the comments on these stories why no civil/criminal charges have been brought against Microsoft for these "forced upgrades" and here is an example of the company actually worrying about that.

Re:Duh

[justthinkit]

As did this company. I'm not sure that a commanding market share means much when the quality plummets, or just isn't there in the first place.

be ware of the leopard

[Anonymous Coward]

something tells me that this additional option will be on "display", like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

“But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.”
“But the plans were on display ”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

Re:be ware of the leopard

[just_another_sean]

Happy Towel Day!

http://www.towelday.org/

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[DogDude]

+1 Funny if I had the mode points.

Based on "customer feedback"

[swan5566]

Dirtiest Jobs' newest episode: Microsoft support helpline *cringe*

Re:Based on "customer feedback"

[Sir_Eptishous]

Have you ever called it?
All they do is transfer you to another department...
Its the grandest circle jerk of all time!

Re:Dear Microsoft

[DaveMikulec]

Oh, you want it.

You just don't know it yet.

Next Try

[PPH]

A popup with an "Upgrade to Windows 10 now? [ ]Yes [ ]No" message.
Where the "[ ] No" checkbox is animated and keeps running away from the mouse.

Re:Next Try

[ncy]

i can't help but be reminded of Homer Simpson voting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: Duh

[cfalcon]

> Also, Apple gave away Mavericks for free. I don't see anyone complaining that Apple plans to move to a subscription based model for OS X. Why not?

Because Apple sells hardware.
Because Apple doesn't have a history of absolutely rampant customer abuse.
Because Apple has motivation to keep their ecosystem good.
Because Apple has legitimate ways to make money.
Because Apple doesn't hunt down and delete your old version of Solitaire, put a special flag that doesn't let it run in its most modern OS, offer a new version of Solitaire with ads, and then offer a subscription.

Seriously, if you don't think Microsoft's treatment of Solitaire and Minesweeper is a canary, you're being stubborn. If you want Windows 7 Solitaire- which you payed for and own- to work on Windows 10, you must first back it up, and then you must patch the binary to not demand it only run on Windows 7. At which point it runs fine. But this is absolutely a template for how to force people into a subscription model. At the very least, you can see that disabling ads will become a pay service at some point, right? Given that they JUST DID THAT?

Microsoft NEEDS to forcefully app LUDDITE systems!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft should stop backtracking on its appy app mission and forcefully app LUDDITE systems onto Appdows 10! Otherwise, dirty LUDDITES will keep hindering appy innovations like App to Appbook and AppChat!

Apps!

Huh?

[Andreas Mayer]

If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed.

Isn't that exactly what they were doing already in the criticized "nasty trick" dialog?

Let me quote from the slashdot submission on that thing:

"This means dismissing the box does not dismiss the update."

And now it reads:

"If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade [...] they can [...] close the notifications with no further action needed"

So they are "listening to user feedback" by doing the exact same thing a second time?

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

So true, its still going to force install eventually. Make sure to uninstall kb3035583, then check and hide it in the updates. Eventually though, I expect them to work around that and find some other way to force it on. With all my business customers having windows 7 specific Software(like Point of Sale or medical equipment), this is making a mess out of everything.

Re:July it is all over. no?

[Keruo]

No. After July everyone will be bitching and moaning that they have to pay for the latest windows again, instead getting a free upgrade.

It's not a nasty trick

[Dunbal]

Let's call it what it is: FRAUD. The "X" symbol in the top right corner of a window has been used to close a window since windows has existed. Therefore there's a pretty clear precedent established that when a user clicks there, he means to close the window. Changing the meaning of this symbol and causing it to do something completely opposite to what is intended without prior notice is a completely deceptive practice. Microsoft should be ashamed. Microsoft might also be liable. After all, any EULA for the current OS cannot cover or hide DECEPTIVE PRACTICES BY MICROSOFT. And of course you can't be held under any Windows 10 EULA since you quite obviously chose the "X" to not install it. So I hope these fraudulent installs trashed or tied up some important machines and lawyers are getting ready to take them to court. It's no less than they deserve for stooping to the level of scam internet pop-up ads.

Re:It's not a nasty trick

[chispito]

Let's call it what it is: FRAUD. The "X" symbol in the top right corner of a window has been used to close a window since windows has existed. Therefore there's a pretty clear precedent established that when a user clicks there, he means to close the window. Changing the meaning of this symbol and causing it to do something completely opposite to what is intended without prior notice is a completely deceptive practice.

Let's call it what it is: You only ever read the article summary and for some reason trust Slashdot summaries. Here's a link to the popup. Notice anything? Keep looking. Oh, that's right, it's a pop up letting you know that Windows 10 is now a recommended update and your computer is set to automatically install recommended updates so click here to change your settings if you do not want to do this.

But, by all means, keep repeating your version.

Re:It's not a nasty trick

[Mysticalfruit]

Listen if you write a windows app it has to adhere to all kind of HCI standards where shit like the red X actually means cancel...but Microsoft can simply violate all their rules for there underhanded tactics.

My wifes computer kept threating to upgrade to windows 10, we skipped right to Ubuntu.

Re:It's not a nasty trick

[fnj]

Let's call it what it is: FRAUD. The "X" symbol in the top right corner of a window has been used to close a window since windows has existed.

Hardly fraud. The window TELLS you that the upgrade has been scheduled and will happen. The "X" does EXACTLY what UI norms call for it to do - dismiss the window. So you've dismissed a notification telling you that something is going to happen. And you expect that to stop the thing from happening? When the "low oil pressure" warning light turns on in your car, is your corrective action to unscrew the bulb so you can continue to drive without being bothered by it?

The whole process on Microsoft's part may be a bit manipulative, but it's not deceptive. The behavior of that notification is NOT fraudulent or even tricky. You can make a case that there shouldn't BE an "X", and that the action buttons should be labeled "OK", "Just do it right now", and "Cancel".

And yet

[JohnFen]

And yet, I still hear people saying things like "Microsoft has changed", "Microsoft isn't evil anymore", or even "Microsoft is a good guy now".

How many times does Microsoft have to demonstrate that they're still the same old Microsoft before people stop believing this nonsense?

Re:And yet

[PRMan]

AKA this generation.

Re:And yet

[JohnFen]

Same posters, the difference is purely on whether it might affect them personally.

Since you replied to me, I assume that your amusement is about my comment? If so, then you're incorrect. My stance on these issues does not change as you say. I am 100% opposed to devices or software that automatically updates or applies patches without getting my permission first.

Re:And yet

[Ecuador]

Well, it is not that Microsoft isn't evil anymore. It is just that others are more evil and, more importantly, much more relevant than Microsoft.

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[OzPeter]

Seriously two simple solutions, either A) Google Aegis Script Windows 7

How the hell do I know to google something that I have never heard of before? (Seriously .. I just had to google it to find out what you mentioned)

or B) Format and install Linux.

This trope has to die. There are many applications that are windows only and will never ever in a million years have a FOSS equivalent, and there just as many exceptions to "just run wine".

And running VM's instead means that you have to be a Linux admin as well as a windows admin.

Lesson Number Two in MBA school

[ThatsNotPudding]

"Better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission."



Lesson Number One is "Steal, rob, and lie at will."

There are no other lessons. Here's your MBA.

Remove GWX Yourself!

[WheezyJoe]

GWX does suck. Two free options to disable it: Never 10 (Peter Thurrott writes about it here), and GWX Control Panel (written about here).

"User's choice"

[The MAZZTer]

I think the problem is users are confusing the dialog for a typical multiple-choice decision dialog. It's common to click the close button when you're not sure since that typically selects the "safe" option. But the close button does not always do this, it depends on the type of window. If I close Outlook, I expect it to still have all my e-mails when I open it up again; if I find it cancelled my account I would be upset. In that case, clicking close is assumed to mean that the user does not want any changes to happen to their e-mail; they are done with it for now.

Microsoft was a bit overzealous in scheduling upgrades for users. The dialog that shows up is NOT a decision dialog; the decision was already made by Microsoft! It was an informational dialog to notify you of the decision (and gives you an apparently difficult-to-find control to change this decision). Informational dialogs, by definition, do nothing when you close them; the upgrade would have been kept and that was perfectly in line with the standard for Windows UX. Unfortunately it also proved to be confusing, but I don't think it was malicious. Clearly Microsoft needed to change it since it was confusing users, and they are doing so.

Windows Update works the same way. If you start an update and close the window, the update does not stop. Instead it continues running in the background, since it is an important (to Microsoft) process. So it's understandable a similar process, the upgrade, would be designed to work in a similar way. Like I said, actual user experience now shows it was confusing so it's good MS is changing it.

Re:"User's choice"

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the problem is users are confusing the dialog

And that's the point! They want to defer away from that fact they are going shove Windows 10 onto your PC without your explicit acceptance. They are doing this whole notification, 'x' mark , brew haha, to detract from that very fact. They don't want to discussion to be about whether it is OK to force WIndows 10 on, they want it to be about the hoops users jump through in resisting! And it appears, they, and the media, are doing quite well to portray that message.

As others have said, this is fucking criminal.

Once again, I'd actually considered purchasing a new PC/Tablet with Windows installed. Why? Because once again, I'm always willing to give them a try, and see what their offer has in store. And just when I go to start looking, they start pulling the 'forced' Windows 10 shit, upon non-10 OS's. F you Microsoft. You will get nothing from of my pocket!

Re:"User's choice"

[Darinbob]

The close button does indeed close the notification. But the rest of the notification is designed to fool people. Most of the dialogue is in older Windows GUI style. The "Upgrade now" choice is a classic button. But the opt out method is not a button but is a metro style web like "link" to click on, with only a change in color and thus easily overlooked (especially by people on Windows 7 not used to the metro UI).

So... no end to free upgrades then?

[sshir]

It seems that free upgrade will not go away by the end of July.
The reasoning is simple: it's very likely that Microsoft has set a threshold number of upgrades to be pushed though by the deadline. The fact that they stooped so low this time around says that somebody is desperate (bye bye bonus). I.e. they realized that they will not hit the threshold in time...
So, the chances are that the deadline for free upgrades will be pushed (they for sure will find some bogus excuse to save face)

"customer feedback"???

[GreatOldOne]

If a mugger is beating you up and you are asking him to stop, does that count as "customer feedback"? It seems to, at least by the Microsoft definition.

Re:July it is all over. no?

[Sir_Eptishous]

No. After July everyone will be bitching and moaning that they have to pay for the latest windows again, instead getting a free upgrade.

I get the feeling you'll be the only one.
Better hurry and get your free upgrade!

Re:Microsoft has too much power

[dysmal]

The only way to fix this is to migrate to other platforms like Mac/Linux/etc.

Yeah... Because Apple has a GREAT record for giving a fuck about anyone who is on older hardware (3-4 years) that can't comfortably run their OS. I'm referring to OSX and the abortion that they called Mavericks (10.9) and how thoroughly fucked my 3 year old (2010) Macbook Pro was after installing it. I could have opted to not install but to do so would have meant no security updates because my hardware was dead in the eyes of Apple. So there i sat with an OS that was "more secure" despite my battery life was 1/2 after updating and turning off all of the eye candy. I guess "more secure" = 1/2 as much time to get hosed by something!

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Seriously two simple solutions, either A) Google Aegis Script Windows 7 or B) Format and install Linux.

I picked option B, and installed Linux Mint (dual boot) on my laptop. Works like a charm .

Windows upgraded the Win 7 on the Windows partition to Win 10 without permission, and promptly locked me out by asking for anon-existent login and password. I was able to do the "make it fail 3 times when booting" trick and revert to Win 7 on that partition, but it was too little too late. I doubt I'll ever boot into Windows on the laptop again because Mint seems to be working just fine. The best part of doing system updates on Mint is that (so far, anyway) I've never had to reboot after the updates.

Re:How is Linux any better?

[DNS-and-BIND]

The difference is that you freely chose to do so, nobody tricked you into doing it with a misleading dialog box. This is so well-written and wrapped up nicely with a bow, it sounds just like a Microsoft social media consultant (i.e. paid shill). If you're not a paid shill, you should look into that line of work because nobody should be writing posts like yours for free.

Too little too late

[WaffleMonster]

Damage to Microsoft brand and reputation already done. Good luck getting it back.

Never10

[waspleg]

Stop this shit with GWX Control Panel or Never10. I started off using the former on my g/fs computer but once I saw they were stepping up their "optional upgrade" (It's neither), I looked again and found an even better alternative. This is just an executable - I ran it through totalvirus.com first I'm sure you will too.

Personally I have Win 7 Ultimate on my primary machine (gamer here) and have never seen an nag window but other machines have other versions that have and I'm sick of it. I've even seen a few at work which are supposed to be disabled.

Come on Valve, this is your time to shine. Go STEAMOS Go.

Re:Never10

[ADRA]

Steve Gibson is legit, but his site looks like dog food.

Re:Never10

[Z00L00K]

Maybe everyone shall report the "upgrade" files as suspicious to their favourite anti-virus company.

Re:Duh

[Killall -9 Bash]

I don't mind windows, or any other brand, having a add supported version. My problem is that you walk into best buy, purchase windows 10 for $170, and you get the same experience as the guy who paid nothing.

You don't have the option of purchasing a non-douchy version of windows 10. So instead, I will be running windows 7 SP1, with updates turned OFF for the foreseeable future.

Re: Duh

[Killall -9 Bash]

Windows its self may not be profitable... but its the FOUNDATION of their business. Their douchy websites would have ZERO traffic if windows wasn't the default OS for PCs, and IE wasn't the default browser for windows. Maybe Google should stop running a search engine. It's just a loss leader.

Microsoft Windows Upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing that such a smart company can have such idiots making decisions like that. They expected another reaction from consumers? Our computers are our computers and we can run whatever software and Operating System we want on them. We don't need some caffeine-crusted marketing brain making those decisions for us. The person or persons should have their genitals de-skinned and dragged through hot, salt-covered broken glass and razor blades.

Re:Linux Mint

[chipschap]

If you're really ticked off and looking to get rid of Windows, you could do worse than to check out Linux Mint.

...
However, if you just a need a machine for a little e-mail, web browsing, YouTube, etc. you really can give it a try.

Linux Mint (and nearly all other distros) do the things you mention but they do far more, as you're certainly aware. I do end to end book publishing, among many other things. And that's just one small example.

Mint may not be a drop-in replacement if you have proprietary Windows apps that are mission critical and truly can't be replaced or if you want to be playing the latest Windows only games, etc. What I don't buy is the often-stated argument along the lines of Word or whatever having some obscure niche feature that is life and death.

Proposal

[sjames]

I propose that when you clicked X on the dialog both times and then get a surprise "upgrade" we call it a double-cross. It seems to capture the attitude adequately.

Re:Proposal

[sjames]

Sorry, no. MS is knowingly and deliberately defying standards and expectations for the GUI in order to pull a fast one. Sounds like a double-cross to me.

Listen up MS, no means no.

Re:Proposal

[Obfuscant]

Sorry, no. MS is knowingly and deliberately defying standards and expectations for the GUI in order to pull a fast one.

The 'x' is expected to mean "close this window and take no action". This is exactly how Microsoft is using it.

What you're missing is the fact that the window is a notification window reporting that an update has been scheduled, and giving the user the option of stopping the update. There is an option to act to stop the update. If the user clicks 'x', he is saying "close the window and take no action", which means "don't do anything". If you don't do anything when you are told that an update has been scheduled, that's your choice.

It's NOT a question "update to Windows 10 now?" It's "your going to get updated unless you choose to stop it, because you chose to allow automatic recommended updates." Clicking 'x' is clearly the "close window and take no action" option.

Listen up MS, no means no.

But you didn't say 'no'. You said "install recommended updates automatically" at some point in time, and this window is simply telling you that the system is going to do what you told it to do.

Should Windows 10 be a recommended update? From the point of view of Microsoft, of course. By accepting recommended updates automatically, you've given Microsoft the choice of what updates take place.

Re:Proposal

[The New Guy 2.0]

[X] means "get rid of this and change nothing"... "No" is represented by the word "Never" in the pulldown.

Re:Proposal

[sjames]

Note that they have changed the setup multiple times after people have declined the update. They don't get that no means no.

Ms is basically saying "Do you weant me tonot stomp on your foot now?" I suppose it was funny enough in the 3rd grade, but it has no place in a user interface. Once past the third grade, it's the sort of thing almost exclusively practiced by scumbag scammers.

Since the 3rd grade, I've upped my standards, up yours!

Re:Proposal

[sjames]

You missed it entirely. Things like upgrades are supposed to ask for PERMISSION. Any answer but yes/OK means don't do it. MS is violating that in this case and given the history it's not hard to see that they damned well know it.

I suspect you know that too.

Re:Proposal

[nmr_andrew]

The 'x' is expected to mean "close this window and take no action".

Close, but most users expect clicking the 'x' to mean something closer to "close this window without doing/changing anything". I know it's a relatively subtle distinction, but most users are going to expect that, by clicking the 'x', they're canceling the planned update, and somebody at MS is exploiting that. At best, it's mere incompetence and the exploit was unintended - this particular dialog really shouldn't even have an 'x' but a pair of large buttons: "Upgrade to Win10" and "Keep using Win7". More likely this setup is deceitful by design.

Re:Proposal

[Obfuscant]

You missed it entirely. Things like upgrades are supposed to ask for PERMISSION.

"Automatically install recommended updates" is permission. I've had lots of "recommended updates" install automatically, and none of them have asked yet again for permission. If you want your system to always ask for permission, there is an option for that. Well, there WAS an option for that, and THAT is one of the valid reasons to excoriate Microsoft policies regarding Windows 10. The fact that you cannot stop all updates on production systems that need to run for long, continuous periods of time IS a reason to hate Microsoft; doing an upgrade that you gave permission for and didn't pay attention to a notice that told you it was going to happen and how to stop it isn't.

Any answer but yes/OK means don't do it.

Except you said yes already. The issue at hand is not a request to do an upgrade, it is notification, in advance, that an upgrade that YOU AGREED TO is scheduled to take place and you need to act to stop it. Doing nothing means you accept the scheduled upgrade. That's what clicking the 'x' means. If you didn't read the notice before dismissing it that's your fault, not Microsoft's.

MS is violating that in this case

Already dealt with. 'x' means "close the window without action". In this case, that means you want to take no action regarding the scheduled upgrade. That is exactly how it is supposed to work.

I suspect you know that too.

I suspect you don't understand what I know, even though I've tried to tell you.

Re:Proposal

[sjames]

I guess you've managed to miss the several articles here pointing to various HOWTO avoid the "upgrade". People most certainly have not agreed to an upgrade now or ever when they get this latest trick.

When I say ask PERMISSION, I do not mean assume permission and then mumble something about confirmation.

Sorry I overestimated your knowledge.

How is this interpreted?

[Rastl]

From the article:

If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed.

The surface reading is OK to update, close and nothing happens.

Read it again. Closing the box means no further actions are needed. Does it say that the upgrade isn't going to be scheduled? That it's not going to make it go away? Or just that no further user actions are needed?

What's the verdict on Windows 10 anyways?

[Yxven]

I know Microsoft has been shady as fuck pushing it, but since Microsoft seems to think it's the last operating system they'll be releasing, I'll likely be forced to upgrade eventually anyway. The last day to upgrade for free is July 29th. Should it be taken advantage of, or is windows 7 the Alamo until they stop releasing security patches for it?

Re:What's the verdict on Windows 10 anyways?

[NotAPK]

"is windows 7 the Alamo until they stop releasing security patches for it?"

Yes, why yes it is. And probably a wee bit beyond then as well.

Re:Sadistic fucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what kind of sadistic fucks come up with these idiotic schemes?

UXtards: https://medium.com/@eshan/the-rise-of-the-ux-torturer-7fba47ba6f22

UI: User Interface. The user interfaces with the computer in order to get the computer to do the user's bidding.
UX: User eXperience: The marketing people want to monetize the user. Make the user click on the buttons that make the marketing people money. Hide all the options that don't make money beneath a hamburger menu or a registry edit, and then accuse the user of incompetence for failing to discover them. Meanwhile, 90% of the userbase falls for the dark pattern and marketing makes its bonus.

Microsoft's UX team knows exactly what it's doing here; they're only backtracking here because they got called out for going too far over the line.

Re:July it is all over. no?

[Z00L00K]

Upgrades seldom works well, fresh installations are usually a lot better.

Re:Duh

[cjjjer]

But desktop is synonymous with business and that is where MS makes it's money. And since Linux and or Mac will *always* be a niche market when it come to business desktops I'd say they are still the big fish.

Consumer content devices not so much.

Re:Dear Microsoft

[Z00L00K]

About as much as I want herpes.

[X] instead of Cancel

[The New Guy 2.0]

The window in question informed users that Win10 would be downloaded as a Windows Update and then installed at a specific time set by the Windows Update, and then offered a chance to cancel or reschedule. Clicking the [X] dismisses the dialog box with no action taken... but that equated to "Ok" because you needed to take an action to stop the upgrade. It's a violation of standard Windows conventions due to confusion.

Kinda like a "Would you like to repeal the new tax law? Yes/No" ballot question, where Yes leads to a tax cut being repealed to leading to higher taxes, and a No leaves the law the same causing the tax cut to stay in place. Most states trust a state official to prevent this kind of situation from resulting in a confusing ballot question to be sent to voters.

Bottom line... this resembles the "FUI ads" we saw a few years ago, where all of the Windows bar looked like XP's header but was sent in the ads image, causing an attempt to X-out looked like permission to load more pages.

Re:[X] instead of Cancel

[Londovir]

But how exactly is this a violation of "standard Windows conventions"? Clicking a corner [X] button has always been an indication of the user's desire to dismiss the window being closed and take no further action - not to take some perceived action based on some inferred semantic meaning.

As you noted, the popup that was included in the BBC article screenshot very clearly and concisely mentions that "Based on your Windows Update settings, this PC is scheduled to upgrade on...", followed by the date and time in large, bold print, followed by an actionable link that says "Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel scheduled upgrade". It repeats that the upgrade will be automatically downloaded and installed in smaller italicized print at the bottom. The only actionable UI button element on the popup is a large "OK" button. Per usual dialog box standard UI conventions, clicking a close button is typically analogous to clicking any available "Cancel" button (if one is present) on the dialog, or the "OK" button (if that's the only one present). Regardless, it's typically meant to mean "take no [further] action". However, "Cancel" in this case should not be assumed to mean "cancel whatever operation you are telling me about in this informational dialog box", but rather "cancel showing me this dialog box".

This dialog box is purely informational in nature, and is not a query dialog box. It would be similar to using alert() in javascript, MessageBox() in VB, etc. This is not a dialog box which says "You are about to format your hard drive. Click 'Yes' to continue or 'No' to cancel." In such a case, good UI design would imply that [X] would be analogous to the cancellation of the request that was made which brought up the dialog box in the first place (presumably clicking a "format" icon or similar action). This message box is not making any such statements or asking any such questions.

Closing this window does not have an inherent semantic meaning of "Stop/Cancel this upgrade", in much the same way that opening up my "Scheduled Tasks" application and clicking [X] does not mean I wish to "Stop/Cancel" any/all of the scheduled tasks. Another prime example: click on a file in Windows Explorer, press the Delete key, then click the [X] on the popup that is asking for confirmation. The [X] in that case becomes an analogy for "Cancel", as is expected. This is because the box is asking for confirmation. If I right-click and choose "Properties", and then click [X], the file doesn't somehow get copied, pasted, deleted, or renamed. This is because that box is informational, and I would expect the [X] to function as a dismissal of the window.

Your analogy to the tax question is also a false one, because once again your example is one of a question being asked. No question is being asked here. A better analogy perhaps would be if you saw a window pop up on your voting terminal that said "Your vote was recorded as 'Yes' for repealing the new tax law. Click here to change your tax law vote or undo your vote," and you clicked [X] expecting, in some odd manner, that this would undo/remove your vote. I'd argue that if you clicked a button and a box appeared saying "Do you wish to vote 'Yes' on the new tax law?' and you clicked [X] that the expected behavior would be to cancel without casting any vote, but that would be expected as good UI design.

This is what baffles me about the uproar over this situation. It is misplaced. This window is not misleading if you simply read it. If you click the provided link, and there is literally no way to turn off the upgrade, that is a major issue worth arguing. If you don't believe "Install recommended updates automatically" should be a default setting for updates in Windows, I can understand arguing that fact also, of course. Personally, I think it's important that you take time to check your settings and know what your settings mean, but I can appreciate that many users either don't have the time or the knowledge level to make those sort of decisions responsibly.

But clicking an [X] on an informational box and expecting that to somehow reverse a setting behind the box? No, I don't understand that one.

Re:[X] instead of Cancel

[Agent0013]

This is not a dialog box which says "You are about to format your hard drive. Click 'Yes' to continue or 'No' to cancel." In such a case, good UI design would imply that [X] would be analogous to the cancellation of the request that was made which brought up the dialog box in the first place (presumably clicking a "format" icon or similar action). This message box is not making any such statements or asking any such questions. . . . But clicking an [X] on an informational box and expecting that to somehow reverse a setting behind the box? No, I don't understand that one.

You seriously don't see that installing a whole new operating system on your computer is very similar in nature to formatting a drive? You should go work for Microsoft then, you will fit right in. I see that the dialog for those two situations are equivalent. If it tells me I am going to format a drive and I close the window, I would be pretty upset if it went ahead with the format anyway because the window was only informing me what it was going to do, and since I didn't cancel the action with other means it continued on. Ditto for the OS installation. That is precisely why people are upset about this. It should not be a "we are notifying you of something", it should be a "we want your permission to do something" as it is a risky procedure and should only be done with full Opt-In action, not lack of Opt-Out.

Re:[X] instead of Cancel

[The New Guy 2.0]

Microsoft, by tradition, has too many ways of accomplishing the download of Windows 10. The one under discussion is "You take Windows Updates, so now Win10 is in your download queue..." effectively. You have to reschedule or say never, the [X] icon leaves things as they are and the upgrade happens.

"[X] is always safe!" is an error.

Re:[X] instead of Cancel

[The New Guy 2.0]

But clicking an [X] on an informational box and expecting that to somehow reverse a setting behind the box? No, I don't understand that one.

It's something pop-up ads taught, where a click anywhere in the window, including a false cancel button, lead to a web hit of the ad's target. Parents taught kids to always click the [X] for something they didn't want to see.... that's just wrong here.

It's a case of dumb population not understanding they accepted the download there in the past so they are upgraded by surprise.

Re:[X] instead of Cancel

[nmr_andrew]

But how exactly is this a violation of "standard Windows conventions"? Clicking a corner [X] button has always been an indication of the user's desire to dismiss the window being closed and take no further action

Exactly, the key words being "take no further action". In other words, don't change anything on my computer...

How many times do I have to tell Microsoft...

[QuietLagoon]

from TFA: Based on "customer feedback", Microsoft said it would add another notification that provided customers with "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade".

How many friggin' times do I have to tell Microsoft that I DO NOT WANT WINDOWS 10 ON MY PCs?

.
If Microsoft is this tone deaf about my desires now, what would it be like when/if I ever decide to upgrade to Windows 10, what will I lose control of then?

Re:How is Linux any better?

[Anonymous Coward]

I still feel like I was tricked or misled, though, albeit unintentionally. Years of using Debian GNU/Linux made me come to believe in and to expect an extremely high degree of reliability from Debian. I came to trust the Debian maintainers. I thought that if they included systemd, then that meant it would be as reliable as what it was replacing. As we found out, that wasn't the case for me and the many others who have suffered from problems caused by systemd that we had never experienced before.

Yes, we did type "Y" when prompted to install systemd, but what we eventually got isn't at all what we expected or wanted. It's not much different from clicking what we think is a cancel button that triggers an unwanted action.

And the false accusation of "shilling" that you just made reflects poorly on the Linux community as a whole. Do I want to be using Windows 10? No. Do I get paid for stating that I'm using Windows 10 because I had problems with Linux? No. After people like me describe the technical problems we have experienced with Linux, Linux supporters like you so often come along and attack us on a personal level. That's not the way to attract users to Linux! I never had a Windows user stoop to accusing me of being a "Linux shill" or a "Red Hat shill" when I said I used Linux instead of Windows.

Last one sucked, so the next one is free...

[The New Guy 2.0]

This is standard Microsoft behavior after a sucky project. Expression Web and FrontPage were discontinued, so their final versions were released as free. Outlook had so many mistakes that Outlook 98 was released as a free standalone download.

Now comes the headache-causing Windows 8, so 8.1 was quickly published as a fix, and Windows 10 was given to all 7/8 users for free... it's a rollback more than an upgrade, so that's why Microsoft is only charging for new computers, and there's no paid-for upgrade SKU. There shouldn't be a computer running any prior version left now.

Re:Duh

[bondsbw]

If you're not willing to switch to their new subscription-based system

Windows 10 does not require a subscription.

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[hierofalcon]

While you never have to reboot, you should reboot after new kernels are installed. Otherwise you don't get the security patches. In addition, while most other things will just work the next time the program starts with new libraries, some things like glibc upgrades are used by most everything and also really need a reboot so all running programs get the new patches. Logging out and restarting the X server will generally make sure that any update that affected the display manager will also get the new changes without a full reboot. At least you can do the reboot when it's convenient for you.

SubjectIsSubject

[p0p0]

Be as shady as you want, Microsoft. I manage my families computers and I know your tricks. My personal computers have had all the *known* telemetry and Windows 10 nag disabled, as well as my parents and siblings. My grandma got tricked by it so I set her up with Linux Mint. You can go f*** yourself, M$*.

*I think this is the first time in my life I actually used a $ in M$

What about:

[HalAtWork]

What about: () Yes, () No, () Ask me in 10 days, [] Remember my choice, followed by an OK button?

Re:Linux Mint

[chipschap]

If you run cross platform apps, and you should, Mint is a winner.

Given that Microsoft are moving their apps into the cloud, you can run Microsoft proprietary "cloud" apps on Linux too :)

As for Adobe, well, maybe one day, until then, plenty of competitors in the Raw processor arena, just none for Illustrator :( and sadly will never be even in the next 10 years.

Good point about using Linux to run M-soft cloud apps! Never thought of that (although I really don't have a need for those apps).

Adobe Illustrator? Okay, GIMP or Inkscape aren't Illustrator, and if you're a graphics professional, I get it. But for ordinary use ... and especially if you don't want to pay Adobe prices! ... there are options.

Dear Microsoft, an option is missing

[Webmoth]

This controversy would be a non issue if there was an option do not upgrade and don't bug me anymore to upgrade.

What about those which already had it installed?

[Whatsmynickname]

Based on "customer feedback", Microsoft said it would add another notification that provided customers with "an additional opportunity for cancelling the upgrade". Microsoft told the BBC it had modified the pop-up as a result of criticism: "We've added another notification that confirms the time of the scheduled upgrade and provides the customer an additional opportunity for cancelling or rescheduling the upgrade. If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed."

OK MS is now adding more boxes for cancelling a scheduled update. What about the people who already HAD their computers upgraded?
There is a way to go back through the settings, but I don't know how well that will work.

Re:Duh

[ITRambo]

True as of today. Chromebooks are coming on strong, especially with Android apps being able to run in Linux containers. Microsoft already brought Office Online to Android as apps. So, they'll also run on newer Chromebooks later this year.

STILL DON'T GET IT

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm reading this correctly they STILL don't get it. It's not 'yet another notification' that's needed, they simply need to fix the implementation of the notification as it is done now AND they appear to be continuing this poor implementation. CANCELING the notification via the use of the 'X' should be taken as 'I do not want to upgrade' ONLY if a user selects 'OK' or more clearly "Yes, I want the upgrade to proceed" should that indicate the users acceptance of the upgrade...the summary however suggests they are going to simply continue this 'nasty trick' in the extra notification...to wit

"If the customer wishes to continue with their upgrade at the designated time, they can click 'OK' or close the notifications with no further action needed."

NO, NO, NO, NO! IF the 'customer closes the notifications OTHER than selecting 'OK' than the upgrade should NOT be done', it should not be assumed that if the customer closes the notification any other way that this means 'I agree'. Given the egregious nature of this upgrade that assumption should NEVER be the default.

But what the heck, I don't expect MS to 'get it' so I'm just complaining I guess.

Re:STILL DON'T GET IT

[Anonymous Coward]

No, YOU don't 'get it'. Microsoft doesn't care.

They completely understand that you and many other people don't want to upgrade to Windows 10. They don't care what you want. It's better for them if their computers (it's not really yours anymore, is it?) are all running Windows 10. So the computers will be upgraded to Windows 10.

They learned from the antitrust lawsuit against them all those years ago. Now they have plenty of Congresscum in their pockets, and are fully protected in the U.S. from any lawsuits. By helping the NSA for all these years, Microsoft also probably has a lot of embarrassing info about European and other countries' leaders as well.

The old Slashdot had the icon for Microsoft articles be a picture of Gates with Borg headgear on. The metaphor is far more apt these days. This is Win10 of Borg, and your computer will be assimilated. Your adviews will be part of the collective, and your files will be uploaded to Microsoft.

You don't like it? They. Don't. Care.

Re: How is Linux any better?

[N!k0N]

Check out Devuan (devuan.org) ... systemd-free fork of Jessie. Still in the 1.0 beta, but it runs well for me. Community seems fairly active too.

Re:Linux Mint

[ITRambo]

Mint is not a drop in replacement for many businesses. However, you can use Office online to use MS programs on any OS.

Re:Duh

[cfalcon]

If you bought 7 or 8, you're a paying customer. Those versions both cost money. You didn't pay ME anything this month either, should I feel free to come fuck up your property? After all, you didn't pay me NOT to fuck up your property this month....

It's like they don't get that treating customers

[WillAffleckUW]

It's as if they don't get that treating long-time customers that way will just make us say "Goodbye".

I can't remember the last time I bought a Microsoft product since they started acting like nags.

On any of our many blade servers and computers.

We even replaced Microsoft Office on most of them, even though we had the licenses.

Re:Duh

[justthinkit]

I guess it is a unicode issue. This is one way around it. Sigh.

Nicely done, Microsoft

[Sax Russell 5449D29A]

Sure thing, remove the feature after all the damage has been already done. This was a calculated move, and everybody knows that. There were voices inside the company who said this was a bad idea, but execs took the Pinto route and calculated the PR damage to be less than the market share gains. Shows us just how crooked they are under all the sweet talk.

My wife was infuriated when her computer suddenly started installing Windows 10. That was the last straw for her, she decided to buy a Mac.

Re:How is Linux any better?

[belgianpainter]

Nice way to bring a totally irrelevant topic (systemd) into the conversation...

... I learned that while systemd could theoretically be removed from Debian, it was risky ...

This simply is not true....

... and took more effort than I wanted to expend.

It took almost no effort for me to remove systemd from my Debian installation. I suspect the problem is not with the OS...

Re: Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the answer involves giving money to Sony, you asked the wrong question.

Re:Duh

[Tough Love]

If you're not paying the monthly subscription fee, you're not a customer.

No, you're just another lab rat, continuously being tested to see how much pain you will endure before finally going postal and flushing the whole turd down the toilette.

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I usually shut it off when not in use, so it'll get rebooted every so often. But it's nice to to be nagged about rebooting the way Windows does whenever you make any updates. :)

Re:Duh

[Aighearach]

You can create a monopoly out of any company, just narrow how you define the market far enough.

In the old days, the purpose of talking about "desktop" wasn't to leave out laptops, or other portables, the point was to differentiate servers, workstations, and consumer desktops. Those were the three areas of computer sales.

Focusing narrowly on "desktop" as a flavor of consumer OS seems a bit silly to me.

Also, there is no perceived "lock." There is nothing at all that is platform-dependent outside of games, and even there, while gaming-on-a-PC is dominated by windows, consoles are most of the gaming market. And very few of the windows games are not available on a console. Office software, formerly an area of windows dominance, no longer requires windows; even if you're using MS Office.

It doesn't do a lot of good to just grab a chart and spam it out; think about what the implications are, and how it differs from the past. Then you can type in relevant words; if you have any insight to offer. Having no "lock-in" doesn't create a "strangle-hold." Especially when most consumer software sales are NOT for windows software. It is hilarious to narrow your categories so far that the majority of consumer software sales are excluded, and yet still to have retained the idea that the narrowed category is the significant category.

Let me put it another way: there is more commercial, proprietary software being sold on linux (android) than on windows. There are more consumer non-windows devices than windows devices, and that remains true if you only count general-purpose computers like desktops, laptops, tablets, and smart-phones. In the old days, the only way to get non-windows numbers in the majority was to include set-top boxes.

Significance has more to do with the ability to control the market than with having a chart. If they can't control the market, then they don't get any benefit from low quality free-riding consumers using their brand. They don't get benefit from supporting past products for a long time if their focus now is only on people willing to pay subscriptions.

Re: Duh

[HiThere]

Apple is no shinning light of good here. I don't place them in the same garbage can as MS, but I don't like them much either.
I'll agree that:
Because Apple sells hardware.
Because Apple doesn't have a history of absolutely rampant customer abuse.
Because Apple has motivation to keep their ecosystem good.
Because Apple has legitimate ways to make money.
Because Apple doesn't hunt down and delete your old version of Solitaire, put a special flag that doesn't let it run in its most modern OS, offer a new version of Solitaire with ads, and then offer a subscription.
but that puts too favorable a light on Apple and it's past actions. Apple is the company that I first noticed slipping a license modification in as a security update. Apple has (intentionally?) broken software that they sold to cause an upgrade to a later version. Etc. Nothing that MS hasn't done more frequently, but Apple isn't innocent.

It was the license modification that got me to remove internet access to my Apple computers and switch to Linux, so that was about 2000. Possibly a year or so later. Since then I've basically ignored them.

If you want to say MS is worse, you'll get no argument from me, but that doesn't mean that Apple is "Lawful Good".

Still Being Nasty??

[Stephen Samuel]

From the sounds of things, if you "angrily hit the (F^@king) red 'x' to close the update window a second time, you'll be scheduling an upgrade.

It appears that Microsoft hasn't learned the 25 year old lesson that 'clicking on the close box means STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING -- RIGHT NOW!

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[dbIII]

Some of the last barriers (decent OCR in my case) have fallen

One of the truly annoying things is modern OCR was developed on *nix via extensive R&D projects but unavailable as a commercial product. The postal service paid for an implementation but various patents and no desire to sell to people on *nix kept it out of the hands of the general public.

Free market my arse. Deliberate anti-capitalistic behaviour and monopoly power kept it out of our hands.

Microsoft

[colincarter]

Microsoft is now literally not taking any action or not even answering what is happening.

Re:Sadistic fucks

[gatkinso]

A rich sadistic fuck.

Its for your own profit.

[allo]

Its for your own profit. The free upgrade will end soon and microsoft doesn't want you to miss the deadline. So its for your own profit, to avoid paying for win 10. Be happy they are helping you to actually use their free upgrade!

Re:How is Linux any better?

[SadButResolved]

My 11 year old just upgraded her computer by accident hitting X cpuple days ago. Today the disk died, worked fine for 8 years, now dead. F you Microsoft for helping. Merica! Wonder if I can even install this windows 10 as I have no install media, did she invalidate my lisc for 7? sigh, fing f, f, f

Re:How is Linux any better?

[mink]

I was able to fresh install Win7 after testing a Win10 upgrade with the same license key.

Re:Linux Mint

[chipschap]

GIMP is complete shit.

Inkscape is an okay stand in for cartoon-like vector graphics. It's not as good for stuff like this, IMO. If you're a graphics professional, you probably use a Mac anyway.

A lot of people disagree with you about GIMP (and others agree). I find it useful for my needs. Same with Inkscape. But I'm not a graphics designer.

But you're right in that nearly all the graphics professionals I've known have been Mac users.

Wait for it...

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to enhance your user experience and protect your privacy, a recent update has secured your files with Microsoft's latest industry leading encryption technology. For your convenience, these files will be automatically available once you install the FREE Windows 10 upgrade which is enjoyed by hundreds of millions of users. Would you like to install the update now, or in one minute from now?

Re: Duh

[Duhavid]

"Microsoft doesn't make much money from OS updates. They never have. It's a tiny portion of their revenue."

Exactly.  This is the spur.  They want more.

"Besides, what features would be locked out if Windows were to become a subscription based model? Please do tell"

The whole operating system?  Pay your monthly subscription or you cannot use your machine.
What else would be the point?  What else would be needed?

Re:Microsoft has too much power

[NotAPK]

I've run old laptops for 5+ years after the battery could no longer hold even a 5 minutes charge. They were still extremely useful computers and were valued by the family up until the day they truly broke: screen cracked, hinge, keyboard without any spares available, or just the slow agonizing death of old-age computing.

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[illtud]

Some of the last barriers (decent OCR in my case) have fallen.

I'm interested - http://ocr4linux.com/ or a Free Software solution?

Re:Why do people getting so stupid about this?

[illtud]

...or some other commerical OCR? (sorry, didn't mean to imply that there were only those two choices)