Model X Owner Files Lemon Law Suit Against Tesla, Claims Car Is Unsafe To Drive (bgr.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from BGR: When designing the Model X, Tesla went more than a little bit overboard in trying to trick out its crossover SUV with as many bells and whistles as possible. Not only did Tesla's overly ambitious development delay the launch of the Model X, it has arguably resulted in a noticeably higher number of quality control issues than we're accustomed to seeing. Hardly a controversial point, even Tesla CEO Elon Musk has conceded that the company was far too zealous when developing the Model X. While some customers with frustrating Model X issues have noted that Tesla has been quick to fix any problems, one Model X owner from California has had enough. According to the Courthouse News Service, via Teslarati, Barrett Lyon recently filed a Lemon Law claim against Tesla, arguing that the car's problems are unfixable and that it's ultimately unsafe to drive. In addition to finding that the front door would often slam shut on his leg, Lyon's suit details a slew of other problems, including Auto Pilot problems, touch screen freezes and more. A Tesla Model S owner, on the other hand, reported that his vehicle went rogue causing an accident all by itself.

Comments

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[pellik]

I know the Model X is pretty spacey, but a whole neighborhood?

I would like a simpler electric car

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I would like a simpler electric car, without all the touchscreens and bells and whistles. Partly because it generally makes the car much easier to work on, and partly because it makes for fewer failure modes. As much as many people have been asserting that the reliability of electric cars will far exceed that of traditional ICE cars, so far it hasn't happened. The Tesla Model S comes out average or worse in most reliability studies (beaten by the more reliable ICE cars, such as the Toyota Camry or the Honda Civic). I suspect part of the reason for this is that there's simply too much stuff in the Tesla, resulting in too many failure modes. For example, I should be able to open the charging port without a functioning touchscreen. That's just silly.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[HornWumpus]

Thousands?

Let me guess. You don't wrench but felt the need to comment anyhow?

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[NormalVisual]

There are thousands of moving parts in an ICE drive train, and only a handful in an EV drive train. You will never, ever get more reliability out of more complexity (as long as all else, such as design maturity, is equivalent).

And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

Thousands? You could build the entire vehicle if your part count was thousands... 4 pistons, 8 rings, 4 conrods, 1 crank shaft, a couple of bearings and you have a 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine. If you then want to add in 1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb. For ignition, none of those parts move so those don't count. Cassette gearbox, lets assume your counting each gear independently - lets say 20 parts.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[dgatwood]

Maybe not thousands that are actually moving, but certainly hundreds if you include all the minor stuff like piston rings, valves, pump motors and splines and gaskets, bearings, various other random seals and gaskets, etc. And add in all the other stupid emissions junk like oxygen sensors, and you probably do have thousands of parts that frequently fail, but I wouldn't want to try to add them all up....

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[ShanghaiBill]

How long does the battery pack in a Tesla last, though?

Teslas have not been available long enough to wear out many batteries. But some Priuses have more than 600k miles on their original battery pack, and 200k+ is common. Battery life actually does not depend much on "miles", and more with how you treat it. If you charge it to 100%, or run it down to near 0%, and then let it sit in the hot sun in that state, that is much harder on the battery than normal use. Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%. My wife has a Tesla Model-S, and she only boosts the battery up to 100% when she is going on a long trip, and even then only an hour or so before she leaves.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[KingMotley]

Actually according to NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association), modern cars has more than 10,000 moving parts. We aren't talking about your model car.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%

And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Mechanical functionality is something industries have been pretty much on top of for 30 years. Software functionality.... not so much.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[whoever57]

Nissan has had to replace only a tiny number of batteries under their warranty.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[The Grim Reefer]

4 pistons, 8 rings, 4 conrods, 1 crank shaft, a couple of bearings and you have a 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine. If you then want to add in 1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb. For ignition, none of those parts move so those don't count.

You forgot a few. Camshaft, lifters/lash adjuster (1 lifter per valve), valves (2 or more per cylinder), push rods (one for each valve), timing gears/belts/chain, rocker arms. Then there are all of the bearings, needle rollers, valve seats, valve springs and stems.

Hydraulic lifters can be made of 10 or more parts each. Connecting rods are two pieces that are held together by two bolts to link to the crank. Then you need bearings for where the rod connects to the crank. A pin and clips, as well as a bearing to connect it to the piston head. There are really 5 rings per piston. The two top pressure rings and then a the oil ring which is two rings that are separated by a spacer.

Oil pump, water pump, fuel pump all of which have numerous moving parts. The starter is needed to start the car, along with an alternator to keep it all going and to charge the battery. The accessories are all run of of at serpentine belt and pulleys. Hell, most fuel injectors have close to twenty parts them, and you need one per cylinder.

Flywheel, clutch, throw-out bearing(standard transmission)/ flex plate, torque converter (automatic transmission), transmission. Have you ever rebuilt a transmission? I have. There are a shit load of moving parts in one.

1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb

And you've obviously never worked on a carb in your life.

Don't forget the drive shaft, universal joints, differential, half shafts, etc.

EV's don't need any of that stuff. The motor is connected to the wheel. They probably have a CV joint or something connecting the motor, but not much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a gear-head from way back and do prefer my cars to run of gas (ethanol, or nitromethane). But to claim a vehicle that does so is mechanically simple is just silly.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

Tesla recommends charging it to about 80% for daily use, and not running below 20%

And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.

Yes, because you just hop in and drive an ICE car, You never ever have to do anything. Those gauges? They are just there for obsessive comp[ulsive people In fact that one with the thermometer? Oil changes? When that light comes on it means another 100K miles. Brake fluid? Whats that?

Because in 2016 'Murrica, plugging something in overnight is just too damn hard. Not sure if you are trolling, or +5 funny.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

Thousands? You could build the entire vehicle if your part count was thousands... 4 pistons, 8 rings, 4 conrods, 1 crank shaft, a couple of bearings and you have a 4 cylinder 2 stroke engine. If you then want to add in 1 slide, 1 butterfly valve, a pulley, cam, cable and float valve and you have your carb. For ignition, none of those parts move so those don't count. Cassette gearbox, lets assume your counting each gear independently - lets say 20 parts.

Build an engine and drivetrain with only 20 parts and get back with us. Challenge accepted?

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

I thought those were sex toys.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[ClarkMills]

Our Prius gen 1 battery died last month at 312,000 km. I'm sure it's just a few dead cells that need replacing (see Youtube), worst case it will end up being a stationary battery. I'd happily buy another Prius but our deposit is down on a Tesla M3; that may never eventuate but we felt it was important to vote on desired tech with our wallet.

Note that Tesla uses Lithium (ion?) vs Prius' Nickle metal hydride so the longevity comparison isn't relevant. Also it's a lot easier to swap out the Tesla battery pack if there is ana issue (I think).

Random thought... how are all these deposits on the Tesla M3's affecting other EV/hybrid sales over the next 2 years? Will the hold off factor that I'm exhibiting be repeated by others? I suspect it will.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Alomex]

pushrods? camshaft? valves? valve springs? rocker arm? oil pump? gas pump? axles? bearings? ballbearings within? brakes? steering wheel? pedals? starter motor? windshield wipers? water pump (and components therein)? differential (and components therein)? various belts and pulleys? ...I'm getting bored.

Heck, I'm pretty sure a modern car has over 100 ball bearings alone.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

I know. The issue with the ICE is that you spend SOOO much time having maintenence, such as oil, as well as fuel. It is a pain having to pamper it.
OTOH, with tesla, you simply set a control that says to fill the battery up to 80%, and then plug-in nightly. My wife now swears at me if she is driving the highlander and has to deal with the gas stations. I can not blame her. THe amount of work and pampering that an ICE vehicle needs is ludicrous. Sadly, loads of idiots will run around screaming that it is not pampering and not work, or a waste of money, while ignoring the fact that my wife puts in a fraction of the time taking care of her tesla.
Her only issues is that we have seen the far right extremists key a tesla and others that will run up and actually kick them. Total morons.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[kimvette]

Carburetor... that's so cute, gramps! I'm just amazed that your K-car is still working. ;)

There are a lot more moving parts to an engine. There is far more than a couple bearings - your average timing chain alone is comprised of hundreds of parts (at least I hope your engine has a timing chain; timing belts are an inherently flawed design), and you forgot the valve, lifters, valve springs,(and rocker arms and pushrods if it's not OHC, which will introduce additional parts for adjusting valve lash plus additional moving parts if you're fortunate enough to have roller rocker arms), and for the items which do have roller bearings (most parts such as the crankshaft, rods, camshaft(s), etc. will be variations of sleeve bearings such as journal and thrust bearings) add in several more parts per.

Ignition parts don't move? You mentioned a carberator, so it's fair to assume that your hypothetical crapmobile has a distributor with a shaft connecting the rotor to the camshaft, you've got the points, the rotor, timing weights and springs, the vacuum advance, and more. Sure, the spark plugs, wires, and coil don't move (unless you want to be pedantic and point out that the coil winding will vibrate) but plenty of ignition components do move in older vehicles. In newer vehicles, only a couple of ignition components move (magnets for the hall effect sensor which are generally part of the crankshaft or valvetrain).

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

old prius batteries are NiMH. As such, they have low energy density, but do have long lifetime if taken care of. But note that the cars with 600K miles ran the battery until it was 0. A friend of mine has a prius that he had modified for plug-in. Each day at work, he plugs in, and each night. Now, with less than 250K miles on his car, he is at less than 50% capacity.

OTOH, Tesla appears to be long lasting. A dozen of the early MSs have hit 200K miles and they are in the 85-90% capacity. At this rate, they will likely drive them until they hit around 300-400K and then buy new batteries.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

You seem to miss the point. I was responding to a comment that you can't just simply plug it in overnight... that you need to be concerned about it daily in how you charge it. I'm not concerned about my ICE daily. I check the oil once every few weeks, that's it.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Ok no one mentioned that you could set it to 80% automatically, or I missed it. I was just picturing myself awake at 3am because I felt my battery was at 79%. Of course now I may be more stressed when I drive it because I'll hurt my battery if I use more than 60% of the capacity between 20% and 80%. When people bring up numbers such as 250 miles of driving on one charge, presumably that is 100% of the battery.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

Dropping the battery to 1-2% each day, WILL use it up quickly. Doing it occasionally, like 1x / month, and you will hardly notice it. Our MS-85 is set for 220 MPC normally. WHen we go to the mountains, we set it for 240. WHen it was new, it got 250+, but within a month or so, it drops down a couple of %. After that, it is supposed to stay at that level until around 100K miles.

And if you are driving more than 250-300 miles / day, then Tesla IS NOT FOR YOU. Not yet, anyways. Basically, you want to drive less than 1/2 of this / day. Say 125 miles or less. Of course, the average American drives less than 32 miles / day. And out here in the west, we drive around 60 miles / day. If I still lived 100 miles away from work, then a low-end MS would not be a good choice.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Basically my case has always been... I drive a small amount every day, but if I'm paying that much for a vehicle I want to be able to drive more if I want to. It just seems to be a big amount of freedom to give up.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "worked well" you mean "gas guzzling, massively polluting, poor performing, and not very reliable" then you are entirely correct.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Checking the fuel gauge when you're not in the car.. that IS a pain.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

what freedom are you giving up?

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

Checking the fuel gauge when you're not in the car.. that IS a pain.

I understand completely. Its so sad that if it is mandatory that you do this tht it is a problem that there is no technical solution to it. Go figure.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Mashiki]

Keep in mind that those 10,000 moving parts also mean the bearings on the door, the door pins, the wiper blades, wheel bearings, hinges, roller bearings for moving the seat, toggle switches and so on. Engines are for the most part, simple mechanically speaking. Same with manual transmissions which have fallen out of favor in a lot of places. Though I'm quite impressed over the last 10 years with the changes to automatics especially with the move to harmonic transaxles.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

The freedom to be able to drive long distances without having to stop 1/2 hour or more for refueling, and not having to plan your trip carefully so that the places you stop have electrical charging stations. Also I'd be concerned that the stations would be occupied when I got there causing an even longer delay.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Mashiki]

Heck, I'm pretty sure a modern car has over 100 ball bearings alone.

Closer to a thousand on your modern vehicle. Wheel bearings depending on their design can have 50 per axle. But you can build an engine with 20 moving parts, they're called wankel engines. They can even be fully air cooled, require no oil pump, and so on. There's also been a few designs like ceramic engines which can have no traditional bearings at all.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[ShanghaiBill]

I was responding to a comment that you can't just simply plug it in overnight...

Except that you can "just simply plug it in". My wife's car is preprogrammed to start charging at 2am (when electricity is cheapest), and preprogrammed to charge to 80% (200 of 240 mile range). She pulls into the garage, plugs it in, and she is done.

The only time you need to do anything special is when you are preparing for a long trip. Then you tap on the screen and slide the power to max. That gives you an extra 40 miles before you need to recharge.

Oh, and you never need to go to a gas station, there is no oil to change, no radiator fluid to check, and the brake pads don't wear out. The only maintenance is to rotate the tires every 10,000 miles. Overall, that is a lot less "pampering" than an ICE.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[sjames]

Assuming you solve all of the problems that lead to it's disuse, you're still going to go over 20 moving parts.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

I didn't realize that they were that programmable.. But while we're on the topic, I'm never worried the actual power train on my car will fail. What I am worried about is if the electronics fail. I understand that the actual electric engine is more durable, but if one of those programmable modules bite the dust I sure hope they are a lot more serviceable then they are in my ICE because then you might as well trash the vehicle in some cases.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

And add in all the other stupid emissions junk like oxygen sensors, and you probably do have thousands of parts that frequently fail, but I wouldn't want to try to add them all up....

There are only thousands of parts in the whole car. Try hundreds. It depends very much on how you count. Is an AC compressor clutch one part, or three, or five? An argument could be made for any of these things.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[ShanghaiBill]

but if I'm paying that much for a vehicle I want to be able to drive more if I want to.

You CAN drive more if you want. Charge to 100% if you want. Run it down to 1%. Just don't charge to 100% and leave the car sitting like that for a month, especially in a hot environment. That will stress the battery. But if you charge to 100% an hour before your trip (and you can preprogram that to happen, so you don't need to get up early) that is fine. Likewise, if you run it down to 1%, and then plug it in as soon as you reach your destination, that also will put very little stress on the battery.

Today's EVs are not for everyone. If you take a lot of long trips, an EV might not be the car for you. But for normal day-to-day driving, they are a lot more convenient than an ICE. For an occasional long trip, it is a bit inconvenient to stop and recharge every few hours, but if you plan ahead you can do that while you eat a meal in a nice restaurant, or go for a hike in a park along the way.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.

No way. It takes way more code to control a gasoline engine than an electric motor. Like, dramatically more.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[Anonymous Coward]

Some extra 40 miles turn a trip into a long trip you need to carefully plan ahead ? I guess that qualifies this as a +5 funny.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

Firstly - 2 stroke, so no valves, lifters, push rods, timing belts, cams, rocker arms or anything else.

Also 2 stroke air cooled has no water pump, no oil pump. And as for starter and alternator the comment was around drive train so I left them out.

As for carbs, yes I have worked on them. Many many many of them. One of the nicer things about building old vehicles is the systems are much much simpler. Go and pull a part a set of mikuni carbs for an old Yamaha 2 stroke and there aren't that many moving parts. Here - http://www.mikunipower.com/Man... there are 37 parts in the ENTIRE carb. You count how many of them are moving.

I wasn't trying to say that an ICE vehicle in its entirety is a simple device. Also modern vehicle have insane numbers of moving parts. However those aren't necessarily required to get the basics. I will also admit to using motorcycle setups.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

I did say about 40 moving parts. But here - you count the moving parts - https://louisdietvorst.files.w...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

First - Drive train was the comment. 2nd I said 2 stroke that kills valves, cams, rockers, oil pumps, water pumps (if air cooled).

   

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

Why can't people read 2 Stroke!?!?!?

Yes I used an old design concept, yes it wouldn't pass EPA now. No you probably can't buy one. It doesn't mean that you can't build an ICE with a smaller number of MOVING parts than 1000s in the drive train.

However to be fair my crap mobile was a motorcycle so I'm not comparing apples with apples eaither.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

Thousands of moving parts is probably accurate on many cars.

Take your standard ZF automatic transmission alone for instance. There are solenoids bearings and rotating clutch packs which are all available from ZF directly as separate parts you can buy, a collection of seals are usually destroyed while getting to them. You can buy overhaul kits but even a proper fluid change usually involves replacing the filters and gaskets. The fluid is even a separate part number.
When a CV joint fails, mechanics often don't replace the whole thing but will replace the outer joint and boot. Especially the case with the $400+ hollow VW/Porsche drive shafts. The grease is a separate part as are the clamps that hold the boot. The manufacturer may also recommend replacement of a cotter pin, retaining nut or bolt too.
When you do a brake job, you can replace an entire caliper but often you can also get the slide pins and seals separate. This is a very attractive option for expensive multi-piston calipers. If you elect to buy new calipers your old calipers are usually brought back to the parts store where they are sent to a re-manufacturing facility which re-hones the piston shaft and replaces the seals.
A modern cylinder head will have multiple valves per cylinder and each valve usually has a valve spring, valve seal, retainers clips etc. If you don't do your timing belt you may find yourself replacing some of these parts along with the head gasket. In many VW engines with variable valve timing, there is an adjuster which has plastic guides that rub up against the cam chain and these seem to be wear items. This chain that connects the cam shaft and its tensioners are in addition to the timing belt and it's respective tensioner components. In the BMWs with VANOS variable valve timing there there are hydraulic pistons with sealing rings around them inside that you eventually need to replace, along with the gaskets because they eventually wear and no longer build the oil pressure required for controlling the VVT. Other BMWs have this cool system called Valvetronic which makes the intake valves have completely electronically variable lift such that the the throttle body under regular operating conditions is wide open and your gas pedal instead controls the intake valve lift. Sometimes this system fails. There are hundreds of moving parts in the head alone many of which can be ordered from the dealer parts counter individually not as part of the head assembly. To get at some of these engine parts you are sometimes replacing a few dozen torque to yield bolts and gaskets.
Most engines are water cooled and have a few dozen hoses, thermostat (or two), water-pump(or two, my V6 VW has an auxiliary electric water pump that failed), maybe an expansion tank that you would replace if it's a BMW - all standard maintenance to replace. When you re-add the coolant you might need to bleed the system - I've damaged a couple brass/plastic bleed screws before they are separate parts. Maybe a couple accessory belts are replaced at some service interval. They have tension mechanisms and idler pullies that are often replaced. The alternators and starters on most cars can also be rebuilt and there are even many shops who do them specifically - when you buy a new alternator from a part store they usually take back your old one and send it to a shop to refurbish - they have bearings and voltage regulators as separate parts. Many of the electrical systems on an ICE vehicle are supported by electro-mechanical relays. Perhaps your car has a secondary air injection pump for emissions which is controlled by such a relay - maybe evap purge pump in the fuel tank, the fuel pump itself etc. etc. etc.

Most of this cruft no longer exists in an electric car and there is no equivalent. Sure you can say a typical car has an engine, transmission and axels - but it's a gross over-simplification. Electric vehicles by contrast are actually currently radically simpler.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

Take your standard ZF automatic transmission alone for instance.

Ugh, I'd rather not. I have a ZF5HP42A already.

There are solenoids bearings and rotating clutch packs which are all available from ZF directly as separate parts you can buy, a collection of seals are usually destroyed while getting to them.

A clutch pack has like twelve parts and there are only what, three of them?

The grease is a separate part

It isn't. It's a lubricant.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[GNious]

Main wiring-harness for a decent sized modern car is easily in the 100-200 piece range - yes, that's the most complex component (followed by dashboard and center-console).

Source: A decade in the automotive industry, working in US, EU, Middle East, Africa and east Asia.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

Seems we have gone to great lengths to make sure odometer readings aren't tampered with, emissions parameters aren't modified and vehicles aren't "hot wired" - all problems which are unique to ICE and the reason your worried about failed electronics... you can't simply replace a cluster module anymore... or maybe even your light control module...

Well that and your "gas pedal" is controlled by electronics and just actually tells the DME your requested torque demand and it figures out how much it should advance the ignition timing, modify the injected fuel and how much air should be let in... and if you have a turbo the charge pressure... really the engine does nothing without the electronics now....

Even your automatic transmission now days is useless without it's module sanely telling it what to do...

In an electric car though, emissions isn't an issue and there is no complex computing of optimal air/fuel mixture/fuel pressure/temperature control/torque demand through multiple analog and digital inputs while constantly modifying the same outputs in some awkward feedback loop. There is not even a shitty fuel pump. Required electronics could be reduced to be torque demand + current speed -> motor control

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

Look up BMW Valvetronic or an exploded diagram of a ZF automatic transmission.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

One interesting use of ball bearings I noticed in engines are with a spring as a one way check valve in oil passages... there are a surprising number of them used this way...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[BasilBrush]

Toyota says a complete car has about 30,000 parts. For sure, more than 1/30th of those are going to be in the engine.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/kid...

For the purpose of how complicated a car is, a part is clearly everything that is manufactured separately. Not the bundle of parts that happens to come in a pack when you order a replacement. Every nut, bolt and ball bearing is a separate part.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

http://media.photobucket.com/u...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

Main wiring-harness for a decent sized modern car is easily in the 100-200 piece range - yes, that's the most complex component (followed by dashboard and center-console).

The wiring harness will be about as complex for an EV as it is for an ICE. Also, there's way more than 200 pieces in a wiring harness; each lead, each connector, each pin is a separate piece.

Dashboards (clusters, really - a dashboard is not a part, it's an area) are fairly fiddly, but they are mostly going digital now. Sooner or later nobody will make cars with analog gauges any more. Center consoles, what do you mean? That's body work. You mean the whole center stack, with the HVAC control, stereo, and airbag module? That's many parts.

Source: over half a lifetime working on cars, disassembling them, reassembling them. I drive a 1997 A8 Quattro which I brought back from about-to-be-parted condition.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jaymemaurice]

Actually this one is better... http://www.makcotransmissionpa...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

But while we're on the topic, I'm never worried the actual power train on my car will fail. What I am worried about is if the electronics fail.

While that is a more common occurrence, I have two things to say about it. One, engines do fail mechanically. It happens all the time, and often for really stupid reasons. My 1989 Nissan had a lifetime timing chain, but it would eat guides and if you didn't replace them it would eat its way through the valve cover, too. My 1997 Audi has two lifetime chains (between intake and exhaust cams) and a 75k timing belt... and it's an interference engine. The two most common causes of catastrophic failure of this vehicle are actually #1 the transmission (needs a main pressure valve fix, and an upgraded clutch A basket) and #2 the timing belt. But it's also not uncommon for the connections to the cluster to become loose, and then the immo kills the car as soon as you start it...

Anyway, the other thing I have to say is that minor engine failure in the form of seal leakage is what often causes downstream failure. People say "eh, that's minor" and then don't fix an oil leak, and the oil runs down and destroys everything below it. Bushings, wiring, hoses... Good times.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

So many issues there. With Tesla, by end of 2016, they will have a supercharger every 200 miles of highway in America. IOW, with S X , we can charge for free and drive anywhere in America. No planning needed. Other car makers do not have that. In fact, no other EVs can go cross country without being forced to use level 2, which will mean 6 hrs or charging or more. Pretty sad. Now, with S/X, we need ~60 minutes for a full refuel. That is true. Interestingly, it only requires 20 min. To get 170 mpc, or 3/4 fill. Otoh, that is after having driven more than 4 hrs. Most ppl will fuel up, and then eat, or relax. So this works out. Finally, I am hearing that model 3 will do a full charge in 30, possibly 20, minutes.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[goose-incarnated]

And likely thousands fewer lines of code. Failure modes don't have to be hardware-related.

No way. It takes way more code to control a gasoline engine than an electric motor. Like, dramatically more.

Maybe it does, but it doesn't take more code to control an ICE than a Tesla. One ECM unit I worked on was a mere 2kb of code.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

A typical V8 engine has way more parts, let alone a very complex one.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[mysidia]

You don't have to pamper it any more than you have to pamper a normal car --- the maintenance and care it requires is just different: for example, you don't need an oil change every 2 months like you need for a Gasoline-fueled vehicle. It's the same deal with your iPhone, by the way.

The standard charge setting has the default limit of 85%, which is fine, and you could lower it to 80% if you wanted.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[thegarbz]

And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning. Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.

I hope you don't have an ICE car. The shit that needs to be done to that to keep it going is incredible. Belt changes, oil changes, filter changes. Too many things can go wrong with a large mechanical engine.

Personally I don't do any of that. I just buy a new car and then after 2 years when the engine seizes I throw it away and buy another. Maybe I should look into this Telsa thing, it may last longer if I don't look after it.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[mysidia]

Yeah.... I just did a search for EV charging stations in my city... the search result lists ONE charging station with a capacity of 1 Car ("1 Port SAE J1772 plug").

Oh yeah, and the location is a Nissan dealership....... I bet the folks there would just LOVE it if I drove over there in a Tesla and tried to ask someone in the dealership where I can charge my Tesla......

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Hognoxious]

The original claim, which has been lost in the noise, was moving parts.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Hognoxious]

I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.

You must be a millennial.

You had to get down on your knees and pray to cars made in the 70s to even get them to consider starting.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[dunkelfalke]

Are you sure you don't have to change the brake fluid every year or so? Because that stuff is hydrophilic and you don't want to have water in your braking fluid. Or does Tesla use mineral oil as brake fluid like the old Citroens?

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[The Grim Reefer]

I know you specified a 2-stroke. But the discussion was about cars, not motorcycles, lawnmowers, or weedwackers. They're just not practical for a car. The torque range is too limited, they're loud, and have pollution issues. Yes, I know that all of those can be mitigated, mostly. But you're not going to do it with a simple design like you've outlined.

So you technically could do it, but you'd have a terrible car driveability wise that would have terrible acceleration. Sure they are great on a bike. But that's light compared to a car. It's easy to get into the power band on a bike, but a car is a different thing all together.

Compared to an EV, I suppose you could go with your suggestion to eliminate the number of moving parts, but look at what else you loose. Emissions are certainly debatable. But if the power generation gets upgraded to more nuclear, solar and wind, the emissions will continue to decrease over time. Where a car with a 2-stroke engine will continue to get worse as it ages. There are no comparisons when it comes to noise levels. Granted, I love the sound of a wide open ICE, but not when I'm driving my family to the grocery store.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[sumdumass]

Every nut, bolt and ball bearing is a separate part.

I would agree with that. One point of failure in any of the components that create the unit is a pathway for the unit failure. But realistically it is more obvious than that. Use a grade 5 nut with a grade 8 bolt and you just lost the benefits of the higher strength grade bolt. Use a bad diode in an alternator and it will not charge the batteries.

Electric will be more reliable for other reasons than the number of parts too. It is the same reasons that turbine engines are more reliable. The number of friction points in the process of generating power is reduced. Piston rings aren't sliding along the cylinder walls, you don't have connecting rods or their bearings or the constant changes in force with the operation of them. In an electric motor, you have the benefits of heat management where you aren't burning chemicals and experiencing explosive forces.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[del_diablo]

From what I remember helping a mechanic on fixing a 2003ish Volkswagen, engine is a mess. From sight you can count 20-30 shell parts, things that contains things. I remember most shells we replaced parts in, those contained at the least 5 parts each.
Then you look at things like Windshield wipers, which is often 5-6 parts. And there will be 3 meters of cable to get the washer liquid to the back window.
The BMW valvetronics you talked about is also a good example. 8-9 parts.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[sumdumass]

No, what he is saying is that checking the fuel gage when fueling to stop from over fueling the vehicle and having to be concerned with running a certain amount of fuel out before refueling instead of topping the tank of whenever it is convenient is the showstopper.

It would be for me too. I am not going to delay a trip or do extra driving because i have a 40% charge and will need 70% for my activities the next day. I'm also not going to own a car that will degrade if I ignore that and just give it a full charge.

If you have the lifestyle that has that ability or the money to throw around, an electric car is for you. If not, it seems a bit like dropping a bowling ball on your feet before shopping for shoes then dealing with the feet pain from ill fitting shoes until you decide to get another pair.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[drinkypoo]

The original claim, which has been lost in the noise, was moving parts.

Yes, I recall. But I'm happy to follow the conversation. Even if EVs have just as many wiring connections as ICEs they'll have less vibration, and thus less faults...

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Two things to say:

1) We should be adamantly fighting any shift to proprietary lock-in a la Apple. That's just stupid because eventually you need the number of gas stations there are now times the number of vehicle automakers in order to come close to the same convenience.
2) So driving straight through and eating on the road is a thing of the past I guess? Sad.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Can't say I've ever had to replace a belt. Sure you have to take it in for an oil change twice a year. Give these electric cars ten years and wait until soldering joints start to crack in the electronics.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

My city has three. With nothing outside the city.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

I actually own a 2 stroke car, a saab 92 which is a 3 cylinder 2 stroke. I actually works very well. That said I can acknowledge the problems with 2 strokes, however it has more to do with pollution and efficiency then it does their suitability to moving a large mass.

My point was that you can build an ICE and power train without having 1000s of moving parts. And I stand by that. Even if you went down the path of a relatively modern 4 stroke I would expect that you are counting the moving parts of the drive train in the 100s not the 1000s.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[kimvette]

Okay so you have a Saab Sonnet with a V4? I like Saabs, but... meh. The only interest I'd have in a Sonnet is to pop the clutch rolling backwards to get the engine running backwards on an abandoned airstrip then run through all the gears with the engine running backwards. :D

But... even with a 2-stroke V4 you've missed a lot of individual components.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[ShanghaiBill]

Yes, Teslas have regenerative braking (as do hybrids), but they also have conventional brakes for when you need to stop the car quickly.

Sudden emergency stops are less than 1% of braking. So instead of lasting 40K miles, the pads last for 100*40K = 4 million miles. That is far more than most people drive in a lifetime, and far beyond the life of the car. So in practice, the brake pads never have to be replaced.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[HornWumpus]

Even there, it's still not thousands of moving parts in the engine and drivetrain. Especially with a timing belt. A true roller bearing timing chain will double the parts count of a motor. But you're still talking a few hundred parts.

The engine computer will have about as many parts as your average motor, the stereo/entertainment system will have many more. Electronics dominate parts count.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[thegarbz]

Oh I want to be there when you finish building that car and then try and open your car door. I think you left 1000s of moving parts off your list.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[thegarbz]

Hahahah you think the drive train has solder joints?

Speaking of, how's the ECU going in your car? Or do you think that ICE cars don't have solder joints? Actually there's no reason that an electric car needs to have any additional joints compared to an ICE car. But all of this is beside the point:

You don't replace your belts? Well maybe you'll be replacing the entire engine then. But you pointed out to a single part. An ICE car has a ludicrous amount of moving parts which require maintenance, significantly more so to wear out than an EV. You're not babying your car, you're killing it painfully by treating it as if it only ever needs an oil change.

Remind me not to buy a second hand car from you.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

Actually, Tesla fully agrees with you on avoiding proprietary. They gave full free access to their patents so as to avoid that . The only condition is that they not be trolled in return. So far the other car makers, except Chinese , are not taking it up. Now as to the standard, the rest of the world was developing level 2, when he was developing AND implementing his DC fast charger. The other companies then developed chademo and CSS. IOW, he had a free, open sourced charger going, when the rest decided to develop closed systems. Speaks volumes. As to distance not a problem, down the road. Tesla will make available a battery that u rent that gives 500 mpc. It is a 90 second swap. However, this is not top priority. The reason is that Tesla did 1 station in CA, and nobody used it. Everybody wanted the free charging, and to spend their money on a meal. But, once 3 is out, and possibly, the Y, Tesla will install swaps and make larger packs available . Keep in mind that with nightly charging, you do not need, nor want, a massive pack. 250-300 mpc is really a decent daily amount.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[toddestan]

The other problem with many modern ICE cars is that they use the fuel to help keep the fuel pump cool. You don't want to run them down all the way down to completely empty as that can shorten the life of the fuel pump. Though just going down to E should be fine in most cars as the gauges are calibrated to have a few gallons of fuel left when they read empty. I just wouldn't make a habit of going past that.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Hognoxious]

My point was be that electrical connections etc. wouldn't normally be counted as *moving* parts. Stuff like pistons & gears would.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[toddestan]

The Prius, at least the older models that used NiMH, attempt to keep the battery at something like 40-80% charge to maximize the life of the battery. The car will rarely charge the battery more than that or let it run down out of that range. I would imagine a plug-in mod, if it always fully charges the battery, would shorten the life of the battery unless the plug-in mod also only charges the battery to 80%.

Incidentally, this one of the reasons the batteries in the first generation Honda Insight don't last as long as the Prius, as the Insight would regularly charge the battery all the way up to 100% and also let it discharge completely. Though by doing this, the Insight was able to post some pretty impressive fuel economy numbers.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

I know how an ICE works, thank you very much. The only belt in an ICE that is critical for the engine function is the timing belt. They're made to last the life of the engine for the most part, sometimes a timing chain is used for heavy duty applications which will never go except under extreme stress. At one time you had to watch the belt for the water pump but now I believe they are electric. As for the belts for the alternator, power steering pump, power brakes, and air conditioning compressor, if they go so what? Personally I've never had one go on me in a car newer than 1980 but if they do they're pretty simple to replace. It can be done in the driveway or an hour at the shop.

Solder joints in electric components are very sensitive to temperature changes over years. I had a car with some accessory lights that only worked in the summer. Fortunately I still had a warranty, they had to replace a module under the dashboard and when all was said and done it was a $5000 job. As cars become increasingly electronics dependent I very much worry about what is to come.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[toddestan]

Other than "massively polluting", that would describe the early emissions controls put on cars in the late 70's and early 80's. The early emissions controls killed performance, made the cars use more fuel, and the emissions systems themselves were very finicky and not reliable. Even today's cars could pick up a few extra MPG and some extra performance if they didn't care about emissions (see: Volkswagon).

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[toddestan]

OTOH would the EPA even allow a 2 cycle engine in a production vehicle?

All the EPA cares about is the emissions, so if you could get a 2 cycle to be clean enough, they'd allow it. Though good luck with that.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

range anxiety is gone when you have at least 200 MPC and plenty of chargers. So many ppl grip about taking so long, but when you can get 80% in 20 minutes, for most ppl it means getting home easily on those once in a blue moon trips.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[toddestan]

The Stanley Steamer claimed to only have 13 moving parts in its engine. It also has no transmission. The simplicity of their power train was one of the Stanley Steamer's big selling points over ICE cars. Of course, the trade off was the complexity of having an on-demand, constant supply of steam to power the engine.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[HornWumpus]

My point was be that electrical connections etc. wouldn't normally be counted as *moving* parts.

Obviously never owned a ford or mazda.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[The Grim Reefer]

I actually own a 2 stroke car, a saab 92 which is a 3 cylinder 2 stroke.

And you just had to go and make me jealous. Those were cool little cars. I know a lot of people didn't like the way they looked, but I always did. I would love to own just about anything from Melkus as well.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

do you have a garage or a plug outside of your home? Then you have a charging station. We plug our tesla into a regular 120V outlet and it charges nightly.

Now, as to your location, are you in America? And are you in a city, or a town? If town, not surprised. If outside of America and Europe, also not surprised.

I am also guessing that you pulled up one of the maps for proprietary chargers.If you are in America, here is the federal map. As you can see, there are 13,000 STATIONS, with an average of around 2.5 outlets. These stations are growing at the rate of 1000 / year and accelerating.
If you drive a tesla, then here is a map of what exists, what is being built, and what is undergoing approval.

Now, what is missing is the large number of RV parks. Most every town has some form of an RV park. Nearly all will allow you to charge there.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

btw, I believe that nissan allow you to charge your tesla there.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

What map did you use? Also note that Tesla rarely puts their SCs in cities. Most of them are BETWEEN cities. After all, you are expected to charge most of the time, at home, at night.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WindBourne]

not sure why it shortened it. I thought it was interesting. My own guess is that it was simply that he doubled the amount of electricity through the batteries. But, who knows. As it is, NiMH are dead for EV and only used in hybrids.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[BasilBrush]

So where are the other 29,500 parts that Toyota say are in the average car?

Are the manufacturers right, or are you right. Hmm...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[mysidia]

After all, you are expected to charge most of the time, at home, at night.

What am I gonna do when I drain my car battery while operating my 1000 Watt mobile radio station on 20 meters HF in morse code? I mean.... I just key out that last message on the air, and then suddenly realize that I there's not enough fuel left in the battery to make the trip home; or there's some iPhone-style battery gauge calibration issue, and the Lo-Batt light comes on unexpectedly.

This is problematic if i'm in the road in town, and my car runs low on battery.... VS Gasoline..... you can get a fill-up near any populated area, and every exit off the interstate.

The above map shows the same... that there's one at a Nissan dealership 0.8 Miles away, one at a Nissan dealership 25 miles away, then a Whole Foods Market 25 Miles away, then a Nissan Dealership 33 miles away, then a BMW Dealership 35 miles away, then a BMW Dealership 38 miles away.

So a few, maybe? But not much.....

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[HornWumpus]

Small pieces of sheet metal welded together, fasteners, parts of upholstery stitched together (there are more parts in a seat than a 4 banger engine), resistors, capacitors, transistors, ICs.

People have posted exploded views of transmissions for you. About 100 parts. Engines are in the same ballpark.

False dichotomy. Either someone who has rebuilt multiple engines is right or someone who simply says 'the engine must be at least 1/30 th of the total part count' is right. Toyota hasn't said there are thousands of parts in a motor, you did.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[jackspenn]

EV owners will spend more time and money dealing with failed batteries than I'll ever spend on my car Toyota in total. I drive from Dripping Springs to Austin and pass Tesla's every day. Two on side of road with issues, both model S. I've been in Tesla Ses of various years and simple things like the stitching on the leather and console plastics seemed of less quality in comparison to my Avalon's interior by a significant amount.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[dgatwood]

The wiring harness will be about as complex for an EV as it is for an ICE.

Why would it be? An electric motor either is getting and drawing power or it isn't. There should be approximately two large power bus wires going to the electric motor, and maybe a couple of wires for an RPM encoder, if they bother putting one in, and depending on where the power switching is located, possibly a couple of control wires. By contrast an ICE design has wires from the computer to dozens of emissions control sensors, speed sensors, temperature sensors, etc., plus wires that allow the computer to control the fuel-air mixture and various aspects of engine timing, control the automatic transmission, etc., plus wires to allow the computer to pressurize the gas tank and sensors to verify that it isn't leaking, plus wires to the relay that powers the fuel pump. So I would expect the wiring harness on an EV to be dramatically simpler than the wiring harness for an ICE-based car. If it isn't, I'd be led to wonder whether the design engineers were getting kickbacks from wire manufacturers....

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

No, what he is saying is that checking the fuel gage when fueling to stop from over fueling the vehicle and having to be concerned with running a certain amount of fuel out before refueling instead of topping the tank of whenever it is convenient is the showstopper.

I want to see the specific text that says you are not supposed to charge over 80 percent. I've been searching without luck, and I suppose since you are the one with the know how about Teslas, You will have that cite.

I did however find that Tesla recommends that you keep them plugged in whenever you aren't driving. Makes sense. Apparently the Tesla knows that you are taking a trip the next day, so charges it to 100 percent, and also knows if you aren't. I wonder if it purposely drains the bttery down to 80 percent if it was qt 100.

They only information I found was regarding the charge times and how many miles per hour of charge time, and the superchargers half charge time, then how the time increases for the second half.

So anyhow, why do they say keep it at 80 percent when they say you should keep it on the charger? Seems a littl contradictory but I'm a bowling ball dropper. I am looking forward eagerly to the demand to do the 80/100 thing, and the damages that will result if a driver drives locally on a fully charged battery. Thanks in advance.

It would be for me too. I am not going to delay a trip or do extra driving because i have a 40% charge and will need 70% for my activities the next day.

What's even more amazing is that whatever bizzare battery maintenance Tesla demands cannot be handled by th echarging circuitry. Go figure

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[sumdumass]

I want to see the specific text that says you are not supposed to charge over 80 percent. I've been searching without luck, and I suppose since you are the one with the know how about Teslas, You will have that cite.

I'm not sure why you cannot follow a thread but here you go Oh, I did not make the claim and I did not say if it was correct or not, all I did was interpret plain English into something more descriptive for those who could not get it and tried to do a false equivalence.

I did however find that Tesla recommends that you keep them plugged in whenever you aren't driving. Makes sense. Apparently the Tesla knows that you are taking a trip the next day, so charges it to 100 percent, and also knows if you aren't. I wonder if it purposely drains the bttery down to 80 percent if it was qt 100.

It's all magic anyways.. Well until the magic smoke escapes. BTW, about the guy who originally posted the 80%, I have known him to be wrong on opinions a bit but rarely wrong on facts. Perhaps you should ask him about this.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm not sure why you cannot follow a thread but here you go

I can follow threads pretty well. I've just been trying to check the veracity of that statement. Not getting a lot either. Too often some guy on the internet spouts something and others lap it up from God's lips to their ears and declare it as a deal breaker?

There's no question that living with rechargeable devices is different than living with portable fuel devices. People might look at it in similar fashion to having cell/smartphones and at least in my case, a lot of rechargeable devices. Not too difficult, although the portable chargers for smartphones might indicate that some are not up to the task. Any inconvenience in plugging the car in is outweighed by not having to go to a gas station and pumping gas.

The reason I questioned the 80 percent figure versus 100 percent figure is that it doesn't seem to jibe with general battery maintenance. It won't do any harm, but the only advantage I can see is that the charge current goes down sharply as the battery approaches full charge, so the last 20 percent charges at a slower rate.

But my Li ion batteries go in at whatever state, I am at when I'm done, and they are stopped at 100 percent. I have some from 2006 ! that are still going pretty strong.

It's all magic anyways.. Well until the magic smoke escapes. BTW, about the guy who originally posted the 80%, I have known him to be wrong on opinions a bit but rarely wrong on facts. Perhaps you should ask him about this.

That's all I ask for. If this is a real thing it has to be in there in writing somewhere. And if this person is seldom wrong on the facts - well, I have no fear of being proven wrong.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[haruchai]

Nissan LEAFs have some of the worst battery packs for EVs. They had to change chemistry to cope with hot climates, like most of the southern USA and they've lost a couple class actions for loss of range of the battery packs. The LEAF is really an urban weirdmobile.

Re: I would like a simpler electric car

[haruchai]

There's definitely some impact but I've seen a lot of people who put money down on a Mod3 say that'll lease something else for the next couple years.
So the Bolt & newer Volt should do okay, not so sure about the Prius.
The VW hybrids & BEV should do alright in Europe but there does seem to be some animosity towards them in NorthAm

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[delt0r]

Lets see even your part list is very poor. I have never seen a car with less than 3 piston rings per piston and there are usually different. (bottom one is typically a bit different), so that 12 piston rings but 2 parts. Con-rods need bearings, both big and little ends. The crankshaft needs some pretty decent bearings in the block. Typically a set between every big end. all these bearings need some from of retaining system, lock pins or other such things. And who the fuck would do a 2 stroke 4 cylinder engine (for cars). Your burning oil and gas and you would be illegal in many parts of the world. So now you need timing belts and gears. Rockers, cams, cam follows and values, springs, spring clips.. We need to get oil everywhere, we need to pump the fuel. Now gearboxes... Well modern syncromesh boxes have a high part count.

We still don't have wheels, or suspension (lots of parts here), or a steering mechanism (CV joints!), breaks...

We are not talking about a go cart. And even if you are. even a go cart will still have more than a 1000 parts if your counting the motors parts.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[delt0r]

In most "western" places in the world 2 strokes would simply never meet emission standards. Even motorbikes, jetski etc are all getting pushed over to 4 stroke. You just burn too much lube in 2 stroke engines.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Harlequin80]

I have to admit I was pulling a motorcycle engine apart in my head, and a 2 stroke air cooled one at that. So 2 rings is standard, also they don't use roller bearings, the gudgen pin is a press fit machined surface. I also wasn't counting circlips and the like.

Also I have an old Saab 92 which is a 3 cylinder 2 stroke.

In the end I'm not trying to say that a modern ICE car hasn't got thousands of parts. All I was saying is that you can absolutely build an engine with a smaller number of moving parts than 1000s. In fact I still suspect that if you counted the actual moving parts in a modern engine the count would be in the 100s approaching a 1000, not 3 or 4 thousand as the OP implied.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[bentcd]

And when I ask people about EVs they say it is as simple as plugging it in at night and drive it the next morning.

Which is exactly what you do: plugging it in every day ensures you don't go below 20%, and the car itself stops charging at 80% or so by itself.

Think you for educating me otherwise. I won't ever want a car I have to pamper.

When was the last time you took your car to car spa aka gas station?

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[tlhIngan]

One ECM unit I worked on was a mere 2kb of code

Must be fairly old then, because a modern ICE is full of sensors. You have crankshaft position sensor (to determine where in the stroke cycle everything is), oxygen sensors (not just in the catalytic converter, but incoming), temperature sensors (coolant, air, etc), throttle position sensor, air flow sensor, anti-knock sensors (yes, in a lot of cars that "require" premium gas, regular works just fine), fuel injection system pressure and flow sensors, and dozens more. Then there's the performance tables - both static and dynamic that relate all the sensor data to actual performance numbers including spark advance/retard, valve advance/retard, spark power (the spark is computer controlled, and the power used is to balance plug wear with mixture needs), etc. etc. etc. And the outputs are just as numerous - spark plug (x number of cylinders), fuel injector (x number of cylinders), throttle servo, sdvance/retard valve timing group (it's usually vacuum driven so the computer activates a solenoid), and dozens more outputs including seemingly unrelated ones like alarm (if the alarm is armed, the engine gets no fuel and no spark), starter control, etc.

If you can do all that in 2kb, I'm impressed. I'm certain the performance tables are much larger than that.

Oh yeah, and limp-home mode. A mode where the engine will run to get you unstuck. It's actually a very impressive mode too - you can disable a number of cylinders and the engine will (barely) keep running. It'll be unhappy and be dog slow, but it will run.

Here's an impressive one where a 50 cal is used to shoot through cylinders. And the engine starts right up again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Well, I sure hope you're regularly taking your ICE car up to 6000 rpm at full throttle on a cold engine, I wouldn't want you to ever pamper your car at all.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[WolfWithoutAClause]

It's not that you can't take it past 80%, it's just that the battery lasts longer if you keep it at 80%; you just tell the car to do that, and it will stop charging when it hits 80%. Thing is, an 80% charge is MORE than enough for most people's daily driving.

The odd time you want 100%, you can just tell the car to charge up to full the night before.

Fast chargers also shorten the battery's life; but it's like 10% less. So the battery might last 9 years instead of 10 if you ONLY charge on fast chargers; but if you occasionally use the fast chargers, it makes no significant difference to the lifespan of the batteries.

And if you've forgotten to charge up? You just stick it on charger and wait for a little while until you have enough charge to reach the fast charger, then drive there and charge it for half an hour or so- whatever is necessary, and then go from there. It's inconvenient if you fuck up like that, but you're not going to be doubling your travel time, Tesla's charge faster than they discharge as they drive.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[fluffernutter]

Modern cars don't take long to get oil to the top of the engine. It has been well documented recently that you don't really need to warm up vehicles any more.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Ol Olsoc]

It's not that you can't take it past 80%, it's just that the battery lasts longer if you keep it at 80%; you just tell the car to do that, and it will stop charging when it hits 80%. Thing is, an 80% charge is MORE than enough for most people's daily driving.

The odd time you want 100%, you can just tell the car to charge up to full the night before.

Fast chargers also shorten the battery's life; but it's like 10% less. So the battery might last 9 years instead of 10 if you ONLY charge on fast chargers; but if you occasionally use the fast chargers, it makes no significant difference to the lifespan of the batteries.

And if you've forgotten to charge up? You just stick it on charger and wait for a little while until you have enough charge to reach the fast charger, then drive there and charge it for half an hour or so- whatever is necessary, and then go from there. It's inconvenient if you fuck up like that, but you're not going to be doubling your travel time, Tesla's charge faster than they discharge as they drive.

Couldn't agree more.

Let me float this one out there for the haters.

I really like Tesla paint jobs.........

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[Coren22]

Not being a Tesla owner, my guess is that the charging circuitry is what is doing the 80/100 thing, and you just tell it you intend to go on a long trip the next day and the charge tops up the battery overnight. Why this is somehow complicated, I cannot imagine, as I am sure that if it is needed, Tesla thought of it.

My real guess though, is sumdumass is just acting as his name implies.

Re:I would like a simpler electric car

[jmcvetta]

we have seen the far right extremists key a tesla and others that will run up and actually kick them.

??!

More detail, please.

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[jklovanc]

Tesla delivered their first production Model X in September 2015. Cumulative sales totaled 2,612 units through March 2016.

I'm here to help

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll take that dangerous un-fixable lemon of a Tesla off your hands. I'll even give you $300 for all the emotional trauma the car caused you.

Re:Translation

[TomGreenhaw]

I don't know about the Model X, but we've had our Model S for several years and there is no screen freezing problem for me to complain about. Doors, windows and seats also are well engineered and work fine so far. Ironically I think the two cupholders in the console isn't enough; Tesla didn't go out of their way at all to add lots of cupholders IMHO.

I must have low standards though - my first car was a lime green Pinto and I thought it was a great car...

Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le

[zarr]

Got pics?

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[ShanghaiBill]

I thought it hadn't yet gone into production series, so it's still prototypes.

The Model X has been out for a while. It is the Model 3 that is still being developed. The Model 3 is a much more interesting car, because it will be affordable by normal people.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Pinto is a defective design with exploding gas tanks. Cup holders don't matter when you have no arms left.

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[slew]

These parents can afford a Model X but they send their kids to public school in Chicago.

A Model X is over $100K and maybe lasts 5 years, where private school in Chicago can run you about the same (e.g., Montessori Academy of Chicago sets you back about $20K/year)... Of course the ability to spend money isn't the same as spending priorities. Hey if you can't afford both ;^)

Go figure - the quality of education can't be all that bad.

Whose education? What the parents received to make the choice or what the kids will receive in the school? ;^)
FWIW, I generally personally recommend public over private schools (even if it was affordable) except in extreme cases (e.g., genius kid, or massive gang infiltration)

Re:Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

What happened before having to prove your products are safe before putting them on the damn market? People have a certain right to safety.

Re:Why do you bring the rogue Model S thing back u

[fluffernutter]

The jury is still out on whether pressing the shift lever button twice as you exit the car can really be condidered 'F'ing U'.

Model S shortcomings

[crow]

My S has a constant center screen crashing problem. Absolutely horrible. One day I had my cell phone plugged in to charge when the screen was crashed and kept needing to be rebooted, and I noticed that the charging shut off and on every five seconds. That led to my discovering that the screen crashing problem was due to having a flash stick plugged in for listening to MP3s. Apparently having more than 8GB of music is more than the system can handle. When I reported this to the service center, they said they were already aware of the bug.

So yes, there is a screen freezing problem. It's a known bug, and Tesla needs to fix it. But the MP3 player is so horrible that most people tether their phones and play music from there instead of using flash sticks.

And I agree that more cupholders would be nice, as would more USB ports and door pockets would be nice (the X at least has them in the front).

But despite the shortcomings, it's still the most amazing vehicle ever, and I have no regrets in purchasing it.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[WindBourne]

must have been fixed. We had a USB flash with an ext2 FS on it and a good 15 gb of data on it and the screen never had issues. Since my wife is in love with slacker, I took it out.

Re: Model S shortcomings

[crow]

It does. (Currently it's Slacker in the USA, but I hear they're switching.)

However, sometimes we want to listen to our own music.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[crow]

No, it's not fixed, but your post suggests two possibilities: First, our flash stick might have less data but more separate files; I would assume that it's the number of files or directories that cause the problem. Second, our flash stick is VFAT, not EXT2; I should convert it and see if that solves the problem.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Sloppy on their part. I have worked on modern car radios. Where are their test CDS and thumb drives with 10,000 1-second mp3s? 10,000 folder? Etc.

There are companies that make test stuff, too, with media and files broken in pathological manners.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[TomGreenhaw]

Unless its easy to duplicate, it could just be a good old fashioned memory leak. With many files, the MP3 system may use enough memory to trigger the real bug elsewhere in the software stack.

I'll put 16GB of music on my 32GB (NTFS) stick and report back here later this weekend if I can.

Did you have any other kind of files on the stick? I don't think sticks draw much power, but could it be a power draw issue?

Re:Model S shortcomings

[crow]

No, no other files. It's actually a micro SD card reader, but the system shouldn't notice the difference. I don't buy real flash sticks anymore so that all my flash is in the same format.

It's not 100%, but it's pretty frequent. It may ask for a reboot 20% of the time we drive it, but then it will often take a half dozen reboots before it's happy. We've seen it report a touch screen problem immediately upon inserting the stick. If the system comes up correctly, then there's never a problem until the next time we turn on the car.

The stick we're using has 9.4GB in 2416 files in 170 directories. There are three .m3u playlist files that I believe it ignores, the rest are all .mp3.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[WindBourne]

thanx. Look forward to hearing what results you get.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[WindBourne]

uh, that is NOT how tesla operates. They look for ALL BUGS and fix them. If you report one and they can not duplicate it, they will contact owner and try to get you to bring car in to see what is going on.
Tesla is beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best car company going. They are what Rolls Royce used to be.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[WindBourne]

Please try that on a different card with Ext3 and see what happens. Then switch down to ext2. It sounds like a possible memory issue with reading dos fs.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[TomGreenhaw]

It turns out my wife has been restarting the center console occasionally - approximately twice per month. That I'd estimate is 3% of the car trips. She's the primary driver so I haven't noticed. She thinks it started with newer updates in the last year. She also says that when she does a reboot, its not necessarily frozen, but very slow with the audio controls becoming sluggish and the navigation map update delayed.

I didn't have trouble with the mp3 files, but I have not tested enough for good feedback on that.

Re:Model S shortcomings

[crow]

After switching the flash stick to ext2, we haven't had any issues. I have seen the screen occasionally get sluggish as you describe, but I think that's unrelated to the issue I was seeing. I guess the lesson here is to avoid vfat for flash sticks.

Slams the door on his own leg?

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I admit I don't know every feature of the model X, I was under the impression that you have to actually tell it to close its door, preferably AFTER you are inside. Does that mean that the owner was slamming the door on his own leg and then blaming Tesla?

Re:Slams the door on his own leg?

[WindBourne]

The doors are self closing, BUT, they actually close fairly slow. The only way that he could have that issue is if he was 90+, arthritic, and then was trying to be hit by it.

Re:Slams the door on his own leg?

[WindBourne]

why? Everybody that I know with these on-line rave about it.

Re:Slams the door on his own leg?

[delt0r]

Lots of cars outside of Tesla cars have self closing doors. Esp popular with the sliding doors in back seats of vans etc.

Re:Subject of Comment

[geekmux]

What happened before having to prove your products are safe before putting them on the damn market? People have a certain right to safety.

Tell me again how this applies to devices such as cable modems or home-grade firewalls?

Point is safety has succumbed to the demands of capitalism, which greed is always on a tight schedule of yesterday.

And this will only get worse as companies grow larger and larger and can absorb the random lawsuit or seventeen related to matters that would cost potential billions in recalls and re-design work.

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[Ol Olsoc]

It's more like comparing Apples to Tardigrades.

Tardigrades are freaking awesome! Kinda cute, and serious hardcore, can survive space conditions.

Now back to our regular story.

Seems simple give him his money back, in the exact same manner as lemon law returns from every vehicle manufacturer.

There are 150,000 cares ever year that are lemons http://www.nolo.com/legal-ency...

So what kind of idiot thinks that there will not be even 1 Tesla and that it is such a tragedy that it is front page news on Slashdot.

Suprised

[Archfeld]

I am surprised that Tesla would allow things to get to the point of needing to file a lemon lawsuit against the Tesla X. Given Elon Musk's statements regarding the Tesla model X and their willingness to fix all things I am quite surprised they just did not buy the thing back from the guy to avoid the bad publicity and the potential that a finding against them would require them to recall all of the model X cars for safety issues. Just reinforces the point that buying the bleeding edge of technology does come with potential issues.

Re:Suprised

[hyades1]

The guy probably owns a GM dealership...or gets paid by one. Or maybe Ford. ;-)

Re:Suprised

[thegarbz]

I am surprised that Tesla would allow things to get to the point of needing to file a lemon lawsuit against the Tesla X.

Scenarios:
1. Guy is an over-entitled fuckwit who has problems communicating with everyone. These are typically also the people who complain about your customer service when you go out of your way to help them.
2. Guy is a lawyer who's sue happy and just looking for a free upgrade.
3. Guy is being paid by someone to form bad publicity.

It doesn't all have to be Tesla's fault. There's very little you can do to stop someone suing you. Now there's actually a lot you can do to stop someone from winning a suit. That is the more important criteria that will come to light eventually.

Re:Suprised

[delt0r]

It is one dude. Maybe he really did get the lemon, or maybe he is just one of "those customers".

Re:Suprised

[thegarbz]

seriously you guys need to lay off the cool-aid, it's a car, made by a company, not the frikkin' second coming

Nothing coolaid about calling out an isolated case of someone being quite pissed off. I had an absolute turd of a car once too. It was mine. A real lemon. The model itself was fine and 10s of thousands of people had no problem with it.

Using statistics is not coolaid. Wake me when this reaches class-action status.

Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le

[rfengr]

Sheesh, it closed on my ankle, getting my penis wedged between door and ankle.

Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le

[sjames]

Watch this space.

Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le

[Kuruk]

http://imgur.com/E3joXpL

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[sumdumass]

Some people care more about appearances than common sense. One doesn't necessarily confer the other. It could be a work vehicle and they do not own it. It could be that they used the kids private school tuition fees to be able to afford it (through the magic of loans and having to pay it back ). It could also be that they are more concerned about their their friends or someone else views about public education or hold them themselves.

Or, they could simply own a car dealership and drive the stuff they are selling around. We had a kid in high school who drove a different car to school ever day of the week. His dad owned a dealership and thought it helped sell cars to have his inventory out in the public eyes. Or so the claim was. We just think he was avoiding purchasing the kid a car or the insurance and taxes so he let him pick from the lot and used the dealership insurance and tags which was already being paid. But the kid was scared to death of damaging the cars and was a lot more careful than the rest of us seemed to be (in hindsight ).

Re:Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

Never happened.

Blatantly false. When was the last time you bought even a toaster that wasn't made to a certain safety standard? They have to be grounded, they have to have a certain amount of protection around the elements. Houses have to be built to code, drugs are tested before going on the market.

My idea of freedom is different than yours. To me, freedom is being able to buy anything offered on the market without having to be concerned it will kill me.

Re:Translation

[TomGreenhaw]

From what I recall, the tank was positioned right by the rear bumper. In a rear end collision, the filler spout would shear off and a couple of protruding bolts would puncture the tank with the entire tank emptying gasoline out on the ground. Apparently Ford knew this could happen but decided $11 was too much to spend to correct the design error.

Thankfully, Ford today would never do that for a variety of reasons.

I still think my Pinto was great BTW. All cars are risky - just some more than others...

Re:Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

tit for tat.. All the toasters in my country are grounded. Whatever the requirements are where you are from, the fact is that they are there.

Re: Subject of Comment

[ColbyQuack]

Here in Indiana building code is more of a strongly worded recommendation. Contractors don't really risk breaking it because not following code can open you up to lawsuits; but owners can do whatever they want, and aren't even required to disclose where the violations are to future buyers.

Re: Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

So when people buy houses how do they know whether they will be standing in 5 years?

Re:Translation

[wwalker]

So, your anecdotal evidence contradicts the other person's anecdotal evidence. And? Please look up the definition of the anecdotal evidence fallacy, in case this wasn't too clear.

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[jackspenn]

It's also interesting for other reasons:

1. People paid $1000 to reserve car without really knowing what final product or cost will be.
2. There are less batteries, which, reduce the total driving range to unusable limit for many people.
3. It was called the model 3 so when you put all the Tesla models together you get s3x. Which, would be funny if I were 12.
4. And this goes to the kind of company Tesla is at heart. Tesla had 3 months of operating expenses on hand when it went out collecting $1000 deposits, which, didn't extend its lifeline beyond 3 additional months. That isn't enough to ensure Tesla survives long enough to deliver on promise. Kind of crappy move.
5. While Tesla pretends to be green, by letting people drive cars using energy from coal burning power plants, EM's other company burns huge amounts of rocket fuel to land, instead of using a "green" (or white) parachute.

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[Dogers]

3. It was called the model 3 so when you put all the Tesla models together you get s3x. Which, would be funny if I were 12.

They originally wanted the model 3 to be the model E. But put them in the order they're released in (rather than the arbitrary one you picked) and you actually get SX3, or "sexy".

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[haruchai]

1) The price has been stated for years to start at $35k and the reservation is fully refundable.
2) The minimum driving range is supposed to be 215+ miles EPA. That's more than usable for all but a very, very, very few people.
3) This is Slashdot. We're all 12.
4) They have a lot of debt but what they're doing is expensive. But they have more funds than you think. Only NetBSD has been claimed to be dying longer than Tesla.
5) About 1/3 of LEAF owners in CA have their own solar; %age for Tesla is much, much higher and lots of places don't burn much coal.
        As for SpaceX, most of the fuel for any rocket is burned on the way UP, not down and it's far, far greener to get your rocket to land than, as most do, dump it in the ocean.

Re:Subject of Comment

[delt0r]

And this will only get worse as companies grow larger..

This is just totally false. Safety in consumer products has never been safer and it is constantly get much much safer. To the point of absurdity. It is often joked that you could never be permitted to add gasoline to a consumer product these days, or get aspirin approved. Cars in particular are far safer and crash far better(more likely to survive ) than ever before.

Re: Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

So they drill into the walls in order to determine what kind of studs were used in construction, and what kind of insulation was used, etc? Inspectors can only inspect what is externally visible. You could buy a house made of 2x2s and never know it. That's the worst system ever.

Re:Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[WolfWithoutAClause]

"A Model X is over $100K and maybe lasts 5 years"

Yeah, how the fuck would you know that as a fact, given that it's only been out a year or two? Fuck you and fuck the fake crystal ball you rolled in on.

Re: Subject of Comment

[Agent0013]

And having a bunch of regulations is going to stop this how? If someone uses 2x2s to build something how does some paper with words written on it stop them from selling it to you? It doesn't.

Re: Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

Sure it does.. First of all, an engineer has to sign off on an inspection but granted they may be best buds. The building code gives you legal backing against the builder and the engineer if the situation ever comes to light, ever. That's a pretty big deterrent.

Re:Translation

[Agent0013]

There may have been design decisions that could have been better, that is for sure. But I was reading an article about a year ago that looked at the Ford Pinto and compared it to other cars of the time and found it was not really more dangerous than the others. It just got the media's attention and then the bad publicity lead to more attention on it when things did happen.

Re: Subject of Comment

[Agent0013]

Why would an engineer come inspect something that was done without a building permit and noone even knows there was work done. If you are following the laws, then you are following them. If you aren't following the building codes, then nobody knows about it and no mere words on paper change that.

Re: Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

All work done needs a building permit where I am from. If anything was closed up without having a building permit inspected, then they can ask you to open it up again; doesn't matter how permanent it is. If you buy a home without proper permits here, that is a very stupid thing to do.

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[Coren22]

5. While Tesla pretends to be green, by letting people drive cars using energy from coal burning power plants,

Even using power from coal, it puts out less CO2 and other pollutants than an equivalent gas engine.

EM's other company burns huge amounts of rocket fuel to land, instead of using a "green" (or white) parachute.

A parachute doesn't work, the empty rocket is too fragile and would collapse under that strain, which would defeat the purpose. Just watch one of the early landing videos and look how slow it is moving when it simply tips over, then explodes.

Re:Subject of Comment

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

My idea of freedom is different than yours. To me, freedom is being able to buy anything offered on the market without having to be concerned it will kill me.

So, not freedom then. Freedom would be being able to buy anything you wanted on the market, including things that were dangerous. You want a mixture of freedom and safety, which is a reasonable stance to take, but it's hardly just freedom.

Re:Subject of Comment

[fluffernutter]

It's not freedom if you have to keep looking behind your back for the person who will inevitably bite you. It's no wonder America is such a litigious society. You are practically crying out to be screwed over.

Re:Subject of Comment

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

On the contrary; freedom is meaningless without the freedom to fail. "Looking behind your back for the person who will inevitably bite you" isn't easy, fun, or particularly useful to society, but it is freedom. Again, you're arguing for some restrictions on freedom to increase safety, which can certainly be good, but that doesn't make it more free.

I'm not arguing that unadulterated freedom is good or bad. You want some freedom and some peace of mind, which in this case restricts the freedom of both yourself and others. In some circumstances, that's perfectly reasonable.

Why do you assume I'm American? Who brought America into this?

Re:"the front door would often slam shut on his le

[silentcoder]

I guess he will lose his case though. He hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[silentcoder]

>1. People paid $1000 to reserve car without really knowing what final product or cost will be.
But they can get it back if they don't like the specs as they become clearer.
>2. There are less batteries, which, reduce the total driving range to unusable limit for many people.
That doesn't follow. The range is not *only* a factor of the number of batteries. It is also influenced by the weight of the car, the storage capacity of the batteries, the efficiency of the engine, the amount of other electrical devices in the car etc. etc. etc.
It is quite possible that the model 3 - being the low-price model with less features will end up with a range close to or comparable to the model S despite having fewer batteries, simply because it has less things draining the batteries, will have access to newer battery technologies and probably weigh less. Frankly we just don't know yet.
>3. It was called the model 3 so when you put all the Tesla models together you get s3x. Which, would be funny if I were 12.
I'm 36 and I think it's funny. Not in the guffaw way it would have been 24 years ago, but certainly in a "I wonder if that was on purpose" way.
>4. And this goes to the kind of company Tesla is at heart. Tesla had 3 months of operating expenses on hand when it went out collecting $1000 deposits, which, didn't extend its lifeline beyond 3 additional months. That isn't enough to ensure Tesla survives long enough to deliver on promise. Kind of crappy move.
So ? Either they deliver the car or people get their money back. Paying a small bit upfront to be first in line helped make it more likely Tessla can deliver the car. If they can get the model 3 out the door their viable market-size expands hugely, and that could be the turn-around to make them a long-term sustainable business. Sure it's a gamble but all business is as risk, there's always a gamble and especially if you're trailblazing a new kind of product that risk goes up, the rewards go up to. If nobody thought the risk was worth taking, we would still be hunting dinner with heavy rocks.
>5. While Tesla pretends to be green, by letting people drive cars using energy from coal burning power plants,
Which is, in fact, green. It's true that coal power plants still pollute but the maths do not support the assertion that it's the same as driving a gas or diesel powered car. The reason is that the energy efficiency rate of the engines differ hugely. Even the best internal combustion engines peak at about 25%. The electrical engine in a Tessla is more than 50% efficient (highly conservative estimate - the real number is likely well over 70%). But even at 50% - it means that, per mile travelled, the Tessla charged from coal is producing barely half as much CO2 as the ICE produced to travel the same mile.

>EM's other company burns huge amounts of rocket fuel to land, instead of using a "green" (or white) parachute.
Most rocket fuels do not produce CO2. Generally this is only a factor in first stage boosters (which usually burn ethanol or kerosene). The falcon 9 burns kerosene. The main reason for this is that many other rocket fuels produce severely toxic gasses when burned. In space that's not a problem but for a launch rocket it is - since there's a bunch of people down below and you don't want to kill all your ground staff when launching. That said it's hardly a fair comparison since rocket launches are fairly infrequent events. The total CO2 ever produced by spacex was pretty much offset by the first Model-S by the third month it was driven. Landing the boosters in-tact with just parachutes is a serious logistical and engineering problem - you can't steer parachutes much and nobody want's a rocket booster landing on their roof. Using a fuel-burn to land it is more reliable and makes the landing spot highly predictable and - importantly, by making the booster reusable hugely cuts down on manufacturing costs. That includes the energy used for manufacturing. In fact the reusable boosters save far more CO2 in reduced manufacturing than they put out burning their landing fuel.

Re:Subject of Comment

[brantondaveperson]

But arguments like that simply don't work. "I want to be free to not be screwed over" - "I want to be free to screw you over" - "I want to be free of all this argumentative nonsense, you two just go and figure out who's going to screw who, and get it over with".

You get the idea. The trouble is that the word "Freedom" simply isn't defined well enough to have arguments about its merits with any nuance at all. Personally, I think that the 'freedom' to live in a safely built property, and use a safely designed toaster, far outweigh the 'freedom' to build and construct shoddy houses and incendiary toasters. But I don't think that the two uses of the word 'freedom' there had interchangeable meanings.

Re: Isn't the Model X a prototype?

[linuxgurugamer]

ummm, rocket fuel. Hydrogen & Oxygen. Two extremely common elements, available for (almost) free. Cost of it is energy to split them apart. And it doesn't require huge amounts of rocket fuel to land, that first stage is mostly empty (most of the fuel got burned during liftoff). Overall, a win since they don't need to design, build & lift parachutes, which, for somethat that size and weight, would weigh more than the fuel used.

Re:Subject of Comment

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

But even in a situation that has little to no safety regulations, you're still free to live in a safely built property with a safe toaster, and you're free to only do business with people you're fairly sure won't screw you over. What you want is a guarantee that the house you live in and the toaster you buy are safe. Forcing others to conform to your standards (of safety or whatever else) is, of course, not freedom. It can be morally justified, but it's not freedom. Freedom isn't always good or moral.