Slashdot Mirror
Norway Agrees On Banning New Sales Of Gas-Powered Cars By 2025: Report (electrek.co)
If you live in Norway, an all-electric future is likely closer than you think. The country's four leading political parties have agreed to a plan to stop selling gas-powered cars by 2025, according to a report. Electrek reports: The four main political parties, both from the right and the left, have agreed on a new energy policy that will include a ban on new gasoline-powered car sales as soon as 2025 -- making it one of the most aggressive timeline of its kind for such a policy. What's probably most remarkable here is that Norway is currently one of the world's largest Oil exporters.Tesla CEO Elon Musk was rather pleased with the announcement. He said, "Just heard that Norway will ban new sales of fuel cars in 2025. What an amazingly awesome country. You guys rock!!"
How are they going to travel in very cold days?
Who's volunteering for point?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Or is this one of those "diesel and CNG don't count as gas" sort of deals that lets them play propaganda games?
Norway will abandon gas-powered cars, probably in favor of electric cars. Of course, the electricity will come from fossil fuels burned in power plants, from a country that's one of the leading oil producers in the world. The decision makes the environmentalists happy without accomplishing anything of value.
They get to pretend they're doing something, and they have plenty of time to reverse the decision before they have to actually deal with the consequences.
I thought Gas was better than Diesel or petrol.
Is diesel that much better than gasoline, where it is permitted but gassers are not? As of now, it takes a lot of emissions technology to remove NOx and the cancer causing stuff from exhaust... so much emissions that diesels have all but lost their reputation of reliability.
Maybe if synthetic diesel is doable, where a solar or hydro plant fuels pulling CO2 from the air and making this, it would make sense... but right now, gasoline engines are pretty stable and maintenance free.
Good luck with an all electric vehicle structure without trillions of investments in beefing the electrical grid. Hell, if Elon Musk can't get a Tesla to drive I-10 from San Antonio to El Paso with all his cash, I doubt this country has the riches to build their infrastructure out, especially to handle those Arctic winters.
that aren't banned thinks it's a great idea. How about letting his cars win on value instead of legislation?
So there will be a ban on "new" gas powered cars. But what about older, used cars? I'm thinking the Norwegians will go the way of the Cubans, and develop ways to keep the older cars running as long as possible. In Havana, you can see running examples of the best that Detroit produced in the 50's. Ingenuity, duck tape, chewing gum and chicken wire keep them running. I'm guessing that the Norwegians can pull off that feat, as well.
Plus, the Norwegians are super cool, brave, daring and unafraid. What do you cook for Christmas dinner? Toss a frozen Butterball in the oven? Norwegians skewer a sheep's head on a pike in their backyards, and cook it with a flame thrower. Supposedly, the eyes of the critter taste the best.
I would not mess with those folks. In other news, the Norwegians have wisely invested their oil fortunes for future generations. Unlike some Gulf states, who build fancy hotel palaces.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
For a relatively small Nordic country, Norway have been pretty smart. When the North Sea Oil business started up, Norway taxed the profits just like the UK did, but unlike the UK, which squandered the proceeds in the 1980s and 1990s, Norway invested all their tax revenue in a Sovereign Wealth Fund (basically like an investment portfolio for the entire country). That fund is no performing so well that the per-capita tax burden in Norway is much lower than it would. Have been had Norway followed the UK's short-sighted approach.
They have excellent roads and infrastructure and the potential for cheap renewable energy. If anyone in Europe can make that happen, Norway can....
Business man praises those responsible for banning his competition. Film at 11.
So they'll buy drive diesel vehicles, assuming electric vehicles do not reach sufficient market penetration nine years (well, eight model years) from now? Not really much of an improvement.
Norway is the 10th largest oil exporter. So this is kinda like saying "I will not drive a petroleum-powered car anymore. Instead I will drive an electric car paid for by money I made selling petroleum to you so you can drive your petroleum-powered cars."
If they were really against oil as an energy source, they would stop drilling for it and selling it.
What's probably most remarkable here is that Norway is currently one of the world's largest Oil exporters.
They also have plenty of hydroelectric power, so they can basically power themselves sustainably while selling all the oil. Talk about winning the geographic lottery.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
It will be interesting to see how this works, if they pull it off at all and how much it costs them. I predict one of two things will happen:
A) It will work pretty well in Norway, and half of Slashdot will spend far too many words arguing why it can't work in their country.
B) It will completely and utterly fail in Norway, yet half of Slashdot will spend far too many words arguing why it'll definitely work in their country.
Can just a few of us agree now that however this turns out in Norway, it'll be a pretty good indication of how well it might work elsewhere?
Of course there is a third possibilty of how it might turn out:
C) They do it, at an additional cost of 40,000USD per vehicle over the vehicle's life.
If that happens, there may be somewhat reasonable debate.
Most roads in Norway are impassable 9 months out of 12, and what roads there are, are few and far between. According to Rand McNally, less than a tenth the road miles of Delaware, the smallest US state.
If its just "new petrol and diesel car sales" does that mean they will ban used car sales? Used car imports? This seems like one of those loopholes that could possibly be widely exploited if it was allowed.
The other thing I would wonder about is what the math is on electric consumption. Do they have a major electricity surplus or will they have to think about increasing electric rates or build new power generation facilities to handle the increased load?
Can just a few of us agree now that however this turns out in Norway, it'll be a pretty good indication of how well it might work elsewhere?
The major disadvantages of electric cars at this point are political - at least in the US.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I don't know about Norway but personal automobiles wouldn't work in the US without the huge amount of cost externalizing we do. That's why "clean" coal went away. The damage to people's health and well being gets picked up by the gov't and individuals instead of car companies (to say nothing of the massive infrastructure and the wars fought for cheap oil). Take that away and it's too expensive for anyone but the richest to drive ICE vehicles.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
It might work in Norway, but I wouldnt take that as granted that its a good indication of success elsewhere - here in the UK, such a decree would destroy new car ownership for a good portion of the public. Why? Because a good portion of the UKs population live in cities in housing with no offstreet parking, no guaranteed parking space onstreet and very poor public transport - to get to my local hospital from my previous house would be two bus changes and a trip time of over an hour, or 15 minutes by car.
Its just not practical to expect this type of housing to support a method of travel which requires dedicated charging spots, because then you are reliant on third party locations providing those spots. Cant charge at home, after all (typically its difficult enough to park on the same street).
So they'll be driving DIESEL cars?
Mush! Two dogs try to pull a car uphill in West Sussex]
Norway's geography and population distribution is ideally suited for hydroelectric, so they get most of their electricity that way. Whether they import or export, and their cost, depends on recent rains. During the rainy season of years with lots of rain, they have plenty of inexpensive electricity. They export a small amount of electricity during those times. During the drier months and during years with less precipitation, electricity is more scarce and more expensive. They import electricity during this time.
Powering passenger cars, but not busses, trucks, etc would require increasing electric capacity by about 30%. I don't know that they could increase hydro by that much. They would probably import much of the electricity needed for cars from neighboring countries. Because this would increase the market rate in neighboring countries, those other countries would effectively absorb some of the cost (by paying higher electric bills).
We see from this story that the political support in Norway is so much that they are REQUIRING electric cars. Not encouraging them, but requiring them. Certainly that's a HUGE political advantage, right?
Therefore, if it turns out to be a huge failure, that's not because of political opposition, but due to some other problem. So we can agree that if it fails in Norway, you'll need to reconsider your current thinking, correct?
... when Norway is not part of the EU?
Obviously Elon Musk thinks it's a bad idea.
This just in. We are going to ban pepsi in the next 5 years. Coca-Cola CEO: "Good job guys!"
Let me try restating the question for you:
Do electric cars require that politicians do even more than mandate that you must buy them? Or another rephrasing:
If electric cars can't work even even in a place where the political forces not only encourage them, but actually MANDATE that people buy them, would that not mean that the problem is something other than politics? It's really not a difficult question.
On to your misunderstanding of anti-monopoly franchise laws. Way back before you or I were born, states passed laws to deal with some problems that were happening. The laws say that an automobile manufacturer must treat dealers fairly in certain ways, and may not own the retail dealerships.
You can imagine if Coke and General Mills owned all of grocery stores it could create certain problems. Same with car retailers. This happened way before Tesla was a car company. Decades later, Tesla comes along and they want to manufacturer cars, but they don't want to follow the laws that apply to all manufacturers. There's no law anywhere forbidding Tesla dealerships. You can legally open a Tesla dealership today if you want to. It woule be legal to do so, but TESLA won't allow you to. They'd rather violate decades-old law and own all the dealerships themselves. I'm sure Coke would like to own a controlling interest in the grocery stores too, but obviously that would be bad for consumers so it's contrary to public policy.
I suspect, it being the EU, that it just means that buying a gas powered car only requires a brief trip into Sweden. Or Finland.
While I support the policy, I dislike the approach.
Democracy is when the Sovereign People makes choices, not when politicians agree in their back and offer no political choices. Such long term policy could have been settled by a referendum
Then you just need a mayor like the one we had in my city
from having some parking lots before he was mayor to parking lots everywhere
Now you add chargeable electric points in the parking lots and problem solved
So you are what happens when a pregnant woman drinks heavily?
The Merkel 4th Reich German Soviet Socialist Republic will end a few months after the Obama Regime in the USA.
Good.
China's going to need all that gas to strip mine rare earths for the batteries. And it's not like they really NEED jobs in Liberaltopia.
> Are you implying that electric cars don't do well in the cold? Because if you are, you're misinformed. Li Ion based batteries do poorly in heat, but the cold doesn't bother them anywhere near as much as the heat does. Also, Tesla basically has a cooling/heating system just for the batteries
By installing a battery heater in their California model cars, is Tesla implying that li-ion batteries don't do well in the cold? If they are, they're misinformed - or you are.
The chemists who make the batteries say that lithium-ion loses 40% of it's capacity at -4F and shouldn't be subjected to any lower temperature even when not being used.
Switching cars from gasoline to diesel isn't going to make any difference.
Capitalism is self-sustaining the same way natural populations are self-sustaining - there are booms and busts but they are self correcting.
What you think of as "race to the bottom capitalism" is really what happens when capitalism becomes too entwined with government, and forms unnatural monopolies enforced by large numbers of regulations from the state.
Capitalism has shown to work vastly longer than socialism even when the state starts to leech off the workers (as the state is won't to do). We'll be enjoying the boons of capitalism long after your socialism sputters to a halt, and you are forced to employ capitalistic upgrades to your society.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What about vehicles that run on diesel, or alcohol, or natural gas?
So they want to mandate lesser "cars" for their citizens while letting their nomenklatura drive actual cars? So far, about anything affordable to the average person trends towards golfcart size, as opposed to usable size. Of course, exotics and other vehicles meant for "betters" are untouched.
Not surprised given that it is the technocratic EU, where you accept what your "betters" give you and don't question their sins - unless you want to be smote from the Earth as an enemy of mankind.
But don't let a little truth get in the way of your narrative.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
They are doing nothing about the sales of cars powered by LNWB, (Liquified Natural Whale Blubber,) which I expect to skyrocket circa 2025... in fact, I'm on the phone with my stock-broker right now, putting out buy-orders for everything from harpoon mounts, to Waljersmelzønstöff, a chemical added to LNWB to make it easier to tell it apart by smell alone, from ooze leaking from an open-pit septic tank.
Yes, there's a big, bright beautiful future in whale blubber, and whale blubber related products in nordic countries, my good friends!
You might want to read up a little....
Had they stopped selling oil, you would them claim they are patronizing importer countries by not letting them make the "incorrect" decision to keep using oil. Conveniently, you would be able to accuse them of a moral failing no matter what choice they made.
Or maybe they recognize that in some areas it is easier to convert to non-gas infrastructure than others and that it is reasonable to convert in the easier places first while continuing to use gas-powered cars in other areas.
Airstream did a test with being towed by the Model X. While the range was reduced, it wasn't a huge amount, something like 30% reduction in range. By the time they phase out ICE vehicles, EVs should have plenty of towing capacity and even greater range.
The nice thing with electrics is they have an insane amount of torque that puts diesels to shame.
As it is, I'm taking my model S camping next week out in the middle of nowhere. While I'm not towing anything, I have no problem getting there and back. Hell, I decided to go up early and stay at a nearby tiny hotel for a night until the rest of the group arrives. I asked about a 220v outlet and they said they have a tesla charger there, and it is literally in the middle of nowhere. The closest town has a population of 500 and most of the roads in the county aren't paved. It won't even add a significant amount of time charging to reach there, and no, I don't even need to charge at the hotel.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
The "Norway’s four main political parties" are actually two major political parties two minor ones. AND it turns out the two major ones are saying that they haven't actually agreed to the press. What we are left with is: "two minor political parties want to ban pertrol and diesel cars by 2025 and two major ones are at the very least discussing it"
Being a part of the EEA, Norway is practically a part of the EU. It still has to implement EU regulations (minus the ones regarding agriculture and fishing), but doesn't get to have representatives in the EU parliament.
You are assuming you'd need to park outside your own house and charge from your own domestic supply. As it is charging points in places like motorway service stations allow you to charge your vehicle but for the owner to pay for the electricity.
Where there is a valid concern is how charging points in areas with only on street parking would be provided. It would be costly and disruptive to add charging points in the street for lots of cars and a significant maintenance issue, and even health and safety and liability concerns (kids decide to hammer nails into a cable or whatever)
I think new build houses should probably be built with an integral garage to facilitate charging which in 20 years, or whatever, when self driving cars are ubiquitous can be converted into an additional room in the house.
(post 52251585 was made in error)
So...
That is the smallest Airstream. Try hauling a 25-footer up and over the Great Divide or the Sierra.
The reduction in range is significant: imagine a 500-mile each way trip, stopping for several hours every 50 miles to recharge.
Then imagine how much an EV that could haul that bigger load for 500-miles without a 6-hour recharge every 50 miles will cost even a decade from now.
A Bugati would be cheaper maybe even a fleet of Bugatis.
My point is not that it isn't possible one day nor that I wouldn't adopt it if economical and in my budget, but that it won't be be economical for most people for many more decades that Norway is allowing.
Meantime, we'll have to compromise and use more eco-friendly fuels like bio-diesel or liquified bio-gases for the heavy towing and longer range trips.
And we need to make those mass-produced and affordable for most people.
Airstream did a test with being towed by the Model X. While the range was reduced, it wasn't a huge amount, something like 30% reduction in range. By the time they phase out ICE vehicles, EVs should have plenty of towing capacity and even greater range.
The assumption that "by the time they phase out ICE vehicles, EVs should have plenty of towing capacity and even greater range" is a HUGE assumption. Battery technology hasn't progressed much over the last decade. We have used different materials to decrease charging times, but battery capacity has changed very little. The only reason why battery life has been getting better for electronics is because we have been able to continually improve energy efficiency and shrink circuits (which made room for bigger batteries in the same form factor). I just don't see this happening for EVs.
The nice thing with electrics is they have an insane amount of torque that puts diesels to shame.
As it is, I'm taking my model S camping next week out in the middle of nowhere. While I'm not towing anything, I have no problem getting there and back. Hell, I decided to go up early and stay at a nearby tiny hotel for a night until the rest of the group arrives. I asked about a 220v outlet and they said they have a tesla charger there, and it is literally in the middle of nowhere. The closest town has a population of 500 and most of the roads in the county aren't paved. It won't even add a significant amount of time charging to reach there, and no, I don't even need to charge at the hotel.
And if the charger is broken down? It's not like a fellow camper can run to the gas station to pick up a battery for you, but they can do that with gas. You would have to call roadside assistance and they would have to send out a mobile charging truck, if such a thing exists, or tow your car to the nearest charge point. It appears that Tesla does not support charging from a portable generator, so that option is out.
Personally, I would have a lot of concerns with camping, etc. in the middle of nowhere with an EV. You wouldn't be able to be spontaneous. You would have to plan around charge stops and each stop would require significant down time.
If they can build an EV with enough range and with alternative methods of charging (i.e. solar, generator, etc.) I would be interested. I'm just being realistic that an EV has too many drawbacks in regards to camping and towing to remote areas in the US and Canada.
D) The bill didn't pass in the first place.
Shame on the submitter and the editor that let it through.
With respect, if you are going somewhere relatively remote in any sort of vehicle you have to make some sort of preparations in case it ends up completely immobilised.
What does it matter anyway? The pollution is just shifted from the tailpipe to the smokestack of the local coal power plant. Electric vehicles are more shell games just like "AGW" itself.
Part of reason Norway can be generous with social benefits is that has been a mini-OPEC in profiting off its large oil reserves. It has taxed and investing a large sovereign wealth fund. So if Norway goes all EV it just offshores its CO2 to oil consuming countries. They are not the first in doing such. The US cleaned up its air polution in part to offshoring dirty manufacturing to China, now a highly polluted country.
If it's one thing that I've learned over my life, it's that human nature doesn't change.
So, while I fully agree that you can find differences in mindset between Norway and the USA, while the center may be different, there's a core underlayment that will remain the same. And thus amount to much the same.
Though after sleeping on it, I have to stop thinking of 2025 as 'far in the future' and switch to 2050. After all, 2025 is just over 1 dual term president away...
I don't read AC A human right